Right on! Manufactures should publish the usage model with every rv. I’ve watched several TH-camr’s that purchased a light weight rig, and used it full time and it fell apart. Unfortunately few salesman ask potential customers how they will use the rv and guide them to the proper rv.
We bought our travel trailer almost 10 years ago. We used to use it 4 - 6 times a year, usually on weekends. We would take it once a year on a “national” trip outside Texas. I know the vehicle has around 35,000 miles on it. Its showing some wear on it but the main systems are still functional. To me, it seems like RVers swap out their vehicles too often, based on some “keeping up with the Jones” mentality. Kind of like a wish for perpetual debt. Get what you want and keep it.
Another thing to consider is how long does the buyer expect to use that rv. When we bought ours a few years ago, we wanted to get about 8-10 years out of it. So we looked at brands that seemed to us to have a better build quality. We looked at many brands and some of their build quality was terrible. If we went with those lower quality build brands, I’d only expect to use the rv for 2-3 years at most before needing to get something else due to wear and tear.
My wife and I live full time in our 2020 alta 32ft travel trailer. Have had all liquid tanks leak. Had to replace regulator, recriminations just about every water line. Have electric plugs not working, door frames falling apart. Quality of this alta is very crappy. I should have kept my 30 year old citation. I should mention we live at the west coast of British Columbia Canada.
I feel like the way something like this could be realistically achieved is if a 3rd party got at least one manufacturer to rate their RVs and by doing so, set a new standard for the industry. I feel like Brinkley is an obvious candidate, since they already do the frame testing on an obstacle course. Several comments below highlight the difficulty for a RV manufacturer to willingly do this. It would involve surprising information that would likely violate old implicit expectations and they would only do it under duress because they had to, and probably with time to change their practices so what they first published was more acceptable.
After pondering this video for a while, I’m reminded of an old saying about engineering that states, “Engineering is designing a product to fail in three years and warranting it for two”. I fully agree that a usage rating and lifespan expectation should be assigned to products that cost tens of tens of thousands of dollars, especially if they are designed to “fail” in a short period of time unknown to the consumer. That still does not justify the major manufacturing problems users are experiencing right from day one, coupled with manufacturers and dealers reluctance to correct them. The expose of the RV industry through recent TH-cam documentation has confirmed this industry is broken as far as producing a quality product that is of a reasonably good value for consumers. It also has exposed an industry that does whatever it can to cover their duplicity. It doesn’t have to be that way.
Well said! While the conversation continues about the manufacturers, don't forget about companies like Lippert when talking about build quality and planned obsolescence ... not to mention their strangle hold on the (RV) parts market.
JD, I agree with your statement about the manufacturer should post expectations for use that incorporate which chassis, suspension and construction materials and technology used. This could be an added rating along with the new RVSTAR QUALITY RATING!
One of my customers has a 5th wheel and the frame is cracked at the neck. There is inches of flex when he puts on the pin box. Crazy and I would be furious! He got a good solid used 550 4x4 motorhome.
The problem is "what is average usage"? Everyone's habits and usage are different. I only drive 60-65 mph and only then if it is perfect weather. If it is wet then more like 55 if windy maybe even less, high traffic 60 etc. My BIL drives 80, a friend of mine is not real handy and has over filled his black tank on 3 occasions. I think if you start putting life expectancy on RVs you will have even more animosity and customers that decide it is too expensive. I personally think that the whole service model for RVs and service needs to be revamped and include more mobile techs. This will allow dealers to focus on selling and pre delivery and ensuring an RV is as good as it can be at the point of sale. Mfgs can also then start holding dealers accountable for the quality leaving the dealership.
I think that would open up a can of worms for the RV mfg telling people what to expect. I think they build them as cheap as possible and whatever happens to them that is just how it is. If you start putting miles and time limits on these you will probably not get the sales that you once did before telling anyone. Also I think people would be very surprised what they might be told. Maybe way under expectations?
If I could compare it to the tire business it would be easiest for me because it's what I know the most about. I don't think the r.v. manufacturers would ever want to do that. There's too many factors involved. A few being build quality and maintenance. I worked for Goodyear and they may say a tire is rated for 80,000 miles and I've seen some that exceed that if they're maintained properly. The average person doesn't rotate and balance, check alignment and suspension etc. as often as they should, or even check air pressure. Those people are not going to get 80,000 miles for sure. Also how are people driving, highway miles, city driving that type of thing all come into play as well. It seems to me it would almost be impossible for an r.v. manufacturer to guess what people should or would expect.
I think lite and ultra lite RVs are not made to use much, and people should be aware of this. Thanks for mentioning Northwood Manufacturing as one company built to last. We have owned one of their travel trailers for 16 years that we pulled across the US twice and used it a lot. Only problem we ever had was to once replace the water pump. Sold it to buy their Arctic Fox 295K which we customer ordered 6 years ago. We have pulled it over20,000 miles and live in it between 5 and 6 months a year. No problems. Their custom in-house built chassis makes a huge difference in strength and durability of the coach to take whatever the road or we dish out. That being said, we are always meticulous in care and servicing it. Good video.
in my experience, the more you use it, the longer it lasts, just like a car daily driven vs one that sits. Our RPod was rented out 100% during 2020-2021 during COVID and traveled coast to coast a dozen times and is in FAR better shape than a friend's that is parked unused in storage
Well, the longer normal wear items and general maintenance items will last. The house structure is something that's hard to determine when it's starting to fail. But, I don't necessarily disagree with you
Having manufacturers take a predictive position on the life of any RV is probably unrealistic or in other words, never happen. Simply providing a reasonable service solution for owners would do more for owner satisfaction than anything else. Quality of manufacture is decided at each company. Say what you will they need to improve quality and long term durability.
