The Church's Response to Celebrity Converts Needs to Improve
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So every now and then, some #celebrity or social media #influencer will make public their #conversion to Christianity or #Catholicism and every time, without fail, it becomes a major focal point for opining and even controversy among #Catholics online.
And just as often, that person - that fresh convert, is almost immediately positioned from influencer in society in general, to influencer or even thought leader in the Church specifically. A couple of recent examples of this include Shia LaBeouf, who needs no introduction, and a model named Nala Ray.
Music written and generously provided by Paul Jernberg. Find out more about his work as a composer here: pauljernberg.com
Podcast Version: brianholdswort...
Do you think we should confine our celebration of converts to the local level rather than the public?
As a former Christian (now agnostic), I think the reason several Christians are hesitant to celebrate these conversions is because often times they don’t seem genuine. Like remember Kanye? People are rightly suspicious of celebrities like him calling themselves Christian or born again. Likewise the Kardashians who are supposed to be orthodox lol. Sure I’m not Christian anymore, but the hypocrisy still annoys me, and I understand people’s hesitation to celebrate new celebrity converts
They must be carefully and gently supported.
This is what I have to say about this?
This video was made not after the conversion story of Shai La Boeuf but after the conversion story of Nala ( the former pornst*r). Listening to Shai's story, he spoke about how he left His normal environment to stay with some monks while also learning about the life of Fr Pio that he was going to play. His story was filled with someone who kept on saying that he was a sinner and showed humility. The story of Nala from the little I have gathered hasn't shown such humility and some inconsistencies have been discussed by some persons. When asked if she regretted everything, she said she did not.
These are some of the reasons why her conversion caused more issues online among Christians. Not all conversions are sincere, this is not me saying that her conversion is insincere, at the same time I completely understand why Christians and non-Christians will think that she is insincere. Also, so many were derided for being sceptical. Since Heaven will rejoice for a sinners' conversion, we hope that this is true for both of them. At the same time, it might make sense if the Church delays celebrating the conversion of sinners. During this delay, they can be prayed for and taught about the teaching of Our Lord Jesus Christ.
it will also make sense for the podcasters and Christian media not to give them any air time till after some time.
@@theolite360 actually she did regret her past..if you watch Michael Knowles coverage of her, I thought she seemed maybe a bit new and fresh but very immature still in her faith, as all of us converts are at the beginning. Her Father was also a “Pastor” and she doesn’t have a great relationship with her parents so I think she is trying to also heal from the trauma of her family and her choices. I think she needs Grace and Mercy right now and whatever she chooses to do with that is out of everyone’s hands. But I still think she is entitled to tell people about it. I’m hoping more OF girls get out of that culture because of her.
@@davyrantucci did she say she regretted doing the OF? If that is true, glory be to God. That would mean she is taking accountability of her actions and not blaming it on anyone else. She need Grace from God especially, grace from men is not guaranteed and shouldn't be expected. It will be nice to extended grace to her but she is not entitled to it either. I do hope her conversion is genuine just as I continue to pursue being continually saved through Christ Jesus.
Mark Wahlberg went to mas at my church once. He went to great lengths to not be disruptive. Very admirable the way he handled it.
Id imagine it would be hard to just go to mass when everyone would be wanting to flock about you and talk to you like they know you.
Shia Lebouf’s conversion story had a huge influence on my husband and my conversion. Not cause I’m a big fan, but more because it highlighted the truth of Catholicism. God definitely used it.
Welcome home! ✝⛪
That is awesome! I am curious what stood out to you about it?
@@carterstanton3540 well I had a Protestant background but I’d seen the worst of it and it basically repelled me. I loved the steadiness of Catholicism as well as the history. It was basically the opposite of the Protestant fever dream.
I am always happy when celebrities convert and say it out loud. What I also do is pray for them, so that they can remain faithful, because I think they have a lot more temptations than us.
I was one of the anti Christian atheist to exist. I was sexually immoral, pro choice, etc etc. I was a semi public figure in my city. Praise God I was part of church that loved me.
People need to stop being so obsessed with social media "celebrities". It's weird and unhealthy.
Nala Ray's testimony had me in tears.
I think people are afraid that these celebrity converts aren't sincere, that they'll move on to the next big change in their lives eventually, and then give Catholicism or Protestant Christianity a bad name. But, if they do, that's on them. In the meantime, support and encourage their conversion!
