I clicked on this anticipating a discussion of wildly overpowered characters, not learning that apparently the Fighting Game Community suffers from Cute Aggression.
It's all down to cultural differences, really. Idol culture isn't a thing in the west so characters that represent that looks weird and is generally not accepted.
Not gonna lie, I thought I was gonna see a discussion about their in game skillset abuse, and such... and I'm lowkey disappointed by the entirety of the video. Especially with the conclusion being a not-so thought provoking question. There's no doubt that most people thag like fighting games, like them because they're not anime tropey "cutesy" "UwU" vibe games. So inviting those characters into the roster will gain natural detest. That's just obvious. Asking why is..weird..to me. But the fact he overlooked their actual performance in the game, and how that adds to the feedback is a total letdown. I cant speak for Ingrid, or Lucky Chloe, but I can say... I've seen more stigma against Marie Rose and Honoka players rather than the characters... and only complaints of the characters by proxy. Marie Rose is inconsistent in personality, not lacking in it. Honoka has no defined personality beyond being innocent and oblivious, ie childlike. So to see her use these OP "cool" moves and in spamming methods is off putting. It goes against her brand as childish and suddenly she's a pro powerhouse, specifically one that's annoying to fight. That creates a big disdain for the playerbase. Marie Rose also has a generally aggravating moveset that also can be used to trigger the player-- and ruin their setups etc in an instant.. and she has one of the worst(best?) infinite loops in the game. You take that into account with a dry personality-- and inconsistent storyline and she's naturally gonna be disliked by seasoned players as well. Not to mention the general dislike that tbe characters are "child like" and sexualized to a point that it's SLIGHTLY uncomfortable. There's just not a lot of room for them to be liked. (Which was also overlooked in this video.) I can see why people dislike Marie Rose, I can see people being annoyed by honoka personality wise...but sheeeeeesh. FIGHTING THEM?😂 It's a rage cesspool waiting to be built...and likely the true base of most detestment. Which is something I've heard about Chloe too.
Never heard the term Cute Aggression, but I think I'm definitely gonna remember it. Plenty in the FGC like or are at least neutral to cute things sure, but there's definitely some sort of intense backlash like hate at this particular flavor of cute. It usually seems to be the...I guess audacity of a character like that appearing in anything outside of somewhere where its expected to stay like Blazblue or Melty Blood. I can at least understand that, not finding it fitting the tone of a game, but some of the rage seems to get really...dramatic. Before people even knew what Cloe's moveset was, I remember some people absolutely lost their shit at the character even existing. And in Ingrid's case its especially weird since like the video said, she didn't even come from a completed game to even ruin. Maybe it's a bit of a Scrappy effect? Like people thought the character was being pushed too much? None of these characters are really my cup of tea either but I don't entirely get what warrants the level of rage I see sometimes.
Not gonna lie, I always held it against liu kang for how often he was winning tournaments in canon. His story just didn't feel as interesting as some of the other endings.
From what I heard and saw in this video, it's not that Ingrid simply _beat_ Bison. It's that she made a complete and utter joke out of him, made Psycho Power (you know, the thing that defines Bison as a threat) out to have been something he _stole_ rather than it being given to or earned by him, and then just kinda left to make a joke out of good ol' MC Ryu too. And probably did off-screen, simply because she's Ingrid and she's awesome.
Don’t mind me, just watching a little t-Rex creature fight off a Mayan God before it transforms into a giant chimera. Then I’ll watch an overweight fat man who is more agile than most of the cast fight off a giant crystal monster before he suddenly loses all his weight in his ending. The logic of Tekken bounces in all directions. Isn’t that right Prime Minister of the Republic of Poland who practices Karate?
>a fun fighting animal born out of creative energy vs a little girl who has their entire personality and design be based around being cynical, tsundere loli bait Gentlemen.....
@@jacobfoxfires9647 yes, even Panda. And yes, Tekken is a serious fighting game - Kuma, Panda and Roger were always auxiliary trolling characters who never had anything to do with the main story. MK on the other hand, apparently finds it disgusting to dress women in ‘bikinis’ a.k.a. their original costumes. You can cut them in half, but god forbid you do it while they’re wearing their original outfits - you pervert!
@@billvolk4236 I think it's because the serious stuff in Yakuza is actually well-written with great characters meanwhile Tekken always been about throwing your son/dad off a cliff, trying to kill your family, devil genes that have a different origin when it feels like it, a ton of retcons to the point that 7 had Akuma popping out of nowhere and being a canon character that was around all this time but didn't do shit, it's pretty bad That and the silly stuff in Yakuza is mostly kept for the side-stories/minigames so it's not too jarring
@@Igneeka Maybe Tekken only works in Japan because at its heart it's about how taboo it is to hate your family. In the west it's weird if we *don't* hate our parents and/or our kids.
@The Tyro of Toriyama Tekken is better when it makes sense. The reason people aren't upset with Law and Paul is because they started with serious lore beats and when people were debating who unknown was and if Heihachi was dead the first time, Tekken was fun storywise. I think the best thing about Tekken is that you have all these separate story arcs going on simultaneously. You have Eddie's story about his father, you have Hworang's story about fighting with Jin, you have the big overarcing Mishima story, and my favorite, the King story. I'll bring up Yakuza because it's the one series I feel does the goofy and serious tones of Tekken right: 1) Make serious characters 2) Make a serious story 3) Make non-serious stories 4) Make joke characters. I love for them to actually give Lucky Chloe a story and personality outside of just being annoying. I think main characters have to have a serious air to latch onto.
Yeah. That's interesting. I never hated May. Probably because she looks cool and isn't an idol. (That's not a sarcasm, I just tried to see why I like May and dislike Chloe. I hated Bridgette though, even when I thought he was a girl).
To be fair, May is actually 20ish despite her childish looks. An Dizzy, despite her womanly looks is somewhere between 5 and 8... depending on which GG you play.
Pride? It's a dam videogame, if you no longer think highly of yourself after losing to Lucky Chloe than you may have some mental illness you might want to address before too late.
sounds way to sin of Pride to be general, As me myself wouldn't feel all that insulted at all since I know If someone can kick ass they can kick ass no matter how "cute" they are. I believe its more a personal thing that depends on you, I Like marie rose she's very Impressive and enternating as a character and does Belong.
@@Lethargy514 it's just something I noticed, what with how Dragonball was easily welcomed and yet anyone had to hide the fact that they watched Sailormoon or else they'd be bullied.
@Basil Basildon There's plenty of anime and media in general featuring both cute and badass characters. Hell, I don't know about Fist of the Northstar but there are characters in both Jojo and Sailor Moon that I would consider being both cute and badass. They're not as mutually exclusive concepts as people make them out to be. I just find it funny how so many in the fgc are so insecure and afraid of being labeled weebs that they feel the need to deny what kind of games they're playing.
I think the dislike for Ingrid is orders of magnitude smaller than the one for the other characters. I didn't even know the community hated her, just like, was passively annoyed at her.
Ok but wouldn't that be more because like f-zero she's not in any new games and won't be. Hating something is an active thing you have to do. Because she's hated Capcom would never put her in anything else. Because she's not in anything but ports from 20 years ago whos going out of their way to hate her. Really you were just born to late to know that said the fact that it did spark people who remember to immediately go into a frenzy, again 20 years later, implies she is pretty hated
Personally I can't stand Ingrid due to her being written like a terrible fanfic and with how the writing and presentation can't stop sucking her off. Like even if you take A.B.I.s statement on Alpha you also need to consider that Ingrid was also presented as casually shitting on Pyron. The constant boasting of just "oh she's so powerful even if Ingrid gets double perfected she's just holding back" is super annoying. Mind you that this is a treatment nobody else in the entire franchise, no matter how strong, ever gets. Akuma for instance is rivaled or arguably surpassed by Ryu, Oro, Gen, etc. and his win quotes and presentation never indicate that he just casually slaps everyone else even if in-story he is definitively stronger than most of the cast. Akuma has to put in work instead of just "being magic." If you put Ingrid in some fantasy anime fighting game like Arcana Heart or BlazBlue she'd be more of a natural fit but in Street Fighter she doesn't fit in at all. I'd still find her character and presentation insufferable but at least it wouldn't be entirely out of place. Even Oni felt kinda strange in the setting and that was an established character built on established lore, not some random schoolgirl who happens to use "the true Psycho Power" and is so much more powerful than everyone else that even if she loses she just "let them win."
@@Zetact_ Ingrid doesn't claim to be the true wielder of Psycho Power, that is a mistranslation. In her story in Alpha 3 has her trying to reclaim one of her crests which Bison stole from her and is using to power the Psycho Drive. Also, when was Ingrid portrayed as holding back even when she losses? Sure Ingrid's win quotes have her messing with her opponent or being cocky, plenty of characters in Street Fighter do that. Also, Akuma generally does get wanked to high heaven in Street Fighter. He is pretty much THE measuring stick when it comes to power. One of his most iconic moments has him slap Bison's shit even faster than Ingrid.
@@Zetact_ You do know that powerlevels do not matter in determining whose character is better at the game or more likeable? I play Sakura and Asuka innT7 and there is no possible scenario where they can beat most of the cast in canon.
You discussing tekkens tone made me realize thats a big part of why i like it. Its like one piece or monster hunter, the seriousness/drama go hand in hand with the absurdity and quirky shit. I really love it
6:04 Ironic considering the name of the guy demanding she be removed is called Hsu Hao, a name shared by a Mortal Kombat character who fans believe to be one of the worst in the series.
@@iisanulquiorrahara8 Jokes aside, when don't Mishima's throw each other into volcanos, or off cliffs, or out of helicopters... or into space? A properly told Tekken story should have some of the craziest shit ever, would make JoJo spit its tea.
Appearance aside, I think people had more of a hissy fit over Ingrid cancelling out Ryu's Dark Hadou than anything else in SFA3Max. Me? Ingrid's a good way to get my attention, much like any time Linn Kurosawa's ever brought up.
The funnies part is that when it comes to the Psycho power claims, it's all based on a mistranslation of the events of the story. Ingrid doesn't actually claim to be the owner of Psycho Power.
@@egxtra The thing about that is, Ryu wasn't being controlled by the Dark Hadou, he was being controlled by Bison who used the Psycho Drive to mind control him.
I have no issue with Lucky Chloe. Why? Cause I like to play as a Luchador wearing a jaguar mask that snarls and roars in order to communicate. Who am I to deny somebody the chance to play as cat-eared idol?
Same, but I like playing as an overdressed robot girl who can detach her head and hand it to her opponent to use as a live bomb, so I have no room to crap over a comparably believable girl in a cat outfit breakdancing.
@@JAnne_Bonne Like seriously, Alisa is more weebish than Lucky Chloe to the point of even speaking Japanese and it's the latter that gets called moe shit lol.
"Nooo you can't put joke characters in my serious fighting game, it ruins the LoRe" well tough luck buddy, at least you don't have to deal with goddamn SNK Heroines being CANON
@@revolvingworld2676 Yeah idk why many people hate when fg devs decide to do something wacky,cute,different or similar with their worlds it keeps them fresh and adds a lot
Reminder that John Vogel was not dismayed at bringing Hsu Hao back because he disliked him, it was because it meant he had to retcon the previous story element of Jax catching and killing him, which if you're writing long running story series, is always a pain in the ass when you have to backpedal on the writing of a previous entry.
@@billyj.causeyvideoguy7361 Characters aren't killed off all that often in MK. In fact no real deaths happened that were explicit until Deadly Alliance, unless you count killing Hanzo in MK Mythologies Sub Zero.
One thing to point out about Ingrid in Alpha 3 Max is that her arcade story contains a bit of mistranslation; The actual story goes is that Bison (somehow) stole Ingrid's seal (the two gold hair caps she wears on her head) and used it to power his psycho drive, and Ingrid goes to get it back. She's not claiming to be the true owner of psycho power.
Damn, Ingrid being the progenitor of psycho power was actually a badass concept ngl. We never actually get to see stuff like psycho power or the Satsui no Hado get an origin story, weirdly enough.
People seem to have forgotten that Tekken has always been an absurd game. I'll never forget the first time me and my friends saw Tekken 1 way back then. We thought of it as that weird Japanese fighting game with a robot samurai, a bear, a guy with a leopard head, and a purple guy. It also gave us this strange Japanese game-show feel.
Right, so I’m genuinely confused why that’s so hard for a lot of people to grasp. Tekken itself is a Japanese media franchise, so the fact that it’s mainly a lot of people in the west swearing up and down that Lucky Chloe ruins the franchise and demanding her removal is hilarious. I don’t play Lucky Chloe, but I do hope she returns to Tekken 8 as part of the story to trigger a lot of SJWs, and neckbeards amongst the western audience. Plus, I highly doubt Harada would give her the axe just because she’s a weeboo.
In defense of Abel lacking personality it’s a part of his character that he doesn’t have an identity. I think it’s fitting to have the man who struggles with who he is to have no personality since he hasn’t found it yet.
so the short versions are... Ingrid: hated by exactly six extremely loud people for a reason no one remembers anymore Lucky Chloe: hated by people who take the game with the literal kung fu panda way too serious Marie Rose and Honoka: Roman Reigns heat
@@The_Max1m Not really. I mean we can use Dural from VF, Shang Tsung from MK sure but theyre not the same ditsy girl trope that knows everyones moves that Yuri started
I think it boils down to the general stigma of cute girls doing cute things. People are more than willing to have female fighters since they often share masculine tropes for the simple fact of being fighters in the first place. Being sexy comes as a bonus. However, having cutesy fighters kinda crosses the line for the "HARDCORE" slice of the FGC since the archetype for the most part reject the typical sexy or strong tropes of a female fighter. This is why DOA fans have little to say against Ayane despite being younger than Marie or Honoka.
@@Lazrael32 Well, most of the complainers are mostly annoyed by them. 90%+ of the FCG don't really give a shit about cutesy characters as long as they are fun.
Dead or Alive 5 and 6 being rough at launch probably didn't help. Honoka probably would have gone unnoticed if Marie Rose wasn't so pandering alongside Last Round getting absurd amounts of costume DLC
Well said. And I think it's even harder for a lot of people to accept the idea of cute girls trashing the more serious characters in a match. I'm not part of the hate train: I was one of those who did play Capcom Fighting Evolution, but I wasn't interested to use Ingrid as there were better cast choices. I simply didn't know enough about her to want to use her, much less hate her.
Marie Rose is a breath of fresh air to a franchise where most of the females are associated w/ jiggle physics, and has become one of my favorites. But since DOA has a reputation of being a titillating series, her "underaged" design tends to make certain people uncomfortable. As for Honoka, I personally find her very generic as an addition to the roster since she's a top heavy schoolgirl whose moves are from the other characters of the game.
@@jp3813 I know it’s just cuz their both a bit young also I knew it didn’t matter as much with Marie I was mainly talking about honoka with like her “biker” costume
@@ProjectTaker At this point in the franchise, Eliot's still the youngest followed by NiCO, Ayane, Marie Rose, & Honoka. All of whom are 18 years of age. However, Eliot & Ayane both debuted in the previous games at age 16.
After the Lucky Chloe backlash, I, a man in his late 20s at the time. Picked her up a launch and played ranked for awhile. I genuinely think she's fun and I was hoping when people lost to me they got more upset. I do think its a "cute girl in fighting game" thing.
@@philithegamer8265 sometimes, but some people love the whole "not what they seem" deal. Lucky Chloe looks like a girl who would rather listen to music, rollerskate, and shop. But shes actually a strong fighter, and some people love the "looks weak, but isnt" type. Talim, from Soul Caliber, also fit this by being tiny as hell, but made up for it with blazing speed and mix ups.
That was Shinnok in MK10 for me. Everybody hated losing to him for some reason. I mean sure he's a little spammy, but he's far from the worst in terms of spam.
@@hellfrozenphoenix13 really? people see Talim as weak? she screamed "dedicated to the art" to me. like Sakura in Street Fighter, not as strong as their teachers but still very capable in most situations.
For the record, I want to say that I love Lucky Chloe, and the idea of eternal edgelord scumbag Kazuya having an insanely cutesy over-the-top Idol who never turns off the cheer running his PR is *fucking hysterical* and it's criminal we haven't seem them interact in-game
That's one of the things I don't like about Chloe. It just doesn't add up. She would have have done better being the face of the Violet Girls for Lee's Violet Systems.
@@zerosyaoran I'm saying G Corp should not be interested at all. If Lucky Chloe wasn't a bitch behind the scenes in the first place, you wouldn't have that idea at all. I'm basicly saying a character re-write. Maybe you like that, maybe not. It's just a thought. (Sorry if I come off sounding like a know-it-all prick. I can't think of another way to word that)
"why are these literal children in a fighting tournament" so we forgot about the trope of having _actual_ school girls running fades with martial artists?
@@spicymeatballs2thespicening and yet, it generates a ton of characters that people like. Sakura being one such example. Sure, you hate the trope and that is fair. But many people love it and that is also fair.
In one game.. Xiaoyu's ending had her use her winning money to fund a time machine, intending to go back in time and prevent Heihachi from throwing young Kazuya into the volcano, but when it appeared it hit Heihachi and directly caused him to throw Kazuya into the volcano..
I don't think there are any real "joke" characters in Tekken, aside from endings shenanigans. Law and Paul still look badass during the match, it's not like they're crying and falling over themselves like, say, Dan.
@@bennymountain1 yeah but still they should be taken serious in there story part. They've been comic reliefs for for a long time now especially paul and in tekken 7 just takes the cake. I actually enjoy the humer side of tekken, but some characters you gotta draw the line where enough is enough.
If you ask me, I think the hatred toward these characters may be rooted in a general distaste towards "moe". Fighting game fans seem to prefer their female characters to be sexy and badass, not cute and girly. It's why characters like Chun Li and Cammy from Street Fighter, Baiken and I-no from Guilty Gear, or the Williams from Tekken are highly regarded while these girls are looked down upon. Even though these hated characters can kick just as much ass as the rest of their respective casts, the fact that they do so in a jovial and girlish way tends to put off a lot of players.
