7 Days to Die Alpha 20 - Please Stop This - A Plea To The Fun Pimps
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 17 ต.ค. 2024
- Today, I offer a simple plea to The Fun Pimps about 7 Days to Die! Alpha 20 is awesome, and I love 7 Days to Die! There is one reoccurring issue that happens over and over again. As such a huge fan of 7 Days to Die and the brand new A20 update, I felt obligated to point this out and ask TFP to please stop this!
7 Days to Die Alpha 20 - Please Stop This - A Plea To The Fun Pimps
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I must say i am also a huge fan and alpha 20 is amazing, but there are a few things that i personally don't like.
As examole harvesting crops. As long as you don't max out living of the land there is no reason to plant anything.
Also those pole hp decrease is annoying as hell, i personally never thought about building 4 together, but i made a lot of supports directly in my base out of them, but if the can't take a zombie hit anymore, i don't but on the risk that my base is overrun and destroyed in the same breath.
The underground base issue. I stopped playing for a long time after they changed that. Was nice to have a base I could hide in and do crafting /skill stuff while I was in the kitchen fixing a snack for the next few hours of game play. Or any thing like Bio breaks, Phone calls, fed ex at the door. They ended all that. Now hit ESC and let it sit Paused till you get back with zero hope of any progress while you was afk.
I couldn't agree more man!!! and if the fun pimps want to make some serious money and really expand their player base they need to finish porting over to console, that a such a big untapped market and even though PC players will never admit it, its way bigger than PC will ever be
I'm sorry stop crying it's their game they will make the game their way it's their game you want the game a certain way then make your game your way.
You are totally correct on everything in the video, which is why they have the nickname The UNfun Pimps by many due to their nerfing habits. Just a few more that you didn't mention: 1) using the flat barbed wire to slow zombies, 2) Making a base with water in it to slow them, 3) Making a base in water because they couldn't swim, 4) Doing a base in what they would call "the right way" and surviving, so they add demolishers that can destroy 5 blocks in all directions, 5) fall damage bases or pit bases, 6) hatch elevators (you can still do it, but it's a pain to build and use now, 7) using hay bails to negate fall damage completely
My biggest problem with the changing to the ai pathing is now everyone is basically pigeonholed into making the same type of bases. Used to be there were so many types of vases that would work because the zeds would randomly attack. Now they all focus on that 1 weakest spot to get to you. I didn't know zombies were structural engineers lol
Seems like a ton of issues with zombie AI would be fixed by just randomizing behavior. Some are ‘smart’ and will do the engineering degree pathing, others are ‘dumb’ and will just flail away at anything and everything.
Horde bases that use pathing to their advantage will still be super effective vs ‘smart’ zombies but you’ll have to deal with parts being badly damaged by ‘dumb’ zombies, helping to maintain the challenge level
Smart zombies are scary to the unprepared, but dumb zombies are scary to the well prepared. We need a mix of both! Maybe dumb zombies can spawn when the smart ones dont reach the players on horde night
Random behavior would be cool
I like AI updates, pathing changes etc. I think this suggestion would honestly be the best one implemented, have your smart ones and then your unpredictable ones. Changing AI behavior to force you to come up with a different way of doing things helps keep things a bit newer. The game has been in "development" for a long time sure, but it feels like a new game each update, keeps it fresh I think.
There is a little bit of that. I have noticed especially with A20, some zombies occasionally stop and beat on walls for a short while, but then they go back to pathing. That makes sense to me. It seems like the best yet. Smart pathing gives the player motivation to build more interesting elaborate bases that force zombies into a path rather than just a thicker and thicker bunker.
Not sure how intentional that is, but b238 seems to bring some of this. I built a tower / corridor base and half the zombies are now just banging on my walls instead of using the corridor.
Fun Pimps: "You can play the game the way you want to." Also Fun Pimps: "You can't play it that way. It's not what we want and therefore it's wrong."
Oh, and console players can continue to get fucked while we crusade once more against the horror of badwrongfun.
@@vsgfilmgroup it's a problem for a lot of developers.
@@LastnameIchose At least THIS is a problem they could address. But they seem to choose not to.
@@vsgfilmgroup absolutely. Developers forget that this is a business. It's not about what they want from the product, it's what the customer wants from the product.
@@LastnameIchose it may be a business, but games are art. They have a vision for it and that’s what it should be.
You cannot complain about zombies digging down to you when you already accepted that they can destroy steel walls with their bare hands.
No matter what the Pimps do, those who want to exploit the game's mechanics will always find a way.
This isn't an MMO. Who cares if some people nerdpole, for example? Don't waste time trying to prevent them. LEAVE THEM TO IT.
That's what separates a good game from a great game: PLAYER CHOICE.
What's a nerdpole
@@MriRiolu Stacking blocks on top of each other while jumping on them to get to high points faster.
"Nerdpoling" straight to the roof to get the main loot instead of going through the buildings.
@@Melsharpe95 Oh I see, thanks
Well said
@@Melsharpe95 - I usually use ladders, they're so easy to make, just get a lot of wood.😊 But I see some Tubers don't like to carry wood but you have to have it to even make straw blocks and upgrade them to wood blocks.😄
I like that zombies can dig, but their digging speed should be nerfed. Augur hands is ridiculous! There is a mod to disable digging, and another that lowers their dig speed.
A mod to turn off the digging would be nice, I need to go find that.
The player can't dig with it's hands that fast, the zombies shouldn't be able to either.
@@hugehappygrin a decaying corpse shouldn't have the strength or speed to do a lot of things. That's why I lower their block damage as low as it will go.
@@SonOfTheDawn515 you can get a mod that lowers it to 10% block damage as well
Without mods, in the world settings you can change zombie block damage during regular days and also during a horde night but it would be great to see more options in the future such as a way to influence the actual pathing AI. Like if the ability for zombies to dig through the terrain was a separate option while still maintaining the damage they do to "man made structures" on the surface.
There's a concept in Dungeons and Dragons where a lot of new DMs will, "Play against the players" so to speak. The point of the DM is to provide a fun environment for the players to enjoy- not to get mad, say no, and then try to punish the party for attempting to derail their campaign (IE, making you fall into a pit of magma and roll to lose items because something you attempted was going to skip a portion of the campaign that the DM worked very hard on, behind the scenes. As a player in a campaign, you often don't know *when* and *where* a DM spent a ton of time).
I think some of the problems with some of the guys at The Fun Pimps is that they have that new DM mentality. There was an A19 or A20 vid doc they released where one of them seemed openly frustrated that players were nerd poling and jumping right to the treasure rooms of POIs, and that's when they decided to move a lot of treasure rooms to deep inside of POIs, instead, but were still getting frustrated because players were, again, finding the fastest route to the treasure rooms and dodging a lot of their traps and "jump scares" along the way. Some of the changes they implemented were blatantly *against* the player, like giving you shotgun and SMG turrets, going so far as to call them the "best base defense" in the Advanced Engineering skill, but then also introducing Demolishers who, when shot by a turret, hit by a blade trap, or smacked in the chest by another zombie, would explode and destroy giant portions of your base. A "best base defense" that actively hurt you rather than helped is extremely problematic, imo, and their changes to make blade traps and turrets not trigger Demos in A20 is one of the best changes they've made in a long time.
Whatever TFP does, the players will adapt, I mean, they were basically following one of JaWoodle's playthroughs and spitting out balance patches in unstable in direct response to things he was doing, even though the vast majority of players weren't doing those things.
