Thank you ever so much for this! I share your thoughts on the Interludium - truly an extraordinary movement for less than two minutes. I slightly prefer Demidenko's recording on Hyperion to this one (think it retains a bit more forward momentum, although some finer details are lost due to the faster tempi), but obviously there are copyright issues. Begs the obvious question - are you going to do the second Piano Concerto at some point? Many thanks once more for the very early Christmas present!
I can see why you could prefer Demidenko's rendition, it's fast, fiery, and virtuosic. But this concerto is not a brilliant barn stompter, for me it has a much more strange and mysterious aura. The enigmatic form, the constantly moving key areas, the connection to poems about knights and mermaids, etc. But in Demidenko's playing, there is none of that, very little is subdued. I find Tozer just more evocative. Tozer's recording also has some great little touches, like when Theme B1 appears at 32:55. B1 often appears at places of high conflict, it was even introduced in G minor in the 1st Mvt while A1 and H were in G major. But now it's frolocking and for the first time exuberant. But on Demidenko's disc, this passage is sluggish and flat, and I am not swept along with a brilliant mood change. The climaxes in this concerto are also all quite short, so when Demidenkos goes all out but is forced to quiet down 5 seconds later because the music demands it, I as a listener feel a bit frustrated because I never get the indulgent, tidal wave crashing climax the pianist announces. But of course this is all very subjective. Sudbin also has a great interpretation of this concerto, you can find it on Spotify. As I've done No.1 and No. 3, I will do the 2nd one someday. But it will be a while because doing one of these always burns me out, haha.
@@alesa351 Tozer's recording is also my go-to - he brings a sensitivity and beauty of tone which I think Demidenko can't match, especially in the concerto's wonderfully lyrical and autumnal passages (which contain some of my favourite musical moments). Medtner's own recording is also fantastic, and I urge you to check it out if you haven't. Thanks so much for this wonderful video!
@@alesa351I get your take and I think the evocativeness argument for this recording really opened my ears to something new regarding the piece. However, there s always a big issue that, to me, is extremely annoying about this recording as well as the ones of the other two concerti: the absolute mess that the orchestral playing is at times! I mean, he only wrote three works with orchestra, and IMO his orchestration is brilliant, simple, to the point texture wise, but full of wonderful thematic details that get all muddied and stomped upon in these recordings. No matter how great and engaging the overall performance intension is (and Tozer’s playing, as always), this sloppiness always prevents me from from enjoying it to the fullest. I wonder what other people think about it and how can one get past it. Btw, Sudbin’s recording is like the total opposite of amazing clarity and you get the sense that all the musicians are enjoying the music together instead of just being forced to play this “unknown late romantic russian weird guy” and just winging it. Ok Im done ranting. Sorry if I sound too frustrated or impolite. Much love to all fellow Medtner enthusiasts
The greatest piano concerto ever written. The thematic intricacy of it is absolutely insane, nearly every measure a web of different motifs put together and developed in different ways, I’d go as far to say as that every single motif in the work was put together with another in nearly every combination possible. Medtner carries Bach’s torch when it comes to the undiluted genius construction of music. Everything is mathematically and intricately shaped, like a Greek temple or a gothic cathedral, yet that only adds to the emotional soul of the music, rather than takes away from it. The narrative behind the concerto runs deep within the work, and everything is shaped around it. To understand it better read about the poem Medtner based the first movement off of and then created his own continuation of it using the second and third movements.
I don’t normally comment on TH-cam, though I feel compelled to now. Thank you for spending what must have been a long and tiring time to analyse and colour-code this. The more I listen to works such as this one, the more I am convinced that Medtner will be treated with the same sort of esteem given to the established great-amongst-the-great, like Chopin and Beethoven, in years to come. It is not a matter of ‘if’, but ‘when’, and the efforts of people like yourself are bringing this change of perception about sooner.
This concert is - dare I say - perfect in any musical aspect I can think of, and very well may be, in my opinion, the most gorgeous and well written piano concerto there is. Also this video is amazing in analysing its clever motivic development
I have to say. I love this piece, but I don't feel like I understand it completely, I've heard 6 times this far, and every time I listen to it feels like it's the first time. It is a perplexing piece, but I can't get enough of it.
