According to my understanding, catholics believe we aren't exempt from the consequences of our sins just because we repent and believe in Jesus, while protestants reject the idea of purgatory because Christ has already paid the debt for us with his death and resurrection, and that believing we need to go through purgatory to purify ourselves before entering heaven is saying that the blood of Christ is not enough to wash away our sins. What answer should we give to that statement? Moreover, isn't the whole point of the sacrament of confession to remove the sin separating us from God? What is the definition of forgiveness, then?
Thanks for the comment! Jesus' sacrifice is sufficient to cover all the guilt and punishment of all men. However, man's reception of Christ's gift is finite and often defective. If someone fails to receive God's grace to the degree that God desires, then they will need to receive God's grace in the next life to be forgiven.
Those arguments assuming salvation are made-up reformation nonsense. The concept began with Luther, who, because of extreme psychological problems, could not ever believe that he could achieve a state of grace. As time went on, he morphed his theology to the point where sin carries no cost. This is completely inconsistent with Judeo-Christian belief, but he was extremely charismatic, and many followed him. Can we sin at will? Murder, rape and rob and jet straight to heaven? Nonsense! Church teaching and the scriptures constant exhort us to repent and seek God's grace. There is no fundamentalist or evangelical answer to it - they always hem and haw.
@@smallparticlelinda that's not a great answer. Please read the New Testament letters by Paul. Focus on the parts that deal with salvation. Romans is a good one. Here Paul is teaching the converted Jews about salvation through Jesus Christ and whether or not that is enough.
And Maccabees isn't biblical. Second, they will be saved as one escaping through the flames. Their works will be burned up but they will be saved. This is a verse on eternal security. Faith saves. Not faith + works. Works flow from faith--because you love God. Works don't save. Trent's anathemas be anathema.
Of course purgatory is biblical, not for Protestants that is, but who gave Luther permission to remove 7 books without authority Deut 4:2? Purgatory The Catechism of the Catholic Church teaches: All who die in God’s grace, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven (1030) This seems so simple. It’s common sense. Scripture is very clear when it says, “But nothing unclean shall enter [heaven]” (Rev. 21:27). Hab. 1:13 says, “You [God]… are of purer eyes than to behold evil and cannot look on wrong…” How many of us will be perfectly sanctified at the time of our deaths? I dare say most of us will be in need of further purification in order to enter the gates of heaven after we die, if, please God, we die in a state of grace. In II Maccabees 12:39-46, we discover Judas Maccabeus and members of his Jewish military forces collecting the bodies of some fallen comrades who had been killed in battle. When they discovered these men were carrying “sacred tokens of the idols of Jamnia, which the law forbids the Jews to wear” (vs. 40), Judas and his companions discerned they had died as a punishment for sin. Therefore, Judas and his men “turned to prayer beseeching that the sin which had been committed might be wholly blotted out… He also took up a collection… and sent it to Jerusalem to provide for a sin offering. In doing this he acted very well and honorably… Therefore he made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin.” Matthew 5:25-26 Make friends quickly with your accuser, while you are going with him to court, lest your accuser hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the guard, and you be put in prison; truly I say to you, you will never get out till you have paid the last penny I Corinthians 3:11-15 15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved 1 John 5 16-17 reference to deadly (mortal) sin & non deadly sin (venial) sin Luke 12 27-40 the four servants are treated differently, the faithful one gains Heaven, the second Hell & the other two, purgatory
Yikes…Jesus is our only hope. You must be perfect and we are made perfect only though the righteousness of Christ imputed to us by grace through faith.
The Holy Roman Catholic Church ⛪️ 🙌 👏 🙏 is the only Church for Christ, please 🙏 come home 🏡 🙏 praying for everyone 🙏 💙 ❤️ lighting candles 🕯 for all .......❤❤❤❤❤❤❤
As a former Roman Catholic, I point to the Bible: "And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:" (Hebrews 9.27). As far as "division" goes, the Bible also says: "Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division:” (Luke 12.51) "Unity" is not the goal, truth is the goal.
Thanks for the comment :) Yes, death then judgement. But what if someone is judged to be good, but not entirely? Does God condemn them? That seems harsh. Or does God purify them and bring them to heaven?
Being a former Protestant returning to Gods church. I find it very funny the same people that claim and bash on purgatory, are the same ones that believe in a pre tribulation. Talk about adding to the Bible, (wait they also take 7 books away) sad thing is you show them with history when it started and by who, they go blind and refuse to see the truth. The reason, people argue against purgatory, is because it has been driven by your un/ill informed pastor, that indulgences were sold by the Catholic Church. That’s the way I was brain washed. Lets play on a possibility the church is wrong, guess what with and without purgatory I won.
Purgatory does NOT contradict Hebrews 9:7. The souls in purgatory have already been judged and they are destined to Heaven. However, they need some kind of purification, as "nothing unclean can enter Heaven". Revelation 21:27. And there are many more biblical passages alluding to the reality of purgatory, both in the old and new testaments.
Not only we can pray for the dead, but even those in hell can pray for us.. Review the parable of Dives and Lazarus. When in doubt, open randomly any page of the Bible, and if Jesus is in your heart, you'll find answer.. .. And as usual, Cameron the Thematic man, perfected on this subject.
Where did you get this? That was not the hell of the eternally damned. Hell contains zero hope and prayer is based on hope. However! It does show that the "dead" re not really dead, but being put to death in the flesh, they are made alive in the spirit.
@@HAL9000-su1mz Aren't you supposed to sing for daisy? Anyway..Cray is who ignore this: "Truly I tell you, if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there,' and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you."
The reason I follow the Catholic church is, even though there are a lot of things still I don't understand at this point in time, I decide to trust the wisdom of early patriarchs and holy people instead of my own rationalization, especially since the apostles' authority was given by Christ himself. I still try to learn as much as I can, though, about catholicism and various other religions. It's fascinating how similar some of the teachings and traditions of the Catholic church is to Taoism and Buddhism, who also conduct ceremonies for the dead. They believe some souls are unable to transition/reincarnate to the next life and are thus suffering, so they burn incense and offer sacrifices to give them some type of relief. Like catholic priests, taoist priests also use holy objects as aids in exorcisms. Unfortunately, such similarities is exactly why the protestants accuse catholicism of paganism. Last but not least, the temperament of devout catholics and Buddhists are similar in that they're always gentle, humbler, and more at peace than people of other religions, protestants even. The catholics just seem to have more life and love in their eyes.
@@CameronRiecker Yep. I'm not too sure about the exact terminology either, but basically it's to lessen suffering and aid in transition into the next life. There are even festivals akin to All Souls' Day in Catholicism, in which they collectively pray and conduct ceremonies for the dead. If you study the rituals surrounding the Tabernacle and ark of covenant in Moses' time, you'll also find a lot of similarities between them and eastern religions (Buddhism, Taoism, Shintoism, various sects of ancestral worship etc.)
It is not complicated. Most people believe themselves OK. When the Holy Spirit disabuses you of that and you see your self as a sinner. When you look at your life, and realize that it was all for yourself and that you do not love God, When you realize HE has blessed you and you have dissed Him, admit it. Give up running and ask to be forgiven.
Thanks for the comment! Here's an exerpt from Augustine. Anselm and Thomas both say basically the same thing! And so it pleased God, the Creator and Governor of the universe, that, since the whole body of the angels had not fallen into rebellion, the part of them which had fallen should remain in perdition eternally, and that the other part, which had in the rebellion remained steadfastly loyal, should rejoice in the sure and certain knowledge of their eternal happiness; but that, on the other hand, mankind, who constituted the remainder of the intelligent creation, having perished without exception under sin, both original and actual, and the consequent punishments, should be in part restored, and should fill up the gap which the rebellion and fall of the devils had left in the company of the angels. For this is the promise to the saints, that at the resurrection they shall be equal to the angels of God. www.newadvent.org/fathers/1302.htm
⭐⭐⭐ CHRISTIANS! ⭐⭐⭐ Please consider reporting the trolls who always infest such videos. They harass and insult and add nothing to the conversation. Then offer a prayer for their souls!
*Part 1 of 3* I am going to respond to you in love and not to make fun or talk down to you. So please accept this as a positive thing and not as an attack. Let me try to address every point you make. If you are just going to ignore it, then skip this comment. Hopefully it can be helpful for someone else. 2:53 To enter into heaven you have to be pure. There is some truth to that, but that, no matter what anyone tells you, cannot be done without the life of Jesus Christ, which is what the Holy Spirit actually is. That pureness you are speaking of is done here while you are alive and not after you die. After you die there is nothing more for you. You have sealed your fate. That desire that you speak of, wanting to love God and be pure, that is a state of mind which must be reached while you are living. After you die, you do not go to purgatory, but your body goes back to the earth and your spirit, your life, goes back to God who gave it to you. “Then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and *the spirit will return to God who gave it”* (Ecclesiastes 12:7). 4:55 what ever connects you to point A to point B, that is what Catholics call purgatory. Then purgatory is the time we live here on earth. This is where we make our decision to follow Christ or not. Once we die, we know nothing more and we stay in the grave until the day of the resurrection. “The living know that they will die; but *the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward,* for the memory of them is forgotten. Also *their love, their hatred, and their envy have now perished;* nevermore will they have a share in anything done under the sun. … *There is no work or device or knowledge or wisdom in the grave* where you are going” (Ecclesiastes 9:5, 6, 10). *“The dead do not praise the Lord”* (Psalm 115:17). 5:03 the process by which you become totally clean. Worthiness to get to heaven How can you become clean if you know nothing once you are in the grave? There is no knowledge or wisdom when you die. The only way to get into heaven is to be reborn, as Jesus states. That can only be done while you are alive. 3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, *Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.* 5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, *Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.* 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and *that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.* 7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, *Ye must be born again.* (John 3:3,5-7) That rebirth must be done while you are alive. You cannot be reborn, or even baptized, or have anyone baptize themselves for the decease to save them. Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if *the dead rise not at all?* why are they then baptized for the dead? (1 Corinthians 15:29) We are not worthy and will never be worthy to get into heaven. Our worth comes from the sacrifice that Jesus Christ did for us. In giving up His life for ours, He has given us His spirit, His eternal life, which makes us children of God. And only through Jesus, nothing that we can do ourselves, are we made worthy. Because of this there is a rebirth and now we follow Jesus and keep the commandments of God, because of Who is in us, not of our own efforts. And *this is life eternal, that they might know* thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. (John 17:3) 6:10 as Catholics we believe that Jesus has one body. This body is formed of the saints in heaven, on earth, and purgatory. There is partial truth to this statement. Jesus has one body, the church. However, the dead who are saved are not in heaven right now (there is an exception, but in general). There is also no one in purgatory. Again, read some of the previous verses already stating that after you die there is no knowledge. When Jesus comes there will be a resurrection of the saints as well as the wicket. If people were in heaven right now, then why do they need to be resurrected if they are in heaven already? “Man lies down *and does not rise.* Till the heavens are no more” (Job 14:12). *“All who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth”* (John 5:28, 29). “David … is both dead and buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. … For *David did not ascend into the heavens”* (Acts 2:29, 34). “If I wait, *the grave is mine house”* (Job 17:13 KJV). And *many of them that sleep* in the dust of the earth *shall awake,* some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. (Daniel 12:2)
