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HS49 Harrison 140 lathe spindle bearings adjustment
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 5 ม.ค. 2021
- Having decided my spindle bearings were too tight I adjusted them, retested the deviation and then checked the oil flow to the bearings.
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i think your video is going to help me inspect my own spindle bearings. different lathe, still a similar situation. thanks for sharing.
Thanks, just backing off the lock nut that fraction has made a big difference. I can run the lathe at 1500 and the spindle does not get hot now.
Well, I have to say Paul that was EXTREMELY interesting watching second time around, even more so than the first time. The gearbox on the 140 is identical to my Harrison Mill, headstock bearings, adjustment method, the lot. I am going to send you an email about it all. Thanks!
Hi Carl, I have emailed back. The Harrison L5/L5A/140 manual shows early and later Timken bearings - probably upgraded when they increased the swing. Cheers
@@HaxbyShed Spot on Paul I have your email I will study it later on. Thank you.
Very nice video . I have just tightened my spindle bearings as I was getting chatter parting off . Like you it took very little movement of the nut to sort things out . The oil speck for the gear box was all they has at the time . Modern synthetic ATF is the way I went
Nice to have your subscription. I've watched many of your videos. When I got the H140 I had plenty to think about so I stuck with the original hydraulic oil. Yes in the future I may move to high performance ATF - I saw that's what you used. Cheers
Hi Haxby just found your channel, interesting content and great work on your Harrison 140 lathe.
Very impressive result seeing the oil system not really functioning properly on the low RPM spindle
speeds. The clutch is a winner when working close to the chuck. Enjoyed and subscribed. Tony
Hi Tony, I've ordered a small gear pump from China and hope to rig up an oil feed. I think the designers either worked on an assumption without proof - or they decided it did not matter at low speeds. I think that basic design of the oil feed has been on Harrison models since the 1940s. A clutch and a brake were must-haves when I was looking for a lathe. I saw a comment once where somebody said something like "I can't tell you exactly why you need a clutch but if you have had one you would never want to work without one".
Tony, I just had a look at your channel and picked out the vid on the press formers. I may need to make some bent things for a future project (possibly bending square bar) and it set me thinking - Thanks.
@@HaxbyShedThe headstock main bearing lubrication was the same on my 1949 L5. I'll be interested to see how you rig the oil pump up, great idea. I agree with your last comment apart from I know why. Imagine driving a car without a clutch, from full speed to no speed using heavy braking. You loose the fine control. I think Harrison slipped up dropping the clutch feature on their newer models. It's has the same advantages as what they call soft start on modern power tools and allows you great control if you are jogging/creeping up to a shoulder by or very close the chuck.
@@HaxbyShed Thanks for viewing. I know you'll make a nice job of them by all your other work you show.
Just a follow-up on this video for everyone, today I ran the lathe at 1500rpm for 15 mins and it got only very slightly warm. Before backing off the spindle bearings, as shown in the video, it would get very hot after 15 mins and I would have to let it cool.
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Hi czx asd, 한국어로 첫 댓글을 남겨주셔서 감사합니다! (Thank you for my first comment in Korean!). 영상이 마음에 드셨다니 다행입니다 (I am glad you enjoyed the video). Kind regards.
thanks for sharing your learning journey! :)
Hi Art, it is some months since I made those adjustments and I am very happy with them. Spindle spins freely and no chatter or vibration under heavy cutting. It just needed backing off a very small amount. Cheers
@@HaxbyShed Thank you!
I figured your adjustment had fixed it. Btw, maybe you could add a small auxiliary oil pump to lube the bearings at lower rpms.... :)
Thank you, I have an L6 and this will help.