That's where the argument of "this character doesn't belong in this game" comes from, when people see these moe, playful, childish characters that look like they're not even taking the fight seriously in the same ring as characters like Kazuya and Heihachi, they can find it pretty annoying, specially in Tekken's more "grounded" fighting styles, like Nina, Ana, Xiaoyu, Christie, it doesn't matter if they're sexy or cute, when it's time to fight, they take their fighting stances and fight, that may be why they're beloved characters.
Thats also why Giovanna is liked a lot it seems (and to be fair, I think she looks cool). But yeah, people dont want to embrace the "anime" aspects because it makes them feel embarased (and to be fair, I feel the same to some extent. I dont like playing May because of that. I love playing Baiken, I-No and I'm fine with Ramlethal, but when it comes to May, it can feel "wrong", or at least you wont be taken seriously afterwards.) This is coming from somebody that watches JoJo.
@@leithaziz2716 Ineresting, because in the GG community both Baiken and I-no are seen as characters played primarily by people who "don't play guilty gear". Especially now with the outrage over I-no's boobs and the "Baiken for strive crowd" they're not really respected by most fighting game players unless you're actually good with them. May doesn't get that kind of hate in GG and people really didn't complain as much about her as other girlish characters in fighting games.
@@toasted7719 Would you believe me if I told you I actually main Baiken in Rev 2? I find her to be cool. And I actually really like I-No's new look in Strive. Thinking of trying her out myself. But I am aware of the Baiken "fans" you're talking about.
Personally i feel its ok to have those "annoying" or "troll" characters in fighting games in fact i love to see fighting games with creative characters
Yeah, Charlie this air force guy is legit the god of combat on the planet. Then funny enough Cody was up there too where Akuma might have easily taken an L from these two.
Yeah. It's funny cause I myself find her to be a lil bit overrated. I don't dislike her at all, just not as in love with her as apparently every other street fighter fan is. But even I think the idea of her being crapped on if say, she appeared for the first time in sfv in her classic design is sad considering the the legacy of her we actually got.
Never had a problem with her exactly, but they always shoehorned her in games that had different artsyles and that always annoyed me a little, like alpha 3 where she, yun, yang and the ninja chick look a little weird around the other alpha characters
The Lucky Cloe drama made the least sense. She wasn't a child nor was she overpowered in the lore. Ignorant players just complained "She doesn't belong" in a game with boxing kangaroos and dinosaurs...
I don't understand the "child" accusations either. They use that EVERYTIME a young or young-looking character is announced. Look at how people got mad when Miyako was announced in the new Melty Blood game. They said "she doesn't fit" despite her being in multiple Melty Blood games in the past. Plus, young characters in fighting games was always a thing with characters like Sakura in Street Fighter or Platinum the Trinity in Blazblue and they said NOTHING about those characters. So why is it a problem now?
Ignorance is bliss and Common sense is not common, as long as these people get their characters in the game I don't see where this self centered attitude comes from, there should be characters for everyone not just muscle man machos.
Also, reminder that the literal cat is one of the few characters in the lore confirmed to have screwed (Is it just him and Nine?). Nothing to do with the vid or your comment, but the idea came to mind and I needed to curse someone else with that knowledge.
My biggest problem with Rachel is that she never gets "damaged" (her in game damage animation is off the cat), to the point there is no satisfaction. Then again, same can be said about characters like Izanami, Elizabeth and Slayer (that is until they added cinematic in Xrd, which made it far more enjoyable). Platinum is just a walking booger though, who thankfully gets bungled up too. Honestly, anime fighter fit better for the anime fighters, y'know.
I find it hilarious that people are saying they hate Rose and Honoka because they're "pedobait" ...as if Dead or Alive wasn't sexualizing underaged teenagers for the first 4 games. LMFAO
LMAO on your post. DOA NEVER had to have a clear generic lolicon on the roster or rip off a character name and looks wise from Love Live then shill them at every opportunity. Kasumi, Ayane, Kokoro, and Eliot never even came close to acting as clearly childish as Marie Rose, and don’t even attempt to deny it.
@@mortis.y2 marie and Honoka are 18 but it really only to make them easier to sell to western fans without them feeling like creeps you can try and say the same about Kasumi , Ayane, Eliot and Kokoro But like some one else said they never acted so blatantly like children and they were trying to make leifang and Hitomi act that way but They both supposed to be serious and smart so it wasn't never going to work without fan complaint which probably also influenced Marie and Honoka creation .
Ingrid seems like the kind of character people label "Mary Sue" and then just turn their brains off and hate, honestly. I can't speak to how true that is, though. I wonder if it doesn't have something to do with all these characters being feminine in a very particular "cutesy" way rather than any sort of "female warrior archetype" type of femininity, if the distinction I'm trying to make there makes sense. From the looks of it, Marie Rose and Lucky Chloe seem like the sorts of characters who don't really show much combat inclination or experience in their affectations right up until they are literally in the process of doing a combat to somebody. They don't outwardly "seem like fighters", I suppose. So, they have miens that are typically actually DISassociated with combat proficiency despite in reality being, well, skilled fighters. I think that sort of thing can create a really fun contrast, personally, but I guess a lot of people are really put off by it.
I only know Ingrid from Project X Zone 2. I love her, she is very snarky but her heart is in the right place. She has trouble opening to other characters but creates the chance for very good interactions when she does.
I don't know if that's the case for Lucky Chloe at least - people love Lili, for example, and she doesn't give off a very MMA aura. Chloe just feels overly fanservicey - an idol who wears some kind of lingerie and cat paws... her design is just a bit much.
i was gonna say that i thought some of the hate (specifically from male fans) for these characters is because they dont seem to be overtly sexualized in the same way that many female characters in fighting games are. while yes they are sexualized (after all, Lucky Chloe does seem to wear lingerie), at least with Marie Rose and Ingrid, they fall more in line with the lolita fashion style, a style that was originally popularized among women in Japan specifically BECAUSE men didn't find it attractive, despite the (prevelently western) opinions on the fashion and infantilization of women today. theyre meant to be cute, not overly sexy
I think I can connect those two points, a consistent issue people have with characters called Mary Sue's is being unreasonably skilled at too many things. I've never been a big fan of the idol trope, in general and in fighting games, cause I find it weird to overhype/fetishize an industry I *only* ever hear shitty things about, but in fighting games I have another issue. I just struggle to believe you're as equally skilled in both idol performances and fighting, specifically because those are quite unrelated skills. One character that doesn't bother me this way is Bridget, who uses yoyo's both for combat and for performance art, meaning they're effectively the same skill applied differently. Otherwise, I struggle to believe you exist in this world, even within fantasy, because people who are skilled in multiple areas prioritize and develop expertize in one thing above the others.
Abel character traits: Searching for a sense of identity A bit naive Resents being a clone/Shadowloo body Like animals, especially dogs Quiet, but friendly. Gief weirds him out. I mean, he's not Juri, or Viper, but he's there...
@@shadowmoon1657 he does have the wrestler suit, which can be considered very sexy. But otherwise, id say hes like a bee, doesn't attack unless threatened. Which i like.
Liking animals is the kind of thing you'd put on an online dating profile to hide your lack of a personality, like saying you're "fun-loving" or "laid-back." Everyone likes animals. And being "friendly" just means that you're not rude. Okay... what did you want, a cookie?
I can imagine the hate because the character's design only fulfills the Japanese fighting game communities' pop culture. Ingrid was hated because of the game she debuted being the worst fighting game Capcom ever made, Lucky was just one of those idol cultures that was pretty strong in Japan and the dev team possibly take feedbacks from fans for idol-esque fighter and Honoka/ Marie Rose is the only ones that I don't even know was hated.
During the Lucky Chloe Troll War, Harada at one point stated that Lucky Chloe wil be removed in all non-japanese Versions and be replaced by a generic looking white bald muscle man lol
Marie and Honoka are just victims of being rising stars who raised quite quickly into being actual stars and looking "different" from the rest. That is pretty much it... It's just like how SP mentioned that if Sakura had debuted more recently and not in the times of the arcades when no one in particular seemed to be a star besides the obvious one, and people just got use to her... she would be part of this group of "ill-fitting" characters.
@@troykv96 Wouldn't that mean that they are actually more beloved than hated? Every hot thing is going to have haters because people like being contrarians.
@@talhaahmed2130 That is basically what happens here, people pretty much hate this two just for being contrarians, it just happens that there are more contrarians than usual, enough to be... noticeable.
I hated Marie and Honoka appearances, but that faded away once I saw them fighting and seeing that they were not just there to be two most popular anime tropes, but were design with actual care and style that's just as entertaining to watch as any other DOA character.
As a Honoka main, I agree with your statement. Also, both Honoka and Marie are pretty much popular in Japan, so I don’t think they’re going anywhere anytime soon come the next game, even if the western audience were to demand they be removed from the roster.
It's probably because they're too cute and those people are embarrassed to be seen playing those characters in public. This video is also applicable to almost every Arcana Heart character too.
I think you might have hit on part of it. These are girls who can’t be fit into the standard “boys games” model. They aren’t sexy or warriors, and some people start getting really insecure if they feel like they’re doing something “girly”. It’s less that they’re cute, more that they’re cute in a way that makes a certain kind of guy feel like his masculinity is being threatened.
its the reddit weeb mentality, idk why they can't just like things without trying to smother it in layers of irony and "no I'm not one of those weebs bro"
Isnt arcana heart that loli fighting game? I mean, I dont hate any of the characters in the video, but I would definetly not want to be caught playin that, no sir.
As for Lucky Chloe....we got Alisa, two bears, Aztec Pillar Man Shrek, a doctor whose fighting style is a pure WTF-fest, a wooden puppet....and Yoshimitsu. So the complaints about Tekken not being realistical or serious is no longer compatible or relevant. And thats been for a looooong while.
Meanwhile, two kangaroos and a dinosaur have a boxing match, a metal puppet is fighting a robot Sargent, a giant bioweapon is fighting a dude whose not only was stuck by lightning, lived, and can harness it to boost his reflexes, but was also experimented on to be better at everything, and a alien Mayan God turns into a chimera to fight a high school student who turns into a Devil when his grandfather SHOOTS HIM IN THE HEAD AFTERWARDS!
I just don't like lucky cloe because her fighting style is hard to guard against for me. It's a personal problem and I don't hate the character herself
Fact: The "Idol" archetype was the real problem. It was and never will be a popular thing outside of Japan and to most people, ESPECIALLY outsiders, it's cringe as hell. I myself am a man stricken with "yellow fever", love Japan as its own entity and without that aura of weebs who think they know Japan because they watch anime, and actually want to move into its countryside one day... And I fucking hate idols. That said, there's another factor here too: Idol archetypes get associated with general "anime girl" archetypes. What do I mean by this? Athena from KOF. People fucking HATE characters like this and Chloe is evocative of them. And it's not like being an Eddie Gordo clone was doing her any favors because, surprise surprise, people don't like fighting Eddie players either.
@@Impalingthorn the idol archetype isn't a problem. Its only a problem to you. I didn't complain about her having a fucking dress because that doesn't matter. In a video game where a bear and a peice of wood can fight against a demon, that isn't a valid point
I'm one of the few people that actually likes DoA for the fighting (I don't mind the booba either) but it is true that Marie and Honoka took the spotlight and alot of fans are a little upset their favorite character doesn't get a decent spotlight anymore. My favorite characters in DoA are Christie and Lisa but because Japanese fans pretty much dictate the pecking order those 2 haven't been featured in a long time, not even getting included in spin-off games
Had no idea Ingrid was hated. My guess is that because the game she comes from is Capcom Fighting Jam, a notoriously bad game, people associate her with that game and so they hate her
I believe it's also because her A.I is harder than a lot of the fighters in the game. Been at least 12 years since I played Evolution but she was a basically a final boss that's only a secret fighter, can't recall if she was harder then Akuma or Pyron though.
I love OP magical girls tropes in fighting games. And yes, I loved Ingrid from the very first time I played the game(despite fighting evolution not comparing in quality to something like Capcom vs SNK) and I even have 2 figures of Ingrid in my collection of fighting game characters statues. Cant say I love her as much as Athena Asamiya but I dont get how she can be hated. She is OP because she has psychic Sun Godess powers(she even claims Bison stole his psycho power from her). So its explained. She is strong. Its not like she is winning the fights by slaping. Even her normal strong punches contain a cutting psycho energy light!
Correction: Street Fighter Alpha 3 Max isn’t a port of the PS1 version but rather it’s own thing combining all the assets and animation from the arcade version, all the characters that had shown in different versions up to that point (including Ingrid), all the game modes from the Saturn version plus extra modes, new features, and so on. It’s the most feature rich version of Alpha 3 and visually as arcade perfect as it gets outside of the actual arcade version (it’s just ok”).
I had no idea there was a community that hated Ingrid, I felt kind of cool going into this video with knowledge of who she was thanks to MattMcMuscles’ Wha Happun channel but then was wildly blindsided by the fact that she was so disliked considering she never really had a proper existence
The part that tilt those people (at least from what i can see) is the "cute looking girl beating the shit out of you " stereotype They can accept the chiseled god looking guy decimating his foes but the little girl in a cute dress is too much to believe At least that's what I think is going through their heads
Really? Cause dead or alive is made of of mostly cute girls and Tekken has like 3 different school girl characters and one wears an actual school girl outfit ,And street fighter has a school girl character as well ,it's definitely not about their cuteness
Chun Li and Cammy are both attractive. That one underage pirate girl from Guilty Gear doesn't even look strong enough to lift the anchor she uses to fight. Nobody hates _these_ characters as much.
I totally relate. I play all of them and even have expensive figures of them in my game gals collection(even Ingrid, I have 2 relatively old figures of her, not as expensive as the others from Kotobukiya but still...). I am the kind of player who mains the magical girl troupe. Like in KOF I usually go for a team including Athena and Kula. No magical loli idols, no life...Still, I wonder why Xiaoyu, Talim, Lilith, Baby B. Hood, Nakoruru and the Sakura from earlier Street Fighter games all get a passing from these moe-hating people...
As a Lucky Chloe main, i can understand the pain when fighting her, as I struggle myself despite knowing how she works. But i use her myself simply on a design basis. She appeals to me aesthetically and usually thats all I need to pick someone up. Its why i also main Xiaoyu, because i can make her look like my OC. Seeing people hate on her as a chatacter hurts my soul but it just makes me wanna get better with her. Knowing Harada likes her makes me happy though, so shes safe for now. Edit: lol the Tommy Wiseu got me
Outside of having Eddy getting shit on by her in both endings, I would say she's annoying to play as, and annoying to learn. Otherwise, having a character look like an idol is interesting.
As someone who only knows Ingrid from Project X Zone 2, I love her. She is snarky and funny and has trouble opening to others but her heart is in the right place. She has very genuine interactions with the rest of the cast (to be fair everyone does, it's a game written by Monolith Soft, human interactions is their jam). She does end up opening to other characters and creates very honest interactions.
I’ve honestly never had issues with these characters. I will say, it was a little bit funny to me, back in the day, that characters like Lili, Kula Diamond, and Ingrid all came out around the same time. Since they all looked somewhat similar. Same with when we got Rufus and Bob around the same time, or El Blaze and El Fuerte. I think the beauty of fighting games IS the variety in styles, both functionality AND character design.
i think the hate comes from the archetype they embody, the "tsundere little sister" archetype and that archetype isnt recieved well in the western world, if somebody irl was this cocky this smartass and dealing this level of mild abuse (of the kind seen in many tsundere) anyone whould have the urge to cave their face in for causing me pain without any reason, and that is how they appear in the games, reveling in your character's pain and your anger as if they looked at the screen and smiled at you, and when you end that match in that angered state you cannot place it to the opponent bc either you dont have one to blame or its online and you cant get mad at a gamer tag and a single match, so you direct that anger that was created by this character into the character and your wishes to never see them again just watching this video without playing any of these games i got why so many hate them
@AT Productions "I mean, given how these series also feature villains who are utter bastards who killed, injured and sometimes rape people, are these "tsundere girls" really THAT problematic to have in a fighting game?" I think the difference there is that the villains are treated as villains, while these girls are on the side of the good guys
@AT Productions I think the difference is that some people try to dissonate lore from characters as 2 different things. Like SugerPunch said, people like to see those two aspects as 2 different things and try to see only the gameplay when they play, call it ludonarrative dissonance (maybe they're ashamed of the plot and try to keep it away from them when playing. I personally cant really seperate them and dont know about how Max does it, I feel like its not for the best thatt he tries to seperate them so hard.) They wont know these characters are killers or rapists, but the "anime" looking characters tell everything from one glance at them. You wouldnt know that Jin caused WW3 by just looking at him, but someone like Lucky Chloe kinda tell you everything about them without needing to dig into the lore (You metion that it's just an act by Chloe herself, but most people dont wanna go through her arcade ending because they already hate her based off of 1st impressions). You wouldnt know that Ramlethal tried to kill everyone from just looking at her, she gives off a very "fetish-ised" aesthetic and that's your first impression of her. You might find Millia or I-No more approachable by their design, not knowing the former's an assassin and the latter is the Wild Card of the series. Hope that gave you some insight on how some might approach these characters.
@AT Productions yes but in this scenario of a normal match, the reaccion to loosing to them is different from the villain archetype when m bison wins it feels like a saturday morning cartoon villain winning and continuing their plan for world domination, which elicits a "damn i realy gotta get stronger to deafeat them" when this archetype wins its more of a, a random kid came and kicked your character's ass for no reason(and by extent you), which elicits a "THE AUDACITY OF THIS BITCH" it feels a lot more personal to be defeated by one of them than by m bison bc for m bison "its just another step in my plans"
In the case of Marie and Honoka, both debuted in DOA5 as DLC characters, thus never had a chance to get any character development til 6, and even then they're somewhat "main" characters of the story til - once again - the ninjas take center stage.
I think you hit the nail on the head with Lucky Chloe and Marie/Honoka, though I'm surprised you didn't mention how much Capcom Fighting Jam was disliked by the FGC at the time, and how it's pretty much the poster child of the dark age of Capcom's fighting games in the early/mid 2000's. I feel as though the hatred towards Ingrid is at least somewhat linked to that, what with her debuting in that game.
