God bless you more Brother Ron for clarity presenting some biblical principles, may those eager to study open their hearts to truth and obey the gospel.
"if I cannot put my finger on the book, chapter and verse that instructs me to do something then I shouldn't be doing that" I agree and y'all need to go back to meeting in houses as the New Testament pattern clearly teaches.
I'd like to see more debates like this, I just wish those in favour of music in the church would do a much better job , it seems to me those in favour of music lack any real arguments.
I feel bad for people who don't take the bible as a complete book. People really think that it's all about the New Testament when actually you can't have one without the other. Example: Abraham, without him, we don't understand faith because he is the father of the faithful, and we are heirs and Abraham's seed Gal 3:9,29. Without Adam, you don't understand Jesus, who was a son of God Luke 3:38 he also was a figure of Jesus Rom 5:14 Jesus was also the last Adam 1 cor 15:45 last example David without him you don't get the son, king, kingdom, and the throne. 2 Sam 7:12-13 Jesus is that son, king, he's over that kingdom, and he sits on David throne. Matt 1:1 son of David Luke 1:31-33. As you can see, the Old Testament and the New Testament go together. it's called the bible. Yes, we are under a new and better covenant. But look at what the church is built off of. Ephesians 2:20 The 👉 Foundation 👈 of the w Jesus being the cornerstone. A cornerstone is a stone that holds two walls 🧱 together. You learn about the jews in the Old Testament and the Gentiles in the New Testament, which make up the church ⛪️ as far as an instrument of music. Let me teach you something. God did everything for a reason so you could you must follow the pattern. David a king from the tribe of Judah who wanted to build God a house 🏠. God, the father told him his son would build one, and his kingdom and throne would last forever. Jesus, who was from the tribe of Judah, who was the king of the jews and the son of David. Sits on David's throne. What's amazing is what David set up priests for the service of God in the house of God. Who played instruments. Jesus has made up priests, and we are a part of his kingdom. 1 Peter 2:9 when the temple was destroyed, actually two times the people of God would always set it back up like David had it. Ezra 3:10 and Nehemiah 12:24,45, but God made a promise to David Amos 9:11-12 that He will rebuild the tabernacle of David like in the days of Old. Also, it was prophesied about in Isaiah 16:5 question on the floor: Did God do what he promised? In your New Testament Acts 15:14-17, God made good on his promises. So, for those who think instruments are a sin, you have no law for it, and that also me our lord and savior will be in sin too 1 Thess. 4:16, he is coming back with an instrument 😂 1 cor. 15:52, the last trumpet.
I feel bad for people who don't take the bible as a complete book. People really think that it's all about the New Testament when actually you can't have one without the other. Example: Abraham, without him, we don't understand faith because he is the father of the faithful, and we are heirs and Abraham's seed Gal 3:9,29. Without Adam, you don't understand Jesus, who was a son of God Luke 3:38 he also was a figure of Jesus Rom 5:14 Jesus was also the last Adam 1 cor 15:45 last example David without him you don't get the son, king, kingdom, and the throne. 2 Sam 7:12-13 Jesus is that son, king, he's over that kingdom, and he sits on David throne. Matt 1:1 son of David Luke 1:31-33. As you can see, the Old Testament and the New Testament go together. it's called the bible. Yes, we are under a new and better covenant. But look at what the church is built off of. Ephesians 2:20 The 👉 Foundation 👈 of the apostles and prophets, Jesus being the cornerstone. A cornerstone is a stone that holds up two walls 🧱 together. You learned about the jews in the Old Testament Yahweh chosen people and the Gentiles which are adopted into God's family in the New Testament, which make up the church ⛪️ as far as an instrumental music. Let me teach you something. God did everything for a reason but you must follow the pattern. David a king from the tribe of Judah who wanted to build God a house 🏠. God, the father told him his son would build one, and his kingdom and throne would last forever. Jesus, who was from the tribe of Judah, who was the king of the jews and the son of David. Sits on David's throne. What's amazing is that David set up priests for the service of God in the house of God. Who played instruments. In the new testament Jesus has made up priests, and we are a part of his kingdom. 1 Peter 2:9 when the temple was destroyed, actually two times the people of God would always set it back up like David had it. Ezra 3:10 and Nehemiah 12:24,45, but God made a promise to David Amos 9:11-12 that He will rebuild the tabernacle of David like in the days of Old. Also, it was prophesied about in Isaiah 16:5 question on the floor: Did God do what he promised? In your New Testament Acts 15:14-17, God made good on his promises. So, for those who think instruments are a sin, you have no law for it, and that also means our lord and savior will be in sin too 1 Thess. 4:16, he is coming back with an instrument 😂 1 cor. 15:52, the last trumpet.
On using the instrument...It all boils down to "I want it...I'll have it... and I will find a way to "shoe-horn" it in with passages taken out of context and a generous amount of quibbling.
I respectfully disagree. God is a God of love as well as specific expectations. Would Noah have pleased God if he had used oak wood instead of Gopher? We both know the answer to that. Remember Nadab and Abihu. It all goes back to a fundamental understanding of the mind as well as expectations of God. Both of which Derek is lacking.
The position of the CC has been in recent years that the silence of Scripture does not necessarily mean that everything is to be prohibited in worship. That acknowledgment in and of itself is a recognition of sorts that the New Testament text does indeed maintain silence on the subject. So this means that their actual position is that we know that the practice is not in the text, but we are going to do it anyway. Sounds risky to me. Then again, I am amazed that individuals can advocate the taking up of materialistic objects and manipulate those objects to make noise, pleasurable to humans, but to a Spirit God? Do we really believe that a Spirit God wants his followers to allegedly worship Him with noise? Jesus said it best in John 4:21-24, when He told the Samaritan woman that in the coming age of Christianity it will no longer be acceptable to worship a Spirit God in the manner of the Jewish Temple. Jesus understood that the Temple worship in Jerusalem was carnal, as 2 Chronicles 29:25-30 and Hebrews ch. 9 confirms. Paul at the great pagan worship center in Athens in proclaiming the true God said that this Spirit God cannot be worshiped with the works of human hands (Acts 17:25), and the Hebrew writer said that the saints offer spiritual sacrifices, the fruit of lips that praises His name. Paul goes on to tell us that "when you come together as a church," that spiritual worship contains words that mean things, understanding, "I will sing with the Spirit and the understanding." Oops Paul, you forgot the noise makers, because we wish to delude ourselves into thinking that we can worship a Spirit God with these inanimate objects. Thus Ephesians 5:18, "Be filled with the Spirit," and how, by vocally singing to a Spirit God, literally "psalloing" the human heart, and there is the instrument for Christians, the human heart.
Where was church for the first 300 years, before they had "church buildings"? I have heard CoC ministers talk about locations where they can have musical instruments? Is church the building, or is church where 2 or 3 are gathherer together for fellowship and parayer? Where did they have church fornrhe first 400 years? There sseems to be alot of exceptions. Whatbaboutvsecular music. Are CoC members allowed to sing along to Christian music on the radio if they have instrument . Some Gospel musicians make crossover music that the worship songs play on secular radio. Are CoC members allowed to listen to secular music with or withoutbmechanical instruments? Are the members allowed to clap their hands, tap their feet, or sway back and forth to the rhythm of music?. I generally agree with churchbof Christ on water baptism.