Thank you Carl. It took me some time to realise the bearings were over-adjusted tight. The clue was the headstock getting hot when I ran at 1500 for any length of time. Backing off a shade did the trick - it did not take much. Since then no heating but also no chatter so I think I got them about right. Cheers
hi, i run a colchester student with gamet bearings and also had to deal with spindle bearing issues; pls. bear in mind that a too thick oil will cause bearings warming up since the bearing needs to struggle with displacing the heavy oil in the races; this is why in milling machines and e.g. the colchester low viscosity oil (usually atf oil) is used; imho taper roller bearings need a slight amount of preload to avoid chatter and run with high precision; in german tool room lathes (e.g. weiler) a 30 to 50 micron (mm) lateral play is speciifed; you best measure that with a dial indicator at the spindle nose and pushing the spindle to and fro from the far end; just my 5c; great channel, thxs for the good content, keep going :-)
I think you are right, the proper way is to measure end float. On my lathe the other end of the spindle furthest from the chuck is mounted on a deep groove ball race. Even with the spindle nose taper bearings locking rings backed right off I could not feel any spindle endfloat, presumably due to the ball race not allowing any endfloat movement.... not sure. As for the oil ...... so far I've stuck with the hydraulic oil specified by Harrison but as Doubleboost said it's all they had back in the day and ATF may be better these days. But I don't think the original oil will do any harm for now. Many of the gearbox gears run on sleeves and bushings rather than race bearings. So I'm being conservative for the moment. Cheers
@@HaxbyShed hi; single groove ball bearings have end float built in; your absence of end float may come from the taper roller bearing inner races being interference fitting on the spindle (my experience with my colchester) :-) i think your current adjustement is fine if not a but on the lose side ...; wrt to no bearing lubrication at low rpm - this comes from the high oil viscosity - with lower viscosity oil will start splashing earlier ... - and for the peace of your mind - at low rpms the bearings dont need constant oil supply; take care
I am adjusting my spindle bearings as I am getting chatter while parting. This info has been very useful. Btw rolling element bearings need very little lubrication and so I would not get too excited about the simple lubrication system. The machine was designed to be used with basic mineral oil. The advantages of synthetic oil (mainly higher temp capability, resistance to oxidation and varnishing) would not give you any advantages in this duty. The bearings are still in good shape after 60 years. To me that says the designers got it right!
Hi MSatBotG (what can I call you for short?), glad you found it useful. I was on a learning curve. I did add a pump and a lubrication system - I might still do it again but I would have made it simpler. I think no oil is still 'no oil' even if it has lasted. That can only be because it's been mostly used on the high range. Cheers
This is very informative I may try the same with my Harrison L5. I question lubrication to front bearings also especially at low speeds.
Ah that would be interesting, to hear about an L5 vs the 140. I can see from the manual that the oil feeds to the front spindle bearings in a similar way. Cheers
@@HaxbyShed yes albeit without the magnet just above. I like that idea I will have to conjure something up as the headstock casting is not straight lines. I seen the oil go to the groove before the actual hole to feed the bearings. The L5 lacks the oil track groove which is somewhat worrying me more.
Hi Monster G. The L5 has exactly the same type of splash feed so it will have the same problem.
The headstock gear arrangement looks very similar/identical, I used to own a L5. Tony
@@eyuptony thanks Tony, it’s probably worse in the l5’s case as it has no groove to catch the oil amounting to even less lubrication then the 140. Another problem I found is the oil seems to leave the headstock from the back bearing wall. It travels down the gear change area and eventually on to the floor. This I believe is down to bad mating surfaces between the head stock cover and the headstock rear bearing wall lip.
That was really good and enjoyable, I had the same damaged gear as my 140, it came from a college so not surprised. I did remove it and cleaned it up as it seem to hum a bit . I may take a look at my bearings as the rotation is similar to your lathe. Wondered if fitting an oil drip feed to the bearing where the magnet is and moving the original magnet further up the gully so to speak may have to have a bit of a think. Keep the posts coming.