That's actually my central reason for not liking Ingrid. I remember buying Fighting Jam with so much excitement because it was finally a new 2D Capcom fighting game... and it played, looked, and felt awful and lazy. And then Capcom went dark for almost 10 years in the FG department. Ingrid was basically the mascot of the game with her being the only new face, so whenever I see her, all I remember is that disappointment. It's totally unfair and illogical, but it's where my brain goes with the character and why I cringe every time.
It definitely FEELS like people perceive she's a representative of one of the worst 2D Fighting game Capcom has ever produced, and as a result her inclusion in Alpha 3 MAX might've felt like an attempt to push this "rando OC" into the world of Street Fighter. Which is interesting because that means people gave her much more importance than she really had in the grand scheme of things. Like if she were to become a Mascot Character (Her lore could easily help with that belief as well as being the only character with non-imported sprites in Fighting Jam) that Capcom would push everywhere and include on everything when in reality... No, it was just a neat character concept they could use and got to finish.
Chloe was just... annoying to fight for a lot of reasons, and that really didn't help. Her Rage Art, which especially in low ranks gets spammed as soon as people get it, does more damage than other characters, which could lead to comebacks off an invincible reversal deleting most of someone's HP. Not so much of a problem at higher ranks where people can block, but for casuals, it's pretty annoying. She also just generally has a kit designed to steamroll new players. Lots of attacks that are very easy to perform and require more than the basic fundamentals of blocking to deal with. Again, not at all a problem at higher ranks. For casual players, she's obnoxious to deal with and deals way too much damage for how easy she is. For experienced players, her basic tricks don't work on them and she really has to work for her wins. Chloe's just kinda the perfect storm of being mechanically obnoxious and being hostile to a character the community adores. She's a fine addition to the game on her own merits, but handled pretty poorly as far as introductions go.
Considering the fact that 80% of Tekken online players are up to Genbu max, it is obvious that Chloe is a huge pain in the arse to the majority of Tekken players for no good reason. It is hilarious how much of an "online character" Lucky Chloe is
She's one of the harder characters to play in the game. I assure you not too many people hate her because they lose to her online. She's just so lame to the average Western audience. No real martial arts, not extraordinarily attractive, fucks over a fan favorite, etc.
Nah, as a lucky chloe hater i hated her since she got announced, her face is ugly af, her voice is ultra annoying, her fighting style is à joke, and she bully eddy..
@@drabnail777 - I think that's the point the video missed: it's _not_ just about their appearance. If they are annoying to play against, that's going to make a LOT f backlash that can spill into other aspects. "I hate Lucky Chloe" can mean "I hate how she acts," "I hate how she looks," "I hate playing as her" or "I hate playing against her," and anoy one of those negatives can bleed into the other, starting at "dang, she's annoying to fight" and developing into "I hate her very existence."
I actually didn't even know about Ingrid, Marie Rose or Honoka before seeing this video. Marie Rose in particular might actually get me interested in DOA, that fighting style sounds like amazing fun.
Anything Marie Rose can do in DOA, Helena, Christie, Brad Wong, or Leifang do better. She’s fun but not competitive in the slightest and doesn’t do damage. One of the worst characters consistently in DOA in both games.
funny enough my biggest problem with this video is just you saying that Alpha 3 MAX was on “okay port”. Bro it’s like the definitive edition of Street Fighter Alpha 3 out there! Only downside is it’s stuck on the PSP :(
in regards to Lucky Chloe, the difference is they all use actual martial arts and cant take 70% of your health on one of the most BS trolly move sets out there. Also it's just super annoying hearing lucky chloe say "wan, chu" every 6 seconds.
Not a single one of the names you mention are 'cute anime girls'. They're bad-asses with dynamite for muscles. I don't even play any of these games and I can totally see why people would be at least annoyed by a 90lb girl slapping around a 300lb muscleman as if that's even remotely possible.
@@WanArk86 Ash players are a myth, so lore, yeah. Partially because he stole Iori's powers and K's protagonist spot, partially (mostly) because they got baited by the cute white-haired girl in the cover actually being a cute white-haired boy and them being too weak to smash regardless.
I think that a lot of fans, when they're growing up, want their hobbies to "grow up" with them. Not just in fighting games, but anything that is or at one point was considered "kids' stuff"-- video games, comic books, anime, etc. They want to be able to still enjoy the thing they grew up enjoying, but also be taken seriously as an adult with mature and sophisticated tastes (in their own minds, anyway). I think this is a big reason why, for example, a lot of Smash players raged at the Pirahna Plant being added to Ultimate instead of, say, Dante or Goku or Shadow the Hedgehog. I spent a lot of my teens and early twenties in that "no fun allowed" mindset, and when a show or game I liked had something cutesy or jokey added into it, it drove me crazy, because it undermined my image of it being a Very Serious Game for Very Serious People.
"Why literal child are on a fighting game?" gave me a good laugh, but tbh imo, literally anything/one can be in a fighting game. You can play as a literal plant and completely obliterate Sephiroth in Smash
Smash is a different things altogether. (to be clear, I don't think there's that much of a issue with child in fighting game, depending on context, just that Smash isn't the best example).
@@curry94400 maybe but my point is imo anyone can be playable in a fighting game, somehow fighting games can just make it work. I guess a different example to use is Umbrella in Skullgirls, she is literally a child but i really love her moveset. Give a child a parasite umbrella thats also her friend and it they come out to be a pretty cool fighting game character.
I dunno, I play fighting games for the characters and when DOA6 came out I only ever saw 4 of them: Mila (who I played), Marie Rose, Honoka and Nico - who everyone else played for 70 or so matches. It made me quit, honestly, because I don't like them but was still forced to listen to their creepy squeals in a very lackluster game overall, but at the same time indicates that people do like them overwhelmingly. Reasonable response would be "don't like them - don't play them", but in this case you literally can't, unless you stay offline. I don't hat them, I just don't want to play the game because of them.
Lucky Chloe was the character that not only got me into tekken but was THE character that got me into fighting games, litterally her f4, 4 made me fall in love with the character and learn how to do combos and make me more and more interested in more games and the FGC as a whole and I'll be forever grateful to the dev team
@@Neco-Ico that's good. You do you she just grinds my gears. Her sfx. Her moves her fucking two handed fucking wave with those dumbass paw sleeves. Fuck that bitch...
I'll tell you my theory: these characters conflict with the person's head canon. Like most fighting games play fast and lose with the story right. It allows players to make up their own story, for any one of the obviously not main characters to be the star of the show. This is Ingrid especially. I know in many folks heads Street Fighter didn't have litteral gods involved, it was about Mortal men doing Mortal men things...that were possible in this universe. Things change in alpha where Akuma at first talks like he's a literal demon. Look up his Alpha 2 ending, it reads not like he's Gouken's brother but like he's a demon who came to our world to "perfect his killing power". I think that's what the problem is. These people have built up a story in their head over multiple games and the introduction of these characters takes them right out of it, because they can't/won't fit these newbies into their canon.
Able's character is of a man struggling with his own identity, whether he is truly himself or just a clone, atleast throughout sf4 up to sf5. In sf5 he seems more comfortable with him being "him" and not just a clone of bison, but he still has his moments of weakness. Part of the reason he comes off as an empty character with no "Personality" or backstory to speak of, is because he himself doesn't truly know who he is. He is a man with no Identity, trying to learn what, if any, identity lies beneath the surface of his own mind. A bit of extreme Dissociation, which he shows all of the symptoms of.
Counterarguments to points made above: Ingrid: True, there is no true cannon, so because of that, whatever cannon we might get from endings is seen as legit, even when they are not. Like, if stars aligned, here's how it went down. If they weren't following cannon, they would be interesting. So, while her defeating Bison isn't big of a deal, I think you missed another important point, she claimed Bison stole from her and was going to be punished for it. Together with her overall demeanor, it came across as if a Mary Sue, far stronger then a long established Big Bad with Eldritch Powers, was able to free the main character (devaluing the struggle Ryu went through) and kick Bison's ass while devaluing him as a threat, all the while having a personality that best be described "a bratty teen who takes herself too seriously". It overall made it that a character whose design just did not mesh well for the fanbase, storyline that tried to pass her off as The Hottest Thing Yet and have the cannon support her awesomeness. Of course, this is baring the mistranslations shenanigans. Lucky Chloe: Even without the bad character focus, she'd still be hated, at least in my opinion. Mainly cause her shtick isn't that funny or charming. "OH, but look at the small girl beating big people-" Xiaoyu, Alisa and Lili. "But imagine being beaten by idol-" Roger Jr and the Bears. It also doesn't help that Harada got too invested to go "haha I'll make it cannon, also Eddy gets shit. Even in the ending where HE wins." Marie and Honoka: Even if the characters are more popular and appear in games you don't care about, that's still fundamentally a Preferential Treatment. The fact that Tina, Lisa and Mira get shafted all together just leaves a sour taste in your mouth. Plus, characters whose sole creative motivation is to bait in more fans (not "draw" in, "bait" in) feels manipulative. Generally speaking, no, nothing is off the table for fighting games. But tactics that bait in more fans instead of actual characters will always be seen as inferior.
I get your points. Maybe that’s why there’s more hype towards a childhood hero character having a an appearance at n these games than one of those guy or girl characters with the “moe” like architecture or to what you described.
@@philithegamer8265 ? So you must be gay if you play a bunch of guy characters going by this logic. How about actually trying out the combos they have, more fun than that bland shit you probably play
@Will Diesel I can’t speak on Ingrid but, Tekken I was an eddy main but I wasn’t frustrated with him being replaced as long as I had someone with similar gameplay also step mix was fun to do. Marie isn’t someone I play but I can see appeal with the combos she can do. With Honoka is a mix of a lot of characters she’s like mokujin but she doesn’t switch every round. But hating characters for no reason is just stupid, it’s fine if they don’t interest you but they are there for others to enjoy
@Will Diesel Yea that’s understandable but nowadays characters like these aren’t set for a niche audience like back then you can use them however. Back in the old game’s characters severed one purpose to their archetype but now developers design them to be played how you like. A good example is Laura from sfv I personally hate grapplers but they made her a rush down with projectiles and cmd grab so she can fit what you like not sticking to the grappler that sits and waits for the perfect moment
@Will Diesel I’m not opposed to disliking characters but I feel people mostly hate fighting them instead of just trying each character each game changes how archetype can be played
Something I wanna point out here is that there's some serious sexist undertones about why people hate these characters. They are female characters who don't conform to fighting games stereotypes. The reason people don't "hate" Sakura is partly because of her inspiration from Ryu. The reason people don't hate Rose is because of her link with Bison. Women in fighting games need to be presented in a way that's not annoying and has a familiar fighting style. I don't see nearly as much hate for somebody like SF4's Rufus, who is a geniunely annoying character who is just jaded by Kens existence, than I see for Lucky Chloe.
The reason Sakura and Rose arent hated is because they actually have a storyline and aren't just the type of characters who were automatically perfect. And even then, Rose has some haters due to past balance issues. The entire joke with Rufus isn't that he looks out of place, its that he's always the butt of whatever joke there is, and even then, he's still very much hated. This has nothing to do with sexism, dude.
I can't say anything about the sexism (if there is any involved to begin with), but what I will say is Sakura and Rose are loved partly due to being legacy characters or having "legacy status" (there can be exceptions however), along with the fact that people in the FGC didn't have this weirdly but very noticeable case of cute aggression back then. And if they did, it wasn't nearly as bad as it is now. Literally May from Guilty back in the day was a very hated character (tho to be honest one reason was because of her dolphins and blanka ball attacks and vice versa). I seen many people go on saying "May sucks because it glorifies P word in games" or "anyone who likes her is a P word cuz SHES A CH!LD" even tho it's been implied she isn't. And now that May has "legacy status" you don't hear people hate on May as much. Since Xrd it's mainly been directed at The Valentines. Specifically Elphelt, who is also a cutesy girly character (tho this time she has tits so maybe it may not be for the same reasons. I don't know). Thing is I always noticed it's always the cute moe characters that get hated on with overwhelming intensity (along with just generally new characters. Especially if they are a new protag I noticed. Like Shun'Ei from King of Fighter 14, who i actually like with my only issue being his sweater cape). There are many reason why people do hate on girly cutesy characters, but there will always be that loud group of people who claim those characters are P word unless they have legacy status. Even then there will be exceptions (Like Athena in the King of Fighters games, who is actually a personal top favorite of mine). Not sure if it's a minority cuz in my experience it's p0retty common.
@@squidtheinconsistent But we also characters like C. Viper who is literally labeled, "Mrs. Perfect" in the Super Street Fighter 4 manual. And last I check she definitely earned that title since she's able to carry her job with ease, kick ass and take names, and has a daughter on top of that. And she is a very popular character last i checked too. Sometimes being the "perfect" character isn't always the problem cuz thing is sometimes those are characters who people can appreciate and strive to become. Even tho perfection among humans is not possible, it can still be admirable for trying. I'll be honest I don't know all of Viper's lore so if I'm missing anything or got some things wrong please fill me in. I also like to believe that's why people like Ingrid, we can consider her a Mary Sue (even tho i just found out form someone else in the comments her being the originator or original owner of the Psycho Drive/energy was a mistranslation issue), but thing is, she's just a joy to have around. She's elegant, has attitude, powerful (why? Could be naturally gifted, could have worked for that power behind the scenes, who knows), and just has a beauty one can appreciate. It's mainly about, their good qualities rather than about ":how perfect" they are. What I'm trying to say is just cuz a character may seem perfect doesn't mean they can't be liked for one reason or another if that makes sense.
@@etrotm1226 if that were the case, the very same qualities that make Ingrid so hated as a character wouldn't have made characters like Ash Crimson so controversial and hated when they debuted.
@@squidtheinconsistent I wasn't there when that happened cuz I wasn't an SNK fan til I was turning 13 many years ago. Which was like early 2009 lol. So I never knew Ash was hated (or at least not as much as I remember since Ash is a cool character in my opinion. And many people seem to have likes his return in KOF15). But anyway I never saw him as perfect tho. I like to believe they wrote Ash the way they did to show how threatening he is especially since he is (was now) an evil protagonist. And one we clearly will clash against eventually along the road especially during the events of KOF13 where he was starting to reap what he sow but that's just my two cents.
I don't really hate Chloe, I just think she's similar to Eddie in being very gimmicky and unsafe on Shields. I really don't know much or care about tekken Lore and she doesn't give me trouble online or anything, she's just kind of obnoxious for new characters. Definitely something you'd see online and not in high level competitive play.
@@coolkidsclub9943 I don't see how people can compare Chloe to Eddy. They have nothing in common except... they both dance? She isn't even a gimmicky character since she doesn't really have long strings or confusing movements like Eddy. I feel like people hate her design so much that they don't even bother to learn what she can do. With that kind of attitude even Kazuya could be considered a gimmicky character
@@DXYS95 When you sit down and play her she feels like boring Eddie gameplay and yes her to the rhythm style strings are fucking gimmicky as fuck my dude something Eddie also does but isn't annoying about it or as blatantly obvious
My Feedbacks on these characters (yeah I'm late): - Ingrid is a desperate attempt of Capcom to create their Athena from Psycho Soldiers/King of Fighters and she doesn't even try to look different - I honestly hope That Lucky will become more deep because she is cute and """"""fighting characters who use rhythm as major component""""""" is a rarity - I have no clue why people hate Marie Rose, maybe because she looks like a Loli? - The pink haired bimbo is just an excuse to introduce a 'mokujin' character in DoA. Mokujin fucking sucks.
@@13Kr4zYAzN13 Yup she's 100% just Ogre, they took what works well. Made her boringly cute the shit the JP side eats like it's crack yet the US side is weird about since the shit is do off hours would claim other wise. They love their cute shit too.
None of the reasons you gave explain the sheer disgust people from the communities show at the mere sight of these characters, imo. Also, yeah, Ingrid WAS kinda like a Capcom Athena, since Capcom All Stars was being developed by Ex-SNK devs and they introduced the code breakers trio as references to KoF.
I played alpha 3 max. I was much worse at fighting games at the time and had no clue who she was. I thought she was alright. one thing I love is that I've pretty much never heard someone say a character has 'no personality' and it turned out to be true. Usually the character's personality is boring, stoic, or one that's been seen a dozen times before but that is still a personality.
I'll say one good think about SFxT, it actually gave Able a real personality. Him being a cloudcucklander who loves animals and space aliens made me actually like him. Able now reminds me of Drax from the GotG films and that's awesome.
I can't even say they're hated. A lot of people like these characters, it's more accurate to say they're controversial I guess? And that's just because there are morale busy bodies who don't live and let live.
Pretty much, aye. And it's not even a mystery on why they're controversial themselves, just look at their renders and you can tell exactly what people might find annoying. Hell, I honestly dislike Lucky Chloe a fair bit but I do admit the outrage was rather ridiculous - like most character outrages out there. Except for D'vorah's. That was earned hatred.
If namco added bruce, ak or marduk before release, i wouldnt have give a shit about chloe. However paying for my fav charachters while this piece of shit coming with the game, pissed me off.
From what I've heard, people don't like Ingrid because she's "too anime". Which I guess means they think she's too moe and cutesy for Street Fighter. The cutesy characters tend to be the most hated on outside of actual anime fighters I've noticed, which is probably why those other 3 are hated as well. That said, I think there are far more people like Marie and Honoka then those that like Ingrid or Lucky.
It's weird because the "too anime" complaints are only directed to cute anime stuff, but badass anime stuff is fine. Like, are Oni, Asura, and Zeku not anime?