Derek: Whatever is not repealed remains valid. Problem: Instruments were part of OT temple worship. OT temple worship has been repealed. Therefore, instruments are also repealed.
The Bible says singing in hymns and spiritual songs. Making a melody in your hearts to the Lord. This text has nothing to do with going to a building called church on a sunday morning. The text says we should make a melody in our hearts when we sing. That means you can be in the shower singing from our hearts. One thing we can say for sure Sounds from an organ cannot come from one's heart it comes from the organ. The person that's playing the organ. Is he unrighteous because he does so? I heard a man from the church of Christ say he can play the organ, he just can't play it in church. It planned oregon it's sin. You shouldn't play it in your house oh at church or had a concert Now, how's that nonsense sound? Worship is from the heart and spirit and in truth. There's nothing to do with your buildings that man built
First let me say that I wholeheartedly agree with you statement that there is nothing about going to a building on a Sunday morning. Glad to see someone who sees I the same way as I do. However, to say sounds from an organ cannot come from one's heart is incorrect. It's very clear from a brief study from Old Testament history that the very purpose of the harp was to praise. For instance, Psalm 71:22, "I will praise You with a harp, Even your truth, O my God; To You I will sing praises with the lyre, O Holy One of Israel." Either you're right or the Scripture is right, so I'm having my hat on the Scripture.
The guy from the Christian church did a lousy job proving his point about the use of mechanical instruments of music in the NT worship! Their use is none existent in the worship service of the Lord’s Church.
When you SING ACAPELLA, are you SINGING WITH YOUR MIND? You are supposed be doing so according to 1 Corinthians 14:15, as it says, "I will pray with my spirit, but I will also pray with my mind; I will sing with my spirit, but I will also SING WITH MY MIND." Why is that so important? Because "The MIND OF THE FLESH IS DEATH [both now and forever-because it pursues sin]; but the MIND OF THE SPIRIT IS LIFE AND PEACE [the spiritual well-being that comes from walking with God-both now and forever]" (Romans 8:6 Amplified Bible) So, are you SINGING ACAPELLA WITH THE MIND OF DEATH? Boasting in the WORK OF YOUR FLESH? Or are you SINGING FROM THE MIND OF THE SPIRIT? Boasting only in the WORK OF THE SPIRIT of the LORD that ONLY comes from being BORN OF THE HOLY SPIRIT, FIRST? I talk about this so that people will know the difference between WALKING IN THE FLESH, and WALKING IN THE SPIRIT.
It's why we can no longer credit our flesh for doing good and obeying God. OBEYING GOD IS THE RESULT of the Holy Spirit giving us a new mind. The mind of Christ, by the Holy Spirit. That's why it's called walking IN the Spirit, and it's why we cannot say that it is purely OUR work. It is the result of the Holy Spirit giving us a new life, a new self, a new mind. A new Spirit....FIRST!
Someone please show me the instruments in worship in the law. The law consists of the first 5 books of the Bible, which is called the Torah. In these books 📚 you will find 613 laws, including the ten commandments. Nowhere does it tells us to worship with instruments of music. Only you will find with Moses is God told him to make two trumpets for the calling 📞 of the assembly together. Numb. 10:1-3 You will find instruments of music 🎶 in worship with David, which was the great King of Israel. And God made a promise to King David that his kingdom and his throne would last forever and that one of his son/seed would always sit on his throne. Now, guess who that king, son, and seed was? Jesus Christ Matthew 1:1 Luke 1:31-33
"Where there's no law there's no sin" This phrase above is simply not true ! Its a man made construct , its man's wisdom , not Gods . Ignorance is no excuse in Gods sight . Uzzah reached out and touched the Ark, improvised by using different transportation mode , he made a cart rather than carry on poles as instructed by God , though his intentions were good, it was a grave sin, and cost him his life . Leviticus 5:15-6:7 17 'If anyone sins and does what is forbidden in any of the Lord's commands, even though they do not know it, they are guilty and will be held responsible.
Careful! The Bible does say that "where there is no law there is no transgression" (Rom. 4:15, NKJV). Therefore, I wouldn't call this statement unscriptural or false. However, maybe you mean that Derek Baker's interpretation of the verse is wrong. I look forward to watching this debate in full, as I have a feeling Ron Halbrook will comment on the Rom. 4:15 argument.
2 Timothy 3:16-17 16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work. This again has been used to justify anything from the old into the new , read it carefully says nothing about new testament church worship . Paul is simply saying, we can use all the Scriptures to teach, correct people etc , and that ofcourse would include many good examples and principles from the old testament and why wouldn't it ? For example I bet none in this church keep the Sabbath day as strictly entailed in the OT, why is that ? Going by the logic all scriptures are God breathed, then why none keep the Sabbath day ? No work from sunset Friday to sunset Saturday, thats no workers , no buying, selling or making someone else work , so no shopping, no filling up gas , no using utilities, etc ...none keep the Sabbath day, and none can ! If the Sabbath day is still binding, then it's binding on all Christians all over the globe . To bring in music is no different to bringing in the Sabbath day , the Scriptures are silent excuse just will not work .
@robertbradford9995 I am assuming your reply is towards me , can you clarify your position as I'm genuinely confused what you are trying to ask ? Do you believe music is authorised for the new testament church today? To answer your question in regards to how many books in the bible , its 66 books .
@robertbradford9995 Sorry but your communication is struggle. I believe you are asking me again ...how many books ...yet I already answered 66. Confusing, you are saying you support music in the church, your reasoning is , its not part of the Old mosaic law, thefore it's permissible today . My answer would be all the old testament is old law , as per jesus own words , ◄ John 10:34 ► Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I have said you are “gods"’? Jesus was quoting Psalm 82 , and calling the book of psalm law . Psalms 82:6-8 6 “I said, ‘You are “gods”; you are all sons of the Most High.’ Psalms have animal sacrifices and all manner of old testament laws in them , how do you determine which one to pick and which one to ignore ?
