Why Audi Understeers
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 26 ก.ค. 2024
- There is a brand that gets mentioned a bit more often when it comes to the understeer and that’s Audi. Why are their cars known for understeer and others not as much?
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Almost all cars understeer by design, as it's much safer than oversteer for novice drivers. If porsche is like a hammer with the weight in the back, audis are oposite, someone once noted the example. But having driven an A6 for years i cant agree it understeers noticably. If anything, what was worrying to me was the sudden loss of grip on all tires when cornering and completely skidding to the side. The car only seemed nose heavy under winter mocking around, where i realised you need to kick the tail out before you plan it otherwise it will plow forward.
Probably depends on how old the Audi is lol. I own a 1998 Audi A4 1.8t non Quattro, only FWD and understeer only happens really when driving fast in town. You know, tight almost 90 degrees corners. But even a BMW would do so. On highway exits, I don't have to brake to drive through the corner (I live in Holland by the way, our exits can be a bit tight sometimes). Hardly any understeer, it is more likely to oversteer when wet..... I know, a 4 pot isn't really all that heavy so usually the 4 cilinder engined Audi's steer better than the 6 or 8 pots but still, I can outrun new S3's and RS3's in corners. That's why old Audi's are the best in my opinion
Almost all cars are FWD with more weight over the front end. Then they tune suspension geometry to cause front tires to lose traction before the rear. It's a predictable skid, for the majority who don't understand how to countersteer a skid.
Same is true for Subarus, their drivetrain layoutvis very similar.
Rwd warns you if you are loosing grip much faster and calmer. Assuming, that your feel your car good enough. Fwd also does this, but when it finally does, it gives you only fraction of a second warning before disaster. I have never owned fwd, but I drive them sometimes. I had much more ,,situations'' caused by loosing grip in fwd vs rwd, even though I drive them rarely.
Front midship rear drive offers neutral handling and balance.
Longitudinal drivetrain has gyroscopic benefits.
Ackerman steering geometry and independent suspension have unquestionable advantages.
Audi transverse AWD makes all three of these driving traits unachievable.
Let's not forget Audi's also employ 'negative offset geometry' which tends to give more understeer but in the event of a front tyre blow-out makes for a much safer outcome
Negative offset geometry, you're talking about scrub radius right? I'm genuinely trying to understand
this seems like a terrible trade, it handles worse all the time so that when it spins it handles marginally better, aw genius that is.
@@poppachoppa8956 some seed fell on stoney ground
@@poppachoppa8956 this was the exact reason the mk3 supra is dogshit to drive
The understeer is the most disappointment feeling you can have in a car. That is Why i dont like audis and dont consider them premium. It’s just a better vw , but not a drivers car as they asume they are .
Weight and Power distribution - those are the key factors.
Excellent content as always 👍
Weight distribution is the key factor when it comes to understeer.
Exactly,i have an a4 b7 and weight distribution is perfect. Car feel very good and fast.
Yeah this is pretty typical with Audi, the engine placement already spelled doom for handling. But definitely tuning the Quattro to be more rwd bias was the move. Also stickier tires is also a good idea to eliminate understeer
People ask me how im so reliably good at sliding my Audi. The secret is to fucking send it, throw it in a corner to rotate the chassis as hard as you possibly can and pray it will grip up and pull you out of the corner. Theres like no other way if you want to do skids. Always handy to have a spare car if you wrap it around a tree🤣
That’s the one thing I’ve noticed is if you can get on the gas at the right time and throw the car into a 4 wheel slide you can really shoot through corners
That works in an A4 with "Real quattro" but not in a A3 with Haldex which just plows. Put a fat rear swaybar on and your car will rotate a lot better.
@@spinnetti Yeah thats a good point. You need to use handbrake alot more with Haldex.
Lift off oversteer works for my tts
Just one word: Klausner. Go check it out on You Tube, you'll thank me later
Back in the 80's I owned a 5 cylinder Audi 90, so I know what understeering is. 😬
Used to own a Mini Clubman into which I did a full Cooper S conversion complete with disc-brakes (assisted by a Rover brake-booster), & widened rims & tyres. The 1310cc engine had oversize valves, rally-cam, twin 1.5" SU carbs, headers & straight-thru sports-muffler.
As it was one of the last Minis with the hydrolastic-suspension I had it pumped up & fitted shocks on the front, then to correct the camber I installed adjustable lower suspension-arms. The result was an incredibly quick Mini with enough over-steer to slide the rear out on corners when pushed, & if I hit the go-pedal in a low gear spinning the front wheels, then I'd drifting it sideways until the front tyres gained traction! Immense fun!!!
I drive a 2013 A4 and can in fact testify understeer when stock was immense. With some bigger, high performance tires most of that was eliminated unless I really try. Back end is fairly easy to swing out. Love my B8.5 though
I just bought the same car pretty recently. Anything else you’d suggest other than performance tires?
Quattro or FWD?
@@Miziol167 Quattro
@@jacksonweyer Coilovers were surprisingly effective
I got the cheap ECS tuning coilover kit and they've lasted almost a year and a half no issues
Those who say that simply don't know how to kick the back out on a Quattro. Don't pussyfoot it, put your foot down.
