Holmboe is special to me because he is really the composer that got me into classical. My taste in rock music tended toward the harsh and abrasive and I started exploring classical with guys lauded by those rock musicians, composers like Penderecki and Bartok and Webern. I respected it more than loved what I heard. Then I somehow stumbled across Holmboe and I was blown away. It just clicked immediately. It was dense and complex, but melodic and approachable. The symphonies seemed to have an inner logic and narrative structure, with beginnings and middles and ends that were not simplistic yet flowed in a way even a musical ignoramus like I could understand. I came around to the Pendereckis and the Bartoks and the Weberns (and the Haydns and the Josquins and the Dvoraks and just about everything else). But I might not have stuck with it if not for Holmboe gripping me so distinctly.
Yeah, he's wonderful. I got interested in him after getting into Per Nørgård's music and discovering that Holmboe had been his teacher. 8 blew me away when I first heard it, as did 13 - you wouldn't think that the latter was the work of an elderly composer. It's an amazingly powerful sign-off to his career.
There are so many 20th century symphonies worth investigating for the adventurous. I've discovered, and mostly liked, symphonies by Brian, Chavez, Enescu, Hanson, Langgaard, Szymanowski, Villa-Lobos and Weigl. And now I have a few more to investigate thanks to this video.
This is the kind of video I like best on this channel, one where new composers or works are suggested (new to me, that is). I've only heard a few of the Rautavaara and Braga Santos symphonies, I've heard some of Englund's music but none of his symphonies, and I've only heard of Lajtha and Saygun but none of their music. So this has given me some new areas for exploration. Thanks. The other seven symphony cycles on the list are "old friends" in my collection.
Honegger is fun because you can ease yourself into the symphonies by listening to his "symphonic movements": "Pacific 231", "Rugby", and "Symphonic Movement No. 3". There's also the "Pastorale d'ete", an early work that's quite lovely. One of my fave Tower Records memories is of meeting Charles Dutoit and getting him to autograph the 3 LPs of his Erato Honegger cycle. He looked at me with surprise and said, "You LIKE Honegger??"
Dave, great talk as always. I have a suggestion for a new series. Yesterday you made a reference to Solti’s Brahms being the best recordings he made in Chicago. What about a series where each time you take one orchestra and choose the best recording individual conductors made with that orchestra?
It is such a great way to explain it when you say "get your bearings first". And, you are clear it is not a hard rule. But it helped me to learn others first. Now, I love most of the people on this list - in particular Ives, Honegger, and Holmboe.
This list is a fascinating one and I will definitely be checking it out - it's going to take some time. That's a lot of music right there. I do know some of it. I got to know a little of Lajtha's music at your suggestion and you didn't steer me wrong - it's criminal that he isn't better known. I just picked up a box of Bax symphonies also at your suggestion (David Lloyd-Jones on Naxos) - and didn't find him all that difficult. In fact, I took to his music very easily and found him adventurous and unique but very approachable - and I'm looking forward to living with the cycle for awhile and becoming more familiar with the music. I know the Ives cycle (a tough nut for me), and Honegger (wonderful stuff), and a couple of symphonies from Tubin. Everything else on the list is brand new to me - I've heard the names and nothing else. I have some listening ahead of me! Thanks for the suggestions.
Those are fabulous suggestions and many have been on my "to check out" list for a while. So I'll take these as an enthusiastic admonition and check them put. Thank you.
I've been meaning to suggest a series for non-beginners but never got around to doing it so I was very pleased to see this list and am looking forward to future installments. The beauty of talks for non-beginners is that you can do sequels more easily. Thanks mostly to your reviews at ClassicsToday, I've already picked up most of these, though I didn't realize Englund was such a symphonist. I have some of his other works but not his symphonies, so I will have to get those.
Atterberg could be a beginners symphonist because of the really strong melodies. I’m sorry to say he has been neglected in Sweden for a very long time, partly because he was against the modernist and they had the power in the Swedish music society and was in a position where they could decide the repertoire in the concert halls.. And of course, they cancelled Atterberg. He was also accused of being a Nazi sympathizer, but there are no evidence for that and he always denied that that was the case. Still, his reputation is tarnished by that. I love his music and i’m so glad every time someone is promoting his music.