That was my impression of Medtner when I first heard his music. Despite not fully understanding everything I was hearing, I still felt compelled to keep listening. Why I felt like this I don't know - there are many other composers I've not understood that I've promptly stopped listening to and then forgotten about. Clearly, there's an enigmatic quality to his music that draws people in.
It is one to to try to understand something and another to feel the emotion of the piece. This piece you feel it in your heart, it is understood there.
Much like with Bortkewicz I was lucky to first catch a Medtner concerto on WMNR, and then turn to YT for his many other fine piano works. Especially with Tozer
@andrewpetersen5272 The thing that indicates how highly a piece is rated is the number of times it's performed. So when a piece is rarely performed, it's being underrated if it's a masterpiece such as this.
Thank you for taking the time to make this analysis, which is very useful. I intend to programme the "Night Wind" sonata in about three years' time, but apart from playing the tiny Idyll (Op. 7 No. 1) in 1980 I have never performed Medtner's music in public, so before settling down to serious work on studying the sonata I intend to listen to everything the composer wrote. I will return to your video soon, as the Third Concerto has never made such an impression on me as the previous two, but your annotations will help me to appreciate the compositional skill displayed in the work. What a pity that Geoffrey Tozer's fine series of the solo piano music stopped after eight CDs!
@@stephanjwilliams No, my previous comment was written early in 2020, and later that year I began to develop mild paralysis in the arms, hands and fingers due to problems with the spinal cord, so I had to stop playing (but of course all concerts were cancelled because of Covid anyway). It would be unrealistic of me to think of learning Night Wind now, but I'm working at getting my playing back into shape and am planning to give a solo recital in October. During my long break from concerts I've been listening avidly to Medtner, following the scores of all fourteen sonatas, and I don't understand why I didn't fully appreciate his genius decades ago; the craftmanship of his music is truly remarkable.
@@raymond.clarke I'm sorry to hear that. But it's good that you're back to playing. To be honest, I don't think most professionals would attempt the Night Wind, even in the absence of a physical impediment. I hope the recital goes well and is recorded! And yes, Medtner is a genius (in my opinion, one of the greatest if not the greatest piano composer since Beethoven). I'm preparing a recital for this coming Spring which will include Medtner's Sonata No. 2 in A-flat, the piece that made me fall in love with Medtner's music when I first discovered it last summer.
@@stephanjwilliams really hope he ends up performing night wind, it’s my favorite piano work of all time and I’d argue the greatest piano sonata ever written, I’ve learned it and am also planning to program it some time in the next few months
Thank you for the detailed information that gives me additional food for thought to understand Medtner's concert. It's amazing enough to hear it. even shocking because of its depth! The third piano concert was a bit strange to me, but it now touches my own deep cells in the body
I've always wondered whether the last few notes were Medtner's little tribute to Rachmaninov, considering the latter died in the same year as the concerto was finished, and was fond of ending his works with the same four-note motif.
The first time that I became acquainted with Medtner's works was 10 years ago. I bought two CDs featuring his piano concertos. The one which left the greatest impression upon me was the Third, with its ravishing and mysterious melodies, which elude description. Similar to Mussorgsky, he elucidates the truth through his music, with such a passion and fervour, that it stops the breath.
My opinion on this piano work, it is the most sublime melody. If you don't feel it, then you don't deserve to be called an artist musician, you are just noise
Medtner PC 2 & 3 are two of the best pieces ever written. Better than Rachmaninoff. Medtner is one of the most underrated composers in history. The ravishing harmonies, the astounding rhythms, the unique melodies never get old.
I totally agree. I would put Medtner's concerti up against Rachmaninoff's (and most others) any day. In fact, Rachmaninoff himself once told Medtner that he (Medtner) was the greatest composer of their time.
When I first listened to it somehow I got caught by the first melody. It didn’t even make sense, it’s so simple, there’s almost no melody at all in a way. But it’s quite a beautiful melody
Great work! Would you consider to do analyses of the Rachmaninoff concertos? Despite how popular they are, there's actually not a single video on TH-cam that properly highlights their structural genious, while Medtner gets lots of analysis but is not popular otherwise. Both deserve both kinds of attention!
@@sender1496 I disagree. His music is "easier to understand" because it is melodically and harmonically appealing, but structurally every bit as complex as Medtner's, hence my question.
