Don't make this drink driving mistake!
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I have been taken to court for "IN CHARGE OF A VEHICLE" in the late 90s while having no keys of a vehicle complete joke of a law, 3 court cases later i won the police forged paperwork lied, i lost my job and wasn't able to claim compensation, the justice system is so broken.
It's not too late to act on it.
@@hannahjames3180 sadly it is the police have special laws for themselves, i have ask multiple lawyers to look at the case and all say no there is a time limit with the police.
@robertfleming7694 Don't fall into the lull of believing that.
And there all liars
i got a not guilty even though i was seen driving ,i parked up and me and my mate got out i threw the keys in a bush, the old bill stopped me and then told my mate to f**k off (mistake) they then arrested me ,upon interview i said the other bloke was driving, and said "how the hell could i be driving a car with no keys" it took 3 trials but the outcome was not guilty at magistrates!!
I heard of this happening years ago. Back in the late 90’s a truck driver was returning from the continent with a return load, that couldn’t be delivered until the start of the new week. He was “weekended” at a service area near Scotland. After having a shower, feed, and a couple of beers, he retired to the bunk, in his truck. He was woken a few hours later, by police doing a “spot check”! Result was that he was charged for being D.I.C. Thankfully his boss got involved, and not only got him a very good barrister, but the law was actually based on common sense. The case got dismissed, and the two police officers that were involved were both sacked…! That was proper justice.
If it happened in the 90s then it would have been under the same law given its the RT act 1988 😂😂
@@SW-ok8qr I don’t think law was ever in dispute, but the circumstances, and way it was applied, were obviously questionable. As many have said [ is it legal for a police officer to knock at the door of your home, and breath test you? If you know where your car keys are, then you are still “in charge”…!]
@@TheSooty1975 you stated " but the law was actually based on common sense". What did you mean by this?
@@TheSooty1975 the cops have a wide scope jn which to carry out their duties. Of course they can knock at a truck door or any other door if they wish in the course of their duties. I had them knocking on the door of my house a few weeks ago very loudly and i chose not to answer it. Not because i have done anything wrong, or have an issue with the police but merely because i was gettjng ready for bed and it didnt suit me to come down stairs.
@@SW-ok8qr what I probably should have said is that the judge/magistrate (whoever) saw common sense, and dismissed the case, obviously the police in that case had made significant mistakes that saw two of them sacked.
So I'm halfway through a bottle of wine at home, my car keys are in my possession and I'm definitively in charge of the vehicle. The likelihood that I take it into my head to drive to a venue is at least equal to that of deciding to driving home from a pub after half a bottle of wine. Fortunately my preferred drinking premises are on a direct bus route. I should think it unreasonable to prosecute simply for having my keys about me while waiting for a bus, which does not need to be pre-booked. I might after all, change my mind while waiting, but I might also run amok and attack people. Presumption of guilt before any act is hardly justice. If I step out of the door with my keys to put out the bins, it seems that I am de facto guilty of "being in charge". I might suddenly decide to drive to the late night supermarket for more wine. I might. The presumption that I will, and the power to prosecute inherent in this law, is odious.
So technically your car is in the garage, keys on a hook at home you are watching a film on TV with a glass or two of wine copper knocks you door and asks are you drinking could they then do you for drunk in charge, on face of it they can?
I was prosecuted for being found asleep in my parked van with my keys in my pocket. It was outside a very rural pub in the middle of Shropshire. There was no chance of me getting a taxi outside of that location that late, and there was no chance of me being fit or sober enough to walk the 50 minutes down the lane. Unbeknownst to me I had upset a local off duty bobby that night......... I lost my privilege to drive for 36 months and had to attend awareness courses! I didn't know this off duty copper, but apparently he is the one that witnessed me leaving the pub totally inebriated and entering my van to drive home! He quickly got on his phone. 🐍 I didn't even put the keys in the ignition! It was a VW Caravelle!!! If I was sober I would've just climbed in the back and fallen asleep! 🙄
How do you get arrested for drink driving etc .There are no police patrols, no random stops . The police only get involved if something bad happens.
Many years ago a friend of mine drove home after drinking
a pint he was followed by a police car naturally he was nervous because he been drinking and driving
He was followed home he ran indoors and straight away drunk more alcohol
The police knocked on his door to find out if been drinking
He said he had with drink in hand they could not prove if he was in charge of a vehicle whilst under the influence of alcohol because he had already taken alcohol when he arrived home
What is your view?
I believe he was followed home for random checks etc anyway he was lucky nothing came about he got away with it
Perhaps the laws have changed this happened over 30 years ago in the uk
@bobfry5267 This scenario was also running thru my head while watching the video. It’s as if the law is covering situations where everyone in the hypothetical pub for some reason-alien invasion perhaps-is forced to evacuate the pub and empty the car park. Would everyone be fit to do so? Nonetheless and ideally, one should always use common sense and not overconsume without having a plan for safely returning home.
In my younger years, I often drove myself and mates to a local Pub and would not drink. But on the odd occasion, I would drink. And then we all just walked home and left the car in the car park to pick up the ext day, This was the responsible thing to do and zero wrong with that. I challenge anybody to dispute that. If I had ever been prosecuted for this, then the law is basically stupid and unfair and not fit for purpose.
I remember doing that but to be on the safe side I always put my keys behind the bar as our local village police officer was hot on drink driving, although having said that he wouldn't prosecute for the pub scenario but would confiscate the keys and it was always difficult getting them back the next day as he covered a wide area
@@advtim1 Tosser (him, not you).
How are they going to know - you are just leaving the pub and walking home; unless they have been watching you all evening, and waiting.
The pub example is ridiculous. In my younger years I used to drive to the pub not intending to drink, start drinking, and either walk to a mates and stay there, or get a taxi home. I completely disagree with that law. It's bordering on a 'thought crime'.
Nope, the pub example is the perfect example. People do silly things whilst drunk. You've seen drunk before I take it? People have a few, 'feel fine' then drive all the time. People who do this are often over the limit. If you drink, leave the car at home. if you drive, don't drink. It's not hard. Saturday, I'm off out to see a band, I'll pick up some friends, drive to the gig, drive them home, and have a couple of 0% beers. We don't have to consume alcohol to enjoy ourselves.
@@engineeredlifeform Love that 0% Guinness just now. Even drink them at home... people who NEED to drink alcohol all the time NEED help...