Then I don't see any BMW/Mercedes/RWD trying whatever on the road anytime it rains, or in between September to end of April... Almost as if their ultimate driving machine is going to.... Snap oversteer and crash.
If you want to showcase real understeer, go have a look at Opel/Vauxhall, now that's something else.
You're blind then son, or just chatting shit.
First thing I do after I start the engine in my 455bhp RWD car is turn everything off, which I can actually do in my BMW because they are one of the only companies that still allow this.
I drift at will round every roundabout in the wet & dry.
I haven't died, or even had an accident yet in 35 years of driving RWD cars. It's called learning how to drive and gaining skills son.
Very well put together video! I was watching some older ones recently and although I like them all, you can see the development and improvement in these latest ones... A great mix of technical explanation, graphics and original footage (and sound!) all brought together with an overall story, engagingly narrated! Thanks again Visio!
Much appreciated, Andrew, thanks a lot!
An interesting thing to note on the subject of Audi understeer is the 1991 Audi 200TQ 20v, they were a bit different, they did have a very significant front bias, but they were somehow tuned to have smooth, progressive oversteer at the very limit, as noted by Motor Week. I have one, although I’ve never pushed it that hard on pavement, it is incredibly easy to slide at speed on dirt, a decently quick steering movement is enough to make it slide.
The C1 platform wasn’t from Volkswagen. The transmission layout actually came from DKW and the platform was called f102. The first car that had the AUDI name was the Audi f103 also called audi 60/75/80/90 depending on the horsepower. The next car was the first 80 (B1)
Historically, Audi puts the the engine in front of the front wheel axle. That heavy nose will always produce understeer driving.
Starting from 2009 with the A4 B8, they were able to move the front differential further up. This moved the weight balance to 55:45. It’s an improvement and couple with the Quattro power split of 40:60. It really handles very well under power.
Note that Audi tire pressure is the same front and rear. This shows they prefer neutral set up.
BMW usually runs a higher rear tire pressure. Making it keen to oversteer. And the X drive in BMW places the front diff all the way toward the front of the engine. That’s why it is still very well balanced even if it is a X drive.
ah this is why they suggest higher tyre pressure on front wheels on twingo?
My '12 A6 Quattro 3.0TFSI calls for 39psi front and 42psi rear, 255/40R19 tires. It does have a 59/41 weight distribution though iirc, perhaps that's why.
So audi make the opposite of a porsche.
Expert,but bmw oversteer and is also bad😂. Amazing how many idiots talk about cars,physics,now days.
I have an s8 d3 (the v10 one) and i swear it’s glued on the road like on rails and on the snow it’s unstoppable and it goes really. That car has the soul
All I see is 25 years old Audi A4s being insanely quick
Congratulations on 500k subscribers!!!
I drove a few Audis, owned two A4 2.0 TDI, I drive in the mountains all the time due to the location of my hometown, I not a slow driver at all and...I never had this problem...
It's because it is a very overrated topic. People like to bash on something and overreact to it, even if they 99% of the time don't have self-experience on the subject.
I drive mine from 7 years. A pleasure to drive and never had problems with it. Also,im a skilled driver,driving fast all time. I think only unskilled drivers have problems with cars.😂😂😂
@@NachoBidesYes,these idiots talk a lot of no sense like they expecting from a sedan to act like a supercar.
I miss my beater 86 5000 quattro, it was the inline 5...
Oh, and the wagon. 😆
As a driver in nordic conditions I detected Audi`s heavy understeer early on, in fact even before I got my license. It is true as you say that many people will not detect or "suffer" from the understeer. But in nordic conditions which are slippery most of the year the heavy understeer of the Audis is obvious immediately. Hence, no Audi for for me.
Yes, in slippery conditions oversteer is alot better than understeer
@@mohis5664 , No way.
You have to learn Scandinavian flicks and stuff to counteract the understeer.
Lol in Nordic conditions.. sounds like you don’t know how to drive throttle through the corner don’t hit your breaks . I haven’t suffered from understeer at legal road speeds xD also alone can come with lsd in rear
@@MrComradebuttons Have you driven alot in snowy conditions?
I had to tighten up my sway bars to make the understeer more controlled on my 3.2 A6. I made the mistake of upgrading the front one too which made the understeer even worse 🤡
50/50 is best for pure handling characteristics while more rearwards balance is best for pure performance.
Alot of Porsches are 60/40 rear and handle very well. 50/50 isnt the best
@@alexstromberg7696 exactly. I own a 944S and a 930 Turbo Carrera. To a inexperienced driver, the 944 handles better with its 50/50 weight distribution, but if you are a skilled driver and have experience the 930 Turbo Carrera has extremely sharp handling that takes some skill getting used to.
@@vwjetta4138 You never get the same initial turn in and mid corner adjustability you get with a 50/50, Porsches, especially older ones are notorious for turn in understeer and high speed understeer.
Thats just the nature of things, physics cant be tricked.
