I definitely disagree with the Limitations are more interesting than options take from both of you. Because limitations and compensating for it just creates more polarizing matchups and if the limitations are against universal mechanics, it just creates an unnecessary hole in the character's kit. SF6 Marisa has this problem and AKI lost this problem in the current state of the game and the level of fun and viability for the characters are highly polarizing. AKI got her jabs not confirming fixed, her anti fireballs and her anti airs fixed. These are very universal issues, but by getting these fixed she became far more rounded AND she was able to reliably leverage her unique mechanics and gimmicks. Marisa conversely lost her armor crush on her stance and lost oki pressure while getting the "compensation" of greater damaging routes. What actually happened was that her usage plummeted because the compensation of damage does nothing because she will never get the opportunity to use her compensation. Now not only is she a definite bottom tier character, but she's not even fun to use because the limitations of her kit means that the options that she does have aren't even worth using. No one uses stance-> high/low because it sucks. No one uses any of her specials besides superman punch or gladius outside of combos because they all suck. Xrd Potemkin sucked because they just kept on upping damage instead of giving him anything too. Putting holes in my boat isn't making my boat cooler, it's sinking my boat. Edit: you can put this as my scrubquote. "Limitations suck, give me definitive answers"
@@HellecticMojo As the person who wrote that tweet, I'll say that "limitations are interesting" can certainly create a trash character, but "options are interesting" can also create a trash character - just one who does a bunch of (often random) shit badly. My point is more that if a character has a thing they are canonically not good at, it *should* push the devs to think abt what tools/capabilities should exist in the kit to make them "work". Marisa's original limitation of not great/highly telegraphed moves is interesting, b/c it gave Capcom the chance to say "how can we make these BIG options actually good/solid?" The armor was a unique solution that imposed a real choice on both players for how to approach fights with Marisa - and that's cool! I think they should've kept that aspect of her kit. My pfp is Hisako from KI, and that's a grappler who can't walk (think Makoto). So how do you make a character who can't walk compete in a game with great zoning tools, teleporting skeletons, a werewulf who can dash through you for free cross-ups+has great buttons, and characters that fly all across the screen? B/c she can't easily reposition, she has to be able to hold court (long buttons and a counter), and b/c she's a grappler, she DOES need some capacity to close distance and force respect up close (great dash that low profiles+counter cancels). The inability to do some things creates interesting opportunities for sharp differences across MU's and chars, and personally I think that's a lot of fun. Not all designs should be sharp, but framing what a char is good and *actually* bad at creates a LOT of space for interesting developer and player choices. Lots of round designs means chars get to "do stuff", but also results in fights feeling same-y across even a large cast. @Lordknightclips7878 Highly amused at your take on KI 😂 Not all games and aesthetics are for everyone so I actually 100% understand :-p
@@shadowonefoxx I think we were talking about different things. I think you are advocating for more diverse designs, which I can definitely agree with. Not everyone needs a DP or a projectile or a fast dash. The limitation design that I'm railing against is "Hisako is a grappler so we'll buff the grab damage, but nerf the anti air" type of design where characters get built with holes in their kit that means that they can't answer certain things just because the deficiencies were built in. I'm not asking for a DP, but for the love of god, can my OD lariat work? I'm not asking for a fullscreen hitscan, but can my standing pokes be used at all? I'm not asking for a full screen beam, but can I have a move that actually deals with the projectiles instead of being forced to block? I don't need a homogenized copy, but I do demand direct and functional answers.
9:03 I agree that execution isn't the main thing keeping people away from fighting games (the things you listed are more impactful), but I can't think of another genre that asks players to practice for hours just to do basic moves somewhat consistently in a match. Even when you do get them down, input errors are frustrating. I know a lot of people love practicing tight execution in training mode, but I'm at the point where I'd honestly like to skip that and focus on strategy.
South America thanks you for remembering we exist, struggling but trucking along. A day where there are 40 people in Strive between tower and park is a party
@@yokumob Yeah, unless you are in celestial, the tower is empty and the park is a bit of a problem, you will run into very strong players without knowing the basics. Hopefully the netcode is OK enough to fight with people in NA
Quick advice for people playing Strive in South America: we're all playing in NA East coast, like seriously, not only is the netcode good enough that I can play from Argentina (OBVIOUSLY never on wifi), but I get matched in the 60ms- of delay quite often, meaning I got matched with a fellow brother. I exclusively play Tower and have been able to find games even at like 3am
@@miskarletFGC ̶t̶h̶a̶t̶'̶s̶ ̶f̶o̶r̶ ̶p̶e̶o̶p̶l̶e̶ ̶o̶n̶ ̶e̶a̶s̶t̶ ̶s̶o̶u̶t̶h̶ ̶A̶m̶e̶r̶i̶c̶a̶,̶ ̶f̶o̶r̶ ̶B̶r̶a̶z̶i̶l̶i̶a̶n̶s̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶b̶e̶s̶t̶ ̶i̶s̶ ̶U̶S̶ ̶W̶e̶s̶t̶ also those people with 60ms are people from your own country, is physically impossible to queue to someone in US with less than 100ms. even light is not fast enough for that. and internet is much slower than light edit: my bad i got my directions wrong lmao
@@itloaf thats crazy lmao. as someone who lives in an area where locals are few and far between, I cannot imagine seriously thinking that era was better
@@beam5655 because the quality of the netcode is inherently tied to the betterment of the FGC. If the only way you can experience fighting games and its community is by physically going somewhere to have good quality matches then the community gets massively stifled. Ever since rollback got normalized, the FGC has grown a lot and the level of competition has risen. There are so many strong players now who got their start in the online scene rather than offline, the growth of the scene after fazing out delay based netcode is undeniable
@@barrybeakdriverIt's grown a lot ONLINE. I was running tournaments in my area and I saw in real time how long it took for people there to realise "Wait, I can just stay at home to play fighting games now." We went from full brackets at SF6 launch to 2 people by the time Ed dropped. I understand this is a "well that's just you" situation but I just drove to another area, 3 hrs away, once thriving FGC area, was at the arcade on a Saturday... no one was there. Well, except the shmup and pinball guys. Their local FGC is just as dead as mine. It's great to be able to play the game online but I wish that wasn't the only option. The community aspect of online play is... well lets be honest, there is no community in online play.
For me a lot of tournaments are just invisible, there's a lot of tournaments all over but if you're not already in a discord you'll never hear about them. Plus it's generally hard to find those groups unless they're built into the ui of the game or listed on the Mizuumi/Dustloop/etc
I'm still surprised that current day fighting games don't have built in weekly/monthly tournament events that are always an option to view or join directly from the in game online lobby menus.
That's the inherent problem with closed-gate communities like Discord, and to a lesser extent twitter/facebook (because you can't access the content easily or at all if you don't have an account). It's not the world wide web where anyone can discover this information, and it is hurting new player onboarding big time.
"delay netcode was better" might be the dumbest take I've read in 2024. I remember when rollback was taking off and there were people defending delay because some japanese pro said "it works on my end" while playing in japan with other japanese players using japanese internet infrastructure, but that was like 2016 and still a dumb take then.
They said the delay based era had a better FGC. I don't think they're advocating for shitty online. Which is probably talking about the people in the scene being less annoying then as now. Which is kinda true, but really social media amplifies the hate a lot more than it really is.
I've played in both eras and when ggpo rollback was introduced around 2007-2008 that shit was revolutionary. The fact it took so long to become a mainstream requirement when I had been playing poverty games with near flawless netcode for YEARS speaks to the ignorance and stubbornness of the devs
As a Jack O player, you are entirely correct about the people wanting DP RC removed, but I also don't tweet and just play the game that exists. I'm glad it's gone though.
3:20 It's worth mentioning that Capcom players did the same thing in the '90s. Marvel was not considered a "serious game" until mid-late MVC1; SF heads used to call Marvel the "dial-a-combo" game.
16:00 is so real. Here in Mexico pre-2020 anything fighting game related was managed by the same 5-10 oldheads that only played KOF98, 2002, and *maybe* USF4. I thank God every day for Dany and everyone else at Mazatlan 🙏
Because you dont actually understand why they changed galtings in the first place. It wasnt to make combos easier, it was to make understanding pressure easier. With gatlings being standarized, its far easier to understand what options your opponent can actually pressure you with outside of special cancels, especially when its applied relatively evenly amongst the cast.
@@giantdinoboy8264 changes for new players are never for little timmy who wants to mash close slash. Nothing you ever do will matter to them. Changes aimed for newer players are largely for people that want to interact with the games deeper mechanics/systems without needing to learn 70000 different things at once, like understanding basic "turns" around low level pressure by learning strives simplified gatling structure.
it creates a clear purpose for pressing. You expect what to get and be receiving depending on the buttons. One of the biggest challenge for fighting games that people don't talk about besides execution is parsing of info. Fighting games are very confusing. There's a recent video on Sin's food and how it's a bad move due to how confusing it is. Piccolo hellzone grenade pressure was predicated partially on covering the screen with garbage for making confusion. Knowing what to press and why you press it is the most basic level understanding that a new player needs to know.
Good ending - that last comment resonates with me so very much, as someone whose love of fighting games came first from BlazBlue and MvC3, and has always found "grounded footsies" style fighting boring by comparison.
@@itloaf All good, I'm with you. I may much prefer air-dashers and team fighters personally, but I'm glad the grounded footsies games are there for those who love them, and can acknowledge there's cool stuff in them too. I've even played quite a bit of Granblue this year - though that having 66L and some air blocking helps.
Fighting games don’t need to be easier to learn they need to be easier to pick up and play. People want games they can buy and mess around with friends.
@@surrendering2within decidedly not. Free to play is usually antithetical to a pick up and play philosophy because they require long term engagement (ie building a core audience that sticks with the game long term). Not to say they can’t be but a “finished” game without updates is often easier to play with an audience who maybe plays the game once a month at parties.
@@surrendering2within Demos with limited characters and limited modes wouldn't be bad. Would at least give people the chance to try out the game and mechanics before dedicating the $60-$70 + DLC to it.
@@espurrseyes42 granblue fantasy versus rising actually does that and I think it works insanely well. Wouldn't have bought it (albeit half off rn) if the demo didn't exist
You're so real for saying that about KI near the end lmao. Gameplay-wise it's so fun, but it's SO hard to look past the aesthetic. Specially the characters glitching from one key pose to the next because the combo system demands it. And the absurdly busy screen between all the particles, shadows, flashing lights and backgrounds. The silly SFX are almost charming, though.
KI is the ultimate filter game. It sounds like one of the best fighting games in the past decade but you have to look past it offending all of your artistic sensibilities
To me it almost kinda looks like someone made a stop-motion animation of the action figures they had lying around (which I guess isn't entirely inaccurate considering the original KI was animated using the Mortal Kombat method).
If a disability doesn't affect your ability to pick up the game does it really need to be catered to? Maybe it does but I can't think of an example off the top of my head. Moreover, if we're making the game more accessible, as in easier, simplified and/or also adding ways for people with disabilities that couldn't otherwise pick up the game and do well to do so, is that really what we want? Does everything have to be super accessible to everyone regardless of capabilities? What's wrong with having a difficult game?
@@prosaic4195 He's talking about things like the beeping when you get closer to an opponent to make it easier to play with eyesight issues. This only makes the game easier to physically play for certain people. This doesn't make the game more or less difficult for normal people.
