Trent Horne's Question on 'Who's the Author of Sin?'
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 22 ส.ค. 2024
- We picked up a Trent Horne’s question about the origin of sin in Calvinist thought.
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People seem to hate reformed theology based only upon their understanding of what it is. Maybe their parents based it. Maybe their pastors. But if one has a solid understanding of the premise, it cannot be denied by anyone. They may turn and hate God for being "unfair", but as Dr White has said before, "you dont want a fair God".
@Josh Higdon, What is the premise of Calvinism that others don't have the solid understanding? What I can see is Calvinism contradict many bible verses...
Never met anyone that hates reformed theology that actually understands it.
Ah yes...the "if everyone could understand it then they would love it." idea because I love it and therefore everyone must love it! But yet many people understand it just fine and dont love it.
@@user-zl8fd8ko7d its easy. The misunderstanding is from improper exegesis and poor teaching (i.e. traditions). Traditions are a bane to theology. Ephesians cannot be read without understanding reformed theology, unless blinded by tradition from poor teaching. Romans too. Heck, Scripture in its entirety for that matter. It cannot be read without understanding that God is 100% sovereign in His creation unless the blinders of tradition is being worn.
For instance, you dont understand it.... prove me wrong.
@@joshhigdon4951 so which came first: "scripture" or reformed theology? If scripture did then reformed theology wasnt necessary. If reformed theology came first then why do we need scripture? Reformed theology is not a tradition of men? Why is it named after a man who invented it? CALVINism.
You dont know what the word sovereign means. Also, if you need to know that "God is 100% sovereign" (whatever that means) before you read something, then who told you about this sovereignty beforehand?
Prior to the Fall, man has the ability to Sin.
Prior to the Fall, man has the ability not to Sin.
But after the Fall, man is not able not to Sin.
- Augustine.
A well known slandered and Gnostic. Palagius didn't believe the things Augustine accused him of.
@@travissharon1536
You’re hitting levels of conspiracy theory nonsense that shouldn’t be possible. I don’t know of a single, serious Church historian who thinks Pelagius didn’t believe Pelagianism.
@@justanotherbaptistjew5659 Yea, best not to investigate, I just got it from a book by a respected historian. Probably just a stupid person who disagrees with your super smart doctrine.
The books name is "the myth of pelagianism" just for the record.
@@justanotherbaptistjew5659 Sarcastic response aside, which I apologize for. Pelagius was acquitted atleast once by the pope at the time, maybe two times, then the second or third time, Augustine's accusation stuck. Maybe it was political, maybe not.
I am fairly sure that Augustine was the first to attach doctrine to the term predestination, even Calvinistic scholars agree with that for the most part.
When I read the passages that Calvinists point to for definite attonment. Which is flawed regardless. I read a bunch into it. I want to follow God, not my heart.
My best logic tells me that the people who interpret predestination to be referring to a predetermined destination for those who are in Christ, fits with rest of the Bible. If predestination refers to the elect being chosen before the foundation of the earth, then the Bible becomes a riddle. One must then add words and twist many passages to make the Word (of the God that I have given my life to) make sense.
@@travissharon1536
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved.
- Ephesians 1:3-6
“Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
- Matthew 25:34
I think Scripture is clear that we were chosen before the foundation of the world. How does that make everything a riddle?
Lol James. The way you answer this question makes it sound like you are avoiding the question. People always accuse you of that. I think if you take the entire second half of this video, and flip the order backwards starting with “this book doesn’t deal with that question” and followed by “here’s what we see in Genesis 3” and then follow it up with the rest, it sounds like a lot better more direct answer. But the way you normally do it definitely SOUNDS like you’re avoiding the answer.
Genesis 3 cannot possibly be an answer to the question of why God created evil
@@JohnPallas oh, well I’m glad you know.
I can understand how a man who is not a slave of sin could sin. It would simply take one decision that was not in line with God's nature. We note that the Bible shows that it required input from the enemy. This simply moves the question back one step. Why did the enemy rebel?
My astonishment is found in the incredible nature that those who are born again will have at our glorification. We will be unable to sin. I long for that day, but do not understand it at all.
Possible answer:
Before the Fall: Man had no sin, but we also did not have the Holy Spirit indwelling.
At the Fall: Man obtained a sinful nature.
After Christ is crucified: Man received the gift of the Holy Spirit. Now believers have the flesh and the Holy Spirit.
At the second coming: Man will have the Holy Spirit, but with a new body, which came not from Adam.
Result: God with us always and a new body without a sinful nature equals no sin.
@@dandridgeconard3222 I agree that our inability to sin in the eternal state comes from our union with the Lord. Those born again are already united with God by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. He is our surety or promise that complete redemption will take place. However, we are still fighting this fallen nature in our bodies. At the Lord's return we shall receive the redemption of our bodies.
Trent is dodging the inconsistencies in his own camp.
1. Let us distinguish between primary and secondary causes. Suppose you stack up a row of dominos. The primary cause is the hand pushing the first domino, the secondary cause is each domino hitting the next one.
2. Aquinas clearly teaches that God has predestined PHYSICALLY every act in the world through both primary and secondary causality.