*Part 2 of 3* 6:42 Benefiting someone in purgatory *Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead,* if the dead rise not at all? *why are they then baptized for the dead?* (1 Corinthians 15:29) 18 For *the grave cannot praise thee,* death can not celebrate thee: *they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth.* 19 The living, the living, he shall praise thee, as I do this day: the father to the children shall make known thy truth. (Isaiah 38:18-19 21 His sons come to honour, and he knoweth it not; and they are brought low, but he perceiveth it not of them. (Job 14:21) 3 Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help. 4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; *in that very day his thoughts perish.* (Psalm 146:3-4) Everyone's salvation is individual. They have to make that choice. No matter how much you pray for someone's salvation, if they do not choose to be saved while alive, there is nothing more you can do after they die. If they were part of the body of Christ while alive, they will be resurrected for the kingdom when Jesus comes the second time. 8:00 when looking at the faith of the early fathers, we are looking at the faith of the apostles. I will have to disagree with that. There was many pagans with their ideas introducing them into the churches. Some of the letters and even Revelation speak about these errors coming into the church. If you want to stay in the straight and narrow and not be deceived, you need to stick with what the bible teaches, not what the early "fathers" taught. You will not see anything in the bible dealing with purgatory. This is perhaps the reason why the Catholic church speak about the "early fathers" since they were what constituted the early Catholic church. Again, stick with the bible. 8:40 Understanding the intercession of the saints now better than before There is no saint that intercedes for us. I've already posted bible verses that show that the dead know nothing and have nothing more under the sun. Here it is again. “The living know that they will die; but *the dead know nothing,* and they have no more reward, for the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, their hatred, and their envy have now perished; *nevermore will they have a share in anything done under the sun.* … *There is no work or device or knowledge or wisdom in the grave where you are going”* (Ecclesiastes 9:5, 6, 10). *“The dead do not praise the Lord”* (Psalm 115:17). We only have one mediator between us and God. There is no saint that can mediate for us. For there is one God, and *one mediator between God and men,* the man *Christ Jesus;* (1 Timothy 2:5) Can we pray to the dead, which is what these saints are since they are not in heaven? 10 *There shall not be found among you any one that* maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch. 11 Or a charmer, or a *consulter with familiar spirits,* or a wizard, or a necromancer. 12 *For all that do these things are an abomination unto the Lord:* and because of these abominations the Lord thy God doth drive them out from before thee. (Deuteronomy 18:11-12) 13 *So Saul died for his transgression* which he committed against the Lord, even against the word of the Lord, which he kept not, and also *for asking counsel of one that had a familiar spirit, to enquire of it;* 14 *And enquired not of the Lord: therefore he slew him,* and turned the kingdom unto David the son of Jesse. (1 Corinthians 10:13-14 King Saul enquired of the prophet Samuel, which was a prophet of God, which is considered a saint in today's standards, after he died to intercede for him. The result was his death. The Lord ensured that Saul was to die. 12:30 ish this whole idea about still being punished even after you have been accepted. I won't go into this whole idea about pennants to bring you closer to God. This is already long as it is, but I will say this one thing. Nothing that you do will make up for your wrongs. It is a free gift that God gives without asking for anything in return, except you follow Jesus. 1 O foolish Galatians, *who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth,* before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? 2 This only would I learn of you, *Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?* 3 *Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?* 4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain. 5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, *doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?* 6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. 7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. 8 And the scripture, foreseeing that *God would justify the heathen through faith,* preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. 9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham. 10 *For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse:* for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. 11 But that *no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.* 12 And *the law is not of faith:* but, The man that doeth them shall live in them. 13 *Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law,* being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: 14 That *the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.* (Galatians 3:1-14) Do not get these passages confused and think it has nothing to do with pennants. It certainly does. Isn't pennants doing something to get back into good grace with God so that you could be saved? That is a form of works and not faith. You are doing something to try to bring you in good grace, to get you back on track. It is faith in Christ that gives you the promise of the Spirit, which is eternal life. Do not confuse what I am saying with that we do not need to follow the law of God, for we must definitely do. But the law does not save, it is a consequence of being saved. That example you gave with your son is not how God works. Either Jesus paid your "dues" for you or He did not. 20 Therefore *by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight:* for by the law is the knowledge of sin. 21 But *now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested,* being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 22 *Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ* unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: 23 *For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;* 24 *Being justified FREELY by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:* 25 Whom God hath set forth to be *a propitiation through faith in his blood,* to declare his righteousness *for the remission of sins* that are past, through the forbearance of God; 26 *To declare,* I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and *the justifier* of him which believeth in Jesus. (Romans 3:20-26) Justification and grace is free. The consequences you speak of do not come from God if you truly are repentant of your sins and believe. The consequences come from your life choices. But you are forgiven and God doesn't punish you for it because His Son took upon Himself that punishment for you.
*Part 3 of 3* What you said before and what you say here, well a lot of verses already provided tell you that the dead have no knowledge or are aware and neither can they praise the lord. There house is forever the grave until Jesus comes back. Have you considered that their statements contradict the bible? 23:02 did the church that Christ set up get corrupted so quickly? The answer is absolutely yes. Even during the time of Paul iniquity was abounding, errors were being taught which Paul had to go and fix. I already gave you were Paul tells you that baptizing for the dead was wrong. He was very forceful because of that error was entering the church. For *the mystery of iniquity doth already work:* only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. (2 Thessalonians 2:7) Let me give you some quick examples of the church going corrupt right after being established from the bible. Right after Israel witness God talking on the Mt Sinai the ten commandments, as soon as Moses left they had Aaron make them some idols of fake gods. As soon as Israel was established in Canaan, after Moses death, they went after false gods. As soon as Israel saw all the works of God (the plagues, the opening of the red sea) they wanted to go back to Egypt. Even while God was working in Israel visibly and Moses was with them, they worshipped false gods. So lasting 100-200 years as you stated before being corrupted, even though Paul said the corruption was already in his days, that is actually pretty good compared to the other examples I gave you. Funny you said that Martin Luther fixed the church. Did you know that Martin Luther believed, was passionate, about paying for his sins like you believe, and his fix was to realize that your sins were already paid for and that it was wrong to think you can pay for your sins? He went against the Catholic church teachings after he read and understood the bible. Unless that was a slip in your part, you should consider that. 24:30 the apostles taught to pray for the dead, for their salvation basically. Not one single verse in all the New Testament do you see that. Even more, Paul was completely against it. 25:20 not to pray for the martyrs because they go straight to heaven Interesting thought since the Catholic church, the same history timeline you said they could not be wrong, killed the most amounts of Christians in history ever. These Christians that were tortured and killed are the true martyrs and they did not believe the Catholic teachings. Just look it up for yourself. I know this is long, so let me wrap it up. We do not work with grace. Grace is given to us. Except for a couple of verses did you notice how all your teaching actually did not come from the bible but from these "church fathers"? They being Catholic? Did you compare what they said with all the verses I posted on here? Do you see that they contradict each other? I hope you do. Let me explain why the purgatory idea is all about and where it came from. I hope you accept this as me trying to wake you up and not just insulting the Papacy, who controls the Catholic church. The purgatory idea came from paganism, mythology. The Catholic church used that idea as a way to control people and a way to get money from them. They took away the scriptures from the masses and left them dark on the subject. I feel it is still the same today. Except for a couple of verses, all your ideas about it came from someone who taught it to you and it appears they also did not use the bible. It is man made doctrines. How do you think that the Papacy had so much control back in the day when it ruled most of the world? It kept the world deceived through mysticism. It is still doing it today. I truly hope that your ideas are at least challenged with all the bible evidence I have given. If you want to study more on this feel free to let me know. There are ways we can do this. I even have a spanish TH-cam channel dedicated to bible studies which I can use for english studies as well. Thanks for putting this video out here. I believe Jesus is calling.
Thanks for the thoughtful comments! If we know nothing after we are in the grave, why do Lazarus and the Rich Man know what is going on on earth after they die?
I’m a regular person. I also left the Catholic church because it just didn’t make sense and it shouldn’t take a 1/2 hour discussion to understand that TMH is all knowing and would realize what state we would be in right before we die. Surely He would consider EVERYTHING. Grace Also, when someone makes a HUGE misunderstanding, there’s probably more misunderstandings right behind it. For example. My daughter went to the same Catholic schools and in 3rd grade she brought home a card that illustrated which SAINT to PRAY TO in times of need. I know she was confused because she asked “ Why do we need all these people when we already have Jesus? “ why can’t we just ask Him? Profound , I thought, coming from an 8 year old. With Jesus you don’t need a middleman. Saint Jude Thaddeus Saint Joseph Saint Rita of Cascia Anthony of Padua Dymphna Saint Philomena Thérèse of Lisieux Saint Anne Joseph of Cupertino Saint Joseph the Worker Saint Sebastian Expeditus Gregory Thaumaturgus Saint Peter Raphael Saint Teresa of Avila Saint Michael the Archangel Saint Francis de Sales Saint Colette Jesus’ mother I STILL don’t get good works. Mother Theresa performed good works…. As far as we know. However, from what I understand, she thought it was good that the poor suffered ( in essence) However, when she was sick, she was sick , she went to proper hospital. She received googols of money in donations but those that she supervised barely ate. She had balanced meals. So was she saying that she didn’t need to suffer because of the outward good works she performed. Was she saying she was better and more deserving than the poor? Confession: There is no mention of confession to a priest in scripture. This is a man-made idea. The Bible says we are to confess to one another so that we can be a support to one another. The only person who can forgive and absolve sin is Christ Jesus. And as He forgives us, we are to forgive one another and not carry any grudges towards one another.
Confession actually goes back to the Jewish temple religion. Jews of Jesus’s day had to confess their sins in the temple on the day of atonement once a year. Why do you think the Jews had sin offerings? Also, confession is mentioned in the New Testament. Jesus actually gives the apostles the ability to forgive sins and you also have followers being commanded to confess their sins.
@@CameronRiecker 493 Said it very well. With the Catholics Jesus Christ didn't pay the full price for sin. Now you have work it out in the fire after death, and if the friends of the deceased have masses said for them. With the added proviso of the shekel been added for the mass that well help to reduce their time in purgatory. Talk about blackmail. You have got to be mentally deluded to believe that this stopover in hell is anything but that. The Bible said Absent from the body and present with the Lord,2 Corinthians 5:8-21
By clicking my mouse to go to other TH-cam videos your channel just happened to come up and your title appeared to me to say with confidence "THIS is Why Catholics Believe In Purgatory (and you should too)." It got me interested to hear more of what you have to say seems to tell me you have the answer when I've heard it so many times from others and they could not come up with the answer after I debated with them. I said to myself what made this guy think he could convince me, and with the kind of attitude of “I dare you to prove me wrong.” Well, I decided to comment and give you my reason to dispute the notion that such a place called purgatory is not biblical. I was curious to find out if he is like the others who have failed or if he can convince me so I decided to take the challenge. I'm going to warn you I'm very knowledgeable on the Bible and the subject of purgatory and have debunked this lie many times before and won all the time.