@@engineeredlifeform Absolute rubbish. Why is driving to a venue and then walking home after a beer a crime? People do silly things while drunk, like shoplifting, wife-beating, or getting into fights. Do you arrest everyone in the pub because they MIGHT do those things? No.
@@engineeredlifeform Nope, the pub example is stupid and irrelevant. Nobody is ever going to go to a pub and start breathalysing anybody with a car parked outside. That is insane.
There is nothing wrong with driving somewhere, having a drink and then walking home. Charge people for what they did, not what they might do.
@@engineeredlifeform So, what if you drive to meet a friend some distance away, go to his local pub and are staying overnight. This is not theory; it is something I have done a few times. According to your ridiculous idea I am liable to be prosecuted as I drove there.
The "In charge" part seems pretty bad and could be applied in so many cases. Its the same as the police charging you for something you might do, not what you did do.
Intoxicated people don't make good decisions, would you really let someone plastered alone inside your car even without the keys?
The police don't know the law which is why they will make it up hoping you know even less of the law. They (police) are also allowed to lie to your face unlike the public.
@@ZankFappamy comment isn’t related to in charge but more the stupidity of being in a vehicle drunk at any time. However, as in charge of a vehicle has no set definition and with cars these days being able to be remote started etc. The idea of keys being part of the defence will be less then clear.
If your in a pub with the keys, you are in charge if the vehicle even though you haven't driven.
@@ZankFappa Yes you can... You are at the top of a hill, in your car drunk. You decide to let the handbrake off and coast to your house which is 1 mile away at the bottom of the hill... would that be ok?
So much so for "innocent until proven guilty" In the UK, and more other countries too, reality is - guilty, prove your innocence! UK going step further charging you for alleged intention to brake a law. You don't have to commit the crime or brake the law, if the police think you might do it, that's good enough to prosecute you! Lack of common sense and amount of nonsense in UK law is just mind boggling!
In the eye of UK law, house fly and commercial airplane are flying objects and shooting down the plain or killing a fly, bear the same consequences.
So, if you are in the pub and the keys of your car are in your pocket, you can still be charged with being in charge of a vehicle (and it wouldn't need to be parked in the road; just being in the pub car park would be enough)? That's simply an insane definition of being in charge, and I would like to see if there is any case law involving such a case. There is also the question about what powers the police would have to search you if you were in the pub to establish you have the keys upon your person. I suppose they could arrest you on suspicion.
Also, since when has it been a requirement that you have to pre-book a taxi? Is nobody allowed to change their mind in this strange world?
In charge”
Legislation does not define the concept of being “in charge” in this context. However, its meaning has been discussed in several cases. There is no hard and fast rule, but “in charge” is encompassed by two distinct classes of cases:
If the defendant was the owner or lawful possessor or had recently driven the vehicle, he would be “in charge”. The question that would be raised in his defence would be whether he had relinquished his charge (for example, whether he had put the vehicle in someone else’s charge).
If the defendant was not the owner, lawful possessor or recent driver, but was sitting in the vehicle or otherwise involved with it, the question for the court was whether he had assumed the role of being in charge of it. Usually this may involve having gained entry, but he may have manifested that intention in some other way, such as by stealing the keys of a car and demonstrating an intention to drive it.
@@geordiewishart1683 Which was why I was asking for case law. Just about the only way I could imagine somebody in a pub with the keys actually being charged with such an offence is if there was evidence he was about to drive home. Perhaps involved in an argument with somebody trying to stop him. The idea that the police are going to going to go round vetting people in a pub to see if they have their car keys is far fetched. I can imagine that they might know of somebody with a history of such things, but I'd have thought that it would make a much stronger case if they waited until he/she left the pub and headed for the car.
In any event, I would like to see reference to a single case where somebody in a pub with their car keys on them was found to be over the limit and in charge of a car.
I think this Black Belt Barrister doesn't actually properly understand law. Law is not what is written in black and white. Every breach requires context and interpretation. He seems to think that law as written is black and white and without the concept of nuance and circumstance. It's illegal to kill, but then there's self-defence or other mitigating circumstances. I feel that he just slavishly follows the written laws without realising that they cannot be enforced blindly.
The narrator is full of shit. Hes not blackbelt in every area of law 😂😂
I keep my car keys locked in my garage and the garage keys are locked in a safe and only my wife knows the combination to the safe
Hopefully that’s enough to keep me out of prison
" You may drive the car so you are guilty of an offence " I agree that is what the law says but is that not some sort of dystopian pre crime?
why would you need a prebooked taxi if you had driven to the pub and decided to get drunk? you could decide at the time, in the pub, to drink more and then get a taxi later, or walk home. assuming the car can just stay where it is, and you can collect it later when sober again.
i was also thinking about the situation where you drive to the pub, have a drink and walk home, then pick the car up the next day.
that was a common thing to do in my area when i was younger..
@@sonicforgemicif you're walking away from your car at the time, you've probably got a reasonable defence
Consider this:
"In charge”
Legislation does not define the concept of being “in charge” in this context. However, its meaning has been discussed in several cases. There is no hard and fast rule, but “in charge” is encompassed by two distinct classes of cases:
If the defendant was the owner or lawful possessor or had recently driven the vehicle, he would be “in charge”. The question that would be raised in his defence would be whether he had relinquished his charge (for example, whether he had put the vehicle in someone else’s charge).
If the defendant was not the owner, lawful possessor or recent driver, but was sitting in the vehicle or otherwise involved with it, the question for the court was whether he had assumed the role of being in charge of it. Usually this may involve having gained entry, but he may have manifested that intention in some other way, such as by stealing the keys of a car and demonstrating an intention to drive it.
I theory, if your car is parked on the road in front of your house....maybe you have no driveway......and you drink whilst in your own house, you could technically be committing an offence.
The idea you can get done for being drunk in a pub with your car in the car park is absolute lunacy - I drive to the pub all the time and get a cab back because it’s easier and cheaper than getting a cab both ways - and it’s normally easier to find someone to take me back to collect my car the next day.
The idea that not having a pre-booked cab home could be the deal breaker is ridiculous - when I don’t know what time I’m going to be leaving and I can order an Uber at anytime at about 3 mins notice - why the hell would I want to book a cab in advance?
Do people really get done for this!?