A big reason why LoL runs two week patches is that when your roster is 100+ characters with less options per character and any given game can devolve into 40+ minutes, players develop a very low patience for seeing the same stuff over and over again in queue. And in TFT, some big reasons why they have to run two week patches is 1) There is only a limited amount of time on any particular set (4 months), and each set is completely different and 2) TFT as a game system kind of breaks if people aren't playing with some diversity due to the bag sizes (imagine if top 8 were all trying to play the same character, but for each person trying to play that character, you can magically coinflip a loss with no input; it's that kind of situation).
nah RIOT just makes the most garbage patch decisions and the most garbage champion designs with repetitive sht thats why they regularly update the game to make people feel like theyre trying to make the game play not always the same when it always does regardless
And the player base has been actively screeching about how having a constant patch cycle is horrendous given that they keep adding new things to be annoyed with. Riot wouldn't need to have consistent patches if they just take a breather and level the balance.
@@naiustheyettia game like league can never be 100% balanced, no competitive game is because there will always be outliers which is what makes the game dynamic. And the really big system mechanics only really happen in pre season and maybe mid season. If riot went 2 months without patching something people would be up in pitchforks as well
@@wendigoszn8594 LoL can never be 100% balanced but it could be a lot better than it is now. They have too many characters nobody plays, and thats partially because they keep pumping out crazy overtuned new characters who do what 3 other characters combined did but better. LoL at a competitive level is miserable with a character pool of like 20-30 out of what 150 characters? Recently at worlds an NA team took a game off of a top Korean team just because they didn't know how Nunu worked because it gets 0 play in Korea. That game is a shambles.
As newer player to fighting games the hard part about learning is, it's so hard to deal with the mental stack and actually do the things I want in game. Also if they want to keep new players, some incentives besides rank would keep my casual friends playing more than once
Fighting Games really gotta step up with single player content, and develop AI so that it isn't switching between literally cheating and letting you hit them. Only good example I can think of is Killer Instinct's Shadow Survival, as the AI copies a certain player's fighting style. Combo patterns, movement patterns, grab attempts, everything basically, it's all copied in a way so every fight you have is different as well, you're practically fighting another player. Yet even in that SAME FUCKING GAME, the normal AI that you fight in other modes does what I said before of switching between cheating and letting you hit them. They'll punish you for throwing out a quick light attack from a fair distance away with a Shadow move (basically EX moves) and then stand there for a few seconds and let you wail on em.
I don't know why fighting game developers don't branch out their single-player games into sidescrolling beat-em up games like Ninja Warriors, Guacamelee and Okinawa Rush type games. It would make so much sense. It would allow players to learn how to play fighting games in a single player focused environment without competing with another human being. Same core gameplay; jumping, dashing, blocking, attacking with all your normals and specials, but in wide open areas with platforming elements. Enemies and environments could be designed to teach you how to jump, crouch, dash, block, combo, etc. in a very seamless manner. Damn that would be so much fun, i've been playing fighting games for 30+ years and i'd definitely play a sidescrolling GG Strive beat'em up game.
lordknight -"we had tiny tournaments melty blood act cadenza only 20 people" in australia that is absolutely massive turnout for any game other than smash
Killer instinct (2013) has some of the best netcode & matchmaking in fighting games. Within 5 seconds or less it finds a match. Especially now that it has cross play between Xbox and steam.
Execution was a part of strategy. Hate to be the 9,000,000th guy to bring up SF4 but 90% of characters don't require "Hard Combo" but you could make a decision to risk the drop for the damage. I'm actually All for auto-combos and easy inputs as long as they aren't as strong as the "not easy" versions of the moves. But just straights up removing player player expression because not every player will be able to perform the action is beyond ridiculous to me. We should be lowering skill floors, and raising the ceilings, not just straight up lowering both. Call me crazy but CASUALS DON'T COMPETE, so a fighting game's design shouldn't revolve around the idea of casuals being able to win EVO.
It's really fun when you have a game that's hard enough where almost no one is able to play optimal 100% of the time so most people just end up doing what works for them
casuals have already won evo, shout out to CPU winning Brawl in 2008 over Ken just because his family was vacationing to Las Vegas and decided to enter a video game tournament for fun
This reminds me of buying sf6 for two of my friends only to hear them use modern controls as a scapegoat for why they don't like the game. It made me realize despite how much I tried to explain the nuance; some people only want to believe what they want.
This is an easy fix. I hardly play "M" players. In the right mood I may actually play the match. But most of the time, I take a "If you can't be bothered to actually play SF, then neither can I." And I'll just sit there, or mock them by smashing buttons and doing random stuff the whole time. It's also like to bait them into a custom just to tell them to go play something else. If you can't play on classic, SF isn't for you. And that's OK.
@@intellectic9155 damn, didn't know modern controls played neutral for you. However, I haven't played SF6 as a whole, so I might not see how modern controls make the entire game easier (outside of combos) It's unbelievable how M instantly installs MU knowledge, all the nuances about pressure and how to play neutral Seriously tho, you like the person who labbed 2 BNBs and believes they know wtf they're doing
On the region stuff - while obviously there are many places that have it way worse than me, there's large regions even in North America where travel still sucks. I live in western Canada and the closest major to me is in California, and so that necessitates me taking extra days off to travel - flights are relatively limited, and so I basically have to make a long weekend out of it. And again, I have it easy compared to folks off-continent. But then I hear people go 'oohhhhh I have a three hour drive to this tournament and it's so far and maybe I shouldn't go' and it's actually the most frustrating shit ever hahahaha. I wish, man! Netplay being so much better makes it much easier to learn - it means I can actually play with strong players in a much larger region, fill in MUs, join netplay brackets. And like, yeah, obviously rollback isn't perfect (hit confirming using the health bar in rollback is annoying) but it's so so so so much better.
Execution comment is valid. Fighting games aren't a game of chess to focus exclusively on strategy, the reason why they're sick is combination of strategy, real time fighting and execution
In defense of the execution guy: if you're all but guaranteed to get your max damage combo every time you touch the opponent because the execution is easier, it makes it less hype. Going for those tourney-safe combos to be safe and stuff is part of strategy, and it gets dampened to a degree if execution is easy. Strategy is wonderful, but I like the strategy and hype that comes when execution is a lil difficult.
except tourney safe combos happen anyways. It's called tourney safe because it is and you are gonna see billions of it. Evo moment 37 is called evo moment 37 because it's a moment. The game was not built for that to be the standard, so saying that execution needs to be harder for hype is just missing the point. In all likelihood in alternate timeline EM37 would never happen precisely because of the hard execution and SF3 would be forgotten as that game that people played for a while.
@@HellecticMojo This is a weird take because moment 37 DID happen. And it was BECAUSE of the execution required. Sure. There is a chance that it couldn't. But you know what? If the execution was way lower, it's not a chance. It DEFINITELY wouldn't happen and reach the legendary status it has today. Because it'd be something everyone can just do.
@@HellecticMojo The Daigo parry is actually demonstrates what I mean very well -- if you could just do an sf6 parry, parrying chun's SA2 wouldn't have been hype. It's precisely because that parry was so novel and difficult that it became legendary. I'm not saying execution needs to be "hard", but I am saying that if execution is decidedly "easy" then certain things like big combos are just a bit less hype.
oh and for tourney safe combos -- thats also the point -- its hype seeing someone take a risk to do a "tourney unsafe" combo. But if every combo is easy to execute, then that side of things is largely gone
@@itloaf not really. Audience doesn't care. HC is execution heavy as hell, but you don't see anyone hype for the gremlin while people get hype for triple potbuster. No one is hype for Arakune despite him being a neutral and execution nightmare. Everyone was cheering for Spark against LK when Litchi is far more execution intensive character compared to Hakumen
The Delay Netcode one drives me nuts because it felt like you legit couldn't play seriously outside of your locals unless there was someone's house that you could go to on a whim for games. Also if your area just doesn't play your game then you're kind of fucked and forced to play online, which doesn't play how the game is really intended (like online warriors in DBFZ doing fucking 6M and dragon rush in 6f delay and feeling themselves). Now I can just hop on and play a game whenever I want and it will be 99% similar to me playing offline in terms of match quality. Also traveling could be expensive and adds up. I was in Alaska for a bit and traveling for anything, ANYTHING, was a big ask. I go back a few times a year to visit my family and it's not only a long trip but it costs me about $700 to do it.
7:27 I hard agree with that, SF6 with its world tour mode was hella fun and kept me, a person new to fighting games, out of the lab and actually vs cpu's. Learning the game bit by bit and having a ton of fun
The issue has never been games being hard. That’s not really accessibility considering people have completed Elden ring with. Disability. The issue is LEARNING the game. And xrd outclassed like all games since then. Sf6 also has had a nice level up and more AI non-input reading modes have been popping up too. I’m just waiting on arcsys to get to it. On-boarding & IN-GAME parity along with shit to do that’s not ONLY doing matches and feeling like you’re progressing even when you lost Also idk what guy was on about delay-based. Bro was tweaking
I've almost only ever heard bbtag is bad because of the controls/simplified elements, and also the reused assets. I've never in my life seen a hater talk about all the busted shit the game has lmao. With that said it's absolutely a hateable game. But maybe try to actually play it first
I think the game is pretty good. There isn't too many characters with plus frames but the few that have plus frames have pretty intuitive pressure and easy combos. It feels like a modern fighting game but with less of a focus on ham strung system mechanics. I think it's best enjoyed as a little effort in lots of laughs with your friends out kind of game but that's just me.
fighting game community is a whole contradiction everyone especially in mk community says their main character is low tier all of them do regardless of who it is.
If they can throw shit at their opponents characters during play, and after that still go and share tech, practice together or do nerd talk over a beer, that is a great community. MK is arguably one of the worst groups within the FGC, overly toxic and barely commited to the offline level, which is why so many look at them with contempt, and why MK is no longer considered in the Top 3 in the FGC.
6:30 I can't stress how the most fun part either from a viewing or playing standpoint is NOT a flashy combo (some exceptions apply where you convert off of something thats uncommon) but is the interactions (EVO Moment 37 instantly comes to mind). Personally, i couldnt care less if you spent 100s of hours in the lab doing a unoptimised unrealistic flashy combo what matters are moments where you clutch a game or read the opponent (there's a reason Tekken has a slow mo when both players are trying to land a hit at critical health)
As someone who for whatever reason always gravitates to characters without meterless reversals in every FG I pick up... Working around limitations does feel rewarding, but at the same time it also gives you a very convenient excuse for when you lose; this can be a bad thing for mental.
"i cant take KI seriously" is the biggest wrong take ever, everything about that game rocks, i want a guy screaming "ULTRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA" at me 24/7
I mean, I'm retired and have nothing but time. $20-$25 an hour and I'll not only scream ultra at you 24/7. I'll rock a giant boombox playing that metal AF theme on loop
The game just hurts my eyes. The prevalence of bloom effects, that edge glow, I've just never liked it. I disliked a lot of scifi games in 7th gen especially because of those effects and it bugged me a lot for KI
@@HellecticMojoThis I can understand. Visually in terms of bloom and rendering it's a mess. I often think about KI and imagine the visuals and go "ew how can people like this game" but then I touch it and get into it a bit and I'm like "oh yeah. It fucking rocks" Contrast to the visuals the sound design is pretty amazing to. I'm having a hard time thinking of an attack that sounds as vicious as Fulgor's hype beam.
Between CH, PC, and adding drive rush to the mix, I think Street Fighter 6 has a fantastic variety of combos that gets brought down so so much by the fact that drive rush cancelling from a long poke will always have the same combo and it's what you will be doing most of the time. There isn't even much of SF6's famous "resource management" going on in these combos because it simply isn't worth spending more than you've already spent most of the time on these routes.