If you would have driven your Porsche on and over the limit and the same with a rwd car with a front engine and 50/50 you would know what im talking about :)
@@alexstromberg7696 I think Ferrari said 40 60 was best or something
@@benistingray6097 I drove it on track on the limits, it handles perfectly. What I mean is a 944 understeers a bit at lower speed where as the 930 Turbo has some nice oversteer which leads to extremely sharp handling which is ideal for canyon driving and tight roads. Maybe on a higher speed corner that isn’t so tight a 944 might handle better, but then again my 944 is on newer, stickier tires while my 930 Turbo Carrera has period correct tires.
1:33 wow, look a the shock struts far behind that massive V10.
dat ting s gonna hurt
Still does donuts 😉
@@joelfrancisco3798 with a V10 even my mon cooks donuts.
I had different Audis, S4 B5, S4 B6, RS4 B8 and R8 Plus. The S4 B6 understeered extremely whereby after modificstions with sport suspension, stronger stabilizers and lighter rims it was slightly better but never disappeared. Audis with V8 engines really tend to understeer, but you get used to it, a little slower into the corner and then out with full throttle.
I got the audi TT with sport suspension 0 understeer there lol
@@ralphire77 Bro don't brag with a haldex car.
@@ralphire77 you driving a vw golf , tt a1,a2 a3 only rebaged vw
@@idokwatcher2062 what haldex? It's front wheel drive 😂
S4 B6 was amazing on Top Gear track...
Conclusion: rear wheel drive is more natural. Easier to handle by intuition. Still. Construction of a car is simpler that way. It's not what I heard when I was young driver. Yet still, all my cars was rwd, all cars of my wife was fwd.
yeah, but rwd pre-electronics was much more dangerous, and really scary if you had winter - FWD probably saved untold lives. In modern cars it almost doesn't matter. Even on the race track, I've raced some fantastic FWD cars though on the street nothing beats AWD to put the power down IMO, and 4 wheel burnouts are a hoot!
@@spinnetti RWD was something we used to have to 'learn' to be able to drive fast, and gain skills in doing so.
Nowadays modern drivers rely on clever diff's and traction control systems to prop up their inadequate driving skills.
Most people have their first driving experience with go-karts and bicycles, which are RWD, so even if everyone say FWD is safer, I feel it's way less intuitive to correct an FWD sliding than an RWD in my opinion
@@Clyman974 LOL you're comparing a bicycle to a car LOL !!!!
Most people have never been in a kart (go-kart is a phrase professional karting drivers would hate you for). Only a small number of people who drive have ever been karting.
Karts are also completely different to cars too, but bicycles hahahahaha ....
@@Clyman974 gocarts are very fun and good way to learn driving when wheels are not gripping ground good enough. It's exotic in my country to this day. Sadly. As for bicycles - slick tires on race bikes can give you a lot of experience, but a little different than a car. Still, rwd car is more natural in feeling. Electronic diffs don't give much difference. Asp and other things - not much difference. It can save in critical situation. Feeling what car is doing is much more important, rwd gives all of that.
I believe the reason why audi places so much weight in front is so the car steers better in snow, mud and ice. This is also why BMWs are notoriously bad at this.
Older cars like the Citroen TA are also great in snow and mud.
I converted my b5 quattro to rwd becouse of this. Freeing up the front axle with it's sophisticated suspension minus the weight of the front axles and minus the inherent oversteer increase mid corner on acceleration made for a very fun car to drive. I even drifted it around a bit. The drive train is bulletproof enough that it can handle the power of at least the 1.8t
How did you convert your b5 to rwd? I have a b7 looking to do same conversion but a bit on the fence...
@@BryanH0621 if your central diff is electronically controlled you might have to swap a b6/b5 tranny to do it. baisically what you do is take out the torsen diff from the gearbox and weld the worm gears together so it allways gives power to both front and rear axles. than you just take out the front half shafts. you have to dissasamble the outer joints of the front half shafts take out the innards (the balls and the basket) and install it in the wheel hubs otherwise the wheel bearing won't have anything to sit on plus the abs ring is on the outer joint so you won't have ABS if you don't do it. tha's baisically it. Enjoy your fixed Audi heheh
You converted a Audi to rwd? man just buy BMW.
@@systembolaget9044why should he?
The best way I've described driving an audi is like a fwd with characteristics of a rwd. It's different than most sports cars but in a fun way imo.
You drive an Audi the opposite way of a rear engine Porsche. Lots of people drive Audis like BMWs and expect it to perform like one. You gotta drive an Audi like an Audi and it can turn into a weapon.
I think that hits it pretty well. That said, My A4 after a few mods would oversteer on command, but my S3 simply will not, despite pouring lots of suspension mods at it. End of the day, the Torsen based systems work really well, and the Haldex ones do not (from a drving dynamics perspective). That all changed though when they brought out the new rear diffs for the Golf R and RS3 which really make a huge difference.
@@dogchainsaw3923 Tyres are a big factor on an audi, get the best you can afford
Only fun in an audi is when you sell it and buy a bmw
Yep, they have both liftoff oversteer (FWD dynamic) and that rear-lateral-push feeling typically only found in RWD cars.
i drive an Audi and i live in Wisconsin, and it's understeer is noticeable in low traction conditions, the best thing to do is to make sure you buy good tires and get the rear out sooner than you would with other cars.
a nose heavy vehicle becomes balanced if you accelerate enough through the corner
they only understeer because you try to treat them like an rwd death trap that will spin when you touch the throttle while turning
most (if not all) fwd cars need a decent amount of throttle to handle corners well, same with the audi quattros, idk about the rest
Only people who never learn how to drive fast properly would call a RWD car a 'death trap'.