JD well thought out video , I agree with you there needs to be more from the Industry and this Grand Design frame problems has casted a light on ALL . I’m new to this life and on our second one already , last fall when we decided a 5th wheel was better for us than the trailer we started in and fact that i was retiring JAN 1 I walk into a dealers and said show me what will take 10K mile a yr for the next three yr and that how we started shopping. Then it was floor plan followed by Fit and Finish I for one do appreciate the energy you are putting forth to call out the industry for improvements it long over due.
I would love to see the RV industry offer the same warranty as the automotive industry, 3 years or 36,000 miles. I bet quality will improve considerably.
I traded in a 2015 travel trailer (my first rig) in 2018 after ordering a Mesa Ridge (Open Range) fifth wheel. I don't full time, but I have been fortunate to take some extended trips. This fiver (I'm sitting in it right now) has gone 40k+miles, from Indiana (I live in Indy) to Alaska and back in 2019, to the Albuquerque balloon fiesta and all the Utah NPs in 2021, then to Eastern Canada for 3 months last year (if you ever have the chance to go to Newfoundland, run!! It is my favorite place). I have a dealer that I've always trusted; however, they can be pretty expensive on some things. Last year, prior to heading to Montreal, I asked them to do spring maintenance on my rig. I have disk brakes and they told me I needed all the rotors replaced, etc. The cost quoted was going to be over what I paid MorRyde to install them! I've always asked them to do spring check ups on the AC, the roof, repack the bearings, etc. They have a maintenance package that you get all this done for around $1,000. So, I was not going to pay the exorbitant fee on the brake rotors without another opinion. I'm so lucky to live in Indiana and so took it up to MorRyde. Nothing wrong with the rotors though they did replace one pad. All for free. While I was there, Sergio (head of the work crew) asked me how often I do my bearings. I told him every spring by the dealer. He gave me a funny look then said, "Maybe you should just bring it up to us to do every spring." I didn't know they would do such a small job, but he was clearly unimpressed with what the dealer was doing. Now it's a new year and getting hot. I do bring the fiver to work in Southern Indiana periodically. Got here and discovered the main AC, which I hadn't had on yet as I hadn't cleaned the air filters until this trip, made a terrible rattle. I knew a mobile guy who helped me with a roof scrape a few years ago and he came out today and discovered my 2018 AC, which I thought was being serviced routinely by my dealer, had frozen up due to so much sawdust from the build and cottonwood and other large air particulates clogging the coil to the point that it had no air flow. He said it looks as though it's never been serviced. Luckily he was able to get it working, though he says the compressor has run hot and doesn't know how long it will last. Cost for the entire service (he also looked at my water pump which has died)? $175. I have zero doubt if I'd taken it to my dealer they would have said your coil is frozen beyond repair, and you need to replace the whole thing. And then charged me well over $1000. How can I now trust that the dealership is doing anything they say? And I'm someone who has felt that they've treated me very well over the years. I know the owners and much of the staff there personally. And I'm not going to stop using their service for certain issues that are well spelled out (like my non functional back jacks that died in Bonavista, Nfl.). But here's what I've learned: RVs require consistent, constant maintenance, especially if you use it frequently like I do. As a not very handy person, I don't have the time or the skill to do more than some basic stuff. There are people out there who you can find that do the right thing, like this mobile guy where I'm at now. But sometimes it takes a bit of a search and I really don't think you're ever going to find them working for a dealership who's agenda is $$$ and doing it as fast as possible while also waiting weeks for OEM parts and warranty approval. I do think many people never consider how they are really going to be using an RV in reality. They go to shows and get overwhelmed by the glitz and glam of having huge rigs that can sleep an army but are built so lightweight they are told their half ton will pull it. Or a couple who wants to travel but also wants to take most of the house with them. I've been involved in RVing since 2015; I even was the rally director/organizer for an owner's group rally in Shipshewana a few years ago. I don't know everything, but I feel like I've gained quite a bit of knowledge of the industry and what you can expect. I don't drink the Kool Aid that the new start up manufacturers build the greatest RV ever made; that's simply not how the industry works. But if you do a lot of research, have realistic expectations, and understand that systems are going to fail with time I think you can enjoy having an RV. I know I've done things in the years since I started RVing that I would never have done otherwise, and most importantly of all I've found fellow RVers through my travels who are now like family to me. I wish everyone could gain as much as I have and get out there and enjoy your lives. Thanks for letting me rant a bit. Andrea, a single middle aged woman who loves to travel in my fifth wheel. Never let anyone tell you that you can't do something as a solo traveler!
The "DREAM" of RV ownership to justify the purchase of the unit. The human mind is an amazing thing. The same "DREAM" pertains to the tow vehicle. Best option is to buy a 3-year-old unit and use it until it fails. Towing on rough roads is very hard on an RV. New tires every 5 years.
So far, in MY case, we rarely us our RV anymore. But its not time limiting, its more "What's gonna break this time?" We had an old 2005 Pilgrim travel trailer, we towed it everywhere and used it every week between Late Spring and late Fall. We owned it for 10 years and the only issue we had was a water pump. Now, with our 2017 GD 5th wheel, the hesitation is "Great let's go...but what is gonna break this time..more slide issues, more water leaks...etc.?" We want to go back to a travel trailer but a decent built one is SO expensive.
Yes, I absolutely think that manufacturers should provide information on what their units are capable of, the life expectancy of you will. A few companies are certifying some trailers for full time living but I wonder what all that entails. I know many are bulking up their three season capabilities and some actually test out those results before throwing an All Season sticker on. But some don’t. I’ve seen no testing results published on the expected life of a unit but there are so many variables. Maybe a simple Recommended for Part Time Usage vs Full Time Usage would be a start.