Catholicism tends to require more of a convert than many Protestant churches. There's RCIA, decisions to be made, baptism, confession, first communion, confirmation,and celebrities often get the added benefit of "celebrity" pastoral care in the form of well-known priests or bishops.
And then we also expect them to be perfect and clutch pearls if they say a bad word or still like music we think they shouldn't be listening to, or dress in a way we think they shouldn't dress. There's a journey going on. No, we shouldn't wink at any half-baked conversions or on-going sin, but cut newbies some slack and let their priests and spiritual directors handle it. It must be hard being under a microscope. I'm glad I don't have anyone staring me down for any of my sins, mistakes, or preferences they don't agree with.
she never once said she was sorry or said she felt guilty for what she did. it was a therapeutic interview session where everytime she cried was because of the consequences of her actions, like when she said her family abandoned her "im a vile wh*re and pornographer, my dad doesn't talk to me anymore 😢".
I concur with you Mrs Scott. I am a convert and i have heard either directly, or through others, just how much people thought i was insincere, due to having tattoos, the car that i drive, *thinking* they knew who i am and what’s in my heart..
Basically saying, i was “bad news”. Three years on, I’m still a traditional Catholic, getting married in the Church to a Cradle Catholic to whom i love and have been faithful to, and will continue to. I regularly attend weekday Masses as well as on Sundays, pray the Rosary daily along with my morning and evening prayers, involve myself with my community (the people who haven’t been critical of my previous life) and have completely changed my life and am getting my tattoos removed. If what those people said were true, I wouldn’t have been able to come this far. All Glory to God for the change He has made in me - He saw me through it all and continues to do so everyday. But it would have been nice to not have my intentions misjudged from the get-go, just because i have a sketchy past.
A REAL Christian believes in the power of God and His redemption. Thank you for wanting to see the good in people ❤️
Everybody wants to see Journey Home: Celebrity Edition.
We should celebrate all conversions. If we doubt, we should pray for their perseverance. They are going to be facing spiritual challenges that are completely new to them
I forgot who it was that said there is a "three year rule." Meaning, three years of post-conversion formation and prayer development before one can step out into the public realm and commenting on the Faith. Good rule.
That is a canonical rule for converts either joining a religious community or going to seminary (though it may be 5 years; and, I think that abbots at a monastery do have some leeway in accepting people sooner, if he and the community discerns that that is what is good for them).
That is ridiculous. The testimony of converts is vitally important and can change way more hearts.
@@GM-kp3ux nobody is saying that “the testimonies of converts is invalid”, but are cautioning against putting them in the spotlight, especially so soon. Even St. Paul warned against putting new converts into leadership positions.
As I stated in my previous comment, there are general canonical rules against new converts entering either seminar or religious communities, so as to give them time to be more spiritually formed and settled in their newfound Catholic faith.
They already had 2 years of instruction by the time they are baptized.
@@deliarealtor the canons speculated a time period AFTER baptism.
I think it's awesome. I came to the Church in 2012. Glad to see and hear of others following the same path. Any conversion is a time for celebration.
I rejoice and pray for every convert . Unknown and known.
AMEN!
This is exactly it. Charity.
Amén. Bendito seas por ello.
Yesss at adoration I do this too
Brian, Personally speaking, I welcome ALL converts. I don’t care of their pasts at all. Be it Protestant, atheist, adult film performer, etc………..I’m interested in their conversion stories and feel an instant kinship with them. No judgment here, just welcomed acceptance and respect. God bless all.
Never though about it, we don't praise them for their strengths and courage to announce to the world thier conversion. God bless them and God bless you Brian. Thank you.
Thank you so much for this comment. To say something negative to these converts and doubt their conversion is to negate the fact that our church is based on conversion: Peter, Paul,
Mary Magdalene, Ignatius… and the list goes on.. please be supportive and pray for these new coverts..also yes, please do not put pressure on them, pray for them. ❤🙏🏽🕊️
Thank you Brian for being a balanced voice in the church today.
Thank you for these INSIGHTFUL, WISE and LOVING comments, Brian❣
In the "product review" language: interviewing a recent convert is like the unboxing experience, while perspective of a 3-years-ago convert is more like a proper review.