@@SpaghettiToaster I don't understand how you think it's difficult structurally. Rachmaninoff uses regular structures such as the sonata form, etc. with super clear thematic material. Medtner on the other hand deviates massively from conventional forms and uses a lot of contrapuntal techniques, making it way harder to understand. In just this concerto, the first movement is some weird variational form with 4 different themes being developed, and one horn-motive that binds the whole thing together. Not to mention the weird length of the second movement, and the interconnections between different movements. With Rachmaninoff, you can literally just listen and understand it immediately because 1. it's super conventional 2. no highly contrapuntal techniques 3. very clear sections 4. you can use the tonality to navigate where you are
@@sender1496 Except none of those is actually true. His music is every bit as contrapuntal as Medtner's, his themes are themselves motivic and his sonata forms are rarely conventional or strict (and if they are, this does not preclude them from analysis because there's always a lot going on). Please have a look at an actual analysis (if you can find one) of concerto 3, either of the piano sonatas, symphony 2 and 3, the bells etc. etc. to see this.
@@SpaghettiToaster What you are saying is true, but it’s still WAY less than Medtner, in all regards. I have already analysed them. There is a reason why people who listen to Medtner describes it as “going right over their heads”.
Days of Medtner WILL COME. Scriabin left Chopin's heritage, but Medtner stayed there. (but little more chromatics) He is the one who fit to being called as 'Russian Chopin'. Medtner has revived later Chopin pieces'(such as Ballade 4, Polonaise Fantasie, Mazurkas) chromaticism and romanticism.
I'm convinced that Medtner's Piano Concerto 3 is one of the greatest piano works ever written, along with Rach 3. I'm not as familiar with Scriabin's Piano Concerto. I didn't think any piano concerto could take my favorite spot over Beethoven's 4th, until I heard Medtner 3.
@@SCRIABINISTtrust me when I say that Medtner 3 is the peak of emotion. It’s just not portrayed in the way Scriabin or Rach wouldn’t. The emotional narrative behind the work is so intricately woven into the “story” the concerto tells. The rabbit hole goes deep and I can go on and on about this but if you want to understand the concerto better look into the poem the first movement is based on and how Medtner continued it in his own direction, there’s more info on that on the wiki. Also listen to Medtner’s recording, which is A way better than Tozers obviously; and B tells the story Medtner intended properly
the theme at 24:19 is kind of reminscent of this moment from rachmaninoff piano sonata 2 th-cam.com/video/C_lOOYSzoBc/w-d-xo.htmlsi=OZMmO9aILAdUZfcg&t=2354
too much submersion in sound - piece whld b played w more delicacy so we can hear the filigree as in Chopin the notes goby in a smoooosh lamentably the I can play faster Argerich syndrome
![Nikolai Medtner - Piano Concerto No. 3, Op. 60 "Ballade" [with full score]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/APJz-RKS_8s/mqdefault.jpg)
Thank you ever so much for this! I share your thoughts on the Interludium - truly an extraordinary movement for less than two minutes. I slightly prefer Demidenko's recording on Hyperion to this one (think it retains a bit more forward momentum, although some finer details are lost due to the faster tempi), but obviously there are copyright issues. Begs the obvious question - are you going to do the second Piano Concerto at some point? Many thanks once more for the very early Christmas present!
I can see why you could prefer Demidenko's rendition, it's fast, fiery, and virtuosic. But this concerto is not a brilliant barn stompter, for me it has a much more strange and mysterious aura. The enigmatic form, the constantly moving key areas, the connection to poems about knights and mermaids, etc. But in Demidenko's playing, there is none of that, very little is subdued. I find Tozer just more evocative. Tozer's recording also has some great little touches, like when Theme B1 appears at 32:55. B1 often appears at places of high conflict, it was even introduced in G minor in the 1st Mvt while A1 and H were in G major. But now it's frolocking and for the first time exuberant. But on Demidenko's disc, this passage is sluggish and flat, and I am not swept along with a brilliant mood change.
The climaxes in this concerto are also all quite short, so when Demidenkos goes all out but is forced to quiet down 5 seconds later because the music demands it, I as a listener feel a bit frustrated because I never get the indulgent, tidal wave crashing climax the pianist announces. But of course this is all very subjective.