Yeeeesss! Love me some Holmboe. I had to wait for the end of the list to get him though! Absolutely one of the composers I can obsess over, to the point where I set up the list of his works on Wikipedia. You mentioned the 8th which is mindblowing, and I'd also recommend the 5th as an entry point. And some of these other names have been hovering on the edge of my thoughts so I'm definitely appreciating the nudge.
So glad to see this list; I still have some exploring to do! Have you done a video on Holmboe's Chamber Concertos? They're a spectacular group of works. Keep it up, Mr. Hurwitz; you're providing invaluable insights.
On long drives, I like to cycle through Vernon Handley's Bax cycle. The extra disc of Handley's interview makes a good case for Bax's strength of form and thematic metamorphosis.
This is so much fun! I was surprised not to see Villa Lobos on the list (even though he’s not difficult - and maybe that’s why) but the fact that he’s not makes this list all the more interesting - as I know few of these composers.
Thanks for some excellent recommendations. I already have 6 of these 12 sets (Bax, Atterberg, Honegger, Tubin, Magnard and Englund) and they are all marvelous! Will have a look at the others you've mentioned. I agree with you that most of these are surely not for beginners (perhaps with Attterberg the exception). There are 2 other sets I would have added, just to get some variation of sets outside of Europe ( so that Ives won't feel too alone here), namely 2 exciting South American sets: the excellent set of Villa-Lobos and the exciting set of Guarnieri.
No problem. Did not expect you to make changes to your list. But what is the purpose of your videos? So that people who love great music can have a nice discussion and make additional suggestions as to what they would also add as essential symphony sets or is this merely you informing us about something already fixed in concrete and we are only supposed to say Amen and Hallelujah to it.
Thanks for this series of Symphony cycles! I know most of the composers already but still have to listen to so many symphonies. There is just not enough time. And I really hope you include Nino Rota in one of your next lists, his symphonies are such beautiful works.
You are a treasure! Began to follow your excellent channel. Yesterday discovered Johann Nepomuk David's Symphonies...Oh My Gosh! Incredible! Watchafink?????
Dear Dave! Thank you so very much for making this talk. 👍👏🙆♂️ But I belive that we need yet another episode in this series as there still are some great composers left. Best wishes Fred from Kristianstad.
I was hoping to see the 4 symphonies by Roussel. His 2 is a pretty tough symphony to listen to due to its complexity. The third is a wonderful symphony, particularly the slow movement. Seeing Magnard on this list is rather nice. His 4th is one of the great French symphonies of the 20th century.
Thank you again for all the great musical pointers! One suggestion: perhaps Ives should be listed as the four symphonies plus the New England Holidays symphony?
Sure, you could do it that way, but you also could do it with Three Places in New England and the Orchestral Set No. 2. I used to insist that "Holidays" ought to be considered a symphony, but three of the works have the same basic non-symphonic form and I think they work best individually.
Of these I admire Saygun and Holmboe very much (I believe you personally recommended Holmboe’s string quartet box to me about two and a half to three years ago and that’s a treasured purchase). I’m guessing that you don’t care much for him since I’ve barely heard you mention him, but I personally like Robert Simpson quite a bit (though most especially his substantial string quartet cycle)
I've never heard Englund, so there's a discovery to be made. I've been a Honegger fan since encountering PACIFIC 231 on a Vanguard lp that I got for the Varese and Milhaud it was coupled with -- and I've always pronounced that name with a long O. Your differing pronunciation is forcing me to look this up. You learn something every day, whether you want to or not. Have you done Bacewicz yet? Been spinning her stuff and Gerhard lately...