The zeal of converts, particarly famous ones, is very intriguing to many whose faith has become lukewarm thanks to a lifetime of bathing in a culture that has taught us to be ashamed of our faith. I pray that the faith of these converts is genuine and life-long, and that it can have a positive influence on many others. But only time will tell and we shall know them by their fruits.
Additionally, I think most people do not realize how human celebrities really are (just like the rest of us common folk). They deserve to be treated with the same amount of respect as any other person. I think someone being “distracted” by the mere presence of a well-known person at Mass speaks more about the one who is distracted.
I think the point is people treat them as if they're something special, which they are not. That's the point of the video.
I agree with you Brian a 110%! Those in our Church ready and willing to shun these folks are guilty of a very serious offence. We ought to rejoice in these people's conversion and pray for their success rather than become immediate judges. It sickens me how pride will turn us against our own. Prior to his conversion, St. Paul was a murderer. He became a giant among our Church fathers!
Right on Brian! Prudence, time, and confirmation are all essential.
As long as they repent for the grave sins they've done, they have a chance to be saved like all of us!
Russell Brandt prayed the rosary on his podcast
WOW!
I think most faith growth should happen in private. There is a danger in making so much of our thoughts and feelings public - especially for new converts.
I started typing this while listening to your video… and I am very much in agreement with all you say here. Excellent! 👍
Man, you nailed it with the first loss of community and relationships after the initial conversion. I remember feeling so lost at sea in the beginning. Thankfully, God brought good Catholics into my life, but it really was a painful transition in my life (albeit with a very happy and peaceful result).
Along the topic of fresh-convert zeal, I think one of the things I wish I had done upon reverting to Catholicism was finding a spiritual director and/or mentor within the Church before I started blogging. As my blog gained more traffic, there was always strong temptation to be sensationalistic in my writing and on social media (especially when I was being paid per click).
New-convert zeal seems like a honeymoon after a wedding at first until life sinks in and the resolve of your faith is put to the test.
*edited* convert, not covert. Whoops.
Thank you for your very insightful and truly caring guidance!
Amen brother. Truth be told I thought you were gonna make the case of not trusting the conversion of celebrity converts, but you said the complete opposite. I agree with you
I see a lot of the critics arnt even chrstian. God knows if the reprentance is legit, so I don't worry about if it's legit. I feel that if you treat them as if it's not it makes it easier for the voice that called them to sin in the first place to take root again.
Most of the people that hypocritically virtue signal about this women aren’t practicing Christians either. I feel like you are in that category.
As sinners, we all encounter the struggle with sin/temptation. We have to treat our fellow baby Christians with charity, love, and compassion. You are absolutely right that we should not focus on whether their repentance is legit or not - that is only for our Lord to decide.
Like all of your content, this was well thought out and well put. I agree that our mental and spiritual energy should be put towards the Lord, yet maintain an open heart to our brothers and sisters that have come home.
Not even us born Catholics know it all about everything. Humility demands we learn every day about our faith. If it helps at all, I welcome you and am happy converts found their way. Blessings to all of you. May the Holy Spirit guide you and our Lady protect you.
My thoughts exactly! Bravo to the bravest of all- Hollywood converts ❤👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼
Fantastic, I cant wait to watch and comment on this one .
As a new convert I really appreciate this video🎉
I get what you are saying about Christ celebrating converts hence why we should but only Christ knows how sincere the conversion is
If we put them in a pedestal and they proceed to dilute and misrepresent Church teachings , what then ??
As a recent convert myself , let’s be careful with celebrity converts , give your congrats , encouragement and that’s it ( the only things that should improve , which weren’t really a problem to begin with )
God bless.
Actually, reaction in the Christian community has been positive, in regards to Nala. Where she has received the most criticism is the manosphere. They don’t believe she deserves redemption or love.
You have no clue what you’re talking about
@@syn4588 looked at the Christian channels and the manosphere channel, then come back to me.
A lot of them need Jesus too.
If the Catholic Church did not accept sinners it would be empty.
I still pray for some of those whose pictures were shown as examples of thise who were leaders who fell 🙏🙏🙏
@11:40 Loved hearing the Byzantine Trisagion Hymn fade in at the end, there! ☦
I'm sort of on the grift accusation when Nala gave up on porn, but i dont find her unredeemable. I do feel it problematic when repentance and penance should be 1st and foremost on the mind and not parading around for interviews and exposure. Not to mention she should give away whatever profits she's gotten from her Only Fans "career" if she really wants that life behind her. Nala should take the St. Mary of Egypt approach and leave.
