Awesome! Super appreciate your feedback! We have several other cool videos in the works, so hopefully you'll keep coming back. Please follow us, as it will greatly help us.
Thank you, Bill! Much appreciated. Clearly, we could have gone much deeper with the history, but we didn't want to bore everyone with minutiae, so we consider it a nice little crash course in railroad watches. We are glad you enjoyed!
Thank you, Pat! Clearly, we could have gone much deeper than we did, but I wanted to kind of provide a baseline history, because I feel it's an important part of both American history and Horology
One additional point-railroad employees were prohibited from setting the time on their watches. Only a designated watch inspector was permitted to set the time on a railroad employee’s watch.
Excellent review of the American railroad watches. The tragic part of the history of the American watch companies is that after WWII most either went caput or moved to Switzerland and later were bought up by Swiss companies. Hamilton, Elgin and Waltham railroad watches were modified to military navigational watches by adding a gear and bridge modification for center seconds. Hamilton also made excellent marine chronometers ie Model 21 and Model 22 (most often cased as a deck watch). You should add a Ball Official RailRoad Standard 999. Long fascinating history maybe you should consider making a video…..also Hamilton.
Burrell N. Whitmire was President of the Brotherhood of Locomotive Engineers from 1974-1976. Near as I can tell, Div. 327 moved from Missouri to Michigan at some point (?) and I don't know where they were in the mid-70's. I love a good mystery.
B.W. Raymond was NOT Elgin's only Railroad Grade watch in the 1860 to 1890 period. They had at least three concurrent railroad grade watches. Their 1885 "H.H. Taylor" (grade 79) key wind/key set (also adjusted for at least 3 positions, I don't know if 3 positions or 5 positions. The plate only says "Adjusted" on mine.) 15 jewel watch (3rd down from the top of the line B.W. Raymond) was also a railroad grade watch in 1885, andwas grandfathered in until 1899.(it was not temperature adjusted, and was a size 18S). I believe the time keeping standard until the 1899 BELL standards were adpted by the Feds andforced on ALL railroad companies operating trains in the US) went into effect, was +/-5 seconds per week. (1899 and later BELL standard for time keeping was +/-5 seconds in two weeks.) The Bell standards also specifued open face, size 16S, be a 17 OR a 21 jewel movement (15 jewel no longer qualified), be lever set, the dial be white, have black Arabic numerals, every minute actually numbered in black (5/10/15/ and so on minutes had to be red), the frequency of testing and maintenence, and the test methods, had to be adjusted to 5 positions, and be temperature adjusted, among other things. The turn of 20th century Railroad grade pocket watches were more accurate than the top Swiss makers mechanical watches produced today. Comparable to or better than today's quartz/digital watches, to be honest. (I heard new quartz watches can be +/- 15 seconds a week and be with-in specifications - including the quartz watches by Rolex, Omega, Citizen, and Seiko.)
I believe you mean Ball Standard after Webb C. Ball who ironically didn’t manufacture watch movements but used Hamilton, Waltham, Illinois, Elgin and other watch movements which met his standards. The present Ball Watch bought the rights to use the name.
If I said that the BW Raymond was their only railroad watch during that time, that was a slip, because I know better. I think the point I was trying to drive home is that the BW Raymond was their flagship during that period, and that all BWs are RR grade. Speaking of RR grade Elgins, I have a caliber 395 I just got. Unfortunately, it's not one of the ones marked "loaner" under the caliber/grade number, but still a great watch regardless
beautiful video my friend! i have my great grandfathers 2285 it’s a beautiful watch one of my favorites in the collection. lots of stuff i didn’t know! have you ever seen the white gold case? i have some photos of one and have heard there’s some around but it’s very scarce.
Wonderful video, sir; you explained a lot of things I have wondered about for some time. I would be very interested in a video that explains basic factory regulation (not COSC certification), and the issue of "drift", which describes how much a watch vacillates between gaining and losing time from day to day.