Isn't that, like, extremely broad though? "Too anime" that can applie to alot of things, especially fighting games. I believe "too cutesy" or even "too japanese" is what they mean without actually saying it
One character I despise is Patroklos in Soul Calibur 5. When they revealed him I wasn't that fond of his design, seemed like he was just hyper focused on looking flashy but not adding anything new to the game. But I didn't care that much to begin with, I usually don't play the sword and shield characters. However when I finally got to play the game I learned to absolutely hate him. The story mode was completely focused on him and his sister Pyrrha, none of the other new characters got any real spotlight, Zwei and Viola definitely deserved more than what they got. It didn't help that the story was pretty bad, but how they depicted Patroklos as a true hero and such was complete BS. He was an complete idiot at best and an awful human being at worst. He was moaning and complaining that he lost his sister long ago and would do anything in his power to find her and spend his life with her and such. He finds her and she, for some reason, is a complete outcast and isolated from society. They are happy and joyful for maybe a day or so until he finds out she's been hanging out with a bad crowd, servants of Soul Edge like Tira because they were the only people in the world that at least pretended to giva a crap about her. After Patroklos, our hero, found that out he, like everyone else, abandoned his long lost and beloved sister, leaving her to be swallowed up by sadness, isolation and get corrupted by Soul Edge. Patroklos, our great hero, again starts complaining that he misses his sister and then realizes that his beloved sister Pyrrha now turned into pretty much a demon that only wants to destroy everything and now he must defeat her. As far as I can remember never once in the story do they emphasize that he is the reason why everything is messed up, he is always portrayed as the great hero that will save everyone, when he should've been the villain. Especially considering the awful things he did. Patroklos just sucks, everything he did just made me hate him even more. Before the shit-show with his sister he just ran around and murdered countless people because some rich dude told him to and for some reason he was convinced that he was a hero or something. Naiveté only goes so far until you simply are an idiot. If you've read this far, thanks! Now you know why me and many other Soul Calibur fans absolutely hate Patroklos. P.S. Not gonna lie, Patroklos' and Pyrrha's theme song "Home is Faraway" is really nice, so why not give it a listen.
Yeah my best bet. People tried to copy past Jin and Noel from Blazblue into SoulCalibur. But wanted to make it reverse. Where Jin is heroic sibling while Noel is antagonistic sibling. Their story honestly feels like a bad fanfiction of blazblue fan. Plus it didn’t help that those two kinda took over roles and story that was given to their Aunt and Mom, which people wanted to see conclusions to. They probably be more accepted if they didn’t were written by better author and if they didn’t interrupt story that most fans were invested with.
I read your 500 word essay and I have to agree. Not just because adding meter to soul calibur was dumb but also cuz he outright doesn't even feel good as a sword and shield character. Which surprise he was a filthy setsuka main the whole time
Yeah, Soul Calibur 5 having discount ripoffs of their own characters was a really odd choice. At least MK 10's "Kombat Kids" weren't outright replacements for the originals.
@@electronsympathy Jacqui kinda was Jax-lite (at least, moreso than the others), but she wasn't anywhere near the worst character from MKX *coughD'Vorahcough*
"why are there literal children in a fighting tournament?" Athena- Hold my psycho ball. Also, doesn't Tekken canonically have a fucking panda taking part in the fighting tournament? What is a literal panda doing in a fighting tournament?
Panda >>>>>>>> Lucky Chloe. And I even didn't play as panda/kuma. I really prefer to see a Mokujin or something like this on Chloe model with "mute mod".
as someone who's researched way too much tekken lore, off the top of my head Heihachi (host of most? tekken tournaments) was really impressed by this one girl's fighting skill (Xiaoyu) so he gave her a panda bear that was a trained fighter (he owned a pet grizzly bear Kuma so this wasn't totally out there, i forgot if both bears had a genetic experimentation explanation or if they're just "really smart") Panda (yes the panda's name is Panda) often enters tournaments for the sake of Xiaoyu and for her own good, but as for why she's allowed in the tournaments i would place it entirely on Heihachi being biased
Also, Auska and Lili are teens. And a wooden man, a scientist with an arthritis problem, and boxing raptor. Tekken is absurd, and thats what makes it fun.
As someone who mostly knows these characters by reputation, one thing that strikes me is that they largely seem to lack moments where they take the fall, or even just slide back from being On. Like, I think of Karin in SF, a character who seems reasonably well liked...but I'm not sure she would be without the humanizing element of her story with Sakura. The fact that the big Heiress Of A Top Zaibatsu stuff falls away and she becomes a bit more of a regular person with Sakura around helps make them both *work.* So would giving these characters more of a chance to just...*relax*, around people they regard as equals, be enough to make them more beloved?
Honoka isn't hated as much as marie rose. That's because marie, and lucky chloe are very very annoying, both in their playstyle and the way they behave in their intros and outros. They were designed in a way to flip off their opponents and trolling them. Another reason they are hated is because they behave in childish manner and are below 18. Admitting to like them will get you called pedo, so the minority who like them will also stay silent.
@@edgelord121 well i like both. their cute, i like cute stuff and i like both play characters in playstyle (although my main in DoA is Mila, cuz her MMA stuff is fun and to me she's the hottest of the roster)
Analyzing these characters and their design patterns leave me with a conclusion that a portion of the FGC hate their designs because it resembles cute E-girls.
8:45 Pretty much nobody got a real story in this game because the tournament was canceled, which kinda sucks TBH (at least half of them are not canon). I also feel the need to mention the more serious role that Chloe plays in the canon. She's an idol/pop star who works for G Corp which holds power in much of multimedia around the world and they use Chole as an influencer. Talk about breaking the 4th wall.
I played SFA3M, myself, alongside Capcom Fighting Jam. Pretty much what I feel for Ingrid, personally, is interest. I want her to be able to actually have her own game for once and actually be fully fleshed out. I have no clue why Capcom kept her around just to relegate her largely to crossovers, cameos, and guest appearances without actually ever giving her her own game or actually fleshing her out.
At least you're honest about it. Be True to yourself, King. Personally, I still find fighting her frustrating, though. Keeps crushing all my grabs and evading my frame traps just by attacking.
I think I hate Honoka and Marie Rose for the same reason, it makes me uncomfortable when someone says Kasumi was aged up to 18 in the US or when an anime has an 1000 yr old dragon that looks like a kid. I feel like I'd like them a lot more if they were in Tekken or Street Fighter, but it feels really weird to see little girls in DOA, even if they're not technically kids.
I was introduced yo Ingrid through Project X Zone 2 and thought she was neat. Had no idea until later that apparebtly people hated her and I didn't understand why.
The first thing I’ve ever seen of Marie Rose is the gameplay of her kicking the asses of people twice her size, while climbing around them like they’re goddamn jungle gyms, I think she’s my favorite DoA character now, although I haven’t really gotten into the series as a whole yet.
The amount of hatemail I get playing Alisa is ridicolous. And the community is divided on it, some actively hates her, calling her broken, and cheap, which makes no sense from a gameplay perspective, but people still keep on hating, just because.
@@LortOfTheStones Christ that’s crazy. I just got back in tekken and bought a few characters... how is alisa broken, I tried noctis and holy hell that man is broke
While I would never describe these characters as "ruining fighting games", I don't think they are exactly good designs either? So I feel the dislike can be understandable if they are seen as bad designs that don't feel like they mesh with the established cast's cohesion. Frankly I have had this issue with most of SFV and KoF XIV's newcomers that tend to feel too cartoony or too lazily designed. As for those mentioned in the video, I think Ingrid would have worked fine in a KoF or Rival Schools style game, but in SFA3 her moves felt super out of place, and the fact that she was a newcomer who was said to have this godlike power that came out of nowhere didn't help. I feel the reason Lili works while Lucky Chloe doesn't for me personally, is while Lili is also a very feminine fighter, her classy and stylish ballet kicks feel like they would hurt like hell and can make you buy something as impractical as ballet as a martial art. On the other hand, Lucky Chloe is hitting you with gloved cat paws, and her kicks feel like a lazy ripoff of Eddy Gordo. Plus it is really annoying how she takes an established veteran in the series like Eddy into a complete joke in both his and her story modes for a cheap attempt at humor (like how Gang-il reduces Kim Kaphwan into a whiny loser). As for Honoka I have no issues with her design since she fits her series just fine, but I find her use of other character's moves super lazy especially for a relatively recent character.
I remember friends disliking Ingrid because she felt like a KoF ripoff. And in that sense I kind of agree, she kind of feels like a low effort mash up of Athena Asamiya and Kula Diamond. Personally, I hate that we never got a decent release of alpha 3 Max. To this day I have no idea if she's actually any good.
To be fair, considering what I've from Thorgi's Arcade video on that game, your friend might have been right ? The director of that game hailed from SNK and had worked on KoF, and apparently there was another Code Holder in her original game who was pretty much a copy & paste of K' from KoF.
I imagine its both the fact that all of them escapes from the 'tone' of the roster (most the fighters are male or very beautiful women) and a general fatigue/hate/distain of the kawai and idol anime characters have gained over the years in the west. On that note, Sakura from SF works because she is not fighting and trying to be cute: she wants to get better at martial arts. That creates empathy to the player, who wants almost the same thing: to get good in the game (she being a combo-friendly version of ryu helps on the popularity).
This is the belief that I've been holding as well. Most of the fighting game community don't really like cute anime, and the only "acceptable" anime is if it's something like Dragonball. It's not even a current year thing, either. The King of Fighters series has been going on for years and yet Athena is still hated by many despite being a mainstay character. When it comes down to it, it really is that most of the fighting game community really hates kawaii anime girls, and that the ones that do like them are seen as weirdos.
@@zerosyaoran Athena is hated because of her voice and spammy moveset, not because of her design. A better example would be Kula, who is also an kawaii anime girl but they made her much more likeable
Thank you for this video. I personally like these types of characters (Ingrid specifically), and I do not quite understand the hatred for them. It's nice to see the echo chamber break and someone bigger actually question why people think the way they do.
![[Live] : ONE FIGHT NIGHT 26 วันนี้!! “คริสเตียน vs อาลิเบก”](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/UlIiZ3t8nHQ/mqdefault.jpg)
I clicked on this anticipating a discussion of wildly overpowered characters, not learning that apparently the Fighting Game Community suffers from Cute Aggression.
It really does
@@MagillanicaLouM not really lots of cute characters are well loved it's not the character trope that bothers people
It's all down to cultural differences, really. Idol culture isn't a thing in the west so characters that represent that looks weird and is generally not accepted.
Not gonna lie, I thought I was gonna see a discussion about their in game skillset abuse, and such... and I'm lowkey disappointed by the entirety of the video. Especially with the conclusion being a not-so thought provoking question.
There's no doubt that most people thag like fighting games, like them because they're not anime tropey "cutesy" "UwU" vibe games. So inviting those characters into the roster will gain natural detest. That's just obvious. Asking why is..weird..to me.
But the fact he overlooked their actual performance in the game, and how that adds to the feedback is a total letdown. I cant speak for Ingrid, or Lucky Chloe, but I can say... I've seen more stigma against Marie Rose and Honoka players rather than the characters... and only complaints of the characters by proxy.
Marie Rose is inconsistent in personality, not lacking in it. Honoka has no defined personality beyond being innocent and oblivious, ie childlike. So to see her use these OP "cool" moves and in spamming methods is off putting. It goes against her brand as childish and suddenly she's a pro powerhouse, specifically one that's annoying to fight. That creates a big disdain for the playerbase.
Marie Rose also has a generally aggravating moveset that also can be used to trigger the player-- and ruin their setups etc in an instant.. and she has one of the worst(best?) infinite loops in the game. You take that into account with a dry personality-- and inconsistent storyline and she's naturally gonna be disliked by seasoned players as well.
Not to mention the general dislike that tbe characters are "child like" and sexualized to a point that it's SLIGHTLY uncomfortable. There's just not a lot of room for them to be liked.
(Which was also overlooked in this video.)
I can see why people dislike Marie Rose, I can see people being annoyed by honoka personality wise...but sheeeeeesh. FIGHTING THEM?😂 It's a rage cesspool waiting to be built...and likely the true base of most detestment. Which is something I've heard about Chloe too.
Never heard the term Cute Aggression, but I think I'm definitely gonna remember it.
Plenty in the FGC like or are at least neutral to cute things sure, but there's definitely some sort of intense backlash like hate at this particular flavor of cute. It usually seems to be the...I guess audacity of a character like that appearing in anything outside of somewhere where its expected to stay like Blazblue or Melty Blood. I can at least understand that, not finding it fitting the tone of a game, but some of the rage seems to get really...dramatic. Before people even knew what Cloe's moveset was, I remember some people absolutely lost their shit at the character even existing. And in Ingrid's case its especially weird since like the video said, she didn't even come from a completed game to even ruin. Maybe it's a bit of a Scrappy effect? Like people thought the character was being pushed too much?
None of these characters are really my cup of tea either but I don't entirely get what warrants the level of rage I see sometimes.
"This character is bad because they beat the main villain on their arcade mode" has to be the funniest reason to hate a fg character.
Guess we should hate every character in the roster then.
"Man, I just want a character with a shit moveset and no talent. I feel so underrepresented"
~Beta cucks, probably
That guy must kept forgeting joke characters then
The most obivious, dan
Not gonna lie, I always held it against liu kang for how often he was winning tournaments in canon.
His story just didn't feel as interesting as some of the other endings.
From what I heard and saw in this video, it's not that Ingrid simply _beat_ Bison. It's that she made a complete and utter joke out of him, made Psycho Power (you know, the thing that defines Bison as a threat) out to have been something he _stole_ rather than it being given to or earned by him, and then just kinda left to make a joke out of good ol' MC Ryu too. And probably did off-screen, simply because she's Ingrid and she's awesome.
"Why literal child are on a fighting game? they dont belong here"
-Tekken with fucking bears fighting on the distance-
Rogger was the only victim
Bears, kangaroos, velociraptors with boxing gloves, wooden dummies...
Don’t mind me, just watching a little t-Rex creature fight off a Mayan God before it transforms into a giant chimera.
Then I’ll watch an overweight fat man who is more agile than most of the cast fight off a giant crystal monster before he suddenly loses all his weight in his ending.
The logic of Tekken bounces in all directions. Isn’t that right Prime Minister of the Republic of Poland who practices Karate?
>a fun fighting animal born out of creative energy vs a little girl who has their entire personality and design be based around being cynical, tsundere loli bait
Gentlemen.....
Gamers are smart
Every time the " doesn't belong in " argument is made, a certain defense attorney sneezes.
OBJECTION!!!!🤔🤨🧐
I spy a contradiction.🤔🤨🧐
That sounds like an Easter egg message in a game
And gets a TOD off of it.
@@thunderstudios1211 Phoenix Wright is in one of the Capcom vs Marvel games
“Tekken is a serious franchise”
*literally has a playable panda and a bear
literally has a playable bear *that becomes the president of a company and was taught martial arts*
And kangaroo, dinosaur and a walking training dummy
to be fair, in real life they would rip everybody to shreds.
@@maximnoginov2974 Not the panda.
@@jacobfoxfires9647 yes, even Panda.
And yes, Tekken is a serious fighting game - Kuma, Panda and Roger were always auxiliary trolling characters who never had anything to do with the main story.
MK on the other hand, apparently finds it disgusting to dress women in ‘bikinis’ a.k.a. their original costumes. You can cut them in half, but god forbid you do it while they’re wearing their original outfits - you pervert!
Seeing how Tekken is a "serious franchise" that embraces absurd humor makes me wish for a Yakuza crossover even more.
Yakuza manages to be funny and serious at the same time. Tekken fails at both. I always feel like I'm laughing at Tekken, not with it.
@@billvolk4236 I think it's because the serious stuff in Yakuza is actually well-written with great characters meanwhile Tekken always been about throwing your son/dad off a cliff, trying to kill your family, devil genes that have a different origin when it feels like it, a ton of retcons to the point that 7 had Akuma popping out of nowhere and being a canon character that was around all this time but didn't do shit, it's pretty bad
That and the silly stuff in Yakuza is mostly kept for the side-stories/minigames so it's not too jarring
@@Igneeka Maybe Tekken only works in Japan because at its heart it's about how taboo it is to hate your family. In the west it's weird if we *don't* hate our parents and/or our kids.
It really is the perfect match that never happened.
@The Tyro of Toriyama Tekken is better when it makes sense.
The reason people aren't upset with Law and Paul is because they started with serious lore beats and when people were debating who unknown was and if Heihachi was dead the first time, Tekken was fun storywise.
I think the best thing about Tekken is that you have all these separate story arcs going on simultaneously.
You have Eddie's story about his father, you have Hworang's story about fighting with Jin, you have the big overarcing Mishima story, and my favorite, the King story.
I'll bring up Yakuza because it's the one series I feel does the goofy and serious tones of Tekken right: 1) Make serious characters 2) Make a serious story 3) Make non-serious stories 4) Make joke characters.
I love for them to actually give Lucky Chloe a story and personality outside of just being annoying. I think main characters have to have a serious air to latch onto.
"why are there literal children in a fighting tournament?"
May : happily and casually smacks a dude with an anchor
Yeah. That's interesting. I never hated May. Probably because she looks cool and isn't an idol. (That's not a sarcasm, I just tried to see why I like May and dislike Chloe. I hated Bridgette though, even when I thought he was a girl).
@@StanNotSoSaint i _love_ bridgette
Ness: Okay!
Young Link: {chugs Lon Lon Milk}
Pichu: Pichu~!
Kirby: Hi~!
To be fair, May is actually 20ish despite her childish looks. An Dizzy, despite her womanly looks is somewhere between 5 and 8... depending on which GG you play.
"You can't just keep spamming dolphin."
"Haha Totsugeki"
I think the problem is in losing to "kawaii girl" character. It hurts your pride, maybe even unconsiously.
I don't think that's it, fighting games in general have plenty of cute characters who are popular.
It's the specific type of characters they are.
Pride? It's a dam videogame, if you no longer think highly of yourself after losing to Lucky Chloe than you may have some mental illness you might want to address before too late.
sounds way to sin of Pride to be general, As me myself wouldn't feel all that insulted at all since I know If someone can kick ass they can kick ass no matter how "cute" they are.
I believe its more a personal thing that depends on you, I Like marie rose she's very Impressive and enternating as a character and does Belong.
If that were the case then I imagine Sakura would be higher on peoples dislike list
@@alexcat6685 Well said.
"They're too anime!" said the person playing a japanese video game heavily influenced by anime
The only anime that's accepted is stuff like Dragonball. Cute is not allowed.
@@zerosyaoran What era you and your ideals from? The 1960's?
@@Lethargy514 it's just something I noticed, what with how Dragonball was easily welcomed and yet anyone had to hide the fact that they watched Sailormoon or else they'd be bullied.
@Basil Basildon There's plenty of anime and media in general featuring both cute and badass characters. Hell, I don't know about Fist of the Northstar but there are characters in both Jojo and Sailor Moon that I would consider being both cute and badass. They're not as mutually exclusive concepts as people make them out to be.