@@unclegoon347 It's even more lunacy that its illegal to be drunk in a pub, whether your car is outside or not!
If you are a member of the traveller community and are over the limit whilst asleep in your camper van, or even if you are over the limit and doing 30 mph around the local park fear not. Our fine Police will sit back and let you get on with it as they have no intention of holding you accountable to the laws the enforce on the rest of the public.
Yep, they are a f***ing joke!
Thats pretty unreal. I'm a habitual drink driver and i didn't know it! Almost every weekend I finish a day out walking with several pints. Im definitely over the limit, hence I leave the car on the road outside. I leave the pub, keys in pocket and i dont have a taxi booked because , superhuman that I am, I'm capable of walking 1.2 miles!
Guess I'd best hand myself and my licence in right now.
You evil bastard!
Cops will never know unless they know you, because they cannot associate your car with you if you just leave the pub and walk home. Just like breaking the speed limit when there are no coppers about.
I’m a Truck Driver for 40 years don’t drink but have seen on a few occasions over the years having been parked on Motorway Services overnight other drivers also parked up overnight walk to a nearby pub have a number of pints come back to their trucks get their heads down the police having been watching them to return wait a while knock them up and then test them some over the limit and done for being Drunk in charge … I’ve absolutely seen this happen !
For years I used to drive my car to my local city, go out drinking for the night and then would sleep in the boot/backseat. It wasnt until years later I found out I could get arrested for doing this.
I find it amazing that we live in a time and a place where totally normal honest people can go about their daily business, not harming anyone, and unbeknownst to them, be breaking some obscure law. Were probably all criminals by this point. The law is a joke now.
How dare you. The fact that you could, possibly, might but didn't drive whilst drunk is unacceptable. Nothing short of life is what I would expect for such a heinous and hideous crime.
I've done it, I parked near a cafe for the night for brekkie 😂
@@mrsu7353 Back in the day it was the "done" thing. It was seen as more responsible than driving home hammered. Then one Sunday morning the police changed tactics and nicked a lot. It resulted in everyone swapping keys with their mates who were parked hundreds of feet away on another row or whatever. Yes you were drunk in a vehicle but you couldn't drive it so police could do nothing.
How unbelievably stupid is the BAR, law and court to prosecute someone who is drunk, asleep, in the backseat, in their own car and on private land!! I have lost all faith in our justice system. Legal practitioners are answerable to the BAR, not to common sense. SMH
You miss the point. They were able to drive onto that bit of land, so they are equally capable of driving off it onto a public highway. But as BBB said, it's an offense with a defense. If they were clearly camping, that's a potential defense. If they'd swerved off the road onto a field, and were under their coat, probably not so much.
How unbelievably stupid are people that go out in their cars then get drunk? its the easiest thing in the world not to do. People arent forced to drink. I managed 30+ years and never once went to the pub in my car and drank to much to not be able to drive that car. Really easy.
@@engineeredlifeform Yes but generally speaking unless something is explicitly against the law it is permissible. It is not illegal to drink and drive on private land so how can they prosecute you for the possibility you might break the law in the future by driving off said private land on to public land?
The explicitly against the law isn't necessary true, the law is about the intent of the people writing it not always the exact wording. If a judge thinks the intent was X then that sets a precedent under common law until a higher judge overrules it. Basically you can't rely on google to determine if something is lawful or not@@sambadham1404
@@sambadham1404 I think you are concerning yourself with what _could_ happen at the very fringe of the law, and that almost certainly never happens, over the very real instances where drunk people are caught in cars swearing blind they haven't been driving. Stop worrying about the unlikely fringe cases, eh?
40 years ago guy was walking towards his car when he opened the door to get his coat approached by GMP constable, is this your vehicle sir? Yes it is I have just come to get my coat, well you have the keys, so I have reason to believe you are in charge of the vehicle! The guy threw the keys into the Bridgewater canal and replied well I have not got the keys now! Very pissed off police officer was not too happy!
Being in charge of a vehicle...
According yo the letter of the law, if you drive to the pub, and go get sloshed while you have the keys in your possession you are in charge of that vehicle. Even when you have called your uber and are half way home in it you are still in charge of the vehicle that you parked.
Law.
Ass.
We are now heading into territory where it will be unnecessary to actually ' drink ' to be charged for a drink/drive offfence.......
It wont be long till driving past a pub and merely thinking you'd quite fancy a quick pint will soon be a punishable offense. "If you have ten thousand regulations you destroy all respect for the law." - Winston Churchill
Indeed, what if you are in charge of the alcohol while being in charge of the car. i.e. you're sober in your house with your car parked outside, but you might drink and drive.
@@alsmith20000 Or driving home from the supermarket whilst being in charge of a 4 pack of beers you bought at the aforementioned supermarket.
@@MephitisUK as a point of note, in USA- at least some states- it is illegal to carry alcohol in the saloon of the car. I wouldn't put it past our finest MPs (joke) to try that next.
Guilty until proven innocent basically. The campervan scenario would start with you being asked for the keys. If you provide the keys or tell the police that you know where the keys are, then you are getting disqualified. I know someone that was disqualified for having the keys on him even though the car was at his house with no engine. The police are not your friends
That’s not true at all. The defence is that your friend would have to prove that their was no likeky hood of driving. You can’t drive a car with no engine. They also have to generally evidence attempts to start the car,
I think your friend is telling you porkies.
I knew a guy who rolled an engineless car from the front to the back of his house (steering it down a slope ) he was 15 with no licence and was successfully charged with operating a motor vehicle whilst unlicensed even though it had no motor.(u.k.)
@@ridbanner1407 yes - there is case law, from the 60s I believe, where pushing a broken down car was deemed to be enough to get a conviction. Of course the actual statutes have changed since then but interesting in any case.
@@ridbanner1407yes because that is classed as driving. I haven’t even researched this recently but from memory driving a car is being in control of steering and propulsion. It is different than being in charge. Anyone is technically in charge all the time by having keys in pocket and access to a car but the police can’t and don’t charge a person for being in charge unless they can evidence clear attempts to drive it. They would have to put in their statements I saw the person fumbling around trying to put the keys in ignition etc.
Using a car downhill without an engine is still classed as driving but for the purposes of being in charge you aren’t going to be charged for being drunk in charge of a car with no engine unless you were actively seen making attempts to use it as a car.