Sudbin also has a great interpretation of this concerto, you can find it on Spotify.
As I've done No.1 and No. 3, I will do the 2nd one someday. But it will be a while because doing one of these always burns me out, haha.
@@alesa351 Tozer's recording is also my go-to - he brings a sensitivity and beauty of tone which I think Demidenko can't match, especially in the concerto's wonderfully lyrical and autumnal passages (which contain some of my favourite musical moments). Medtner's own recording is also fantastic, and I urge you to check it out if you haven't. Thanks so much for this wonderful video!
@@alesa351I get your take and I think the evocativeness argument for this recording really opened my ears to something new regarding the piece. However, there s always a big issue that, to me, is extremely annoying about this recording as well as the ones of the other two concerti: the absolute mess that the orchestral playing is at times! I mean, he only wrote three works with orchestra, and IMO his orchestration is brilliant, simple, to the point texture wise, but full of wonderful thematic details that get all muddied and stomped upon in these recordings. No matter how great and engaging the overall performance intension is (and Tozer’s playing, as always), this sloppiness always prevents me from from enjoying it to the fullest. I wonder what other people think about it and how can one get past it.
Btw, Sudbin’s recording is like the total opposite of amazing clarity and you get the sense that all the musicians are enjoying the music together instead of just being forced to play this “unknown late romantic russian weird guy” and just winging it.
Ok Im done ranting. Sorry if I sound too frustrated or impolite. Much love to all fellow Medtner enthusiasts
24:19 - Hands one of Medtner's most beautiful lyrical melodies and one of the most romantic themes ever written.
24:19 Just putting this here for future reference.
The greatest piano concerto ever written. The thematic intricacy of it is absolutely insane, nearly every measure a web of different motifs put together and developed in different ways, I’d go as far to say as that every single motif in the work was put together with another in nearly every combination possible. Medtner carries Bach’s torch when it comes to the undiluted genius construction of music. Everything is mathematically and intricately shaped, like a Greek temple or a gothic cathedral, yet that only adds to the emotional soul of the music, rather than takes away from it. The narrative behind the concerto runs deep within the work, and everything is shaped around it. To understand it better read about the poem Medtner based the first movement off of and then created his own continuation of it using the second and third movements.
I don’t normally comment on TH-cam, though I feel compelled to now. Thank you for spending what must have been a long and tiring time to analyse and colour-code this. The more I listen to works such as this one, the more I am convinced that Medtner will be treated with the same sort of esteem given to the established great-amongst-the-great, like Chopin and Beethoven, in years to come. It is not a matter of ‘if’, but ‘when’, and the efforts of people like yourself are bringing this change of perception about sooner.
Highlights:
5:38
6:28
9:06
9:56
11:08
15:47 (Interlude)
20:30
24:19
27:18
29:51
33:45 (Coda)
35:42
The more and more I listen to this the more and more beauty is revealed.
33:46 my favorite part
Its just so pure!!
This concert is - dare I say - perfect in any musical aspect I can think of, and very well may be, in my opinion, the most gorgeous and well written piano concerto there is. Also this video is amazing in analysing its clever motivic development
I have to say. I love this piece, but I don't feel like I understand it completely, I've heard 6 times this far, and every time I listen to it feels like it's the first time. It is a perplexing piece, but I can't get enough of it.
That was my impression of Medtner when I first heard his music. Despite not fully understanding everything I was hearing, I still felt compelled to keep listening. Why I felt like this I don't know - there are many other composers I've not understood that I've promptly stopped listening to and then forgotten about. Clearly, there's an enigmatic quality to his music that draws people in.
Stop counting and let it work.
It is one to to try to understand something and another to feel the emotion of the piece. This piece you feel it in your heart, it is understood there.
Much like with Bortkewicz I was lucky to first catch a Medtner concerto on WMNR, and then turn to YT for his many other fine piano works. Especially with Tozer
a neglected and underrated masterpiece.
Not underrated, underperformed.
@andrewpetersen5272 The thing that indicates how highly a piece is rated is the number of times it's performed. So when a piece is rarely performed, it's being underrated if it's a masterpiece such as this.
6:10 from this part, man this is sooooo good I rlly fucking love Medter
GREAT ANALYSIS.