@joelacona6057 I will also go on record to say that the church is built of the foundation of the prophets apostles and Jesus, who is the cornerstone Ephesians 2:20
I preached full time for the church of Christ for 25 years and no longer a minister in that faith tradition but still a solid believer. I would like to address this debate. I believe that both men were sincere, but both did a horrible job in defending their positions, failing to use solid discernment and solid hermeneutics. There were so many verses taken out of context, that I wish I could have stopped the debate and addressed the context of each one. I'm well familiar with the c of C position because I defended that position many times, but have come to realize a lot of my logic back then was more motivated out of bias. I used to use the Gopher Wood and "strange fire" analogies all the time, but they really don't fit once one digs deeper into the text. For instance, translators had great difficulty with the word, "Gopher Wood," so it was translated in different ways. The true meaning has been lost in time. Some translations even have "Cypress trees," etc. Anyway if we do a deep enough word search, the original word may well have meant how the wood was processed or even the "best wood." But using an example that is not even in the context of worship makes no sense. The other example is in Lev. 10:1-2, where a "strange fire" was offered. In this context Nadab and Abihu's major crime was being drunk. In the Hebrew, the Hebrew word for "strange," can mean foreign or unwholesome. It can also mean something designed for a pagan god. Or they could have gotten the incense from a different coal bed. But if we're going to keep this in the right time and covenant context, this happened in the Old Testament. This was during a time when instrumental music in worship was allowed by the Lord. So the only way to used it in context today is if, we were also of the tribe of Levi and offered a foreign or common incense to the Lord. And in the New Testament there is not a single command to "sing only." In fact, in the New Testament when Psalms were approved in our worship, many of those Psalms were written for the use of an instrument music application. So silence of the Scriptures doesn't work in this type of debate. If instrumental music was abhorrent unto the Lord, Psalms like 150 would have never been allowed by the Holy Spirit. But both men failed to defend their positions with good biblical weaponry. There are 11 verses in the New Testament in regard to singing. None of them indicate that the use of an instrument would be wrong. In 3 of those verses it mentions "psalms," and as I have said before, many of those psalms were written to be used with an instrument. Another 3 of these verses are in Revelation where we also see in that book the use of the Harp (even though probably in an imagery illustration). Since there were many Jews who were at the onset of this Christian movement coming out of traditional Jewish beliefs (where the instrument was ok), there would have been some mention made to prohibit the use of instruments if it were a salvation issue. So, there would probably be a better case made for the use of instruments than not using them. At the same time, when in prison (like Paul and Silas), or walking to the garden (Jesus and His disciples) either the guards would not allow an instrument or while traveling, playing an instrument and singing might be difficult. Plus, many were poor in that day and couldn't have afforded its use. But again, if this was a matter of eternity, the Holy Spirit would have made it completely clear (in neon lights), that it was a sin to use them, which He did not. But still makes for a fun debate.
If the use of a musical instrument being used in a man titled meeting is a sin then playing musical instruments or even listening to them would be a sin anytime. The NT doesn’t talk about musical instruments period. The Old Testament tell us that David and Saul played before the lord and He was pleased. The Old Testament also says for I am your God and I never change. So ask yourself did God change from the old to the New Testament? Absolutely not, if musical instruments was pleasing to Him in the Old Testament it’s still pleasing today. I read these comments and can tell that most have been indoctrinated by man’s opinions. You cannot know God if you don’t read and study the Old Testament and understand that the only thing that changed between the old and new is Jesus Christ and his teachings and that most of the New Testament repeats the Old Testament. Organized religion will lead you straight to hell and I’m talking about all churches such as Baptist, Church of Christ, Pentecostal or whatever banner you choose to claim. I suggest people stop arguing 2 hours and wasting Gods time with such nonsense. So much more that could been done in those hours to glorify God but we chose to debate over something that can’t even be found in the New Testament. I’ll leave you with this. God never authorized microphones and speakers so should we be using them in church meetings?
Man has nothing to do with his salvation it was finished on the cross of calvary and it only requires faith to receive it. Ephesians 2:8-9 (KJV) 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. Galatians 2:16 (KJV) Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. Romans 4:4-5 (KJV) 4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
You are right about that. There is nothing a man can do to work his way into Heaven. I also believe faith does save a person. However, the Bible never said "faith alone" saving anyone. Matter of fact in James 2:24 KJV- Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. I believe we should have obedient faith. And that faith includes baptism. Romans 1:5- by whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name: I just wanted to help you see the context. Eph. 2:8,9- when Paul wrote this, he was talking to baptized believers. Ephesians 1:1- Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus: Acts 19:4- Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. Galatians 2:16- Again, Paul was writing to baptized believers. Galatians 1:1-2- Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead;) [2] and all the brethren which are with me, unto the churches of Galatia: Galatians 3:27- For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. Romans 4:4,5- To understand Paul’s teaching, a comparison with James 2 is necessary. Paul was affirming that works cannot justify apart from faith in Jesus Christ; and James was stressing that faith in Jesus Christ cannot save without works. Paul again is talking to baptized believers. Acts 10:47- “Can anyone withhold water for baptizing these people, who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?” The verses you quoted are true, and I believe them. However, you should know the history of the people you are mentioning in order to have credibility.
@@jmcc-lt3lk "You are right about that. THERE IS NOTHING A MAN CAN DO TO WORK HIS WAY INTO HEAVEN. I also believe faith does save a person. However, the Bible never said "faith alone" saving anyone. Matter of fact in James 2:24 KJV- Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." when you say "THERE IS NOTHING A MAN CAN DO TO WORK HIS WAY INTO HEAVEN" and then say "I believe we should have obedient faith. And that faith includes baptism." that is what I call an oxymoron!! Y'all attempt to sidestep the word WORK by using terms like conditions or obedience. Work by any other name is work. I assume you work for a living and I bet if you went to work on payday and your employer told you that all you've done this past week is meet your conditions for employment and obey what I needed you to do so there won't be a paycheck as you really haven't done any WORK. You need to look at CONTEXT! Jas 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: SHEW ME THY FAITH WITHOUT THY WORKS, and I WILL SHEW THEE MY FAITH BY MY WORKS. Y'all know as well as I do what the context is with this verse but you can't get yourself to admit it. - Jas 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I WILL SHEW THEE MY FAITH BY FAITH MY WORKS. Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Abraham was not justified in front of God by what he did as Paul plainly states! - Rom 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; BUT NOT BEFORE GOD. There have been millions and millions of people through the scriptures that Abraham has been justified in front of through his works. Y'all are so fixated on works and baptism that you continually disregard what the scriptures say about Abraham. You keep telling the inspired writers "you do not know what your talking about, it's not Abraham's faith or belief that JUSTIFIED him it was his WORKS". You argue with God!! The following are scriptures that the INSPIRED WRITERS wrote as to how Abraham was JUSTIFIED but of course you ignore all of them for one scripture taken out of context in James. Gen 15:6 And he BELIEVED in the LORD; and he counted it to him for RIGHTEOUSNESS. Rom 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but NOT BEFORE GOD. Rom 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham BELIEVED God, and it was counted unto him for RIGHTEOUSNESS. Rom 4:9 Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that FAITH was reckoned to Abraham for RIGHTEOUSNESS. Rom 4:12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that FAITH of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised. Rom 4:13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the RIGHTEOUSNESS OF FAITH. Rom 4:16 Therefore it is of FAITH, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the FAITH OF ABRAHAM; who is the father of us all, Rom 4:19 And being not weak in FAITH, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sara's womb: Rom 4:20 He staggered not at the promise of God through UNBELIEF; but was STRONG IN FAITH, giving glory to God; Rom 4:21 And BEING FULLY PERSUADED THAT, what he had promised, he was able also to perform. Rom 4:22 And therefore IT WAS IMPUTED TO HIM FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS. Gal 3:6 Even as Abraham BELIEVED God, and it was accounted to him for RIGHTEOUSNESS. Gal 3:7 Know ye therefore that they which are of FAITH, the same are the CHILDREN OF ABRAHAM. Gal 3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would JUSTIFY THE HEATHEN THROUGH FAITH, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. Heb 11:17 By FAITH Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son, Heb 11:18 Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called: Heb 11:19 ACCOUNTING THAT GOD WAS ABLE TO RAISE HIM UP, EVEN FROM THE DEAD; from whence also he received him in a figure. What do you know even JAMES says the same thing. JAS 2:23 AND THE SCRIPTURE WAS FULFILLED WHICH SAITH, ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS IMPUTED UNTO HIM FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS: AND HE WAS CALLED THE FRIEND OF GOD. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Eph 2:8-9 - he's pretty clear how THEY were saved - and he doesn't mention WATER. In fact he excludes all work from having saved them which would include BAPTISM. For by GRACE are YE SAVED THROUGH FAITH; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Eph 2:9 NOT OF WORKS, lest any man should boast. --- Acts 19:4 Act 19:4 Then said Paul, John verily BAPTIZED WITH THE BAPTISM OF REPENTANCE, saying unto the people, that they should BELIEVE on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. I have no idea why you brought up this verse. John wouldn't baptize anyone who he thought hadn't already repented. Luk 3:7 Then said he to the multitude that came forth to be baptized of him, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come? Luk 3:8 BRING FORTH THEREFORE FRUITS WORTHY OF REPENTANCE, and begin not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, That God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham. ---- Gal 2:16 Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but BY THE FAITH OF JESUS CHRIST, even we have BELIEVED in Jesus Christ, that WE MIGHT BE JUSTIFIED BY THE FAITH OF CHRIST, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. The Jews under the Law couldn't be justified by works, Abraham wasn't justified by works - NO ONE WAS OR IS JUSTIFIED BY WORKS as the NT makes clear. ---- Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been BAPTIZED into Christ have put on Christ. There you go again you see baptism and read WATER. You need to read about the wedding at Cana in John 2 where Jesus turned baptism into wine. 1Co 12:13 For by ONE SPIRIT ARE WE ALL BAPTIZED into (EIS) ONE BODY, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. ----- "Romans 4:4,5- To understand Paul's teaching, a comparison with James 2 is necessary. Paul was affirming that WORKS CANNOT JUSTIFY APART FROM FAITH IN JESUS CHRIST; and James was stressing that faith in Jesus Christ cannot save without works." Rom 4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. Rom 4:5 But TO HIM THAT WORKETH NOT, BUT BELIEVETH ON HIM THAT JUSTIFIETH THE UNGODLY, HIS FAITH IS COUNTED FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS. You just can't read I guess!! I've already addressed James. Paul says no such thing that works cannot justify APART from faith in Jesus Christ. Paul is as clear as a bell that WORKS cannot justify period. ---- Acts 10:47 The CoC is something else. They have Spirit filled, tongue speaking, God magnifying men lost and condemned to hell because they haven't been dunked in water. Are you serious?? Act 10:47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which HAVE RECEIVED THE HOLY GHOST AS WELL AS WE? Joh 14:17 Even the SPIRIT OF TRUTH ; whom THE WORLD CANNOT RECEIVE , because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. By the way, why don't you speak where the Bible speaks and be silent where it is silent. You said Paul in writing to the Ephesians and the Galatians was writing to BAPTIZED believers. He was writing to the Church members but NOWHERE did it state they were Baptized.
Mk 16:16 - He that had his boarding pass and carry-on luggage may board the aircraft at this time. He that has no boarding pass can not board the aircraft. If there were 10 CoC members there for the flight without carry-luggage they'd all leave the airport thinking they wouldn't be allowed on the aircraft. There are two things you can do with Jesus and the Gospel - you can BELIEVE or NOT BELIEVE If you BELIEVE NOT - you're damned then what are you if you believe? Take your pick (1) If you BELIEVE you are not damned (the opposite of those not believing) (2) if you BELIEVE you are damned The CoC always picks number two. They don't care that logically or theologically that choice makes absolutely no sense.
You guys are like the pharisees and the scribes. You focus on little things that have nothing to do with a righteous heart toward God. And forget the most important things in the law like love faith. And having a pure heart toward God. Worship is not in a building called Church. Worship comes from the heart. Singing is a gift playing instruments is a gift. Neither has anything to do with the heart being Righteous toward God. You can have people sitting up in your so-called service. Singing with or without music and their hearts being evil. 7:16
@lordysalunga Obedience to word yes. Obedience to man made tradition no. You guys will listen to music, but you won't play music in your man made institutions callled church. NOT PLAYING MUSIC IS MANS TRADITION . NOT A BIBLICAL COMMAND. If it is a Biblical: Give us a verse proving it.
@@trobacewe don’t play music because the NT scriptures never tells us it’s ok, the NT tells us to praise with our lips and that our hearts are now the instruments . If your argument is that the scripture never says it’s wrong, then I think your thinking is flawed. Should we seek God by what he tells us to do or do we seek God by doing what he never said don’t do? I would argue we are to always seek God by simply doing what he says to do. In the Old Testament you can see this with Uzzah. God never says in the OT that the people cannot transport the Ark on a cart but instead tells them how he wants them to do it. When the people try to seek God in a way that they assumed was okay because God never said it was wrong the consequence is death. David (being king at the time) will realize this and then move the ark in the correct way. 😁
@@austingregory3384how do you reconcile segregated assemblies with women speaking? Specific instruction has been given in I Cor 14:33-35 and I Timothy 2:11-12. This practice was never implemented for 1700 years. Btw…The context of Uzza is transporting the word of God. Your example seems more relevant to teaching than instruments.
You are straining gnats and swallowing camels. Jesus could care less whether an individual local church uses instruments or not, as long as they do their singing and/or musical instrument playing as UNTO THE LORD. Any saint of God should feel equally comfortable worshipping the Lord in a fellowship that utilizes instruments just as much as one that does not. All this self righteous “non-instrumental” dogma simply causes division in the Body of Christ, which grieves the Holy Spirit. So get over yourselves and get on with being ambassadors of Christ to a lost and dying world. ☦️🙏🏼📖
The discussion is pointless on its face. Why should anyone care what's in the Bible, any more than what's in the Harry Potter books or The Lord of the Rings? It's like having a Harry Potter fanbase that becomes bitterly divided over the pronunciation of a fictional spell.
Harry Potter and hobits are fictional. But seems you are blind to the Truth. Funny u quote 2 sources of pagan fantasy works kinda says it all. Sorry to tell u western civilisation was rooted in biblical teachings and now imploding because it has departed from such moral teachings on how to live
The historical records. The cosmic placement and how perfect it is. The eye witness accounts. The morals that we have. So many reasons that it is idiotic to think there is no higher being.
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God bless you more Brother Ron for clarity presenting some biblical principles, may those eager to study open their hearts to truth and obey the gospel.
Thank you brother Ron for your explain very clear in the scriptures.
Very well said Derek
Praying for you both this evening
"if I cannot put my finger on the book, chapter and verse that instructs me to do something then I shouldn't be doing that" I agree and y'all need to go back to meeting in houses as the New Testament pattern clearly teaches.
I was thinking the same thing.
Where do you put your finger on the book chapter and verse that says you can purchase a building to meet in?
@@kmsnash8Cha-Ching! I notice that nobody can refute your point.
I'd like to see more debates like this, I just wish those in favour of music in the church would do a much better job , it seems to me those in favour of music lack any real arguments.