Do you envision any recorded "clumps" of the Segerstam symphonies? ;-) Or, mayhap, a "chat" video about these? I find him challenging -- or "tough" in your terminology -- but also intriguing.
lots of these are already in my collections (many thank you Chandos and CPO), and I particularly like the Bax, Atterberg, and Rautavaara. the latter has some great variety. Like Takemitsu, he went through periods of late-romantic, serial, and then a post-serial return to a unique tonality. Of course, it means the serial works are a bit hard to take, but was worth the deep dive to find the composer behind the 'mathematics', even if it isn't something to listen to regularly. And as with all things, it is good to listen online on a streaming and then purchase what you like for the deeper listen on CD. Others on a similar vein to me - Robert Simpson and American William Schuman (one 'n'). Andrzej Panufnik and Krzysztof Penderecki have symphony cycles, but I think their tone poems are better and more well known; there's nice color to them in my opinion and worth a listen. This is not a 'you forgot' suggestion, rather just what from my collection also tends to get re-listens often.
I got 'spoiled' with a tower records right across the street from my office, and being ready to take the deep dive into other symphony cycles right as the stores were closing and being able to get big discounts on the boxes.
Great video, Dave! I would like to point out that Braga Santos based his rhythm research on Mozambican music. While Mozambique is geographically close to Madagascar and both names start with an 'M', they are not the same country. Mozambique was a Portuguese colony during Joly's time, which facilitated the cultural exchange that influenced his work.
Great list. A couple of the composers on this list I am unfamiliar with - I will remedy that. Dave -- Have you ever gave consideration to the English composer - Robert Simpson
Professor Dave, For all of us “Newbies,” seeking recommendations for non-beginners, could you please spell the surnames of the composers? We haven’t encountered them before and it makes the search after their work easier. Thanks, as always.
Can anyone help me? How can I study the eras, schools and styles? I can’t and don’t have any good music school nearby me, and I’m studying to composes symphonies! How can anyone can study this at home? Any resources? Channels? Books? Paths?? I’m very lost!!!!!
Rautavaara is unlike anyone else I have ever heard. Lush late Romanticism mixed with tone clusters. No matter how dissonant it gets, you never for one second believe any note is anywhere other than exactly where it's supposed to be.
Very interesting and a lot of interesting music. I wonder if drawing a line, though, between “mainline/ traditional “ and avant garde here doesn’t miss some things. Eg. Gerhardt, Milhaud, Hartmann, Henze (I know you have reasons for not liking him personally but his cycle is a substantial achievement), Penderecki (who you did like), Lutoslawski, Tippett, Part (I’m not especially fond of those but many are), Glass. You did those “tough symphonies “ talks, to be sure, but the format has been alive and well in and around the “avant” world as far as I can hear. Slight disappointment therefore here.
@@DavesClassicalGuide actually references to contemporaneous trends in other art forms is much appreciated. Nothing exists in a bubble. Even Baxians. I've always thought of Stravinsky and Picasso as parallel creative personalities
Holmboe is special to me because he is really the composer that got me into classical. My taste in rock music tended toward the harsh and abrasive and I started exploring classical with guys lauded by those rock musicians, composers like Penderecki and Bartok and Webern. I respected it more than loved what I heard. Then I somehow stumbled across Holmboe and I was blown away. It just clicked immediately. It was dense and complex, but melodic and approachable. The symphonies seemed to have an inner logic and narrative structure, with beginnings and middles and ends that were not simplistic yet flowed in a way even a musical ignoramus like I could understand. I came around to the Pendereckis and the Bartoks and the Weberns (and the Haydns and the Josquins and the Dvoraks and just about everything else). But I might not have stuck with it if not for Holmboe gripping me so distinctly.
Yeah, he's wonderful. I got interested in him after getting into Per Nørgård's music and discovering that Holmboe had been his teacher. 8 blew me away when I first heard it, as did 13 - you wouldn't think that the latter was the work of an elderly composer. It's an amazingly powerful sign-off to his career.
I love rock music and i looove classic too.... Check out Lutoslawski especially his symphony no 2, 2nd movement... Its so metal
There are so many 20th century symphonies worth investigating for the adventurous. I've discovered, and mostly liked, symphonies by Brian, Chavez, Enescu, Hanson, Langgaard, Szymanowski, Villa-Lobos and Weigl. And now I have a few more to investigate thanks to this video.