So Trent- Why did God create human dominoes only to knock them over? Are you seriously going to stay he only pushed the first Domino, but every other domino is responsible for its own falling? He didn’t intend for the last one to fall when he pushed the first? Because he didn’t put his hand on it? Baloney.
God created man knowing his future fate and action before the dust of Adam had even settled. And he still chose to create him and place him in those circumstances. God stacked the dominos and set them in motion. He is the first cause of all secondary causes.
So in your mind God is the primary cause of sin? And Adam is the secondary cause? Or other way around?
@@user-zl8fd8ko7d God has to be the primary cause. He created Adam knowing with 100% certainty what he would do. He created the serpent....and placed it in the garden?
@@user-zl8fd8ko7d sin isn’t something that’s created. It’s just the lack of obeying God. God never created His creatures perfect. He said it was good. There’s something God has that we lack, otherwise we’d be God. He know what would happen, but obviously it was necessary to do it this way to permanently eliminate Satan and death and sin.
Hebrews 1:3, Jesus upholds the universe, every single atom is under His control
Therefore nothing can act without Jesus empowering the very life and energy required to ever do anything
The primary and secondary causes destinction is one of the biggest calvinist copes. Your god is the devil.
It took him 7 mins to basically say he doesn't know 😂
'The nature of the rulers', and 'on the origins of the world'
Answered that for me.
Obviously this guy has no idea what the answer is
I've heard Calvinists like James White, John Piper, and Jeff Durbin say, "God causes EVERYTHING that happens." That is NOT the Holy, Righteous God of the Bible who is Love. Calvinists can't grasp that God, in His sovereignty, DECIDES to give man (and angels) enough free will to choose right from wrong. The angels who rebelled against God and sided with Satan, and all mankind who reject Christ, do so through their own rebellious free will. GOD does NOT make people sin and then refuse to let them come to Christ and then send them to Hell. This is Satanic doctrine attacking the very nature of God.
We don't teach God makes people sin. Go ahead and produce one published article by a Calvinist that argues that. God from all eternity ordained whatsoever comes to pass. Man sins, makes choices and God renders them certain to occur, yet neither is the will of man violated i.e. God doesn't make man do what he doesn't want to do.
Would love to see another debate between James and Trent
Trent loses.
@@saintaugustine4104 Trent lost the first time, too. I like Trent a lot. By all appearances he is a good, honest, gracious man, well versed in a great many things, and puts out some very edifying content. That said, I think his "cool as cucumber" demeanor, as well as his level of articulation (both admirable and important qualities) give the impression to some that he prevailed on the substance vs. White.
I can't understand how you can sleep at night teaching this... James your a smart man but maybe you should refrain from theology?!
The clear intent of Scripture conveys that God takes no part in sin (1John 1:5, Psalm 5:4, Jeremiah 19 etc.)
The Calvinist argues that God decrees every thing that happens. Every dust particle every and time someone ties their shoes “God determined it.”Therefore, Calvinism creates a distinct problem in its paradigm that is not in issue another paradigms.
Calvinist read presuppositions into Scripture. None of the scriptures that are quoted say that God determined sin. God determined to give His son over, but He did not determine the sin of the cross.
Matthew 12:25 “And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand“
God’s kingdom is divided Calvinism. There is a reason why God gives us clear verbatim truth that teaches that God has nothing to do with sin.
After James berated Trent for not accepting the proper categories to accept the answer; what is James answer to Trent?
6:55- "this book does not intend to answer that question"
James White doing his Matrix impression of Neo dodging bullets.
Are you saying the Bible does go into more detail about why Adam fell even when he was made very good? That is, detail beyond the typical understanding that God created man's will to have natural liberty that was neither forced nor by any absolute necessity of nature determined to good or evil and so pre-fall, Adam had the freedom and power to will and to do what is good and pleasing to God, but yet could also choose to disobey and thus fall?
@@oracleoftroy Your description is sufficent to contradict James White's words. Adam and Eve were created free and chose to sin against God - Good didn't want for them to sin.
@@vaderetro264 What words do I contradict? I think you might have inserted words to force the contradiction.
@@vaderetro264 I'll add, I am speaking of free will from the Reformed confessional perspective. I highly recommend reading Westminster Confession chapter 9 along with chapters 3 and 5 to get an idea of Calvinist compatiblism. White is a Reformed Baptist, so there are differences, but the corresponding sections in the London Baptist Confessions say pretty much the same thing.
You are assuming incompatiblism when you say I am contradicting White.
@@vaderetro264 If God exists you can’t ultimately be free. God knew Adam and Eve would fall, they weren’t ultimately free. The result was already known. To Adam and Eve they felt free but they werent. Unless you’re an open theist, you can’t be consistent. The Bible never tells us Adam and Eve were free. God didn’t make them sin, but there’s something man lacks that God does not. The fall was inevitable, and it was ordained, and it was necessary for God’s plan to ultimately remove Satan and death and sin and evil.
You’re not trying to say things happen outside of God’s control right? He’s also not Dr. Strange looking down different corridors of time. He has already written the end from the beginning.