16:37 guy from Brazil (south america) here. One of the main reasons i play strive is because of the amazing rollback, because even tho nobody plays in south america, i can play in east usa pretty well
16:05 (im from Chile) literally got DQ'd from a tourney yesterday for a bad connection (i was playing with LAN but the internet services in my city SUCKS ASS). Also almost every locals in my region are either for Smash/MK1/Tekken 8, i only play Strive and sometimes Uni2 and SF6... And if a local that has Strive exists? It's not on my region and i would have to pay like 10 dollars just to get there (forgot to mention im poor)
Oh yeah I remember the talk around BlazBlue. For how fun the game was when it first came out, you'd have thought the sky was falling. We only forgot about that drama when they figured out the Carl infinite.
Re: League/TFT The two week patches are largely small tweaks to stats for items/characters. Whether it's a slight damage nerf/buff or a base stat nerf/buff, it's typically pretty easy to figure out what is happening - the nerfed stuff got weaker, the buffed stuff got stronger (sometimes this isn't true but it largely is). Basically unless a character gets reworked or added, everyone's moves still work the same so it's mostly just numbers and due to sites that allow you to analyze every character and every item build based on rank for every individual and world wide it is easier to figure what things are what tier. There are only 2 or 3 major patches a year that change how the game works at a fundamental level. Major patches are things like item overhauls, rune overhauls, map overhauls, the way the entire jungle works, etc and those take significantly longer to figure out and adjust to - even with the surplus of information and data sets.
7:30 i think mk11 does what you mention the best out of any fighting game I've played. i have over 80 hours in that game and less than 1 hour of that is actually fighting other players. To me it delivers a complete experience to someone that doesn't have the time to invest into learning how to not get curbstomped by a random guy online that was born holding a hitbox. on the other hand GGST feels like its 2 generations behind games like sf6, tekken 8 and mk1. as a new player i found the fact that you can't switch input devices on the fly, not being able to use the mouse in menus, and I'm not even gonna touch on how horrible getting into an actual match is, in comparison to the previously mentioned games. If i wan't already invested in learning strive and i booted it up for the first time i would've just refunded the game instantly.
why is LK so absolutist about execution. Just cause someone appreciates execution doesn’t mean that they don’t care about strategy. I think it’s cool when someone can react to an option with a well executed dp motion and when it’s just hold a direction and a button, I think it’s less cool, is that so unreasonable?
@@scnoz1430 I was talking about the opinion on One Button DPs. There's a whole video going over how those affected P4A gameplay and why taking issue with them is perfectly reasonable.
I'll give the BBTAG controls thing a bone, but not in the way that they're saying. I would have loved if BBTAG was 4 attack buttons, 2 tag based buttons and worked like DBFZ. The 3 button system kind of made it look like they're were jamming stuff into autocombos and hoped they worked. Some characters it was great. Some characters it was lackluster. And it showed when they remodeled a few Persona characters movelists/autocombos. Aigis had a crammed movelist and Megido was ONLY 25 meter version. So they took away her fast gatling gun and gave her a meterless Megido to make it easier for people to do combos without hard researching Discord. But the fast gatling gun was a big deal for neutral and she doesn't have good assists so I thought the idea was "make her very strong as a point and go ham as long as she has assists to work with" She's already great with solo combos already, probably one of the best. Megido has some active switch team synergy but this could have been solved if she had a A, B, C, D to split between specials. If Kanji could use the tackle and lightning as a D button command like in Persona. They would have liked that. They were also probably going for balance and minimalism (they definitely recycled a lot even with RWBY characters). At least 3 different meta dark ages happened so idk if they were ever successful.
Really liked the take on accessibility. I think the FGC should be catering just as much as casuals as they do to the top players. Fighting Games that have an X-factor for casuals can help them be more sustainable. Tekken has this crazy story and great graphics, SF6 has so much non-versus stuff, and GG has one of the best art/music direction in a game. At least at my locals, these games are the most popular ones that have people show up regularly for brackets and casuals.
That smash opinion is so obnoxious. There are so many people who play smash casually that are always shitting on competitive play for no reason. Why? What tf do you care? You never see mkleo or whoever talk shit about people who play with items on, why does little jimmy have to act like pokeball sniping on temple is the only "real" way to play the game?
It's because online discussion of Smash is _only_ competitive play. Combine this with the fact that competitive play is considered _the_ way to play and it is understandable why someone has such an opinion and why it is somewhat popular. Pro Smash players don't need to talk shit about casual play because they are already considered playing the game the properly. Why talk about a format that doesn't matter?
Because Competitive Smash is a joke. No other game needs to strip out its content to the level of Smash to just get it going and call it the definitive way to play.
@@HellecticMojoNo one is saying playing competitively is the "definative" way to play Smash. And I really fail to see how stuff like Pokeballs getting toggled off makes competitive Smash illegitimate somehow.
God, the people that say "Strive isn't a Guilty Gear game" really bother me more than they should. Like no, your random list of preferences towards the older games doesn't get to determine what games belong in the series. Yes, Strive is a Guilty Gear game, it says it right in the title. Even Guilty Gear 2 Overture is a Guilty Gear game. I can see why some people don't like Strive or just prefer the older titles, but tryjng to gatekeep it from the series feels needlessly patronizing to the people trying to enjoy it.
For TFT, the game balances often imo because a) it balances at leagues cadence and b) every player always has access to all the tools, and units aren’t individually filled with depth, it’s the combinations of them and pathways to making them strong that add complexity. Every unit of the same cost should be roughly on the same power level and it’s obvious when that’s not true. In fighting games, the characters typically are more in depth because the characters are the entirety of the system, whereas other factors play into the other aspects of tft
Before I got out of competitive CCGs I was always a much bigger fan of decks after they'd gone through a ban cycle or two. Deck building was just vastly more interesting once they started taking away op tools. I'm completely on board with the guy saying it's better to design around missing tools.
Being a south african the rollback era has been so much better. Its a pretty big country with a very small fighting game community. Only a few Tekken and SF6 tournements run in cape town and johannesburg but none for other fighting games like strive, mortal combat ro granblue. The south african strive community is primarily an online one where we just log on and practice together, occationally doing a casual tournement in park. Without rollback there would be no strive community straight up
This'll sound weird, but I think the delay netcode guy is talking about the online culture of games back then. It was semi-normal back than to join a public lobby and voice chat with the people there while watching the one fight going on.
BBTAG when it came out was pretty much auto combo the game with assists... after updates and discoveries such as being safe to Resonate on air, Cross Combo, Tag after doing a move... started to be forgiven for the simple inputs... but now is kind of spam specials the game. Many characters are safe doing heavy specials and way more with good tags to protect or confuse the opponents...
I'm gonna say it again . Fighting games aren't too hard . People are just too used to having their hands held and being lead through the same things in single player games . When you're up against someone who's better it doesn't matter if it's marvel or fantasy strike, you're going to get rocked Stop lowering the skill ceiling of these games and instead lower the floor, steamline the things that make it fun, and then teach people how to use those tools If a marvel 3 clone had a one button dash macro that didn't accidentally super it might end up being the greatest fighting game of all time (no bias here) The 2xko community is learning fast how even good league players are going to struggle with fighting games despite the simplified controls cause there's so much more after that first step
How can you say Fighting games aren't hard etc etc and then say games should lower the skill floor on the same breath? You not making sense and just saying random stuff lol.
@@gjergjipocari8227 I said fighting games arent "Too hard" . As in the thing people have been saying about them for decades. Its not that the combos are too hard, its that you havent put in the time to do more than button mash. When you start to learn combos you get a little bit more from them, then you start to understand neutral and the game really starts. But until that point it doesnt matter if you have diamond inputs or one button supers. The streamline thing is just common sense. Like smash took away wave dashing and other high level mechanics (Bugs lol) but imagine how much more hype it would be if they streamlined those into the game. If youre going to make anything easier it should be things like this that still keep heavy layers of complexity rather than making combos and specials dumbed down and truly just lowering the skill floor without any depth next to it
@@azawarauthecat1268"Combos aren't too hard" I am serious when I say I literally got a migraine trying to do one of Kyo's rekkas in KOF15, and some combos even in recent modern fighting games like SF6 sometimes have very small link opportunities to make even basic combos work, I've put probably over a hundred hours of time into practicing combos, spacing of attacks, emphasizing neutral and spacing, etc. Combos are hard, especially with all the random factors that happen when fighting someone in a match.
@@Manglet762 Im really loving the focus on the combo thing. Im not saying hard combos dont exist , theyre just not the problem players think they are. Put two players against eachother where one can land that crazy one frame link combo every single time but the other is a master of neutral and spacing with day 1 baby combos then place a bet on whos gonna win it. The combos themselves might be hard but they dont have to be. Understanding the fundamentals is hard and takes time but thats what makes a great player
Options make the game versatile. Limitations make the game deeper. A game where you have to take real decisions, with both benefits and drawbacks, is a good, interesting game. That's why I hate shotos. Too often their lack of limitations transforms them in the only option.
But theyre always mid tier as well. I personaly hate rushdown because their stuff is being fast and do big damage and big combos, wich is fundamentaly a win condition making they always dominating the top tier list.
@AMnotQ ken and Akuma are also much more rush down oriented than other shotos though. also Akuma is a boss character he will never NOT be good they won't allow it.
Re:TFT balance patches Unlike fighting games, there isn't a huge commitment to attempting to play the best units. Yes you have to learn a bunch circumstantial decisions and optimizations for those. But your general game sense + them being the best units remains in your favor. Another aspect of this is that adjacent builds to the strong units become great overnight 2nd tier options. Since the game involves a lot of branches overlapping, if one branch gets bigger every subsequent branch goes up in value. On top of that, being a complete player requires you to have passing knowledge of the entire game. If the game serves you a spot that you play comp X 80% of the time, you're already expected to know how to lean into that rather than going for comp Y you're more familiar with but has a lower win rate given your current spot in game. One tricking is possible, but not optimal play This creates a lot of group think where people just try to force those comps or those comps take 1-2 spots out of 8 in the leaderboard. And this happens every single game. So you're subject to samey games because the accessibility to those strategies is very friendly. It's rarely that they're super imbalanced (it does happen), but if you have a mix of bad comps + strong comps, people bitch about that. Also the pros/streamers play like 12+ hours a day, so that doesn't help lmaoo This blends into the 2nd aspect of it, they recognize TFT is a content driven game. FGs are the games where a dedicated crowd will ask for balance to remain the same for 6 months with NRS being the big exception. TFT as a conscious design decision values keeping the game fresh, releasing an entire new set every 4 months. So it's sometimes not just balance decisions, but also giving new life to archetypes that don't work, new mechanics and revamped systems for the long term health of the game that spray sporadically between it all. I play TFT daily casually and unless we were on a really bad patch, I probably experience the outliers, but it's still generally muted in my experience. Good luck can have me pick up undeserved wins since it's baked into the design as well. Different strategies, different player base, different expectations.
my hot take is that the smash bros comp timers are way too long. 7/8 minutes is absurd and I find it weird that every TO is okay with each 3/5 round having a maximum time play of 40 minutes if every round goes game 5 and all timeouts. timing out in every other fighting game every single round of a match will never even be close to 7/8 minutes. time outs are so normal in every fighting game but smash, but m2k and others have the idea that a lower timer will cause more timeouts overall like thats the end of the world but they forget to realize that smash is the campiest fgc of all games hands down, i promise hbox is playing for timeout at the 7:59 mark
The reason why timing out in every other fighting game will never get as close to eight minutes is cause there's more stocks in smash bros than rounds in other fighting games and not having a life bar means you can live absurdly long. Generally matches in Smash Bros last far longer than those in other games which is why the match timer is so long. As for why timeouts would be a bad thing for Smash it's cause of how much easier it is to stall for time with better movement and ledge intangibility and the fact that stalling for 99 seconds in a game where it's harder to stall is hype (sometimes) whilst stalling for an entire 5 minutes in a game where it's far easier is boring and uninteresting. And yes people would Stall more if the timers were shortened. It's pretty simple and logical, if there's less time needed to stall then it becomes easier to stall meaning people will.