This is the kind of video I like best on this channel, one where new composers or works are suggested (new to me, that is). I've only heard a few of the Rautavaara and Braga Santos symphonies, I've heard some of Englund's music but none of his symphonies, and I've only heard of Lajtha and Saygun but none of their music. So this has given me some new areas for exploration. Thanks. The other seven symphony cycles on the list are "old friends" in my collection.
Honegger is fun because you can ease yourself into the symphonies by listening to his "symphonic movements": "Pacific 231", "Rugby", and "Symphonic Movement No. 3". There's also the "Pastorale d'ete", an early work that's quite lovely. One of my fave Tower Records memories is of meeting Charles Dutoit and getting him to autograph the 3 LPs of his Erato Honegger cycle. He looked at me with surprise and said, "You LIKE Honegger??"
I think the symphonies are better than the short pieces. The Dutoit cycle is my favorite.
Thanks Dave! All that's left to do is 12 non-essential 20th-century symphony cycles for non-beginners 😁. Ropartz, Enescu, Malipiero, come to mind...
LOL!
Dave, great talk as always. I have a suggestion for a new series. Yesterday you made a reference to Solti’s Brahms being the best recordings he made in Chicago. What about a series where each time you take one orchestra and choose the best recording individual conductors made with that orchestra?
That's a very interesting idea. Thanks for the suggestion. I'll give it some serious thought.
It is such a great way to explain it when you say "get your bearings first". And, you are clear it is not a hard rule. But it helped me to learn others first. Now, I love most of the people on this list - in particular Ives, Honegger, and Holmboe.
Arnold Bax! Music to my ears, literally... 🤩
I discovered Braga Santos on your channel. Thank you. I bought the entire Naxos cycle.
This list is a fascinating one and I will definitely be checking it out - it's going to take some time. That's a lot of music right there. I do know some of it. I got to know a little of Lajtha's music at your suggestion and you didn't steer me wrong - it's criminal that he isn't better known. I just picked up a box of Bax symphonies also at your suggestion (David Lloyd-Jones on Naxos) - and didn't find him all that difficult. In fact, I took to his music very easily and found him adventurous and unique but very approachable - and I'm looking forward to living with the cycle for awhile and becoming more familiar with the music. I know the Ives cycle (a tough nut for me), and Honegger (wonderful stuff), and a couple of symphonies from Tubin. Everything else on the list is brand new to me - I've heard the names and nothing else. I have some listening ahead of me! Thanks for the suggestions.
another strong list of recommendations. i've been trying them and you're right again. good stuff. Thanks for sharing your knowledge with us!!!!!!!
Those are fabulous suggestions and many have been on my "to check out" list for a while. So I'll take these as an enthusiastic admonition and check them put. Thank you.
I've been meaning to suggest a series for non-beginners but never got around to doing it so I was very pleased to see this list and am looking forward to future installments. The beauty of talks for non-beginners is that you can do sequels more easily.
Thanks mostly to your reviews at ClassicsToday, I've already picked up most of these, though I didn't realize Englund was such a symphonist. I have some of his other works but not his symphonies, so I will have to get those.
Great selection. Can't wait to see what you come up with for the 19th century version of this list as well.
Atterberg could be a beginners symphonist because of the really strong melodies. I’m sorry to say he has been neglected in Sweden for a very long time, partly because he was against the modernist and they had the power in the Swedish music society and was in a position where they could decide the repertoire in the concert halls.. And of course, they cancelled Atterberg. He was also accused of being a Nazi sympathizer, but there are no evidence for that and he always denied that that was the case. Still, his reputation is tarnished by that.
I love his music and i’m so glad every time someone is promoting his music.
Yeeeesss! Love me some Holmboe. I had to wait for the end of the list to get him though! Absolutely one of the composers I can obsess over, to the point where I set up the list of his works on Wikipedia. You mentioned the 8th which is mindblowing, and I'd also recommend the 5th as an entry point.
And some of these other names have been hovering on the edge of my thoughts so I'm definitely appreciating the nudge.