Yes its a throw away culture, I believe you should be able to pass your RV on to your Kids, so if you have it when there children should it not last 20 Years or longer, Josh the RVs of the past not including Airstream as they can last a long time, days are done new products like the Pause and off road trailers that can travel for years and are built to last thats the way it going, not the big corporations I went to my RV dealer he had out of 100 Trailers on lot, 3 Grand design and they used to have at least 50 percent Gran design. Its Brinkley now, people will pay for good quality now. the Fiberglass are for as you say guest house trailers. and not for travel. Thanks Josh good Video.
Old Work & Plays like enclosed car/cargo haulers are good for 100 times the miles of new towables bc some know how to build trailers, it's really not that complicated.
I will say I bought the exact same surveyor as you but mine is a 22 year model. As a regional truck driver I stay in my camper about 5 nights out of 7. I love the surveyor trailer but had the manufacturer stated a usage expectation on them I probably would have went with something a little more built for how much I use it.
We have around 30,000 miles on our 2018 Airstream, still looks great, heading to Carson, NV and Lake Tahoe this weekend for some golf. Exactly same mattress and pillows we have at home, hate hotels and we almost never camp in a campground, this weekend camping at the golf course.
Built the RV to the 5% expectations…. Yes it will cost more but for the people that won’t use it that often or to the extremes , they will have something that can be passed to the next generation to be used the same way the original user did
What's driving me crazy is now I'm leaning more towards Airstream for full-time living despite the high price. Today, I'm finding more build problems since Covid with the Airstream too!
None are safe. Anyone considering buying an RV should study and get very familiar with the construction and equipment used. There are even classes offered for RV owners on the functions and repairs.
I’ve never even heard of anyone owning more than one camper. You are the exception among exceptions!! 🤔 I’ve also never seen such a divide between manufactures and customers regarding expectations for design and quality.
Certainly. Let's establish a clear expiration date or measurable metric for the device's functionality. By doing so, we can commence assigning a precise monetary value to that metric. At a hypothetical valuation of $100,000, it would be reasonable to anticipate the device to remain fully operational for a minimum of two generations, assuming daily usage.
My cousin got a trailer about 5 years ago or so and they used the trailer 3-4 times to go camping. Then the next year it was used 1 time. Then no time and sold. Its hard to make choices on the weekends if you own a boat too. Do we use the camper or use the boat. Cant always do both.
Basically, we all agree that RVs aren't built to last. If they offered a # of nights, the cost per night would be prohibitive. They are selling a dream because reality won't sell.
We own a 2018 GD 297rsts which I have taken everywhere. I wonder what's going to break and on which camping trip. We came home to WI. From TN. In the dark once, parked it. Next trip outbound I realized it was crab walking behind me. The leaf spring hanger had broken off the frame (Chicago roads) that was the end of that trip. We took it out more than 10 times last year.
Having worked in Industrial fabrication I can see why so many 5th wheels are failing. You have a lot of stress put in a relatively small area towing a heavy weight going over terrible roads. There has to be a better design to distribute out the stress to the front of these trailers.
With the introduction of the Dexter Tow Assist ABS system, they now have a method to record true trailer mileage. The problem for a manufacturer is most people would expect an 36,000 mi warranty like a car. We all know theres a slim chance it will make it to 36k without claims. But based of average RV use, the warranty would time out long before miles expire.
RV OEMs can't provide life-cycle information because they themselves have no idea. Almost no RV manufacturer that I'm aware of, aside from a couple that are actually part of a company that also builds non-RV products, uses the modelling and other design tools needed to develop and manufacture quality products. Those CAD tools that you saw at Lippert? They're either totally absent at RV companies, or only used for dimensional drawings. RVs are still built as "craft" products and there will be little improvement until that changes.
I am also very curious about how much engineering RV producers actually do. But I do not buy the argument some make that Lippert is just building to spec. Their reputation is on the line too. They should not blindly build to bad specs.
I guess we would be considered "light" to mederate users? We bought our 24' keystone new in 2018. Averaged over 6 years we go out about 4-5 times a season with each round trip averaging about 500-600km. So we're about 15 thousand kms on the trailer since new. Its worth mentioning (in Canada) we get 5-6 mos camping season and parked/in storage for the remainder of the year where im sure the cold weather (freeze/thaw etc) takes its toll on any thinner plastic parts/fittings... Since we bought the trailer fixes include a small number of joints and couplers to keep the plumbing maintained and working, Replaced regulator, Thermostat, Plastic window clips, Toilet, Gears in awning stripped on our second outting and we never botherd to replace as we were outside our 1yr warranty, so just not worth it, I cant tell you the amount of trash (saw dust, screws, little off cuts of metal amd wood) that were never cleaned up after construction. Unfastened/lose screws holding in the fridge and heater had be either retightened or replaced. The build quality of the trailer is juat noticeably poor so when we're out camping we dont actually "live" in it like we would if we were in something that had a more substantial feel to it. Hard to explain but its almost like walking on egg shells so to speak as we're trying to avoid breaking or damaging something while using the trailer.
The frequency of use should not be a primary consideration when determining the value of a product. If a product is assigned a high price tag, such as tens of thousands of dollars, its durability and longevity should be the primary factors in assessing its worth. For instance, a moderately priced home of $100,000 may be used daily and can potentially last for generations. Similarly, a new truck worth $100,000 should ideally have a lifespan of at least a decade with regular daily use. Therefore, it is reasonable to expect a product's lifespan to be approximately one year for every $2,000 to $3,000 invested.
Interesting video. Thanks. Your idea seems logical, however I think if they were to put a usage rating on it, sales may decrease due to the customer doing the math and discussions of “They are asking us to spend this much and it’s only rated for this amount of use? No thank you.” The industry makes a lot of money off of newbies “buying the lifestyle” with intentions of use. Those already in the lifestyle like you, do it because you love it and it doesn’t matter the cost because you can justify the cost due to fun and memories. Potential newbies like me who are researching would appreciate this rating and in the end may shy me away from the expense. So while I would appreciate that added piece of information, I doubt the industry will do it.