First of all, let's start by commenting on something you said about Mother Teresa. At time stamp 4:03 you said that she died in incredible purity sure shows you don't know what perfection looks like. I hope you will understand what I'm going to tell you and hope you will man up to be strong enough to hear my point of view and not cut me off. I'm not here to offend you but only to tell you the truth to set you free of things you are saying need to be correct. If you can bear with me for a second and not get angry and quit you will see where I'm coming from and where I'm going with this. Hope you will respond by giving your side of what I said and we can go on from there. I don't think you Catholics and the Vatican know exactly the most important thing Mother Teresa failed to do was to tell them about Jesus Christ that He is The Only One to make it to God the Father and that you must be born again to be saved and she never told anyone about it how to be saved. Here are three passages in the Bible that Jesus said on how to make it to Heaven. John 14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me. John 3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.” John 3:5-7 Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again." The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.” What Mother Teresa did is that she denies that Jesus Christ was the only true way to Salvation and says to them your religion or whatever kind of beliefs you have you still will make it to the Kingdom of God. That is not true and you know she was not telling the truth and you think she is a saint. Here is exactly what she said in her own words. When she was asked whether she converted, she answered, ‘Yes, I convert you to be a better Hindu, or a better Muslim, or a better Protestant, or a better Catholic, or a better Parsee, or a better Sikh, or a better Buddhist. And after you have found God, it is for you to do what God wants you to do.” Which god is she talking about? The god of Islam, the god of Buddhism, the god of Sikh, etc. She should have said: “I convert you to become a better believer in Christ who is the only One who can save you and to grow to become a better Christian because you cannot make it on your own with your religion. No religion will save you it is only through Jesus Christ because He is the only one who died on the cross on your behalf who shed His blood that takes away your sin and rosed again for you to have eternal life. No one has done what Jesus did on that cross. Another quote from her that is not true: "I see somebody dying, I pick him up. I find somebody hungry, I give him food. He can love and be loved. I don’t look at his color, I don’t look at his religion. I don’t look at anything. Every person whether he is Hindu, Muslim, or Buddhist, is my brother, my sister,” Sorry to say Mother Teresa if they are not Christians or His disciples they cannot be your brothers and sisters. You have to be in Christ and do the will of His Father to become a brother and sister in Christ. For you for not telling them the truth you are not a Christian but a child of the devil for lying to them. If she believed that and kept saying that to all the ones she looked after until their dying days and did not tell them the truth that Jesus is the only way to the Father by lying to them and saying you can still make it to Heaven even with the belief of your religion then I would have to say she herself is not saved but now she is tormented in a temporal hell called Hades in the same place as the ones who died under her care where they will all end up in hell at their judgment day before the white throne judgment of Jesus Christ. She let them die the second death which is the spiritual death of damnation. She died in her sin therefore she is not a saint. The wage of sin is death but the gift of God is eternal life in Jesus Christ. All liars will have their part in the lake of fire the Bible says. She didn’t care enough about spreading the Gospel. She claimed she was serving Christ, but where was the push to convert to Jesus Christ and Christianity? While tending the suffering bodies of the poor, she left their souls to rot. Matthew 7:21-23 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?" And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!" Sorry to be blunt with you here. I don't know if you think twice before talking because you do not make any sense. You call those who are in purgatory saints. How can they be saints if they have sinned and why are they there in the first place if they are saints? The reason for them to be there is to get purified. Calling them saints means they are pure and holy and should be in heaven and not in purgatory. If they are in purgatory like you love to say there is such a place, they are not united in the same body of Jesus Christ and the grace of God with those who are saints. Come on my friend think a little further than your nose. You cannot mix the two and put them together it does not work that way. Jesus will separate the sheep (saints) from the goat (the wicked sinners). If some are departed of some uncleanness they are not going to purgatory but going to hell. There is no mercy after you die mercy is offered to you while you are still alive here on earth. You cannot pray for those who are dead whatever kind of life they live good or bad their destiny is fixed. Heaven or hell. Besides the Bible calls it necromancy to pray to the dead and it is a sin of sorcery to do it. If one is going to hell you cannot pray to get him or her out of there and why should you pray for the ones who are saved you don't need to they are already saved. There is an appointed time for men to die once and after this comes the judgment. Where is purgatory in that passage or for that matter how about the rich man and Lazarus where is purgatory in that one also? The only time you can pray for someone is only the ones who are still alive on this earth and they can pray for you who is alive also.
Thanks for the comment! If you reject Mother Theresa as an example of purity at the point of death, perhaps we could use Paul as an example instead. My intent was not to speculate about Mother Theresa's holiness, merely to point out that some people depart this earth very pure.
@@CameronRiecker Don't compare Miss Teresa with Apostle Paul. He repented and forsaken his sin with a godly sorrow and a contrite heart. He departed this earth preaching, spreading the gospel, and defending Christ and died for Him while Teresa did not repent of her sins did not share the gospel, and departed this earth by denying Christ that is why she did not die very pure but as an unrepented sinner and a child of the devil. Matthew 10:32-33 “Therefore whoever confesses Me before men, him I will also confess before My Father who is in heaven. But whoever denies Me before men, him I will also deny before My Father who is in heaven. Jeremiah 17:10 I, the Lord, search the heart, I test the mind, Even to give every man according to his ways, According to the fruit of his doings. Yes, I reject her like she rejected Christ and will go to hell for it. Make no mistake about it: to deny Jesus, is to repudiate him, and to declare in words only that he is the Son of God incarnate, that he died for sinners and that he did rise from the dead, but completely deny that he is not the only way to the Father will results in her the eternal damnation in hell. Anyone and everyone who denies the Son shall himself/herself be denied eternal salvation in heaven. Look very deeply at this religion it is not what you were told it to be. It is a man-made religion, not a Christ-centered church. They have deceived you like they already have deceived you with Teresa and how many more deception they already told you. I could point you more. Leave it before it is too late. Hope you will read more of what I had to say below.
@@CameronRiecker I have troubleshot the issue. It appears that any comments with links do not work. Please do a search on TH-cam for this exact title. revelation 1412 Luke 16 - Imad Awde (VIC) Should be the first video that comes out. 8 years old. Like I said before in the previous comments that were not posting, I wrote some more but I do not want to repeat it right now. Check out the video and we can go from there. I have a question though. The rich man of the story, is he in purgatory or hell according to Catholic tradition?
Even Catholics are willing to say that the rich man is in hell rather than purgatory, especially since it speaks of a great chasm that none can cross. Other Catholics try to argue that there is some level of love with the rich man wanting to warn his brothers and there can’t be love in hell, but we should note this is a parable and not a direct teaching, and it is in fact likely to have love in hell, albeit disordered, meaning that the “love” the rich man has in favor of his brothers rather than any others is more like discrimination rather than the supernatural willing the good of the other, because basically everyone loves their family.
@@killianmiller6107 I am glad you realized that this is a parable. Are you saying that purgatory and hell are real? Like people are there right now? Or are you just explaining what a Catholic might actually consider?
Jesus saves us baptized with The Holy Spirit and Holy Water from original sin. Sins committed after Baptism have to be confessed, we have to receive absolution and serve our Penance to be forgiven by God. That’s why He instituted the Sacrament of Reconciliation (Confession). 2 Cor 5:18-20, Jn 20:21-23, Mt 16:18-19, 18:17-18. If we die in mortal sin, we chose to be separated from God. He honors our choices for eternity. There’s no hope left. If we die in Venial sin, we have to be purged of it to enter Heaven, as nothing impure can enter. Purgatory is a complete cleansing of our souls on the way to Heaven. 1 Cor 3:15, Mt5:25-26, 1 Pet 3:18-20, 1 Jn 5:16-17, Jn 19:11, Rev 21:27, 2 Macc 12:43-46
I was raised Catholic… schools etc.. Why I left? Because peoples opinions ( St. Augustine) suggest that Jesus sacrifice was INSUFFICIENT. We are saved by GRACE. Purgatory, like many other Catholic dogmas, is based on a misunderstanding of the nature of Christ’s sacrifice. Catholics view the Mass / Eucharist as a re-presentation of Christ’s sacrifice because they fail to understand that Jesus’ once-for-all sacrifice was absolutely and perfectly sufficient (Hebrews 7:27). Catholics view meritorious works as contributing to salvation due to a failure to recognize that Jesus’ sacrificial payment has no need of additional “contribution” (Ephesians 2:8-9). Similarly, Purgatory is understood by Catholics as a place of cleansing in preparation for heaven because they do not recognize that because of Jesus’ sacrifice, we are already cleansed, declared righteous, forgiven, redeemed, reconciled, and sanctified. The very idea of Purgatory and the doctrines that are often attached to it (prayer for the dead, indulgences, meritorious works on behalf of the dead, etc.) fail to recognize that Jesus’ death was sufficient to pay the penalty for ALL of our sins. Jesus, who was God incarnate (John 1:1, 14), paid an infinite price for our sin. Jesus died for our sins (1 Corinthians 15:3). Jesus is the atoning sacrifice for our sins (1 John 2:2). To limit Jesus’ sacrifice to atoning for original sin or sins committed before salvation is an attack on the Person and Work of Jesus Christ. If we must, in order to be saved, pay for, atone for, or suffer because of our sins, then Jesus’ death was not a perfect, complete, and sufficient sacrifice. For believers, after death is to be "away from the body and at home with the Lord" (2 Corinthians 5:6-8; Philippians 1:23). Notice that this does not say "away from the body, in Purgatory with the cleansing fire." No, because of the perfection, completion, and sufficiency of Jesus’ sacrifice, we are immediately in the Lord’s presence after death, fully cleansed, free from sin, glorified, perfected, and ultimately sanctified.
See Colossians 1:24 "24 Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I complete what is lacking[e] in Christ’s afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church, "
Thanks for the comment! No Augustine was not inspired the way the authors of the Scriptures were. However, he is an accurate reflection of the faith of the Apostles.
@@CameronRiecker "However, he is an accurate reflection of the faith of the Apostles." Well, we can say that about anyone who opens the Bible. I can say that about Luther, and Calvin. Some would say Benny Hinn. In the end, I disregard Augustine in the sense that I prororitize the Scriptures. Augustine, like any other Bible teacher, including my pastor, are all placed under what the Scriptures already say.
@@CameronRiecker He's a highly educated teacher, like my pastor, like many Bible teachers, but he isn't to be elevated any higher than that - a Bible teacher. I do think he was brilliant as a thinker, but nonetheless was yet under the authority of Scripture. That he preceded us by more than a millenia has no bearing on anything; there were false teachers early on even though "they were closer to the Apostles than the rest of us." Keep in mind that many of the 'early church fathers' rejected the Trinity until Athanasius spoke up and told them to search.......The Scriptures. Which they did. Augustine is helpful like many of my pastors that I've had, but I didn't agree with everything with all and every one of my pastors.
I know purgatory is real because I saw two people that died in my dreams one a suicide the other just a bad person in life. I prayed for both offering my forgiveness to the bad person. My other point is that without the Catholic faith we would had never learned of Jesus.
@@CameronRiecker If your definition of perfect is professing Christ then that completely contradicts your whole video and the thought that anybody could be in purgatory. Because with that logic then either you go to straight hell for unbelief or to Heaven for believing.
I don't think that this would communicate the idea to Protestants, and it would reinforce the idea that the concepts are irreconcilably different between Orthodox and Roman Catholics. The stereotype of purgatory is: We have punishments due. "Punishment" is heard as "retribution" that must be satisfied. God cannot remit the punishments, even if he loves you, because he is holy. So he hands you over to suffer retribution till his sense of justice is satisfied. The problem Protestants have is that salvation is entirely a matter of punishment, debt, and satisfying God's justice by way of it. If you still have an outstanding debt or punishments to be meted out, as soon as they hear that, they hear "Jesus wasn't enough." For instance, with your illustration with your son, relationships have never been repaired by any sort of punishment at any point in history. It reinforces the image of "Jesus wasn't enough" since they believe that broken relationship is exactly what Jesus repaired, because we could not. For the angels, it would provide exactly the opposite message of what you intend, because it would conflict with how they read the Parable of the Prodigal Son and the Parable of the Workers. The son who was loyal is angry the returned son is welcomed, and the father tries to console him about receiving him back. I can guarantee a Protestant listening to this hears why they shouldn't believe in purgatory. For Orthodox, we tend to chafe at the idea of a place of purgatory, and I have tried to explain it doesn't have to be a literal place but can be a metaphor for a state. Most Orthodox consider heaven, hell, and purgatory the exact same thing: the presence of God. It torments the wicked, purifies the impure, and delights the righteous. Different ideas prevailed east and west. The punishment isn't aimed at satisfying the relationship by paying the debt so much as it is repairing the relationship by correcting disordered desires. It is chastisement and a sort of medical treatment. I don't think you accomplished the aims you were aiming for (and, since I have defended the idea to others, I am not in disagreement about purification after death). "Justification" doesn't always have to do with legal justice, and that's the language used. It can, just as easily be simply making someone right, correcting. For instance, when Phineas thrust his spear through the man and woman, he did not propitiate God (God cannot be propitiated); what he did was purify Israel by removing the wickedness. Likewise, if you say that God is correcting us, or chastising us, because we have wicked desires in our souls, that we still cling to them, and they must go, but God does not violate our free will, you communicate the same basic idea, but the entire tone and image changes both of God and the purification.
Thanks for the comment! Yes, Jesus' sacrifice is sufficient for the salvation of the whole world, but that infinite grace has a finite reception. That's why people still sin after baptism.