I just find it funny how so many in the fgc are so insecure and afraid of being labeled weebs that they feel the need to deny what kind of games they're playing.
I think the problem is that they're too trope-y.
I think the dislike for Ingrid is orders of magnitude smaller than the one for the other characters. I didn't even know the community hated her, just like, was passively annoyed at her.
So is Choi from KOF. No one complains about giant characters because muh hitboxes.
Ok but wouldn't that be more because like f-zero she's not in any new games and won't be. Hating something is an active thing you have to do. Because she's hated Capcom would never put her in anything else. Because she's not in anything but ports from 20 years ago whos going out of their way to hate her. Really you were just born to late to know that said the fact that it did spark people who remember to immediately go into a frenzy, again 20 years later, implies she is pretty hated
Personally I can't stand Ingrid due to her being written like a terrible fanfic and with how the writing and presentation can't stop sucking her off. Like even if you take A.B.I.s statement on Alpha you also need to consider that Ingrid was also presented as casually shitting on Pyron.
The constant boasting of just "oh she's so powerful even if Ingrid gets double perfected she's just holding back" is super annoying. Mind you that this is a treatment nobody else in the entire franchise, no matter how strong, ever gets. Akuma for instance is rivaled or arguably surpassed by Ryu, Oro, Gen, etc. and his win quotes and presentation never indicate that he just casually slaps everyone else even if in-story he is definitively stronger than most of the cast. Akuma has to put in work instead of just "being magic."
If you put Ingrid in some fantasy anime fighting game like Arcana Heart or BlazBlue she'd be more of a natural fit but in Street Fighter she doesn't fit in at all. I'd still find her character and presentation insufferable but at least it wouldn't be entirely out of place. Even Oni felt kinda strange in the setting and that was an established character built on established lore, not some random schoolgirl who happens to use "the true Psycho Power" and is so much more powerful than everyone else that even if she loses she just "let them win."
@@Zetact_ Ingrid doesn't claim to be the true wielder of Psycho Power, that is a mistranslation. In her story in Alpha 3 has her trying to reclaim one of her crests which Bison stole from her and is using to power the Psycho Drive. Also, when was Ingrid portrayed as holding back even when she losses? Sure Ingrid's win quotes have her messing with her opponent or being cocky, plenty of characters in Street Fighter do that.
Also, Akuma generally does get wanked to high heaven in Street Fighter. He is pretty much THE measuring stick when it comes to power. One of his most iconic moments has him slap Bison's shit even faster than Ingrid.
@@Zetact_ You do know that powerlevels do not matter in determining whose character is better at the game or more likeable?
I play Sakura and Asuka innT7 and there is no possible scenario where they can beat most of the cast in canon.
You discussing tekkens tone made me realize thats a big part of why i like it. Its like one piece or monster hunter, the seriousness/drama go hand in hand with the absurdity and quirky shit. I really love it
Why yes, let me just eat this bone-in steak mid battle with a dinosaur to stop heavy bleeding
@@naomisisk4663 dont be silly, steaks are for running. If you want to stop bleeding you're looking for jerky 👍🏾
I wish I could drink milk to heal my bones and teeth in real life.
6:04 Ironic considering the name of the guy demanding she be removed is called Hsu Hao, a name shared by a Mortal Kombat character who fans believe to be one of the worst in the series.
even midway declared him the worst
he even dies in his own ending...
@@ryszakowy Followed by Eron's intro dropping his head on the floor...and Kung Lao being called Hsu Hao as an insult.
hsu hao is the only good mortal kombat character actually
@@soulsparx based and hsu hao pilled
hsu hao
Even Hsu Hao is better than those Lolicon chars made for bronys
What main story in tekken 7? You fight goons and then Kazuya throws his dad in a volcano.
yeah that's the tekken main story, The Mishima's repeatedly trying to kill each other and throwing each other off or into things.
@@umbranassassin8372 The typical Tekken story, I don't hate it neither, it's pretty epic
Dude, spoilers!!
Nah, just kidding, I was never going to finish that garbagefire.
@@iisanulquiorrahara8 Jokes aside, when don't Mishima's throw each other into volcanos, or off cliffs, or out of helicopters... or into space?
A properly told Tekken story should have some of the craziest shit ever, would make JoJo spit its tea.
Speaking of main stories getting hijacked by characters who don't belong there, why the fuck is the Tekken 7 story all about Akuma?
Yeah the hate for Ingrid is something that I always grew up hearing about but never heard a reason for WHY. Which is hilarious on it's own
Appearance aside, I think people had more of a hissy fit over Ingrid cancelling out Ryu's Dark Hadou than anything else in SFA3Max.
Me? Ingrid's a good way to get my attention, much like any time Linn Kurosawa's ever brought up.
The funnies part is that when it comes to the Psycho power claims, it's all based on a mistranslation of the events of the story. Ingrid doesn't actually claim to be the owner of Psycho Power.
@@egxtra The thing about that is, Ryu wasn't being controlled by the Dark Hadou, he was being controlled by Bison who used the Psycho Drive to mind control him.
@@CometX-ing What was the original translation, then? Cause I don't seem to find it anywhere.
@@CometX-ing mistranslation can be LETHAL
XD
I have no issue with Lucky Chloe. Why? Cause I like to play as a Luchador wearing a jaguar mask that snarls and roars in order to communicate. Who am I to deny somebody the chance to play as cat-eared idol?
Same, but I like playing as an overdressed robot girl who can detach her head and hand it to her opponent to use as a live bomb, so I have no room to crap over a comparably believable girl in a cat outfit breakdancing.
Thank you for accepting the existence of me and my kind. Now excuse me while I take 70 percent of your life bar 🙂.
@@JAnne_Bonne Like seriously, Alisa is more weebish than Lucky Chloe to the point of even speaking Japanese and it's the latter that gets called moe shit lol.
I don't play tekken, but I've heard her moveset is kinda trolly and annoying to fight against, especially at low-mid elo.
@@monchete9934 Lucky Chloe speaks japanese too, but only says numbers in english.
"Nooo you can't put joke characters in my serious fighting game, it ruins the LoRe"
well tough luck buddy, at least you don't have to deal with goddamn SNK Heroines being CANON
I mean, you got to see another sexy Terry, what's the deal?
@@cameronsmith9562 SNK Heroines Terry was more of a downgrade compared to the original
Honestly who cares if it's canon? The game took place in a dream world anyway so it doesn't ruin anything.
@@revolvingworld2676 Yeah idk why many people hate when fg devs decide to do something wacky,cute,different or similar with their worlds it keeps them fresh and adds a lot
Imagine giving a shit about the story in a fighting game
I find it hiliariously ironic that a twitter user called "Hsu Hao" thinks Lucky Chloe is a trash character
"Will Tsu Hao return? Probably not." To be fair, he only came back because everyone was there.
Reminder that John Vogel was not dismayed at bringing Hsu Hao back because he disliked him, it was because it meant he had to retcon the previous story element of Jax catching and killing him, which if you're writing long running story series, is always a pain in the ass when you have to backpedal on the writing of a previous entry.
@@legionbeast Oh okay.
@@billyj.causeyvideoguy7361 Characters aren't killed off all that often in MK. In fact no real deaths happened that were explicit until Deadly Alliance, unless you count killing Hanzo in MK Mythologies Sub Zero.
I love Harada's absolute power move of just replying "I'll remove you" to that
If Faust can be in a fighting game, anything goes at that point for me lol.
time to give u a afro and make that ur hurtbox so i can do instant overheads rofl
Phoenix Wright is literally a fighting game character. Anything is actually possible.
He's very funny :)
Wise words , Beard Dandy
Voldo **
One thing to point out about Ingrid in Alpha 3 Max is that her arcade story contains a bit of mistranslation; The actual story goes is that Bison (somehow) stole Ingrid's seal (the two gold hair caps she wears on her head) and used it to power his psycho drive, and Ingrid goes to get it back.
She's not claiming to be the true owner of psycho power.
TYPOS ARE *5EVRR*
XD
Damn, Ingrid being the progenitor of psycho power was actually a badass concept ngl. We never actually get to see stuff like psycho power or the Satsui no Hado get an origin story, weirdly enough.
People seem to have forgotten that Tekken has always been an absurd game. I'll never forget the first time me and my friends saw Tekken 1 way back then. We thought of it as that weird Japanese fighting game with a robot samurai, a bear, a guy with a leopard head, and a purple guy. It also gave us this strange Japanese game-show feel.
But saying that doesn’t work, it’s because you don’t really see that in the real world.
PURPLE GUY???
@@epicgamer-ny4fj Devil Kazuya
Right, so I’m genuinely confused why that’s so hard for a lot of people to grasp. Tekken itself is a Japanese media franchise, so the fact that it’s mainly a lot of people in the west swearing up and down that Lucky Chloe ruins the franchise and demanding her removal is hilarious. I don’t play Lucky Chloe, but I do hope she returns to Tekken 8 as part of the story to trigger a lot of SJWs, and neckbeards amongst the western audience. Plus, I highly doubt Harada would give her the axe just because she’s a weeboo.
@@smok3ywuff784 Right. I genuinely don’t understand why people, mainly the west keep trying to gatekeep video games.
In defense of Abel lacking personality it’s a part of his character that he doesn’t have an identity. I think it’s fitting to have the man who struggles with who he is to have no personality since he hasn’t found it yet.
He's an android
I...like actually like Abel and don't think he has no personality, it kind of feels like he's just someone really trying to find himself.
I like the direction SFxT was taking him as a goofy cloudcucklander. If he had a better design, I wouldn't mind if he showed up as DLC for SF5.
@@XxLast__BossxX he is the same as cammy so there is room for him to develop
@@AbstractTraitorHero exactly my point he hasn’t found who he is yet , that’s why they push the lost dog symbolism in his ultra ending
so the short versions are...
Ingrid: hated by exactly six extremely loud people for a reason no one remembers anymore
Lucky Chloe: hated by people who take the game with the literal kung fu panda way too serious
Marie Rose and Honoka: Roman Reigns heat
Hokoka was just copying KoF's Yuri Sakazaki's gimmick of using other people's movesets
@@budgiecat9039 Every fighting game has some form of that, so its kinda unfair to say she’s copying KoF
@@The_Max1m Not really. I mean we can use Dural from VF, Shang Tsung from MK sure but theyre not the same ditsy girl trope that knows everyones moves that Yuri started
Guess Marie Rose and Honoka are the head of the table in DOA 🤣
@@bodycountplays2915 Well considering Dead or Alive 6 was Dead on Arrival...not much a of table left there anyways
I think it boils down to the general stigma of cute girls doing cute things. People are more than willing to have female fighters since they often share masculine tropes for the simple fact of being fighters in the first place. Being sexy comes as a bonus. However, having cutesy fighters kinda crosses the line for the "HARDCORE" slice of the FGC since the archetype for the most part reject the typical sexy or strong tropes of a female fighter. This is why DOA fans have little to say against Ayane despite being younger than Marie or Honoka.
That is a pretty well thought out idea. I still think people are being silly. But i can kind of grasp this as a reason.
@@Lazrael32 Well, most of the complainers are mostly annoyed by them. 90%+ of the FCG don't really give a shit about cutesy characters as long as they are fun.
Dead or Alive 5 and 6 being rough at launch probably didn't help. Honoka probably would have gone unnoticed if Marie Rose wasn't so pandering alongside Last Round getting absurd amounts of costume DLC
These character tropes are too anime for these games. But i personally don't mind them at all as soon as they play good, and they all do.
Well said. And I think it's even harder for a lot of people to accept the idea of cute girls trashing the more serious characters in a match. I'm not part of the hate train: I was one of those who did play Capcom Fighting Evolution, but I wasn't interested to use Ingrid as there were better cast choices. I simply didn't know enough about her to want to use her, much less hate her.
Marie Rose is a breath of fresh air to a franchise where most of the females are associated w/ jiggle physics, and has become one of my favorites. But since DOA has a reputation of being a titillating series, her "underaged" design tends to make certain people uncomfortable. As for Honoka, I personally find her very generic as an addition to the roster since she's a top heavy schoolgirl whose moves are from the other characters of the game.
Their both 18 and some of the costumes with the physics just makes me disappointed in tecmo and team ninja
@@lycheeax They're both supposed to be 18, and the jiggle physics barely matter w/ Marie.
@@jp3813 I know it’s just cuz their both a bit young also I knew it didn’t matter as much with Marie I was mainly talking about honoka with like her “biker” costume
I got mixed up with 18 and 16 because I’ve been playing more tekken
@@ProjectTaker At this point in the franchise, Eliot's still the youngest followed by NiCO, Ayane, Marie Rose, & Honoka. All of whom are 18 years of age. However, Eliot & Ayane both debuted in the previous games at age 16.
If there is one person in this website who's willing to have a genuine, polite and sane discussion about this subject, it's definitely Majikura/ABI
well. 2 people
W cm I'm
@@Lee-fw5bd That's what "they" want you to think.
@@magicno2 I've been thinking about this as well.
Their voices are nigh identical. We sure they ain't the same guy?
Same. Just about every conversation regarding Tekken and DOA has turned toxic in the comment section.
After the Lucky Chloe backlash, I, a man in his late 20s at the time. Picked her up a launch and played ranked for awhile. I genuinely think she's fun and I was hoping when people lost to me they got more upset. I do think its a "cute girl in fighting game" thing.
Just Loli bait for Weeaboos.
@@philithegamer8265 sometimes, but some people love the whole "not what they seem" deal. Lucky Chloe looks like a girl who would rather listen to music, rollerskate, and shop. But shes actually a strong fighter, and some people love the "looks weak, but isnt" type. Talim, from Soul Caliber, also fit this by being tiny as hell, but made up for it with blazing speed and mix ups.
That was Shinnok in MK10 for me. Everybody hated losing to him for some reason. I mean sure he's a little spammy, but he's far from the worst in terms of spam.
I don't think so either since no one complains about Xiaoyu.
@@hellfrozenphoenix13 really? people see Talim as weak? she screamed "dedicated to the art" to me. like Sakura in Street Fighter, not as strong as their teachers but still very capable in most situations.
For the record, I want to say that I love Lucky Chloe, and the idea of eternal edgelord scumbag Kazuya having an insanely cutesy over-the-top Idol who never turns off the cheer running his PR is *fucking hysterical* and it's criminal we haven't seem them interact in-game
That's one of the things I don't like about Chloe. It just doesn't add up. She would have have done better being the face of the Violet Girls for Lee's Violet Systems.
@@leonlegend Maybe G Corp just pays more. She does act like her cutesy idol schtick is a job to her.
@@zerosyaoran I'm saying G Corp should not be interested at all. If Lucky Chloe wasn't a bitch behind the scenes in the first place, you wouldn't have that idea at all.
I'm basicly saying a character re-write. Maybe you like that, maybe not. It's just a thought.
(Sorry if I come off sounding like a know-it-all prick. I can't think of another way to word that)
@@leonlegend G-corp is interested in everything. They're like 30% or more of the worlds economy.
@@leonlegend meh it's like amazon launching a v-tuber in japan, very believable scum PR tactic, play to idol culture
"why are these literal children in a fighting tournament"
so we forgot about the trope of having _actual_ school girls running fades with martial artists?
Arcana Heart?
Was never a good trope
@@spicymeatballs2thespicening and yet, it generates a ton of characters that people like. Sakura being one such example. Sure, you hate the trope and that is fair. But many people love it and that is also fair.
@@hellfrozenphoenix13 Heheha at this time Sakura is one of those 25yo japanese women that buy school uniforms wanting high school days to never end.
@@spicymeatballs2thespicening what makes it a bad trope to you?
Tekken has an actual bear who goes into space at one point. I don't think my immersion can ever be challenged with Tekken
In one game.. Xiaoyu's ending had her use her winning money to fund a time machine, intending to go back in time and prevent Heihachi from throwing young Kazuya into the volcano, but when it appeared it hit Heihachi and directly caused him to throw Kazuya into the volcano..
Yeah and two wood men
A monket and a dog has been sent in space before.
The part about tekken made me realize that Miguel will probably be a joke character from now on :(
God, pls no.
I don't think there are any real "joke" characters in Tekken, aside from endings shenanigans. Law and Paul still look badass during the match, it's not like they're crying and falling over themselves like, say, Dan.
@@bennymountain1 yeah but still they should be taken serious in there story part. They've been comic reliefs for for a long time now especially paul and in tekken 7 just takes the cake. I actually enjoy the humer side of tekken, but some characters you gotta draw the line where enough is enough.
@@bennymountain1 Dr. Bosconovich is a joke character at the very least.
Not really, he still has badass endings plus his vendetta with Jin. He has yet to be in a looney bin like Eddy tho.
If you ask me, I think the hatred toward these characters may be rooted in a general distaste towards "moe". Fighting game fans seem to prefer their female characters to be sexy and badass, not cute and girly. It's why characters like Chun Li and Cammy from Street Fighter, Baiken and I-no from Guilty Gear, or the Williams from Tekken are highly regarded while these girls are looked down upon. Even though these hated characters can kick just as much ass as the rest of their respective casts, the fact that they do so in a jovial and girlish way tends to put off a lot of players.
That's where the argument of "this character doesn't belong in this game" comes from, when people see these moe, playful, childish characters that look like they're not even taking the fight seriously in the same ring as characters like Kazuya and Heihachi, they can find it pretty annoying, specially in Tekken's more "grounded" fighting styles, like Nina, Ana, Xiaoyu, Christie, it doesn't matter if they're sexy or cute, when it's time to fight, they take their fighting stances and fight, that may be why they're beloved characters.
Thats also why Giovanna is liked a lot it seems (and to be fair, I think she looks cool). But yeah, people dont want to embrace the "anime" aspects because it makes them feel embarased (and to be fair, I feel the same to some extent. I dont like playing May because of that. I love playing Baiken, I-No and I'm fine with Ramlethal, but when it comes to May, it can feel "wrong", or at least you wont be taken seriously afterwards.) This is coming from somebody that watches JoJo.
@@leithaziz2716 Ineresting, because in the GG community both Baiken and I-no are seen as characters played primarily by people who "don't play guilty gear". Especially now with the outrage over I-no's boobs and the "Baiken for strive crowd" they're not really respected by most fighting game players unless you're actually good with them. May doesn't get that kind of hate in GG and people really didn't complain as much about her as other girlish characters in fighting games.