I agree for the normal trailer or fifth wheel there may be two or three different classifications depending on the types of usage when classification could be commercial where the frame is super strong and very heavy and the other two could be middleweight or lightweight The other thing is if you had a mileage counter on the axles so that way the second owner could tell you approximate mileage that the trailer or fifth wheel has had The last thing could be having a black box inside the trailer giving maybe mileage may be hazards of some sort electronically through the dealer
Also if you have a three axle trailer maybe the manufacturers can independently extend the middle axle so it’s easier to back up the fifth wheel and not bind the frame as people are back in zigzag which puts undue pressure on the frame itself I think that’s most cause of frame failure thank you
I bought your rv because I'm a travel worker. More because I knew after school I would be pay check to pay check if I worked from a perm home job. I have taken 2 perm jobs where I didn't tell my employer I'm only here for a short time and sure enough started losing my savings due to the pay. I bought your Brookstone and hope I can get 8+ years out of it. I would be devastated if this thing tanked. My sister pays more than me in rent for an apartment than I do in lot rent and rv note. I just would be so unhappy that my money is going to something just to stay in that I don't own. As far as a house, unless it was falling apart (fixer upper) a house I would be happy with, the bank would laugh me out the building. I love being able to see different parts of the US. I only move 4x a year so I feel that's enough. I soon to make the trip from southern Mississippi to far west Washington so I'm very interested to see how Brooks does.
I’ve only been impressed by a few trailers. The LV, Airstream 23FB, and the Xplore 195. The rest seem cheap and fragile. If I won the lottery, I would buy an LV.
I really think there are way too many variables for a manufacturer say this model should last so and so many miles. Are they traveling 55-60 on smooth roads or 80 on the roughest highways. Tromping down rough gravel roads. Are they in low/high humidity. Pulling behind alder chevy 5500 that is just leaf sprung (ask how I know!🤣🤣🤣🤣). Is it being hauled light or overloaded….
There is a huge disconnect between the manufacturers and the public. The public want to spend as little as possible, ignore gvwr, and use RVs as full-time that aren't meant to be full-time. RV manufacturers have operated as they were in the wild wild west for years with little regulation, they never have had to face much regulation. If they were serious about full-timers they would offer more of the advanced suspension and pin boxes as standard or at least as options instead of people having to go to the aftermarket. And much of the buying public doesn't know what is out there on the aftermarket as far as advanced pin boxes and suspension systems to make their Investments last longer
If you do the math you need to take the RV trailer or 5th wheel out and spend at least 40 nights in it to justify the monthly payments. Let's say your monthly payments are $500 per month. You are paying $6,000 per year to keep that in your driveway for the year. If you consider that the average hotel room runs $150 per night (6000 / 150 = 40), then to justify your payments you need to spend 40 nights in the RV. Otherwise you would be better off spending your money on a hotel room when you travel. RV Manufacturers need to use something closer to those numbers when figuring out how much you can use an RV. Now granted there are other costs involved but that's just some rough estimates. We will fall short this year and won't be able to do that many nights in the RV. So, then you have to ask yourself is it worth the cost to pay for this thing every month to look good in the driveway. I'm sure you can justify it for a short time but over the long haul, if you aren't using it you shouldn't be paying that for it considering that you are constantly going to have to fix the thing. People who are buying these things don't look at that expense. The industry is banking on it. If people did look at an RV with this in mind they might not be buying one and paying the cost to keep one in their yard without using it. That's my take on the situation... But remember A&W tried to sell a 1/3 pound burger for less than McDonald's sold their 1/4 pounder and look where that got them. On that note, I'll stop. Thanks for this video, Pat
Lets build it to last as long as the warranty period* Also lets use words that imply durability. That's why they use pex water pipes and sealants that only last for a few years. That's why your slide topper fell apart. By making the entire line cheap coupled with a 60+ day in service average. Its cheaper to have a 10% repair rate (that can be whittled down by claiming abnormal usage, without defining what is normal usage) than the cost to make the entire RV better.
This all sounds like a load of BS. If a RV is quality built, and most importantly, with routine inspections and maintenance, it will stand up to whatever the majority of RVers use their units for. We have a 2007 Jayco Jayflight stick and tin unit and we have put on over 350,000 kms and average about 100 - 120 nights per year. In all this time and all these miles we have never had a major problem while travelling and the minor ones have all been nothing more then a minor inconvenience that I was able to fix on the road within a day or two. We still to this day never hd a leak and all the windows and doors work as they did on day one. This is the kind of quality and pride of product that the manufacturers need to get back to.
RV manufactures goal is can it make it from Elkhart to the dealership. That’s good enough for them.
Nah, it has to make it to a campground once too. Then they expect it'll either stay there, or stay at the dealer until the warranty expires.
I was a Quality Manager in the automotive industry for 30+ years. I’d love to discuss quality programs and quality improvements in the RV industry.
Your comment has all the RV Manufacturers yelling, " Sir, you can have a seat & be quiet now."
Sorry but yer not the man for the job.
Youd be like garlic and a wooden stake to companies like Forest River and Thor.
Right on! Manufactures should publish the usage model with every rv. I’ve watched several TH-camr’s that purchased a light weight rig, and used it full time and it fell apart. Unfortunately few salesman ask potential customers how they will use the rv and guide them to the proper rv.
We bought our travel trailer almost 10 years ago. We used to use it 4 - 6 times a year, usually on weekends. We would take it once a year on a “national” trip outside Texas.
I know the vehicle has around 35,000 miles on it. Its showing some wear on it but the main systems are still functional.
To me, it seems like RVers swap out their vehicles too often, based on some “keeping up with the Jones” mentality. Kind of like a wish for perpetual debt. Get what you want and keep it.