For decades the true drivers cars have all been RWD, and 90& of the cars I have owned have been RWD. I have never died, or even had an accident.
Mainly because I learned how to drive quickly and corner with RWD cars, instead of relying on clever diff's and fancy traction control systems to do it for me, because when it does go wrong, the car can't save you no matter which wheels are driven. Only you can save yourself by using skill.
The first thing I do after I start my 455bhp RWD car, is turn everything off relating to stability control, traction control, etc.
@@DjNikGnashers driving an fwd vehicle fast isnt about smashing down the gas pedal either, but its much easier to regain control if you do, thats why its not a death trap, thats why its a much better choice for street vehicles, especially when most people who drive them will never care about racing them, but they may still end up losing traction because of a wet surface on an otherwise dry road
@@Paoktsisgat4 You said it yourself 'it's much easier to regain control', which proves what I said is true.
Drivers who learn the skills of vehicle control do not need the car to safely get them out of a situation, because they are experienced enough not to get INTO the situation in the first place, and don't rely on the car to get them OUT of the situation.
FWD cars are very popular with people who just drive slowly, average drivers, ones who will never push the limits.
RWD vehicles are for drivers who have skills, and like to experience the car moving around and getting lairy. Proper driving enthusiasts.
@@DjNikGnashers yeah right, "proper driving enthusiasts", like a guy driving an amg mercedes trying to outrun me on a hybrid honda civic and he could only pull away on the straights, but at least he wasnt driving a honda, right?
@@Paoktsisgat4 I wouldn't comment on some fantasy scenerio you made up, I would leave you as a dot in my rear view mirror on the straights or around corners. And if you want me to prove it meet up on Sunday and I'll film it happening, I'm in Lincs where are you ?
BTW, AMG is just a trim level, it has no bearing on engine size, you can get an AMG 2 litre diesel Merc, but if you knew anything about cars you would have known that already.
Subaru uses the same chassis layout, yet Subaru uses boxer 4 to compensate for it.
The advantage of this layout: a bulletproof awd transmission that also acts as front differential.
And although Acura's SHAWD uses front wheel drive layout, the wight balance is similar to Audi's, + the both use torque vectoring. So Acura should have the same feeling as the Audy (especially the newest once with double wishbone or the once that were 2 generations behind like TL or as they to had double wishbone).
audy lmao
SH-AWD is super underrated honestly ,it may not pull you through corners as quickly as Quattro, 4matic, or xDrive, but it's easily one of the most "fun" AWD systems out there because of how communicative it is. And it's all to do with its overdriven torque-vectoring rear-dif, which lets you wiggle the rear axle in a way the others won't.
And I'm saying this as someone who's driven Quattro Audis, AWD non-SHAWD Acuras, and SH-AWD Acuras at their limits. SH-AWD feels far more like Longitudinal Quattro's in regular driving, while Haldex cars feel very-FWD until 0.25s after you get on the throttle.
Too bad Subaru never got the memo about making bulletproof transmissions.
@@CrazyWeeMonkey Old (Not tested newer so I can't don't know) xDrive was really fun in the snow, felt primarily RWD with some help from the front.
You forgot to mention that Audi introduced torque vectoring rear differential which was very innovative at the time. So it can overdrive the rear outside wheel in corners to limit understeer. This coupled with the 40/60 torque split made modern Audi handle like rear wheel drive cars while still having AWD. You just have to bold to mash the throttle mid corner. What is cool about Audi Quattro that other automakers don't have today is that there is a real limited Slip differential in the center. It can send power based on grip level. And both axles always get power. Mercedes and BMW switched to clutch based system in their cars where the front axle will engage when needed. Kinda like a reversed Haldex systems that VW uses. This works well, but it can overheat during very slippery conditions or during intense dry driving.
You also seem overly critical of the weight distribution. Any transversely engine mounted car today is worse than any modern longitudinal layout audi. This is basically most cars today since that layout is very space efficient. That doesn't prevent those cars from being fast or fun to drive. Clever engineering with the suspension and power delivery can really mask these issues. Many cars such as the GTI, Civic Type R, AMG A class all have worse weight front to rear than a modern Audi A4 AWD. They still are amazingly fun car.
They are fun to drive, not no where near compared to a rwd, in-line, 50,50 distribution bmw or even one within xdrive that sends 100% power to rear and only to the front when needed
only with the "sport diff" which is only on the S/RS cars with the longitudinal engines. For transverse engines, the new diff does similar but its only in the RS3 and Golf R.
bro, I have an Audi A4 B5 1.9TDI 115 hp quattro avant. What power distribution does my awd system have? 50/50?