@@toasted7719 Baiken and I-no have those reputations because they're notoriously hard to play but have suuuuuuper appealing designs
@@toasted7719 Would you believe me if I told you I actually main Baiken in Rev 2? I find her to be cool. And I actually really like I-No's new look in Strive. Thinking of trying her out myself. But I am aware of the Baiken "fans" you're talking about.
Personally i feel its ok to have those "annoying" or "troll" characters in fighting games in fact i love to see fighting games with creative characters
Yea it gets pretty boring when u fight with similar characters
The issue isn’t that they’re joke characters, it’s because they’re joke characters who are also women. It says a lot about FG fans tbh
Troll characters are a different thing though
Hang on, let me try one too
Bison: dead in one hadouken
Charlie: literally killed off for being too good
Ingrid: *I ' M G O D. Oke?*
it that a matsuri reference? lol
@@ixaac453 YES
@@Tiomasta awesome
Yeah, Charlie this air force guy is legit the god of combat on the planet. Then funny enough Cody was up there too where Akuma might have easily taken an L from these two.
I was Thinking a Korone Hololive reference, but that’s just me.
Lol if sakura came out today, she def would get shitted on
Alot of people already don't like her because "sHe'S jUsT a rYu cLoNe"
True.
Believe me, she got shat on plenty when she was first introduced in Alpha 2.
I know because I used to be one of those haters.
Yeah. It's funny cause I myself find her to be a lil bit overrated. I don't dislike her at all, just not as in love with her as apparently every other street fighter fan is. But even I think the idea of her being crapped on if say, she appeared for the first time in sfv in her classic design is sad considering the the legacy of her we actually got.
i feel that is too much of a reality warping hypothetical to make that assessment. She is in way too much to imagine her just now appearing.
I didn't know people hated Ingrid I always thought her design was cool
Never had a problem with her
Same
I personally think Ingrid's cool. I adore her design and, like, how often do we see a ballet-based fighting style?!
Never had a problem with her exactly, but they always shoehorned her in games that had different artsyles and that always annoyed me a little, like alpha 3 where she, yun, yang and the ninja chick look a little weird around the other alpha characters
@Rob Shabibo Ligma
The Lucky Cloe drama made the least sense. She wasn't a child nor was she overpowered in the lore. Ignorant players just complained "She doesn't belong" in a game with boxing kangaroos and dinosaurs...
I don't understand the "child" accusations either. They use that EVERYTIME a young or young-looking character is announced. Look at how people got mad when Miyako was announced in the new Melty Blood game. They said "she doesn't fit" despite her being in multiple Melty Blood games in the past. Plus, young characters in fighting games was always a thing with characters like Sakura in Street Fighter or Platinum the Trinity in Blazblue and they said NOTHING about those characters. So why is it a problem now?
Ignorance is bliss and Common sense is not common, as long as these people get their characters in the game I don't see where this self centered attitude comes from, there should be characters for everyone not just muscle man machos.
Tldr they don't like her so she "doesn't belong".
Meanwhile, BlazBlue has characters like Rachel and Platinum, as well as Jubei who's a literal CAT.
true, but I think the anime FG player base is very different and are mvery much into these kind of characters
@@Rafael-kr6zv that's why i love anime FG fanbases, we could get a literal tank(and we did) and people would get hyped regardless lmao
Also, reminder that the literal cat is one of the few characters in the lore confirmed to have screwed (Is it just him and Nine?).
Nothing to do with the vid or your comment, but the idea came to mind and I needed to curse someone else with that knowledge.
My biggest problem with Rachel is that she never gets "damaged" (her in game damage animation is off the cat), to the point there is no satisfaction. Then again, same can be said about characters like Izanami, Elizabeth and Slayer (that is until they added cinematic in Xrd, which made it far more enjoyable).
Platinum is just a walking booger though, who thankfully gets bungled up too.
Honestly, anime fighter fit better for the anime fighters, y'know.
Yea but nine the phantom tho.....
I find it hilarious that people are saying they hate Rose and Honoka because they're "pedobait" ...as if Dead or Alive wasn't sexualizing underaged teenagers for the first 4 games. LMFAO
LMAO on your post. DOA NEVER had to have a clear generic lolicon on the roster or rip off a character name and looks wise from Love Live then shill them at every opportunity. Kasumi, Ayane, Kokoro, and Eliot never even came close to acting as clearly childish as Marie Rose, and don’t even attempt to deny it.
aren't all characters of age?
@@mortis.y2 Marie and Honaka are both 18
@@mortis.y2 Marie and honoka are 18 I think before DOA5 all that female characters was around 16-17
@@mortis.y2 marie and Honoka are 18 but it really only to make them easier to sell to western fans without them feeling like creeps you can try and say the same about Kasumi , Ayane, Eliot and Kokoro But like some one else said they never acted so blatantly like children and they were trying to make leifang and Hitomi act that way but They both supposed to be serious and smart so it wasn't never going to work without fan complaint which probably also influenced Marie and Honoka creation .
These characters prove that people in the FGC can't have fun sometimes
That what happens when they chase money instead of controlling the money
@The Tyro of Toriyama yo dude when's the last time yoi checked sales numbers? T7 has already more copies sold then T3
@The Tyro of Toriyama that's because MK is a joke all on it's own. Johnny especially is a Hollywood martial arts star joke
@@seokkyunhong8812 MK only has a few real joke characters.
@@seokkyunhong8812 th-cam.com/video/FEQYqFqbu7Y/w-d-xo.html
Ingrid seems like the kind of character people label "Mary Sue" and then just turn their brains off and hate, honestly. I can't speak to how true that is, though.
I wonder if it doesn't have something to do with all these characters being feminine in a very particular "cutesy" way rather than any sort of "female warrior archetype" type of femininity, if the distinction I'm trying to make there makes sense. From the looks of it, Marie Rose and Lucky Chloe seem like the sorts of characters who don't really show much combat inclination or experience in their affectations right up until they are literally in the process of doing a combat to somebody. They don't outwardly "seem like fighters", I suppose. So, they have miens that are typically actually DISassociated with combat proficiency despite in reality being, well, skilled fighters. I think that sort of thing can create a really fun contrast, personally, but I guess a lot of people are really put off by it.
I only know Ingrid from Project X Zone 2. I love her, she is very snarky but her heart is in the right place. She has trouble opening to other characters but creates the chance for very good interactions when she does.
I don't know if that's the case for Lucky Chloe at least - people love Lili, for example, and she doesn't give off a very MMA aura.
Chloe just feels overly fanservicey - an idol who wears some kind of lingerie and cat paws... her design is just a bit much.
So basically misogyny
i was gonna say that i thought some of the hate (specifically from male fans) for these characters is because they dont seem to be overtly sexualized in the same way that many female characters in fighting games are. while yes they are sexualized (after all, Lucky Chloe does seem to wear lingerie), at least with Marie Rose and Ingrid, they fall more in line with the lolita fashion style, a style that was originally popularized among women in Japan specifically BECAUSE men didn't find it attractive, despite the (prevelently western) opinions on the fashion and infantilization of women today. theyre meant to be cute, not overly sexy
I think I can connect those two points, a consistent issue people have with characters called Mary Sue's is being unreasonably skilled at too many things.
I've never been a big fan of the idol trope, in general and in fighting games, cause I find it weird to overhype/fetishize an industry I *only* ever hear shitty things about, but in fighting games I have another issue. I just struggle to believe you're as equally skilled in both idol performances and fighting, specifically because those are quite unrelated skills. One character that doesn't bother me this way is Bridget, who uses yoyo's both for combat and for performance art, meaning they're effectively the same skill applied differently. Otherwise, I struggle to believe you exist in this world, even within fantasy, because people who are skilled in multiple areas prioritize and develop expertize in one thing above the others.
Abel character traits:
Searching for a sense of identity
A bit naive
Resents being a clone/Shadowloo body
Like animals, especially dogs
Quiet, but friendly.
Gief weirds him out.
I mean, he's not Juri, or Viper, but he's there...
But he is not wearing a small thong or shaking his ass to the camera, behaving “innocently”, and even if he did, he is an adult.
@@shadowmoon1657 he does have the wrestler suit, which can be considered very sexy. But otherwise, id say hes like a bee, doesn't attack unless threatened. Which i like.
Even if he didn't have that, it'd be better than an unironic "I look like a 12yr old but I'm actually thousands of years old" character
Liking animals is the kind of thing you'd put on an online dating profile to hide your lack of a personality, like saying you're "fun-loving" or "laid-back." Everyone likes animals. And being "friendly" just means that you're not rude. Okay... what did you want, a cookie?
You've just described Cammy with less features
I can imagine the hate because the character's design only fulfills the Japanese fighting game communities' pop culture. Ingrid was hated because of the game she debuted being the worst fighting game Capcom ever made, Lucky was just one of those idol cultures that was pretty strong in Japan and the dev team possibly take feedbacks from fans for idol-esque fighter and Honoka/ Marie Rose is the only ones that I don't even know was hated.
During the Lucky Chloe Troll War, Harada at one point stated that Lucky Chloe wil be removed in all non-japanese Versions and be replaced by a generic looking white bald muscle man lol
Marie and Honoka are just victims of being rising stars who raised quite quickly into being actual stars and looking "different" from the rest.
That is pretty much it... It's just like how SP mentioned that if Sakura had debuted more recently and not in the times of the arcades when no one in particular seemed to be a star besides the obvious one, and people just got use to her... she would be part of this group of "ill-fitting" characters.
@@edwardsimongray4877 I love Harada's attitude towards people throwing a hissy fit over a character.
@@troykv96 Wouldn't that mean that they are actually more beloved than hated? Every hot thing is going to have haters because people like being contrarians.
@@talhaahmed2130 That is basically what happens here, people pretty much hate this two just for being contrarians, it just happens that there are more contrarians than usual, enough to be... noticeable.
Oh now i remember why i hate Ingrid, i got BEAT up by her, the CPU has no mercy.
this is to me the only valid reason to hate a character in fighting game
Why?
@@ethanmueller8218 it's a universally accepted reason because getting tilted by getting bodied repeatedly is an inherent feeling in fighting games.
@@DALKurumiTokisaki I feel ya
Yea Chun Li in alpha 2 owns my ass.
I hated Marie and Honoka appearances, but that faded away once I saw them fighting and seeing that they were not just there to be two most popular anime tropes, but were design with actual care and style that's just as entertaining to watch as any other DOA character.
As a Honoka main, I agree with your statement. Also, both Honoka and Marie are pretty much popular in Japan, so I don’t think they’re going anywhere anytime soon come the next game, even if the western audience were to demand they be removed from the roster.
Are not most of the girls in DOA also anime tropes? Marie is the only non-bouncy female character.
It's probably because they're too cute and those people are embarrassed to be seen playing those characters in public.
This video is also applicable to almost every Arcana Heart character too.
Yes, but some cute/moe character can done right, for example may from Guilty Gear and bridgete
I think you might have hit on part of it. These are girls who can’t be fit into the standard “boys games” model. They aren’t sexy or warriors, and some people start getting really insecure if they feel like they’re doing something “girly”. It’s less that they’re cute, more that they’re cute in a way that makes a certain kind of guy feel like his masculinity is being threatened.
its the reddit weeb mentality, idk why they can't just like things without trying to smother it in layers of irony and "no I'm not one of those weebs bro"
I don't mind cute. What I mind is toddlers in tiaras.
Isnt arcana heart that loli fighting game? I mean, I dont hate any of the characters in the video, but I would definetly not want to be caught playin that, no sir.
As for Lucky Chloe....we got Alisa, two bears, Aztec Pillar Man Shrek, a doctor whose fighting style is a pure WTF-fest, a wooden puppet....and Yoshimitsu. So the complaints about Tekken not being realistical or serious is no longer compatible or relevant.
And thats been for a looooong while.
Meanwhile, two kangaroos and a dinosaur have a boxing match, a metal puppet is fighting a robot Sargent, a giant bioweapon is fighting a dude whose not only was stuck by lightning, lived, and can harness it to boost his reflexes, but was also experimented on to be better at everything, and a alien Mayan God turns into a chimera to fight a high school student who turns into a Devil when his grandfather SHOOTS HIM IN THE HEAD AFTERWARDS!
I just don't like lucky cloe because her fighting style is hard to guard against for me. It's a personal problem and I don't hate the character herself
@@-Extra_Lives Understandable. Have a good day.
Fact: The "Idol" archetype was the real problem.
It was and never will be a popular thing outside of Japan and to most people, ESPECIALLY outsiders, it's cringe as hell.
I myself am a man stricken with "yellow fever", love Japan as its own entity and without that aura of weebs who think they know Japan because they watch anime, and actually want to move into its countryside one day... And I fucking hate idols.
That said, there's another factor here too: Idol archetypes get associated with general "anime girl" archetypes. What do I mean by this? Athena from KOF. People fucking HATE characters like this and Chloe is evocative of them. And it's not like being an Eddie Gordo clone was doing her any favors because, surprise surprise, people don't like fighting Eddie players either.
@@Impalingthorn the idol archetype isn't a problem. Its only a problem to you. I didn't complain about her having a fucking dress because that doesn't matter. In a video game where a bear and a peice of wood can fight against a demon, that isn't a valid point
Are people still fucking mad at Ingrid after all these years? I'm like, one of 10 people that even *played* that game.
I am one of them, and I wish we had the Code Holders game!
XD
I'm one of the few people that actually likes DoA for the fighting (I don't mind the booba either) but it is true that Marie and Honoka took the spotlight and alot of fans are a little upset their favorite character doesn't get a decent spotlight anymore. My favorite characters in DoA are Christie and Lisa but because Japanese fans pretty much dictate the pecking order those 2 haven't been featured in a long time, not even getting included in spin-off games
Had no idea Ingrid was hated. My guess is that because the game she comes from is Capcom Fighting Jam, a notoriously bad game, people associate her with that game and so they hate her
I personally deem her as this superpowered cute girl out of nowhere you're supposed to be hyped for....but you happen to not be regardless.
I believe it's also because her A.I is harder than a lot of the fighters in the game. Been at least 12 years since I played Evolution but she was a basically a final boss that's only a secret fighter, can't recall if she was harder then Akuma or Pyron though.
I love OP magical girls tropes in fighting games. And yes, I loved Ingrid from the very first time I played the game(despite fighting evolution not comparing in quality to something like Capcom vs SNK) and I even have 2 figures of Ingrid in my collection of fighting game characters statues. Cant say I love her as much as Athena Asamiya but I dont get how she can be hated. She is OP because she has psychic Sun Godess powers(she even claims Bison stole his psycho power from her). So its explained. She is strong. Its not like she is winning the fights by slaping. Even her normal strong punches contain a cutting psycho energy light!
Correction: Street Fighter Alpha 3 Max isn’t a port of the PS1 version but rather it’s own thing combining all the assets and animation from the arcade version, all the characters that had shown in different versions up to that point (including Ingrid), all the game modes from the Saturn version plus extra modes, new features, and so on.
It’s the most feature rich version of Alpha 3 and visually as arcade perfect as it gets outside of the actual arcade version (it’s just ok”).
WOW
O_o
I wish it had PC/Fightcade support :(
I just wanna play Alpha 3 as Fei Long
Lucky Chloe doesn't ruin the game (that actually goes to pre-nerf Leroy), but Lucky Chloe can ruin your fucking day.
She actually got buffed so idk.
@@kingdjack6 She is still super bad gameplay-wise. Fun to play, but hardly worth it in the long run.
@@Grey0King JimmyJTran vs Jeondding SCR 2017
I had no idea there was a community that hated Ingrid, I felt kind of cool going into this video with knowledge of who she was thanks to MattMcMuscles’ Wha Happun channel but then was wildly blindsided by the fact that she was so disliked considering she never really had a proper existence
The part that tilt those people (at least from what i can see) is the "cute looking girl beating the shit out of you " stereotype
They can accept the chiseled god looking guy decimating his foes but the little girl in a cute dress is too much to believe
At least that's what I think is going through their heads
Really? Cause dead or alive is made of of mostly cute girls and Tekken has like 3 different school girl characters and one wears an actual school girl outfit ,And street fighter has a school girl character as well ,it's definitely not about their cuteness
And yet they have no issue with the midget dinosaur that farts on people.
Chun Li and Cammy are both attractive. That one underage pirate girl from Guilty Gear doesn't even look strong enough to lift the anchor she uses to fight. Nobody hates _these_ characters as much.
@@romxxii Thank you
Nha that's not the reason lmao.
ABI: Here are some characters.
Me: Oh hey, my mains from their respective games!
ABI: People hate them.
Me: ...oh dear.
I feel that
Damn, you play _ALL_ of them?
What are the odds? 🤔 Lol
@@13Kr4zYAzN13 100% in my case. I like Idols, not gonna lie. Yes, FBI is already on it's way, I have tea and biscuits ready for them.
I totally relate. I play all of them and even have expensive figures of them in my game gals collection(even Ingrid, I have 2 relatively old figures of her, not as expensive as the others from Kotobukiya but still...). I am the kind of player who mains the magical girl troupe. Like in KOF I usually go for a team including Athena and Kula. No magical loli idols, no life...Still, I wonder why Xiaoyu, Talim, Lilith, Baby B. Hood, Nakoruru and the Sakura from earlier Street Fighter games all get a passing from these moe-hating people...
As a Lucky Chloe main, i can understand the pain when fighting her, as I struggle myself despite knowing how she works.
But i use her myself simply on a design basis. She appeals to me aesthetically and usually thats all I need to pick someone up. Its why i also main Xiaoyu, because i can make her look like my OC.
Seeing people hate on her as a chatacter hurts my soul but it just makes me wanna get better with her.
Knowing Harada likes her makes me happy though, so shes safe for now.
Edit: lol the Tommy Wiseu got me
Outside of having Eddy getting shit on by her in both endings, I would say she's annoying to play as, and annoying to learn.
Otherwise, having a character look like an idol is interesting.
As someone who only knows Ingrid from Project X Zone 2, I love her. She is snarky and funny and has trouble opening to others but her heart is in the right place. She has very genuine interactions with the rest of the cast (to be fair everyone does, it's a game written by Monolith Soft, human interactions is their jam). She does end up opening to other characters and creates very honest interactions.