Jesus. 335
Mary. 1
Mary was so important to the apostles when they were writing their letters to the New Testament churches that she was only mentioned once after Jesus had ascended to heaven. (Acts 1:14)
Jesus on the other hand was named 335 times. Mary was clearly unimportant to the early apostles. She has no role in salvation. She was an honorable young woman from Nazareth. She obeyed God.
All doctrine unique to the Catholic church is unnecessary if Christ's sacrifice is complete.
If Christ's sacrifice was perfect and he took away all sin past, present, and future than...
Penance has no purpose.
Purgatory has no point.
Absolution is unnecessary.
Need I go on?
Yes, Christ's sacrifice on the cross is complete and Final. The Bible confirms this repeatedly.
Flee this Anti-church.
Trust In Christ Alone.
Trust in him alone like you would trust a parachute. You can add nothing to a parachute by flapping your arms. Just as you can add nothing to the perfect and finished sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the cross for all of your sins. Do not cheapen the saviors work by adding mans tradition on to it.
Find a real church that does not withhold drinking from the cup from its lowly non-priest membership.❤
*Honest questions are welcome.*
I was always wondering what was the source of Adam sin and could never find an answer
Without free will and the freedom of choice the that makes god the author of evil not man. If adam ate the apple because god made him then god himself is evil. And that contradicts gods character.
..obviously if God knows everything and he continued with his creation then he created sin.......utterly ridiculous to say that God did not create evil and/or sin.........
So, what's the answer? Who is the author of sin?
God
@@aletheia8054 if God is the author of sin, who needs the devil ? haha
@@anthonytan7134 God is the author of sin and he uses the devil. The devil is us/humans
@@aletheia8054 so we are not human then hahaha too
@@anthonytan7134 You don’t think you’re human?
Love you and your ministry, sir, but this explanation fell short and I’m okay with claiming mystery as you ultimately did, but I’m not okay with saying comparabilism is the only orthodox view on providence. What about determinism? Seems to be the most biblical, but still leaves mystery.
Compatibilism *IS* determinism. It's a distinction without a difference and both are unbiblical. They only bring more confusion to the bible, not elucidate.
No one knows where evil came from. The Bible doesn’t tell us. And no theologian has ever found the answer. So not sure what your problem is.
@@leonardu6094 no, they bring clarity. All things are determined as CLEARLY laid out in scripture. It doesn’t matter if you’re a Calvinist or papist or molinist. Unless you’re an open theist, you know that the end is written from the beginning. The outcome is known because God decreed it to be so or chose it to be so. He chose people unto salvation and left over others for damnation, or chose those whom He foresaw would choose Him, which is just the same exact position as the Calvinist, just from a different angle. If he created you knowing you’re going to believe, you don’t have free will, since he created you that way. Why would he create someone knowing they would reject him? There also isn’t any free will there. You can say what you want, you still have the same issues.
This was super unhelpful. I have read all the Calvist verses about man being only capable of evil, you have to assume man can only do evil without being saved to see that in the text.
People who think the choices of man believe in the mysteries of God. Determinations answer some of that mystery to their satisfaction and make mystery of things that dint seem to have any place being mystery.
Enter provisnism and molinism....
As A.W Tozer puts its, os Gods soveriegn will that we would have free will and even through our free will and we intended for evil, God can make good out of it. That's how powerful our God is.
"The one who meditates on the Person of God, the eternity of God, the omnipotence of God, the sovereignty of God as Creator of, the Ruler over, all things, and the elective purpose of God, will be fortified against that form of rationalism--subtle in character and natural to the human heart--which imagines that, in his creation, God has unwittingly so tied His hands that He cannot with that absoluteness which belongs to infinity realize His eternal purpose."
-Lewis Sperry Chafer
@RMS Ministries, Why do you believe this stupid reasoning of Lewis Sperry Chafer? God has revealed enough to us that we can understand that He is Omnipotent and Sovereign, But the Calvinist understood the Sovereignty of God wrongly...
Why do you the stupidity of your opinions? Calvinists are the only ones that understand the sovereignty. Anti calvinist reject the sovereignty of God and wrongly believe in the sovereignty of man.
@@TheJpep2424, Eat your words my friend...
@@reynaldodavid2913Jo yeah because you have God’s sovereignty correct amirite? Random TH-cam theologians are smarter than Jonathan Edwards. 😂
@@KnightFel , I don't know Jonathan Edwards..
James White seems to use the word autonomous incorrectly.."Adam chose to disobey God, but that doesnt mean that that choice was autonomous" 5:25....autonomy or autonomous means self-governance. The self governing the self. Without that, Adam cannot be responsible. If he did not govern himself to sin, he is not responsible, and the power that governed him to sin would be. We cannot say this power is God or His decree without directly making God the Author of Adams sin.
The enlightened man struggles with that the ancients understood in God’s perspicacious revelation.
Your eyes have seen my unformed substance;
And in Your book were all written
The days that were ordained for me,
When as yet there was not one of them.
- Psalm 139:16
Against You, You only, I have sinned
And done what is evil in Your sight,
So that You are justified when You speak
And blameless when You judge.
Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity,
And in sin my mother conceived me.
- Psalm 51:4-5.
This is the classic question for Calvinism because the entire doctrine hangs in the balance on this question.
Calvinism superbly elevates God for His power to save us from our sin, but it also diminishes the choice of men to sin and to be punished because of it.
Ah, but scripture speaks otherwise, Psalm 139:16 and 51:4-5.
Spurgeon and MacArthur both teach the clearly articulated biblical truths that when Adam sinned, he destroyed the ability of the human race to understand his need to come to God for the forgiveness of his sin and yet he is responsible for his sin and God is legally and justified in condemning him.
Why can’t a Calvinist believe Adam and Eve had a free will and they chose to sin? Resulting in a fallen state and slaves to sin.
@@ShepherdMinistryI'm reformed and do believe they were created with that free will choice. After the fall, however, their nature's became totally depraved, and therefore enslaved to sin and therefore enemies of God. The only way after the fall that they would want to choose God and righteousness, is by God regenerating their heart first.
@@ShepherdMinistryman only has the ability to choose according to his nature, and after the fall, that nature became totally depraved.
I love this subject, I’m gonna just make some short points, gloves off. Any idea submits yo the authority of Truth to exist/have meaning. Every physical experience is the manifestation of these invisible principals that are often even unknown by man, none the less once a physical phenomena is observed it will be articulated by True ideas or even if they are false it will be True that they are false. So with the concept of free will, the pro free will guy must be operating from a premise that free will exists, therefore according to John chapter 1, God made it. Therefore free will is a medium created by God to allow humans to act upon what they believe is True. And while humans may err in what they believe is True it is still the fact that free wil is not free from Truth/Jesus Christ/God. Hence the need to distinguish autonomy from free wil as you have. Autonomy is truly morale insanity as it presupposes that it has essentially the ability to create from nothing as God. The problem with that is as soon as one takes that stance they have stated something they believe to be TRUE! there by showing the ideas submission to Truth. Therefore autonomy dose not exist, which is why it is wrong and destructive. Man makes free decisions as to what they believe is True, if that we’re false man would be a puppet if it is True then mans free will is a slave of Truth. At any rate if God wasn’t involved in it directly it would have no meaning or substance and if I’m wrong it would be True that I’m wrong, if I’m right it would be the same macro category of Jesus Christ that makes it so. So either way Truth reigns, and if it doesn’t then somebody will just have to convince me that their stance is oh wait True lol. God bless
So when does he answer the question??
he did ?
He never actually does. I've come to expect that from James White.
@@leonardu6094 then you can’t listen lol. He said ultimately no one knows. Where did the first sin come from? Before Adam and Eve? The sin of the devil? No one knows. No one ever has known, and God doesn’t tell us. The point is that Trent Horn is talking crap when He and his papist homies face the same exact issues. They are hypocrites. Listening to a video is hard!
@@KnightFel Lol James White only has a problem with the question precisely because of his calvinist assumptions. He affirms exhaustive divine determinism, meanignGod causally controls every single thing about the world including our every thought, desire and actions BUT yet doesn't want to say God causally determined the sin that man commits lmao. Incoherent gibberrish.
@@leonardu6094 not incoherent at all. It’s just true. God determined the most evil thing in the history of the universe to occur to His son according to the counsel of His will, and without sin and it all being the fault of man. Read Isaiah 10. We get it, you hate God’s sovereignty.
The Author of Sin is Satan.
“Adam chose to disobey God, but that choice was not autonomous.”
This is silly
Yeah. I think James is the one making category errors here. A lot of Reformed theology has been making sense to me lately but I just run up into a brick wall when it comes the question of Adam's sin. I'm not convinced by the explanation here.
@@tiptupjr.9073 used to be LDS, Catholic now. I know James White because he takes pot shots at Mormons a lot
I see God's sovereignty and choice of Adam, but wouldn't we call the choice free will?
That's what the Reformed confessions call it. James White is specifically calling out autonomous or libertarian versions of free will, not the entire concept of free will.
There's also a distinction between the type of free will Adam had in pre fall of man conditions to what they are today with man either being a slave to sin or a slave to Christ and when you're a slave to sin and hater of God you need to be given a new heart to love God...
You can't mention times in the bible that God decreed certain situations and then come to the conclusion that he decrees every situation. Compatibilism is fake news. God did not create Adam, command him not to sin, all the while already decreeing he would sin and then punish him for it. Isn't God just? Didn't he say he wouldn't even tempt man with evil? Isn't pride and lust not from the Father??
Romans 9 was written just for you.
@@douglasmcnay644 lol Roman's 9 was also written to be properly understood in context and not to bring all the calvinistic baggage into it.