Praying for the dead (which is absolutely part of the Judeo-Christian tradition) does not equal the Roman doctrine of Purgatory, or the system of temporal punishment, merits, and indulgences associated with it. It just doesn't. Most of what we read in the Fathers has to do with purification prior to the final judgment, for the sake of the "peace" of the souls awaiting Resurrection and Judgement. It's not the sort of transactional system of merits and indulgences that had developed by the late Middle Ages. It seems to me that Rome overstepped in its understanding of Purgatory, and left behind the Tradition of the first millennium.
@@CameronRiecker I agree there is purification, but this doesn’t then equal a third spiritual reality that functions in the way that Rome describes “Purgatory;” specifically the idea of having to be punished for all sins committed because of a sense of Gods justice, and that this punishment can be alleviated by a system of indulgences or merits prescribed by the Roman pontiff. This language is much too legalistic, and isn’t in line with the Christian Tradition or the Scriptures.
@@CameronRiecker you can simply ask yourself, if Purgatory as described by Rome is the Apostolic tradition, why do none of the other Apostolic churches share this doctrine? Neither Ethiopians, Copts or Greeks recognize it as Apostolic teaching. One is forced to admit that it is a later innovation (Rome would say, a “development”). So you’re looking at sources from the Fathers trying to defend a doctrine that simply didn’t exist as such until much later. If it was part of the Apostolic Tradition, you’d find it in the other Apostolic churches (whom Rome herself recognizes as Apostolic).
As far as I know, other apostolic churches do believe in something like purgatory whether they want to admit their similarities with Rome or not. For instance, toll houses in Orthodoxy. Also do we consider purgatory a “third spiritual reality?” It is intrinsically tied to heaven and will cease to exist when the last soul leaves for heaven. Purgatory is a reflection of God’s justice as well as his mercy, since sending venial sinners to hell is unmerciful but letting their sins and recompense go is unjust. Justice has to do with law. Everyone who believes God is just has to accept some dimension of “legalism.” However we don’t profess purgatory and related doctrine to be a strictly legal endeavor. Your sins incur the eternal guilt of offending God as well as a temporal guilt of offending his creation; Jesus saves us from the eternal guilt which opens the door to heaven for us, but God in his wisdom can still apply temporal penance to us for our good. Just think what happens if forgiveness was always a blanket wiping away of all guilt: I steal someone’s wallet, murder them, and then slander their name, then I genuinely repent and confess and god forgives me, THEREFORE I no longer need to return the money I stole, go to prison, or restore his good name. The penance for these sins actually acts to sanctify us to complete our repentance (since if you don’t do it just how repentant are you), and it’s not just a top down punishment to appease legal justice. Indulgences (properly understood) can help alleviate these penances through the intercession of others, through works of mercy, etc, because these do the same thing as your penance in sanctifying you.
Thanks for the comment! Praying for the lost does not benefit them in any way. We pray for all the faithful departed. Even if we don't know for certainty their eternal fate.
@@CameronRiecker " Even if we don't know for certainty their eternal fate." But Purgatory are for the saved and only the saved, correct? Why pray for them if they're already headed to heaven? And actually, Scripture doesn't say how or what way we are to pray for the dead. In other words, 'praying for the dead' isn't a proof text for Purgatory.
@@soulosxpiotov7280yes, they are technically saved but they're not in fully communion with God, hence the "process of purification". We (on earth) pray for them to be accepted in heaven asap. Because we don't know how long them soul bound to purification
@@kusumoanang "pray for them to be accepted in heaven asap." What is within the true believer that isn't 'accepted' to dwell in heaven? If Christ had already provided everything, including His righteousness and even His glory, and it is He who sanctifies, what is left that is 'unacceptable'?
Protestant will reject Purgatory based on their understanding of imputed righteousness. However imputed righteousness is a concept that only exists since the 16th century. The concept of purgatory on the other hand goes back to ancient Judaism.
Purgatory The Catechism of the Catholic Church teaches: All who die in God’s grace, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven (1030) This seems so simple. It’s common sense. Scripture is very clear when it says, “But nothing unclean shall enter [heaven]” (Rev. 21:27). Hab. 1:13 says, “You [God]… are of purer eyes than to behold evil and cannot look on wrong…” How many of us will be perfectly sanctified at the time of our deaths? I dare say most of us will be in need of further purification in order to enter the gates of heaven after we die, if, please God, we die in a state of grace. In II Maccabees 12:39-46, we discover Judas Maccabeus and members of his Jewish military forces collecting the bodies of some fallen comrades who had been killed in battle. When they discovered these men were carrying “sacred tokens of the idols of Jamnia, which the law forbids the Jews to wear” (vs. 40), Judas and his companions discerned they had died as a punishment for sin. Therefore, Judas and his men “turned to prayer beseeching that the sin which had been committed might be wholly blotted out… He also took up a collection… and sent it to Jerusalem to provide for a sin offering. In doing this he acted very well and honorably… Therefore he made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin.” Matthew 5:25-26 Make friends quickly with your accuser, while you are going with him to court, lest your accuser hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the guard, and you be put in prison; truly I say to you, you will never get out till you have paid the last penny I Corinthians 3:11-15 15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved 1 John 5 16-17 reference to deadly (mortal) sin & non deadly sin (venial) sin Luke 12 27-40 the four servants are treated differently, the faithful one gains Heaven, the second Hell & the other two, purgatory
Gods One Only True Apostolic Catholic Church is His Bride. He gave our first leader(Pope) The Keys to the Kingdom of Heaven (His authority, power, doctrine, Sacraments and Teachings); that He prayed everyone would remain in. He rebuked the Pharisees and Scribes for making their own versions of His, like all 44,000 other Christian Churches and other Faiths have done. He taught if we don’t remain in His Church, Doctrine, receiving His Sacraments and Teachings, we will not have Him and never enter Heaven. Mt 23:1-39, Lk 11:37-54, Jn 1:42, 21:15-17, Mt 16:18-19, 10:1-4, Mk3:14-19, Eph 2:19-22, 1 Cor 12:28, Acts 20:28, Lk 22:28-32, 1 Pet 2:6-9 Remain in His Catholic Church, Doctrine & Gospel-Jn 10:16, 17:20-26, Eph 4:4-6, 2 JN1:9, 2 Thess3:6-16, Rom16:17, Heb 13:9, Gal 1:6-9, 2 Cor 11:3-4 Sacraments-Jn 3:5, Act 22:16, 2 Cor 5:18-20, Jn 20:21-23, Mt 18:17-18, Jn 6:51-59, 1 Cor 11:23-29, Eph 1:13, 2Cor 1:21-22, Mt19:4-6, Col 3:17-19, 2Cor5:20, 1:25-29, Lk22:28-32, Jm 5:16, Lk10:34 are a few pertinent verses.
Thanks for the comment! Where do you think Augustine and Gregory learned about it? I don't think they just made it up. I think they learned it from the Tradition of the Apostles.
Purgatory The Catechism of the Catholic Church teaches: All who die in God’s grace, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven (1030) This seems so simple. It’s common sense. Scripture is very clear when it says, “But nothing unclean shall enter [heaven]” (Rev. 21:27). Hab. 1:13 says, “You [God]… are of purer eyes than to behold evil and cannot look on wrong…” How many of us will be perfectly sanctified at the time of our deaths? I dare say most of us will be in need of further purification in order to enter the gates of heaven after we die, if, please God, we die in a state of grace. In II Maccabees 12:39-46, we discover Judas Maccabeus and members of his Jewish military forces collecting the bodies of some fallen comrades who had been killed in battle. When they discovered these men were carrying “sacred tokens of the idols of Jamnia, which the law forbids the Jews to wear” (vs. 40), Judas and his companions discerned they had died as a punishment for sin. Therefore, Judas and his men “turned to prayer beseeching that the sin which had been committed might be wholly blotted out… He also took up a collection… and sent it to Jerusalem to provide for a sin offering. In doing this he acted very well and honorably… Therefore he made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin.” Matthew 5:25-26 Make friends quickly with your accuser, while you are going with him to court, lest your accuser hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the guard, and you be put in prison; truly I say to you, you will never get out till you have paid the last penny I Corinthians 3:11-15 15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved 1 John 5 16-17 reference to deadly (mortal) sin & non deadly sin (venial) sin Luke 12 27-40 the four servants are treated differently, the faithful one gains Heaven, the second Hell & the other two, purgatory
No, that’s literally the doctrine of purgatory, everyone who is there has been saved by the sacrifice of Jesus. The problem is that while they are justified, they are not yet perfectly sanctified for heaven.
Do you want to end the war? To end the war humanity has to talk to try to understand each other. There is only one truth, one reality, one God, and different people understand God or reality differently. Have you thought I exist and I have feelings and I disagree with you? I claim I have discovered the nature of God, do you think I could be joking talking about God? God is the most important, nothing is more important than God. Do you agree with me? Do you think is it possible to be joking talking about God? God is not a joke, God is the intelligent creator of the universe, God is the reason you exist and you experience reality. Do you agree with me that even if you don't agree with my God, even if you think my God doesn’t exist, I am infinitely serious talking about the only that matters and exists for me? How do you talk about your God, do you talk in good or bad faith? Do you talk about your God to create peace or to agitate? The police have to protect Speaker's Corner in Hyde Park in London and it's a place where people go to talk and listen. Speaker's Corner is a sacred place, the most respected place, the most needed place, a location to speak freely about whatever. My work has been written and said in Speaker's Corner. Only for Speaker's Corner London is the best city in the world. Is there any other city with Speaker's Corner?. Speaker's Corner is my favorite place in London. I want to promote Speaker's Corner offering my opinion. Go to Speaker's Corner in Hyde Park in the center of London on Sundays to witness people talking and listening about subjects and messages that are important for the talkers. People interact in Speaker's Corner. Do you trust me? Speaker's Corner is the solution to all the problems. I want to debate because God is necessary and I still haven't won a debate in my life. If you accept God is necessary would you accept humanity are deceived believing because too many people lie too much? I just need time to win the debate. My truth is atheism is a logical fallacy that assumes God is the religious idea of the creator of the creation to conclude wrongly no creator exists because a particular idea of God doesn’t exist. The true God is Spinoza's God. Did Spinoza explain well the nature of God? Do you want to be created or uncreated? It is better if an intelligent entity created the universe because without God reality doesn't matter, life is meaningless and death is terrifyingly the end. Logically the creation or what has a beginning of existence was created from what is eternal or creator. The originator created what has a beginning of existence. God is Time because created the universe from self from an eternal existence uncaused. God is Time and Space transforming because regardless of when the universe was created God existed always before. That's a fact, 100% sure, absolute certainty. God is impossible to understand precisely because created the universe after existing forever. God created self, God is a metaphysical entity with the capacity to experience the creation before it was created. God created love and hate, so God before creating the universe knew what is the experience of love and hate, kind of to the infinite. Is it possible to experience infinite love and hate? Can Allah or Jesus experience infinite love and hate? The creator of love and hate is surely incredible. Sometimes I think if there could be more than one Time or God. Two independent Times with two independent universes, with two different realities that don't mix or know about each other. Let's not overcomplicate things, because what is important is to understand we were created. If we were created atheism is false. If you think about what I just said you would feel incredibly better. And the Quran was never memorized. What would be the future of atheism if atheists continue to refuse to ask for proof that the Quran was memorized?. Thank you.
I appreciate that you communicate respectfully. However, as with your other video, I agree with the premise, just not the conclusion. The problem with purgatory is the same as the idea of limbo. There is simply no reason to believe this place exists. This place of temporal fire, has no basis in sound theology. Thomas Aquinas, as smart of a man as he was, had a really flawed justification for the belief in purgatory. One thing he didn't account for is the second judgement. If there are two judgements, how does purgatory make sense? Because you're handed your time in temporal fire and then you leave. There would be no reason for a judgement of the dead if that were the case. Purgatory is entirely incompatible with the final judgement. The only things that can truly save a sinner after death are prayers and God's mercy. Not temporal fire.