I pray for her just as much as I would pray for any convert to truly walk the path.
St Mary of Egypt is awesome!
@@MrSggurcs she's very awesome. A gold standard to turn to for those who have dealt with a past of sexual sin.
I agree, I think she's grifting. I watched a yt vid on another channel that went through her knowles interview, she outright lied a few times and at the time her OF account was still active and she actually raised the price...
@@DanielCraig-e8z quite troubling information if the claims are true.
There is a fine line between lauding the recent convert and exploiting them. We should tread carefully with them and recognize the precious gift they have received.
St Paul started the tradition - converts shouldn't teach or be in leadership for at least 5-7 years. This used to be the norm. Its for good reason. I think programs like Journey Home are as far as it should go. ❤️ Also just to be super clear, Nala is not a Catholic. She joined some non denominational Church - which worries me for her.
Sometimes, people convert to whatever church comes to hand and later become Catholic. What might seem obvious to you and me might take time for an outsider to think through.
The Lord chose some of the least respected, and some possibly criminal, people as his disciples; He told an adulteress to go and sun no more (there’s debate about the validity); he saved Mary Magdalene from prostitution; he healed the Roman Centurion’s servant without question. I could go on. In other words, the Lord welcomed all who were not typically welcome in Judean circles.
If anything, we should rejoice when someone leaves behind a life of sin, or turns to the Lord to follow Him. Have none of the critics read Luke 15? Each and every one of these converts should be treated like the lost sheep.
She is a rapist though. Jesus never has chosen a rapist as His disciple.
I always like to hear people testimonies when they convert no matter if they are famous or no, sometimes I learn things that I don't even notice from growing as catholic and makes me appreciate thing that I take for granted, but I agree we should be happy for the new converts but don't give them a special treatment because they are celebrities
Thank you for this video!!
I am glad you have said this publicly. I have often cautioned prudence against drawing undue attention to new converts, especially celebrity ones. But I am sure my counsel gets buried in the comment section among the myriad praises and vain exclamations therein. It does those souls a disservice. Say, if you or I fall into venial (or God forbid mortal) sin after public conversion and profession faith, because we do not cease to be human afterward, it is only known by a few or maybe even just your confessor. But if a celebrity convert does, it may be broadcast far and wide, and the humiliation and injury will be much harder to bear, worse yet the insult/injury may be from fellow Catholics/Christians criticizing and condemning in the marketplace of idea(l)s /:) of the comment section, where everyone has an opinion but not everyone has virtue. I think of the many times I have offered prudent counsel to "fellow Christians" cautioning against the lack of charity, rash judgement, and detraction when it came to Mel Gibson, luckily for him he has mature fortitude. The amount of abuse from the straight laces that were thrown at him would convince you no one could smell the odor of their own excrement.
Absolutely exasperating!.. the celebrity converts aside, the imprudent vanity of those glorifying the convert for love of their faith, puffing themselves up in some self-congratulatory way for being Catholic is repugnant. If they took a moment to consider the soul before them, they would be more circumspect.
The devil has a bag of dirty tricks he sets in motion years earlier before they ever manifest, it would be wise to see where he is sowing tares.
As a convert to God's one catholic and apostolic church, I am chief among sinners, the past life was most assuredly so debauched that if I were to share just a snippet with my brothers and sisters they would reel in revulsion, in my new life I am quite I dress conservatively, keep all my tattoos covered and answer questions in a vague manner, not for shame, because Jesus knows me, but because those things are in the past and I am being conformed to a new creation in Christ, I would surmise that when God wills, he will loosen my tongue, but it is now time for leaning and silence, as I have much and grievous sin to atone for.
Beautiful! Being pleasing to God FIRST should be the focus of every soul. 🙏
Thank you for convincing me not to podcast, Mr. Holdsworrth.
I think it’s dramatically better for a celebrity convert to explain their conversion through a Catholic podcast than through a misleadingly-edited interview in the hostile secular media.
Great points!
Oh it is a great tradiiton in the Church to celebrate the conversion of our former enemies. I recall a Jewish guy, a disciple of a famous rabbi, Gamaliel. His name was Saul. He was from Tarsus. Maybe you have heard about him. Or you might have read about his story.🤷
Blessed are the rich that hypocrisy idol really meant.