I mean its simple, if your players don't feel rewarded, they won't play or interact with that part of the game. Which in the case of pois, you don't get shit outside of the major treasure room. WHAT DO THEY EXPECT? IF Every trash pile or other container could have some badass loot you BET the players would be taking the time to LOOT EVERYTHING. It has never been this way though.
In the current incarnations, yes - older D&D was definitely not that way and was absolutely DM vs Player. That same attitude is still expressed by those who feel the newer games are "Care Bear" type games or "lead the player by the hand." Go back and read some of the comments when games like "Legend of Grimrock" came out and the comparison between it and things like Skyrim; the same insulting attitudes were evident in those who put down and slammed anyone who didn't like the fact that you, literally, had NOTHING to work with and would die over....and over....and over...and over....simply because you didn't pick up a rock 10 rooms back to press the switch to open the door to escape the boulder. They ranted about how games now were too "easy" and how people needed to "stop crying" instead of realizing that not everyone has unlimited time or desire to play a game like that.
Preach, my draconic friend, preach! It's exactly like that and I've almost written very similar comment (just worse). Good DM would play of that creative part of the player base and support their crazy ideas in some constructive way that would lead to MORE FUN!
They aren’t fighting players, they just want horde night to be difficult and a challenge. These bases kind-of ruin the game for anyone involved - like a cheat code.
personally, i don't really LIKE the dungeion style POI'S, because i go through and loot EVERYTHING anyways, except maybe the stuff that has to be broken down like couches,tvs, etc., unless i need the material. the only loot bag/box/purse i miss is the one i don't see. they should make that an option, cause to be honest i miss the A16 style of looting where you just went through the building breaking through doors like criminals would "Normally" do when raiding buildings. they're not gonna crawl up to the roof just because it's the first open hole they see(assuming storm damage or some other type of damage that leaves a hole 😉). stop trying to screw the regular players because of the griefers.
The only player behaviors they need to "fix" are exploits that significantly impact fairness in multi-player PVP. In that scenario, one player's actions can unfairly impact the experience for other players. If the only consequence to an avoidable exploit is that the game is "too easy", well, let them play it too easy if they like. If I can go god mode and take no damage while being hit by an entire horde all night, why can't I have a base that a brainless reanimated corpse can't understand?
Agreed. As long as the "exploit" doesn't negatively impact other players, I don't understand the obsession.
that's the thing though, players who build elaborate bases with turrets and traps that eat thousands of rounds and never funnel zombies or exploit their AI are ridiculed the most as their set ups are always "inefficient" and "irrelevant." Then you have those that say you MUST play with the exploits because it is a "tower defense game" and is the incorrect way to play.
@@anarchyorslavery1616 Who cares what others say? You aren't gonna please everyone, and you don't need to.
Play the way YOU like to play. If you're playing multi player and your co-players make fun of your play style, play with someone else.
If there is a way to play the game that makes it easier than intended, my own experience is diminished. Either I utilize the unsatisfying exploit, or I unsatisfyingly avoid the most efficient way to play. Either way, I enjoy it less. If people don't like to face the challenge of horde night, they can turn it off in the settings.
@@SavensWorld The obsession comes from the vocal hardcore players who want the game played THEIR way or NO way. Many times, it's that simple.
When it comes down to the realism of the situation and environment of 7 days to die, it is an apocalypse, so people would find the most effective way to survive and complete tasks. Part of a replayability of a game stems from the vast amounts of ways to play, which they're limiting by doing these things. They should encourage not having a meta, which would stop people from just being like "what best way to do thing?".
All I really want is for zombies to stop teleport-hitting you and for the lag to be fixed.
Of course there are a lot of other things they could fix but fixing these two would solve for most people lol.
Yes! Please fix the Go-Go-Gadget arms zombies!
There is a mod that fixed this in a19, not sure if it's been updated for 20 yet.. it's called Reduce Zombie Hand Reaches. It came very useful on my server where we have EU, NA, and OCE alike to balance out the lag hits.
@@SavensWorld My GF and I were just talking about this today while playing A20. We really hoped they would fix the seemingly random zombie hits that seem to ignore the usual hit stun. Wont stop us from putting a few hundred hours into this update like the last one though. I'm still in awe of the changes of the game because I was already happy with it in 19.
I'm not holding my breath. It has been like that since Alpha 1....
the telescoping hits are directly tied to the attack animation. even if you were somehow able to move to the edge of the map, the attack will still hit you. It has been this way since the beginning of this game.
Nail firmly hit on head. They need to focus on the important stuff. Using the "yeah but it's early access" excuse isn't really valid after 9 years...
I love this game but it'll end up dying on it's backside if they don't pull their fingers out.
The game definitely can't hide behind early access anymore. Calling them "alpha" builds after so long is just insulting. The game will unfortunately die in early access. The devs use the excuse of it being early access as a catch-all for any criticism.
Some of these I can fully understand by them. The poles should have less health then full blocks. The walk path is kinda dumb and same with the zombies being able to dig down. If they can dig then it should take them forever. No way they can hit Iron deposits with their bare hands and not take any damage.
Thank you Saven! This video conveys my sentiments exactly. These changes have been a frustration to me from the beginning, making me feel like I'm playing not against zombies, but TFP themselves. It's as if our survival antagonized TFP, but survival is fun! I am a 7dtd lifer but I miss many of the features that have been removed from the game. TFP have always been good about listening to their fans, I hope this message gets through to them.
They may be listening to the wrong fans atm.
@@LastnameIchose Fun pimps? more like the fun police. 😏
@@LastnameIchose Agreed... the game desperately needs late game threats... such as randomly generated zombie bosses or other late game threats. Why people are not asking for improved late game is baffling.
I think you are the wrong fans.. challenge should be maintained. cry baby whining.
@@aetherwizard3218 The game needs late game challenges... the late game feels so empty
I was just going on a rant last night on this exact subject. When rules get changed to stop a minority of people from doing something trivial and it affects everyone it makes me want to stop playing
It is just a silly and petty thing for TFP to do
@@SavensWorld not to mention that by the time this game finally gets finished, everyone's already going to have the damn game and they won't have anything to advertise for anymore. "We're out of alpha! it's a full game! Spend your money on this so we can pay our people!" "Well Joel, we already GAVE you our money 10 years ago!"
@@jackclark1994 Yea, who wants to play with MODs on their game. Look how bad Skyrim is...
One of the coolest things this game had going for it was the ability to rebuild and reinforce already existing buildings. It’s the thing that convinced me to play it in the first place. Now you basically have to build a whole new base out in the middle of nowhere. Massively sucked the fun out of it for me.
Honestly you do have a point. I really liked my underground base, especially the one I made in an old bunker but then it started to be really dangerous to be under the zombies instead of above...
I also think running from the horde should *always* be an option. When they buffed the birds to harass you during a horde, I was extremely disappointed.
had a BM today and was pwned by vultures bruh, very op
@@SaintDude. you too? I was swarmed by them last horde night i did, and literally got every critical hit penalty and died.
Decided to turn blood moons off after that, for a titular mechanic, theyre just absolute shit.
Feel like, as Savems said, devs should go "Hm kind of interesting way to play but not how we indented that's neat" instead of "GRRR Player NO KILL HORDE = BAD! FIX NOW"
I kinda like that using a vehicle to get away from a horde is dangerous. But it's TOO dangerous. I'd love to see it be "an option with some risk".
@@kathrynck I agree that would be a better way to handle most of these situations. Instead of making literally (or damn near) impossible make it available to the players as something they can choose to do.
I agree at this point play the way you want to or what ever makes the game fun that's what's cool about the game . We will always find away to beat the zombies
If you don't like dealing with horde nights, then turn them off in the settings. If they're on, then you have to deal with them.