Thank you for taking the time to make this analysis, which is very useful. I intend to programme the "Night Wind" sonata in about three years' time, but apart from playing the tiny Idyll (Op. 7 No. 1) in 1980 I have never performed Medtner's music in public, so before settling down to serious work on studying the sonata I intend to listen to everything the composer wrote. I will return to your video soon, as the Third Concerto has never made such an impression on me as the previous two, but your annotations will help me to appreciate the compositional skill displayed in the work. What a pity that Geoffrey Tozer's fine series of the solo piano music stopped after eight CDs!
Have you programmed the Night Wind yet? I'd love to hear it.
@@stephanjwilliams No, my previous comment was written early in 2020, and later that year I began to develop mild paralysis in the arms, hands and fingers due to problems with the spinal cord, so I had to stop playing (but of course all concerts were cancelled because of Covid anyway). It would be unrealistic of me to think of learning Night Wind now, but I'm working at getting my playing back into shape and am planning to give a solo recital in October. During my long break from concerts I've been listening avidly to Medtner, following the scores of all fourteen sonatas, and I don't understand why I didn't fully appreciate his genius decades ago; the craftmanship of his music is truly remarkable.
@@raymond.clarke I'm sorry to hear that. But it's good that you're back to playing. To be honest, I don't think most professionals would attempt the Night Wind, even in the absence of a physical impediment. I hope the recital goes well and is recorded!
And yes, Medtner is a genius (in my opinion, one of the greatest if not the greatest piano composer since Beethoven). I'm preparing a recital for this coming Spring which will include Medtner's Sonata No. 2 in A-flat, the piece that made me fall in love with Medtner's music when I first discovered it last summer.
@@stephanjwilliams really hope he ends up performing night wind, it’s my favorite piano work of all time and I’d argue the greatest piano sonata ever written, I’ve learned it and am also planning to program it some time in the next few months
I can't get enough of the finale.
This is one of the sweetest intense melodies in musical history.
Thank you so much for doing this amazing work!!! And beautiful discription as well.
Merci pour cette vidéo ! C'est un travail formidable qui montre à quel point ce concerto est FANTASTIQUE !
Thank you for the detailed information that gives me additional food for thought to understand Medtner's concert. It's amazing enough to hear it. even shocking because of its depth! The third piano concert was a bit strange to me, but it now touches my own deep cells in the body
8:00 23:19
33:58 - 34:24 - Eargasm.
I've always wondered whether the last few notes were Medtner's little tribute to Rachmaninov, considering the latter died in the same year as the concerto was finished, and was fond of ending his works with the same four-note motif.
mkk mooikii ook
The first time that I became acquainted with Medtner's works was 10 years ago. I bought two CDs featuring his piano concertos. The one which left the greatest impression upon me was the Third, with its ravishing and mysterious melodies, which elude description. Similar to Mussorgsky, he elucidates the truth through his music, with such a passion and fervour, that it stops the breath.
My opinion on this piano work, it is the most sublime melody. If you don't feel it, then you don't deserve to be called an artist musician, you are just noise
Comments like yours are one of many reasons why this type of music isn’t as popular and well known
Bro what is this comment even😂
Medtner PC 2 & 3 are two of the best pieces ever written. Better than Rachmaninoff. Medtner is one of the most underrated composers in history. The ravishing harmonies, the astounding rhythms, the unique melodies never get old.
I totally agree. I would put Medtner's concerti up against Rachmaninoff's (and most others) any day. In fact, Rachmaninoff himself once told Medtner that he (Medtner) was the greatest composer of their time.
And what about PC 1?..
@@archibotgd9466 Absolute garbage!😆🤙
@@DynastieArtistiqueeven rach’s innovative piano concerto no.4 becomes literally a hip pop in front of medtner’s masterpiece😂
I cannot agree more
When I first listened to it somehow I got caught by the first melody. It didn’t even make sense, it’s so simple, there’s almost no melody at all in a way. But it’s quite a beautiful melody
Great work! Would you consider to do analyses of the Rachmaninoff concertos? Despite how popular they are, there's actually not a single video on TH-cam that properly highlights their structural genious, while Medtner gets lots of analysis but is not popular otherwise. Both deserve both kinds of attention!
Rachmaninoff is a lot, lot easier to understand. I doubt that an analysis would have such a big demand.