I feel bad for people who don't take the bible as a complete book. People really think that it's all about the New Testament when actually you can't have one without the other. Example: Abraham, without him, we don't understand faith because he is the father of the faithful, and we are heirs and Abraham's seed Gal 3:9,29. Without Adam, you don't understand Jesus, who was a son of God Luke 3:38 he also was a figure of Jesus Rom 5:14 Jesus was also the last Adam 1 cor 15:45 last example David without him you don't get the son, king, kingdom, and the throne. 2 Sam 7:12-13 Jesus is that son, king, he's over that kingdom, and he sits on David throne. Matt 1:1 son of David Luke 1:31-33. As you can see, the Old Testament and the New Testament go together. it's called the bible. Yes, we are under a new and better covenant. But look at what the church is built off of. Ephesians 2:20 The 👉 Foundation 👈 of the w Jesus being the cornerstone. A cornerstone is a stone that holds two walls 🧱 together. You learn about the jews in the Old Testament and the Gentiles in the New Testament, which make up the church ⛪️ as far as an instrument of music. Let me teach you something. God did everything for a reason so you could you must follow the pattern. David a king from the tribe of Judah who wanted to build God a house 🏠. God, the father told him his son would build one, and his kingdom and throne would last forever. Jesus, who was from the tribe of Judah, who was the king of the jews and the son of David. Sits on David's throne. What's amazing is what David set up priests for the service of God in the house of God. Who played instruments. Jesus has made up priests, and we are a part of his kingdom. 1 Peter 2:9 when the temple was destroyed, actually two times the people of God would always set it back up like David had it. Ezra 3:10 and Nehemiah 12:24,45, but God made a promise to David Amos 9:11-12 that He will rebuild the tabernacle of David like in the days of Old. Also, it was prophesied about in Isaiah 16:5 question on the floor: Did God do what he promised? In your New Testament Acts 15:14-17, God made good on his promises. So, for those who think instruments are a sin, you have no law for it, and that also me our lord and savior will be in sin too 1 Thess. 4:16, he is coming back with an instrument 😂 1 cor. 15:52, the last trumpet.
I feel bad for people who don't take the bible as a complete book. People really think that it's all about the New Testament when actually you can't have one without the other. Example: Abraham, without him, we don't understand faith because he is the father of the faithful, and we are heirs and Abraham's seed Gal 3:9,29. Without Adam, you don't understand Jesus, who was a son of God Luke 3:38 he also was a figure of Jesus Rom 5:14 Jesus was also the last Adam 1 cor 15:45 last example David without him you don't get the son, king, kingdom, and the throne. 2 Sam 7:12-13 Jesus is that son, king, he's over that kingdom, and he sits on David throne. Matt 1:1 son of David Luke 1:31-33. As you can see, the Old Testament and the New Testament go together. it's called the bible. Yes, we are under a new and better covenant. But look at what the church is built off of. Ephesians 2:20 The 👉 Foundation 👈 of the apostles and prophets, Jesus being the cornerstone. A cornerstone is a stone that holds up two walls 🧱 together. You learned about the jews in the Old Testament Yahweh chosen people and the Gentiles which are adopted into God's family in the New Testament, which make up the church ⛪️ as far as an instrumental music. Let me teach you something. God did everything for a reason but you must follow the pattern. David a king from the tribe of Judah who wanted to build God a house 🏠. God, the father told him his son would build one, and his kingdom and throne would last forever. Jesus, who was from the tribe of Judah, who was the king of the jews and the son of David. Sits on David's throne. What's amazing is that David set up priests for the service of God in the house of God. Who played instruments. In the new testament Jesus has made up priests, and we are a part of his kingdom. 1 Peter 2:9 when the temple was destroyed, actually two times the people of God would always set it back up like David had it. Ezra 3:10 and Nehemiah 12:24,45, but God made a promise to David Amos 9:11-12 that He will rebuild the tabernacle of David like in the days of Old. Also, it was prophesied about in Isaiah 16:5 question on the floor: Did God do what he promised? In your New Testament Acts 15:14-17, God made good on his promises. So, for those who think instruments are a sin, you have no law for it, and that also means our lord and savior will be in sin too 1 Thess. 4:16, he is coming back with an instrument 😂 1 cor. 15:52, the last trumpet.
On using the instrument...It all boils down to "I want it...I'll have it... and I will find a way to "shoe-horn" it in with passages taken out of context and a generous amount of quibbling.
I love the analogy “shoe horn” because that is exactly what is being used by these deviant teachings in the body of Christ. Well said brother.
Very well done brother Derek! Excellent representation of scripture.
I respectfully disagree. God is a God of love as well as specific expectations. Would Noah have pleased God if he had used oak wood instead of Gopher? We both know the answer to that. Remember Nadab and Abihu. It all goes back to a fundamental understanding of the mind as well as expectations of God. Both of which Derek is lacking.
Both men , excellent teachers
True, but both CANT BE RIGHT.
I appreciate you brother Ron
Great job Derek!
Thanks for clear explanation brother Ron
The position of the CC has been in recent years that the silence of Scripture does not necessarily mean that everything is to be prohibited in worship. That acknowledgment in and of itself is a recognition of sorts that the New Testament text does indeed maintain silence on the subject. So this means that their actual position is that we know that the practice is not in the text, but we are going to do it anyway. Sounds risky to me. Then again, I am amazed that individuals can advocate the taking up of materialistic objects and manipulate those objects to make noise, pleasurable to humans, but to a Spirit God? Do we really believe that a Spirit God wants his followers to allegedly worship Him with noise? Jesus said it best in John 4:21-24, when He told the Samaritan woman that in the coming age of Christianity it will no longer be acceptable to worship a Spirit God in the manner of the Jewish Temple. Jesus understood that the Temple worship in Jerusalem was carnal, as 2 Chronicles 29:25-30 and Hebrews ch. 9 confirms. Paul at the great pagan worship center in Athens in proclaiming the true God said that this Spirit God cannot be worshiped with the works of human hands (Acts 17:25), and the Hebrew writer said that the saints offer spiritual sacrifices, the fruit of lips that praises His name. Paul goes on to tell us that "when you come together as a church," that spiritual worship contains words that mean things, understanding, "I will sing with the Spirit and the understanding." Oops Paul, you forgot the noise makers, because we wish to delude ourselves into thinking that we can worship a Spirit God with these inanimate objects. Thus Ephesians 5:18, "Be filled with the Spirit," and how, by vocally singing to a Spirit God, literally "psalloing" the human heart, and there is the instrument for Christians, the human heart.
Very nice presentation brother Ron.
Amen Brother Ron.
13:30
Amen brother Ron, you are only telling what is written in the bible.
The basis of our worship is God's Truth in the New Testament. And we do those outward acts in spirit. Jn. 4:23-24.
If that's the case show in the new testament Sunday worship?
Where was church for the first 300 years, before they had "church buildings"? I have heard CoC ministers talk about locations where they can have musical instruments? Is church the building, or is church where 2 or 3 are gathherer together for fellowship and parayer? Where did they have church fornrhe first 400 years? There sseems to be alot of exceptions. Whatbaboutvsecular music. Are CoC members allowed to sing along to Christian music on the radio if they have instrument . Some Gospel musicians make crossover music that the worship songs play on secular radio.