@@Arkalius80 I like building if you don't like block damage don't use that block
@@Arkalius80 "i like attacking, if you dont like attacking then dont use weapons"
I totally hate the digging change, it stopped underground bases entirely.
Nah just dig down to bedrock and place traps and concrete at ground level as well
Wait, what?! My buddy and I have put three game weeks into an underground base/bunker under a mountain! Fack!
I don't mind digging. I do mind that earth blocks don't block sound, and they can hear you 50 ft below. If that were more realistic, then shallow rooms, first floors, and spaces with zombies above would still be scary as they could dig if they sensed you. It's the x-ray vision and super senses that's the problem
I like to think we (players) are the true game testers, helping the devs make a final game. We bring to light glitches, bugs, and exploits to be patched. If you buy a game before it's final release, this is what you should expect honestly. I've had fun in all the versions, and I truly believe they're trying to make the best version. They're slowly but surely getting closer to their best and final version thanks to us-the players.
However I completely understand how frustrating all these changes must be to a content creator, especially one like yourself that basically showcases all these unique aspects of the game that frequently change in coming versions. I respect your opinion completely, and enjoy your videos. But there's my 2¢
I appreciate your feedback.
Nerfing fall damage into oblivion was just really annoying to me cause a fall from surface to bedrock is gonna shoot femurs through their skull
yeah and i think that's how it should be. they add stuff and we test it for them, helping them to polish the game
That's exactly what an alpha is haha we've already bought the game so to say we are anything but play testers is crazy.
Im 2700 hours (by Steam) into 7DTD , ive been playing the game since Alpha 8.
I agree 100%
I want Bandits , I want some story , i dont care if you can tunnel to the bottom, or nerd pole up to stop hordes , i dont care at all what people come up with. Thats much of the fun , doing random shit and seeing what works.
As someone who started playing around A19 heavily, I didn't think the pathing was "broken" at all. I think it reflected stupid zombie nature.
If you stood at the end of an area, and zombies saw you, they'd mindlessly shamble to you. Tripping, walking into and over things.
I didn't think it was broken, I thought it was a feature.
I agree. Zombies are supposed to be braindead, after all.
@@labintatlo13 Stupid can be a weapon in and of itself when wielded by masses.
It's not about the smart or dumb, it's about a change made to "fix" an exploit that some would use. Sure them coming towards me is sensible, but they often can's see me but because the game tells them where I am; they still come towards where ever I am.
Yeah i would prefer stupid zombie AI that walk straight for you and walk into things or fall into pits with spikes. A random AI would also be cool, that some zombies would keep some sort of intellect and actually see some traps like pits and spikes and take a safer path to you.
And what former human can flail at concrete with bare habs and have any damage other than to them. My cleverly designed base that used electric fences, darts, and a combination of molotovs and 12 9mm guns did the job fairly and honestly. Needed 250-300 steel to repair but did the job on max settings. A20 comes out and have to start from scratch? Are they taking the piss out of the time i spent (1400 game hrs)
Please tell me I don't have to start this game from the beginning with A20 "Update"
Reducing pole, halfblocks etc hitpoints is actually a good move. It makes sense.
New AI pathing is also way better than it used to be.
What i dont like is removing stuff like drying of concrete.
I agree with all of that. The wet concrete created tension on horde night if you weren't sure there was enough time for it to dry. The problem maybe they couldn't solve was it only drying when you were near it.
@@MrWizzleTeets lol I use to ruun around with torches and campfires to see if that would make it dry faster before horde night
@@cheesyman10 I used the hairdryer in Zoe's Salon.
imagine if more dev time went towards more weapons, enemies, massive skill tree rework, etc.
Or even just optimization.....
Then the game would be boring as you sit in your AFK horde base every night building all those cool weapons you don't need since the zombies aren't actually a threat.
@Bluescore De'La'vie And no one is forcing you to endure horde nights, since you can turn them off in the settings if that's what you prefer.
A game that has exploits is less fulfilling to play, even if I avoid using them. It means that I'm unnecessarily burdening myself by playing less efficiently than possible, which diminishes the enjoyment of it.
@@Arkalius80 Some like like kill themselves, others like spending that time on base investment. What's so hard to understand here?
@@Arkalius80 Your arguments are illogical. If I say I'm frustrated because they've changed horde night, saying well turn it off then isn't a response that deals with what I've said.
Similarly saying you're unable to ignore an exploit once you're aware of it and that it ruins a game sounds like a problem on your part
The digging underground thing really irritated me. I liked being able to be safe underground. They should just allow us to check a box in the options to turn that off or not.
Agreed! Not sure why they care so much if people figure out bases that keep them safe when they give players the option of turning zombies off all together, or slow them down or reduce numbers etc. Seems odd for them to be okay with one but not the other. It's annoying.
I guess I can see both sides. The players will always find a way to exploit the game, but as a player, I do like when they react and make changes, because ultimately it will make for a better game, even if it only makes the exploit not as easy to achieve.
I'm all for bug fixes, balancing reworks, and updates. My issue is with changing game mechanics just to stop players from playing the game in a way TFP frown upon.
@@SavensWorld Or the fact that any time you find a way to make the game work for you, it's automatically "an exploit," or "cheese." Fine, then, all you l33t, badass players, go out and stand toe to toe with a grizzly bear with nothing but a club. I'll be interested to see how it works for you in the few seconds before you die horribly. It's the same elitist attitude that exists in any game where people find ways to play and enjoy the game that the hardcore crowd don't agree with and so immediately call them people who 'cheese' the game or 'exploit' it. It's been around since the days of the first online MUDs - and yes, I'm old enough to remember them.
For me it just feels like they have been milking this game for far too long. They need to add the story mode and release it already. Far too much rebalancing for my taste. I agree with the video for sure, 9 years in pre-release is way too long.
No matter what change they make to "fix" an "exploit", people will just go to JaWoodle and see how to build a zombie proof design and use that or a similar version of it.
@@brianm.595 yes, they need to stop making paid skins and paid DLC to their early access game. Darn them for fixing and expanding their game instead of forgetting this game and making an unfinished sequel. They need to act professional like other AAA studios.
There is one massive flaw behind the lump sum of all of the presented arguments in this video... the number of 7 players has grown dramatically and the rate of new players has grown dramatically since making these changes. This video isn't really speaking for the majority of players, this is speaking from the perspective of a veteran player who finds it difficult to adapt to the changes.
110% Agree with you here. My favorite playstyle was absolutely destroyed when their changes hit. I just want to dig into the side of a mountain to setup a dwarven mountain home and to create a dungeon with my advanced engineering degree that the zombies will be forced to path through if they want to get to me only to destroy themselves on the dastardly traps that I've left for them.
i wholly agree. they need to stop nerfing everything people come up with to survive a horde because its "not how we want you to play" i hate the fact that zombies are graduates in engineering now and know EVERY Weak point of your base. i miss A15 zombies
As a game developer, I'll say this:
It's easier said to just say "oh work on the game and not fixing things".
See, in the grand scheme of things, it's easy to add things to a game. Adding content is honestly the easy part. The hard part is balancing it. And trust me when I say this, if you don't balance while you add things to the game, you'll end up inevitably fucking the whole thing up.