Hi Colin, thanks for the comment. I will monitor my bearings over the coming weeks - I thinks it's too early to judge the effect yet and I need to work with it for a while. I'm thinking about fitting a small electric gear pump in the pulley side/end casing and running an oil feed to both ends of the spindle and the clutch bearing. Maybe a future project. Cheers
Very interesting, looks like the “warm up” process needs to include a blast at 250+ and a quick blast before shut-down
Yes Roland I think so. Later I fitted an electric pump and I just run that for a minute before starting if the lathe has been standing a while and I'm doing stuff on the low range (e.g. a lot of 'long pitch' screw cutting). Cheers
There is one thing that you can do when adjusting your bearings is to give the bearing touching collar a fraction more pre-load, the finger tighten the locking collar to it then holding the locking collar still, tighten the bearing collar to the locking collar. This ensures that the bearing does not get any extra pre-load as you described due the play between the threads of the collars and the spindle thread. The reason for the extra pre-load I described is to allow for the tightening of the bearing collar AWAY from the bearing thus slackening the pre-load. You mentioned John "Doubleboost" Mills in your video and he spins his chuck with the chuck key and as you said gets a good rotation going. I wonder if the amount of rotation has changed since he tightened his bearings a couple of months ago to reduce chatter when parting off. It might be an idea for you to contact him and ask him if he has noticed any difference.
I was extremely surprised to see that the taper roller bearings got no lubrication whatsoever when in low range. Obviously in high range the splash lubrication works pretty well but I suppose the Harrison designers got it right, otherwise in industry when I expect low Deangelo was in use a great deal of the time and under a pretty heavy load at times. You would think that would knock out the spindle bearings in fairly short order, but they have stood the test of time otherwise that particular lathe would have gained the reputation of a poor one because of the need for spindle bearings replacement on a regular basis. But clearly that isn't the case and I for one would be happy to own a Harrison 140.
Hi, I imagine my spindle bearings are original although I've no way to prove it. They seem to be running happily now but I'm going to do some heavy cutting tests soon and that will be a decent load test. You will see in the video I'm posting tonight that I've invested in the same oil that John did and also I've bought a small gear pump which I'm testing with a view to rigging up a pumped feed to the bearings. Do I really need to do that (?), well it's an experiment and I'd still feel better if there was a feed at low speed. Maybe the thinner synthetic oil will give me that without the pump - we'll see.
The manual on my 2 ton Runmaster suggests a tiny amount of spindle bearing preload.
Thank you BE, it's run very smoothly since I made the adjustment but I always keep alert to any chance of chatter. Cheers
The transparant cover is a very interesting experiment. It's bizar that there's no oil flow at low speed. It should, even when the oil is cold.
Hi thanks for the comment. I think the lesson is always confirm everything for yourself. But it's worked ok for 50 years and above 200rpm it's ok even with thick oil in the winter.
Must admit to only just finding your channel, I'm going to be stalking round it for a while.
It did occur to me that running your spindle at 2 times its rated speed might have something to do with it getting hot??? I was thinking of sticking an inverter on my old Colchester round head triumph, but the thought that a 40% increase in speed would double the centrifugal forces put me off the idea.
I'm just getting myself ready for retirement and am setting up the workshop accordingly. Envious of your "shed", my wife keeps asking why she cannot get her car in the garage. Its been a workshop for a while now!
Hi Bill, browsing is fine 😁. Well Harrison made the 140 with various spindle speeds up to 2000 rpm and the 140 had beefed up bearings on the gearbox input shaft - compared with other earlier models. My top speed is now 1500 rpm so well within the design max. Since I backed off the spindle taper bearings just a fraction they run cool as anything. Someone was 'over maintaining' the lathe and had them too tight. My supply is single phase and the lathe was 3 phase so an inverter was the best choice. Rotary converters are expensive and noisy, and static converters are .... well I can't say it. The inverter gives you speed control and torque control. You can limit the output to 50Hz/60Hz so top speed is just the normal motor speed. I use the gearbox for big shifts and run my motor between 25Hz and 50Hz. Tell her you will get a carport (if you have room). Cheers
Once again many thanks for your efforts - it does help other beginner owners of the 140 a lot.