This is a really thoughtful treatment of the subject Brian. I converted with no fanfare at all thankfully. There were all sorts of sinful habits of my prior life that took years to address. It’s important to remember conversion is a first step not final one.
You must always support and pray for converts!! Some of our most revered saints were converts!! Augustine comes to mind Mary Magdalene hello!!!
Nala didn't become Catholic anyway
Having listened to you, dear Brian, l guess being a celebrity is boon and bane. The German Nobel prize winner Thomas Mann said it like this: "Longing for the delights of normality." Dear Brian, 100 eyes upon you and your family are awful- but there are at least 200 loving eyes of guardian angles to protect and shelter you. Thank you for carrying your burden and shouldering your (celebrity) cross!
To be fair, the celebration of Shia was not because he converted, but many were following his journey from nearly ending his life to his giving life another chance by accepting a movie role of Padre Pio and then his new belief and trust in a God and then the Catholic church. He didn't just come out of the woodwork and announce he was converting, he has been on this journey for a couple years and many like myself were wondering where he was at in his life. His interview with Bishop Barron let us know he was serious and sincere and then he really went for it. :)
I'd appreciate a new online movement where we show clips of celebrities who openly admit their conversion interspersed with average people who also say they're converts accepting God in their lives. The message should be, "You aren't alone in converting, converts aren't social pariahs and anyone can be accepted by God if you're willing to turn your gaze to Christ." Imagine how many we could help making them not feel so alone or judged.
Very well said, still I pray for them to learn more about the faith as well as they stay in the faith.
Why would you include a picture of Nala, who isn’t even Catholic when Bree Solstad/Miss B Converted actually put in the work to become Catholic? This seems like you’re just after clicks when there is a far better example to show your viewers.
I was an utter degenerate before I found God.
Crazy how people attack people seeking redemption and to follow God.
I am happy for them and their status helps others find the true path.
You and Trent should do more debates
Another banger from Brian
2 things for you to think about:
1.) You are absolutely right: when a person converts to Christianity, Christians should rejoice. But a soul converted is a soul converted, whether or not the person is a celebrity or Joe Six-Pack who works a blue collar job. And a celebrity needs to be seen as a brother or sister in Christ, period. There is a sense in which their social status needs to be shelved, and they need to be "just another Christian" in that their status should not be some sort of conflation of superiority when seen alongside their faith.
2.) I know you guys in Rome are reluctant to speak about this, but there ARE such things as false converts. Should every new convert be viewed with overwhelming suspicion? No--that unfortunately is a trait in sections of evangelical fundamentalism, where pastors sometimes preach as if their parishioners are all secretly living impenitent lives of wickedness. But... having said that, there is a visible church and invisible church, and the two are not always synonymous. Jesus warned against false prophets (Matthew 7). St. Paul warned of false teachers leading people astray (Acts 20 and reference in most of his epistles as well). The best should be believed about a person's conversion unless proven otherwise, but that does not mean false conversions cannot or do not happen.
May I ask where did you get the lamp behind you? On your book shelf
Excellent take!
Gosh as someone who converted in 2006, I hope no one holds who I was at the beginning of my journey as who I am still…beginning me, and me today, are totally different. I’m sure me now and me in 20 years will be different in my faith. I think no matter who we are, we all need to be humble and kind to everyone who converts, and surround them with proper knowledge too. It’s the support that will keep converts searching. When we abandon them after their conversion, or degrade them, or make them feel like not enough…it’s like abandoning an infant, because they are infants…in their faith. So it’s on us to help them!
The redhead is not a celebrity I have no idea who she is and pretty sure most people don't as well
Can i just say i don't like that new Hallow app, i got an ad for it with celebrity Catholics and it felt so off.
If someone converts, I treat them as I would anyone else converting: with relief and appreciation. If the church doesn't respect and accept them, then the individuals in power failed and chain us to the sinking rock of secular unbelief. If a famous person is willing to socially martyr themselves by getting up in front of everyone in the world and say, "I've done sinful things I regret, things that hurt people and I've decided to turn away and accept the reality of God, Jesus and the Church because it's the right thing to do," then maybe we should embrace that lost sheep coming back.