Another thing to consider is how long does the buyer expect to use that rv. When we bought ours a few years ago, we wanted to get about 8-10 years out of it. So we looked at brands that seemed to us to have a better build quality. We looked at many brands and some of their build quality was terrible. If we went with those lower quality build brands, I’d only expect to use the rv for 2-3 years at most before needing to get something else due to wear and tear.
My wife and I live full time in our 2020 alta 32ft travel trailer. Have had all liquid tanks leak. Had to replace regulator, recriminations just about every water line. Have electric plugs not working, door frames falling apart. Quality of this alta is very crappy. I should have kept my 30 year old citation. I should mention we live at the west coast of British Columbia Canada.
I feel like the way something like this could be realistically achieved is if a 3rd party got at least one manufacturer to rate their RVs and by doing so, set a new standard for the industry. I feel like Brinkley is an obvious candidate, since they already do the frame testing on an obstacle course. Several comments below highlight the difficulty for a RV manufacturer to willingly do this. It would involve surprising information that would likely violate old implicit expectations and they would only do it under duress because they had to, and probably with time to change their practices so what they first published was more acceptable.
After pondering this video for a while, I’m reminded of an old saying about engineering that states, “Engineering is designing a product to fail in three years and warranting it for two”. I fully agree that a usage rating and lifespan expectation should be assigned to products that cost tens of tens of thousands of dollars, especially if they are designed to “fail” in a short period of time unknown to the consumer. That still does not justify the major manufacturing problems users are experiencing right from day one, coupled with manufacturers and dealers reluctance to correct them. The expose of the RV industry through recent TH-cam documentation has confirmed this industry is broken as far as producing a quality product that is of a reasonably good value for consumers. It also has exposed an industry that does whatever it can to cover their duplicity. It doesn’t have to be that way.
Well said!
While the conversation continues about the manufacturers, don't forget about companies like Lippert when talking about build quality and planned obsolescence ... not to mention their strangle hold on the (RV) parts market.
The minute it leaves the factory 😂
And most RV resorts have a 10 year rule, excluding older units. The maximum life span is 10 years no matter how you use it.
JD, I agree with your statement about the manufacturer should post expectations for use that incorporate which chassis, suspension and construction materials and technology used. This could be an added rating along with the new RVSTAR QUALITY RATING!
One of my customers has a 5th wheel and the frame is cracked at the neck. There is inches of flex when he puts on the pin box. Crazy and I would be furious! He got a good solid used 550 4x4 motorhome.
The problem is "what is average usage"? Everyone's habits and usage are different. I only drive 60-65 mph and only then if it is perfect weather. If it is wet then more like 55 if windy maybe even less, high traffic 60 etc. My BIL drives 80, a friend of mine is not real handy and has over filled his black tank on 3 occasions. I think if you start putting life expectancy on RVs you will have even more animosity and customers that decide it is too expensive. I personally think that the whole service model for RVs and service needs to be revamped and include more mobile techs. This will allow dealers to focus on selling and pre delivery and ensuring an RV is as good as it can be at the point of sale. Mfgs can also then start holding dealers accountable for the quality leaving the dealership.
I think that would open up a can of worms for the RV mfg telling people what to expect. I think they build them as cheap as possible and whatever happens to them that is just how it is. If you start putting miles and time limits on these you will probably not get the sales that you once did before telling anyone. Also I think people would be very surprised what they might be told. Maybe way under expectations?
That's called lying to customers.
If I could compare it to the tire business it would be easiest for me because it's what I know the most about. I don't think the r.v. manufacturers would ever want to do that. There's too many factors involved. A few being build quality and maintenance. I worked for Goodyear and they may say a tire is rated for 80,000 miles and I've seen some that exceed that if they're maintained properly. The average person doesn't rotate and balance, check alignment and suspension etc. as often as they should, or even check air pressure. Those people are not going to get 80,000 miles for sure. Also how are people driving, highway miles, city driving that type of thing all come into play as well. It seems to me it would almost be impossible for an r.v. manufacturer to guess what people should or would expect.
@@davidaz6622 Happens all the time. You are hardly told the complete truth when buying big items especially RV's and boats.
I think lite and ultra lite RVs are not made to use much, and people should be aware of this. Thanks for mentioning Northwood Manufacturing as one company built to last. We have owned one of their travel trailers for 16 years that we pulled across the US twice and used it a lot. Only problem we ever had was to once replace the water pump. Sold it to buy their Arctic Fox 295K which we customer ordered 6 years ago. We have pulled it over20,000 miles and live in it between 5 and 6 months a year. No problems. Their custom in-house built chassis makes a huge difference in strength and durability of the coach to take whatever the road or we dish out. That being said, we are always meticulous in care and servicing it. Good video.
in my experience, the more you use it, the longer it lasts, just like a car daily driven vs one that sits. Our RPod was rented out 100% during 2020-2021 during COVID and traveled coast to coast a dozen times and is in FAR better shape than a friend's that is parked unused in storage
Well, the longer normal wear items and general maintenance items will last. The house structure is something that's hard to determine when it's starting to fail. But, I don't necessarily disagree with you
They will not tell us the true life number because the prices will have to go down. Some of the prices should come with land!
Some people have lost their minds. Financing longer than a 15 year mortgage on a house!
Having manufacturers take a predictive position on the life of any RV is probably unrealistic or in other words, never happen. Simply providing a reasonable service solution for owners would do more for owner satisfaction than anything else. Quality of manufacture is decided at each company. Say what you will they need to improve quality and long term durability.
JD well thought out video , I agree with you there needs to be more from the Industry and this Grand Design frame problems has casted a light on ALL .
I’m new to this life and on our second one already , last fall when we decided a 5th wheel was better for us than the trailer we started in and fact that i was retiring JAN 1
I walk into a dealers and said show me what will take 10K mile a yr for the next three yr and that how we started shopping. Then it was floor plan followed by Fit and Finish
I for one do appreciate the energy you are putting forth to call out the industry for improvements it long over due.