One thing to ask - are you using the correct oil - I use ATF (for older gearboxes) it is a lite weight oil and with my cover off and spinning the chuck the oil does fling itself about a lot more than yours is doing.
Also the spindle bearings would also be lubricated by other means not just the slot across the top. I would imagine the oil would track along the main shaft and drip into the bearing.
Keep up the great work - any news on the oil nipple modification video.
Hi Steve, thanks for the comment. Yes it is quite thick hydraulic oil and the lathe was close to freezing. The plate on the back of the m/c says Tellus 33 and ISO 68 is the modern equivalent apparently. But I agree that with high tech oils these days something lighter may be suitable. The transparent cover is still on so over the coming days/weeks I will watch to see if the oil creeps along the spindle to the bearing at low rpm - I never checked that. The screw cutting gearbox oil nipple mod vid is in my queue .... but no firm date. You may notice I made up some brass fittings and my idea was to pipe them up together for a common feed from a small reservoir but I've given that us as over complicated and not very practical.
Got a 15 inch Harrison that relies on splash lubrication, and similar at low speeds. Simplest thing I came up with was put more oil in to top of sight glass........oil everywhere now even on lowest speed. Can see why DSG, Colchester etc fitted oil pumps, on DSG 17x72 got oil pump for screw cutting and saddle gearbox
Hi Steve, yes on the Harrison I think lubrication is the weak point. I think also it's only a matter of time before I switch to (thinner) ATF oil and also I have bought a small gear pump which may be the subject of a future video - moving closer to the top of my list.
Would a friction reducer like slick 50 or molyslip benefit lubrication?
Hi John, after quite a bit of testing with different oils I decided to stick with the oil specified by Harrison (Tellus 33/ISO68), without any additives. Cheers
Interesting video. Doesn't the oil level rise above the bottom of the bearings like in the lathes I have? I would think that the splashed oil is to supplement the oil from the bottom and since high speeds keep more of the supply suspended making sure the bearings are not starved for lube. I have only had one lathe with instructions on setting up the the preload. It said after finger tightening up the nut go 1/8" radially tighter. Not a whole lot like you discovered makes a big difference.
Hi, the oil level in the gearbox is only about 1 1/4 inch (32mm) and when the oil is cold the oil is pushed to the back of the gearbox in forward direction and it seems to stay more level in reverse direction. The gearbox only takes about 2L (3.5 imp pints, 2.1 US quarts). I will check again as I still have the transparent cover on but I don't think the oil washes on to the spindle bearings low down. I may try some Auto Transmission Fluid, which several people have recommended, which is much thinner and see how that goes. I'm happy with the bearings now - the spindle is smoother, quieter, and does not get hot at high rpm. Soon I am going to try some 'heavy cut' experiments and see how that goes. I'll put those in a video. Sometime I'll have to decide if I'm metric or imperial - at the moment I'm inconsistent :-) Cheers
just a thought but if its that cold in your shop perhaps a thinner oil will sling better. also would be a good thing to make sure oil is compatible with brass and bronze for your shifter forks. Dave
Hi Dave, the oil is the stuff recommend for the machine but I'm leaning towards ATF, for a test at least. The gears on the lay shaft run on bronze bushes so yes it's a factor. Reading up on the subject, I've discovered that oil technology is very complex. Cheers
I appreciate this is a totally different set up but If it helps.... I have an 1940 Atlas 10F with a Timken bearings headstock, The Atlas manual details a procedure to ensure the correct pre load on the bearings....
" Run the lathe between thirty minutes and an hour to warm
up the spindle (a temperature rise of 50° F increases the
spindle about .002 inch between bearings). Then loosen the set
screw A (in Fig. 11) on the thrust nut, B, at the extreme left
end of the spindle, C, and turn it up to a point where no play
can be detected in the spindle. Advance this thrust nut 1/ 16 turn
past that point (equal to two teeth on the spindle gear ) in order
to provide the correct pre-load. Tighten the set screw."
Thank you for posting this. I'd seen this when I was doing my research but others may not so it's good to have it here. Cheers.