So glad to see this list; I still have some exploring to do! Have you done a video on Holmboe's Chamber Concertos? They're a spectacular group of works. Keep it up, Mr. Hurwitz; you're providing invaluable insights.
Great list! I've been a Bax freak for many years.
How’s the weather over there in Baxia ?
On long drives, I like to cycle through Vernon Handley's Bax cycle.
The extra disc of Handley's interview makes a good case for Bax's strength of form and thematic metamorphosis.
This is so much fun! I was surprised not to see Villa Lobos on the list (even though he’s not difficult - and maybe that’s why) but the fact that he’s not makes this list all the more interesting - as I know few of these composers.
Thanks so much for this list, it's just what I've been looking for to expand my listening repotoire. Thanks
Thanks for some excellent recommendations. I already have 6 of these 12 sets (Bax, Atterberg, Honegger, Tubin, Magnard and Englund) and they are all marvelous! Will have a look at the others you've mentioned. I agree with you that most of these are surely not for beginners (perhaps with Attterberg the exception). There are 2 other sets I would have added, just to get some variation of sets outside of Europe ( so that Ives won't feel too alone here), namely 2 exciting South American sets: the excellent set of Villa-Lobos and the exciting set of Guarnieri.
No additions or subtractions!
No problem. Did not expect you to make changes to your list. But what is the purpose of your videos? So that people who love great music can have a nice discussion and make additional suggestions as to what they would also add as essential symphony sets or is this merely you informing us about something already fixed in concrete and we are only supposed to say Amen and Hallelujah to it.
@@ewaldsteyn469 Well said.
Lajtha-His Symphony No.1 is part of the complete set recorded on Marco Polo included in volume 4 of the cycle
Good. Then I have it! I must have been thinking of someone else...
Ah, I remember! It was the score that I couldn't find. I had most of the others and it was driving me crazy that I couldn't find No. 1 anywhere...
Thanks for this series of Symphony cycles! I know most of the composers already but still have to listen to so many symphonies. There is just not enough time. And I really hope you include Nino Rota in one of your next lists, his symphonies are such beautiful works.
I hope you checked out the Rota playlist...
@@DavesClassicalGuide Yes, I did, thanks.
You are a treasure! Began to follow your excellent channel. Yesterday discovered Johann Nepomuk David's Symphonies...Oh My Gosh! Incredible! Watchafink?????
Dear Dave!
Thank you so very much for making this talk. 👍👏🙆♂️ But I belive that we need yet another episode in this series as there still are some great composers left.
Best wishes Fred from Kristianstad.
Greetings from the planet Baxia! Arnoldus Baxias is one of my favorites!
I was hoping to see the 4 symphonies by Roussel. His 2 is a pretty tough symphony to listen to due to its complexity. The third is a wonderful symphony, particularly the slow movement. Seeing Magnard on this list is rather nice. His 4th is one of the great French symphonies of the 20th century.
Roussel is on the beginners list.
@@DavesClassicalGuideyes I noticed that. Glad to see it there
Amazing video as always dave! Are we getting a 21st century list? I sure do hope so!
Are there any to talk about?
@@DenianArcoleo my exact question, so who better to answer that than Dave!
Hi Dave - now you've done symphony cycles, what about a list of "best twos and threes" (i.e. Elgar, Walton, Rachmaninov, Barber etc)?
or "Composers who wrote in a particular form multiple times, but only one of those attempts could be called a success"?
Bravo! (And I have a lot of listening to do…).
Thank you again for all the great musical pointers!
One suggestion: perhaps Ives should be listed as the four symphonies plus the New England Holidays symphony?
Sure, you could do it that way, but you also could do it with Three Places in New England and the Orchestral Set No. 2. I used to insist that "Holidays" ought to be considered a symphony, but three of the works have the same basic non-symphonic form and I think they work best individually.