@@weesticles650 people will stall regardless of time if that is their strategy from the start. your basically created a social contract instead of having genuine rules also when u consider a stock to be a round, it still is much longer than other fighting game rounds
@@rockyino99 correct, however people are far less likely to stall if they have to stall for a longer period of time. They also have implemented anti-stalling rules, you know that right? The ledge grab limit is specifically a rule to punish stalling by refreshing ledge invulnerability. Certain other forms of stalling as well such as Peach using side special off of the side of some stages are also outright banned. Only reason we don't have an air time limit as well is because it could due more harm than good since being in the air isn't a purely defensive thing. Also yes each stock often lasts longer than a round, I never made the point that it didn't. I simply said there were more stocks than rounds, AND then I said how each stock lasts forever due to how people can last to extremely high percents. By trying to nitpick a point I didn't even make I honestly question if you even read what I commented.
If im honest, i agree both with you and the tweet when it coems to modern games trying hard to get new players in with modern control schemes. In the end they are listening to the people they want to play their games: the people intimidated by fighting games. But the problem is those people dont know what the fuck theyre talking about. Theyre intimidated, but its not just the controls, its guys who are deep into the community that intimidate them. So you are right, theyre doing the wrong thing, they should be adding offline and coop modes. But i dont blame them for being wrong because they are just taking what people think is their honest truth.
6:42 that's so Blazblue-brained lol. I'm really not a fan of gated combo routes like Blazblue does. To me Guilty Gear XX's solution with the guard bar scaling light starters is much more refined. You get the same combo, but it hurts way less if it starts with a light attack because it depletes the guard bar more, especially if you were mashing lights. Except if you had your opponent's guard bar cranked, where then it does max damage until the guard bar depletes. Very fluid and elegant system.
I think the take that people who like execution and want it in modern games don’t like tactics or strategy is such a scrubby take. What, I don’t give a shit about any other aspect of the game suddenly because I want sauce? Thats stupid. I dont think games become boring per se because of lack of execution but I do think that an element of expression is lost in how you chose to practice the game, and saying that I told on myself or some shit because that’s one of my favourite aspects of fgs is extremely goofy and tells me that either you like feeling cool for doing “hard” shit in modern games with barely any practice and envy people who give enough of a shit to practice optimizing, or you are just being ignorant to sound smart
12:27 this take is acc pretty good I used to play DBFZ and at the early stages of the game most characters were actually designed around strenghts and weaknesses but over the patches some characters weaknesses were removed and others didnt get the same treatment seemingly without reason or planning, really killed my interest for playing the game
my hottest take is my deep dislike of dp's/reversals. (i play pot so you can guess why). im hopeful for the armored buster since it will force people to expend 50 meter (reversal or red roman cancel) or play rock paper scissors and pot wont immediately lose his turn to a dp since he has to work so hard to get in (baskets is likely the only dp that would take a turn back as its multihit)
@@budgetcommander4849 yeah, i was very happy to see dp rc go the way of the dodo. at worst you spent 50% meter to get out, at best you could go into a full combo and potentially wall break to get said meter that was used back. it was crazy.
100% agree, I think dp's are so underrated. Against someone that knows how to use dp you actually have to play offense completely different. In a game like street fighter I think it's fine because of the risk reward. In guilty gear tho the damage you take for just getting mixed and the damage you take for guessing wrong on a dp is pretty similar and the game is so volatile that going back to neutral even once can lose you the game
Honestly they already took out DP RC and few people have meterless reversals. And DP’s are slower, and the multi hit ones aren’t invincible anymore. One of DP’s main purposes is denying people their turn and resetting to neutral to play rushdown again. Personally I really can’t sympathize with characters who have skewed risk reward for being closer, complaining about DP’s existing. Con your opponent into a safe jump, or keep them out. There are strategies, archetypes even, to avoid having to deal directly with some of your opponents defensive options. Pot players will consistently say this character is to hard to approach his ceiling yet they continue to try and make this character easier. Aside from a few bad patches that everyone has, DP’s are really the concern?
@@tragicblvd the effort of a safe jump vs the effort required to input a dp isn’t comparable and if I dp was solely about denying a turn and being a defensive option then it should have 0 offensive utility. The skewed risk reward is the punishment for letting it get to the point where pot is in your face. If you let him in that’s already something you did wrong. So to get in as a grappler just to have your first crumb of a turn get taken away feels pretty ass not gonna lie. The grappler archetype is big damage off the grab but that doesn’t mean much when said grab is about the same as a combo you see at high levels that can be converted into from most things. I am aware of safejumps and use them (I’m a celestial pot) but the fact you can turn any disadvantageous situation into a neutral situation at any time is absurd. I’ll take this opinion to my grave that dp’s (at least in strive) are incredibly lame
I really do hate how much modern fgs cater to rushdown. I don't mind aggressive games I play gg with an understanding that that's how the game is but do we really need universal run into your opponent mechanics? I'm just not a fan of the game deciding what pace the players play at.
I think it's mostly just because that's what most people have come to expect from Fighting Games. Afterall, in their minds, whats the alternative? Play the zoner game? Rushdown is just what most people enjoy.
One thing I find very interesting with the FGC is the constant talk about why fighting games aren't more popular. You don't really see other niche genres pining away for mainstream support like the FGC does. As to why I personally think fighting games have less appeal than FPS or other squad based shooters, I think some of it has to do with match times. In any given gaming session FGC players have dozens of 1-3 minute matches while FPS players will have a few 10-20+ minute matches per session. FGC mindset is so fast from match to match, opponent to opponent, character match up to character match up. FGC player's minds have to be able to be completely scatter brained but always focused simultaneously. Whereas FPS players can really settle into the zone and have so much time to adjust tactics before a match is over by comparison.
6:17 fucking thank you. I hate it when people are like "The lack of combo execution makes the game bad" when combos in the first place are USUALLY the easiest part of the game. The actual hard parts/ skill heavy parts are learning neutral, learning game mechanics and when to use them and learning match ups. The complexity of input execution is such a false barrier to fighting game skill.
Its not about execution being hard, nothing is hard if you put a bit of time into it... however, the input system/style is actually the majority of the "gameplay" in any fighting game and it affects how you interact with others as well as execute combos. its as important as weapon feel in a shooter, literally make or break for each prospective buyer. If someone doesnt like a particular style its not a hot take to say they wont like the game or deem it to be bad.
I agree with LK look at like card games like magic the gathering that shit is complex and hard as fuck but the way you get people playing every friday is having fun events with lower stakes that are about going out and playing. You can invite more people into the game if there's more to do than just win ranked mode.
Do agree/disagree with any of these takes?
Also we're doing scrubquote confessions on the main channel soon :o
(also pls subscribe)
I wish they kept dp rc
I definitely disagree with the Limitations are more interesting than options take from both of you. Because limitations and compensating for it just creates more polarizing matchups and if the limitations are against universal mechanics, it just creates an unnecessary hole in the character's kit. SF6 Marisa has this problem and AKI lost this problem in the current state of the game and the level of fun and viability for the characters are highly polarizing.
AKI got her jabs not confirming fixed, her anti fireballs and her anti airs fixed. These are very universal issues, but by getting these fixed she became far more rounded AND she was able to reliably leverage her unique mechanics and gimmicks.
Marisa conversely lost her armor crush on her stance and lost oki pressure while getting the "compensation" of greater damaging routes. What actually happened was that her usage plummeted because the compensation of damage does nothing because she will never get the opportunity to use her compensation. Now not only is she a definite bottom tier character, but she's not even fun to use because the limitations of her kit means that the options that she does have aren't even worth using. No one uses stance-> high/low because it sucks. No one uses any of her specials besides superman punch or gladius outside of combos because they all suck.
Xrd Potemkin sucked because they just kept on upping damage instead of giving him anything too.
Putting holes in my boat isn't making my boat cooler, it's sinking my boat. Edit: you can put this as my scrubquote. "Limitations suck, give me definitive answers"
@@HellecticMojo As the person who wrote that tweet, I'll say that "limitations are interesting" can certainly create a trash character, but "options are interesting" can also create a trash character - just one who does a bunch of (often random) shit badly. My point is more that if a character has a thing they are canonically not good at, it *should* push the devs to think abt what tools/capabilities should exist in the kit to make them "work". Marisa's original limitation of not great/highly telegraphed moves is interesting, b/c it gave Capcom the chance to say "how can we make these BIG options actually good/solid?" The armor was a unique solution that imposed a real choice on both players for how to approach fights with Marisa - and that's cool! I think they should've kept that aspect of her kit.
My pfp is Hisako from KI, and that's a grappler who can't walk (think Makoto). So how do you make a character who can't walk compete in a game with great zoning tools, teleporting skeletons, a werewulf who can dash through you for free cross-ups+has great buttons, and characters that fly all across the screen? B/c she can't easily reposition, she has to be able to hold court (long buttons and a counter), and b/c she's a grappler, she DOES need some capacity to close distance and force respect up close (great dash that low profiles+counter cancels). The inability to do some things creates interesting opportunities for sharp differences across MU's and chars, and personally I think that's a lot of fun. Not all designs should be sharp, but framing what a char is good and *actually* bad at creates a LOT of space for interesting developer and player choices. Lots of round designs means chars get to "do stuff", but also results in fights feeling same-y across even a large cast.
@Lordknightclips7878 Highly amused at your take on KI 😂 Not all games and aesthetics are for everyone so I actually 100% understand :-p
@@shadowonefoxx I think we were talking about different things. I think you are advocating for more diverse designs, which I can definitely agree with. Not everyone needs a DP or a projectile or a fast dash.
The limitation design that I'm railing against is "Hisako is a grappler so we'll buff the grab damage, but nerf the anti air" type of design where characters get built with holes in their kit that means that they can't answer certain things just because the deficiencies were built in.
I'm not asking for a DP, but for the love of god, can my OD lariat work? I'm not asking for a fullscreen hitscan, but can my standing pokes be used at all? I'm not asking for a full screen beam, but can I have a move that actually deals with the projectiles instead of being forced to block?
I don't need a homogenized copy, but I do demand direct and functional answers.
9:03 I agree that execution isn't the main thing keeping people away from fighting games (the things you listed are more impactful), but I can't think of another genre that asks players to practice for hours just to do basic moves somewhat consistently in a match.
Even when you do get them down, input errors are frustrating. I know a lot of people love practicing tight execution in training mode, but I'm at the point where I'd honestly like to skip that and focus on strategy.
"One of the best things about my job is that I'm literally allowed to hate for money, it's so sick." is an all time LK quote.
South America thanks you for remembering we exist, struggling but trucking along. A day where there are 40 people in Strive between tower and park is a party
Real, im kinda new (started July) and still the peak that i saw at Tower was 7 maybe? Open park has a lot more ofc
@@yokumob Yeah, unless you are in celestial, the tower is empty and the park is a bit of a problem, you will run into very strong players without knowing the basics.
