What Is Liner Projection? What Is Liner Protrusion? What Are Counter Bores?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 1 ส.ค. 2017
- When a wet liner engine is rebuilt or has a head gasket problem, the term Liner Protrusion or Liner Projection might be brought up, but what is it? What are Counter Bores and why do they need to be cut? This video describes all of these in detail and why they are important. Thank you for watching.
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This is the exact stage I am at now with my western star rebuild. I am currently doing a inframe on a Detroit 14 liter before I pour money into the interior and paint. This is the only part of the build I have to sub out. I called a few machine shops and dealers to see who will come to me and do this. Quotes range from 200-250 per hole plus 150 road call plus 140 per hour. 1500-2500. Cutting these blocks is not cheap but one of the most important things on a rebuild. Thanks for sharing and explaining.
When I was learning Detroits I learned about this very thing....Great explanation Josh I hope this helps someone
How to prevent it
I might have some detroit questions
All of your videos are helpful. I know they have helped me out thank you for the videos
+dale intimidator Thanks for watching them.
Strait to the point simple easy to listen too showing all the tools and measurements thanks very much 😎😎
Thank you i have watched lots of videos where everybody shows liner protrusion but not how its fixed if it was wrong just a look its right and build thank you
As always, great video. Kudos to you Mr. Ape.
+BlindBatG34 Thank you.
Excellent, my man!
Very informative
Thank you
I'm always waiting for the next video...
I have a 3406E 1LW and I like to watch all your videos and learn... keep going
+Jc Jc Thank you.
I have a 1lw too but the stupid exhaust insert in the head at #4 got lodged in the manifold destroying #4 exhaust valves.so I'll rebuild it after I get some cash saved up.never new they had that problem cst dealer said oh yes they burn up valves when that happens.yup sure did and she sounded like a machine gun
Great video! Love your channel. I'm an apprentice and your channel has helped me a lot
+frankycomeau I'm glad you like the videos. I really like hearing from the younger guys starting out in the field.
I'm in the ThinkBIG program with Finning in Canada and are learning about engines and fuel systems riggt now, so THANK YOU for the help!!! Please continue with videos like this for guys like me in school trying to get a better understanding!! Any chance of hydraulic systems videos?
Very good video as always
You are a good man and an exelent mechanic
+Jc Jc Thank you
thank you very much
I've seen all your videos
You are awesome
+Jc Jc That is a lot of videos. Thanks for watching.
good video , pretty much any cat getting an inframe will need this done especially on 3406 models
Josh great videos. I have a quick question. Should I be checking longer protrusion Everytime I pull a head? And if it's bad, did my head gasket job just turn into an in-frame?
Hey man love your videos very helpful. Can you do a video on a runway engine
+Dylan Hollingsworth Thanks, the runaway engine, if I get one in the shop I could do a failure analysis on it. I don't have any video of one running away though.
Hey josh, first off love your channel and your in depth info you provide. Second, I had a question about what pitch the small head bolts to torque spacerplate are? I found the p/n on a soft washers but no numbers on the bolts. Thanks again
nice info do you see liner issues with c13 lee?
what causes liner to drop and how to use shims to solve this problem?
do you know cats procedure for reusing liner shims I cant find anything about shims in the manual thanks
Hey Josh I love all your videos and find them very helpful and informative. I have a quick question about C-15 liner protrusion. I just had to replace the entire head with a brand new one due to an exhaust valve failure and I was wondering if this is something I have to check before installing the new head with new gaskets? I never messed with any of the liners or pistons.
Any update
Very informative video. The cylinder caps in that engine are a cool piece of kit to protect the crank from shavings, are they a CAT only kit ?
+0BMM1 They are just plastic caps that are in our counterbore kit that someone kept from a cylinder pack. They are actually a little small and will fall down the cylinder bore sometimes.
I need your advice forums are not helping. I know you dont work on detroit but i need your input please. I got a 12.7 series 60 no egr last week my turbo started failing smoke out of exhaust at idle i replaced with a new 171701 borg warner. 2 days after i parked to unload a load and saw that the whole engine driver side was covered in oil. I took it in they cleaned it test drove it and all they could see was small amount of oil what it looked came from intake manifold and that my cam seals are shot. Their explanation was either cam seals are leaking bad under load or that when my turbo failed oil went in to intake and blew out under heavy load. But i only saw oil in the back of the turbo hot side not in the cold side. What do you think about this they said truck runs and sounds good which it does i was afraid of Headgasket no loss of power no noise no overheating
What town do you work out of the name of the company I enjoyed this video again medicine man
is that sheet from the CAT SIS? the liner measurements?