I would be willing to bet that the average is less than 10 usage days a year.
I would love to see the RV industry offer the same warranty as the automotive industry, 3 years or 36,000 miles. I bet quality will improve considerably.
I traded in a 2015 travel trailer (my first rig) in 2018 after ordering a Mesa Ridge (Open Range) fifth wheel. I don't full time, but I have been fortunate to take some extended trips. This fiver (I'm sitting in it right now) has gone 40k+miles, from Indiana (I live in Indy) to Alaska and back in 2019, to the Albuquerque balloon fiesta and all the Utah NPs in 2021, then to Eastern Canada for 3 months last year (if you ever have the chance to go to Newfoundland, run!! It is my favorite place). I have a dealer that I've always trusted; however, they can be pretty expensive on some things. Last year, prior to heading to Montreal, I asked them to do spring maintenance on my rig. I have disk brakes and they told me I needed all the rotors replaced, etc. The cost quoted was going to be over what I paid MorRyde to install them! I've always asked them to do spring check ups on the AC, the roof, repack the bearings, etc. They have a maintenance package that you get all this done for around $1,000.
So, I was not going to pay the exorbitant fee on the brake rotors without another opinion. I'm so lucky to live in Indiana and so took it up to MorRyde. Nothing wrong with the rotors though they did replace one pad. All for free. While I was there, Sergio (head of the work crew) asked me how often I do my bearings. I told him every spring by the dealer. He gave me a funny look then said, "Maybe you should just bring it up to us to do every spring." I didn't know they would do such a small job, but he was clearly unimpressed with what the dealer was doing.
Now it's a new year and getting hot. I do bring the fiver to work in Southern Indiana periodically. Got here and discovered the main AC, which I hadn't had on yet as I hadn't cleaned the air filters until this trip, made a terrible rattle. I knew a mobile guy who helped me with a roof scrape a few years ago and he came out today and discovered my 2018 AC, which I thought was being serviced routinely by my dealer, had frozen up due to so much sawdust from the build and cottonwood and other large air particulates clogging the coil to the point that it had no air flow. He said it looks as though it's never been serviced. Luckily he was able to get it working, though he says the compressor has run hot and doesn't know how long it will last. Cost for the entire service (he also looked at my water pump which has died)? $175. I have zero doubt if I'd taken it to my dealer they would have said your coil is frozen beyond repair, and you need to replace the whole thing. And then charged me well over $1000.
How can I now trust that the dealership is doing anything they say? And I'm someone who has felt that they've treated me very well over the years. I know the owners and much of the staff there personally. And I'm not going to stop using their service for certain issues that are well spelled out (like my non functional back jacks that died in Bonavista, Nfl.). But here's what I've learned: RVs require consistent, constant maintenance, especially if you use it frequently like I do. As a not very handy person, I don't have the time or the skill to do more than some basic stuff. There are people out there who you can find that do the right thing, like this mobile guy where I'm at now. But sometimes it takes a bit of a search and I really don't think you're ever going to find them working for a dealership who's agenda is $$$ and doing it as fast as possible while also waiting weeks for OEM parts and warranty approval.
I do think many people never consider how they are really going to be using an RV in reality. They go to shows and get overwhelmed by the glitz and glam of having huge rigs that can sleep an army but are built so lightweight they are told their half ton will pull it. Or a couple who wants to travel but also wants to take most of the house with them. I've been involved in RVing since 2015; I even was the rally director/organizer for an owner's group rally in Shipshewana a few years ago. I don't know everything, but I feel like I've gained quite a bit of knowledge of the industry and what you can expect. I don't drink the Kool Aid that the new start up manufacturers build the greatest RV ever made; that's simply not how the industry works. But if you do a lot of research, have realistic expectations, and understand that systems are going to fail with time I think you can enjoy having an RV. I know I've done things in the years since I started RVing that I would never have done otherwise, and most importantly of all I've found fellow RVers through my travels who are now like family to me. I wish everyone could gain as much as I have and get out there and enjoy your lives. Thanks for letting me rant a bit.
Andrea, a single middle aged woman who loves to travel in my fifth wheel. Never let anyone tell you that you can't do something as a solo traveler!
The "DREAM" of RV ownership to justify the purchase of the unit. The human mind is an amazing thing. The same "DREAM" pertains to the tow vehicle. Best option is to buy a 3-year-old unit and use it until it fails. Towing on rough roads is very hard on an RV. New tires every 5 years.
I love that little Surveyor! Bet it's a dream to tow & park. And really nice to stay in for a few days too!
So far, in MY case, we rarely us our RV anymore. But its not time limiting, its more "What's gonna break this time?" We had an old 2005 Pilgrim travel trailer, we towed it everywhere and used it every week between Late Spring and late Fall. We owned it for 10 years and the only issue we had was a water pump. Now, with our 2017 GD 5th wheel, the hesitation is "Great let's go...but what is gonna break this time..more slide issues, more water leaks...etc.?" We want to go back to a travel trailer but a decent built one is SO expensive.
Yes, I absolutely think that manufacturers should provide information on what their units are capable of, the life expectancy of you will. A few companies are certifying some trailers for full time living but I wonder what all that entails. I know many are bulking up their three season capabilities and some actually test out those results before throwing an All Season sticker on. But some don’t.
I’ve seen no testing results published on the expected life of a unit but there are so many variables. Maybe a simple Recommended for Part Time Usage vs Full Time Usage would be a start.
Yes its a throw away culture, I believe you should be able to pass your RV on to your Kids, so if you have it when there children should it not last 20 Years or longer, Josh the RVs of the past not including Airstream as they can last a long time, days are done new products like the Pause and off road trailers that can travel for years and are built to last thats the way it going, not the big corporations I went to my RV dealer he had out of 100 Trailers on lot, 3 Grand design and they used to have at least 50 percent Gran design. Its Brinkley now, people will pay for good quality now. the Fiberglass are for as you say guest house trailers. and not for travel.