Hopefully the netcode is OK enough to fight with people in NA
Quick advice for people playing Strive in South America: we're all playing in NA East coast, like seriously, not only is the netcode good enough that I can play from Argentina (OBVIOUSLY never on wifi), but I get matched in the 60ms- of delay quite often, meaning I got matched with a fellow brother.
I exclusively play Tower and have been able to find games even at like 3am
@@miskarletFGCdo you know if Granblue Rising south america people go to an specific region too?
@@miskarletFGC ̶t̶h̶a̶t̶'̶s̶ ̶f̶o̶r̶ ̶p̶e̶o̶p̶l̶e̶ ̶o̶n̶ ̶e̶a̶s̶t̶ ̶s̶o̶u̶t̶h̶ ̶A̶m̶e̶r̶i̶c̶a̶,̶ ̶f̶o̶r̶ ̶B̶r̶a̶z̶i̶l̶i̶a̶n̶s̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶b̶e̶s̶t̶ ̶i̶s̶ ̶U̶S̶ ̶W̶e̶s̶t̶
also those people with 60ms are people from your own country, is physically impossible to queue to someone in US with less than 100ms. even light is not fast enough for that. and internet is much slower than light
edit: my bad i got my directions wrong lmao
That delay based take has to be bait, I feel like even some oldhead who does the 'back in my day in the arcades' schtick would think thats cap
@@barrybeakdriver There are a few ... notable outspoken exceptions, but its still mega cap lol
@@itloaf thats crazy lmao. as someone who lives in an area where locals are few and far between, I cannot imagine seriously thinking that era was better
They aren't saying delay based netcode is better, they're saying the FGC at that time period is better. I don't see how that's bait.
@@beam5655 because the quality of the netcode is inherently tied to the betterment of the FGC. If the only way you can experience fighting games and its community is by physically going somewhere to have good quality matches then the community gets massively stifled. Ever since rollback got normalized, the FGC has grown a lot and the level of competition has risen. There are so many strong players now who got their start in the online scene rather than offline, the growth of the scene after fazing out delay based netcode is undeniable
@@barrybeakdriverIt's grown a lot ONLINE. I was running tournaments in my area and I saw in real time how long it took for people there to realise "Wait, I can just stay at home to play fighting games now." We went from full brackets at SF6 launch to 2 people by the time Ed dropped.
I understand this is a "well that's just you" situation but I just drove to another area, 3 hrs away, once thriving FGC area, was at the arcade on a Saturday... no one was there. Well, except the shmup and pinball guys. Their local FGC is just as dead as mine.
It's great to be able to play the game online but I wish that wasn't the only option. The community aspect of online play is... well lets be honest, there is no community in online play.
For me a lot of tournaments are just invisible, there's a lot of tournaments all over but if you're not already in a discord you'll never hear about them. Plus it's generally hard to find those groups unless they're built into the ui of the game or listed on the Mizuumi/Dustloop/etc
I'm still surprised that current day fighting games don't have built in weekly/monthly tournament events that are always an option to view or join directly from the in game online lobby menus.
Strive does on PS5, I dunno about other games though
@@lordknightclips7878 interestingly brawlhalla has this and more for their tournaments and it works pretty well, shame the game sucks tho
That's the inherent problem with closed-gate communities like Discord, and to a lesser extent twitter/facebook (because you can't access the content easily or at all if you don't have an account). It's not the world wide web where anyone can discover this information, and it is hurting new player onboarding big time.
"delay netcode was better" might be the dumbest take I've read in 2024. I remember when rollback was taking off and there were people defending delay because some japanese pro said "it works on my end" while playing in japan with other japanese players using japanese internet infrastructure, but that was like 2016 and still a dumb take then.
They said the delay based era had a better FGC. I don't think they're advocating for shitty online. Which is probably talking about the people in the scene being less annoying then as now. Which is kinda true, but really social media amplifies the hate a lot more than it really is.
You can disagree with a take, you really really shouldn't misrepreseny their argument and beat down that strawman.
I've played in both eras and when ggpo rollback was introduced around 2007-2008 that shit was revolutionary.
The fact it took so long to become a mainstream requirement when I had been playing poverty games with near flawless netcode for YEARS speaks to the ignorance and stubbornness of the devs
Yeah it fucking infuriates me, my Brazilian ass just wouldn't be able play fighting games if rollback wasn't here
As a Jack O player, you are entirely correct about the people wanting DP RC removed, but I also don't tweet and just play the game that exists. I'm glad it's gone though.
Im trying to focus but the character spinning in the bottom right is taking all of my attention lol
ONE OF US, ONE OF US, ONE OF US
Shantae has that effect
3:20 It's worth mentioning that Capcom players did the same thing in the '90s. Marvel was not considered a "serious game" until mid-late MVC1; SF heads used to call Marvel the "dial-a-combo" game.
some days online it feels like my hottest take is that strive is a fun, good game. everyone else is just determined to be unhappy
On god, and it's like some dudes don't wanna be caught out here enjoying a game.
Like bro it was your 60 bucks, love that shit.
Strive is g h e y.
“Can’t wait to get fucking pissed at GG Strive ranked today. God, I fucking love being mad.”
@@zombieeightpack1381Why you getting mad at ranked of all things. It's just a number?
@@intellectic9155 and i love it for that
16:00 is so real. Here in Mexico pre-2020 anything fighting game related was managed by the same 5-10 oldheads that only played KOF98, 2002, and *maybe* USF4. I thank God every day for Dany and everyone else at Mazatlan 🙏
Not counting the massive amount of smash ult tourneys organized by highschool/college kids of course :P
The one thing I dont understand is the removal of Gatling being considered beginner friendly is an oxymoron to me. What is easier than KPSH special?
Honest question: was there a "beginner friendly" change in strive that didn't backfire against beginners in some way?
Because you dont actually understand why they changed galtings in the first place. It wasnt to make combos easier, it was to make understanding pressure easier. With gatlings being standarized, its far easier to understand what options your opponent can actually pressure you with outside of special cancels, especially when its applied relatively evenly amongst the cast.
New players don't want to block but also don't want to learn their defense options.
@@giantdinoboy8264 changes for new players are never for little timmy who wants to mash close slash. Nothing you ever do will matter to them.
Changes aimed for newer players are largely for people that want to interact with the games deeper mechanics/systems without needing to learn 70000 different things at once, like understanding basic "turns" around low level pressure by learning strives simplified gatling structure.
it creates a clear purpose for pressing.
You expect what to get and be receiving depending on the buttons.
One of the biggest challenge for fighting games that people don't talk about besides execution is parsing of info.
Fighting games are very confusing. There's a recent video on Sin's food and how it's a bad move due to how confusing it is. Piccolo hellzone grenade pressure was predicated partially on covering the screen with garbage for making confusion. Knowing what to press and why you press it is the most basic level understanding that a new player needs to know.
when talking about accessibility we mean like colorblind options, blindness options, hard of hearing options, etc
Dont expect reason from that part of the community
Good ending - that last comment resonates with me so very much, as someone whose love of fighting games came first from BlazBlue and MvC3, and has always found "grounded footsies" style fighting boring by comparison.
@@Zevox87 I mean, I'm a big "footsies fighter" lover myself, but that doesnt mean that i cant acknowledge that anime and vs games are sick too lol
(in case i was unclear on the internet, that was me being on your side)
Ill never forgive traditional Fighters for not letting me combo a light punch into a heavy punch
@@itloaf All good, I'm with you. I may much prefer air-dashers and team fighters personally, but I'm glad the grounded footsies games are there for those who love them, and can acknowledge there's cool stuff in them too. I've even played quite a bit of Granblue this year - though that having 66L and some air blocking helps.
@@MegafanX123CURSE YOUUU, KING OF FIGHTEEEERS
Fighting games don’t need to be easier to learn they need to be easier to pick up and play.
People want games they can buy and mess around with friends.
Are you saying that more fighting g's should be free to play?
@@surrendering2within decidedly not. Free to play is usually antithetical to a pick up and play philosophy because they require long term engagement (ie building a core audience that sticks with the game long term). Not to say they can’t be but a “finished” game without updates is often easier to play with an audience who maybe plays the game once a month at parties.
@@surrendering2within
Demos with limited characters and limited modes wouldn't be bad. Would at least give people the chance to try out the game and mechanics before dedicating the $60-$70 + DLC to it.
@@ezraho8449 thanks for clarifying
@@espurrseyes42 granblue fantasy versus rising actually does that and I think it works insanely well. Wouldn't have bought it (albeit half off rn) if the demo didn't exist
You're so real for saying that about KI near the end lmao. Gameplay-wise it's so fun, but it's SO hard to look past the aesthetic. Specially the characters glitching from one key pose to the next because the combo system demands it. And the absurdly busy screen between all the particles, shadows, flashing lights and backgrounds. The silly SFX are almost charming, though.
KI looks like a made up M rated game in a TV show lol (not saying that's bad)
KI is the ultimate filter game. It sounds like one of the best fighting games in the past decade but you have to look past it offending all of your artistic sensibilities
To me it almost kinda looks like someone made a stop-motion animation of the action figures they had lying around (which I guess isn't entirely inaccurate considering the original KI was animated using the Mortal Kombat method).
@@nivrap_ the original KI was not animated using digitized sprites like mortal kombat, it was prerendered graphics like donkey kong country
@@kydaper8089EXACTLY, like something they'd play on the GameSphere™
My hot take is why the hell strive doubled its price in my region. they just doubled the base price of the game and I am sed
Curious, what region?
@@freshboy3968 India
India
When someone responds with the picture of the guy being like ”yes all of you are wrong” except people just don’t know the counterplay to something
Why the fuck am I "counterplaying" cheese. It's bad shit design.
If an AI can be the best player the game is bad.
@ Chess
@@jonathanhoward1499chess
Pretty sure the "accessibility problem" comment is about disability accessibility, not about making it easier to pick up the game.
they prob shoulda specified that lmao bc i thought exactly what LK thought bc of how common that complaint is about fg not being accessible 😭
I agree, but I’m not aware of the accessibility options for 2XKO.
If a disability doesn't affect your ability to pick up the game does it really need to be catered to? Maybe it does but I can't think of an example off the top of my head. Moreover, if we're making the game more accessible, as in easier, simplified and/or also adding ways for people with disabilities that couldn't otherwise pick up the game and do well to do so, is that really what we want? Does everything have to be super accessible to everyone regardless of capabilities? What's wrong with having a difficult game?
@@prosaic4195 He's talking about things like the beeping when you get closer to an opponent to make it easier to play with eyesight issues. This only makes the game easier to physically play for certain people. This doesn't make the game more or less difficult for normal people.
In my experience it is people who want it to be easy cloaking themselves in the trappings of genuine good faith disability based concern trolling
Shout-out to "netcode was good actually" guy for actually having an argument that no-one agreed with.
I think SF6 has the right idea with Battle Hub and World Tour
That last take is something I have been saying pretty much ever since I got into fighting games.