I'm curious to know what your daily driver is.
Hey adept!
A 3116 cat engine on a truck works fine, but when its cruising on a highway, hot burning red flames exit from the exhaust and the turbo turbine shell housi g turns very btight red, changed turbo, pistons, injectors, no change. Any help??
where does one get the special bolts to hold the spacer plate down while checking linear protrusion?
I just bought a Truck and it has compression in the coolant. My Truck is in the shop for check up and probably getting counterbores. Can they check protrusion to make sure it needs counter bores or there is no other way to check counter bores other then remove liners ?
Why do the 3400 series engines always want to sink in just one corner? I’ve seen it way more often than an “evenly sunk” liner. 3406, 3408, 3412, c15-18, c27 and c32 all seem to like to do that more than others. I also work for a cat dealer on heavy equipment in the field , and for a few years I worked in our rebuild center building engines. No one has ever had a good answer to that for me, I haven’t found one either. I also get asked this question, and all I can say to them is I wonder the same thing
Hey josh , got my 6nz pulled down due to head gasket . Checking liner protrusion and this motor has 1.4 million and 300k on platinum kit . Block is cut and shimmed. Is cutting the block a 1 time fix ? Or have you had issues after its been shimmed and sink a liner . Replace the shims ? Or is it rarely an issue after the cut ? Also have you heard of Indian head shelac on block and shim for under spacer for water sleeves ? Btw this burnt out the back side of 2nd hole not bad but enough to bubble in rad . Could it push to liner seals ? Tia
Will you put the space shim when checking the liner protrusion
Check out IPD parts, they have a good video explaining a lot about liner protrusion and how they drop.When I was at the dealership I wanted to cut the blocks to get a better lasting repair, but they said as long as its in spec don't cut it. engine would make it about a year before the head gasket would fail. the few I did cut never had an issue. Good video J.
+camshaftP16 The liner shims seem to absorb the wear of the liners better than the block does. I checked out IPAD AND they have some nice looking parts, I'm assuming quite a bit cheaper than Cat as well.
Thanks for all your videos, it helped me when I was rebuilding my 1LW , also follow some of your advice at TTR. IPD does make some good parts that's what I used, some shops even guys at TTR think they make some parts even better than Cat's parts. my next project will be a de acert acert with all IPD parts including one piece pistons with 16:1 compression, Thanks again. T800H
Hey Mr. Adept, you've been very helpful! I've bugged you with a few questions and I've now got another. I've got an 05 C15 I bought recently and I thought the previous owner had it turned to 550 but it sure doesn't seem like it. I had it at cat a couple weeks ago hooked to Cat ET for a different problem and I forgot to ask what it was actually rated at. Is that something saved in the computer where I could just call up and ask with my engine S/N or would I have to go back and have it hooked up again for them to tell me? Thanks!
+PickupsAreNotTrucks Can you send me an email at AdeptApe@yahoo.com and give me your engine serial number. I'll try to look it up over the weekend.
I’ve been cutting counters on all wet sleeved engines for over 20 years.....
After I do the cutting how long can I run the engine without having trouble again please let me know asap thank you and very informative video.
I have had to recut holes when head gasket fails and fretting occurs. Should last a while if all is done correctly. You cannot take a short cut any more. These engines are getting old and tolerances have gotten tighter. New/milled head, new spacer plate, new head bolts, new liners, proper lube on head bolts, block holes tapped out, block surface flat. Follow SEBF9008 from CAT.
Nice video man 👍🏻. Question: what do you recommend for the bottom seals on a wet liner (3406B) . the OEM says soap but it’s hard to know what soap is not going to corrode . What do you think about using CAT rubber lubricant on the o-rings ? Cheers from Australia
Rubber lubricant or tire soap is the recommended soap.
Adept Ape is there a CAT part number for liner soap?