@@JohnDoe-qb6yh yeah, I think default is 50/50 and up to 75% front or rear when needed on less traction surfaces
the torque splitter on the back can only take the 50% of the torque coming from the front and send it to the outside wheel alone to destabilize the rear axle and induce oversteer. This does not add performance as much as a proper rear bias AWD system, such as some BMW, Merc and Alfas, who can send up to 50% of torque to the front to improve traction, without ruining the car balance, as a front wheel drive biased AWD does. Audi here is still cutting corners to keep cost down (as they don't need to modify their platforms to sell more cars, they already sell a lot with their basic cheap layouts)
Silly but I love them. At least the newer models have the front axle output shafts closer to the bellhousing in order to push the engine rearward for better weight distribution than before.
I’m looking to buy a new to me car( used). Audi s3 2015-2016 is what I’m looking for would that have noticeable understeer, would it be a fine daily also reliable? I know this is random just trying to get some info from people that obviously know wayyy more then I do. Cheers bro
"That 'dugga-dugga-dugga' of understeer is the sound of disappointment" Jeremy Clarkson
It is true that Audi understeers more then other cars but Quattro is still the best AWD system.
Yeah they act like suburbs awd never understeers even though I swear it’s worse the way the split power
you are a brainwashed fanboy who rejects reality
Quattro is not the best, it's overrated.
Quattro the only AWD system that you can rely on
@@r129r16pfl mechanical torsen differential quattro is superior to whatever you “think” is
i did some findings when watching old rallycross races and found the same conclusion, compared to subaru impreza, audi a4s on the same rallycross race tend to understeer. i suspect this is because audi set the front to be more biased than the rear i don't know why but it works! I'd assume about 55-65% front and the rest are rear, unlike subaru which almost has the same value but for opposite direction, 60-75% for the rear the rest are for the front.
Man,,, you’re the best!!!
Ty jsi ten nejlepší !! A při nejhorším jeden z nejlepších youtuberu !! Dívám se na tvé videa dokola a dokola , a stále mám ten super zážitek z tvých videjí !!
Rad bych té požádal o par videjí o Mercedesů AMG a hlavně o radě 55 AMG M 113 a 113 k , to jsou super motory když vynecháme brutální M 156 6.2 litru takzvaně 63 AMG ,,
Díky ti za vše.
Vďaka! K M113(K) som nedávno robil video 👌🏻
this is why people who enjoy driving don't buy audi
Always knew there was something to these car's, I've driven an old model of the s4 the steering feels a bit robust, but nothing noticeable unless you step on them.
Longitudinal engine, much of which is ahead of the front axle. Good for motorway stability, but not fast cornering.
My TT RS sure does not steer anywhere as well as my R32 AWD Skyline did. Upgraded from TT 1.8t and sure noticed the difference!
Interesting that the TT has those symptoms. It’s got a light engine so maybe the engine is mounted near the front axle?
The upside of all that weight over the front wheels is that they're pretty good in snow and retain far more traction than even most FWD hatches. Next best thing to a proper offroader. Always made me laugh when my old A4 kept ploughing on in the snow and going where I wanted it to go while BMWs and Mercs were sliding about comically and couldn't even get up mild inclines.
Thats more so due to tires than anything else :D when accelerating up a hill, the weight is shifting to the back on rear tires - RWD will get up, FWD might not.
th-cam.com/video/ZCB2dlkoSFQ/w-d-xo.html One example of such "experiment" xD I dont think tires were a factor in this one, the weight shift surely was though..
Having seen some of the Audi drivers on courses in Germany I really don’t think it matters
It does and it doesn't. Just like Porsche's rear engine it's a design philosophy that brings pros and cons. For most of us it's just a feel thing. I hate how Audis feel through corners, others love the FWD-ish driving dynamics.
On track, especially for skilled drivers, factors like weight distribution and concentration become more important. Audi wouldn't have stood a chance in the 90's DTM without the AWD to compensate for example. The same is true for modern GT3 where Porsche is really fast in the corners and Bentley have to make up time lost in corners on the straights with their big engines.
Even on my 09 subaru impreza hatch has some understeeer and a bit of numbness. I just figured that I need to stay on the brake longer in order to let that rear kick out and then press the gas just at the apex to get the rear of the car alligned with the front wheels so I can properly deliver a skid without much correction when pressing the pedal at the limit
almost 500k!
I always thought that complaining about the dynamics of an Audi A8 or similar cars is like complaining that an Harley Davidson Electra lacks lean angle. You're technically correct, but you're probably driving/riding the wrong vehicle.
With the Audi architecture, it’s not really the weight distribution on the axles that’s the problem. If it was, it would be compensated by higher grip on the front axle. More weight = more grip. The core of the problem is the moment of inertia about the pivot point in turn, which is on the rear ale. The higher it is, the more reluctant the car will be to turn. In case of Audis, you have a very heavy component - the engine - as far from the rear axle as it gets. It’s actually forward of the front axis. Component’s moment of inertia is proportional to its distance from the pivot poin squared. So you can see the problem here. Increasing the distance from the rear axis to the engine-gearbox system increases the car’s moment of inertia in a turn 2 times.
Not only that. It requires you to move your front axis to the rear, to make room for the engine in front of it. In a turn, your front axis has to generate the turning moment. The turning moment that the front axis generates is its grip times the distance between the front and rear axles. So you can see the second problem - with the same grip in the front axle, an Audi will be able to generate significantly less turning moment than a conventional architecture, where the front axle is further forward.