The bearing at low speed could be getting oil splashing directly on the bearing and this might be sufficient for low speed operation where the bearing doesn't fling the oil off as fast.
Hi Curtis, I did check for splash on low speed and honestly there was nothing. But too be fair it's lasted since 1970 - maybe it's never done much work on the low range (most lathe's don't). Cheers
Hi can you remember where you got your hook spanner from please as I have got to strip my headstock down and do not know the size of them .look on internet and the manual but no look thank you.
Hi Anthony you really need two Harrison WR20 'C' keys. I got one with the machine and one from GandMtools for something like £5 plus postage. They have a website and maybe you could call them (01903 892510). They don't show any at the moment. Cheers
I noticed that the large gear wasnt throwing any oil when it was in its ferthest left position. I wonder if there us a missing oil feed for that gwar in that position?
No I think all these Harrison lathes are the same. I think they rely on some oil left in the bearing when it's on the low range. I fitted an electric pump to lubricate the spindle bearings, when I turn a knob switch. If I'm doing a lot of work on the low range, like threading on a large diameter, I will give that pump a burst before I start. You will see I did a number of videos on that. Cheers
When your bearings were getting hot, were they making a weird noise?
Hi KQ, no I did not notice any strange noises. They only got hot at top speed (1500 rpm), but then they got hot quite quickly. Cheers
The low speed is when the bearing as the most heavy loaded, because that the highest torque the system can produce. Not the best system. The last time I was using one of those was in the late 60s at Technical Collège. Did not take any prisoners' with those, as at work was using high horse power Dean Smith and Grace lathes, got to get the job done bonuses !!!
Hi, I think mine had a few lumps knocked out of it in a college. :-) Must have been nice to use a DSG. Cheers.
I am surprised that it was not built with a oiler tube of some sort running directly to the spindle bearings.
Hi, yes I agree. It does seem to be an oversight on an otherwise very well made lathe. I suppose somebody designed it that way many decades ago and saw no reason to change it. Earlier models had the same splash arrangement dating back to the 1940s I think. Cheers
check double boosts video he addresses the issue of yellow metals with what he used. look pretty thin but then i don't know the temperature there.
Hi thanks for the pointer. I watched the Doubleboost episode again last evening. He used Royal Purple and yes that checks out as yellow metal compatible. So that might be what I go for. They do MaxGear or Synchromax so I would have to decide. Doubleboost is about 80 miles North of me I'd guess. But maybe he has a better heater in his workshop? :-) Cheers
I have a clauing 4912
That say with a face plate mounted you should be able to spin face plate 1 full turn with a good spin.
It is a much lighter duty lathe compared to yours.
Just some input.
Thanks. I will do some 'heavy' cut tests to make sure the spindle does not vibrate/chatter. Cheers.
Puede ser muy interesante lo que dices pero yo o hablo ingles, podrías si puedes sustitular en tus videos lo que dices, grasias, se ve que sabes.mucho de tornos saludos uen trabajo
Hola, puedes activar los subtítulos (cc) y luego en 'configuración' puedes elegir la traducción del inglés al español. Luego tendrás subtítulos en español. Espero que eso ayude.
Nice one Haxby - you on Instagram yet?
I'm not sure if you are pulling my leg about Instagram :-) I've not thought about it. Cheers
@@HaxbyShed Massive instamachinists community on there with most of all the old favourites present. I ain't got time to to do vids for you tube but quick pics and short vids are easy on Instagram. I will do a deflection test on my 140 so you can compare (when I get a chance) - BTW I can spin my chuck 3/4 of a turn with a gearbox full of oil if that's any help. If you decide to use Instagram use #tags so people can find stuff eg #manualmachinist #harrisonlathe #homeworkshop. 👍🏻
Yeah because serious machine has a oil pump..
Yes Sir, you are correct a serious machine would have an oil pump. These lathes were really made for apprentice workshops and technical colleges rather than production shops. Regards