During my Masters in Game Design, my professor and mentor once put it like this:
You're baking a cake. You have all the ingredients for a lovely cake. The thing is, people want it *now*, and you need to bake the cake quickly. You think, "well, if I furlough measuring cups and spoons, I can just eyeball everything to save up on time". You do that. You've made a few cakes before, and you trust that you'll be able to get more-or-less the right measurements of everything. So eventually the cake is ready and it's not great. You had the highest quality ingredients and a fantastic vision for a great cake... but what you got was a cake too salty, too slimy, and just horrible. So now you have to try and salvage your cake, but you just don't have the time. You try to dump some sugar on it, coat the exterior in icing, but everyone sees through it. All the party-goers see is not the high quality ingredients, but they see a piece of shit slapped together hastily.
ingredients
@Maurizio Corradi Changing the HP value of a pole block which is like half of what he talked about in this video is not "LOTS of time and effort" it's literally a single value in the code....
@@aberrance6706 And to get to that point they had / have one or more person sitting and watching for things like this.
They find something and involve more people and then fix it.
Just another few people not working on finishing the decade alpha.
Players: *get set for the long term by day 21*
TFP: "ho-ho-hold up there buster, looks like you found an exploit in our game."
Started a new game, made my first tier 2 quest, oh new poi, empty construction side with a lot of trenches, looked around, hmm seems okay, started it.
Suddenly 15 - 20 Zombies popped in out of nowhere. Cops, Biker, Fattys, all types of zombies at day 3? More than at an old T5 ?
So i stood there with my Wooden club and my pipe gun. Fine easy way to get rid of the desease that you now pick up very fast from every zombie, special Vulture seem to stack it up fast.
1 Vulture not killed fast enough can get you up easy to 2 - 3 %. Nuts. Sorry for my bad english, it is not my native language.
Thank you mate! Excellent video and you hit the nail on the head. Some of the previous game changes had pushed me away from the game for nearly a year. I to wish TFP and most likely one particular developer there would stop trying to force people to play the game the way they want us to and just get unfinished content done.. .
How about full optimization? The game, Especially on a 2080ti, 64gb memory, a 6 core system should NEVER drop below 60fps let alone 30 or even 13....
They're not trying to force you to play how they want you to, just prevent you from playing in ways that circumvent the intended challenges. You have limited health, but no one complains that having a risk of dying is forcing people to be careful about avoiding damage. You have to eat and drink, but people aren't complaining about the devs forcing us to endure survival mechanics. Every game has a set of rules and parameters that make it the game it is... one of those in this game is that horde nights are deadly challenges that one must prepare for and endure, and having it possible to essentially nullify that challenge in perpetuity with a simple build violates that part of the game's mechanics. They've already provided many customization options for difficulty. If you don't like dealing with horde nights you can turn them off, or make them less frequent.
Honest assessment. I often feel like 7d2d is being developed to counter Jawoodle rather than make the game more enjoyable.
Guess I'll add my two cents to the discussion as well
On the digging zombies, I would not have minded it, if knowing where the weakest point in my base was reserved for say construction zombies, maybe military zombies (not all zombies of these types, but some)
On the front of horde bases, for stuff like the base design for falling, instead of making them repath and break stuff to reach you, I'd use the old gore block stuff after they fall enough times, eventually creating a mountain of bodies, with increasing spawn rates the more gore blocks are present, the idea being that they are throwing themselves at you in suck number you can't rely on gravity to kill them. Stuff like blade trap bases, while satisfying for me, take alot of the fun of shooting or stabbing the horde. I do miss the era of bunkers to hide, and I wish hiding from horde night was an option once again, just find a nice dark cold corner to wait out the horde.
Enjoyed your video. I agree. I remember I loved building luxurious underground bases. In a real zombie apocalypse, wouldn't hiding under ground make complete sense? There's a reason real life bunker companies do this. I hated the "auger-hands" digging zombie change. I also hate they messed with the MP-5 hooded front post replacing it with a boring ridiculously large front sight post on the "smg-5." And if they are going to make a 4x scope LOOK like an ACOG, it should have a reticle LIKE an ACOG - a lit up chevron or horseshoe. The color modifiers should change the light of the reticle.
I really liked this video and your perspective. I feel that fine tuning the pathing/building mechanics is part of "finishing the game" and I doubt that the whole dev team focuses on just those specific issues instead of carrying the game forward. I too love the game and your channel keep up the great work!
Actually, ai pathing has been done solely by Fataal for years now..so hes like 1/50th of the dev team.
8:07 for the summary (for those in a rush).
I wholeheartedly agree with all the points made in the video. I know quite a few people, including youtubers, who refuse to but the game as it is still in alpha. Coming out with a finished product will therefore increase profits more than spending all your resources into making another alpha.
I pretty much agree with TFP especially with the poles. Why should a block, a quarter of the size of a full block be as strong? That doesn't make any sense. Where the TFP went wrong was those smaller blocks should have been cheaper to make. I get it, if you want the full 7D2D experience then don't make cheese bases. My fave part of 7D2D are the horde nights and personally, I don't see the point of cheesing the horde instead of fighting it.
I agree with making it easier to find you on blood moons but full on changing it so zombies were now able to dig to you wasnt fun. They should just make them more aware
Lmao, this guy doesn't even know that zombies digging was in BEFORE the console version came out. It was ALWAYS intended to be part of the game, it was just broken and not working correctly at first so they removed it to add it later correctly, which they have now done.
Hiding underground and never fighting hordes isnt "7 days to die" its "never ever die" go play minecraft if you just want to build underground with out urgency and entropy.
Why? If you like playing without hiding how would this ever come up? Again this seems like you saying that's not how I like to play so no one can
That’s very speculative. In fact, no one outside their office knows how much time was spent on zombie AI.
You're totally right -> they don't patch the Game, they ALWASY patch(ed) or "outplayed" the Players!
They did it from the beginning and i think they wont stop it or even "Finish" the game anytime...
Feels like the "Zombies" must be "Zombies" from SUPER Intelligent Aliens with X-Ray and the ability to do MATH! :D
The things I would fix would be the things that don't logically make any sense. Like building a base on top of the empty space from a drawbridge being up, or zombies only spawning in when you step into a certain hallway, or the non-existence of functioning boats, or the lack of floating structures without pillar supports in the water like floating platforms, or yeah, the water.
Most of those "strategies" would work in real life and would be perfectly valid.
Hiding out in an underground bunker? Zombies are too dumb to find it. SAFE Hell, I feel like this is default go-to behavior in the apocalypse. The problem is HAVING the bunker to begin with.
Putting a base up on concrete or metal poles/bars? Um.. why not? Literally why not? There is no rational argument why that couldn't or shouldn't be done.
In fact, it's a great idea and the fact that they can bash through the metal with their bare hands is what makes no sense. Making a base like that SHOULD make it invulnerable. Part of the problem with surviving a zombie apocalypse isn't being safe from the zombies, it is surviving WHILE safe from the zombies.
With injuries, infections, hunger, thirst, and dwindling supplies and ammo... eventually you have to leave that base, and that's when they get you.
Having an impregnable base is only the first step to surviving. You can't live in an empty bank vault without food.
And the ramp thing.. while constructing anything at the level that 7 days allows is pretty absurd to begin with, it IS possible. And we have always been using our intellect and crafting skills to create traps and such that exploit our enemies and prey (and vermin). Saying that ramp thing is an exploit is like saying that a mousetrap is an exploit and you should fight the rat hand to hand like a man. It's dumb. If zombies are dumb enough to try to walk over an unstable surface to get to the bait, and then they fall down, then I see no reason why that shouldn't happen in the game as it would in a real life zombie apocalypse.