Thanks for the comment! The finial judgement is a judgement of the human race as a whole. Since the human race is not done yet, it's not time to be judged! I don't see why believing that there is a place of purification after this life is incompatible with the final judgement.
@@CameronRiecker thank you for responding. So as a former catholic, currently moving towards Orthodoxy I have heard both arguments. I can't say that I've heard that statement about the second judgement before. Could you possibly elaborate on that? Because the second judgement, the final judgement is supposed to be a judgement of the living and the dead. There's just no reason to judge the dead if everyone's first judgement is final. So, could you explain what exactly you mean by that? Because I feel like I'm not understanding what you're referring to there.
My thoughts are this are fairly simple... So Jesus Christ is not enough? His Death on the cross is insufficient to save us from our sin... So we have to suffer in Purgatory until we are forgiven over time through what? good works? Or we get bought out of there by someone? So we are saved by ours or others good works not the Son of God... Still not convinced of Purgatory.
im not a member of the catholic church, but i have many friends in the church and have done some learning of it myself so someone else correct me if im wrong, but from what ive been told that Jesus is definitely enough. His blood forgives us of our sins but it doesnt take away from the fact we are still human and inherently sinful, and heaven and sin cannot mix and so its kinda where souls go to be purified for heaven. no one in purgatory isnt saved, its just that not everyones soul is pure enough for heaven right away. like i said someone correct me if im wrong cause im still learning
@@CameronRiecker only if we reject Christ and never repent after receiving Him. Christ's sacrifice was sufficient for all time. Future and Past. God loves us so much that we can choose to be apart from him and he will not force us into his presence... But if we do want to be with Him... Sorry Christ got you this far but gotta repent and feel infinite regret and pain like he did in purgatory? Separated from everyone... Including God if purgatory is to be believed... Sounds like He'll to me. I see where you are coming from but it sounds like God's grace is finite if purgatory is real. I have grace for you but you are too dirty and sinful for my own Son's sacrifice to be with me... I see the Justice but not much Mercy. God perfectly balances both. And purgatory just seems like extra punishment to me.
Purgatory The Catechism of the Catholic Church teaches: All who die in God’s grace, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven (1030) This seems so simple. It’s common sense. Scripture is very clear when it says, “But nothing unclean shall enter [heaven]” (Rev. 21:27). Hab. 1:13 says, “You [God]… are of purer eyes than to behold evil and cannot look on wrong…” How many of us will be perfectly sanctified at the time of our deaths? I dare say most of us will be in need of further purification in order to enter the gates of heaven after we die, if, please God, we die in a state of grace. In II Maccabees 12:39-46, we discover Judas Maccabeus and members of his Jewish military forces collecting the bodies of some fallen comrades who had been killed in battle. When they discovered these men were carrying “sacred tokens of the idols of Jamnia, which the law forbids the Jews to wear” (vs. 40), Judas and his companions discerned they had died as a punishment for sin. Therefore, Judas and his men “turned to prayer beseeching that the sin which had been committed might be wholly blotted out… He also took up a collection… and sent it to Jerusalem to provide for a sin offering. In doing this he acted very well and honorably… Therefore he made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin.” Matthew 5:25-26 Make friends quickly with your accuser, while you are going with him to court, lest your accuser hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the guard, and you be put in prison; truly I say to you, you will never get out till you have paid the last penny I Corinthians 3:11-15 15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved 1 John 5 16-17 reference to deadly (mortal) sin & non deadly sin (venial) sin Luke 12 27-40 the four servants are treated differently, the faithful one gains Heaven, the second Hell & the other two, purgatory
@@geoffjs Only the clean will enter Heaven. Got it. So does Christ make the unclean clean and sinless or not. According to Catholic beliefs he does NOT. That is a Big problem for me. I also do not recognize the authority of Maccabees as I do the other books of the Bible. Likely a useful for knowledge book but not Authoritative as the Gospel and the Old Testament are. I also saw no mention of Purgatory in Luke 12. But I may have the wrong passage. For me it's Faith or nothing. Works prove Faith not the other way around. Good deeds get you a pat on the back straight down the wide road to destruction. Only the Straight and narrow path of Christ saves... Nothing can be added like Purgatory. And nothing can be subtracted like the value of Christ's sacrifice. Well wishes for all my Catholic friends hoping you see the Truth in the Word and not try to place your Truth into the Word as many heretics have before. God bless and keep you, God make his face shine upon you and give you his peace. Amen.
If every sin has already been paid in full by Christ over 1900 years ago, and I will no longer experience wrath, ever, and because it is Christ who transforms me, and those true believers who were beheaded during the 7 year tribulation will go straight to God's throne room as it shows in Revelation in that they weren't in Purgatory for 10,000 years..... so, as a Protestant, your logic doesn't make sense, but anyway, as a Protestant, should I say "Hail Mary" 10,000 times as an INDULGENCE TO REDUCE TIME IN PURGATORY, or 1,000,000,000, or, just 100 times?
16 minutes before you even get to scripture. You are reading way more into Matthew than what is there. There are2 issues with Macc. What the men were doing was idolatry. And because they had the custom is no more binding than having idols. The Jews had authority over the Old Testament. And the OT accepted by Jesus and the apostles did not accept Macc. as canon. As for the church fathers they are all over the place. That’s why Sola Scriptura is so important. Rome fostered the idea of purgatory because it frightened people into paying for indulgences.
In 2 Maccabees, I’d argue it wasn’t idolatry but superstition. Keep in mind they fought for those trying to defend the temple and against those who would put idols up in there. The amulets indicate a diminished trust in God but nonetheless they fought for God. Surely the Maccabees who discovered the dead would’ve condemned them when they found the amulets if they thought it was idolatry, but they did not, they prayed for them that their offense might be blotted out. Much of the New Testament indicates the apostles drew from the Septuagint Greek OT, which did include the deuterocanonicals. In fact in Hebrews 11:35-37 there is an example that is ONLY referenced in 2 Maccabees.
@@killianmiller6107 you can argue that all you want They were relying on idols for protection not god I would add that I would not use Macc to support idolatry or purgatory Jesus and the apostles accepted the Jewish OT. The Roman church had no authority to change the OT
Bro I just gave you all the reasons why it’s superstition and not idolatry, all you gave in response is an assertion without evidence. You do the same with what the apostles considered scripture, asserting they used your canon without evidence, meanwhile I cited two points from influence from the Greek Septuagint and an obvious reference in Hebrews showing the NT pulled from the deuterocanon. The “Jewish canon” was not closed until AFTER apostolic times, and they didn’t have the authority anymore now that the church existed.
@@killianmiller6107 no you gave no reason at all why you call it superstition I have seen many apologists discuss these verses and it universally described as idolatry
@@CameronRiecker well … if we must be pure to enter into heaven (and we must)..and if Christ is perfectly pure (and he is) …and he imputes to all those who are born again his perfect righteousness (and he does)…then the job is complete …at death a born again believer is ushered immediately to heaven because of Christ’s righteousness covering them (this is the blessed man who’s sins are not counted against him) … so we must be perfect and this is impossible to do so we trust that Christ was perfect in our place.
@@johnmarshall240 Christ is so perfect that He communicates His perfection to us! The reception of that perfection is imperfect because of our limited reception
@@CameronRiecker with man this is impossible, but with God, all things are possible (Matt 19:26) … Cameron..you’re a sweet man, but your works will never merit the salvific favor of God.
seems like most of my responses come from the book of hebrews. it is as hard to convince a catholic of the sufficiency of jesus sacrifice as it was for the writer, even Paul, to convince the jews. you say "to enter heaven you have to be pure". hebrews 10:10...we are SANCTIFIED thru the offering of the body of jesus christ once for all. hebrews 10:14.. for by one offering he has PERFECTED forever those who are sanctified. 1 john 1:7 ...the blood of jesus PURIFIES us from all sin. (sanctified, purified, perfected) who are you going to believe? hebrews 10:19...**we have confidence to ENTER the most holy place by the blood of jesus.** rev. 7:14...they have washed their robes and made them WHITE in the blood of the lamb. rev. 1:7 to him who loved us and washed us from our sins in his own blood and made us KINGS AND PRIESTS to his God and Father... whoever has the "Spirit of Christ" belongs to him/the body. it does not matter what the early church or the so called church fathers believed, they disagree. it matters only what jesus and the apostles taught. "any ploughboy can know as much or more than the priest". that is what the popes feared most, persecuting the bible translators, to keep the book out the hands of the common people, collecting their indulgences $ for sin. the only way to be certain what the apostles taught is to rely on scripture, not probability. pay back their debts in purgatory? no can do a thing to remove their sin, no can pay for their own sin. justice? we are justified by faith. jesus paid the debt, in full. do you believe that? study, alone, romans 1-8. justified freely. 2 macabees---if people are praying for the dead, does that make it true? the religious beliefs and practices of the jews were full of myths, and idolatries. they killed the prophets of God. go figure. there was only a remnant who were faithful to the abrahamic/mosaic/davidic covenant. next> offer sacrifices??to who? what sacrifices? dead animals? burnt offerings? nah! we offer the sacrifice of praise. too bad you can't find such sayings in recognized scripture, just some men musing. it is clearly not written in scripture or all of us would hear it taught. can't say that we have. ubiquitous--what is popular, if everyone is doing it is a good clue to be skeptical, and is no surety of being what the apostles taught, or of being true. and yes, the church fell into error early on just as fast as the golden calf was formed in moses absence, and other idolatries and the like. murmmering, the spirit of antichrist was already at work. such a child. job? he offered sacrifices while his children were alive, in case they were sinning. a slam dunk! paul considered himself wretched, a sinner, yet he knew that when he died, he would be with the lord. there's some hard scripture for you. roman 7.
Thanks for the comment! Catholics believe Jesus earned an infinite amount of grace and merit, but that there is a finite reception of that grace. That is why Paul says there is something wanting in the Cross of Christ. Namely, our reception of grace. Col 1:24
@@CameronRiecker acts 9:15,16--paul's conversion. our tribulations, trials, testing, persecutions, suffering and discipline takes place on this earth, before we die. col. 1:24 has nothing to do with purgatory, working off sins after we die. the lord said he was going to show paul how much he would have to suffer for his names sake. namely taking the gospel to the world. we all are appointed to suffering, with christ as an example of enduring. nothing lacking in the cross. and----as for us--romans 4:7,8 "blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, and whose sins are covered; blessed is the man to whom the lord shall not impute sin." i will remember their sins no more. the new covenant in jesus blood. romans chapter 4, about the the righteousness of God being imputed to us. nothing lacking in that "reception." it's a done deal. sweet jesus.
I just heard a sermon on Galatians and it drove home how blasphemous the teaching of purgatory is, without even referring to it. According to Paul if anyone preaches a different Gospel, which is no gospel, let them be 'anathema'. The council of Trent, pronounced that curse on anyone who preaches the Gospel. The whole point of the Gospel is that Jesus took our sin, all of it, and gave us His righteousness. If you have received the Holy Spirit and been reborn, you have the righteousness of Christ and do not need nor can you add to it. If you have God's Holy Spirit dwelling in you, God does not see any sin on you, he sees the Righteousness of His Son. Paul taught that when he sinned, it wasn't in his spirit but in his flesh. When we give up this body of death and receive our glorified body we will be totally sinless both legally and actually.
@@CameronRiecker No a Christian can sin. But that sin has been paid for along with all their other sins. The most significant aspect of being Born Again is that that person has become the gift of the Father to the Son. Those the Father have given to the Son will be preserved. None shall be lost. I quote briefly. I trust that you know where to look up the rest of the context. Therefore there is now no condemnation at all for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters; and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified. A Born Again Christian is a new creation. Something you apparently do not comprehend. We are a human with the Spirit of God living within us.