That is an excellent idea! In fact, I actually learned some new information regarding that just today while researching a very, very nice, well made vintage Wittnauer monocoque that is vacuum sealed. It runs, but needs serviced, as it is losing time. The bummer is - I figured out how to break the vacuum seal - BUT - I don't have ANY way to vacuum seal it after service...and this is a VERY important factor. So important, that the company that *actually* made the watches (they used ETA base calibers, btw) was strictly a chronometer company, and was in fact, the first company to pay the COSC to certify a CASED watch, and not just the movement itself, which was very costly. I'm afraid that I will probably need to make this video in 2 or 3 segments, as this basic subject (that you describe) is something completely normal, but there are a number of factors involved, and well, I have a bad habit of getting super nerdy. If you have ever caught one of my weekly streams on WhatNot, you'd already be aware of this 🤣
I believe that is a soft iron back cover, at least that's what I've heard they would use. I guess one might have expected rust, but I suppose a blackening could occur instead. Thank you very much!
@@secondhandhorology You did a great job cleaning it up. Probably as shiny as new. By the way, as for the movements after Elgin moved to Swiss ones, from what I’ve read, they were A. Schild 1604B movements, labeled as Elgin 873s. So much to know about all of this!
Great video. I believe a number of watch manufacturers used the term “chronometer” in the late fifties and early sixties. COSC was formed in 1973. I believe now only Swiss watches can be called chronometers, excluding all non-Swiss mechanical movements (even German).
I do have an Accutron with key-set movement that claims on the dial to be railroad approved. Were wristwatches from other manufacturers officially approved in the mid-sixties, or had the term lost its original meaning?
No sir, those watches were held to the same standard as the previous ones. Nothing really changed until the introduction of computer aided satellite GPS Timekeeping
The Elgin company was the only watch company of its day to construct an observatory, in 1910, dedicated to measuring time. This was of course long before atomic clocks. So the Elgin railroad watches' accuracy was verified by an observatory,
Awesome history man. Thank you.
Awesome! Super appreciate your feedback! We have several other cool videos in the works, so hopefully you'll keep coming back. Please follow us, as it will greatly help us.
Your presentation is full of interesting and relevant information! Thank you!
Thank you, Bill! Much appreciated. Clearly, we could have gone much deeper with the history, but we didn't want to bore everyone with minutiae, so we consider it a nice little crash course in railroad watches. We are glad you enjoyed!
Well done! Thanks!
Thank you, Pat! Clearly, we could have gone much deeper than we did, but I wanted to kind of provide a baseline history, because I feel it's an important part of both American history and Horology
One additional point-railroad employees were prohibited from setting the time on their watches. Only a designated watch inspector was permitted to set the time on a railroad employee’s watch.
Yes! This an excellent point, and I'm glad you mentioned this so that others can learn this. Thanks!
Excellent review of the American railroad watches. The tragic part of the history of the American watch companies is that after WWII most either went caput or moved to Switzerland and later were bought up by Swiss companies.
Hamilton, Elgin and Waltham railroad watches were modified to military navigational watches by adding a gear and bridge modification for center seconds.
Hamilton also made excellent marine chronometers ie Model 21 and Model 22 (most often cased as a deck watch).
You should add a Ball Official RailRoad Standard 999. Long fascinating history maybe you should consider making a video…..also Hamilton.
I have a Model 22 Hamilton in for service right now. Excellent idea, and I appreciate your feedback! Thanks for hanging out and watching 🙂
Burrell N. Whitmire was President of the Brotherhood of Locomotive Engineers from 1974-1976. Near as I can tell, Div. 327 moved from Missouri to Michigan at some point (?) and I don't know where they were in the mid-70's. I love a good mystery.
This is amazing info!! Thanks for sharing with us
Great video, thank you for sharing
I just found your channel and your videos are awesome!!!
Thank you, super appreciate it
B.W. Raymond was NOT Elgin's only Railroad Grade watch in the 1860 to 1890 period. They had at least three concurrent railroad grade watches.
Their 1885 "H.H. Taylor" (grade 79) key wind/key set (also adjusted for at least 3 positions, I don't know if 3 positions or 5 positions. The plate only says "Adjusted" on mine.) 15 jewel watch (3rd down from the top of the line B.W. Raymond) was also a railroad grade watch in 1885, andwas grandfathered in until 1899.(it was not temperature adjusted, and was a size 18S). I believe the time keeping standard until the 1899 BELL standards were adpted by the Feds andforced on ALL railroad companies operating trains in the US) went into effect, was +/-5 seconds per week. (1899 and later BELL standard for time keeping was +/-5 seconds in two weeks.)