@@ridbanner1407my example was slightly wrong then as technically you can drive a car with no engine in your example by pushing it down a hill. But in general terms your defence would be that you sat in a car with no engine as you were locked out your house. They would not charge you in this scenario for being drunk in charge.
If the police came to a caravan park, and tried to arrest anyone for being in charge of a camper van under the influence late in the evening, I would expect any judge to laugh them out of court, and question why they were in the caravan park at all ... and suspect them of harassment unless they had been called there for another reason
I normally would agree with you but it really depends on which judge you get nowadays.
It would be private land too
You must be new here.
"Modern policing" is trying to find minor crimes, technicalities, or even "non-crime hate incidents" to hassle people over, in order to avoid having to deal with grooming gangs, stabbings and acid attackers (yes despite the media making a big deal of this Abdul Ezedi, there are in fact on average 2 acid attacks, per day, every day)
@@arcadeuk I totally agree with all that, sadly there's much evidence to prove that this is the case. Them going after two women sitting on a park bench during the convid restrictions for example were a new low, no wonder any trust is gone now.
Yeah but what about a layby or maybe they stopped at a pub and stayed overnight in the carpark after having a few drinks?
How is the average person supposed to understand or know about all the subtleties surrounding laws like this? 🤯
Here is a scenario then. I am back home , having walked to a neighbours house where I had a a few drinks. The police knock on my door due to some idiots loitering around causing problems. The police smell alcohol on my breath and notice I have my keys on my person (the car keys are attached to my house keys). I am then charged for being in charge of my car! Theoretically I could jump into the car and drive off somewhere, clearly a logical conclusion.
I fail to see how any arguments surrounding having a key on your person and being near to your car can constitute a legitimate fine. This sort of BS destroys my faith in the judicial system and the police.
Addendum… Just thought, where is the presumption of innocence in all of this. It looks more like the police are judge, jury and executioner in this. Few people have the means to argue or defend themselves against such a fine.
A chap drove to our village pub on his way home. He had more than he intended so knew he couldn’t drive. He gave his keys to the landlord, who locked the pub for the night. He was asleep on the back seat of his car, plod drove by, and arrested him for drunk in charge. He did the responsible thing. He could have driven home and probably got away with it. He may have killed somebody though. Damned if you do……
I once said to a police man friend that the law was an ass. He said no, but the application of the law was an ass.
That's crazy. You'd think giving the keys to the landlord would have been enough. Maybe the officers thought they were going to hotwire their own car. Idiots
I remember years ago watching a fly on the wall type police series on the telly. A guy was in a rough old dead end side street and asleep behind the wheel with his keys in his pocket. The cops arrested him for being drunk while in charge of a car, or words to that effect. He got taken to court, was given a big fine and banned from driving for a couple of years.
Yeah but in the pub thing, if you get arrested for having car keys in your pocket, isn't it on the police to prove you were going to drive after boozing rather than for you to have to defend you weren't? Only because someone thinks you're going to do something, doesn't mean that you are.
So what the law seems to be saying is, if you own a vehicle and the keys are within your reach and you have had a drink you can be charged.
Not quite. your description would cover people at home, and I don't think there's been a case where the Police randomly knock on a door to see if a vehicle owner has been drinking. If you are out in a public place, or inside the vehicle, that changes things. Please don't extrapolate to the ridiculous.
Only if they find out. If they go on your property, tell them to go forth and multiply.
I believe it only applies if you are in a place that can be regarded as a road which can be quite hard to decipher as mentioned in the video what is classed as a destination and what is classed as a road
As the late great man Sean Lock once said,,,
I only drink fosters while driving.... It's a driving beer.....
Lol you'd be bloated before you got near the limit:)
So this is basically the same as pre-crime in Minority Report. Don't go for a walk while drunk with car keys in your coat pocket because the police know what you're going to do before you do and will charge you for it.
The law is ridiculous. If you're drunk at home with keys in your pocket and car on the drive, you would claim I had no intention of driving. If you're in a pub and claim I was going to phone a cab when finished, all of a sudden you are guilty, because you could have driven. The law's sole intention is to convict as many as possible with no regard for intention or innocence
That pub example is a case of "guilty until proven innocent" that law needs changing
My brother and a friend were drunk in the car on a really cold night while they waited for a taxi. Someone had seen them getting into the car so called the police.
Coppers pulled up and started to question them. Luckily they’d put the car keys under the car so the officer left them alone. Taxi arrived a few minutes later and as they left the road the police car was on the corner waiting for them.
Apparently they've been known to do that with newly banned drivers. They'll wait up the road early on a week day to see if you drive to work.
@@jezfrench9435the police don’t get daily updates on who is disqualified.
They get intelligence which is given out at briefings at the start of a shift with information that may suggest a disqualified driver is still driving etc so they will keep an eye out etc.
The intel comes from either the public or other officers
Sounds like good policing to me.
@@QatarVegan yeah it was, in all regards.
So I'm asthmatic and came out of my flat to get my inhaler from my vehicle when police approached me and gave me a breath test and arrested me for being in control of a vehicle while under the influence I got off and wasn't charged based off my dashcam footage.
this is like being charged for murder whilst in a restaurant having a steak knife and fork in your hands when other people are present, they could be potential victims when you're eating your meal!!.
I like this law. It must be the same as, "I am standing near a gun so I am going to use it because it's there." So I am a murderer by default. Good analysis. I will stay away from my keys if I have a drink.
I was parked up waiting for my wife yesterday. Straight in front was a side street between M&S and another shop which is controlled with traffic lights to my left. A fast response vehicle glided up to the give way lines and the traffic light was red.
The police driver was texting on his phone while looking looking at the phone, as he stopped. He looked up and saw me looking at him. His face was a picture.
Location: Behind M&S Sunderland - Sy Mary's car park to my right.
TV showed undercover solo copper with hand held radio, walkie talkie yakking away.
Probably on tinder
@@kysersoze3632Or Grindr
Someone close to me illuminated his phone whilst stationary at traffic lights (a police officer appeared from behind a pub). 6 points. A few weeks later, I also saw a woman police officer crawling in traffic, looking at her own legs. I realised she had her phone on the driver's seat between her legs. I am on the lookout now for these scenarios to film and report. I can't get those points removed, but I hope to send a message to Surrey Police that nicking people for illuminating a phone in stationary cars isn't what we want them to do when so many people actually drive around holding their phones. (If the law were 6 points for moving and 3 points for stationary, it wouldn't be so bad.) Finally, I wrote to the Crime Commissioner asking her for the stats on the number of people in Surrey killed or seriously injured by a stationary car at traffic lights. She did reply, didn't answer my question, but reiterated her commitment to #Fatal5. Needless to say, she won't be getting my vote next time.