Any convert is a win for the Kingdom of Heaven. Yet some vicariously live through the "fame " of others and the conversion of others because they themselves cant and won't be self-sacrificing for their neighbors own conversion.
As far as the convert themselves, I wholeheartedly agree with the scriptures you cited and pray these "celebrities" are obedient to good spiritual advisors.
"Converts" are always the most ENTHUSIASTIC religious people. This annoyed me greatly when I first started kinda unconsciously noticing it back when I was raised as a Roman Catholic. It was always the Protestant who was the most.....NUTS about religion. Having not suffered the heartbreaking restrictions I was under CRUELLY.
Taylor Marshall has the best statement on Nala.
Unfortunately, I think that we will have to wait for a new generation of bishops for this magisterial response.
The converts were called by our Creator to improve themselves. Just like everyone else they just need to follow the Lord's will and the precepts of the Holy Church.
Matthew 22:37-39,
Proverbs 9:1.
Philippians 4:6-9.
Numbers 6:24-26. ✝️🙏🏻 Amen.
Especially important to support the process of conversion for new converts. I know as a convert it takes time no matter how enthusiastic one is. Milo Y. comes to mind.
It is exciting when a high profile figure converts to Catholicism - no doubt. The two questions that come to mind: 1. Are the high profile convert doing this as a tool to keep them relevant on Social Media? 2. What happens later on down the rod when the dopamine and attention fade. We've seen Anne Rice go from Catholic, to Atheist, to Catholic, to something else. Those who think about our existence struggle. Saints wrestled with their faith, I'm just a common guy and struggle with being a good Catholic, and celebrities are no different.
Brian, I want to say thank you. I’m a catechumen converting from Mormonism to Eastern Orthodoxy (I spent a long time discerning between Catholicism and orthodoxy and eventually chose orthodoxy but I still LOVE my Catholic friends) and your content was some of the first that got me thinking about and learning about the apostolic churches. I owe my new life in part to you. Thank you.
They'll make you anti-Catholic in no time.
I’m converting from Mormonism to Catholicism and starting ocia this fall. If you want to ever chat since we’ve got similar experiences let me know I can send you my info.
I am a convert to the LDS faith. Active. Why did you leave Mormonism? Not to tell you you are wrong (I don’t believe that). I am just curious.
☦️We & Catholics are 2 sides of the same coin. Congrats for leaving the sick cult & welcome to our Church👏 👏
@@jawhi☦️🤝✝️
To summarize: famous converts should be accepted like any other convert. Not looked at with suspicion. And their conversion should not be monetized.
One thing I’ve noticed about converts who accept Islam is how warm and welcoming Muslims are towards converts. If we Christian’s had the same attitude maybe we would have more people coming to Christianity.
Suffering has two paths, misery or holiness. If a Catholic is obedient to his Lord, misery is out of the question. The faith required to touch the seam of His garment in a crowd is a fine example of how we are to love our God. Rich man/ poor man, it makes no difference. We are to become like children again, but instead of our parents being the focus of our awe and complete suplication , as they were when we were kids, it is Christ. Mary, the angels/ saints. We are all truly blessed to be walking away from Satans grasp.
Let’s not re enter the world of the lord of the flies by listening to those among us who have other goals in mind. Goals for the Holy Church that have no part in our great gift called the cross. We all know the times are a whirlwind of trash and debris. Let’s stay with the omnipotent parenting of Christ through tradition and reclaiming the Latin Mass and all practice/ rubrics used prior to 1955. Let the protestants be in their home made faith, but never let them influence Christs only church on earth. We don’t want any human to wear a millstone around their neck, but to convert and obey Christ as He said.
I’m so glad to see others saying these things. Thanks
For this reason I'm glad I havent heard anything from Shia le Boeuf
Excellent, excellent, excellent Brian!!
I blame our culture of aggressive online competition for clicks. Our Catholic media and influencers aren't immune. They want to be relevant. But I've had the same concerns. New converts need time to mature in the faith. They are still being molded in the faith, and often have a completely different worldview they are untangling themselves from. They haven't completely sorted it all out yet.
“If we only have the will to walk, then God is pleased with our stumbles.”
As someone who was a recent convert this Easter, I’m glad they are coming in to the Church. I’ve had a lot of cradle Catholics help me and show the way, but I think as a convert I can see the trouble they’ve faced coming into it and staying with it. Putting artificial barriers that aren’t Christian from Christians that hurt them can be demoralizing. The outside world works endlessly to pull them away from grace.