@@CameronRiecker You could experience the Joy of your salvation if you would just quit stubbornly following the blind teachers. Listen to what Jesus says not the pope. You misunderstand the depth of your depravity. You are so sinful that you cannot contribute anything to your salvation. It is all of God. The just shall live by faith. It is total submission to God. Jesus said, "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day. "
Purgatory All who die in God’s grace, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven (1030) This seems so simple. It’s common sense. Scripture is very clear when it says, “But nothing unclean shall enter [heaven]” (Rev. 21:27). Hab. 1:13 says, “You [God]… are of purer eyes than to behold evil and cannot look on wrong…” How many of us will be perfectly sanctified at the time of our deaths? I dare say most of us will be in need of further purification in order to enter the gates of heaven after we die, if, please God, we die in a state of grace. In II Maccabees 12:39-46, we discover Judas Maccabeus and members of his Jewish military forces collecting the bodies of some fallen comrades who had been killed in battle. When they discovered these men were carrying “sacred tokens of the idols of Jamnia, which the law forbids the Jews to wear” (vs. 40), Judas and his companions discerned they had died as a punishment for sin. Therefore, Judas and his men “turned to prayer beseeching that the sin which had been committed might be wholly blotted out… He also took up a collection… and sent it to Jerusalem to provide for a sin offering. In doing this he acted very well and honorably… Therefore he made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin.” Matthew 5:25-26 Make friends quickly with your accuser, while you are going with him to court, lest your accuser hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the guard, and you be put in prison; truly I say to you, you will never get out till you have paid the last penny I Corinthians 3:11-15 15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved 1 John 5 16-17 reference to deadly (mortal) sin & non deadly sin (venial) sin Luke 12 27-40 the four servants are treated differently, the faithful one gains Heaven, the second Hell & the other two, purgatory
No one goes to heaven pure. The Bible says the best we have to offer are but filthy rags. We are counted/ made pure by the blood. Your whole premise is incorrect from the beginning. The BEST we have to offer are but filthy rags. Paul lamented this fact.
The “filthy rags” argument from Isaiah 64:6 only works out of context, lest you say a corporal work of mercy like feeding the hungry out of love for them is a filthy work. Feeding the hungry to signal your virtue is filthy, but why should we say the former is also filthy? Would you say the “good works that God prepared for us in advance” in Ephesians 2:10 are filthy? If so then you’re saying God prepared the justified (Ephesians 2:8-9) to do filthy works. Calling all our deeds filthy contradicts all the numerous references to righteous deeds in scripture. I should note that all meritorious works are post-justification and always in response to grace working in us; no work can be good without grace. As for what’s going on in Isaiah, you can’t just take a snippet of a verse and build a theology around it. The prior verse speaks of how God “meets him who joyfully works righteousness.” You can’t just nullify that verse to say what you want to say about filthy works. With the context of verse 5, the “our” in verse 6 doesn’t speak of every person without exception, but of the Israelites who have been in sin for a long time; their habit of living in sin dirties any external good work they may do because internally they are corrupt.
@@killianmiller6107 and all of that makes you no more "pure" when you enter heaven. We are still sinners that have nothing to fall back on but the grace of Christ. Mother Theresa was no more pure than anyone else. In not saying all sins are equal, but all deserve hell.
No indication that you are going to stop using the “filthy rags”argument, which is unfortunate. I will say that saints like Mother Theresa are quite eager to confirm that they are sinners; their vicinity to the light of grace makes it much easier to see all the stains on their soul. Indeed all we can fall back on is the grace of Christ, but we are called to live in this grace and increase what was given to us through good works. It’s interesting how you say we are still sinners and yet you also believe we have been saved and purified of all sin by Jesus’s sacrifice. Tell me how that works
2nd Maccabees is not Scripture because it was written by syncretistic Jews (half pagan Jews). God always spoke through true men of God; not men who corrupted and perverted the worship of God like the Maccabees did. These Jews took the practice of praying for the dead from the pagans that were around them. This shouldn't be surprising considering the Jews as a people have always perverted the worship of God with pagan practices since the moment God took them out of Egypt (remember the golden calf) (Exo. 32:4). While 2nd Maccabees is historically reliable; it is an historically reliable account written by a people who were mixing idolatry with true worship. The beliefs of the Maccabean Jews are questionable at best and they could never hold a candle to Moses, Joshua, David, and the prophets. The Maccabean Jews were not men of God, they were a very confused people whose spiritual teachings were corrupted by paganism.
@@CameronRiecker You're welcome. Thank you for the reply. Please allow me to rebut. > Solomon wrote a good chunk of the Old Testament. Solomon was a holy man of God who was made the wisest man on earth by God (1 Kings 3:11-12). God chose Solomon to build the temple over his father king David (1 Chron. 28:3-5). That means God considered Solomon to be more holy than king David before he fell into the sin of idolatry. Solomon never wrote his books while practicing idolatry. The Bible says that Solomon wrote Proverbs and Songs of Solomon before he fell into the sin of idolatry (1 Kings 4:29-30). Note how Solomon doesn't fall into idolatry until 1 Kings 11:1-5. Solomon then repented of his idolatry before he wrote Ecclesiastes (Ecc. 12:13-14). The book of Ecclesiastes teaches against idolatry (Ecc. 5:1) (as does Proverbs). Solomon was pure (holy) when he wrote all his books. The Maccabees on the other hand, were never pure (holy). The Maccabees wrote their books while practicing idolatry, teaching idolatry, and they never repented of their idolatry. >Baalaam makes a prophecy about Christ. Baalaam never wrote a book of the Bible. Baalaam was not a man of God, he was a pagan prophet. God commands us not to listen to pagan prophets even if their prophecies come to pass (Deut. 13:1-4). God says He allows this to happen to prove our hearts to see whether or not we love Him with all of our heart and all of our soul (Deut. 13:3) God's Word says that the Holy Ghost only used holy (pure) men of God to write His Word (2 Pet. 1:20-21) not half idolater half God worshippers.
@@Nickisgodly3781what translation are you using for 2 Peter scripture? I've looked at a few translations and it seems either you've added some pieces that aren't in there or the few I've looked at may be missing it.
@@thundersmite2162 2 Peter 1:20-21 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost. (KJV) When Peter writes "prophecy of scripture" he is referring to the entire Old Testament. Peter is discussing in these verses how Scripture originated.
@@thundersmite2162 The translations that omit "holy" from "holy men of God" in 2 Peter 1:21 are translated from the Alexandrian text type (which were written by Egyptian gnostic heretics). The reason why these Egyptian heretics omitted the word "holy" from "holy men of God" is because they didn't believe men had to be holy to speak divine revelation from God. They believed any pagan (including themselves) could speak divine revelation from God which is why they omitted the second "holy" in 2 Peter 1:21. The translations that do include "holy men of God" in 2 Peter 1:21 are translated from the majority text (which were written by the faithful followers of Christ in the churches that were in Asia minor). That's why we can trust the Majority Text over the Alexandrian text (because it was copied down by actual Christians, not gnostic heretics who omitted things from the Bible that didn't fit their pagan religion).
The big question is why was purgatory created? It is totally unnecessary in light of the all sufficient sacrifice of Jesus. Once for all. When the Holy Spirit convicts you of sin and you repent... that means you confess that you are a sinner justly deserving God's wrath, and you want to be purged of it, to be made clean. At that point you are reborn, receive the Holy Spirit and are a new creation. There is now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus. This is entirely by the grace of God, not of any works on your part lest any should boast. He who has begun a good work in you is faithful to complete it. Jesus did not tell the man on the next cross that today he would be in purgatory. The beggar Lazarus was not in purgatory. If you are truly born again then you should understand this. If you believe in purgatory, then I have to question whether you have truly repented of your sins and placed your eternal salvation in the hands of Jesus alone. To believe that someone here on earth, can pray, or do works to speed your release from purgatory into heaven is to miss the whole point of salvation.
Not at all! Sin separates us from God. Do you need a list of the hundreds of verses admonishing Christians to repent, confess their sins and RETURN TO GOD? Do you need the reference to Paul forgiving sin IN THE PERSON OF CHRIST? Do you need the verses detailing Christ giving UNPRECEDENTED POWER over sin to the Apostles? Are you not aware that Paul wrote of our being saved AT JUDGMENT - but only as if PASSING THROUGH FIRE? Are you unaware that nothing impure enters God's Kingdom? Since NO ONE is worthy of heaven, and YOU cannot achieve heaven by the WORK of faith or your WORK of inviting Christ into your heart or your WORK of saying the Sinner's prayer, how do you expect to be automatically saved? If Christ paid for all sin, then Hitler is dining in heaven with Golda Meir. Does that make sense? I cannot understand your objection - except that you have been taught a very modern and Americanized version of Christianity. I used to believe as you do, but ultimately it all made no sense and I had to leave.
@@HAL9000-su1mz Actually it is not modern or American. It is all in the Bible and has been codified in, among other things, the Westminster Confession of Faith which is over 500 years old. You misused and misapplied too many verses for me to argue here. If you are truly Born Again, I'll pray for you and trust the Holy Spirit to guide you into all truth. I see from reading below you reject the reformed faith completely. The roman catholic church as it is today is not a Christian church but a political cult. There may be Born Again members but the councils reject the Gospel. The roman catholic church at the time of Luther was intensely corrupt and little has changed, he wanted to clean it up but they murdered protestants for hundreds of years and separation was the only possible outcome.
Purgatory The Catechism of the Catholic Church teaches: All who die in God’s grace, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven (1030) This seems so simple. It’s common sense. Scripture is very clear when it says, “But nothing unclean shall enter [heaven]” (Rev. 21:27). Hab. 1:13 says, “You [God]… are of purer eyes than to behold evil and cannot look on wrong…” How many of us will be perfectly sanctified at the time of our deaths? I dare say most of us will be in need of further purification in order to enter the gates of heaven after we die, if, please God, we die in a state of grace. In II Maccabees 12:39-46, we discover Judas Maccabeus and members of his Jewish military forces collecting the bodies of some fallen comrades who had been killed in battle. When they discovered these men were carrying “sacred tokens of the idols of Jamnia, which the law forbids the Jews to wear” (vs. 40), Judas and his companions discerned they had died as a punishment for sin. Therefore, Judas and his men “turned to prayer beseeching that the sin which had been committed might be wholly blotted out… He also took up a collection… and sent it to Jerusalem to provide for a sin offering. In doing this he acted very well and honorably… Therefore he made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin.” Matthew 5:25-26 Make friends quickly with your accuser, while you are going with him to court, lest your accuser hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the guard, and you be put in prison; truly I say to you, you will never get out till you have paid the last penny I Corinthians 3:11-15 15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved 1 John 5 16-17 reference to deadly (mortal) sin & non deadly sin (venial) sin Luke 12 27-40 the four servants are treated differently, the faithful one gains Heaven, the second Hell & the other two, purgatory
EVEN IF the state of purification was created, the Church has the POWER to create it. Christ gave that power to the Church. Must we show you where? Hint: Matthew 16 and 18. Secondarily, the state of purification was created by God - out of unfathomable mercy - ONLY for the saved. If you do not need purification, you cannot be saved. Otherwise you declare yourself to be perfect before God - which is self-deception. If we say we have not sinned we make God a liar. 1 John 1:10 Do you? Your problem stems from indulging your ego. Secondarily, you lack a complete bible. Thirdly, you have no no authoritative Church to set you straight. My advice is to humble yourself and admit that you do not know everything and that you are not perfect. Oh, and read 1 Corinthians 3:10-14. We are tested on that day. If our work - WORK! - burns up, we shall be saved, but only as if passing through fire. The Refiner's fire. The fire which purifies. The fire which PURGES.
Great, simple explanation that also gets deep quickly! Keep it up!
Thanks for the comment! Glad you liked it!
According to my understanding, catholics believe we aren't exempt from the consequences of our sins just because we repent and believe in Jesus, while protestants reject the idea of purgatory because Christ has already paid the debt for us with his death and resurrection, and that believing we need to go through purgatory to purify ourselves before entering heaven is saying that the blood of Christ is not enough to wash away our sins. What answer should we give to that statement?
Moreover, isn't the whole point of the sacrament of confession to remove the sin separating us from God? What is the definition of forgiveness, then?