They're not all there, and can be easily fooled. In the walking dead they herded thousands of zombies up a hill and off a cliff into a canyon where they all died and splatted on top of each other. Rats will climb all the way up a combine conveyor belt and fall right out the top of the chute and into a burning barrel time after time after time. Because they are dumb as shit and that's what they do, just like zombies. They also used a pit with wind chimes in the center to lure mobs and mobs of them in and then just either set them all on fire or spent the day stabbing their heads with spears. Or put a wounded animal in a cage with spears sticking out in all directions for them to walk into and stick themselves.. or lead the horde around with a loud car blaring its horn. Or walking through the crowd of zombies by acting like them and covering yourself with their guts. Or literally just stabbing them through a chain link fence. The list goes on and on how they can be tricked and fooled and outsmarted. It happens all the time even in Walking Dead, which I think is one of the best sources to go from.
I guess my point is, exploits are only exploits if they are things that can't be reproduced in real life by your average smart person.
If it can, then there is no reason for it to be removed.
Sorry Saven but I really like what TFP is doing with the AI. Yes, it still needs a lot of work but it is getting better every version. And I can tell your a “new” player since zombie digging it NOT new. They could dig in the very early versions (pre A14?) of the game, they simply turned it off for a few versions until they removed the swish cheese that they caused. Also the block HP change was just some minor XML stuff. I’d bet the meeting about the change took longer then actually doing/undoing it. I do get what your saying though and I do kinda miss the pillar style bases from A16, the maze bases from A17, and the pyramid bases from A18 but at least the zombies don’t just stand there when they can’t get to you now. And I’m finally kinda scared to hit up a T5 pois on day one. Mostly because I had a cop jump on me and they are kinda hard to kill the fist day.
I'm a console transplant (as mentioned in this video and several times in the past). Started playing when the game came out on PS4 (2016). I guess you could describe me as a new player, relatively speaking.
Honestly one of the things that made me rage the most was how many rooms are auto wake up trigger rooms now that just are like "oh you went full agility stealth and thus have no great ability to handle a bunch of zombies running at your face in a confined space? well thats unfortunate" It feels like 80% atleast of new or updated pois have trigger rooms somewhere in them now.
Excellent video. I agree 100%. 7d2d is amazing and fun. Players will always find a way.
We always do!
To me, it feels like if Nintendo tried to stop people from time skipping in Animal Crossing because "that's not how it should be played" instead of letting people do what they wanted with their personal game play experience.
I'm not familiar with Animal Crossing, so I'll take your word for it 😀
They are focused on going gold. I'd like to see a little randomness in pathing during horde night to throw off people using simple bases exploiting pathing.
Zombies should just look for you, and head straight for you. If that means the walk off a cliff, or stand at the bottom of the base hacking at it, then so be it. I think the Pimps are trying to make the game challenging. Problem is, they are taking it way too far.
I just question their priorities at times
@@SavensWorld very fair criticisms of a game in the later half of the FIRST decade of its development haha.
@@Universal.G Then just build a cliff of death and you survive the horde? There is a reason why zombies arent that stupid. would make the game wayy too easy.
@@FlyLeah I totally agree. I think the issue is also hardware limitations. If we could get Walking Dead size hoards, it wouldn't matter. Hopefully if there is a 7 Days to Die 2, it will Utilize Unreal 5 Engine with nanite. With that, possibilities would be almost limitless
A zombie is a human body. If a human can't bash through concrete with their bare fists, bend iron bars, or plow through dirt and rock like a backhoe, then zombies shouldn't either. Sure, you can allow some bonus strength from being undead to power them up a bit and the fact they can ignore pain... but that should be a small percentage increase...like no more than 50% . Even a 100% increase wouldn't allow that kind of behavior.
If you can't see yourself doing it at full power, then the zombies shouldn't be able to do it while half dead and rotting. It's that simple.
I have always wondered why zombies have to be sooo stupid...? Like why can't some of the zombies use basic hand tools and melee weapons? Unlocked doors should NOT pose much of a challenge to some zombies, there should at least be a chance that they could just open the door/gate/hatch etc.
@@chrispkritter5433 Yeah, just think of it this way.. if you can do it while drop dead drunk.. then a zombie should be able to.
Try setting your zombie block damage down to 25% Saven. I find that a steel block feels like a steel block.... and the zeds. Can't dig very fast down to underground. By the way, TFPs have reversed the block changes, all blocks are the same HP again. :)
Once you try zombie block damage to 25%....walls work. Reinforcements reinforce. Steel doors hold for a sensible time and every aspect feels more emerging to me. Honestly, you HAVE to try it.
I'll give it a shot. Thanks!
TFP said they have only reversed it so they can rebalance the block HP behind closed doors. When that is done and they find a way to elegantly display the HP of blocks in the shape menu, then they're reversing this reverse.
You aren't supposed to be able to build some simple structure to completely bypass the blood moon.
You're supposed to build up a clever base with walls, traps and other defenses where zombies still have a chance to get to you if you're not careful.
That's how the game is supposed to function, and I welcome the Fun Pimps making it so that you can't cheese around it anymore. At least not as easily.
I agree with you on the " let's us play the way we want ", Yeah I did many times build underground because I wanted to focus way more on exploring and looting rather than building.
Some changes I'm not a fan of = removing almost all outdoor Z's for sleepers. shoving lamps and flashlights to show what way we are supposed to deal with POI's ( Farcry does this also and I find it irritating but understandable since we don't want to jump every 30 seconds trying to find the right place to climb ) but in 7days we don't need our handheld to cross a street!
Why do they care if I want to build something near-indestructible? I bought the darn game let me do wth I want!
If they really want players to have to consistently take care of their base, instead of making blocks weaker add tougher Z's or mini-boss ( like demolishers ) if my place is made of concrete or steel-reinforced I didn't spend all that BORING time mining all this shit to see Z's destroying blocks with their bare hands ( do they seriously think it makes sense for skin & bones to destroy concrete and steel? )
I remember a few years ago in some forum people talking about why it's still in Alpha, someone mentioned that developers don't pay sale taxes on beta/alpha games and the game can only stay in those as long devs still work to improve the game if this is true well I am not expecting the Pimps to finish it anytime soon.
I'm close to 6k hours in 7days at least 1/2 of those are by playing modded ( Starvation-Darkness Falls... and right now Sorcery ) if not for those great mods the game would have been gathering dust in my library a while back!
[edit] it's like the new weapon mods coming to A21, they have been available for a while on the Darkness Falls mods, they have been in the game files for years so why the Pimps are sitting on them for so long?
admittedly zombie pathing is tricky business but I think the solution would be to develop new enemies specifically to combat certain strats, thus diversifying the AI rather than limiting the players.
I think with regards to the first half the of the video, the fun pimps NEVER want you to be 100% safe, so the easy to do underground bases and the cheesy zombie corridor bases were definitely against their agender. Do you really think digging a couple blocks underground or making a cheap easy to do horde base to completely negate the horde is rewarding?
I think it can be rewarding in ways of figuring out the game for the newer people. It’s such a hard game to get down even after I’ve put in hundreds of hours in the console version (I do not have the PC version). And getting late game while not having to worry about hordes when you’re underground while you craft, build, and mine is fun for me because of that payoff of learning more about the items you can craft. I plan on going back and doing an above ground base for another playthrough to challenge myself, but for newer people this would be very difficult and probably deter them from playing because it could still be too difficult for them even with modifying the settings. Especially if someone jumps from console to Alpha 20 and not realize the differences in gameplay. But to each their own and people can do what they want. I’m just ready for console to get the full update😊
@@matthewbevis3490 : Ummm, I simply turned off horde night till I leveled up my character to something respectable. The game is still hard enough as a straight survival game with random zombie encounters and fetch quests.