@@SterlingMess Demand an FIO from the police and use the ICO if necessary
My husband is always the designated driver, but he often asks me to put the keys and his wallet in my handbag. Could I be charged if I'm over the limit but never intended to drive? Does simply holding the keys mean you're in charge of the vehicle?
Regarding caravans and campers, in police training school we were taught that when you park a camper or caravan it then becomes a dwelling and is subject to different rules for searches etc
I can see so many opportunities for corrupt and abusive police to use this law to harass someone they just don't like. Based on the wording, having a beer in your own home while the keys are in your pocket, or within reach, is a criminal offense! It, effectively, makes just being in possession of your car keys into a crime!
I agree, for example my car is parked on the street let’s say I’ve had a drink and need to fetch my phone charger from the cat I’ve done this countless times. An overly zealous police officer could argue I was about to drive even though I had no intention of. How can you prove your thoughts you can’t.
Where I live there's a pub 100 yards from me, it's frequented by off duty police, anyone else who drinks in there, are allowed to drink and drive too , I used to be in a relationship with an ex policewoman, and she said, first day on patrol, she was told to let anyone drink driving from the pub go on , don't prosecute them , one rule for me, but not for thee..
Drunk in charge is a.what if. Its not a complete crime. Same as these ridiculous so called hate incidents. We are now obsessed with the what if
It is a strict liability nowadays because when drink driving laws started coming in people used every excuse under the sun to explain their behavior and many got off. But as the drink driving accident statistics kept mounting things became much stricter.
it should have always been a strict liability drink driving is very dangerous and causes on average around 3000 deaths or life changing injuries per year and those who do it in my opinion should be permanently banned from driving if they repeatedly offend
Someone made an interesting comment earlier; what if you are at home, have sampled a few glasses of wine, you're over the limit and still in charge of your car, do the keys need to be in your pocket, nearby, or simply available for you to be guilty ?
If you are in your house, car keys in pocket or not, you are not deemed to be in charge of your vehicle.
@@devally2432 Why not? Nothing is stopping me from walking 10 paces out the front door and driving under the influence. I am just as "in control" of the vehicle at home as I am anywhere else. If I have access to the keys and I know where the car is, I am in control of the vehicle according to the letter of the law. The fact that no other evidence of intention or conspiracy to commit is necessary to secure a conviction under this section of the Road Traffic Act is insane, regardless of how often it's enforced the standard of evidence should simply be not be that low. Any bored police officer with a grudge could ruin someone's livihood over a thought crime.
This would depend on where you are when the police talk to you because if you are in your home and have the car keys in your house then the cops cannot say you are in charge of the vehicle as you are in your house but obviously if you were to walk out of your house and sit in your car whilst drunk you would be charged with being in control of the vehicle
6:39 This law is rediculous as if you get charged with being in charge you might as well drive.I know situations where people sleep it off in an pub car park or beach,done it myself.
"Yeah, just f*** it... " 😂
I guess that's what overpolicing eventually leads to... 🙄
A few years ago, I had a brand new Subaru, I was driving on my way home when i got a call from a mate, so diverted to the pub, ended up with a few beers and left it on the street and got a taxi home, after I left a fight broke out which spilled into the street onto my car causing damage to the headlight which cost £700 to replace the fighters were known, the CCTV was clear and present, the police didnt even want to know..!
For the mobile phone thing, I'd argue that a Taxi rank is a parking space, reserved for taxis. You don't get aboard a taxi as it dries along the road at 30mph, you get on when it's parked... at a taxi rank. I know as a bus driver, to allow passengers on or off, being stationary isn't good enough. you must apply the parking brake. I imagine it's the same for taxi's, and I'd argue that if the parking brake qualifies as safe enough for people to step aboard the vehicle, I'd argue it's safe enough for the driver to use a phone.
'The law is an ass' - Henry Ford
I often used to drive to the pub and collect my car the next day and so did my friends. None of us would ever drink drive. What a ridiculous example.
when i was young we used to drive to the pub all the time. leave the car there and pick it up in the morning. Always walked home or went somewhere else.
I went to meet my mates at the pub in Edinburgh, many years ago and I drove down with no thought of drinking, Obviously I had the strength of a wet digestive biscuit and got absolutely smashed. As we were leaving I remembered that the area wasn't the best place to leave the car but it was too late to do anything about it. One of may mates said not to worry he would sort it out, so he took my keys off me and approached two police officers and subsequently handed the keys over to the police officer. I thought here we go I'm getting done as the officer called me over. He asked me where I lived and took my details and telephone number. He then said 'we will drop it off tomorrow morning at your home' I was taken back and my mate told me If I had went to them with the keys in my hand I would have been nicked! Ahh the good old days!
When I was running my touring circus, parking up overnight I usually had a beer, now when parked up the vehicle starter batteries were always unplugged so the vehicle could not be started, I always wondered how I would have stood if the police had asked and could smell a beer on my breath.
This would have been in a Live in vehicle.
The kids would have been in bed and the TV / laptop on.
Not a defence i'm afraid, removing battery. Handbrake can be let off and coast down hill...
@@smitcher Not if it's an air braked HGV, you need to run the engine to build up the pressure necessary to release the brakes. The only way to release them without pressure is to climb under the rear axle and 'wind' them off or pressurize the system with a compressor.
@@MephitisUK "I'm arresting you on suspicion of being drunk and within 90 yards of an air compressor, you criminal scum"
In the UK it is also illegal to ride a bicycle whilst under the influence of drink or drugs.
This is how so many HGV drivers have been prosecuted for drink driving. Cop knocks on cab door between 11-12pm, wakes the driver up, driver opens the curtain, sees it's a cop, opens the door, cop sees keys in ignition (often required for radio etc & was certainly required for car phones back in the day), cop breathalises the driver, they blow just over, still blow just over at the station, bye bye licence & job, despite not legally being allowed to drive for at least another 6+hrs, by which time, they'd be quite under limit.