Altogether - you have a higher moment of inertia about the rear axle rotation centre, so you would need to generate more turning moment with the front axle. But you can actually generate less of it, as your front wheels are further back. More weight on the front axle actually helps you mitigate that a bit.
in short: a crappy technical layout that makes their cars go straight in corners
Great video! Make a similar one on why France mostly makes FWD cars :P
because it's cheaper and perfect for low powered cars. also for any driver that doesn't know how to drift it is the safer option. that said i would never buy a FWD car
I have a french car and it is a RWD :D
You forgot to mention how uncompetitive Audi S1 evo was in later group B years (85/86)
nothing to do with the video tho.... 🙄
What should i do to make my S3 8L oversteer? Rear LSD? Bigger rear ARB? Thanks a lot
Audi-steer is what we lovingly refer to it.
I take no pride in admitting it’s gotten the best of me, Audi-steer and loose dirt/gravel in a sweeping corner and I was off into the ditch.
I prefer rwd, it’s a breeze to correct
I can drift anything from a z3 coupe to a ram 5500 dually flatbed.
But once you’re sliding in an AWD car, it’s already too late to make any inputs, it’s just puckering and feathering the throttle/brakes.
That's why I loving driving the Honda ep3 and the mini r53 they are so fun on the limit, but need skill to not rotate 180 degrees.
they were so badly terminal understeering for a long time, they had to come up with one of the most ingenious awd system Quattro.👏👏
Just drive your Audi in reverse and you've now got yourself a Porsche.
LMAO 💀
Well first of all their engine placement is weird that's why the R8 is the only audi with decent "fun to drive" factor
Such bullshit. There’s a ton of other fun Audis besides the R8. You just can’t drive them properly
@@dogchainsaw3923 i don't know about the older audi since audi only enter the market in my country at late 90's and no if you have to adapt with the car instead of the car adapting to your driving style then it is more stressful and less fun to drive
@@dogchainsaw3923 lmao that's a beautiful way to put it.
As the owner of multiple Audi’s, all of this is true except one point.
If you want the most neutral Audi, get the smallest engine (1.8t, 2.0t, etc) with Quattro and tune it. No amount of wheels/tires/suspension will overcome the engine weight, but, a well tuned car with a lighter engine will run laps around anything comparable.
Funny how Audi is known for this, but the Mk4 TDI Jetta I had for a while oversteered like a mf.
This explains why I smoked a Q7 in the serpentines with a 68hp Skoda Fabia. The other guy just couldnt turn lmao
I've got a 2002 a6 avant 3.0 v6 quattro and it doesn't understeer at all and my tyres are simple avons nothing fancy but my audi handles like a dream and all oem approved replacement parts maybe mine is just a rare freak
How is understeer safer? When you understeer, you can only hope to catch grip again, before running out of road!
With oversteer you can at least try to countersteer get the car back under control
Basically imagine an evo with an anvil on the hood
My bmw also understeers if i drive like a dumbass but yes audis are more prone to understeer but can be fixed a lot with transmission geometry change.
I went from non quattro to quattro. It helps a lot
My Audi loves straight lines, I’m trying to drift swap the suspension and trans. Weld the viscous coupler, and remove the front axles.
B6 quattro a4 with the 1.8t and 6 sped trans. No issues on understeer but I'm slammed on my nuts and have wide ass konigs to help with that alot. Even on stocks and all seasons, I had very minimal understeer but that could just be my cornering habits and you can compensate a bad understeer with a good apex. Loads better steering than any of the vws I had and I lived by fricken vw man
It just works! ~Todd Howard
My Audi 100 C4 doesnt really understeer until you overload the wheels and then it will slightly slide in the rear too and turn in a bit with the rear. Its what i want and expect from a car without ESP so i wont land in the ditch or hit the tree sideways.
We can admire Audi for many things, but it hurts my brain when people preceive it as a sports brand overall.
it's an "expensive VW' brand, like that an Acura is to Honda, or Infinity to Nissan
FWD audi’s understeers but i have The last generation audi a4 quattro ultra and it handles excellent nearly everytime . Everyone must try it is awosome
Did you even watch the video? Even the quattro audi's understeer
@@ikaika7439 did you even read my comment bro i got one of these and unless you do stupid manuevers it does not understeer at all.
@@cliffburtonnkardesiyim3725 Oh i believe you for the a4. I would love to get hands on it but i wanted to say that even quattro ones understeer. An a4 can't understeer because its balanced but others like a3, a5, a6, a7 and a8 are notorious for understeer.
My B8 RS5 doesn’t understeer because the car pays attention to throttle input. If you want oversteer, just hit the accelerator and turn the steering wheel and it will gladly send the back end around.
For Leg room,they tend to put the engines 3 miles in front of the front wheels
my 80's sclass (front midship rear drive) has very neutral handling and plenty of legroom.
short hoods and transverse AWD is an evolution away from better handling attributes that Ackerman steering geometry and midship weight distribution provide
@@AlienLivesMatter 4wd/awd for off road fun, rwd for fun in general, fwd for smoke lol
sure, when coasting /lifting or braking understeer is safer, but on-throttle understeer is pointless, has no advantage
As a Fan of Audi my first was A4 B5 FWD 1.8 bought IT do i could drive to work. Then just before winter in october 2020 my neighbour was selling his A4 B5 Quattro 2.6 V6 i bought it and driving the quattro on winter i realised the harder i hit the corner and shift the weight so the rear slides and the more throttle i apply the better Angle i get and faster i can go.