Former British Prime Minister Tony Blair is an example of how not to be a convert. He waited until he had retired from being Prime Minister, and since then has remained on the public stage.
Given his unfortunate record, Blair would have been a better example if he had retired into obscurity.
This seems to fly in the face of James 2:1-13 in regards to favoritism. Nothing wrong with celebrities becoming saved. But shouldn't we celebrate the repentance of Joe Schmoe the trucker in our local church just as much?
Amen
I’ve had on a couple of occasions people being “funny” with me - both times from American Catholics of Irish descent - over how I am an Englishman convert. Like really bro, I am not going to be doing penance for events that happened when I wasn’t even born! And most of my ancestors aren’t even English (they forgot Wales is a place!) & please, look up the persecution of the Church in England! The beauty of the faith was stolen from them - less so by Henry VIII and more by his son and daughter Edward and Elizabeth. Yeeesh! Weirdos.
I'm just saying I have an easier time believing it's legit if I knew where that 9 million went after the conversion...
I don't usually disagree with your take on things, but in this matter you are so very wrong, and destructively wrong. It's one thing for someone to convert and for the church to welcome them in when they ask to join. It's quite another for the church to celebrate them, put them on shows, make them "thought leaders", etc.
I say this for two reasons - one as an outsider looking in, and the other as a matter of logic as it relates to Jesus forgiving people.
Firstly, there's no problem with someone repenting and deciding to join the church. The church should live up to its ways and welcome that person. That's where it stops, though. You want to join the club, you better obey the rules of the club. Part of that is understanding that you're the new guy and don't get to become any kind of celebrity just because you were a somebody on the outside. It's very important for christians to understand this because as an outsider who is also a nobody, there's nothing more off-putting than seeing christians faun over these celebrities who have spent a lifetime railing against the church and promoting all manner of sins to the masses then be given huge influence within the church as those "thought leaders" you talk about. As a nobody, I'm well aware that there are millions of other nobodies in the church who have lived very decent lives, relatively speaking, and always tried to hold fast to the faith. For them to be sidelined with no hope of being noticed and raised up.... well, that's just a betrayal. That's the christians embracing the Spirit of Judas. The only reason you lift the likes of shia labeuf and that porn star is because it massages your ego and you hope you can capitalize on it to make your faith more popular and acceptable. As a nobody, it's fairly disgusting behavior because it shows how christians will happily jump on any bandwagon if the price is right.
Secondly, you'd be fundamentally wrong to say that christians must forgive and welcome people in because that's what Jesus/God would/did do.
This is a logical fallacy because it ignores the one big issue -- Jesus/God KNEW if you were truly repentant. They could look deep into your soul and know the truth of all of you down to the last atom. You couldn't lie to them. You couldn't trick them.
You ain't them. You don't know what someone's true motivations are. You can hope. You can wish. But the only way that you can really know is to watch their behavior over years and decades. As the wise man once said, by the trees fruit shall you know it.
In the case of those 'stars' converting..... what fruits do you have by which you can judge the tree? How long has that tree been producing good fruits?
This is exactly why you don't simply 'forgive' someone - anyone. If someone is truly repentant, let them live that way for years without fail. Why not? They have years and years of publicly living in sin and encouraging others to live in sin, so why would you think they are repentant rather than simply trying to find a new audience to pay them millions and give them attention?
Remember, the only track record you have to judge them on is the fruits they've produced so far. You don't know what's in their hearts, so you have no reason to trust them, especially when everyone knows that they'll be immediately elevated to the highest positions within church culture.
This is the grotesque failure of catholics and christians as a whole. You don't take care of your own team, putting your people first. You'll listen to the snakes in the grass without hesitation, so long as they whisper the sweet nothings you want to hear.
Imagine how many good christians are out there knowing that the only way they can reasonably expect to rise up and be celebrated by the church is to live a life of sin and debauchery first. Only then can they be welcomed into the upper echelons of the church.
How many young kids see this?
I would challenge you to show me a single instance in the last 2 years where the church celebrated one of their own, a relative nobody who maybe got through all 12 years of grade school without missing a single day. Show me where Michael Knowles had on a young girl who managed to get to 21 years of age without doing something that was against the teachings of the bible.