Thanks for the comment! Jesus' sacrifice is sufficient to cover all the guilt and punishment of all men.
However, man's reception of Christ's gift is finite and often defective.
If someone fails to receive God's grace to the degree that God desires, then they will need to receive God's grace in the next life to be forgiven.
@@CameronRiecker thx! That's a great answer.
Those arguments assuming salvation are made-up reformation nonsense. The concept began with Luther, who, because of extreme psychological problems, could not ever believe that he could achieve a state of grace. As time went on, he morphed his theology to the point where sin carries no cost. This is completely inconsistent with Judeo-Christian belief, but he was extremely charismatic, and many followed him.
Can we sin at will? Murder, rape and rob and jet straight to heaven? Nonsense! Church teaching and the scriptures constant exhort us to repent and seek God's grace. There is no fundamentalist or evangelical answer to it - they always hem and haw.
@@smallparticlelinda that's not a great answer. Please read the New Testament letters by Paul. Focus on the parts that deal with salvation. Romans is a good one. Here Paul is teaching the converted Jews about salvation through Jesus Christ and whether or not that is enough.
Love this video!!
Thanks :)
Great video!
Pray for the Holy Souls!!!!
Thanks for the comment! God bless!
Congratulations 🎊 👏 💐 🥳 👨👩👧 Dad. ❤❤❤❤❤❤❤
Just to be clear, I don't think the Church has declared it to necessarily be place, but a process.
Correct. It is a state of existence. A temporary state.
Thanks for the comment!
Traditionally, it is thought to be located on the outermost layer of hell.
You say "Its in the Bible" what verses did you go over because I didn't hear any exegesis...
Thanks for the comment!
1 Cor 3:15 Paul says that on judgement day a man will be saved through fire.
In 2 Mac 12 the Jews pray for the dead.
@@CameronRiecker
We can discuss that, I disagree
And Maccabees isn't biblical. Second, they will be saved as one escaping through the flames. Their works will be burned up but they will be saved. This is a verse on eternal security. Faith saves. Not faith + works. Works flow from faith--because you love God. Works don't save. Trent's anathemas be anathema.
Of course purgatory is biblical, not for Protestants that is, but who gave Luther permission to remove 7 books without authority Deut 4:2?
Purgatory
The Catechism of the Catholic Church teaches:
All who die in God’s grace, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven (1030) This seems so simple. It’s common sense. Scripture is very clear when it says, “But nothing unclean shall enter [heaven]” (Rev. 21:27). Hab. 1:13 says, “You [God]… are of purer eyes than to behold evil and cannot look on wrong…” How many of us will be perfectly sanctified at the time of our deaths? I dare say most of us will be in need of further purification in order to enter the gates of heaven after we die, if, please God, we die in a state of grace.
In II Maccabees 12:39-46, we discover Judas Maccabeus and members of his Jewish military forces collecting the bodies of some fallen comrades who had been killed in battle. When they discovered these men were carrying “sacred tokens of the idols of Jamnia, which the law forbids the Jews to wear” (vs. 40), Judas and his companions discerned they had died as a punishment for sin. Therefore, Judas and his men “turned to prayer beseeching that the sin which had been committed might be wholly blotted out… He also took up a collection… and sent it to Jerusalem to provide for a sin offering. In doing this he acted very well and honorably… Therefore he made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin.”
Matthew 5:25-26 Make friends quickly with your accuser, while you are going with him to court, lest your accuser hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the guard, and you be put in prison; truly I say to you, you will never get out till you have paid the last penny
I Corinthians 3:11-15 15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved
1 John 5 16-17 reference to deadly (mortal) sin & non deadly sin (venial) sin
Luke 12 27-40 the four servants are treated differently, the faithful one gains Heaven, the second Hell & the other two, purgatory
We are impure. Let us pray to be pure like the Virgin she is our only hope
Thanks for the comment! Well said :)
Yikes…Jesus is our only hope. You must be perfect and we are made perfect only though the righteousness of Christ imputed to us by grace through faith.
Mary was human. She cannot save you
What? Mary committed no sin? She was pure as Jesus Christ?
@@dire5558 unfortunately the Roman Catholic Church does actually believe this
The Holy Roman Catholic Church ⛪️ 🙌 👏 🙏 is the only Church for Christ, please 🙏 come home 🏡 🙏 praying for everyone 🙏 💙 ❤️ lighting candles 🕯 for all .......❤❤❤❤❤❤❤
As a former Roman Catholic, I point to the Bible: "And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:" (Hebrews 9.27). As far as "division" goes, the Bible also says: "Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division:” (Luke 12.51) "Unity" is not the goal, truth is the goal.
Thanks for the comment :)
Yes, death then judgement. But what if someone is judged to be good, but not entirely?
Does God condemn them? That seems harsh.
Or does God purify them and bring them to heaven?
Being a former Protestant returning to Gods church.
I find it very funny the same people that claim and bash on purgatory, are the same ones that believe in a pre tribulation. Talk about adding to the Bible, (wait they also take 7 books away) sad thing is you show them with history when it started and by who, they go blind and refuse to see the truth.
The reason, people argue against purgatory, is because it has been driven by your un/ill informed pastor, that indulgences were sold by the Catholic Church. That’s the way I was brain washed.
Lets play on a possibility the church is wrong, guess what with and without purgatory I won.
His teachings caused division but His goal is unity Jn 17 11-23 to which Protestantism with personal interpretation is creating more problems
Purgatory does NOT contradict Hebrews 9:7. The souls in purgatory have already been judged and they are destined to Heaven. However, they need some kind of purification, as "nothing unclean can enter Heaven". Revelation 21:27. And there are many more biblical passages alluding to the reality of purgatory, both in the old and new testaments.
Not only we can pray for the dead, but even those in hell can pray for us.. Review the parable of Dives and Lazarus. When in doubt, open randomly any page of the Bible, and if Jesus is in your heart, you'll find answer..
.. And as usual, Cameron the Thematic man, perfected on this subject.
Thanks for the comment!
Interesting observation!
Where did you get this? That was not the hell of the eternally damned. Hell contains zero hope and prayer is based on hope. However! It does show that the "dead" re not really dead, but being put to death in the flesh, they are made alive in the spirit.
@@HAL9000-su1mz Aren't you supposed to sing for daisy?
Anyway..Cray is who ignore this:
"Truly I tell you, if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there,' and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you."
Jesus connects the dots. God looks at us covered by the blood of his perfect son.
Where does the bible say Jesus connects the dots? HE opened the gates. WE still have to get there. Explain, please.
Thanks for the comment! Yes, we are saved by the blood of Jesus!
The reason I follow the Catholic church is, even though there are a lot of things still I don't understand at this point in time, I decide to trust the wisdom of early patriarchs and holy people instead of my own rationalization, especially since the apostles' authority was given by Christ himself. I still try to learn as much as I can, though, about catholicism and various other religions.
It's fascinating how similar some of the teachings and traditions of the Catholic church is to Taoism and Buddhism, who also conduct ceremonies for the dead. They believe some souls are unable to transition/reincarnate to the next life and are thus suffering, so they burn incense and offer sacrifices to give them some type of relief. Like catholic priests, taoist priests also use holy objects as aids in exorcisms. Unfortunately, such similarities is exactly why the protestants accuse catholicism of paganism.
Last but not least, the temperament of devout catholics and Buddhists are similar in that they're always gentle, humbler, and more at peace than people of other religions, protestants even. The catholics just seem to have more life and love in their eyes.
Thanks for the comment!
Admittedly I know very little about Eastern religions. They pray for the dead?
@@CameronRiecker Yep. I'm not too sure about the exact terminology either, but basically it's to lessen suffering and aid in transition into the next life. There are even festivals akin to All Souls' Day in Catholicism, in which they collectively pray and conduct ceremonies for the dead.
If you study the rituals surrounding the Tabernacle and ark of covenant in Moses' time, you'll also find a lot of similarities between them and eastern religions (Buddhism, Taoism, Shintoism, various sects of ancestral worship etc.)
It is not complicated. Most people believe themselves OK. When the Holy Spirit disabuses you of that and you see your self as a sinner. When you look at your life, and realize that it was all for yourself and that you do not love God, When you realize HE has blessed you and you have dissed Him, admit it. Give up running and ask to be forgiven.
This is an interesting scenario... Where can I see what the Church teaches about the idea that saints are filling in the ranks of fallen angels?
Thanks for the comment!
Here's an exerpt from Augustine. Anselm and Thomas both say basically the same thing!
And so it pleased God, the Creator and Governor of the universe, that, since the whole body of the angels had not fallen into rebellion, the part of them which had fallen should remain in perdition eternally, and that the other part, which had in the rebellion remained steadfastly loyal, should rejoice in the sure and certain knowledge of their eternal happiness; but that, on the other hand, mankind, who constituted the remainder of the intelligent creation, having perished without exception under sin, both original and actual, and the consequent punishments, should be in part restored, and should fill up the gap which the rebellion and fall of the devils had left in the company of the angels. For this is the promise to the saints, that at the resurrection they shall be equal to the angels of God.
www.newadvent.org/fathers/1302.htm
⭐⭐⭐ CHRISTIANS! ⭐⭐⭐ Please consider reporting the trolls who always infest such videos. They harass and insult and add nothing to the conversation. Then offer a prayer for their souls!
Thank you for the charitable comment! :)
*Part 1 of 3*
I am going to respond to you in love and not to make fun or talk down to you. So please accept this as a positive thing and not as an attack. Let me try to address every point you make. If you are just going to ignore it, then skip this comment. Hopefully it can be helpful for someone else.
2:53 To enter into heaven you have to be pure.
There is some truth to that, but that, no matter what anyone tells you, cannot be done without the life of Jesus Christ, which is what the Holy Spirit actually is. That pureness you are speaking of is done here while you are alive and not after you die. After you die there is nothing more for you. You have sealed your fate. That desire that you speak of, wanting to love God and be pure, that is a state of mind which must be reached while you are living. After you die, you do not go to purgatory, but your body goes back to the earth and your spirit, your life, goes back to God who gave it to you.
“Then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and *the spirit will return to God who gave it”* (Ecclesiastes 12:7).
4:55 what ever connects you to point A to point B, that is what Catholics call purgatory.
Then purgatory is the time we live here on earth. This is where we make our decision to follow Christ or not. Once we die, we know nothing more and we stay in the grave until the day of the resurrection.
“The living know that they will die; but *the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward,* for the memory of them is forgotten. Also *their love, their hatred, and their envy have now perished;* nevermore will they have a share in anything done under the sun. … *There is no work or device or knowledge or wisdom in the grave* where you are going” (Ecclesiastes 9:5, 6, 10).
*“The dead do not praise the Lord”* (Psalm 115:17).
5:03 the process by which you become totally clean. Worthiness to get to heaven
How can you become clean if you know nothing once you are in the grave? There is no knowledge or wisdom when you die.
The only way to get into heaven is to be reborn, as Jesus states. That can only be done while you are alive.
3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, *Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.*
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, *Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.* 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and *that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.* 7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, *Ye must be born again.* (John 3:3,5-7)
That rebirth must be done while you are alive. You cannot be reborn, or even baptized, or have anyone baptize themselves for the decease to save them.
Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if *the dead rise not at all?* why are they then baptized for the dead? (1 Corinthians 15:29)
We are not worthy and will never be worthy to get into heaven. Our worth comes from the sacrifice that Jesus Christ did for us. In giving up His life for ours, He has given us His spirit, His eternal life, which makes us children of God. And only through Jesus, nothing that we can do ourselves, are we made worthy. Because of this there is a rebirth and now we follow Jesus and keep the commandments of God, because of Who is in us, not of our own efforts.
And *this is life eternal, that they might know* thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. (John 17:3)
6:10 as Catholics we believe that Jesus has one body. This body is formed of the saints in heaven, on earth, and purgatory.