Exactly. A core mechanic and standpoint of the game becomes nullified. And 7 days to die is so boring in the late game, because there are no challenges. Devs should definitley keep iterating and changing AI to make it more dynamic and complex, so there are no immune bases as there are now. Why built anything but a stupid op killing corrider if it works all the wasy from the early to late game hordes? There is no incentive, unless they introduce either better AI or special type zombies that can jump, climb, crawl, breach , poison, etc.
@@anaximander4589 That would be awesome if the late game hoards are the ones to slowly cut down the cheesiest of bases. The mammoth zombie that did not was suppose to destroy your base but no one wanted to lose a base.
Not gonna lie, I found the 'tactic' of digging a hole and practically be invincible the entire blood moon to be quite stupid. So kinda liked the digging change, as my friends started to have to actively defend themselves one way or the other rather than playing moles.
The slippery slope bases were fine though. You had to build it rather than a couple of ladders and a hatch. At the end of the day though, it really didn't matter to me. I'm just glad I somewhat more actively have to defend my basements and tunnels as a result, rather than being entirely safe.
I just turned the blood moon hordes off and upped the difficulties other ways when they started nerfing everything. For one, I'm a zombie purist. I see zero reason to have them turn into Usain Bolt because the sun goes down, or be able to dig through solid stone and crash down concrete walls "because zombies." For another, I like the exploration and survival aspect of the game, not the "7 Days to Build A Base For The Next Horde" that the game became. The elitists out there will criticize that attitude, and for which they can suck it, frankly, but not everyone plays the same way - nor should they be forced to.
@@TheDoctor1225 Yeap. By all means, everyone should play as they want. If people drove around in M1's, it'd make no difference to players not part of that playthrough. But I personally am going to stand firm that digging zombies made the game more fun for myself. But I do second the opinion on running zombies. Rather have more durable, bigger hordes than shooting Sonic. The walls-issue is rather easily solved through settings too, though. :P Unfortunately I believe changing that would make it just as hard for them to mow down wood, and indeed dirt, too, but.. It's there.
Keep playing the way you want to, as it should be played.
👍
This is exactly my main problem with the game and the reason i burned out. Like, i tried to survive a horde night on a vehicle, and instead of having a fun night of vehicular manslaughter, i got ganged up on by 800 vultures that outsped my motorcycle because the fun pimps are as vindictive as devs get.
Only devs ive seen worse about this kinda stuff are the devs behind cataclysm: dark days ahead.
The vultures are just a pathetic attempt to force players to face a horde rather than run.
@@whiteraven550 yep, and its actively bad game design. "Ah yes, this enemy outspeeds you no matter what, is borderline impossible to hit, and every attack it makes crits."
Probably one of the best example of exactly what I am talking about! I'm kicking myself that I didn't include that in this video!
Non of this stuff effects my gameplay. I use a pyramid style base with dart guns shooting the zombs in the back and head. works great.
They are not trying to prevent players from playing the game the "wrong way".
They are providing these players with a new challenge to keep them entertained.
If they stopped making zombies smarter and gave us Bandit raids with weapons and threat levels, you wouldn't need smart zombies to beat horde bases, Bandits with pickaxes or RPGs would.
I prefer the challenges the fun pimps add to fix there AI. Makes the game more fun to play
Agreed, learn and adapt is a big part of survival gaming IMO.
Very much agree on the AI part. Once I figured out their pathing I just built my base accordingly and suddenly it's even easier than before. Leave an opening and line them up in a tunnel/corridor and you have easy kills.
I personally prefer the old AI where zombies would just beat anywhere around you. Gives me a heightened sense of danger and fear.
Your take here is objectively wrong. Because game reviews exist.
Scenario A: Fun Pimps correct exploits players come up with, exploits that make the game stupid and cheesy. The finished product is something that's challenging and fun, and constantly keeps you on your toes with an ever-escalating difficulty scale.
Scenario B: The Fun Pimps take your advice and let players play how they want, using stupid and cheesy exploits. The game is released and gets m'eh reviews because it's too easy to beat with this "one neat trick", and everybody knows it.
Let the devs make the game how they want to make it. They're the ones who have to face the angry (or bored) hordes on release day. The fact that you're annoyed that your cheesy exploit no longer works is relevant only to you, not to the fanbase as a whole.
Your problem with Scenario B is that it IS going to be that way, it's just a NEW stupid cheesy exploit than it was last Alpha. If they squashed ALL the cheese then this would be fine, but this game WILL release with super cheesy exploit, it just won't be the one we have right now, but a new and different one. Scenario A is not going to happen. Viva La Cheese!
Zombie AI isn't trivial, it's half of the survival part of the survival game, eat/drink and don't get killed by zombies.. they don't just take into consideration the cheese horde bases, they want to improve the AI so the game isn't just simple.
The majority of the fixes come from people saying something is too easy. So, they look into it and see what easy is to some people. Fun pimps don't want broken AI pathing and they don't want stupid zombies, so they are trying to avoid that. So while you might complain that the fixes are bad? They are actually good, because zombies are WAY better than they used to be and it is because of videos like this and a plethora of others, that they keep changing.
Valid points! I thought I was the only one! I thought you were going to mention the fix about "the pit" as well. The zombies resistance to fall damage and the spikes.
I love 7dtd but at this point it's so difficult for me to play. I even tried it on scavenger. Mountain lions outside the trader on day 1 then got attacked by a dog horde on day 2 in the woods. I can go on lol but I can't keep up with everyone else style so I concur. I'm glad others feel the same about the past changes
I've always had some pause in recommending changes to the devs. There is a lot of effort that goes into any game, and making changes based on the dev's perspective - even when that perspective is allegedly informed by a minority of players exploiting a single feature - is still kinda up to them. I do share your sentiment when changes are flipped and flopped because a solution was rushed or impractical, but I'm legit thankful for dev streams and how public they are with their updates.
Either way, you articulated yourself well and with kindness. If we can agree on anything it's that this game is friggan fun and A20 is DOPE! Keep up the good work, my man!
but again the point of all the options is to "Play the way YOU want to play. But also, you can't play that way."
100% agreed. I LOVED living underground. Made it feel more apocalyptic. Bring back underground bases and the Big spikes.
Kinda mad to hear we can't do this anymore, loved it too
pssst. you can. I did in alpha 19. I don't understand why people think it's impossible. you just have to go down far....
Remember when they took crafting quality 6 items away from us because apparently players didn't go looting? A change that basically killed crafting for EVERYONE.
No I don't, I still craft plenty of items, so clearly it didn't kill crafting for everyone. Hell most of the good stuff that people have on the server that I've been playing was crafted by someone who spec'd into the appropriate skills. No idea what you are even talking about here lol
I'm picking up what you're putting down! Why craft a quality 5 when I can loot an even better quality 6? Why waste the time crafting?
@@SavensWorld I feel like that just doesn't apply to alpha 20, loot progression is so stretched out now that aside from trader items and quest rewards you'll craft a level 5 item long before you even have a chance at getting a level 5 or 6 item from looting most of the time. In short it is about opportunity cost, how much can that level 5 item do for me before I pick up a level 6 that can replace it? Even if it is level 6 it won't necessarily be a better item anyway since stats are randomized.
@@LagunaFox Fair enough
This is the same company that, after 19 major updates, still doesn't allow you to sit in the chairs!