Instead, the message is that you can spend years in the porn industry, doing drugs and encouraging others to live a hedonistic lifestyle.... but as soon as you say you've repented and are going to church, you will receive millions in support without a single question asked. And the 'thought leaders' of the church will actually CONDEMN those among the faithful who don't welcome this person in with open arms.
Truly repulsive, I have to admit. I'm not saying they can't repent and find god, but to be told that I MUST accept their word? To be told that I'm the problem because I judge a tree by its fruits?
No sir. This is exactly the kind of jive that pushes people away from the church. Not only is it wrong from a sociological perspective, it goes against the very logic that you think is supporting your position. It's treachery masked in benevolence. It's arrogance cloaked in virtue signaling wrapped in egotism. You're not God. You do not know the heart or intent of the person. All you can and should do is judge them by their actions, as counseled in scripture. If they were debauched for a decade, let them spend a decade walking the righteous path and then we can know they are truly repentant. Until then, you have no reason to say they are, or that someone's wrong for not welcoming them into the loftiest circles of the church.
What you're describing is more a sin than not.
"Instead, the message is that you can spend years in the porn industry, doing drugs and encouraging others to live a hedonistic lifestyle.... but as soon as you say you've repented and are going to church, you will receive millions in support without a single question asked. And the 'thought leaders' of the church will actually CONDEMN those among the faithful who don't welcome this person in with open arms."
This. If this was a transgender, liberal, or male hedonist... you know the skepticism would be more. I know not the amount of videos of people condemning their skepticism of Shia. This doesn't make me feel confident about the church, and it makes the Catholic view of repentance borderline evangelical in stupidity. We sound like the strawman that atheists would tell me about the murderer that would then got o church and say, "Sorry!" Are we really this naive and stupid? The fact that so many Catholics are demonizing the skeptics really makes me disgusted with the Church. One of there reasons I became Catholics was the importance of faith and works, not faith alone... and the importance of the Sacrament of Reconciliation. John the Baptist in the beginning of Matthew (or was it Mark?) challenged the pharisees coming to him show them they were serious. I have read accounts of women that sought to undo what they did, and one thing they didn't do immediately was going on a speaking tour. If she is truly repentant, great, but I really don't think we should be demonizing skeptics on this one./
I wouldn’t call Nala Ray a celebrity.
I don’t quite get the point being missed. I like Brian, Trent, and Michael. But are none of them aware of the videos Nala made quite recently where she acted in a way that was just repulsive.
Her testimony had a lot of red flags but it seems because she is rich and successful they completely ignore the warning signs.
For example she bragged she was in the top .01% on OF. She claims she is like the prodigal son when she is the exact opposite of a prodigal son. The prodigal son hit rock bottom while she is still rich, The prodigal son went back to the father while she went to social media to talk about her family. The prodigal son was willing to become a servant while she wants to be a leader.
James warns us about showing favor to the rich and push them to the front. If she was poor she wouldn't be news.
@@smidlee7747I will be more than happy for her conversion. But listen to just 3 minutes of her Whatever podcast talk…. And that’s not even one year ago. The way she talks is some of the most warped things I’ve heard in some time
@@carolinafine8050 That was prior to her conversion. Contrast that with her interview with Michael Knowles; the difference is night and day.
@@smidlee7747 Doesn't sound very repentant or convicted.
@@smidlee7747How helpful is it to hyper-scrutinize the claimed conversions of other? I see no reason to spend a second thought on it.
How about the church stop accepting grifters using the church to cash in
1:30 painting name?
So what do you think about the pope ?
The thumbnail didn't have to have those photos on it to be effective.
Amen...
What are you talking about? The response is pretty good toward converts. The church needs to change its response toward how it treats us that leave the church
If you apostatize you cast yourself into the darkness outside. Come home
She doesn't drop the costume or behavior in the interviews I've seen. I hope she's sincere but I feel that she came to corrupt the weak of the christian community.
Agreed
@furtrapper11 What costume and what behaviour?
@@MojoPin1983 She still identify with her porn name and look. She bragged she was in the top .01% of OF. I never read Rahab the harlot bragging she was in the top 1% of harlots in Jericho. She wants to be a leader even before she learns to be a follower.
Converts are clearly good, Constantine was a convert. But converts in high places are going to be under a lot of temptation to worldliness regardless of how you judge their moral history.