5:30 i agree with the take and i still fuck with that energy lmao
A big reason why LoL runs two week patches is that when your roster is 100+ characters with less options per character and any given game can devolve into 40+ minutes, players develop a very low patience for seeing the same stuff over and over again in queue. And in TFT, some big reasons why they have to run two week patches is 1) There is only a limited amount of time on any particular set (4 months), and each set is completely different and 2) TFT as a game system kind of breaks if people aren't playing with some diversity due to the bag sizes (imagine if top 8 were all trying to play the same character, but for each person trying to play that character, you can magically coinflip a loss with no input; it's that kind of situation).
nah RIOT just makes the most garbage patch decisions and the most garbage champion designs with repetitive sht thats why they regularly update the game to make people feel like theyre trying to make the game play not always the same when it always does regardless
And the player base has been actively screeching about how having a constant patch cycle is horrendous given that they keep adding new things to be annoyed with. Riot wouldn't need to have consistent patches if they just take a breather and level the balance.
@@naiustheyettia game like league can never be 100% balanced, no competitive game is because there will always be outliers which is what makes the game dynamic. And the really big system mechanics only really happen in pre season and maybe mid season. If riot went 2 months without patching something people would be up in pitchforks as well
@@wendigoszn8594 LoL can never be 100% balanced but it could be a lot better than it is now. They have too many characters nobody plays, and thats partially because they keep pumping out crazy overtuned new characters who do what 3 other characters combined did but better. LoL at a competitive level is miserable with a character pool of like 20-30 out of what 150 characters? Recently at worlds an NA team took a game off of a top Korean team just because they didn't know how Nunu worked because it gets 0 play in Korea. That game is a shambles.
@@globmonkey200716102 Champions entire pickrates don’t get decimated due to new releases, it just makes everyone’s pickrates slightly lower on average
As newer player to fighting games the hard part about learning is, it's so hard to deal with the mental stack and actually do the things I want in game. Also if they want to keep new players, some incentives besides rank would keep my casual friends playing more than once
Fighting Games really gotta step up with single player content, and develop AI so that it isn't switching between literally cheating and letting you hit them. Only good example I can think of is Killer Instinct's Shadow Survival, as the AI copies a certain player's fighting style. Combo patterns, movement patterns, grab attempts, everything basically, it's all copied in a way so every fight you have is different as well, you're practically fighting another player.
Yet even in that SAME FUCKING GAME, the normal AI that you fight in other modes does what I said before of switching between cheating and letting you hit them. They'll punish you for throwing out a quick light attack from a fair distance away with a Shadow move (basically EX moves) and then stand there for a few seconds and let you wail on em.
I don't know why fighting game developers don't branch out their single-player games into sidescrolling beat-em up games like Ninja Warriors, Guacamelee and Okinawa Rush type games. It would make so much sense. It would allow players to learn how to play fighting games in a single player focused environment without competing with another human being. Same core gameplay; jumping, dashing, blocking, attacking with all your normals and specials, but in wide open areas with platforming elements. Enemies and environments could be designed to teach you how to jump, crouch, dash, block, combo, etc. in a very seamless manner.
Damn that would be so much fun, i've been playing fighting games for 30+ years and i'd definitely play a sidescrolling GG Strive beat'em up game.
lordknight -"we had tiny tournaments melty blood act cadenza only 20 people" in australia that is absolutely massive turnout for any game other than smash
I'm from Paraguay and being a fighting game player has been such a nightmare sometimes thanks for the shotouts
Killer instinct (2013) has some of the best netcode & matchmaking in fighting games. Within 5 seconds or less it finds a match. Especially now that it has cross play between Xbox and steam.
Execution was a part of strategy. Hate to be the 9,000,000th guy to bring up SF4 but 90% of characters don't require "Hard Combo" but you could make a decision to risk the drop for the damage. I'm actually All for auto-combos and easy inputs as long as they aren't as strong as the "not easy" versions of the moves. But just straights up removing player player expression because not every player will be able to perform the action is beyond ridiculous to me. We should be lowering skill floors, and raising the ceilings, not just straight up lowering both. Call me crazy but CASUALS DON'T COMPETE, so a fighting game's design shouldn't revolve around the idea of casuals being able to win EVO.
It's really fun when you have a game that's hard enough where almost no one is able to play optimal 100% of the time so most people just end up doing what works for them
casuals have already won evo, shout out to CPU winning Brawl in 2008 over Ken just because his family was vacationing to Las Vegas and decided to enter a video game tournament for fun
This reminds me of buying sf6 for two of my friends only to hear them use modern controls as a scapegoat for why they don't like the game. It made me realize despite how much I tried to explain the nuance; some people only want to believe what they want.
This is an easy fix. I hardly play "M" players. In the right mood I may actually play the match. But most of the time, I take a "If you can't be bothered to actually play SF, then neither can I." And I'll just sit there, or mock them by smashing buttons and doing random stuff the whole time. It's also like to bait them into a custom just to tell them to go play something else. If you can't play on classic, SF isn't for you. And that's OK.
@@intellectic9155 dude, that's incredibly salty and pathetic
@@intellectic9155 But if you lose consistently against someone using Modern Controls and you play on Classic, who is the better player ?
@@intellectic9155 Not only are you a toxic shit-head, you also completely misunderstood what the person you're replying to was saying.
@@intellectic9155 damn, didn't know modern controls played neutral for you. However, I haven't played SF6 as a whole, so I might not see how modern controls make the entire game easier (outside of combos)
It's unbelievable how M instantly installs MU knowledge, all the nuances about pressure and how to play neutral
Seriously tho, you like the person who labbed 2 BNBs and believes they know wtf they're doing
On the region stuff - while obviously there are many places that have it way worse than me, there's large regions even in North America where travel still sucks. I live in western Canada and the closest major to me is in California, and so that necessitates me taking extra days off to travel - flights are relatively limited, and so I basically have to make a long weekend out of it. And again, I have it easy compared to folks off-continent. But then I hear people go 'oohhhhh I have a three hour drive to this tournament and it's so far and maybe I shouldn't go' and it's actually the most frustrating shit ever hahahaha. I wish, man!
Netplay being so much better makes it much easier to learn - it means I can actually play with strong players in a much larger region, fill in MUs, join netplay brackets. And like, yeah, obviously rollback isn't perfect (hit confirming using the health bar in rollback is annoying) but it's so so so so much better.
We used to have: Canada Cup, Overture, Pinnacle, and North West Major's.
Now there's nothing regular.
I liked grabbing DP's they should of kept that in
It makes me sad that we'll never see a Sol get humiliated by the triple buster ever again...
The solution for problems found in FGs is in the Soulcalibur series. Always has been.
Real. I wish Soul Calibur was the premier Bamco fighting game series
The fall of Soul Calibur is the tragedy of our time
Execution comment is valid. Fighting games aren't a game of chess to focus exclusively on strategy, the reason why they're sick is combination of strategy, real time fighting and execution
In defense of the execution guy: if you're all but guaranteed to get your max damage combo every time you touch the opponent because the execution is easier, it makes it less hype. Going for those tourney-safe combos to be safe and stuff is part of strategy, and it gets dampened to a degree if execution is easy.
Strategy is wonderful, but I like the strategy and hype that comes when execution is a lil difficult.
except tourney safe combos happen anyways. It's called tourney safe because it is and you are gonna see billions of it. Evo moment 37 is called evo moment 37 because it's a moment. The game was not built for that to be the standard, so saying that execution needs to be harder for hype is just missing the point. In all likelihood in alternate timeline EM37 would never happen precisely because of the hard execution and SF3 would be forgotten as that game that people played for a while.
@@HellecticMojo This is a weird take because moment 37 DID happen. And it was BECAUSE of the execution required.
Sure. There is a chance that it couldn't. But you know what? If the execution was way lower, it's not a chance. It DEFINITELY wouldn't happen and reach the legendary status it has today. Because it'd be something everyone can just do.
@@HellecticMojo The Daigo parry is actually demonstrates what I mean very well -- if you could just do an sf6 parry, parrying chun's SA2 wouldn't have been hype. It's precisely because that parry was so novel and difficult that it became legendary.
I'm not saying execution needs to be "hard", but I am saying that if execution is decidedly "easy" then certain things like big combos are just a bit less hype.
oh and for tourney safe combos -- thats also the point -- its hype seeing someone take a risk to do a "tourney unsafe" combo. But if every combo is easy to execute, then that side of things is largely gone
@@itloaf not really. Audience doesn't care. HC is execution heavy as hell, but you don't see anyone hype for the gremlin while people get hype for triple potbuster. No one is hype for Arakune despite him being a neutral and execution nightmare. Everyone was cheering for Spark against LK when Litchi is far more execution intensive character compared to Hakumen
The Delay Netcode one drives me nuts because it felt like you legit couldn't play seriously outside of your locals unless there was someone's house that you could go to on a whim for games. Also if your area just doesn't play your game then you're kind of fucked and forced to play online, which doesn't play how the game is really intended (like online warriors in DBFZ doing fucking 6M and dragon rush in 6f delay and feeling themselves). Now I can just hop on and play a game whenever I want and it will be 99% similar to me playing offline in terms of match quality.
Also traveling could be expensive and adds up. I was in Alaska for a bit and traveling for anything, ANYTHING, was a big ask. I go back a few times a year to visit my family and it's not only a long trip but it costs me about $700 to do it.
7:27 I hard agree with that, SF6 with its world tour mode was hella fun and kept me, a person new to fighting games, out of the lab and actually vs cpu's. Learning the game bit by bit and having a ton of fun
The issue has never been games being hard. That’s not really accessibility considering people have completed Elden ring with. Disability.
The issue is LEARNING the game. And xrd outclassed like all games since then. Sf6 also has had a nice level up and more AI non-input reading modes have been popping up too. I’m just waiting on arcsys to get to it.
On-boarding & IN-GAME parity along with shit to do that’s not ONLY doing matches and feeling like you’re progressing even when you lost
Also idk what guy was on about delay-based. Bro was tweaking
Xrd tutorial is goated. So fun pressing buttons in that game.
I've almost only ever heard bbtag is bad because of the controls/simplified elements, and also the reused assets. I've never in my life seen a hater talk about all the busted shit the game has lmao.
With that said it's absolutely a hateable game. But maybe try to actually play it first
The busted stuff is what makes it fun though. Hating on the reused assets and the dlc practices are valid though. Yumi player btw
I think the game is pretty good. There isn't too many characters with plus frames but the few that have plus frames have pretty intuitive pressure and easy combos. It feels like a modern fighting game but with less of a focus on ham strung system mechanics. I think it's best enjoyed as a little effort in lots of laughs with your friends out kind of game but that's just me.
@@michaelopole1866 I mean I agree lol. I just see why it would turn like an sf5 player off for instance
he just skipped the grappler post lmfao
The nerve we grapplers have fair takes too
@@axeoseilez3207 no
Shout out to Orion's neighborhood.
fighting game community is a whole contradiction everyone especially in mk community says their main character is low tier all of them do regardless of who it is.
If they can throw shit at their opponents characters during play, and after that still go and share tech, practice together or do nerd talk over a beer, that is a great community.
MK is arguably one of the worst groups within the FGC, overly toxic and barely commited to the offline level, which is why so many look at them with contempt, and why MK is no longer considered in the Top 3 in the FGC.
8:48 - 9:40 is absolutely 100% spot on
The Killer Instinct vibe is like it's from a world where Power Thirst is still the funniest shit ever and not nearly 20 years old.
Also living on the East Coast, there was the break. They were still kicking for several years until recently.