The Bell standards also specifued open face, size 16S, be a 17 OR a 21 jewel movement (15 jewel no longer qualified), be lever set, the dial be white, have black Arabic numerals, every minute actually numbered in black (5/10/15/ and so on minutes had to be red), the frequency of testing and maintenence, and the test methods, had to be adjusted to 5 positions, and be temperature adjusted, among other things.
The turn of 20th century Railroad grade pocket watches were more accurate than the top Swiss makers mechanical watches produced today.
Comparable to or better than today's quartz/digital watches, to be honest.
(I heard new quartz watches can be +/- 15 seconds a week and be with-in specifications - including the quartz watches by Rolex, Omega, Citizen, and Seiko.)
I believe you mean Ball Standard after Webb C. Ball who ironically didn’t manufacture watch movements but used Hamilton, Waltham, Illinois, Elgin and other watch movements which met his standards.
The present Ball Watch bought the rights to use the name.
If I said that the BW Raymond was their only railroad watch during that time, that was a slip, because I know better. I think the point I was trying to drive home is that the BW Raymond was their flagship during that period, and that all BWs are RR grade.
Speaking of RR grade Elgins, I have a caliber 395 I just got. Unfortunately, it's not one of the ones marked "loaner" under the caliber/grade number, but still a great watch regardless
beautiful video my friend! i have my great grandfathers 2285 it’s a beautiful watch one of my favorites in the collection. lots of stuff i didn’t know!
have you ever seen the white gold case? i have some photos of one and have heard there’s some around but it’s very scarce.
Thank you so very much! Also, I think it's great that you value your grandfather's watch enough to learn the story behind it. Very, very cool
Wonderful video, sir; you explained a lot of things I have wondered about for some time. I would be very interested in a video that explains basic factory regulation (not COSC certification), and the issue of "drift", which describes how much a watch vacillates between gaining and losing time from day to day.
That is an excellent idea! In fact, I actually learned some new information regarding that just today while researching a very, very nice, well made vintage Wittnauer monocoque that is vacuum sealed. It runs, but needs serviced, as it is losing time.
The bummer is - I figured out how to break the vacuum seal - BUT - I don't have ANY way to vacuum seal it after service...and this is a VERY important factor. So important, that the company that *actually* made the watches (they used ETA base calibers, btw) was strictly a chronometer company, and was in fact, the first company to pay the COSC to certify a CASED watch, and not just the movement itself, which was very costly. I'm afraid that I will probably need to make this video in 2 or 3 segments, as this basic subject (that you describe) is something completely normal, but there are a number of factors involved, and well, I have a bad habit of getting super nerdy. If you have ever caught one of my weekly streams on WhatNot, you'd already be aware of this 🤣
Cool.
Thanks for watching!
I believe that is a soft iron back cover, at least that's what I've heard they would use. I guess one might have expected rust, but I suppose a blackening could occur instead. Thank you very much!
It very well could be an iron alloy of sorts. Definitely no rust, though. It Definitely was a bear to get cleaned up
@@secondhandhorology You did a great job cleaning it up. Probably as shiny as new. By the way, as for the movements after Elgin moved to Swiss ones, from what I’ve read, they were A. Schild 1604B movements, labeled as Elgin 873s. So much to know about all of this!
Just inherited my grandfathers railroad approved watch. He retired after 35yrs
It’s a 1964 Bulova Accutron
Great video. I believe a number of watch manufacturers used the term “chronometer” in the late fifties and early sixties. COSC was formed in 1973. I believe now only Swiss watches can be called chronometers, excluding all non-Swiss mechanical movements (even German).
I have a question about the chain on the Hamilton 992 B pocket watch. I have the same chain is it gold plated, filled or solid gold?
I do have an Accutron with key-set movement that claims on the dial to be railroad approved. Were wristwatches from other manufacturers officially approved in the mid-sixties, or had the term lost its original meaning?
No sir, those watches were held to the same standard as the previous ones. Nothing really changed until the introduction of computer aided satellite GPS Timekeeping
The Elgin company was the only watch company of its day to construct an observatory, in 1910, dedicated to measuring time. This was of course long before atomic clocks. So the Elgin railroad watches' accuracy was verified by an observatory,
Sir namaste
Thank you! To you as well!
So when the shit hits the fan no phones nothing this a good watch
@@victorrosas9082 you are correct