The only time a police officer would bang on a drivers cab at night is if there was a complaint of anti social behaviour by said driver.
And besides that, you are not under any obligation to open your cab door to a cop at night.
@@devally2432 I guess you weren't driving trucks through the '70s - '90s, possibly even into the '00s. Witnessed it myself very frequently. Correct no obligation, but if a copper is knocking on your cab door, waking you up, you're opening the window/door to ask them what's up, with your first thought someone has slashed your curtains or seen syphoning your diesel.
@@asp383 If you are in any motor vehicle with the keys in the ignition and you are drunk you will be charged with being in charge of that vehicle if its proven you are the driver of that vehcile if you are the only person in that vehicle then its clear you are the driver of the vehicle and even if you try to argue you wont drive for another 6 hours that doesn't stop you from doing it so the police will take action based on the time they breatheralise you not based on what your level may be in 6 hours the law is very clear and i see many people overreacting to this by claiming many different scenarios that hasn't actually happened
@@bentaylor6995 Ooooh i love the minority report there... so you don't see an issue with the laws... unless the engine has been running it is literally a minority report to sit there and say "Oh your keys are in the ignition so you must be driving." as the chap said, many vehicles require the keys in the ignition and atleast turned to accessories for things like the radio to work or the heater in the cab, the mere fact you see no issue with this is horrifying, if you are asleep in the drivers seat with keys in the ignition i agree very wrong and you should be charged, but if you are sat in the back with either the keys in your pocket or in the ignition you should not be charged for a crime you HAVEN'T physically committed.
So that means when i grab a taxi to go out drinking, my house keys are still attached to my car keys in my pocket, you wouldn't have zero issue with me heading home and being pulled aside and breathalysed even though i never set foot in that vehicle?
Dystopian laws
One of the problems with drinking and driving is that you don't always know. I wasn't a big drinker when I turned 21, but I had many chances to observe my Aussie father sometimes drinking a wee bit too much, and perhaps driving when he shouldn't. (Never had an accident, or arrest.) And I made myself a promise that "IF" I ever did, I'd quit. One day after work, when I was 24, (in 1984) we had a gathering and an associates home, and my friends were really determined to "bend my halo", and provided many (strong) drinks, which I drank, then passed out where I was. I woke around noon, and realized I had to be at work in an hour and cleaned myself up and drove to work. Once I got to work I spoke with someone who'd been at the party about how hard it was to drive to work, and they responded, "you know how much you drank? You're probably still drunk!" (They were also impressed how much I drank… thanks Aussie dad and Canadian mum, I guess.) And so right then, almost 40 years ago, I quit. The important point I wanted to make is, I didn't know I was drunk. If I'd realized it, as I drove, I hope I would've been smart enough to pull over and walk to a pay phone. (Again, this was 1984.)
As always thank you so very much for the videos.
Your body metabolizes about one standard drink per hour.
@@DovidM well, "to bend my halo", as near as I can recall the first drink was a bicardi and coke - the filled a tumbler with 95% Bicardi and 4% Coca-cola. Then there was a similar Vodka and Orange Juice (95%/4%). And then there were several more... all which I downed in one quick gulp. It was insane how many drinks I had, in one gulp, in a short time.* Then I probably spent about 4 hours passed out.
* oh, and I also offered to fight an ex-green-beret and five year Karate Champion (I'd seen his trophy); but he was a good friend, and just laughed . Years later when he had a lovely teen daughter, I felt sorry for any prospective boy friends. (I'm sure having having an ex-green beret father is about as bad for boy friends as having an ex-Marine D.I., like my wife's dad.)
So mobile home owners, don’t have a drink in it whilst you’re parked up for the night in a lay-by
The law should be there to stop those who are influenced by drink risking the lives of others on the road. I don't think it should be framed to catch the unwary who have not intention of doing so.
There are times, in the past, where I have driven to the pub and had drinks. The car stayed in the car park until later the following day. Obviously, I had the keys. If I was prosecuted for that it would be utterly ridiculous as I didn't touch the car until the following day.
What about if you were to drive to a party with the keys in your possession but you planned on staying over or getting an Uber for example? Could you still be prosecuted then? How can you satisfy the Police that you are not going to drive?
You can't. The police are paid to make as much as possible every action by the public look nefarious, so that they can charge you with "something". Then you have to pay someone else to argue your point not with common sense or reason, but by using outdated, confusing and often morally fuzzy language to satisfy a condition that often seems illogical to the point.
The justice system.......
I have 2 questions.
1. For the "in charge" aspect: how would you "sleep it off", if you've had a few drinks? Basically sleep outside the car? You could still easily get into the car and drive off, hence you would still be guilty of the "in charge" offence. Sleep away from the car? How far away? Half a mile? Or sleep inside the car (not in the driver's seat) and not have the car key on your person (not in your pocket, not in your bag)? Where would you keep the car key? In the glove box? In the boot? Outside the car? (that would be stupid)
2. For the "unfit" aspect: what is the definition of "unfit"?
Imagine coppers running in the pub and arresting everyone who has car keys on them 😂
I have occasionally left my car in the pub car park and walked home.
However, I have always asked the licensee (not just bar staff) if I can in advance. Using the car park outside of trading hours without seeking permission might be trespass and is certainly bad manners - but it also means that you can demonstrate that there was no intention to drive.
Nowadays I woujld probably email in advance as well.
So I'm fortunate to own a beautiful car with a superb stereo. The car is permanently garaged and only driven occasionally. I enjoy a drink and will sit in the car in the garage, listening to music and if its cold with the engine running (garage door open obviously). Usually there are two other cars parked in front in the driveway and driveway gates closed. Am i commiting an offence other than poisoning the planet?
They should have to prove you were intending on driving, not you proving you weren’t, It’s mental! It’s a potential crime if you aren’t actually driving when they see you surely. Almost like Minority Report. “We are arresting you for something that you may do in the future, you don’t have to say anything but anything you do say will be completely ignored!” 😮
I suppose if you decide that you will start consuming alcohol in a pub, then the best thing to do is to ask the owner of the public house if they will look after your car keys until you are fit to collect them the next day.
What about when the keys are a phone app? In charge of a phone or in charge of a vehicle?
Many years ago when I was a stupid teenager I thought I wasn't breaking any laws when I parked up, had a few beers and then kipped in the car.