6:30 I can't stress how the most fun part either from a viewing or playing standpoint is NOT a flashy combo (some exceptions apply where you convert off of something thats uncommon) but is the interactions (EVO Moment 37 instantly comes to mind). Personally, i couldnt care less if you spent 100s of hours in the lab doing a unoptimised unrealistic flashy combo what matters are moments where you clutch a game or read the opponent (there's a reason Tekken has a slow mo when both players are trying to land a hit at critical health)
nah put all my sick bombos at .25 speed so i can enjoy pressing buttons and seeing lights flash for longer frfr
Do you really think that daigo did what he did in moment 37 without labbing the parry for 100s of hours?
As someone who for whatever reason always gravitates to characters without meterless reversals in every FG I pick up... Working around limitations does feel rewarding, but at the same time it also gives you a very convenient excuse for when you lose; this can be a bad thing for mental.
"i cant take KI seriously" is the biggest wrong take ever, everything about that game rocks, i want a guy screaming "ULTRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA" at me 24/7
I mean, I'm retired and have nothing but time. $20-$25 an hour and I'll not only scream ultra at you 24/7. I'll rock a giant boombox playing that metal AF theme on loop
The game just hurts my eyes. The prevalence of bloom effects, that edge glow, I've just never liked it. I disliked a lot of scifi games in 7th gen especially because of those effects and it bugged me a lot for KI
@@HellecticMojoThis I can understand. Visually in terms of bloom and rendering it's a mess.
I often think about KI and imagine the visuals and go "ew how can people like this game" but then I touch it and get into it a bit and I'm like "oh yeah. It fucking rocks"
Contrast to the visuals the sound design is pretty amazing to. I'm having a hard time thinking of an attack that sounds as vicious as Fulgor's hype beam.
i can't help but just laugh lol
I'm not saying the game is bad, I just think it's funny as fuck
Between CH, PC, and adding drive rush to the mix, I think Street Fighter 6 has a fantastic variety of combos that gets brought down so so much by the fact that drive rush cancelling from a long poke will always have the same combo and it's what you will be doing most of the time. There isn't even much of SF6's famous "resource management" going on in these combos because it simply isn't worth spending more than you've already spent most of the time on these routes.
16:37 guy from Brazil (south america) here. One of the main reasons i play strive is because of the amazing rollback, because even tho nobody plays in south america, i can play in east usa pretty well
yeah removing your games identity is the best change and making it generic is the best decision.
16:05 (im from Chile) literally got DQ'd from a tourney yesterday for a bad connection (i was playing with LAN but the internet services in my city SUCKS ASS). Also almost every locals in my region are either for Smash/MK1/Tekken 8, i only play Strive and sometimes Uni2 and SF6... And if a local that has Strive exists? It's not on my region and i would have to pay like 10 dollars just to get there (forgot to mention im poor)
Nah that last one is gonna piss people off lmao
Oh yeah I remember the talk around BlazBlue. For how fun the game was when it first came out, you'd have thought the sky was falling. We only forgot about that drama when they figured out the Carl infinite.
Re: League/TFT
The two week patches are largely small tweaks to stats for items/characters. Whether it's a slight damage nerf/buff or a base stat nerf/buff, it's typically pretty easy to figure out what is happening - the nerfed stuff got weaker, the buffed stuff got stronger (sometimes this isn't true but it largely is). Basically unless a character gets reworked or added, everyone's moves still work the same so it's mostly just numbers and due to sites that allow you to analyze every character and every item build based on rank for every individual and world wide it is easier to figure what things are what tier.
There are only 2 or 3 major patches a year that change how the game works at a fundamental level. Major patches are things like item overhauls, rune overhauls, map overhauls, the way the entire jungle works, etc and those take significantly longer to figure out and adjust to - even with the surplus of information and data sets.
7:30 i think mk11 does what you mention the best out of any fighting game I've played. i have over 80 hours in that game and less than 1 hour of that is actually fighting other players. To me it delivers a complete experience to someone that doesn't have the time to invest into learning how to not get curbstomped by a random guy online that was born holding a hitbox.
on the other hand GGST feels like its 2 generations behind games like sf6, tekken 8 and mk1. as a new player i found the fact that you can't switch input devices on the fly, not being able to use the mouse in menus, and I'm not even gonna touch on how horrible getting into an actual match is, in comparison to the previously mentioned games. If i wan't already invested in learning strive and i booted it up for the first time i would've just refunded the game instantly.
why is LK so absolutist about execution. Just cause someone appreciates execution doesn’t mean that they don’t care about strategy. I think it’s cool when someone can react to an option with a well executed dp motion and when it’s just hold a direction and a button, I think it’s less cool, is that so unreasonable?
There's a whole video explaining why that's perfectly reasonable.
@@espurrseyes42 I didn’t say LK’s view was unreasonable, I just don’t like how LK is acting like the other perspective is completely unreasonable
@@scnoz1430
I was talking about the opinion on One Button DPs. There's a whole video going over how those affected P4A gameplay and why taking issue with them is perfectly reasonable.
THANK YOU for bringing up south america brother, it's so hard out here lol
19:18 what is that hahahaha. Where can I see what he's referring to about Injustice?
Last one gotta be the realest shit ever
not LK being the most selfless, understanding and tolerant fg player then coming across a grappler player’s opinion and saying “nah fuck that”
I'll give the BBTAG controls thing a bone, but not in the way that they're saying.
I would have loved if BBTAG was 4 attack buttons, 2 tag based buttons and worked like DBFZ.
The 3 button system kind of made it look like they're were jamming stuff into autocombos and hoped they worked. Some characters it was great. Some characters it was lackluster. And it showed when they remodeled a few Persona characters movelists/autocombos.
Aigis had a crammed movelist and Megido was ONLY 25 meter version. So they took away her fast gatling gun and gave her a meterless Megido to make it easier for people to do combos without hard researching Discord. But the fast gatling gun was a big deal for neutral and she doesn't have good assists so I thought the idea was "make her very strong as a point and go ham as long as she has assists to work with"
She's already great with solo combos already, probably one of the best. Megido has some active switch team synergy but this could have been solved if she had a A, B, C, D to split between specials.
If Kanji could use the tackle and lightning as a D button command like in Persona. They would have liked that.
They were also probably going for balance and minimalism (they definitely recycled a lot even with RWBY characters). At least 3 different meta dark ages happened so idk if they were ever successful.
Really liked the take on accessibility.
I think the FGC should be catering just as much as casuals as they do to the top players. Fighting Games that have an X-factor for casuals can help them be more sustainable. Tekken has this crazy story and great graphics, SF6 has so much non-versus stuff, and GG has one of the best art/music direction in a game. At least at my locals, these games are the most popular ones that have people show up regularly for brackets and casuals.
That smash opinion is so obnoxious. There are so many people who play smash casually that are always shitting on competitive play for no reason. Why? What tf do you care? You never see mkleo or whoever talk shit about people who play with items on, why does little jimmy have to act like pokeball sniping on temple is the only "real" way to play the game?
It’s not that serious relax bro
@@peterpansie5This is literally the forum for an opinion like that. No need to be patronizing.
It's because online discussion of Smash is _only_ competitive play. Combine this with the fact that competitive play is considered _the_ way to play and it is understandable why someone has such an opinion and why it is somewhat popular.
Pro Smash players don't need to talk shit about casual play because they are already considered playing the game the properly. Why talk about a format that doesn't matter?
Because Competitive Smash is a joke. No other game needs to strip out its content to the level of Smash to just get it going and call it the definitive way to play.
@@HellecticMojoNo one is saying playing competitively is the "definative" way to play Smash. And I really fail to see how stuff like Pokeballs getting toggled off makes competitive Smash illegitimate somehow.
God, the people that say "Strive isn't a Guilty Gear game" really bother me more than they should. Like no, your random list of preferences towards the older games doesn't get to determine what games belong in the series. Yes, Strive is a Guilty Gear game, it says it right in the title. Even Guilty Gear 2 Overture is a Guilty Gear game. I can see why some people don't like Strive or just prefer the older titles, but tryjng to gatekeep it from the series feels needlessly patronizing to the people trying to enjoy it.
For TFT, the game balances often imo because a) it balances at leagues cadence and b) every player always has access to all the tools, and units aren’t individually filled with depth, it’s the combinations of them and pathways to making them strong that add complexity. Every unit of the same cost should be roughly on the same power level and it’s obvious when that’s not true.
In fighting games, the characters typically are more in depth because the characters are the entirety of the system, whereas other factors play into the other aspects of tft
I don't play grapplers, but I gotta say that that one was spot-on.
Before I got out of competitive CCGs I was always a much bigger fan of decks after they'd gone through a ban cycle or two. Deck building was just vastly more interesting once they started taking away op tools.
I'm completely on board with the guy saying it's better to design around missing tools.
Why you look old and young at the same time dawg.
im dying
5:30 As a grappler main in quite a few fighting games, all I gotta say is, "Get 360° or 720°'ed. Sorry, not sorry."👌
Damn, those grey hairs giving me idris elba vibes
Being a south african the rollback era has been so much better. Its a pretty big country with a very small fighting game community. Only a few Tekken and SF6 tournements run in cape town and johannesburg but none for other fighting games like strive, mortal combat ro granblue. The south african strive community is primarily an online one where we just log on and practice together, occationally doing a casual tournement in park. Without rollback there would be no strive community straight up
whats the song that starts at 14:23 ?
Touch and go, the airport theme from tekken 4
@@daasura4752 thanks!
The take about limitations having no likes lowkey made me sad. It's actually so true
has anyone noticed how cute his eyelashes are?
G h e y.
LK a cutie fr
Yes😊
This'll sound weird, but I think the delay netcode guy is talking about the online culture of games back then. It was semi-normal back than to join a public lobby and voice chat with the people there while watching the one fight going on.
Legit curious about that delay netcode being better, I really wish they elaborated.
BBTAG when it came out was pretty much auto combo the game with assists...
after updates and discoveries such as being safe to Resonate on air, Cross Combo, Tag after doing a move... started to be forgiven for the simple inputs...
but now is kind of spam specials the game. Many characters are safe doing heavy specials and way more with good tags to protect or confuse the opponents...
I'm gonna say it again . Fighting games aren't too hard . People are just too used to having their hands held and being lead through the same things in single player games . When you're up against someone who's better it doesn't matter if it's marvel or fantasy strike, you're going to get rocked
Stop lowering the skill ceiling of these games and instead lower the floor, steamline the things that make it fun, and then teach people how to use those tools
If a marvel 3 clone had a one button dash macro that didn't accidentally super it might end up being the greatest fighting game of all time (no bias here)
The 2xko community is learning fast how even good league players are going to struggle with fighting games despite the simplified controls cause there's so much more after that first step
How can you say Fighting games aren't hard etc etc and then say games should lower the skill floor on the same breath? You not making sense and just saying random stuff lol.
@@gjergjipocari8227 I said fighting games arent "Too hard" . As in the thing people have been saying about them for decades. Its not that the combos are too hard, its that you havent put in the time to do more than button mash. When you start to learn combos you get a little bit more from them, then you start to understand neutral and the game really starts. But until that point it doesnt matter if you have diamond inputs or one button supers. The streamline thing is just common sense. Like smash took away wave dashing and other high level mechanics (Bugs lol) but imagine how much more hype it would be if they streamlined those into the game. If youre going to make anything easier it should be things like this that still keep heavy layers of complexity rather than making combos and specials dumbed down and truly just lowering the skill floor without any depth next to it
@@azawarauthecat1268"Combos aren't too hard" I am serious when I say I literally got a migraine trying to do one of Kyo's rekkas in KOF15, and some combos even in recent modern fighting games like SF6 sometimes have very small link opportunities to make even basic combos work, I've put probably over a hundred hours of time into practicing combos, spacing of attacks, emphasizing neutral and spacing, etc. Combos are hard, especially with all the random factors that happen when fighting someone in a match.