Are CoC members allowed to listen to secular music with or withoutbmechanical instruments? Are the members allowed to clap their hands, tap their feet, or sway back and forth to the rhythm of music?.
I generally agree with churchbof Christ on water baptism.
Amen brother Ron
Derek: Whatever is not repealed remains valid.
Problem: Instruments were part of OT temple worship. OT temple worship has been repealed. Therefore, instruments are also repealed.
I bet they use a microphone in church
Amen Brother RON
Amen Brother RON
The Bible says singing in hymns and spiritual songs. Making a melody in your hearts to the Lord.
This text has nothing to do with going to a building called church on a sunday morning. The text says we should make a melody in our hearts when we sing. That means you can be in the shower singing from our hearts. One thing we can say for sure Sounds from an organ cannot come from one's heart it comes from the organ. The person that's playing the organ. Is he unrighteous because he does so?
I heard a man from the church of Christ say he can play the organ, he just can't play it in church. It planned oregon it's sin. You shouldn't play it in your house oh at church or had a concert
Now, how's that nonsense sound? Worship is from the heart and spirit and in truth. There's nothing to do with your buildings that man built
First let me say that I wholeheartedly agree with you statement that there is nothing about going to a building on a Sunday morning. Glad to see someone who sees I the same way as I do. However, to say sounds from an organ cannot come from one's heart is incorrect. It's very clear from a brief study from Old Testament history that the very purpose of the harp was to praise. For instance, Psalm 71:22, "I will praise You with a harp, Even your truth, O my God; To You I will sing praises with the lyre, O Holy One of Israel." Either you're right or the Scripture is right, so I'm having my hat on the Scripture.
The guy from the Christian church did a lousy job proving his point about the use of mechanical instruments of music in the NT worship! Their use is none existent in the worship service of the Lord’s Church.
When you SING ACAPELLA, are you SINGING WITH YOUR MIND? You are supposed be doing so according to 1 Corinthians 14:15, as it says, "I will pray with my spirit, but I will also pray with my mind; I will sing with my spirit, but I will also SING WITH MY MIND."
Why is that so important? Because "The MIND OF THE FLESH IS DEATH [both now and forever-because it pursues sin]; but the MIND OF THE SPIRIT IS LIFE AND PEACE [the spiritual well-being that comes from walking with God-both now and forever]" (Romans 8:6 Amplified Bible)
So, are you SINGING ACAPELLA WITH THE MIND OF DEATH? Boasting in the WORK OF YOUR FLESH? Or are you SINGING FROM THE MIND OF THE SPIRIT? Boasting only in the WORK OF THE SPIRIT of the LORD that ONLY comes from being BORN OF THE HOLY SPIRIT, FIRST?
I talk about this so that people will know the difference between WALKING IN THE FLESH, and WALKING IN THE SPIRIT.
It's why we can no longer credit our flesh for doing good and obeying God.
OBEYING GOD IS THE RESULT of the Holy Spirit giving us a new mind. The mind of Christ, by the Holy Spirit. That's why it's called walking IN the Spirit, and it's why we cannot say that it is purely OUR work. It is the result of the Holy Spirit giving us a new life, a new self, a new mind. A new Spirit....FIRST!
Someone please show me the instruments in worship in the law. The law consists of the first 5 books of the Bible, which is called the Torah. In these books 📚 you will find 613 laws, including the ten commandments. Nowhere does it tells us to worship with instruments of music. Only you will find with Moses is God told him to make two trumpets for the calling 📞 of the assembly together. Numb. 10:1-3 You will find instruments of music 🎶 in worship with David, which was the great King of Israel. And God made a promise to King David that his kingdom and his throne would last forever and that one of his son/seed would always sit on his throne. Now, guess who that king, son, and seed was? Jesus Christ Matthew 1:1 Luke 1:31-33
"Where there's no law there's no sin"
This phrase above is simply not true ! Its a man made construct , its man's wisdom , not Gods . Ignorance is no excuse in Gods sight . Uzzah reached out and touched the Ark, improvised by using different transportation mode , he made a cart rather than carry on poles as instructed by God , though his intentions were good, it was a grave sin, and cost him his life .
Leviticus 5:15-6:7
17 'If anyone sins and does what is forbidden in any of the Lord's commands, even though they do not know it, they are guilty and will be held responsible.
Careful! The Bible does say that "where there is no law there is no transgression" (Rom. 4:15, NKJV). Therefore, I wouldn't call this statement unscriptural or false. However, maybe you mean that Derek Baker's interpretation of the verse is wrong. I look forward to watching this debate in full, as I have a feeling Ron Halbrook will comment on the Rom. 4:15 argument.
2 Timothy 3:16-17
16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.
This again has been used to justify anything from the old into the new , read it carefully says nothing about new testament church worship .
Paul is simply saying, we can use all the Scriptures to teach, correct people etc , and that ofcourse would include many good examples and principles from the old testament and why wouldn't it ?
For example I bet none in this church keep the Sabbath day as strictly entailed in the OT, why is that ? Going by the logic all scriptures are God breathed, then why none keep the Sabbath day ? No work from sunset Friday to sunset Saturday, thats no workers , no buying, selling or making someone else work , so no shopping, no filling up gas , no using utilities, etc ...none keep the Sabbath day, and none can ! If the Sabbath day is still binding, then it's binding on all Christians all over the globe . To bring in music is no different to bringing in the Sabbath day , the Scriptures are silent excuse just will not work .
The sabbath is apart of the law of Moses. Instrumental music is not apart of the law. Answer this question how many books make up the bible
@robertbradford9995 I am assuming your reply is towards me , can you clarify your position as I'm genuinely confused what you are trying to ask ? Do you believe music is authorised for the new testament church today? To answer your question in regards to how many books in the bible , its 66 books .
@joelacona6057 yes sir I do and my question was how many books are in your bible
@robertbradford9995 Sorry but your communication is struggle. I believe you are asking me again ...how many books ...yet I already answered 66. Confusing, you are saying you support music in the church, your reasoning is , its not part of the Old mosaic law, thefore it's permissible today .
My answer would be all the old testament is old law , as per jesus own words ,
◄ John 10:34 ►
Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I have said you are “gods"’?
Jesus was quoting Psalm 82 , and calling the book of psalm law .
Psalms 82:6-8
6 “I said, ‘You are “gods”; you are all sons of the Most High.’
Psalms have animal sacrifices and all manner of old testament laws in them , how do you determine which one to pick and which one to ignore ?