@@sender1496 I disagree. His music is "easier to understand" because it is melodically and harmonically appealing, but structurally every bit as complex as Medtner's, hence my question.
@@SpaghettiToaster I don't understand how you think it's difficult structurally. Rachmaninoff uses regular structures such as the sonata form, etc. with super clear thematic material. Medtner on the other hand deviates massively from conventional forms and uses a lot of contrapuntal techniques, making it way harder to understand. In just this concerto, the first movement is some weird variational form with 4 different themes being developed, and one horn-motive that binds the whole thing together. Not to mention the weird length of the second movement, and the interconnections between different movements. With Rachmaninoff, you can literally just listen and understand it immediately because 1. it's super conventional 2. no highly contrapuntal techniques 3. very clear sections 4. you can use the tonality to navigate where you are
@@sender1496 Except none of those is actually true. His music is every bit as contrapuntal as Medtner's, his themes are themselves motivic and his sonata forms are rarely conventional or strict (and if they are, this does not preclude them from analysis because there's always a lot going on). Please have a look at an actual analysis (if you can find one) of concerto 3, either of the piano sonatas, symphony 2 and 3, the bells etc. etc. to see this.
@@SpaghettiToaster What you are saying is true, but it’s still WAY less than Medtner, in all regards. I have already analysed them. There is a reason why people who listen to Medtner describes it as “going right over their heads”.
well done and thank you!
Days of Medtner WILL COME. Scriabin left Chopin's heritage, but Medtner stayed there. (but little more chromatics) He is the one who fit to being called as 'Russian Chopin'. Medtner has revived later Chopin pieces'(such as Ballade 4, Polonaise Fantasie, Mazurkas) chromaticism and romanticism.
I’m commenting just for the engagement because I limed it
One of the best pianoconcerts after Brahms. Ich should belong to the Standardrepertoire
The more I hear this concert, the more I have to be silent.
His secrets are not really accessible to the language.
@guidokorbach -- So true.....BRAVO from Acapulco!
thanx cld others give us more w
orthy of Sergei? andKorngold
Will you do the second concerto as well?
Medtner's PC 3 = Rach's PC 3 = Scriabin's PC
I'm convinced that Medtner's Piano Concerto 3 is one of the greatest piano works ever written, along with Rach 3. I'm not as familiar with Scriabin's Piano Concerto. I didn't think any piano concerto could take my favorite spot over Beethoven's 4th, until I heard Medtner 3.
@@stephanjwilliams Scriabin's Concerto isn't nearly as well constructed and orchestrated, but the emotional effect is definitely on par.
@@SCRIABINISTtrust me when I say that Medtner 3 is the peak of emotion. It’s just not portrayed in the way Scriabin or Rach wouldn’t. The emotional narrative behind the work is so intricately woven into the “story” the concerto tells. The rabbit hole goes deep and I can go on and on about this but if you want to understand the concerto better look into the poem the first movement is based on and how Medtner continued it in his own direction, there’s more info on that on the wiki. Also listen to Medtner’s recording, which is A way better than Tozers obviously; and B tells the story Medtner intended properly
the theme at 24:19 is kind of reminscent of this moment from rachmaninoff piano sonata 2 th-cam.com/video/C_lOOYSzoBc/w-d-xo.htmlsi=OZMmO9aILAdUZfcg&t=2354
Hi Alesa, is there any chance I can get in touch for a chat? I'm doing my PhD on Medtner and looking at his concerti just now!
Go Geoffrey! 🇦🇺🇦🇺🇦🇺
The beginning of the 3rd movement reminds me alot of Rachmaninoff's Musical Moment No.4
thank you
very cool
much better than beethoven 4
What a ridiculous statement.
@@andrewpetersen5272 Why exactly would you consider this a ridiculous statement?
I'm not much of a beethoven fan boy either so I agree with this statement.Love this as much as prok and rach both.
Totally different ways of composing music. If you try to compare, at least do it with a Romantical or later period piece...
But glad you enjoy this.
@@eingooglenutzer1474because it makes no sense to compare the two pieces
too much submersion in sound - piece whld b played w more delicacy so we can hear the filigree as in Chopin the notes goby in a smoooosh lamentably the I can play faster Argerich syndrome
Just as your comment makes no sense so does your opinion