In short words od you wanna drive audi fast just send IT.
IT will pull you out in 2022 im on my 6th A4 B5 Quattro i daily to work 1.9tdi Quattro and for weekend/meets i have TQS 1.8T 😂😂
I also assumed it was just due to their multi linked suspension configuration too. If you jack up and audi’s front two wheels and try to turn the wheel with your hands you will notice :
1. Its heavy as hell
2. Once you let go of the wheel it ends up turning back to how it would look if the steering was straight .
Idk if it means anything but i just assumed it added to the understeer issue of those cars
multilink helps a lot with keeping the wheel on the ground so it helps a lot actually.
as far as i know, the multilink was introduced firs in the rear suspension of the c5 a4.
most people that complain a lot of audi understeer don t know how to attack a corner properly
@@nenume00
The gyroscopic benefits to having midship longitudinal drivetrain & Ackerman steering geometry is unquestionable.
R8 might get close but it's more than likely handicapped in the same way as Lamborghini's
AWD resonates within marketing departments feeding consumers egos.
@@nenume00 Most people that complain a lot about audi understeer have never actually driven an audi. Some people are so delusional that may believe audis can only drive in straight lines. I'm not saying that they do not tend to understeer, but there isso much misiformation about understeer being the result ONLY of the front bias weight distribution . Of course 50/50 is the best for neutrality, but 55/45 is not the end of the world. All fwd hothatches that reviewers praise about their handling, have 60/40 weight distribution. Some of them are even more front biased. The legendary evo? 60/40..Yet nobody talks about bad weight distribution in these cars.
Understeer at the limit in audis is mostly the result of the stock chassis geometry and nowadays it's nearwhere as bad as some people believe it is. There is a comparison between a5 b9 quatrro and 430 f32 in hockenheim short. The reviewers were surprised when the audi did 1:16.3 vs bmw's 1:16.9 and also mention that it understeers later than the bmw. Even with the 55/45 chassis...
My A4 B6 1.8T FWD oversteers a lot with a bit fresher tires on the front if I lift my gas pedal
Opel/Vauxhall: I thought i was the master of this
not one thing i can complain about my b5
Long story short: cause of the whole layout. The engines are mounted like the rear wheel drive cars while they are front wheel drive
Slow in but fast out of the corner
Same as every other car then.
@@DjNikGnashers maybe american cars yes.
My question is
Can we tune out the under steer for the track ? I have a s5
Thanks
Stiffer rear sway bar and lighter lithium ion battery if in engine bay
Audi has 'managed' the understeer in modern cars. with clever diff's and AWD traction control systems.
They are very fast, but not 'fun'.
I love a lairy car, something which is wild and needs to be tamed. Maybe why I am a serial BMW owner.
Great point. Everyone talks about how capable the car is when you drive it on the limits, however 0.7% of time you can drive like a maniac actually. I believe that great cars feel brilliant when driving slow as well, and Audi is boring like a funeral in this area. Numb and extremely slow steering, soft and not communicative suspension, a watered down experience at best. RS modela are great, but compared to Giulia or M3, you can feel it is watered down to satisfy an average ignorant.
@@BojanBojovic Yes I agree.
I wouldn't say the steering in my tuned M140i is particularly exciting, but it is a lot better than any AWD car I have driven.
My old E36 328i was great, really nice steering.
@@DjNikGnashers BMW is not much better with steering, actually all German cars have slow steering because they generally believe that you can sneeze yourself to death while driving fast on a highway. A nonsense really, however it shows their priorities and their main customer profile. I personally believe that a fast steering is one of the most underrated aspect of driving feel simply because everyone is at around 16:1, which is incredible slow even for a city car.
Is it not mostly the excact same story for Subaru?
Can this be improved on rs3. And best mods to do
I remember my diesel a4 quattro avant and it hated corners especially a slightly greasy roundabout but it was ment for sitting on the motorway, saying that it didn't spend much time on the motorway so it reared its ugly head with the weight.
I have an a4 avant too and it handles pretty alright on its limit considering its very old and fwd
audi s3, rs3, 8p and 8v and vags, in general, mk5, mk6, mk7gti and R, never have a setup with a camber more than -0,8 centesimal degrees front and -1,3 centesimal degrees rear ,
bmw , for example , on the m2 has at least -1.5 centesimal degrees front ;
another example mercedes a45s has -1.85 centesimal degrees front and -2.4 centesimal degrees rear ;
i don't know new rs3 8j 2020 front camber value , does anyone know alignement of new rs3 8j ?
These days, half of Audi's models are rear biased by 60% minimum. These models simply don't easily understeer.
can you make an example of an audi that has 60% of the torque sent to the rear?
"In regular driving operation, 60% of the drive torque flows to the rear axle via the internal gear, which has a larger diameter, and its associated output shaft. The remaining 40% goes to the front axle via the smaller sun gear. This asymmetric, dynamic torque distribution results in sporty, rear-biased handling." (Audi Media)
These models include the A4, S4, RS4, A5, S5, RS5, A6, S6, A7, S7, RS7, A8, S8, Q5, & Q7
@@TyinAlaska can you share the source?