Modifying a value for a block is much easier to do than programming a whole new ai with brand new independent mechanics pathing and gameplay.. I personally don't agree with your take. Balancing the game should always be something that every mini-patch needs including into it. You need to lose something when you take on a horde or a number of zombies greater than 5. That can be stamina or bullets or even hitpoints from you or a block. This makes the game more enjoyable for the fact that you have to test things to find what is more effective or which structure takes less damage. We all love 7 Days to die to the point that The Fun Pimps team went from 10 ish members to over 50 in the last couple of years. I guarantee you even if they do the balancing part of the game each patch, it is not a struggle for anyone. I suppose like 80% of the time its just a number that needs to be modified. Nothing really special or time-consuming
The issue with spending time altering values to try to balance the game is players can just edit the file later anyway if they want to play the game a certain way. I like my water bottles stacking to 100 and my dynamite to be a bunker busting nuke. I play solo and that’s how I like to play. These players are either likely on solo or they are the host of the server and they want to play the game a certain way, why spend resources stopping them when they can alter it back themselves anyway? Spend dev time on the important issues instead, players can always mod or edit the finer details to their wants
It still takes time and effort that could have been better spent.
Zombies that magically know where you are and can path to you unerringly is not balanced. Nor are zombies that have sledgehammer hands nor get hurt at all by falling hundreds of feet. It isn't balanced, it isn't realistic, and it adds nothing to the game. It does, in fact, detract from the game in many ways.
People should be able to deal with the zombies how they want, not how you or the TFP think they should have to.
Maybe enjoyable for YOU, not everyone enjoys the same things, so speak for yourself. If someone would rather avoid the zombie hordes and just want to build a castle or underground super villain lair, that should be their choice. When you take a bunch of different game genres and smash them together, you are going to attract people who like different parts of the game more than others. Trying to force people to play a certain way is utter bull.
When did people forget that games are supposed to be fun? You don't have a right to say my way of having fun is wrong.
It's one thing if something is a bug and they are fixing it. But changing the AI as drastically as they have at times, and some of the other changes, have nothing to do with fixing bugs. They are trying to police how people play the game. Which is nonsense. There is no story or overall quest to protect. There is no reason for it. It makes no sense to keep trying to police how people play, when there are already so many ways built into the game to change it. Not to mention how easy it is to mod basic things, or use mods others have made to do so. Which is why there are so many mods that have been made to undo changes TFP have made. They wasted their time changing something that players can, and do, change right back.
You suppose, which means you don't have any idea what you're talking about. I am currently working on an overhaul mod for the game, and even things that you'd think shouldn't be hard, can take hours or days to figure out. And that's just messing with the XML, working with the actual game code is a whole different bugbear.
Bug fixes and balancing are one thing. Completely reworking game mechanics to stop players from playing the game a certain way is another.
I get the idea of customizing your game a certain way to avoid some mechanics and I know it usually brings more fun for the majority of the player base to play the game casually. Maybe that's why we even have the option to tune down the zombies from killing machines into an absolute joke putting them on walk(even for night), low difficulty, or even disabling the blood moon horde completely. Maybe I have this take cause I love roguelike games and I usually play 7 days with the difficulty cranked all the way up and play a scenario where if I die I'm moving on to making another world or reset the one I'm already playing on. Don't get it twisted, you're still right in saying that investing time in anything other than pumping out new content, balancing the game, and doing bugfixes is pretty useless sometimes but when I get something like feral sense(which was not necessary, let's be honest) introduced to make the game even harder it makes me happy that I can play my favorite game at a whole another level. I would also modify the xml to make the vehicles(which I consider too op) have like 95% reduced health tho but I'm too lazy to even look it up how to do that. Also, you had me die laughing when you said "sledgehammer zombie hands" cause you are perfectly right and it reminded me how I stumbled upon a feral day 2 and almost got one punched and died.
They been doing this for years and in honest its not fair. Like after all these years they still playing it like that, rather then fix bugs and new content they want to screw us over. When we buy a game we expect to be better and smarter then the ai not have all our building made pointless in the space of a day just because the devs want us to die in game. Like the console they should be working on rather then lame updates.
Spot on Saven. I too love this game, but am constantly confused by the un-Fun Pimps decisions to nerf player choice to have fun with their game. It's a bizarre thing. Hopeful they see the light on this issue and start to move forward with the game rather than getting bogged down by meddling with things that don't need to be touched.
I totally agree with you Saven. Thanks for making a video about this topic. Personally I miss the wedge tips from Alpha 18. I also miss being able to slow the zombies down by placing barbed wire underneath a garage door. That little trick was very cool. But alas that trick is no longer valid. TFP nerfed that too. For a company that has the word fun in their actual company name they sure seem to be against people having a fun time.
The barbed wire nerf is another great example!
I think most if not all of these things can legitimately be considered bugs. Instead of the devs nerfing the players, you can think of the players testing the game and the devs fixing the bugs they find.
Agreed... I only started this game in Jan and yeah, the nerfs smh ... I’m still dying nowadays in wasteland so yeah no need to nerf anything. Let players play
Let players play. Well said!
Only been playing 2 days but one thing I'd like nerfed would be the moroniclly OP vultures. Does the dev think bird talons can punch through steel like tissue paper and can rip out vital organs in a fly by? Or you not nerfed give the option to turn them off cause they're just dumb op.
THANK YOU so much for recognizing the pathing issue!!! i used to play this game so much, but when i returned the physics and game mechanics were screwed.
I liked the block changes - having any blocks HP based on the % of the square it occupies would be easy to understand.
If a block has lower hp it should have lower cost as well. If a pole has 25% the strength of a cube then it should be 25% resource. But with the ability to change shapes to build, that’d be annoying to keep switching the number of blocks in the stack. Alternatively if you enjoy the changes, you can go into the files and re-edit the durability of the items to whatever you like. I’m sure some people out there are playing with standard wood frames at 50k hp. And it’s their world so let them
The issue is why they made that change
@@SavensWorld They changed it back almost immediately. To me it was a "this makes sense, I don't like it, but it makes sense" kind of change.
But it shows they listen to the players more than most developers, and more than you gave them credit for certainly. Even the farming stuff got changed last minute before A20 went live due to player outcry (tho it still has issues if you don't go all in on farming perks).
No base should be invincible. Day 7000 hordes should not be cheesable. Be glad the AI doesn't see the fastest route to you being to dig under the base and destroy all the dirt til your tower collapses.
I understand the pole durability change. Its basically 1/16 the size of a normal block so it should have way less health. I do hate the digging zombies though. I love making underground bases and bunkers so when im crafting stuff underground and hear a banging on my wall, I hate having to go to the surface and tunnel through the mole tunnels the zombie left just to find him.
I usually dig down to bedrock and build two bunkers a manufacturing and supply bunker and a horde bunker at another place. The horde bunker got thouger defences but no manufacturing capabilities
@@Groza_Dallocort I've always preferred to do one main base that way theres more risk to failing to defend it.
I come from console as well, and if they hadn't changed the original AI pathing I would not still be playing. I think part of the fun is the back and forth between devs and players. I think the longevity of this game is the constant evolving. When you put words in the devs mouth like "playing this way is bad" or "No you can't do that", you are diminishing what they are trying to accomplish. I'm pretty sure they are aware that no matter what they do someone will always find a way to cheese the game. They are trying to make the best game for everyone. The original AI might have been more realistic, but it was also much more boring IMO.
I think the day that this game is complete, is the day this game becomes obsolete. The beginning of the end so to speak. I hope they never finish the game. Kind of like Mincraft.
there's a difference between going gold (which means the core mechanics are finally set in stone, basically) and continuing to add content, and staying in ALPHA for 10 years (Not beta, which comes before the gold release, but after alpha) because you can't/won't/are financially unable to hash out the game that you want. if they would actually finish the base game, it would probably wind up being as popular or MORE popular than minecraft.