Of these I admire Saygun and Holmboe very much (I believe you personally recommended Holmboe’s string quartet box to me about two and a half to three years ago and that’s a treasured purchase). I’m guessing that you don’t care much for him since I’ve barely heard you mention him, but I personally like Robert Simpson quite a bit (though most especially his substantial string quartet cycle)
I've never heard Englund, so there's a discovery to be made. I've been a Honegger fan since encountering PACIFIC 231 on a Vanguard lp that I got for the Varese and Milhaud it was coupled with -- and I've always pronounced that name with a long O. Your differing pronunciation is forcing me to look this up. You learn something every day, whether you want to or not.
Have you done Bacewicz yet? Been spinning her stuff and Gerhard lately...
Do you envision any recorded "clumps" of the Segerstam symphonies? ;-)
Or, mayhap, a "chat" video about these? I find him challenging -- or "tough" in your terminology -- but also intriguing.
Hey, Dave. Leonard Bernstein and Ives' Second Symphony might make a good selection for They Gave the Premiere and Made Recordings. :)
lots of these are already in my collections (many thank you Chandos and CPO), and I particularly like the Bax, Atterberg, and Rautavaara. the latter has some great variety. Like Takemitsu, he went through periods of late-romantic, serial, and then a post-serial return to a unique tonality. Of course, it means the serial works are a bit hard to take, but was worth the deep dive to find the composer behind the 'mathematics', even if it isn't something to listen to regularly.
And as with all things, it is good to listen online on a streaming and then purchase what you like for the deeper listen on CD.
Others on a similar vein to me - Robert Simpson and American William Schuman (one 'n'). Andrzej Panufnik and Krzysztof Penderecki have symphony cycles, but I think their tone poems are better and more well known; there's nice color to them in my opinion and worth a listen. This is not a 'you forgot' suggestion, rather just what from my collection also tends to get re-listens often.
I got 'spoiled' with a tower records right across the street from my office, and being ready to take the deep dive into other symphony cycles right as the stores were closing and being able to get big discounts on the boxes.
Great video, Dave!
I would like to point out that Braga Santos based his rhythm research on Mozambican music. While Mozambique is geographically close to Madagascar and both names start with an 'M', they are not the same country. Mozambique was a Portuguese colony during Joly's time, which facilitated the cultural exchange that influenced his work.
But Madagascar has lemurs...thanks.
Great list. A couple of the composers on this list I am unfamiliar with - I will remedy that.
Dave -- Have you ever gave consideration to the English composer - Robert Simpson
Yes.
Professor Dave, For all of us “Newbies,” seeking recommendations for non-beginners, could you please spell the surnames of the composers? We haven’t encountered them before and it makes the search after their work easier. Thanks, as always.
If you look in the description of the video, you will see a list of all the composers mentioned.
Can anyone help me? How can I study the eras, schools and styles? I can’t and don’t have any good music school nearby me, and I’m studying to composes symphonies! How can anyone can study this at home? Any resources? Channels? Books? Paths?? I’m very lost!!!!!
Rautavaara is unlike anyone else I have ever heard. Lush late Romanticism mixed with tone clusters. No matter how dissonant it gets, you never for one second believe any note is anywhere other than exactly where it's supposed to be.
Romantic era melodies. Modern era random noise "harmonies".
Very interesting and a lot of interesting music. I wonder if drawing a line, though, between “mainline/ traditional “ and avant garde here doesn’t miss some things. Eg. Gerhardt, Milhaud, Hartmann, Henze (I know you have reasons for not liking him personally but his cycle is a substantial achievement), Penderecki (who you did like), Lutoslawski, Tippett, Part (I’m not especially fond of those but many are), Glass. You did those “tough symphonies “ talks, to be sure, but the format has been alive and well in and around the “avant” world as far as I can hear. Slight disappointment therefore here.
You discussed Kandinsky's stylistic evolution but I think you meant Piet Mondrian
It fits both actually, Kandinsky started out as a Secessionist, figurative painter with a wonderful series of illustrations on Russian fairy tales.
Damn! You're right of course. I should stick to music. I love them both and there's no excuse for mixing them up.
@@DavesClassicalGuide actually references to contemporaneous trends in other art forms is much appreciated. Nothing exists in a bubble. Even Baxians. I've always thought of Stravinsky and Picasso as parallel creative personalities