@@joshcarz what’s the proper context of that verse
Everything exists only because God created it, and everything continues to exist only so long as He wills it to exist. He chooses the time and place of the birth and death of every living, He chose where the various nations and cultures of man would inhabit and when they would appear in history and disappear from it. All of this is clear in Scripture, and even if it wasn't specifically you could not deny any of it without denying the Scriptural testimony that God is all powerful, all knowing, and the exclusive creator of all things. Where in any of this do you see room for any situation which He is not totally in control of? He is willing and able to carry out His will perfectly in every instance, facet, and moment of His creation. There are not "situations", all of creation is one "situation" which He spoke into existence out of nothing, everything which is not God is reliant on God's decree for it's initial and continued existence.
Let's look at Adam's sin and the surrounding situation. I can very plainly say that God knew exactly what He was doing and decreed everything to happen as it pleased Him in order to glorify Himself. You must say that God knew that the situation He created and placed Adam in would lead to Adam autonomously choosing to sin, but that He was either unwilling or unable to create a situation which had any other outcome. He didn't want the Serpent to tempt Eve, but He also didn't want to *stop* the Serpent from doing so because... well why didn't He? Why did Go even create the Serpent, or why did He not cast the Serpent into the fire the moment he rebelled against God in his heart, or the moment he went to enter Eden, or at basically any other point in history? Heck, why did God even put the Tree of Knowledge in the Garden? If He had some other purpose for it being there which would have come to fruition later had Adam not sinned, clearly that purpose was never realized and God knew it would not be realized. The only function the Tree of Knowledge ever served in Adam's life was as an object of temptation, yet it was God's will that it be placed there.
This is why atheists continue to bring up the problem of evil, the majority of Christian apologists are human autonomy ("free will") believers and that sort of answer to the problem is extremely weak and hollow. At best it answers why human beings are able to sin, it does not even get to why humans sin and doesn't even scratch the real point of the question: why has God created a world where sin and evil are not only possible but ubiquitous? It's disturbing to me how many of even "top" apologists ultimately arrive at the answer of basically "this is the best God could do", as if the universe is an equation God didn't really create (Molinism basically amounts to this) which He is trying His best to maximize for righteousness or whatever else. Not only is this borderline blasphemous against God's revealed omnipotence and total holiness, but blatantly contrary to God's revealed plans for creation. Scripture shows us glimpses of the New Heaven and New Earth, and beyond the details we clearly see that God has brought about a transformation of creation into a state where there is no sin and evil. Even atheists can see that, because God is omnipotent, He can create any sort of world He wants to. Since most atheists share your belief in human autonomy, they will actually accept that it is a valid instrumental explanation of sin but still object that God could have created a universe without sin and evil if there was simply no human autonomy. The response at this point is honestly embarrassing, that human autonomy is worth all of the suffering and evil and sin in the world. That sounds more like an excerpt from an unpublished Ayn Rand novel than something said by a disciple of Jesus Christ.
The human autonomy believer's picture of God is like someone who hands a suicidal person a loaded gun and then asks him nicely to not commit suicide because "if he didn't have a gun he couldn't choose to put the gun down, and it would be good if he chose to do that :) I sure hope he does because I reeeeallly don't want him to shoot himself :) ".
I've heard it said that the God of calvinism must not love those He predestines to pay the penalty for their sins. Yet you would do everything in your power to stop something horrible from happening to someone you love, and it probably wouldn't change anything in your mind if the horrible thing was self-inflicted. But in the mind of the human autonomist, God will allow the ignorant, foolish, short lived creatures He has created to autonomously choose an eternal fate unspeakably worse than death which they cannot comprehend. In fact He will convict them Himself, and the eternal punishment is the outpouring of His wrath upon them. But hey it's not all bad, some of these creatures ended up making the good choice so He doesn't have to cast ALL of the human beings He loves into the fire. And it's not like it matters all that much which ones specifically make the right choice. Like take you for example, sure it would be nice if you made the right choice, but it would be nice if everyone else did too. God's going to do as much in your life as He will in everyone else's to call you to making the right choice; but as we can see from all of the people who still reject God after getting the same provision as you did, that's no guarantee. It would actually be unloving for God to bless you more than others (says that nowhere in Scripture and says the opposite many times but um those are just exceptions!!!!! please do *not* view Scripture as God consistently proclaiming His will for the world and demonstrating His nature its just a bunch of weird stories!!!!!), so if He actually decreed from before He created the world that He was going to save you specifically then He would be acting really unfair and unloving to everyone else :(
You cannot say He won't prevent sin because of human autonomy, because (even if your beliefs on human autonomy were true) He has revealed that He WILL put a stop to it. Whatever reason He had for allowing it, whatever reason He had for permitting the Serpent to live and even reign on the Earth as its "god", will on that great and terrible Day of the Lord cease to apply. "The Seed of the woman shall crush your head" (paraphrase of Gen3:15) was not a prediction, it was a promise. God's promises are a total guarantee because they are a declaration of His will through which He works all things.
🥱 As if you have a better answer. His judgements are unsearchable. Things never occur outside the Will of God. Things never occur outside the knowledge and control of God. God knew man would fall before he even created them, so he decreed it in a sense if he didn’t stop it. There is no plan B. So yeah, you can use those verses and apply them anywhere because that’s what it literally means to be God. Our God is in the heavens, He does whatever He pleases. Stop trying to act like you’d do better and know better. It’s so exhausting to read TH-cam theologian comments trying to act like they know more than Augustine or Jonathan Edwards.