@joelacona6057 I will also go on record to say that the church is built of the foundation of the prophets apostles and Jesus, who is the cornerstone Ephesians 2:20
I preached full time for the church of Christ for 25 years and no longer a minister in that faith tradition but still a solid believer. I would like to address this debate. I believe that both men were sincere, but both did a horrible job in defending their positions, failing to use solid discernment and solid hermeneutics. There were so many verses taken out of context, that I wish I could have stopped the debate and addressed the context of each one. I'm well familiar with the c of C position because I defended that position many times, but have come to realize a lot of my logic back then was more motivated out of bias. I used to use the Gopher Wood and "strange fire" analogies all the time, but they really don't fit once one digs deeper into the text. For instance, translators had great difficulty with the word, "Gopher Wood," so it was translated in different ways. The true meaning has been lost in time. Some translations even have "Cypress trees," etc. Anyway if we do a deep enough word search, the original word may well have meant how the wood was processed or even the "best wood." But using an example that is not even in the context of worship makes no sense. The other example is in Lev. 10:1-2, where a "strange fire" was offered. In this context Nadab and Abihu's major crime was being drunk. In the Hebrew, the Hebrew word for "strange," can mean foreign or unwholesome. It can also mean something designed for a pagan god. Or they could have gotten the incense from a different coal bed. But if we're going to keep this in the right time and covenant context, this happened in the Old Testament. This was during a time when instrumental music in worship was allowed by the Lord. So the only way to used it in context today is if, we were also of the tribe of Levi and offered a foreign or common incense to the Lord. And in the New Testament there is not a single command to "sing only." In fact, in the New Testament when Psalms were approved in our worship, many of those Psalms were written for the use of an instrument music application. So silence of the Scriptures doesn't work in this type of debate. If instrumental music was abhorrent unto the Lord, Psalms like 150 would have never been allowed by the Holy Spirit.
But both men failed to defend their positions with good biblical weaponry. There are 11 verses in the New Testament in regard to singing. None of them indicate that the use of an instrument would be wrong. In 3 of those verses it mentions "psalms," and as I have said before, many of those psalms were written to be used with an instrument. Another 3 of these verses are in Revelation where we also see in that book the use of the Harp (even though probably in an imagery illustration). Since there were many Jews who were at the onset of this Christian movement coming out of traditional Jewish beliefs (where the instrument was ok), there would have been some mention made to prohibit the use of instruments if it were a salvation issue.
So, there would probably be a better case made for the use of instruments than not using them. At the same time, when in prison (like Paul and Silas), or walking to the garden (Jesus and His disciples) either the guards would not allow an instrument or while traveling, playing an instrument and singing might be difficult. Plus, many were poor in that day and couldn't have afforded its use. But again, if this was a matter of eternity, the Holy Spirit would have made it completely clear (in neon lights), that it was a sin to use them, which He did not. But still makes for a fun debate.
If the use of a musical instrument being used in a man titled meeting is a sin then playing musical instruments or even listening to them would be a sin anytime. The NT doesn’t talk about musical instruments period. The Old Testament tell us that David and Saul played before the lord and He was pleased. The Old Testament also says for I am your God and I never change. So ask yourself did God change from the old to the New Testament? Absolutely not, if musical instruments was pleasing to Him in the Old Testament it’s still pleasing today. I read these comments and can tell that most have been indoctrinated by man’s opinions. You cannot know God if you don’t read and study the Old Testament and understand that the only thing that changed between the old and new is Jesus Christ and his teachings and that most of the New Testament repeats the Old Testament. Organized religion will lead you straight to hell and I’m talking about all churches such as Baptist, Church of Christ, Pentecostal or whatever banner you choose to claim. I suggest people stop arguing 2 hours and wasting Gods time with such nonsense. So much more that could been done in those hours to glorify God but we chose to debate over something that can’t even be found in the New Testament. I’ll leave you with this. God never authorized microphones and speakers so should we be using them in church meetings?
Man has nothing to do with his salvation it was finished on the cross of calvary and it only requires faith to receive it.
Ephesians 2:8-9 (KJV)
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Galatians 2:16 (KJV) Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
Romans 4:4-5 (KJV)
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Amen
You are right about that. There is nothing a man can do to work his way into Heaven. I also believe faith does save a person. However, the Bible never said "faith alone" saving anyone. Matter of fact in James 2:24 KJV- Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
I believe we should have obedient faith. And that faith includes baptism. Romans 1:5- by whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:
I just wanted to help you see the context.
Eph. 2:8,9- when Paul wrote this, he was talking to baptized believers. Ephesians 1:1- Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:
Acts 19:4- Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
Galatians 2:16- Again, Paul was writing to baptized believers. Galatians 1:1-2- Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead;) [2] and all the brethren which are with me, unto the churches of Galatia:
Galatians 3:27- For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Romans 4:4,5- To understand Paul’s teaching, a comparison with James 2 is necessary. Paul was affirming that works cannot justify apart from faith in Jesus Christ; and James was stressing that faith in Jesus Christ cannot save without works.
Paul again is talking to baptized believers. Acts 10:47- “Can anyone withhold water for baptizing these people, who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?”
The verses you quoted are true, and I believe them. However, you should know the history of the people you are mentioning in order to have credibility.
@@jmcc-lt3lk so let me ask you this what is required to obtain God's righteousness and go to heaven when you die?
@@jmcc-lt3lk "You are right about that. THERE IS NOTHING A MAN CAN DO TO WORK HIS WAY INTO HEAVEN. I also believe faith does save a person. However, the Bible never said "faith alone" saving anyone. Matter of fact in James 2:24 KJV- Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only."
when you say "THERE IS NOTHING A MAN CAN DO TO WORK HIS WAY INTO HEAVEN" and then say "I believe we should have obedient faith. And that faith includes baptism." that is what I call an oxymoron!! Y'all attempt to sidestep the word WORK by using terms like conditions or obedience. Work by any other name is work. I assume you work for a living and I bet if you went to work on payday and your employer told you that all you've done this past week is meet your conditions for employment and obey what I needed you to do so there won't be a paycheck as you really haven't done any WORK.
You need to look at CONTEXT!
Jas 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: SHEW ME THY FAITH WITHOUT THY WORKS, and I WILL SHEW THEE MY FAITH BY MY WORKS.
Y'all know as well as I do what the context is with this verse but you can't get yourself to admit it. - Jas 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I WILL SHEW THEE MY FAITH BY FAITH MY WORKS.
Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Abraham was not justified in front of God by what he did as Paul plainly states! -
Rom 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; BUT NOT BEFORE GOD.
There have been millions and millions of people through the scriptures that Abraham has been justified in front of through his works.
Y'all are so fixated on works and baptism that you continually disregard what the scriptures say about Abraham. You keep telling the inspired writers "you do not know what your talking about, it's not Abraham's faith or belief that JUSTIFIED him it was his WORKS". You argue with God!! The following are scriptures that the INSPIRED WRITERS wrote as to how Abraham was JUSTIFIED but of course you ignore all of them for one scripture taken out of context in James.
Gen 15:6 And he BELIEVED in the LORD; and he counted it to him for RIGHTEOUSNESS.
Rom 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but NOT BEFORE GOD.
Rom 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham BELIEVED God, and it was counted unto him for RIGHTEOUSNESS.
Rom 4:9 Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that FAITH was reckoned to Abraham for RIGHTEOUSNESS.
Rom 4:12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that FAITH of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.
Rom 4:13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the RIGHTEOUSNESS OF FAITH.
Rom 4:16 Therefore it is of FAITH, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the FAITH OF ABRAHAM; who is the father of us all,
Rom 4:19 And being not weak in FAITH, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sara's womb:
Rom 4:20 He staggered not at the promise of God through UNBELIEF; but was STRONG IN FAITH, giving glory to God;
Rom 4:21 And BEING FULLY PERSUADED THAT, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.