I’ve honestly never had issues with these characters.
I will say, it was a little bit funny to me, back in the day, that characters like Lili, Kula Diamond, and Ingrid all came out around the same time. Since they all looked somewhat similar.
Same with when we got Rufus and Bob around the same time, or El Blaze and El Fuerte.
I think the beauty of fighting games IS the variety in styles, both functionality AND character design.
"Why literal child are on a fighting game? they dont belong here"
Laughs in Rimururu
Watch as Rimururu eviscerates her sister with a huge smile on her face.
D O N D E K E
Laughs in many fg characters that are children, seriously many of the people that hate the characters can be an absolute pain
i think the hate comes from the archetype they embody, the "tsundere little sister" archetype and that archetype isnt recieved well in the western world, if somebody irl was this cocky this smartass and dealing this level of mild abuse (of the kind seen in many tsundere) anyone whould have the urge to cave their face in for causing me pain without any reason, and that is how they appear in the games, reveling in your character's pain and your anger as if they looked at the screen and smiled at you, and when you end that match in that angered state you cannot place it to the opponent bc either you dont have one to blame or its online and you cant get mad at a gamer tag and a single match, so you direct that anger that was created by this character into the character and your wishes to never see them again
just watching this video without playing any of these games i got why so many hate them
@AT Productions "I mean, given how these series also feature villains who are utter bastards who killed, injured and sometimes rape people, are these "tsundere girls" really THAT problematic to have in a fighting game?"
I think the difference there is that the villains are treated as villains, while these girls are on the side of the good guys
@AT Productions I think the difference is that some people try to dissonate lore from characters as 2 different things. Like SugerPunch said, people like to see those two aspects as 2 different things and try to see only the gameplay when they play, call it ludonarrative dissonance (maybe they're ashamed of the plot and try to keep it away from them when playing. I personally cant really seperate them and dont know about how Max does it, I feel like its not for the best thatt he tries to seperate them so hard.)
They wont know these characters are killers or rapists, but the "anime" looking characters tell everything from one glance at them. You wouldnt know that Jin caused WW3 by just looking at him, but someone like Lucky Chloe kinda tell you everything about them without needing to dig into the lore (You metion that it's just an act by Chloe herself, but most people dont wanna go through her arcade ending because they already hate her based off of 1st impressions). You wouldnt know that Ramlethal tried to kill everyone from just looking at her, she gives off a very "fetish-ised" aesthetic and that's your first impression of her. You might find Millia or I-No more approachable by their design, not knowing the former's an assassin and the latter is the Wild Card of the series. Hope that gave you some insight on how some might approach these characters.
@AT Productions yes but in this scenario of a normal match, the reaccion to loosing to them is different from the villain archetype
when m bison wins it feels like a saturday morning cartoon villain winning and continuing their plan for world domination, which elicits a "damn i realy gotta get stronger to deafeat them"
when this archetype wins its more of a, a random kid came and kicked your character's ass for no reason(and by extent you), which elicits a "THE AUDACITY OF THIS BITCH"
it feels a lot more personal to be defeated by one of them than by m bison bc for m bison "its just another step in my plans"
I get your point
In the case of Marie and Honoka, both debuted in DOA5 as DLC characters, thus never had a chance to get any character development til 6, and even then they're somewhat "main" characters of the story til - once again - the ninjas take center stage.
I think you hit the nail on the head with Lucky Chloe and Marie/Honoka, though I'm surprised you didn't mention how much Capcom Fighting Jam was disliked by the FGC at the time, and how it's pretty much the poster child of the dark age of Capcom's fighting games in the early/mid 2000's. I feel as though the hatred towards Ingrid is at least somewhat linked to that, what with her debuting in that game.
That's actually my central reason for not liking Ingrid. I remember buying Fighting Jam with so much excitement because it was finally a new 2D Capcom fighting game... and it played, looked, and felt awful and lazy. And then Capcom went dark for almost 10 years in the FG department. Ingrid was basically the mascot of the game with her being the only new face, so whenever I see her, all I remember is that disappointment. It's totally unfair and illogical, but it's where my brain goes with the character and why I cringe every time.
It definitely FEELS like people perceive she's a representative of one of the worst 2D Fighting game Capcom has ever produced, and as a result her inclusion in Alpha 3 MAX might've felt like an attempt to push this "rando OC" into the world of Street Fighter.
Which is interesting because that means people gave her much more importance than she really had in the grand scheme of things. Like if she were to become a Mascot Character (Her lore could easily help with that belief as well as being the only character with non-imported sprites in Fighting Jam) that Capcom would push everywhere and include on everything when in reality... No, it was just a neat character concept they could use and got to finish.
I call this the silver the hedgehog syndrome
not the original plan originally to be Capcom All-Stars
Chloe was just... annoying to fight for a lot of reasons, and that really didn't help. Her Rage Art, which especially in low ranks gets spammed as soon as people get it, does more damage than other characters, which could lead to comebacks off an invincible reversal deleting most of someone's HP. Not so much of a problem at higher ranks where people can block, but for casuals, it's pretty annoying. She also just generally has a kit designed to steamroll new players. Lots of attacks that are very easy to perform and require more than the basic fundamentals of blocking to deal with. Again, not at all a problem at higher ranks. For casual players, she's obnoxious to deal with and deals way too much damage for how easy she is. For experienced players, her basic tricks don't work on them and she really has to work for her wins.
Chloe's just kinda the perfect storm of being mechanically obnoxious and being hostile to a character the community adores. She's a fine addition to the game on her own merits, but handled pretty poorly as far as introductions go.
Considering the fact that 80% of Tekken online players are up to Genbu max, it is obvious that Chloe is a huge pain in the arse to the majority of Tekken players for no good reason. It is hilarious how much of an "online character" Lucky Chloe is
This is more about the characters visuals and not gameplay.
She's one of the harder characters to play in the game. I assure you not too many people hate her because they lose to her online. She's just so lame to the average Western audience. No real martial arts, not extraordinarily attractive, fucks over a fan favorite, etc.
Nah, as a lucky chloe hater i hated her since she got announced, her face is ugly af, her voice is ultra annoying, her fighting style is à joke, and she bully eddy..
@@drabnail777 - I think that's the point the video missed: it's _not_ just about their appearance. If they are annoying to play against, that's going to make a LOT f backlash that can spill into other aspects. "I hate Lucky Chloe" can mean "I hate how she acts," "I hate how she looks," "I hate playing as her" or "I hate playing against her," and anoy one of those negatives can bleed into the other, starting at "dang, she's annoying to fight" and developing into "I hate her very existence."
I actually didn't even know about Ingrid, Marie Rose or Honoka before seeing this video. Marie Rose in particular might actually get me interested in DOA, that fighting style sounds like amazing fun.
Marie-Rose is quite fun to play.
Saw ingrid and i immediate thought was is that athena of kof
Anything Marie Rose can do in DOA, Helena, Christie, Brad Wong, or Leifang do better. She’s fun but not competitive in the slightest and doesn’t do damage. One of the worst characters consistently in DOA in both games.
She's pretty fun tbh. She also has some cool dlc costumes.
Get DOA Last Round, it's pretty fun to play.
funny enough my biggest problem with this video is just you saying that Alpha 3 MAX was on “okay port”. Bro it’s like the definitive edition of Street Fighter Alpha 3 out there! Only downside is it’s stuck on the PSP :(
Die-hard fighting game fans: "Cute anime girls don't belong in fighting games except for Chun-Li, Sakura, Cammy, Asuka, Lili, Xiaoyu, Kasumi & Ayane because they're cute anime girls."
Me: "HA...?!"
I'm trying to imagine what a singular confused laugh would sound like
Wise words
in regards to Lucky Chloe, the difference is they all use actual martial arts and cant take 70% of your health on one of the most BS trolly move sets out there. Also it's just super annoying hearing lucky chloe say "wan, chu" every 6 seconds.
Not a single one of the names you mention are 'cute anime girls'. They're bad-asses with dynamite for muscles.
I don't even play any of these games and I can totally see why people would be at least annoyed by a 90lb girl slapping around a 300lb muscleman as if that's even remotely possible.
@@CaptainDCap Naw. At least half of those girls are cute anime girls. Please educate yourself before typing.
I’m almost surprised Ash Crimson didn’t pop up in the discussions. Almost...
You mean feminine Guile
Was he hated gameplay or lore wise?
@@WanArk86 lore.
@@WanArk86
Ash players are a myth, so lore, yeah.
Partially because he stole Iori's powers and K's protagonist spot, partially (mostly) because they got baited by the cute white-haired girl in the cover actually being a cute white-haired boy and them being too weak to smash regardless.
@@terreausore2435 hahaha that made my day. Thank you for that
I think that a lot of fans, when they're growing up, want their hobbies to "grow up" with them. Not just in fighting games, but anything that is or at one point was considered "kids' stuff"-- video games, comic books, anime, etc. They want to be able to still enjoy the thing they grew up enjoying, but also be taken seriously as an adult with mature and sophisticated tastes (in their own minds, anyway). I think this is a big reason why, for example, a lot of Smash players raged at the Pirahna Plant being added to Ultimate instead of, say, Dante or Goku or Shadow the Hedgehog. I spent a lot of my teens and early twenties in that "no fun allowed" mindset, and when a show or game I liked had something cutesy or jokey added into it, it drove me crazy, because it undermined my image of it being a Very Serious Game for Very Serious People.
You're missing the point.
"Why literal child are on a fighting game?" gave me a good laugh, but tbh imo, literally anything/one can be in a fighting game. You can play as a literal plant and completely obliterate Sephiroth in Smash
Smash is a different things altogether.
(to be clear, I don't think there's that much of a issue with child in fighting game, depending on context, just that Smash isn't the best example).
@@curry94400 maybe but my point is imo anyone can be playable in a fighting game, somehow fighting games can just make it work. I guess a different example to use is Umbrella in Skullgirls, she is literally a child but i really love her moveset. Give a child a parasite umbrella thats also her friend and it they come out to be a pretty cool fighting game character.
There happens to be a TV Personality in the Philippines named "Booba" and the reception was also either "haha booba" or "ew booba."
bruh lmao.
Booba
All these characters have gotten their share of hate, but doesn’t feel like they are all that bad.
They aren’t ruining everything by existing.
It's more people ruining themselves by believing these characters are ruining these things
I dunno, I play fighting games for the characters and when DOA6 came out I only ever saw 4 of them: Mila (who I played), Marie Rose, Honoka and Nico - who everyone else played for 70 or so matches. It made me quit, honestly, because I don't like them but was still forced to listen to their creepy squeals in a very lackluster game overall, but at the same time indicates that people do like them overwhelmingly. Reasonable response would be "don't like them - don't play them", but in this case you literally can't, unless you stay offline. I don't hat them, I just don't want to play the game because of them.
@AT Productions true but at least for the case of Marie/Honoka their popularity drowns the hatred out.
Lucky Chloe was the character that not only got me into tekken but was THE character that got me into fighting games, litterally her f4, 4 made me fall in love with the character and learn how to do combos and make me more and more interested in more games and the FGC as a whole and I'll be forever grateful to the dev team
Eww
I'm glad you found a character that suits you at least
@@scozzbaggs9224 ngl the second i saw her I thought of her as a weeb bait, but after playing random chars with a friend i liked her
@@Neco-Ico that's good. You do you she just grinds my gears. Her sfx. Her moves her fucking two handed fucking wave with those dumbass paw sleeves. Fuck that bitch...
I'll tell you my theory: these characters conflict with the person's head canon. Like most fighting games play fast and lose with the story right. It allows players to make up their own story, for any one of the obviously not main characters to be the star of the show. This is Ingrid especially. I know in many folks heads Street Fighter didn't have litteral gods involved, it was about Mortal men doing Mortal men things...that were possible in this universe. Things change in alpha where Akuma at first talks like he's a literal demon. Look up his Alpha 2 ending, it reads not like he's Gouken's brother but like he's a demon who came to our world to "perfect his killing power". I think that's what the problem is. These people have built up a story in their head over multiple games and the introduction of these characters takes them right out of it, because they can't/won't fit these newbies into their canon.
Able's character is of a man struggling with his own identity, whether he is truly himself or just a clone, atleast throughout sf4 up to sf5. In sf5 he seems more comfortable with him being "him" and not just a clone of bison, but he still has his moments of weakness.
Part of the reason he comes off as an empty character with no "Personality" or backstory to speak of, is because he himself doesn't truly know who he is.
He is a man with no Identity, trying to learn what, if any, identity lies beneath the surface of his own mind. A bit of extreme Dissociation, which he shows all of the symptoms of.
Counterarguments to points made above:
Ingrid: True, there is no true cannon, so because of that, whatever cannon we might get from endings is seen as legit, even when they are not. Like, if stars aligned, here's how it went down. If they weren't following cannon, they would be interesting.
So, while her defeating Bison isn't big of a deal, I think you missed another important point, she claimed Bison stole from her and was going to be punished for it. Together with her overall demeanor, it came across as if a Mary Sue, far stronger then a long established Big Bad with Eldritch Powers, was able to free the main character (devaluing the struggle Ryu went through) and kick Bison's ass while devaluing him as a threat, all the while having a personality that best be described "a bratty teen who takes herself too seriously". It overall made it that a character whose design just did not mesh well for the fanbase, storyline that tried to pass her off as The Hottest Thing Yet and have the cannon support her awesomeness.
Of course, this is baring the mistranslations shenanigans.
Lucky Chloe: Even without the bad character focus, she'd still be hated, at least in my opinion. Mainly cause her shtick isn't that funny or charming. "OH, but look at the small girl beating big people-" Xiaoyu, Alisa and Lili. "But imagine being beaten by idol-" Roger Jr and the Bears. It also doesn't help that Harada got too invested to go "haha I'll make it cannon, also Eddy gets shit. Even in the ending where HE wins."
Marie and Honoka: Even if the characters are more popular and appear in games you don't care about, that's still fundamentally a Preferential Treatment. The fact that Tina, Lisa and Mira get shafted all together just leaves a sour taste in your mouth. Plus, characters whose sole creative motivation is to bait in more fans (not "draw" in, "bait" in) feels manipulative.
Generally speaking, no, nothing is off the table for fighting games. But tactics that bait in more fans instead of actual characters will always be seen as inferior.
I get your points. Maybe that’s why there’s more hype towards a childhood hero character having a an appearance at n these games than one of those guy or girl characters with the “moe” like architecture or to what you described.
I’m glad this was made because I actually like these characters
So you're a lolicon?
@@philithegamer8265 ? So you must be gay if you play a bunch of guy characters going by this logic. How about actually trying out the combos they have, more fun than that bland shit you probably play
@Will Diesel I can’t speak on Ingrid but, Tekken I was an eddy main but I wasn’t frustrated with him being replaced as long as I had someone with similar gameplay also step mix was fun to do. Marie isn’t someone I play but I can see appeal with the combos she can do. With Honoka is a mix of a lot of characters she’s like mokujin but she doesn’t switch every round. But hating characters for no reason is just stupid, it’s fine if they don’t interest you but they are there for others to enjoy
@Will Diesel Yea that’s understandable but nowadays characters like these aren’t set for a niche audience like back then you can use them however. Back in the old game’s characters severed one purpose to their archetype but now developers design them to be played how you like. A good example is Laura from sfv I personally hate grapplers but they made her a rush down with projectiles and cmd grab so she can fit what you like not sticking to the grappler that sits and waits for the perfect moment
@Will Diesel I’m not opposed to disliking characters but I feel people mostly hate fighting them instead of just trying each character each game changes how archetype can be played
Something I wanna point out here is that there's some serious sexist undertones about why people hate these characters. They are female characters who don't conform to fighting games stereotypes. The reason people don't "hate" Sakura is partly because of her inspiration from Ryu. The reason people don't hate Rose is because of her link with Bison. Women in fighting games need to be presented in a way that's not annoying and has a familiar fighting style.
I don't see nearly as much hate for somebody like SF4's Rufus, who is a geniunely annoying character who is just jaded by Kens existence, than I see for Lucky Chloe.
The reason Sakura and Rose arent hated is because they actually have a storyline and aren't just the type of characters who were automatically perfect. And even then, Rose has some haters due to past balance issues. The entire joke with Rufus isn't that he looks out of place, its that he's always the butt of whatever joke there is, and even then, he's still very much hated. This has nothing to do with sexism, dude.
I can't say anything about the sexism (if there is any involved to begin with), but what I will say is Sakura and Rose are loved partly due to being legacy characters or having "legacy status" (there can be exceptions however), along with the fact that people in the FGC didn't have this weirdly but very noticeable case of cute aggression back then. And if they did, it wasn't nearly as bad as it is now. Literally May from Guilty back in the day was a very hated character (tho to be honest one reason was because of her dolphins and blanka ball attacks and vice versa). I seen many people go on saying "May sucks because it glorifies P word in games" or "anyone who likes her is a P word cuz SHES A CH!LD" even tho it's been implied she isn't. And now that May has "legacy status" you don't hear people hate on May as much. Since Xrd it's mainly been directed at The Valentines. Specifically Elphelt, who is also a cutesy girly character (tho this time she has tits so maybe it may not be for the same reasons. I don't know). Thing is I always noticed it's always the cute moe characters that get hated on with overwhelming intensity (along with just generally new characters. Especially if they are a new protag I noticed. Like Shun'Ei from King of Fighter 14, who i actually like with my only issue being his sweater cape).
There are many reason why people do hate on girly cutesy characters, but there will always be that loud group of people who claim those characters are P word unless they have legacy status. Even then there will be exceptions (Like Athena in the King of Fighters games, who is actually a personal top favorite of mine). Not sure if it's a minority cuz in my experience it's p0retty common.
@@squidtheinconsistent But we also characters like C. Viper who is literally labeled, "Mrs. Perfect" in the Super Street Fighter 4 manual. And last I check she definitely earned that title since she's able to carry her job with ease, kick ass and take names, and has a daughter on top of that. And she is a very popular character last i checked too. Sometimes being the "perfect" character isn't always the problem cuz thing is sometimes those are characters who people can appreciate and strive to become. Even tho perfection among humans is not possible, it can still be admirable for trying. I'll be honest I don't know all of Viper's lore so if I'm missing anything or got some things wrong please fill me in.