@@665Thunder all b8-b9 permanent quattros are like that. 40:60.
My dad owned a VW, Porsche, Audi shop on Fountain Avenue in Hollywood back in the 70’s 80’s and 90’s. The shop is still there. He used to tell me you know what the problem is with German cars? And of course I’d say no, what is the problem. He would say they are all big piles of shit buy American and you will not have the problems. My dad was a smart man.
American cars handle like crap and also have worst quality and Porsche is in a different league of its own.
My 2010 R8 Coupé does almost the opossite. She likes to throw her butt out in hard turns.
I drive an Audi S4 B8, and yes it does understeer alot. Even with sport differential with torque vectoring and suspension in sports mode, you can feel the weight of the nose of the car. in a similar tight curve, I felt more confident in a Honda Civic 8th gen. Even though it's a joy to drive, I'm thinking about getting a BMW M2.
This is the exact reason why I sold my Audi RS3 and bought a Porsche Cayman
Surely adding a rear sway bar and front control Armstrong front camber to your RS3 (presumably you had the PFL with iron block which made it worse?) would have been better ;p. But if you’re driving through the forest on long sweeping curves - the Cayman would be awesome
@@MrTroytroy yes had the 2012 model with the vermicular graphite block.
The other thing I didn’t like was that the electronic steering was programmed to ignore your steering inputs if it decided you were pushing the car harder than it liked. This could be turned of with a few button press combination.
Happy to have a first gen Cayman with hydraulic steering and one button press to fully deactivate the nanny aids.
@@MrTroytroy The newest RS3 handles lightyears ahead of the older ones. That said, that old platform really does understeer a lot. Cayman handling is sublime - no question. But spending all that money to get dusted at every stoplight by minivans gets old quick. Better to get a newer RS3 and put some more camber up front. I drag raced my buddys Cayman with my Stage II bug turbo and smoked him easily - with my Stage II S3, its not even close.
@@spinnetti I’m in New Zealand and we have more windy roads than stop lights 😄
@@spinnetti agree. I own a 550hp FL RS3 with rear sway bar, lowering springs and front camber mods, running semi slicks on the front. Short of a Porsche Turbo S for acceleration and a GT3 for handling - it does ok 😄
So why don't they change the layout?
Can say - modern Audi's wouldn't be the same without 90's Honda's. :)
Interestingly, the 911 also has the engine in the “wrong” place, but they made it work like it does…😉
Which is why the 718 handles better...
Similar to old SAABs... The same DKW heritage that Audio started out with.
Is not understeer more forgiving and most prone in fwd layouts?
Depends of the car. but obviously most common in FWD cars. Then again this is countered with lift off oversteer.
Yes but mostly only a small degree of understeer is beneficial, some cars like Audi has more then ideal.
I mounted a stiffer rear sway bar on my FWD car, it made the car understeer less and brought it much closer to neutral steering.
The car turned better on the limit, but when provoked it could end up oversteering, still with good control, but it could still surprise someone.
@@larsjrgensen5975 -that explanation was so helpful in understanding where I "could" take my handling but, since I found the limit of my sports vehicle during a high speed corner on slightly wet/damp road I'm so happy with the stock suspension. Basically that oversteer saved me and my vehicle from utter embarrassment at 4am in the morning😐🙏
The question is what is ideal, the engine distribution from an 911 GT2 RS is also absolutley not ideal. (38/62) But it is with MR Kit the fastest road legal car. The well balanced AMG GT is not faster. And by the way, please check the offical Nordschleife laptime from the current Audi RS3.
The gyroscopic benefits of midship longitudinal drivetrain, independent suspension & Ackerman steering geometry is unquestionable.
R8 might get close but it's more than likely handicapped with the same logic as Lamborghini's
AWD resonates within marketing departments feeding consumers egos.
AWD is HUGE where winter exists. Its also great if your car makes lots of power as it can put it down like 2wd can't. The R8 handling is as good as anything in the world, and the AWD never intrudes (I have one).
True, but mid-engined cars - including race cars - are much harsher and snappier at the limit because of the high mass centralisation which can lead to a loss of driver confidence and thus pace. I think it's super interesting how some undeniable theoretical facts can still have big caveats in practice due to the myriad of factors contributing to the system.
I very much agree that most people who bought AWD cars don't need the AWD at all though. The amount of SUVs ferrying children and groceries in cities is baffling to me.
Not to mention that their engine is always mounted in front of the front axle
You mean like all hothatches right?
i don't see how understeer is supposed to be safer than oversteer. not being able to steer going towards a wall or oncoming traffic is scarier than spinning out on at least the same side of the road, which at least stops the car
It is safer for regular drivers who are not skilled that much. Understeer is not scary for them and is easier to fight with. Oversteer requires quick and precise reactions
I love my rwd car!
I drive an Audi a4 as my daily. I don't feel it understeers any worse than any other front wheel drive car I've driven.
Just like any other front wheel drive, it's pretty easy to force a little oversteer by braking deeper into the corner.