I am so lucky the old bill never turned up to check on me!
So is it legal for a police officer to operate their radio when driving? Or is it one rule for you another rule for us?
Also what if your drunk in your house and the police knock on the door. Yor car is oarked on the driveway. Coukd they jump yo conclusions and say you may have driven? What a ridiculous law!!!!
All that said Daniel so if I left my car on my drive & I went out & had a skinful at a local pub then came home & for some reason a police car watched me do that I to could be charged ? Surely the interpretation would be the same ? This law is very one sided & very spurious !
Glad that you brought this subject up. But can you elaborate more.
As a person that lived in an apartment and owner of a car that had only had public on-street parking in my town.
I was the sole owner and driver of the car. So I did wonder if for some reason the Police contacted me about the situation of my car and it needed to be moved for emergency reasons Even though it was in a designated parking zone.
If I was out for the night in the town where my car is parked and I was intoxicated. I wouldn't have my car keys on me but being the sole owner I am still in charge of that car technically.
If the car required moving I should not hand the Police the keys as that would confirm I am in charge? What do you suggest?
Seems draconian that you couldn't share a bottle of wine in the evening while on holiday in a camper on a site with your girlfriend, without risking arrest.
Seems the police can arrest you pretty much whenever they feel like it, for doing almost anything.
Specifically regarding being in a pub with car keys in one's pocket while one's car is in the pub car park: In what circumstances could the police even ascertain this? Can they enter a pub and demand that patrons turn out their pockets?
Also, if "in charge" can be attenuated by "intention to drive" - how can "intention" ever be proven beyond reasonable doubt? Are judges and magistrates actually mind readers?
Also... does it only refer to pubs? Surely if I'm in my house, alone, over the limit, my car is outside and the car keys are in my possession (not necessarily on my person) I'm in charge of my car. How is that any different to the pub scenario? This area of the law is greyer than an English summer sky.
Now this did happen to me I was in the Pub car park opening my car door letting in two friends to drive them home The police came over talked to them and breathalyzed me. Now I am and Asthmatic so the first test was negative so they asked me to do it again but I could not blow hard and long enough then asked me to Blow again still had trouble now they never allowed me to speak and say I was an asthmatic. they did not want me to get anything out of my pocket which was my inhaler. The two officers wanted my Car keys and arrest me under suspicion to take me to the police station as one walked around my car looking at light tires so on. The the land Lord came out and asked what is going on in his car park. They told him they were detaining me suspicion of Drinking alcohol he said did you test him they said yes I said three times. The Landlord said you do know he is an asthmatic does not drink alcohol also that means the first test must had been negative why ask three times. The two Officers looked at him walked away never said a word and left. Who was in the right here as I still do not know?
Some of these scenarios are reaching the world of fantasy. Surely you have to be committing an offence to be charged with it. Innocent until proved guilty must apply in my view. It starts to get like the film Minority Report where people are arrested because they are statistically likely to commit a crime
I have a "camping car" ie no rear seats a purpose built flat plywood folding floor and always hang the keys up in the vehicle. I have a foldable toilet and camping stove set up as soon i settle for the night. And both front seats are all the way forward.
If i need a beer or two i always estimate 1 hour to 1 unit before I drive next day.
Probably better to be safe than sorry though. ..2 hours.
Usually part in hospitals and off road lay-by/ services ect.
You are technically in charge of the car and hence breaking the law. I would hide the key while youre sleeping. Not sure where you would tell the cops where it is..
back in the early 80's my grandmother was a landlady of a pub, and she was dead against drinking and driving, so the regulars that she knew had driven to the pub she would take the car keys off them, she would allow them to sleep in their cars, just not allow them to have access to their car keys until they could prove they were sober enough to drive. would you still be classed as in charge of a motor vehicle if you don't have the keys to drive it?
no
We often used our motorcaravan in remote areas, and always preferred to avoid caravan parks. We'd find a pub, ask if we could park overnight in their car park and when they said 'yes'- which they ALWAYS did, we'd have something to eat and relax with an extra glass of wine. Is there ever a time when you can say there are no circumstances where you might drive? A bottle of wine at home, but you have access to the car key ?
Stupid. If I intend to call at cab when I decide I want go home from the pub and not pre-book, I could be nicked??
Wouldn’t a petrol station forecourt be private property not a public road. Now they say you can use your mobile but not while filling the car. So there you are “holding your phone” which is illegal while driving on a public road, while in the drivers seat, engine off to fill out your fuel tracker, or to text someone you are on your way. At that moment a policeman questions you or writes up a fine. What can you do? Then you have all these touchscreen vehicles which imply you can drive and touch the screen for non complex tasks yet if you were to touch a phone that’s in a cradle to do the same thing is this illegal?
So how does it work with drugs? Afterall UK and German pilots were given amphetamines to fly planes for longer in ww2 so is it definitive that just because it's a controlled drug it will inhibit your driving? Do the Police have to demonstrate that while under the influence of the drug it made you incapable or is it strict liability? And if so what about prescription drugs like painkillers?
I copped it here down under decades ago, was asleep in the back of my panel van after a party, decided not to drive , but keys where on the front seat , I was charged with DUI and with intention to put a motor vehicle into motion anyway.
The moral of the story is, just drive home while drunk.
@@e-curb Exactly as bad as it sounds, the peeps that decide "Mate i'm absolutely wasted, i'm going to drive home quickly" are the ones that are fine but the law abiding citizens that go "Oh i'll sleep it off in the back of my car" get arrested and charged... madness, complete and utter dystopian madness.
So you have to prove that you were unlikely to use the vehicle?? Doesn't that go against innocent until proven guilty?
It seems there's a lot of assumions being made on the side of the law/cops. I mean what if you weren't going to have a drink, but end up having a few. So you think no problem when time comes I call a cab or a friend and get a ride home. So you step outside because it's too noisy, to make a the call. Cops go well have him or her. Cops come along, next things you know you're having to deal with these guys in uniform coming over and start harassing you. Then it would seem you have to prove you where just about to call a cab. They call you lier and now you're a criminal and get treated like one! No! No! No! My 2c
Subscribed Years ago a friend of mine had a couple of beers at a another mates house . He had called in on his moped . Being what he thought was sensible pushed his moped home as it was just a few hundred yards . Police drive by............You have now guessed the rest
I find it interesting how laws differ by place. Where I am in NSW, Australia the law requires someone to either drive or sit in the drivers seat and attempt to drive or supervise a learner. It isn't clear where the laws apply, but that might be specified elsewhere. One section I found amusing was that when someone is charged with a range of blood alcohol, proving that their blood alcohol was higher than the range is not a defence.