@@jackclark1994 This game is more complicated than minecraft IMO. I would compare this game to Skyrim more as MODs for this game will keep this game feeling fresh for long time players, but do not forget that they have in the past year just reached 50+ developers which people like to ignore when they say this game is in development hell, even though most of its life they had 10 or less devs working on it.
Maybe some option for the world creation would suffice. Like "zombies can dig" or "zombies have advanced pathing" Etc.
I feel like these “fixes” are kind of what make the game enjoyable even after 9 years or so. It forces the player base who always build the “best” possible base from getting burnt out. How many people would still be playing after 20 alphas if they simply built the same thing each time?
Part of the problem is by nerfing the cheesers it also nerfs people who are building bases that don't cheese. If you want to hit between poles but they then lose 75% of their HP your base is now heavily compromised. People don't have to make cheese bases. It's just an option. But its also not that fixing these "issues" should be off the table. The effective argument is that it should at least be postponed so that development on other things can take priority.
Do they build anything at all? I have the impression that the majority of players just sit on some POI, punch some holes into the roof and call it a base. I spent about 10 hours building my base.
@@AndrewTheFrank You do realize that's not even the thing anymore right? That was already removed.
Well, I moved from poles to shooting cages, but mostly sticking to my usual designs. I 'only' started around 16 or 17 though I think, so eh.
@@andreas.grundler And if they do? Why can't they play the game the way they want to, in the same way you do? I play the game for relaxation and because I enjoy it - I don't have the time to build an intricate base and figure out all the nuances of how I can stop the hordes. That's not why I play. Why is it automatically "cheese" if someone doesn't play the way others do?
I like the changes to stop exploits being possible what the point of building a secure horde base when I can just cheese the zombies A.I. Ye I could always just ignore the exploits but it kind of takes away from the experience knowing that it doesn't matter how much I fortify my base or how many defenses I add, it will never be as secure as a cheese base.
The zombies are supposed to be a threat. That's the whole point of the game. I'm glad for the changes the Fun Pimps have made.
There’s an argument for both sides. On the for side, I think changing and preventing “cheesy” behavior is good because it increases overall enjoyment of the game, without it feeling like you need to rely on game-y mechanics to win. But on the other hand, it’s a PvE game, no need to fix things that only affect someone’s own enjoyment.
(Though I do wish that they would prevent repairing blocks that zombies are attacking in some way, so I can’t just repair my base during horde night over and over)
Before the zombies became structural engineers and got hammer fists, cheesing was much less of a problem. Players built bases based on simple principles that required no knowledge of the AI. When the Fun Pimps made the zombies intelligent and gave them hammer fists, the arms race began.
You want bases that look like they could work in real life ? Then you would have to go back to Alpha 16.
@@andreas.grundler Or turn down the zombie block damage in the game menu, or mod the game...
I agree that "going gold" is taking far longer than it needs to, but iterating on the nuance of how the things you mentioned work is quite literally a best practice of Agile game development... There are more dependencies there in terms of design than people often realize. Fun Pimps certainly do need to work on prioritizing their critical path, I'll give you that.
--A former Unity developer
I was excited to build an underground base in a mountainside. ...until I watched a video where, even with a clear path to follow, some zombies were literally digging through solid rock that *players* need a pick to deal with. Ugh. If I ever turn horde night back on, I will add the mods needed to make it reasonable, like it once was.
i got my laptop almost solely for 7 days to die. i absolutely love the game. i also came from PS4! i agree with you on this. personally i like Re-logic's [terraria's developers] way of doing things. they acknowledge and understand that there are way more players then devs and so they put out updates about a month before the scheduled release for the players to test and report all the bugs and issues. i've been playing since it released on PS4 so i personally haven't seen many of these changes personally since they stopped updating console like 2 years ago
wasn't completely their fault. they licensed it to another company to port to consoles and got screwed.
Every game development has what Re-logic has, it is called testers that is usually professional, but the bigger player base still will find bugs, and that is why TFP has a forum just for bug reporting. And a idea forums for players to post ideas that TFP to see and think about.
@@minisithunknown5568 well yeah
Yea I don’t understand why they would punish players for building bases that outsmart the zombies like that’s the whole point in building a base idk just hurts my head lol
Been playing since A9 and the zombies digging was removed sometime after that. It was always slated to be added back in. It just took way longer than expected and the underground bunker playstyle developed in the meantime.
So basicly you want to play a zombie survival game, where on every 7th day, the zombies come for you but you dont want to deal with them ? You wnat to change the whole concept of the game ?
I have to ask, is this the first game you have played that is being actively updated by devs? This is how they all work. The players find an unintended way to do things, the devs try to patch it out of the game because thats not how they want things to work. Stuff gets nerfed and buffed and rebalanced, sometimes its broken, sometimes it works. Things change. Ive been noticing a lot of people who play this game take it awfully personal that the devs dare to change things that make the game ludicrously easy. If you dont want to fight hordes then turn them off, you dont have to exploit game flaws to make yourself all but untouchable. The pole thing was obvious, they gave poles a quarter of the hit points because you can fit 4 in a single block space. They didnt like the idea of concrete bases having 20khp blocks when they were designed and balanced around being 5khp. And the fact that it took a day for players to find a decent workaround shows WHY it was such a silly thing to freak out over. It removed one thing the devs decided was an issue but allowed you to continue using alternate means that werent quite as good. Yes you can do double bars for 10khp, I think they at least considered that to be better than 4x the hp total.
In a "finished" game, none of this matters anymore, the game is done being tweaked so any exploits or flaws you can take advantage of remain, hence all those crazy speed run games where people glitch their way through walls and whatnot to finish faster.
To answer your question, no. This is not the first game I've played that is being actively worked on by devs. Sadly, this is an issue that plagues several games, but not all. The Infected is an example of the opposite. The developer of that game continues to improve and add content to the game without focusing on all of the nonsense I described in this video.
@@SavensWorld You could also argue that TFP is improving and adding to the game still. I think they just view exploits as bugs which is their opinion vs yours really. Nothing wrong with your view IMO as we can just mod the game or change the many in game options for our game.
Tbh what they did with the underground bases was Right... You shouldn't be able just to avoid the horde completely by going 10 blocks underground.
Great perspective 👏 👌 The fun pimps should just be happy that people are playing a 9 year old game and focus on finishing it......
Totally agree with the points made. Exploiters will always find a way to do their thing, you can't stop them. Just focus on finishing the game! We love it and can't wait to see the next lot of content they add.
Personally I like that they keep changing the Zombie behaviour, it keeps me interested in the game and me and my friends feel like there are new challenges and things to learn and find about how to play the game and deal with the Zombies, I see where you're coming from but I personally love and this is one of the main features I keep coming back.
er. well, they have a vision of how zombies should behave, when we find ways to cheese the zombie ai, what theyre doing is just basically balancing and bug fixing the zombies to be in line with their vision of how zombies should behave.
Ive seen the consequences of devs being forced to rush and building their game on top of problems you dont fix early on. they never end well.
i rather they polish and set their vision in place now and have a smoother developement cycle later rather then getting rushed and end up hitting multiple dead ends later on.
i agree 10000 percent! love your vids bro and you have a definite point of argument...they really need to listen to their player base!!!
Not really... They are in the top ten most played games on steam, and also have had the most concurrent number of players ever in the last month. Obviously the majority of players love how the development is going.
There are a lot of older things I seriously miss... the biome diversity, and the perlin caves... but its not my game, so I'll just adapt and happily learn new play styles.
Also Funpimps, if you could change the inventory of workstations so when crafting it looks at it's own inventory too and can take from that, it would be nice. Thanks!