Found it on sis 5P-3975 rubber lubricant
I have question for you, to check the liner protusion i also need to put the gasket below the plate ? That's the right thing to do ?
+Edivaldo Veronese On a C15 or 3406, yes you have to put the spacer plate gasket under the spacer plate or your readings will be off.
Hello Josh! Thank you for the great video. I still have doubts of how many thou the shim has to stick out from the block when it was cut for shims. I don't think I understood or missed it. Is it .0035- .006 higher then the block? Thank you!
Well generally the shims fit close to flush or slightly above the deck, but you really only measure it with liners in. Then the liners are about 4-6 thousands above the spacer plate and spacer plate shim.
@@AdeptApe I greatly appreciate your quick response!
If you bought a motor for a cargo truck, which cat model would you buy? Thanks for your good videos
+jose Hernandez Cat made a lot of decent different engines, but for the best resale value and the best longevity and power, you'd want to go with a single turbo C15 or 3406E. 6NZ is everyone's favorite
Great, thank you
How tight do you tighten the hold down bolts when you check the Protrusion
6 bolts per cylinder with the proper soft washers and its been revised to 70 ft lbs
Hey Josh long time watcher of your videos in which are greatly appreciated, I'm working on a in -frame C-15 accert rebuild when checking liner protrusion are you pre-installing the lower gasket with the spacer plate when measuring protrusion
Yes sir, you measure with the space plate shim and space plate. You would have a lot of protrusion if you didn't use it.
@@AdeptApe but not checked with the top gasket right
@@AdeptApe you would happen to know all my torque specs for the the head, rod and crank journals and oil pump
Thank you
Why is it always 5 and 6 on c15 cats it seems like?
Any chance you can put up a link to get a protrusion worksheet?
+None Ya business The form is really only for Cats OPT warranty inspection. You just really need to check the cylinder at 4 places roughly 90 degrees from each point and log it. If each cylinder is within .002 and within .002 of the other cylinders it is with spec. Assuming it is.001-.006 on a C15, other engines have different specs.
What engine block are you working on
What brand is that counter bore cutter and do you know anyone with any pre owned cat or detroit tools for sale?
What made you choose Caterpillar over other diesel manufacturers?
I wanted to be an automotive Mechanic, but got a job offer at Cat, stayed there ever since.
I’m replacing 2 liners do I need to replace all 6 ?
my experience is that you should do all six at the same time as eventually you will have to do the others that have not been cut, not only that but then you know your good to go for many many thousands more miles.
I believe you said dodo sir! LOL
Hey Josh how you doing,do you have a email a kind have a question about another subject thanks a lot.
Hahaha love the crickets...
+Mr PB. I've been trying to add a bit of humor to the videos, I think it makes them a little more engaging.
Adept Ape I follow a few truckers on youtube. One of the guys I follow had a problem with liner protrusion after he had his cat rebuilt. Ouch. Thanks for passing on your knowledge brother. Piper looks like a handful...of fun. Hopefully he is not too much trouble, Peace.
How much cat technician can change just to fix you liner protrusion? And then my mecanic finish the head gasket work
Do you think a 7.3 L International V8 is a good diesel engine.
+bryant gordon The 7.3 Powerstroke is probably the best small v8 Diesel out there. They made a bunch of them, they make great power and have a huge aftermarket support. I personally like inline 6 engines better, I would take a 5.9 Cummins over a Powerstroke, but that is just preference.
is there a generic Liner Puller tool that will work with the c13?
+Mister Nightbane Yes there is, we have one at the shop that is universal, you have to remove the piston though.
whats the part #?
Search on Amazon, they have em, though they're not really cheap
I just made mine. One inch treaded rod heavy plate on the bottom and a piece of frame on top
Does c7 have liner protrution??
No there dry sleeves ..meaning no liners
I'm currently in school to be a diesel mechanic.
Random question, how many engine rebuilds have you done due to a diesel engine runaway?
I'd say that is a very rare occurrence.
+Nick Holzemer Shain is correct, I've never done a Truck rebuild were the engine ran away. I did see one when I was in power generation. It was on a mechanical engine that had the rack stick to full fuel.