Would it offence if I have alcohol in my system and went out to my car which is parked outside my home address to get something out of the car? Or if I was to clean/vacuum inside or wash the outside of the car
Well it's easier than catching criminals!
This is tedious but not at alll surprising from the modern British police. There are so many more important issues the police should be focusing their time and effort on than this, like catching actual crimimals.
I’m pissed on the sofa at home, it’s midnight, my car is on the drive and the keys in my pocket, am I still in charge?
I'd say, your drive is private property, not a public place
@@johnburns5783 pub car park is private property 🤔
Yes (in theory).
What if someone parks on the street - and keeps the keys in their pocket at all times (asking for a friend)? @@johnburns5783
@@fredbloggs5902 so, plod can nick you for drunk in charge under any circumstances then….even in your own home, interesting encroachment don’t you think?
What’s the law on drinking a can of beer whilst driving, providing you stay under the prescribed limit?
Looked this up once. IIRC, it's technically legal, but the police could charge you for other offences (wasting police time, causing members of the public distress, etc.)
So, any vehicle owner at any point is in charge, even when at home and sharing a bottle of wine??
So what if you have a Tesla and your key is your phone? Does that mean that every time you drink and have the phone on you you're guilty?
10:36 and I still don't know what the chap on tiktok did
If you’ve had a few at home, then realise you left something in your car, go outside and open the car door to get it, you can be arrested and charged. Not that the police would be outside your house, they’re too busy arresting someone for the crime of misgendering, exchanging pornographic images on WhatsApp and polishing the paintwork on their rainbow coloured car.
My brother parked his car outside his house and went in. Had some beers with a few friends and realised he'd left his diabetes drugs in the glove compartment. He went out and opened the passenger door to get the drugs. He was stopped by the police and charged with drunk in charge!
At least he is driving again now the poor sod
Question mr blackbelt; how is the “pub scenario” different to having the keys in my pocket if I’m sat at home- surely at anytime I own a vehicle I am in charge of it?
Presumably it's rather easier to make the case that you had no intention of driving if you were already at home and thus it would be pointless to arrest somebody for a case that would not have a hope of standing up in court.
In any event, I'm finding the BBB's scenario rather far-fetched in this case.
On this basis, I can be over the prescribed limit in my home but with car keys in my pocket to my car parked on my driveway and be guilty of an offence in case I decide to drive the aforementioned vehicle
People drive to where they are going to drink with the intention of either walking or getting a taxi home afterwards.
They can then pick up the car the following day.
Terrific explanation. Thank you.
There are two changes I would make:
a. Distinguish between those who tried to keep to limit and misjudged it vs those who ignored it. Say if the blood alcohol was below 50 there would be a lower range of penalties available (perhaps with the mandatory ban).
b. If someone is responsible enough to be asleep in the back of the car that should be reasonable mitigation. (A bit medieval, but perhaps the test that they were prepared to hold the exhaust manifold could be used to confirm that they engine hadn't been run).
Engine hadn't been run? But what if it's a cold night and I want the hot blowers on?
Drink driving should only be prosecutable under both of the following conditions being met:
1) You were drunk.
2) You were driving.
Everything else is just absolute nonsense and puts guilt before innocence.
@@kylebutler1101 absolutely agreed, to commit any crime you have to have completed the law breaking requisites, can't just charge someone on a "You might decide to drive" ideaology as that very much reminds me of Tom cruise in minority report "You haven't committed a crime, but we believe you will so here's a full punishment."
There is a defence to the "strict liability offence" of driving with over the prescribed amount of alcohol, albeit rare. Some people have medical condition where their stomachs ferment yeast in food products and as a result have alcohol in their blood stream--it is a valid defence as have been court cases in the past.
I used to live on a road where police here used to set a booze bus breath testing station. They pick spots where, once you see the setup there are no roads to turn down to avoid them. Sometimes there might be one but they put a pursuit car there.
Anyway, one night I was watch as I was fiddling around out the front and one car stopped in a park entrance, closed at night. The car just stopped there just off the road, in view of the cops. I wondered what they were doing and what the cops would do. Maybe they would wait for their bac to go down. Maybe they would wait for the cops to leave. Maybe the cops would come down and check them out. After about half an hour or more another car arrived, and someone got out and jumped into the driver seat of the waiting car. They drove off and went thought the breathalyzer station ok. I am sure the cops cud see what was a happening and was amazed that they got away with it. Unless it was someone in the know.
They have them near my road too and always out a lot more regularly during Xmas time stopping people
I don't know if anyone has noticed but this guy made a video titled 'I might have to sue LG'
He was blaming the monitor he bought for something that a lot of people said wasn't the monitors fault.
He has made the video private now.
Interesting. Can I pick your brains for a moment. I am a lorry driver where I work away from home all over the UK and I sleep in my lorry cab. I dont often park on a serices or truck stop for the night as these can be fairly noisy, especially with a running fridge trailer parked nearby. I prefer to sleep in a deep layby (the type that is set back from the main carriageway with a barrier) or a side road on an industrial estate.
Could I then be charged with drunk in charge of a vehicle if I were to have an alcoholic drink? A lot of truck stops provide a meal with a pint of lager or similar included in with the price of parking and they do not alway have a barrier. But I do a lot of drivers who buy a few cans of lager from a supermarket for their evening drink when they parked up for the evening.
I personally do not drink any form of alcohol while I am away working. But be interesting to know as most of my colleagues have a drink on an almost nightly basis.
I suppose paying for parking in a truck stop or service area maybe a defence as usually in most cases. The payment to park is for upto 24 hours. But there has been a time once when I did park in Hopwood Park services near to Birmingham with the assumption I was finished for the evening as there was no other work immediately available. But after I paid for the parking, around 90 minutes later. I was sent a job to pick up which was some distance away in Swindon for a 6am collection and as I had sufficient time left on my tachograph, I made the decision to travel down the evening before to have my 11 hours off duty close to the pick up point to avoid getting up really early. So really, a payment for parking can not always be used as a defence