We get it. You hate God’s sovereignty.
So you believe God is the Author of sin just like Islam very interesting.
Just like you believe in Free Will like Islam does... interesting;)
According to the Muslims Yes, free will is given to both humans and jinns. The souls are inspired to be able to do good or evil.
فَأَلۡهَمَهَا فُجُورَهَا وَتَقۡوَىٰهَا ﴿ ٨ ﴾
and inspired it [to know] its own rebellion and piety! (91:8)
The Qur’an speaks of a Muslim’s duty to know and abide by the teachings of Allah when making choices with their free will:
It is not fitting for a believing man or a believing woman to have an option in their affairs when a matter has been decided by Allah and His Prophet; and whoever disobeys Allah and His Prophet has indeed strayed into a clearly wrong path.
Surah 33:36 very interesting you have so much belief in common with a Muslim.
Your free Will doctrine is the majority belief system world wide, Roman Catholics, Muslims, Jehovah witnesses, Mormons all embrace it, you guys are the majority. Calvinism, I say less than 3 percent of population embrace it. Wide is the gate I say.
@@thereisnopandemic hahaha this verse talking about Allah who has partner, mr muhammad, not about free will ! all must obey Allah and the partner
Read the following hadith about predestination carefully...
Abd Allah b. Mas’ud said :
The Messenger of Allah (May peace be upon him) who spoke the truth and whose word was belief told us the following : The constituents of one of you are collected for forty days in his mother’s womb, then they become a piece of congealed blood for a similar period, then they become a lump of flesh for a similar period. Then Allah sends to him an angel with four words who records his provision the period of his life, his deeds, and whether he will be miserable or blessed ; thereafter he breathes the spirit into him. One of you will do the deeds of those who go to Paradise so that there will be only a cubit between him and it or will be within a cubit, then what is decreed will overcome him so that he will do the deeds of those who go to Hell and will enter it; and one of you will do the deeds of those who go to hell, so that there will be only a cubit between him and it or will be within a cubit, then what is decreed will overcome him, so that he will do the deeds of those who go to Paradise and will enter it.
حَدَّثَنَا حَفْصُ بْنُ عُمَرَ النَّمَرِيُّ، حَدَّثَنَا شُعْبَةُ، ح وَحَدَّثَنَا مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ كَثِيرٍ، أَخْبَرَنَا سُفْيَانُ، - الْمَعْنَى وَاحِدٌ وَالإِخْبَارُ فِي حَدِيثِ سُفْيَانَ - عَنِ الأَعْمَشِ قَالَ حَدَّثَنَا زَيْدُ بْنُ وَهْبٍ حَدَّثَنَا عَبْدُ اللَّهِ بْنُ مَسْعُودٍ قَالَ حَدَّثَنَا رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم وَهُوَ الصَّادِقُ الْمَصْدُوقُ " إِنَّ خَلْقَ أَحَدِكُمْ يُجْمَعُ فِي بَطْنِ أُمِّهِ أَرْبَعِينَ يَوْمًا ثُمَّ يَكُونُ عَلَقَةً مِثْلَ ذَلِكَ ثُمَّ يَكُونُ مُضْغَةً مِثْلَ ذَلِكَ ثُمَّ يُبْعَثُ إِلَيْهِ مَلَكٌ فَيُؤْمَرُ بِأَرْبَعِ كَلِمَاتٍ فَيُكْتَبُ رِزْقُهُ وَأَجَلُهُ وَعَمَلُهُ ثُمَّ يُكْتَبُ شَقِيٌّ أَوْ سَعِيدٌ ثُمَّ يُنْفَخُ فِيهِ الرُّوحُ فَإِنَّ أَحَدَكُمْ لَيَعْمَلُ بِعَمَلِ أَهْلِ الْجَنَّةِ حَتَّى مَا يَكُونَ بَيْنَهُ وَبَيْنَهَا إِلاَّ ذِرَاعٌ أَوْ قِيدُ ذِرَاعٍ فَيَسْبِقُ عَلَيْهِ الْكِتَابُ فَيَعْمَلُ بِعَمَلِ أَهْلِ النَّارِ فَيَدْخُلُهَا وَإِنَّ أَحَدَكُمْ لَيَعْمَلُ بِعَمَلِ أَهْلِ النَّارِ حَتَّى مَا يَكُونَ بَيْنَهُ وَبَيْنَهَا إِلاَّ ذِرَاعٌ أَوْ قِيدُ ذِرَاعٍ فَيَسْبِقُ عَلَيْهِ الْكِتَابُ فَيَعْمَلُ بِعَمَلِ أَهْلِ الْجَنَّةِ فَيَدْخُلُهَا " .
Grade: Sahih (Al-Albani) صحيح (الألباني) حكم :
Reference : Sunan Abi Dawud 4708
In-book reference : Book 42, Hadith 113
English translation : Book 41, Hadith 4691
www.sunnah.com
Muslim and Calvinist have NO FREE WILL !
Good luck
I guess the question is was Adam among the elect?