Whilst working for CAT as a mechanic I worked with a very skilled and experienced senior mechanic. One day he had a routine c15 turbo change out. The turbo was changed out all the normal checks done etc. but when this thing was fired up, man can I say what a show it was. Wow. The massive workshop I was in was filled with blue smoke in 10 seconds flat. I could not see 1 meter in front of me. And the scream of this massive diesel valve bouncing on it own oil was something I will never forget! Turns out the intake manifold must have been full of oil from the previous turbo failure, but had not been picked up when changing it out for new. Valves/head destroyed but bottom end ok. So always keep it in mind, it can happen, and when they run away you have to be prepared. But most of the time it's to late.
+Cherry Popper If that sucker starts running away and you can't stop it immediately, that engine is basically a bomb ready to blow off it throws a rod. That thing must have dumped a lot of oil if it made it through the CAC.
Agreed. Stuck rack is the only time I know of runaway condition, and that usually only happens after a pump rebuild, or some pump "tuning". Probably a good idea to have a CO2 extinguisher on hand and the intake open when messing around with the mechanical pumps. No way in heck would I stuff anything near the intake when it's running full tilt.
Just did n inframe on an N14 an didnt get the liners perfect....well guess what...
Dose anyone have a counterbore tool for sale?
I wish I would have watched this video before I assembled my engine...
You to huh, at least I'm not the only one
First test run and after putting power down, white smoke got back home compression from overflow tube off radiator, next day hydro lock.
My truck is the year before the Powerstroke but it has a turbo
bryant gordon good old idi only problems with those is heads would go if you ran toomuch boost or cavitation will get em sometimes
bryant gordon oh change your glow plugs every fall and DON'T USE autolite brand plugs they swell and get stuck in the head
Thanks for the advice
What is meant by a "marine cam" and why do people use them
My truck is in the shop now getting an inframe because of this exact problem.
Head gasket went out in April.
Coolant was pressurized on a Detroit 14l 2007.
Isolated the compressor and EGR and still had pressure.
Bought a 40$ head test Dildo looking tool (I call it a dildo cause you know your fuked when that goes in your truck LOL)
And sure enough it blew bubbles and also turned green indicating combustion in the coolant.
I removed the surge tank cap off and drove it from texas to Oregon like that while empty.
Made sure it always had coolant and also didnt heat up.
A hole in the wall shop said block and liners are fine and installed a head gasket. 30k miles Nov comes around and guess what? It was pressurizing the coolant again. Exact same problem.
Lucky I only had to make it 800 miles to the house.
Removed surge tank cap again and limed it home.
I took a ph video. DM me and Ill send it to you.
sprayed some light coolant but never hit the low coolant buzzard the whole way home. I stopped about every 200 miles and checked coolant. Had to ad in the morning about half gallon. But I think thats cause it got cold and contracted. Vs when its hot it expands and hit the coolant sensor.
Decided the dealer is the place to take it to this time.
They called and said head is good but liner fell.
I went to the dealer and looked at the head gasket that was removed at it was burned and cracked in the same spot as the previous one..
The first shop didnt see this video or understand the concept. Thus here I am paying for the job to get redone and now I am also getting a inframe done. Which I should of had done the first time.
Im glad I didnt have that shop do it.
Nothing like spending 16k for a inframe at freightliner dealer to make one feel like "badassbillybigrigger" Or brokedickownerop.
Thanks for sharing. Good job on the pics and video showing the tool needed.
It helps me understand what happend and how the dealer fixed it.
they charged 1300 to cut the block.
Don't worry about the nuke being false for me! Haha, The way My engines will run, in each cylinder, EVERY ATOM, will be SPLIT. Don't worry about my exhaust temps, I got some cool tricks! But one thing I can't stop is when that exhaust valve has to open to let it alll out... Gotta send it to space!
Crickets were a funny touch. But I could barely hear them
Sub titulos en español por favor 🙏
Install piston rings
The hand tool is much more accurate than the hydraulic tool.......and the 30 shim is way to expensive ......there are steel alloy shims that are much more cost effective....cat pt#5s8142
Does adep ape have a email address
My c15 is FU
You contact work
is 25 too old to start as a diesel tech
+George Wallace No sir, 25 is pretty young.
I started at age 5 as a Tonka mechanic 😂😂
In frame is never completely accurate. Never as accurate as out of frame.