I also like to believe that's why people like Ingrid, we can consider her a Mary Sue (even tho i just found out form someone else in the comments her being the originator or original owner of the Psycho Drive/energy was a mistranslation issue), but thing is, she's just a joy to have around. She's elegant, has attitude, powerful (why? Could be naturally gifted, could have worked for that power behind the scenes, who knows), and just has a beauty one can appreciate. It's mainly about, their good qualities rather than about ":how perfect" they are. What I'm trying to say is just cuz a character may seem perfect doesn't mean they can't be liked for one reason or another if that makes sense.
@@etrotm1226 if that were the case, the very same qualities that make Ingrid so hated as a character wouldn't have made characters like Ash Crimson so controversial and hated when they debuted.
@@squidtheinconsistent I wasn't there when that happened cuz I wasn't an SNK fan til I was turning 13 many years ago. Which was like early 2009 lol. So I never knew Ash was hated (or at least not as much as I remember since Ash is a cool character in my opinion. And many people seem to have likes his return in KOF15). But anyway I never saw him as perfect tho. I like to believe they wrote Ash the way they did to show how threatening he is especially since he is (was now) an evil protagonist. And one we clearly will clash against eventually along the road especially during the events of KOF13 where he was starting to reap what he sow but that's just my two cents.
This video reminded me to not give a flying fuck about people hating me for playing Lucky Chloe. Like seriously, she’s such a fun, dynamic character.
I with you on that
I don't really hate Chloe, I just think she's similar to Eddie in being very gimmicky and unsafe on Shields. I really don't know much or care about tekken Lore and she doesn't give me trouble online or anything, she's just kind of obnoxious for new characters. Definitely something you'd see online and not in high level competitive play.
@@coolkidsclub9943 That’s valid. I, on the other hand, am a pure Tekken casual, and I love playing her. All her sweeps and flips are just so fluid.
@@coolkidsclub9943 I don't see how people can compare Chloe to Eddy. They have nothing in common except... they both dance?
She isn't even a gimmicky character since she doesn't really have long strings or confusing movements like Eddy.
I feel like people hate her design so much that they don't even bother to learn what she can do. With that kind of attitude even Kazuya could be considered a gimmicky character
@@DXYS95 When you sit down and play her she feels like boring Eddie gameplay and yes her to the rhythm style strings are fucking gimmicky as fuck my dude something Eddie also does but isn't annoying about it or as blatantly obvious
My Feedbacks on these characters (yeah I'm late):
- Ingrid is a desperate attempt of Capcom to create their Athena from Psycho Soldiers/King of Fighters and she doesn't even try to look different
- I honestly hope That Lucky will become more deep because she is cute and """"""fighting characters who use rhythm as major component""""""" is a rarity
- I have no clue why people hate Marie Rose, maybe because she looks like a Loli?
- The pink haired bimbo is just an excuse to introduce a 'mokujin' character in DoA. Mokujin fucking sucks.
*Slight addendum
Not even Mokujin. _OGRE._
Her whole schtick is that she steals moves from other fighters. She's literally just Waifu Ogre lol
@@13Kr4zYAzN13 Yup she's 100% just Ogre, they took what works well. Made her boringly cute the shit the JP side eats like it's crack yet the US side is weird about since the shit is do off hours would claim other wise. They love their cute shit too.
Honoka was never needed Raidou came first. Honoka also has 1-2 frames of animation where she’s in the copied characters stance, Raidou doesn’t.
I think Ingrid looks neat, I really like the sparkle effects on her attacks
None of the reasons you gave explain the sheer disgust people from the communities show at the mere sight of these characters, imo.
Also, yeah, Ingrid WAS kinda like a Capcom Athena, since Capcom All Stars was being developed by Ex-SNK devs and they introduced the code breakers trio as references to KoF.
I played alpha 3 max. I was much worse at fighting games at the time and had no clue who she was. I thought she was alright.
one thing I love is that I've pretty much never heard someone say a character has 'no personality' and it turned out to be true. Usually the character's personality is boring, stoic, or one that's been seen a dozen times before but that is still a personality.
People literally just hate on cute petite girl characters.
Basically, close minded audience.
I'll say one good think about SFxT, it actually gave Able a real personality. Him being a cloudcucklander who loves animals and space aliens made me actually like him. Able now reminds me of Drax from the GotG films and that's awesome.
Now we need him finding aliens in SF6!
XD
Abel*
I can't even say they're hated. A lot of people like these characters, it's more accurate to say they're controversial I guess? And that's just because there are morale busy bodies who don't live and let live.
Pretty much, aye. And it's not even a mystery on why they're controversial themselves, just look at their renders and you can tell exactly what people might find annoying.
Hell, I honestly dislike Lucky Chloe a fair bit but I do admit the outrage was rather ridiculous - like most character outrages out there.
Except for D'vorah's. That was earned hatred.
If namco added bruce, ak or marduk before release, i wouldnt have give a shit about chloe. However paying for my fav charachters while this piece of shit coming with the game, pissed me off.
@@Mateus_Carvalho Eh, didn't mind her killing Mileena.
@@RippahRooJizah She did more than just killing Mileena though. Cucked Jade, betrayed Kotal, sucked up to Quan Chi and Shinnok...
@@Mateus_Carvalho I mean, her killing Mileena was something that irked people, not so much the rest that I know of.
From what I've heard, people don't like Ingrid because she's "too anime". Which I guess means they think she's too moe and cutesy for Street Fighter. The cutesy characters tend to be the most hated on outside of actual anime fighters I've noticed, which is probably why those other 3 are hated as well. That said, I think there are far more people like Marie and Honoka then those that like Ingrid or Lucky.
It's weird because the "too anime" complaints are only directed to cute anime stuff, but badass anime stuff is fine. Like, are Oni, Asura, and Zeku not anime?
@@KingOfDarknessAndEvil Well Street Fighter has always been anime, but never shoujo anime.
Isn't that, like, extremely broad though? "Too anime" that can applie to alot of things, especially fighting games. I believe "too cutesy" or even "too japanese" is what they mean without actually saying it
@@KingOfDarknessAndEvil It's almost as if anime has different genres.
@AT Productions Tomboys and ojousamas aren't a shoujo thing.
One character I despise is Patroklos in Soul Calibur 5.
When they revealed him I wasn't that fond of his design, seemed like he was just hyper focused on looking flashy but not adding anything new to the game. But I didn't care that much to begin with, I usually don't play the sword and shield characters. However when I finally got to play the game I learned to absolutely hate him.
The story mode was completely focused on him and his sister Pyrrha, none of the other new characters got any real spotlight, Zwei and Viola definitely deserved more than what they got.
It didn't help that the story was pretty bad, but how they depicted Patroklos as a true hero and such was complete BS. He was an complete idiot at best and an awful human being at worst.
He was moaning and complaining that he lost his sister long ago and would do anything in his power to find her and spend his life with her and such. He finds her and she, for some reason, is a complete outcast and isolated from society. They are happy and joyful for maybe a day or so until he finds out she's been hanging out with a bad crowd, servants of Soul Edge like Tira because they were the only people in the world that at least pretended to giva a crap about her.
After Patroklos, our hero, found that out he, like everyone else, abandoned his long lost and beloved sister, leaving her to be swallowed up by sadness, isolation and get corrupted by Soul Edge. Patroklos, our great hero, again starts complaining that he misses his sister and then realizes that his beloved sister Pyrrha now turned into pretty much a demon that only wants to destroy everything and now he must defeat her.
As far as I can remember never once in the story do they emphasize that he is the reason why everything is messed up, he is always portrayed as the great hero that will save everyone, when he should've been the villain. Especially considering the awful things he did.
Patroklos just sucks, everything he did just made me hate him even more. Before the shit-show with his sister he just ran around and murdered countless people because some rich dude told him to and for some reason he was convinced that he was a hero or something. Naiveté only goes so far until you simply are an idiot.
If you've read this far, thanks! Now you know why me and many other Soul Calibur fans absolutely hate Patroklos.
P.S. Not gonna lie, Patroklos' and Pyrrha's theme song "Home is Faraway" is really nice, so why not give it a listen.
Yeah my best bet. People tried to copy past Jin and Noel from Blazblue into SoulCalibur. But wanted to make it reverse. Where Jin is heroic sibling while Noel is antagonistic sibling. Their story honestly feels like a bad fanfiction of blazblue fan. Plus it didn’t help that those two kinda took over roles and story that was given to their Aunt and Mom, which people wanted to see conclusions to. They probably be more accepted if they didn’t were written by better author and if they didn’t interrupt story that most fans were invested with.
Patroklos guy, to me is an embodiment of ultimate playing victim how to and guidelines..
I read your 500 word essay and I have to agree. Not just because adding meter to soul calibur was dumb but also cuz he outright doesn't even feel good as a sword and shield character. Which surprise he was a filthy setsuka main the whole time
Yeah, Soul Calibur 5 having discount ripoffs of their own characters was a really odd choice. At least MK 10's "Kombat Kids" weren't outright replacements for the originals.
@@electronsympathy Jacqui kinda was Jax-lite (at least, moreso than the others), but she wasn't anywhere near the worst character from MKX *coughD'Vorahcough*
"why are there literal children in a fighting tournament?"
Athena- Hold my psycho ball.
Also, doesn't Tekken canonically have a fucking panda taking part in the fighting tournament? What is a literal panda doing in a fighting tournament?
Panda >>>>>>>> Lucky Chloe.
And I even didn't play as panda/kuma.
I really prefer to see a Mokujin or something like this on Chloe model with "mute mod".
Athena is not a children, but a teenager..
A child would be Bao 🤭
as someone who's researched way too much tekken lore, off the top of my head Heihachi (host of most? tekken tournaments) was really impressed by this one girl's fighting skill (Xiaoyu) so he gave her a panda bear that was a trained fighter (he owned a pet grizzly bear Kuma so this wasn't totally out there, i forgot if both bears had a genetic experimentation explanation or if they're just "really smart")
Panda (yes the panda's name is Panda) often enters tournaments for the sake of Xiaoyu and for her own good, but as for why she's allowed in the tournaments i would place it entirely on Heihachi being biased
Athena is actually 18.
Also, Auska and Lili are teens. And a wooden man, a scientist with an arthritis problem, and boxing raptor. Tekken is absurd, and thats what makes it fun.
As someone who mostly knows these characters by reputation, one thing that strikes me is that they largely seem to lack moments where they take the fall, or even just slide back from being On.
Like, I think of Karin in SF, a character who seems reasonably well liked...but I'm not sure she would be without the humanizing element of her story with Sakura. The fact that the big Heiress Of A Top Zaibatsu stuff falls away and she becomes a bit more of a regular person with Sakura around helps make them both *work.*
So would giving these characters more of a chance to just...*relax*, around people they regard as equals, be enough to make them more beloved?
Honoka isn't hated as much as marie rose. That's because marie, and lucky chloe are very very annoying, both in their playstyle and the way they behave in their intros and outros. They were designed in a way to flip off their opponents and trolling them. Another reason they are hated is because they behave in childish manner and are below 18. Admitting to like them will get you called pedo, so the minority who like them will also stay silent.
@@edgelord121 well i like both. their cute, i like cute stuff and i like both play characters in playstyle (although my main in DoA is Mila, cuz her MMA stuff is fun and to me she's the hottest of the roster)
@@Canalbiruta well yeah, Mila is pretty hot
RIP D.D. and Rook.
Maybe if they ended up actually existing, Ingrid would've had more dynamics than "I'm a god, lol".
@@edgelord121 Welp, they fix the below 18 by ageing them up by two years.
Analyzing these characters and their design patterns leave me with a conclusion that a portion of the FGC hate their designs because it resembles cute E-girls.
And you know how the FGC is with girls.
Fighting game community are just salty cause they cant get girlfreinds
Women who aren’t sex objects or villains (or sexy villains) aren’t exactly adored by FG players
This is a year old but where do you think egirls got their asthetics from?
8:45 Pretty much nobody got a real story in this game because the tournament was canceled, which kinda sucks TBH (at least half of them are not canon). I also feel the need to mention the more serious role that Chloe plays in the canon. She's an idol/pop star who works for G Corp which holds power in much of multimedia around the world and they use Chole as an influencer. Talk about breaking the 4th wall.
I played SFA3M, myself, alongside Capcom Fighting Jam. Pretty much what I feel for Ingrid, personally, is interest. I want her to be able to actually have her own game for once and actually be fully fleshed out. I have no clue why Capcom kept her around just to relegate her largely to crossovers, cameos, and guest appearances without actually ever giving her her own game or actually fleshing her out.
Ingrid's just not meant to be, sadly. The FGC already hates her too much so any attempts to salvage her will likely be pointless.
People really wanted Ingrid in SFV. She was high on the polls behind Sakura and Makoto. People want her in games. Capcom just doesn't do it.
I play Chloe and knowing that just by picking this character I auto tilt my opponents gives me immense joy.
At least you're honest about it. Be True to yourself, King.
Personally, I still find fighting her frustrating, though. Keeps crushing all my grabs and evading my frame traps just by attacking.
Chloe is hilarious to me. She is a game streamer with cat ear headphones and a frilly skirt. Beating people with her feels rediculous and funny.
i hate her nc launch and damage hahahaha.
always catches me off guard.
I would be totaly fine with her. IF I COULD MUTE HER VOICE.
@@casmoloves5570 there's a mod for that
I got Strive ad before the video and I think that's the first time in a while TH-cam ads were actually relevant
Damn, Strive is getting advertised?
Cool
Really? Cool
@@yurexpi Bullshit Blazing moment
I think I hate Honoka and Marie Rose for the same reason, it makes me uncomfortable when someone says Kasumi was aged up to 18 in the US or when an anime has an 1000 yr old dragon that looks like a kid. I feel like I'd like them a lot more if they were in Tekken or Street Fighter, but it feels really weird to see little girls in DOA, even if they're not technically kids.
I was introduced yo Ingrid through Project X Zone 2 and thought she was neat. Had no idea until later that apparebtly people hated her and I didn't understand why.
The first thing I’ve ever seen of Marie Rose is the gameplay of her kicking the asses of people twice her size, while climbing around them like they’re goddamn jungle gyms, I think she’s my favorite DoA character now, although I haven’t really gotten into the series as a whole yet.
DOA gymnastics are a feature
XD
I can't image being even slightly annoyed by Lucky Chloe when Tekken's already got Alisa.
The amount of hatemail I get playing Alisa is ridicolous. And the community is divided on it, some actively hates her, calling her broken, and cheap, which makes no sense from a gameplay perspective, but people still keep on hating, just because.
Pretty sure the people who don’t like chloe also don’t like alisa
@@LortOfTheStones you deserve it tho
@@LortOfTheStones Christ that’s crazy. I just got back in tekken and bought a few characters... how is alisa broken, I tried noctis and holy hell that man is broke
One thing I can say about Alisa is she doesn't have pigtails. It's not much, but it's something.
While I would never describe these characters as "ruining fighting games", I don't think they are exactly good designs either? So I feel the dislike can be understandable if they are seen as bad designs that don't feel like they mesh with the established cast's cohesion. Frankly I have had this issue with most of SFV and KoF XIV's newcomers that tend to feel too cartoony or too lazily designed.
As for those mentioned in the video, I think Ingrid would have worked fine in a KoF or Rival Schools style game, but in SFA3 her moves felt super out of place, and the fact that she was a newcomer who was said to have this godlike power that came out of nowhere didn't help. I feel the reason Lili works while Lucky Chloe doesn't for me personally, is while Lili is also a very feminine fighter, her classy and stylish ballet kicks feel like they would hurt like hell and can make you buy something as impractical as ballet as a martial art. On the other hand, Lucky Chloe is hitting you with gloved cat paws, and her kicks feel like a lazy ripoff of Eddy Gordo. Plus it is really annoying how she takes an established veteran in the series like Eddy into a complete joke in both his and her story modes for a cheap attempt at humor (like how Gang-il reduces Kim Kaphwan into a whiny loser). As for Honoka I have no issues with her design since she fits her series just fine, but I find her use of other character's moves super lazy especially for a relatively recent character.
I remember friends disliking Ingrid because she felt like a KoF ripoff. And in that sense I kind of agree, she kind of feels like a low effort mash up of Athena Asamiya and Kula Diamond.
Personally, I hate that we never got a decent release of alpha 3 Max. To this day I have no idea if she's actually any good.
That's weird since Sakura could be considered a KOF rip off too (Yuri came first).
To be fair, considering what I've from Thorgi's Arcade video on that game, your friend might have been right ? The director of that game hailed from SNK and had worked on KoF, and apparently there was another Code Holder in her original game who was pretty much a copy & paste of K' from KoF.
0:34 Look mom,im in the video : D
Congratulations
Great! Congratulations.
Now please explain us, why do you hate Honoka?
@@zenotaddei he hate it because B O O B A
No
pls can you tell form what game are your profile picture character?, i liked his desing...
I imagine its both the fact that all of them escapes from the 'tone' of the roster (most the fighters are male or very beautiful women) and a general fatigue/hate/distain of the kawai and idol anime characters have gained over the years in the west.
On that note, Sakura from SF works because she is not fighting and trying to be cute: she wants to get better at martial arts. That creates empathy to the player, who wants almost the same thing: to get good in the game (she being a combo-friendly version of ryu helps on the popularity).
This is the belief that I've been holding as well. Most of the fighting game community don't really like cute anime, and the only "acceptable" anime is if it's something like Dragonball.
It's not even a current year thing, either. The King of Fighters series has been going on for years and yet Athena is still hated by many despite being a mainstay character.
When it comes down to it, it really is that most of the fighting game community really hates kawaii anime girls, and that the ones that do like them are seen as weirdos.
@@zerosyaoran Athena is hated because of her voice and spammy moveset, not because of her design. A better example would be Kula, who is also an kawaii anime girl but they made her much more likeable
@@theshitpostassistor155 Fair point.
@@zerosyaoran You mean Western Fighting Game fans hate cutesy anime girl characters, not the fans in Asia where they are popular
Thank you for this video. I personally like these types of characters (Ingrid specifically), and I do not quite understand the hatred for them. It's nice to see the echo chamber break and someone bigger actually question why people think the way they do.