Rom 4:22 And therefore IT WAS IMPUTED TO HIM FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS.
Gal 3:6 Even as Abraham BELIEVED God, and it was accounted to him for RIGHTEOUSNESS.
Gal 3:7 Know ye therefore that they which are of FAITH, the same are the CHILDREN OF ABRAHAM.
Gal 3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would JUSTIFY THE HEATHEN THROUGH FAITH, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
Heb 11:17 By FAITH Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,
Heb 11:18 Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called:
Heb 11:19 ACCOUNTING THAT GOD WAS ABLE TO RAISE HIM UP, EVEN FROM THE DEAD; from whence also he received him in a figure.
What do you know even JAMES says the same thing. JAS 2:23 AND THE SCRIPTURE WAS FULFILLED WHICH SAITH, ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS IMPUTED UNTO HIM FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS: AND HE WAS CALLED THE FRIEND OF GOD.
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Eph 2:8-9 - he's pretty clear how THEY were saved - and he doesn't mention WATER. In fact he excludes all work from having saved them which would include BAPTISM.
For by GRACE are YE SAVED THROUGH FAITH; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 NOT OF WORKS, lest any man should boast.
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Acts 19:4
Act 19:4 Then said Paul, John verily BAPTIZED WITH THE BAPTISM OF REPENTANCE, saying unto the people, that they should BELIEVE on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
I have no idea why you brought up this verse. John wouldn't baptize anyone who he thought hadn't already repented.
Luk 3:7 Then said he to the multitude that came forth to be baptized of him, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
Luk 3:8 BRING FORTH THEREFORE FRUITS WORTHY OF REPENTANCE, and begin not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, That God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
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Gal 2:16
Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but BY THE FAITH OF JESUS CHRIST, even we have BELIEVED in Jesus Christ, that WE MIGHT BE JUSTIFIED BY THE FAITH OF CHRIST, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
The Jews under the Law couldn't be justified by works, Abraham wasn't justified by works - NO ONE WAS OR IS JUSTIFIED BY WORKS as the NT makes clear.
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Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been BAPTIZED into Christ have put on Christ.
There you go again you see baptism and read WATER. You need to read about the wedding at Cana in John 2 where Jesus turned baptism into wine.
1Co 12:13 For by ONE SPIRIT ARE WE ALL BAPTIZED into (EIS) ONE BODY, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
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"Romans 4:4,5- To understand Paul's teaching, a comparison with James 2 is necessary. Paul was affirming that WORKS CANNOT JUSTIFY APART FROM FAITH IN JESUS CHRIST; and James was stressing that faith in Jesus Christ cannot save without works."
Rom 4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
Rom 4:5 But TO HIM THAT WORKETH NOT, BUT BELIEVETH ON HIM THAT JUSTIFIETH THE UNGODLY, HIS FAITH IS COUNTED FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS.
You just can't read I guess!!
I've already addressed James. Paul says no such thing that works cannot justify APART from faith in Jesus Christ. Paul is as clear as a bell that WORKS cannot justify period.
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Acts 10:47
The CoC is something else. They have Spirit filled, tongue speaking, God magnifying men lost and condemned to hell because they haven't been dunked in water. Are you serious??
Act 10:47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which HAVE RECEIVED THE HOLY GHOST AS WELL AS WE?
Joh 14:17 Even the SPIRIT OF TRUTH ; whom THE WORLD CANNOT RECEIVE , because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
By the way, why don't you speak where the Bible speaks and be silent where it is silent. You said Paul in writing to the Ephesians and the Galatians was writing to BAPTIZED believers. He was writing to the Church members but NOWHERE did it state they were Baptized.
Mk 16:16 - He that had his boarding pass and carry-on luggage may board the aircraft at this time. He that has no boarding pass can not board the aircraft. If there were 10 CoC members there for the flight without carry-luggage they'd all leave the airport thinking they wouldn't be allowed on the aircraft.
There are two things you can do with Jesus and the Gospel - you can BELIEVE or NOT BELIEVE
If you BELIEVE NOT - you're damned then what are you if you believe?
Take your pick
(1) If you BELIEVE you are not damned (the opposite of those not believing)
(2) if you BELIEVE you are damned
The CoC always picks number two. They don't care that logically or theologically that choice makes absolutely no sense.
He wouldnt worship in a car. Case closed.
You guys are like the pharisees and the scribes. You focus on little things that have nothing to do with a righteous heart toward God. And forget the most important things in the law like love faith. And having a pure heart toward God.
Worship is not in a building called Church. Worship comes from the heart. Singing is a gift playing instruments is a gift. Neither has anything to do with the heart being
Righteous toward God. You can have people sitting up in your so-called service. Singing with or without music and their hearts being evil. 7:16
Is obedience not important then?
@lordysalunga Obedience to word yes. Obedience to man made tradition no. You guys will listen to music, but you won't play music in your man made institutions callled church. NOT PLAYING MUSIC IS MANS TRADITION . NOT A BIBLICAL COMMAND.
If it is a Biblical: Give us a verse proving it.
@@trobacewe don’t play music because the NT scriptures never tells us it’s ok, the NT tells us to praise with our lips and that our hearts are now the instruments . If your argument is that the scripture never says it’s wrong, then I think your thinking is flawed.
Should we seek God by what he tells us to do or do we seek God by doing what he never said don’t do?
I would argue we are to always seek God by simply doing what he says to do. In the Old Testament you can see this with Uzzah. God never says in the OT that the people cannot transport the Ark on a cart but instead tells them how he wants them to do it. When the people try to seek God in a way that they assumed was okay because God never said it was wrong the consequence is death. David (being king at the time) will realize this and then move the ark in the correct way. 😁
@@austingregory3384how do you reconcile segregated assemblies with women speaking? Specific instruction has been given in I Cor 14:33-35 and I Timothy 2:11-12. This practice was never implemented for 1700 years. Btw…The context of Uzza is transporting the word of God. Your example seems more relevant to teaching than instruments.
You are straining gnats and swallowing camels. Jesus could care less whether an individual local church uses instruments or not, as long as they do their singing and/or musical instrument playing as UNTO THE LORD. Any saint of God should feel equally comfortable worshipping the Lord in a fellowship that utilizes instruments just as much as one that does not. All this self righteous “non-instrumental” dogma simply causes division in the Body of Christ, which grieves the Holy Spirit. So get over yourselves and get on with being ambassadors of Christ to a lost and dying world. ☦️🙏🏼📖
The discussion is pointless on its face. Why should anyone care what's in the Bible, any more than what's in the Harry Potter books or The Lord of the Rings? It's like having a Harry Potter fanbase that becomes bitterly divided over the pronunciation of a fictional spell.
Harry Potter and hobits are fictional. But seems you are blind to the Truth. Funny u quote 2 sources of pagan fantasy works kinda says it all. Sorry to tell u western civilisation was rooted in biblical teachings and now imploding because it has departed from such moral teachings on how to live
@@jimdee9801What's your best evidence that Jesus is less of a fictional character than Professor Flitwick?
The historical records. The cosmic placement and how perfect it is. The eye witness accounts. The morals that we have. So many reasons that it is idiotic to think there is no higher being.
Why are you even here?
Amen brother Ron
Amen Brother Ron