Thanks Josh good Video.
Old Work & Plays like enclosed car/cargo haulers are good for 100 times the miles of new towables bc some know how to build trailers, it's really not that complicated.
I will say I bought the exact same surveyor as you but mine is a 22 year model. As a regional truck driver I stay in my camper about 5 nights out of 7. I love the surveyor trailer but had the manufacturer stated a usage expectation on them I probably would have went with something a little more built for how much I use it.
We have around 30,000 miles on our 2018 Airstream, still looks great, heading to Carson, NV and Lake Tahoe this weekend for some golf. Exactly same mattress and pillows we have at home, hate hotels and we almost never camp in a campground, this weekend camping at the golf course.
Brinkley's 5th Wheels keep a mileage record that can be accessed via a port, similar to an automotive OBDII port
Built the RV to the 5% expectations…. Yes it will cost more but for the people that won’t use it that often or to the extremes , they will have something that can be passed to the next generation to be used the same way the original user did
I think the reason people buy an Rv is to build memories
What's driving me crazy is now I'm leaning more towards Airstream for full-time living despite the high price. Today, I'm finding more build problems since Covid with the Airstream too!
None are safe. Anyone considering buying an RV should study and get very familiar with the construction and equipment used. There are even classes offered for RV owners on the functions and repairs.
@Itsa_Mea I'm a retired engineer I've been closely watching for the past 25 years.
Agree, expected use should be discussed. JD, how come we don't get any vids of you taking your RV's out?
3 times max a year for me, typically just 2. I don't do tents anymore (military ruined that for me), that's why I got 5th wheel.
I’ve never even heard of anyone owning more than one camper. You are the exception among exceptions!! 🤔 I’ve also never seen such a divide between manufactures and customers regarding expectations for design and quality.
You haven't watched enough of my videos to understand why I have 2 RVs.
Certainly. Let's establish a clear expiration date or measurable metric for the device's functionality. By doing so, we can commence assigning a precise monetary value to that metric. At a hypothetical valuation of $100,000, it would be reasonable to anticipate the device to remain fully operational for a minimum of two generations, assuming daily usage.
My cousin got a trailer about 5 years ago or so and they used the trailer 3-4 times to go camping. Then the next year it was used 1 time. Then no time and sold. Its hard to make choices on the weekends if you own a boat too. Do we use the camper or use the boat. Cant always do both.
Basically, we all agree that RVs aren't built to last. If they offered a # of nights, the cost per night would be prohibitive. They are selling a dream because reality won't sell.
Make a video weighing the half ton without the surveyor, then with surveyor without weight distribution, then with weight distribution.
We own a 2018 GD 297rsts which I have taken everywhere. I wonder what's going to break and on which camping trip. We came home to WI. From TN. In the dark once, parked it. Next trip outbound I realized it was crab walking behind me. The leaf spring hanger had broken off the frame (Chicago roads) that was the end of that trip. We took it out more than 10 times last year.
Having worked in Industrial fabrication I can see why so many 5th wheels are failing. You have a lot of stress put in a relatively small area towing a heavy weight going over terrible roads. There has to be a better design to distribute out the stress to the front of these trailers.
With the introduction of the Dexter Tow Assist ABS system, they now have a method to record true trailer mileage.
The problem for a manufacturer is most people would expect an 36,000 mi warranty like a car. We all know theres a slim chance it will make it to 36k without claims. But based of average RV use, the warranty would time out long before miles expire.
RV OEMs can't provide life-cycle information because they themselves have no idea. Almost no RV manufacturer that I'm aware of, aside from a couple that are actually part of a company that also builds non-RV products, uses the modelling and other design tools needed to develop and manufacture quality products. Those CAD tools that you saw at Lippert? They're either totally absent at RV companies, or only used for dimensional drawings. RVs are still built as "craft" products and there will be little improvement until that changes.
I am also very curious about how much engineering RV producers actually do. But I do not buy the argument some make that Lippert is just building to spec. Their reputation is on the line too. They should not blindly build to bad specs.
I guess we would be considered "light" to mederate users?
We bought our 24' keystone new in 2018.
Averaged over 6 years we go out about 4-5 times a season with each round trip averaging about 500-600km.
So we're about 15 thousand kms on the trailer since new.
Its worth mentioning (in Canada) we get 5-6 mos camping season and parked/in storage for the remainder of the year where im sure the cold weather (freeze/thaw etc) takes its toll on any thinner plastic parts/fittings...
Since we bought the trailer fixes include a small number of joints and couplers to keep the plumbing maintained and working,
Replaced regulator,
Thermostat,
Plastic window clips,
Toilet,
Gears in awning stripped on our second outting and we never botherd to replace as we were outside our 1yr warranty, so just not worth it,
I cant tell you the amount of trash (saw dust, screws, little off cuts of metal amd wood) that were never cleaned up after construction. Unfastened/lose screws holding in the fridge and heater had be either retightened or replaced.
The build quality of the trailer is juat noticeably poor so when we're out camping we dont actually "live" in it like we would if we were in something that had a more substantial feel to it.
Hard to explain but its almost like walking on egg shells so to speak as we're trying to avoid breaking or damaging something while using the trailer.
The frequency of use should not be a primary consideration when determining the value of a product. If a product is assigned a high price tag, such as tens of thousands of dollars, its durability and longevity should be the primary factors in assessing its worth. For instance, a moderately priced home of $100,000 may be used daily and can potentially last for generations. Similarly, a new truck worth $100,000 should ideally have a lifespan of at least a decade with regular daily use. Therefore, it is reasonable to expect a product's lifespan to be approximately one year for every $2,000 to $3,000 invested.