Yes. How do we know? God sacrificed the animal and clothed Adam and Eve with the hide. That was a type and shadow of the coming Messiah who would die to cover the sins of many.
@@Brenda-qo4ko Well if God shedding blood for Adam made him "Elect" (as Calvinistic followers define the word), then that would mean that everyone is "Elect" as Jesus shed His blood for all.
@@losnfjslefn8857 The animal blood sacrifices that were made by the high priest wasn't for everyone. Those sacrifices were only made for those that were in the old covenant. Those sacrifices weren't made for the Canaanites, Amorites, or any of the other peoples/nations besides Israel. God elected the Israelites to be his covenant people. Those sacrifices were a type and shadow of the once for all time sacrifice that Jesus Christ made for all those who would be part of the new covenant. Also not everyone.
@@Brenda-qo4ko Romans 5:6 says Christ died for the ungodly. Who is considered ungodly?
@@losnfjslefn8857 Everyone is ungodly. But that verse doesn't say he died for every ungodly person. Since all people are ungodly than the elect are ungodly. Matt 1:21 says Jesus will save his people from their sins. In the OT it was the faithful remnant who were God's people. Who are God's people now?
Why do we think Adam had ant concept of right and wrong before the fall? Eve spoke to Satan in probably the same manner she spoke to God. There is nothing in scripture that we see recorded that informs us that she had a warning about who she was talking to. Now don't give me conjecture and human imagination ---show me the scripture. Remember the tree is the tree of the "knowledge" of good and evil. Adam had absolutely no knowledge concerning his legal relationship to God before partaking of the tree because he had no faculty to. Yes he walked and talked with God so? If you think he had an adequate understanding of who God was where do you find it in scripture. He obviously had no understanding of good and evil because that came only after partaking of the tree. It is a prohibition that starts a child on the road to understanding authority and interestingly the first no is never understood as no. No is just a word with no meaning. The meaning of "no" has to be learned by a human. God allowed Adam instant recognition of the fact that He was God and as such who He was who Adam was in relation to to Himself. . Afterward he understood his sinfulness. Just like any unbeliever today and forever in the past. A man does not understand the ramifications of sin until God touches him and opens him to spiritual reality. It is then that Adam and
Eve hid because before then they were innocent BUT NOT RIGHTEOUS. God can not create a righteous [total holy moral perfection ] being. To do so He would have to create Himself. There is none righteous but God. God's righteousness can not be created it can only be "imputed." God created a way to bring the created man into righteous relationship by imputation of His righteousness in Devine legality. The fall is the perfect example of free will action in the sphere of innocence. The first and last such example and the consequential results. Man is incapable of any avenue for obtaining the legally required righteous necessary for a relationship with God . Also note that Adam and Eve had no mental, physical, environmental or phycological baggage to blame . The birth of self came that day. Without sin there is no human way to come to a even a conceptual understanding of moral perfection and the consequential lack there of. Man could never give glory to God for who He is. How would that be possible. Bottom line God has a complete understand of what is necessary for His creation to understand Him and give Him glory for the great things he has done.. To me this is what Romans 9:14-24 so aptly explains and when I get to verse 22-23 it answers THE question of the ages . Why did God do all this the way He did. Jim please e-mail me and show me where I an biblically wrong. brwood@bobandfay.com if you ever actually get to read this Thanks
No!!!! Jews say that during prayer the body of a Jew(guf) witch is special according to Kabbalah unites with the Atzmus of God - the very Essence of God, in witch the person becomes free as God.
And any one, I hope, this is me conclusion that I hope to be right, so anyone who had that born again-Isaiah 6 experience, remembers that he had freedom not to be pulled out to the world again, felt that freedom, it’s just the old customs remaining in the head tilt you decision to fall under guilt or shame again. But the freedom is there, we as Christians do connect in our hearts, I hope with the very Essence of the free God. And become free, above a destiny(Mazal’). Unless Jews are special and only them connect to Atzmus.
Same thing, I believe was in Adam. But on Adam I am not so sure if he was like Chris.( he wasn’t incarnated Yahwe 🤔I guess).
I understand what James is saying, & I appreciate his ministry, but "NO ONE" wants to or can tell me where did sin come from, James White talks about secondary means, & what are these secondary means, where was sin born, God knew what sin is before He created "anything" or He would not be "ALL" knowing, therefore not perfect & we know that's not true if sin was born in Lucifers heart & we're not going to want to or be able to sin once in heaven, then how was Lucifer able to,& if you chalk it up to free will then what assurance have I that I won't sin once in heaven the way Lucifer did,& even in what James is saying, it was in the decree of God that sin be before He Created anything which makes Him the author of sin, & by author, I'm not saying that God sinned He "Can't" sin, but if He wills that sin be then He is the author
@Bill Barrie, The problem with you is that you cannot believe everything that God says... Sin was indeed born in Lucifer's heart, But does not mean that we can sin in heaven because God said it in Revelation that there will be no more sin... It is the error of the Calvinist that sin is the decree of God before He created anything... You cannot find that in the bible and even contradict that God is Good and God is Love...How can a good and loving God decreed sin... God knew before the creation that Lucifer will sin, but He did not decreed it... He has some purpose that He did not reveal to us... Like, why did God allowed Lucifer to be in the garden when He knew that Adam and Eve will fall after believing the Serpent(Lucifer)
Angels are not humans, though.