@@Manglet762 Im really loving the focus on the combo thing. Im not saying hard combos dont exist , theyre just not the problem players think they are. Put two players against eachother where one can land that crazy one frame link combo every single time but the other is a master of neutral and spacing with day 1 baby combos then place a bet on whos gonna win it.
The combos themselves might be hard but they dont have to be. Understanding the fundamentals is hard and takes time but thats what makes a great player
@@gjergjipocari8227
Read the rest of that sentence.
5:30 Nah, he's right; so many people just play on autopilot and hate when they fight a character that forces them to change how they approach a match.
Crazy to think people complain more than play the game.
Options make the game versatile. Limitations make the game deeper. A game where you have to take real decisions, with both benefits and drawbacks, is a good, interesting game.
That's why I hate shotos. Too often their lack of limitations transforms them in the only option.
But theyre always mid tier as well. I personaly hate rushdown because their stuff is being fast and do big damage and big combos, wich is fundamentaly a win condition making they always dominating the top tier list.
@@MegafanX123”They’re always mid tier”
Idk how you could be so wrong so quickly but Ken and Akuma say otherwise.
@AMnotQ ken and Akuma are also much more rush down oriented than other shotos though. also Akuma is a boss character he will never NOT be good they won't allow it.
Re:TFT balance patches
Unlike fighting games, there isn't a huge commitment to attempting to play the best units. Yes you have to learn a bunch circumstantial decisions and optimizations for those. But your general game sense + them being the best units remains in your favor. Another aspect of this is that adjacent builds to the strong units become great overnight 2nd tier options. Since the game involves a lot of branches overlapping, if one branch gets bigger every subsequent branch goes up in value. On top of that, being a complete player requires you to have passing knowledge of the entire game. If the game serves you a spot that you play comp X 80% of the time, you're already expected to know how to lean into that rather than going for comp Y you're more familiar with but has a lower win rate given your current spot in game. One tricking is possible, but not optimal play
This creates a lot of group think where people just try to force those comps or those comps take 1-2 spots out of 8 in the leaderboard. And this happens every single game. So you're subject to samey games because the accessibility to those strategies is very friendly. It's rarely that they're super imbalanced (it does happen), but if you have a mix of bad comps + strong comps, people bitch about that. Also the pros/streamers play like 12+ hours a day, so that doesn't help lmaoo
This blends into the 2nd aspect of it, they recognize TFT is a content driven game. FGs are the games where a dedicated crowd will ask for balance to remain the same for 6 months with NRS being the big exception. TFT as a conscious design decision values keeping the game fresh, releasing an entire new set every 4 months. So it's sometimes not just balance decisions, but also giving new life to archetypes that don't work, new mechanics and revamped systems for the long term health of the game that spray sporadically between it all.
I play TFT daily casually and unless we were on a really bad patch, I probably experience the outliers, but it's still generally muted in my experience. Good luck can have me pick up undeserved wins since it's baked into the design as well. Different strategies, different player base, different expectations.
my hot take is that the smash bros comp timers are way too long. 7/8 minutes is absurd and I find it weird that every TO is okay with each 3/5 round having a maximum time play of 40 minutes if every round goes game 5 and all timeouts. timing out in every other fighting game every single round of a match will never even be close to 7/8 minutes. time outs are so normal in every fighting game but smash, but m2k and others have the idea that a lower timer will cause more timeouts overall like thats the end of the world but they forget to realize that smash is the campiest fgc of all games hands down, i promise hbox is playing for timeout at the 7:59 mark
The reason why timing out in every other fighting game will never get as close to eight minutes is cause there's more stocks in smash bros than rounds in other fighting games and not having a life bar means you can live absurdly long. Generally matches in Smash Bros last far longer than those in other games which is why the match timer is so long.
As for why timeouts would be a bad thing for Smash it's cause of how much easier it is to stall for time with better movement and ledge intangibility and the fact that stalling for 99 seconds in a game where it's harder to stall is hype (sometimes) whilst stalling for an entire 5 minutes in a game where it's far easier is boring and uninteresting. And yes people would Stall more if the timers were shortened. It's pretty simple and logical, if there's less time needed to stall then it becomes easier to stall meaning people will.
@@weesticles650 people will stall regardless of time if that is their strategy from the start. your basically created a social contract instead of having genuine rules
also when u consider a stock to be a round, it still is much longer than other fighting game rounds
“Smash is the campiest fighting game hands down”
Bro you mentioned an NRS title but forgot Injustice exists.
@@rockyino99 correct, however people are far less likely to stall if they have to stall for a longer period of time. They also have implemented anti-stalling rules, you know that right? The ledge grab limit is specifically a rule to punish stalling by refreshing ledge invulnerability. Certain other forms of stalling as well such as Peach using side special off of the side of some stages are also outright banned. Only reason we don't have an air time limit as well is because it could due more harm than good since being in the air isn't a purely defensive thing.
Also yes each stock often lasts longer than a round, I never made the point that it didn't. I simply said there were more stocks than rounds, AND then I said how each stock lasts forever due to how people can last to extremely high percents. By trying to nitpick a point I didn't even make I honestly question if you even read what I commented.
Fighting games do NOT have to be designed around guesses to be good, fun, and competitive.
Forcing everything is the future unforch
If im honest, i agree both with you and the tweet when it coems to modern games trying hard to get new players in with modern control schemes.
In the end they are listening to the people they want to play their games: the people intimidated by fighting games. But the problem is those people dont know what the fuck theyre talking about. Theyre intimidated, but its not just the controls, its guys who are deep into the community that intimidate them. So you are right, theyre doing the wrong thing, they should be adding offline and coop modes. But i dont blame them for being wrong because they are just taking what people think is their honest truth.
I got one : blocking is fun
6:42 that's so Blazblue-brained lol. I'm really not a fan of gated combo routes like Blazblue does. To me Guilty Gear XX's solution with the guard bar scaling light starters is much more refined. You get the same combo, but it hurts way less if it starts with a light attack because it depletes the guard bar more, especially if you were mashing lights. Except if you had your opponent's guard bar cranked, where then it does max damage until the guard bar depletes. Very fluid and elegant system.
ULTRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA COMBOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO serious fighting game btw
I think the take that people who like execution and want it in modern games don’t like tactics or strategy is such a scrubby take. What, I don’t give a shit about any other aspect of the game suddenly because I want sauce? Thats stupid. I dont think games become boring per se because of lack of execution but I do think that an element of expression is lost in how you chose to practice the game, and saying that I told on myself or some shit because that’s one of my favourite aspects of fgs is extremely goofy and tells me that either you like feeling cool for doing “hard” shit in modern games with barely any practice and envy people who give enough of a shit to practice optimizing, or you are just being ignorant to sound smart
My hot take is that balance is overrated in fighting games, not every character should be equally good.
12:27 this take is acc pretty good
I used to play DBFZ and at the early stages of the game most characters were actually designed around strenghts and weaknesses but over the patches some characters weaknesses were removed and others didnt get the same treatment seemingly without reason or planning, really killed my interest for playing the game
Can't you like motion inputs and also care about strategy at the same time?
KI is just anime Street Fighter. Good ass game
my hottest take is my deep dislike of dp's/reversals. (i play pot so you can guess why). im hopeful for the armored buster since it will force people to expend 50 meter (reversal or red roman cancel) or play rock paper scissors and pot wont immediately lose his turn to a dp since he has to work so hard to get in (baskets is likely the only dp that would take a turn back as its multihit)
That's mostly just a problem with RC allowing for safe DPs.
@@budgetcommander4849 yeah, i was very happy to see dp rc go the way of the dodo. at worst you spent 50% meter to get out, at best you could go into a full combo and potentially wall break to get said meter that was used back. it was crazy.
100% agree, I think dp's are so underrated. Against someone that knows how to use dp you actually have to play offense completely different. In a game like street fighter I think it's fine because of the risk reward. In guilty gear tho the damage you take for just getting mixed and the damage you take for guessing wrong on a dp is pretty similar and the game is so volatile that going back to neutral even once can lose you the game
Honestly they already took out DP RC and few people have meterless reversals. And DP’s are slower, and the multi hit ones aren’t invincible anymore. One of DP’s main purposes is denying people their turn and resetting to neutral to play rushdown again. Personally I really can’t sympathize with characters who have skewed risk reward for being closer, complaining about DP’s existing. Con your opponent into a safe jump, or keep them out. There are strategies, archetypes even, to avoid having to deal directly with some of your opponents defensive options. Pot players will consistently say this character is to hard to approach his ceiling yet they continue to try and make this character easier. Aside from a few bad patches that everyone has, DP’s are really the concern?
@@tragicblvd the effort of a safe jump vs the effort required to input a dp isn’t comparable and if I dp was solely about denying a turn and being a defensive option then it should have 0 offensive utility. The skewed risk reward is the punishment for letting it get to the point where pot is in your face. If you let him in that’s already something you did wrong. So to get in as a grappler just to have your first crumb of a turn get taken away feels pretty ass not gonna lie. The grappler archetype is big damage off the grab but that doesn’t mean much when said grab is about the same as a combo you see at high levels that can be converted into from most things. I am aware of safejumps and use them (I’m a celestial pot) but the fact you can turn any disadvantageous situation into a neutral situation at any time is absurd. I’ll take this opinion to my grave that dp’s (at least in strive) are incredibly lame
I really do hate how much modern fgs cater to rushdown. I don't mind aggressive games I play gg with an understanding that that's how the game is but do we really need universal run into your opponent mechanics? I'm just not a fan of the game deciding what pace the players play at.
I think it's mostly just because that's what most people have come to expect from Fighting Games. Afterall, in their minds, whats the alternative? Play the zoner game? Rushdown is just what most people enjoy.
@@sicklysweetdenouement I think that's a fair assessment but Personally I enjoy playing mid screen so maybe that's why I feel differently.
One thing I find very interesting with the FGC is the constant talk about why fighting games aren't more popular. You don't really see other niche genres pining away for mainstream support like the FGC does.
As to why I personally think fighting games have less appeal than FPS or other squad based shooters, I think some of it has to do with match times. In any given gaming session FGC players have dozens of 1-3 minute matches while FPS players will have a few 10-20+ minute matches per session. FGC mindset is so fast from match to match, opponent to opponent, character match up to character match up. FGC player's minds have to be able to be completely scatter brained but always focused simultaneously. Whereas FPS players can really settle into the zone and have so much time to adjust tactics before a match is over by comparison.
@@BeenNoticing You should check out the RTS community. Very weird combination of solidarity and total meltdown.
6:17 fucking thank you. I hate it when people are like "The lack of combo execution makes the game bad" when combos in the first place are USUALLY the easiest part of the game. The actual hard parts/ skill heavy parts are learning neutral, learning game mechanics and when to use them and learning match ups. The complexity of input execution is such a false barrier to fighting game skill.
Its not about execution being hard, nothing is hard if you put a bit of time into it... however, the input system/style is actually the majority of the "gameplay" in any fighting game and it affects how you interact with others as well as execute combos. its as important as weapon feel in a shooter, literally make or break for each prospective buyer. If someone doesnt like a particular style its not a hot take to say they wont like the game or deem it to be bad.
I agree with LK look at like card games like magic the gathering that shit is complex and hard as fuck but the way you get people playing every friday is having fun events with lower stakes that are about going out and playing. You can invite more people into the game if there's more to do than just win ranked mode.