Interesting video. Thanks. Your idea seems logical, however I think if they were to put a usage rating on it, sales may decrease due to the customer doing the math and discussions of “They are asking us to spend this much and it’s only rated for this amount of use? No thank you.” The industry makes a lot of money off of newbies “buying the lifestyle” with intentions of use. Those already in the lifestyle like you, do it because you love it and it doesn’t matter the cost because you can justify the cost due to fun and memories. Potential newbies like me who are researching would appreciate this rating and in the end may shy me away from the expense. So while I would appreciate that added piece of information, I doubt the industry will do it.
I agree for the normal trailer or fifth wheel there may be two or three different classifications depending on the types of usage when classification could be commercial where the frame is super strong and very heavy and the other two could be middleweight or lightweight
The other thing is if you had a mileage counter on the axles so that way the second owner could tell you approximate mileage that the trailer or fifth wheel has had
The last thing could be having a black box inside the trailer giving maybe mileage may be hazards of some sort electronically through the dealer
Also if you have a three axle trailer maybe the manufacturers can independently extend the middle axle so it’s easier to back up the fifth wheel and not bind the frame as people are back in zigzag which puts undue pressure on the frame itself I think that’s most cause of frame failure thank you
I normally go out once a month, btw April-Oct, for 3-7 nights wi4h the odd trip in winter to Florida.
I bought your rv because I'm a travel worker. More because I knew after school I would be pay check to pay check if I worked from a perm home job. I have taken 2 perm jobs where I didn't tell my employer I'm only here for a short time and sure enough started losing my savings due to the pay. I bought your Brookstone and hope I can get 8+ years out of it. I would be devastated if this thing tanked. My sister pays more than me in rent for an apartment than I do in lot rent and rv note. I just would be so unhappy that my money is going to something just to stay in that I don't own. As far as a house, unless it was falling apart (fixer upper) a house I would be happy with, the bank would laugh me out the building. I love being able to see different parts of the US. I only move 4x a year so I feel that's enough. I soon to make the trip from southern Mississippi to far west Washington so I'm very interested to see how Brooks does.
Yes! Yes! Yes!
Trying to find someone who has the chill cube.. do you have a link? Etrailer doesn’t have it listed.
Hello, not available for retail sale yet. Should be available over Summer
Thanks for the reply but it’s always summer here in south Florida! Were already hitting 105+*
Very interesting, Thanks
Put odometers on them and do like you said.
You have a job AND TH-cam? No WAY I could do that. I'm not YT-ing until I start collecting my pension and going ft.
RVs built explicitly to be off-roadable probably will last longer than those that are not - at least if you keep them on the road.
I’ve only been impressed by a few trailers. The LV, Airstream 23FB, and the Xplore 195. The rest seem cheap and fragile. If I won the lottery, I would buy an LV.
I really think there are way too many variables for a manufacturer say this model should last so and so many miles. Are they traveling 55-60 on smooth roads or 80 on the roughest highways. Tromping down rough gravel roads. Are they in low/high humidity. Pulling behind alder chevy 5500 that is just leaf sprung (ask how I know!🤣🤣🤣🤣). Is it being hauled light or overloaded….
There is a huge disconnect between the manufacturers and the public. The public want to spend as little as possible, ignore gvwr, and use RVs as full-time that aren't meant to be full-time. RV manufacturers have operated as they were in the wild wild west for years with little regulation, they never have had to face much regulation. If they were serious about full-timers they would offer more of the advanced suspension and pin boxes as standard or at least as options instead of people having to go to the aftermarket. And much of the buying public doesn't know what is out there on the aftermarket as far as advanced pin boxes and suspension systems to make their Investments last longer
If you do the math you need to take the RV trailer or 5th wheel out and spend at least 40 nights in it to justify the monthly payments. Let's say your monthly payments are $500 per month. You are paying $6,000 per year to keep that in your driveway for the year. If you consider that the average hotel room runs $150 per night (6000 / 150 = 40), then to justify your payments you need to spend 40 nights in the RV. Otherwise you would be better off spending your money on a hotel room when you travel. RV Manufacturers need to use something closer to those numbers when figuring out how much you can use an RV. Now granted there are other costs involved but that's just some rough estimates. We will fall short this year and won't be able to do that many nights in the RV. So, then you have to ask yourself is it worth the cost to pay for this thing every month to look good in the driveway. I'm sure you can justify it for a short time but over the long haul, if you aren't using it you shouldn't be paying that for it considering that you are constantly going to have to fix the thing. People who are buying these things don't look at that expense. The industry is banking on it. If people did look at an RV with this in mind they might not be buying one and paying the cost to keep one in their yard without using it.
That's my take on the situation... But remember A&W tried to sell a 1/3 pound burger for less than McDonald's sold their 1/4 pounder and look where that got them.
On that note, I'll stop. Thanks for this video,
Pat
Lets build it to last as long as the warranty period*
Also lets use words that imply durability.
That's why they use pex water pipes and sealants that only last for a few years. That's why your slide topper fell apart. By making the entire line cheap coupled with a 60+ day in service average. Its cheaper to have a 10% repair rate (that can be whittled down by claiming abnormal usage, without defining what is normal usage) than the cost to make the entire RV better.
4 to 6 times a year is a complete waste of money!
It would be nice if the manufacturer did what you suggested.But if people knew how junky these things are,they would never be able to sell them.
This all sounds like a load of BS. If a RV is quality built, and most importantly, with routine inspections and maintenance, it will stand up to whatever the majority of RVers use their units for. We have a 2007 Jayco Jayflight stick and tin unit and we have put on over 350,000 kms and average about 100 - 120 nights per year. In all this time and all these miles we have never had a major problem while travelling and the minor ones have all been nothing more then a minor inconvenience that I was able to fix on the road within a day or two. We still to this day never hd a leak and all the windows and doors work as they did on day one. This is the kind of quality and pride of product that the manufacturers need to get back to.