@@reynaldodavid2913Jo How could God allow something He did not decree? Can you explain that to me
@@ShepherdMinistry, You are stupid, Did God decreed that an innocent lady will be raped, tortured and then killed by a rapist, you are more than stupid if you believe that.. evil things that are happenings are the consequence of the Fall of Adam and Eve, but God did not decreed it....
@@reynaldodavid2913Joand your failure is the rest of Biblical revelation. Without decree, there is no prophesy. We aren’t told why God decreed these things we are just told that he did. Calvinism is biblical theology. Whatever you just vomited out is not
THAT ONLY PROVES TWO THINGS... IT'S EITHER WHITE HAS NO CAPABILITY TO REASON BY HIMSELF BECAUSE HE USES THE OPINIONS OF SO MANY PEOPLE AND YET CANNOT GIVE THE ANSWER AND JUSTIFY THAT IT IS A FALSE DICHOTOMY... OR THE CALVINIST CANNOT EXPLAIN WHAT THEY BELIEVE... IF YOU ARE AN HONEST PERSON THE ANSWER IS SO SIMPLE... ADAM CHOOSE TO SIN BECAUSE ADAM WAS CREATED BY GOD WITH 'FREE WILL'...
I think you’re right because you type in caps.
@@PeteJab,😂
@@reynaldodavid2913Jo sarcasm ✈️ over your head
@@thereisnopandemic, Are you a moron sir?
6:30 That's also the conclusion molinists arrive to (though they arrive there from different paths)... I really respect James White but here he seems confused.
He’s not confused. You’re just a bit lost.
God is not the author of sin. Some of the confusion is from conflating pre-fall and after fall humanity. Adam and Eve were created upright with the ability to truly choose good or evil, we lost that ability after the fall and are a slave to sin in our fallen nature outside of being regenerated by God. God has a divine decree, He is completely sovereign. He didn’t force Adam to sin, Adam freely chose it. But that doesn’t mean God didn’t ordain it. The problem is this humanistic view of free will. It’s a fiction. There is no such thing as libertarian free will, not since the fall. Primary and secondary causes are a real thing. It’s not easy to make sense of the state of Adam and the original fall, or how humanity freely chooses the things God has ordained to come to pass, but we know that it happened, God ordains all things and that He isn’t the author of evil, but He sovereignly uses it to accomplish his purposes.
Why do people listen to this man?
predestined ?
I'll never understand. Notice he didn't actually answer the question, just spouted more incoherent deterministic nonsense.
Self created and self governance are not the same thing. Autonomy is self governance. It does not preclude external commands, it does not mean self creation, it does not mean independence in the sense of self made. In the case of Adam that means that Adam's self was always governed by Adam. Thats what autonomy means...the self governing the self, not another. And that original autonomy of Adam we are being restored to as regenerate persons. We are being put back into a state of self governance, rather than slavery to sin, the flesh, and under the control of Satan blinding our mind ( control) and his spirit working in us. Christ sets us free in autonomy before God. We are empowered to govern ourselves..thats freedom. Autonomy as a result of the Spirit of God is all over the Bible. Satan blinds an brings bondage...God opens eyes and brings freedom. The clearest statement of autonomy in all of scripture is by David in Psalms 119:109..."My soul is continually in my hand, yet do I not forget thy law". This verse also shows it is a false dichotomy to say we either have autonomy or theonomy when clearly both are taught compatibly in this verse.
Bhahahaha...7 and a half minutes of stammering only to end with "I don't have a clue of how to answer that question".
This is a trivial discussion. Just read the Bible in it original context. Question any theologian and compare it with the entire Word of God. Yeshua is my God not man's theology. If my experince doesn't line up with the Word, my experince is the lie. Not God's Word.
All doctrine unique to the Catholic church is unnecessary if Christ's sacrifice is complete.
If Christ's sacrifice was perfect and he took away all sin past, present, and future than...
Penance has no purpose.
Purgatory has no point.
Absolution is unnecessary.
Need I go on?
Yes, Christ's sacrifice on the cross is complete and Final. The Bible confirms this repeatedly.
Flee this Anti-church.
Trust In Christ Alone.
Trust in him alone like you would trust a parachute. You can add nothing to a parachute by flapping your arms. Just as you can add nothing to the perfect and finished sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the cross for all of your sins. Do not cheapen the saviors work by adding mans tradition on to it.
Find a real church that does not withhold drinking from the cup from its lowly non-priest membership.❤
*Honest questions are welcome.*
Jesus. 335
Mary. 1
Mary was so important to the apostles when they were writing their letters to the New Testament churches that she was only mentioned once after Jesus had ascended to heaven. (Acts 1:14)
Jesus on the other hand was named 335 times. Mary was clearly unimportant to the early apostles. She has no role in salvation. She was an honorable young woman from Nazareth. She obeyed God.