There is partial truth to this statement. Jesus has one body, the church. However, the dead who are saved are not in heaven right now (there is an exception, but in general). There is also no one in purgatory. Again, read some of the previous verses already stating that after you die there is no knowledge. When Jesus comes there will be a resurrection of the saints as well as the wicket. If people were in heaven right now, then why do they need to be resurrected if they are in heaven already?
“Man lies down *and does not rise.* Till the heavens are no more” (Job 14:12).
*“All who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth”* (John 5:28, 29).
“David … is both dead and buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. … For *David did not ascend into the heavens”* (Acts 2:29, 34).
“If I wait, *the grave is mine house”* (Job 17:13 KJV).
And *many of them that sleep* in the dust of the earth *shall awake,* some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. (Daniel 12:2)
*Part 2 of 3*
6:42 Benefiting someone in purgatory
*Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead,* if the dead rise not at all? *why are they then baptized for the dead?* (1 Corinthians 15:29)
18 For *the grave cannot praise thee,* death can not celebrate thee: *they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth.* 19 The living, the living, he shall praise thee, as I do this day: the father to the children shall make known thy truth. (Isaiah 38:18-19
21 His sons come to honour, and he knoweth it not; and they are brought low, but he perceiveth it not of them. (Job 14:21)
3 Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help. 4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; *in that very day his thoughts perish.* (Psalm 146:3-4)
Everyone's salvation is individual. They have to make that choice. No matter how much you pray for someone's salvation, if they do not choose to be saved while alive, there is nothing more you can do after they die. If they were part of the body of Christ while alive, they will be resurrected for the kingdom when Jesus comes the second time.
8:00 when looking at the faith of the early fathers, we are looking at the faith of the apostles.
I will have to disagree with that. There was many pagans with their ideas introducing them into the churches. Some of the letters and even Revelation speak about these errors coming into the church. If you want to stay in the straight and narrow and not be deceived, you need to stick with what the bible teaches, not what the early "fathers" taught. You will not see anything in the bible dealing with purgatory. This is perhaps the reason why the Catholic church speak about the "early fathers" since they were what constituted the early Catholic church. Again, stick with the bible.
8:40 Understanding the intercession of the saints now better than before
There is no saint that intercedes for us. I've already posted bible verses that show that the dead know nothing and have nothing more under the sun. Here it is again.
“The living know that they will die; but *the dead know nothing,* and they have no more reward, for the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, their hatred, and their envy have now perished; *nevermore will they have a share in anything done under the sun.* … *There is no work or device or knowledge or wisdom in the grave where you are going”* (Ecclesiastes 9:5, 6, 10).
*“The dead do not praise the Lord”* (Psalm 115:17).
We only have one mediator between us and God. There is no saint that can mediate for us.
For there is one God, and *one mediator between God and men,* the man *Christ Jesus;* (1 Timothy 2:5)
Can we pray to the dead, which is what these saints are since they are not in heaven?
10 *There shall not be found among you any one that* maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch. 11 Or a charmer, or a *consulter with familiar spirits,* or a wizard, or a necromancer. 12 *For all that do these things are an abomination unto the Lord:* and because of these abominations the Lord thy God doth drive them out from before thee. (Deuteronomy 18:11-12)
13 *So Saul died for his transgression* which he committed against the Lord, even against the word of the Lord, which he kept not, and also *for asking counsel of one that had a familiar spirit, to enquire of it;* 14 *And enquired not of the Lord: therefore he slew him,* and turned the kingdom unto David the son of Jesse. (1 Corinthians 10:13-14
King Saul enquired of the prophet Samuel, which was a prophet of God, which is considered a saint in today's standards, after he died to intercede for him. The result was his death. The Lord ensured that Saul was to die.
12:30 ish this whole idea about still being punished even after you have been accepted.
I won't go into this whole idea about pennants to bring you closer to God. This is already long as it is, but I will say this one thing. Nothing that you do will make up for your wrongs. It is a free gift that God gives without asking for anything in return, except you follow Jesus.
1 O foolish Galatians, *who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth,* before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? 2 This only would I learn of you, *Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?* 3 *Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?* 4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain. 5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, *doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?* 6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. 7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. 8 And the scripture, foreseeing that *God would justify the heathen through faith,* preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. 9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham. 10 *For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse:* for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. 11 But that *no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.* 12 And *the law is not of faith:* but, The man that doeth them shall live in them. 13 *Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law,* being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: 14 That *the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.* (Galatians 3:1-14)
Do not get these passages confused and think it has nothing to do with pennants. It certainly does. Isn't pennants doing something to get back into good grace with God so that you could be saved? That is a form of works and not faith. You are doing something to try to bring you in good grace, to get you back on track. It is faith in Christ that gives you the promise of the Spirit, which is eternal life. Do not confuse what I am saying with that we do not need to follow the law of God, for we must definitely do. But the law does not save, it is a consequence of being saved.
That example you gave with your son is not how God works. Either Jesus paid your "dues" for you or He did not.
20 Therefore *by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight:* for by the law is the knowledge of sin. 21 But *now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested,* being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 22 *Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ* unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: 23 *For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;* 24 *Being justified FREELY by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:* 25 Whom God hath set forth to be *a propitiation through faith in his blood,* to declare his righteousness *for the remission of sins* that are past, through the forbearance of God; 26 *To declare,* I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and *the justifier* of him which believeth in Jesus. (Romans 3:20-26)
Justification and grace is free. The consequences you speak of do not come from God if you truly are repentant of your sins and believe. The consequences come from your life choices. But you are forgiven and God doesn't punish you for it because His Son took upon Himself that punishment for you.
*Part 3 of 3*
What you said before and what you say here, well a lot of verses already provided tell you that the dead have no knowledge or are aware and neither can they praise the lord. There house is forever the grave until Jesus comes back. Have you considered that their statements contradict the bible?
23:02 did the church that Christ set up get corrupted so quickly?
The answer is absolutely yes. Even during the time of Paul iniquity was abounding, errors were being taught which Paul had to go and fix. I already gave you were Paul tells you that baptizing for the dead was wrong. He was very forceful because of that error was entering the church.
For *the mystery of iniquity doth already work:* only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. (2 Thessalonians 2:7)
Let me give you some quick examples of the church going corrupt right after being established from the bible.
Right after Israel witness God talking on the Mt Sinai the ten commandments, as soon as Moses left they had Aaron make them some idols of fake gods.
As soon as Israel was established in Canaan, after Moses death, they went after false gods.
As soon as Israel saw all the works of God (the plagues, the opening of the red sea) they wanted to go back to Egypt.
Even while God was working in Israel visibly and Moses was with them, they worshipped false gods.
So lasting 100-200 years as you stated before being corrupted, even though Paul said the corruption was already in his days, that is actually pretty good compared to the other examples I gave you.
Funny you said that Martin Luther fixed the church. Did you know that Martin Luther believed, was passionate, about paying for his sins like you believe, and his fix was to realize that your sins were already paid for and that it was wrong to think you can pay for your sins? He went against the Catholic church teachings after he read and understood the bible. Unless that was a slip in your part, you should consider that.
24:30 the apostles taught to pray for the dead, for their salvation basically.
Not one single verse in all the New Testament do you see that. Even more, Paul was completely against it.
25:20 not to pray for the martyrs because they go straight to heaven Interesting thought since the Catholic church, the same history timeline you said they could not be wrong, killed the most amounts of Christians in history ever. These Christians that were tortured and killed are the true martyrs and they did not believe the Catholic teachings. Just look it up for yourself.
I know this is long, so let me wrap it up. We do not work with grace. Grace is given to us.
Except for a couple of verses did you notice how all your teaching actually did not come from the bible but from these "church fathers"? They being Catholic? Did you compare what they said with all the verses I posted on here? Do you see that they contradict each other? I hope you do.
Let me explain why the purgatory idea is all about and where it came from. I hope you accept this as me trying to wake you up and not just insulting the Papacy, who controls the Catholic church.
The purgatory idea came from paganism, mythology. The Catholic church used that idea as a way to control people and a way to get money from them. They took away the scriptures from the masses and left them dark on the subject. I feel it is still the same today. Except for a couple of verses, all your ideas about it came from someone who taught it to you and it appears they also did not use the bible. It is man made doctrines.
How do you think that the Papacy had so much control back in the day when it ruled most of the world? It kept the world deceived through mysticism. It is still doing it today. I truly hope that your ideas are at least challenged with all the bible evidence I have given. If you want to study more on this feel free to let me know. There are ways we can do this. I even have a spanish TH-cam channel dedicated to bible studies which I can use for english studies as well. Thanks for putting this video out here. I believe Jesus is calling.
Thanks for the thoughtful comments!
If we know nothing after we are in the grave, why do Lazarus and the Rich Man know what is going on on earth after they die?
@@CameronRiecker Why are non of my comments coming through?
Purgatory Abraham's Bosom Paradise ❤
Thanks for the comment! What do you mean??
I’m a regular person. I also left the Catholic church because it just didn’t make sense and it shouldn’t take a 1/2 hour discussion to understand that TMH is all knowing and would realize what state we would be in right before we die. Surely He would consider EVERYTHING. Grace
Also, when someone makes a HUGE misunderstanding, there’s probably more misunderstandings right behind it. For example. My daughter went to the same Catholic schools and in 3rd grade she brought home a card that illustrated which SAINT to PRAY TO in times of need. I know she was confused because she asked “ Why do we need all these people when we already have Jesus? “ why can’t we just ask Him? Profound , I thought, coming from an 8 year old.
With Jesus you don’t need a middleman.
Saint Jude Thaddeus
Saint Joseph
Saint Rita of Cascia
Anthony of Padua
Dymphna
Saint Philomena
Thérèse of Lisieux
Saint Anne
Joseph of Cupertino
Saint Joseph the Worker
Saint Sebastian
Expeditus
Gregory Thaumaturgus
Saint Peter
Raphael
Saint Teresa of Avila
Saint Michael the Archangel
Saint Francis de Sales
Saint Colette
Jesus’ mother
I STILL don’t get good works. Mother Theresa performed good works…. As far as we know. However, from what I understand, she thought it was good that the poor suffered ( in essence) However, when she was sick, she was sick , she went to proper hospital. She received googols of money in donations but those that she supervised barely ate. She had balanced meals. So was she saying that she didn’t need to suffer because of the outward good works she performed. Was she saying she was better and more deserving than the poor?
Confession:
There is no mention of confession to a priest in scripture. This is a man-made idea. The Bible says we are to confess to one another so that we can be a support to one another. The only person who can forgive and absolve sin is Christ Jesus. And as He forgives us, we are to forgive one another and not carry any grudges towards one another.
Thanks for the comment!
What is TMH?
@@CameronRieckerThe Most High, Yah, God😊
Thanks for clarifying :)
Confession actually goes back to the Jewish temple religion. Jews of Jesus’s day had to confess their sins in the temple on the day of atonement once a year. Why do you think the Jews had sin offerings?
Also, confession is mentioned in the New Testament. Jesus actually gives the apostles the ability to forgive sins and you also have followers being commanded to confess their sins.
@@CameronRiecker 493 Said it very well. With the Catholics Jesus Christ didn't pay the full price for sin. Now you have work it out in the fire after death, and if the friends of the deceased have masses said for them. With the added proviso of the shekel been added for the mass that well help to reduce their time in purgatory. Talk about blackmail. You have got to be mentally deluded to believe that this stopover in hell is anything but that.
The Bible said Absent from the body and present with the Lord,2 Corinthians 5:8-21
By clicking my mouse to go to other TH-cam videos your channel just happened to come up and your title appeared to me to say with confidence "THIS is Why Catholics Believe In Purgatory (and you should too)." It got me interested to hear more of what you have to say seems to tell me you have the answer when I've heard it so many times from others and they could not come up with the answer after I debated with them. I said to myself what made this guy think he could convince me, and with the kind of attitude of “I dare you to prove me wrong.” Well, I decided to comment and give you my reason to dispute the notion that such a place called purgatory is not biblical. I was curious to find out if he is like the others who have failed or if he can convince me so I decided to take the challenge. I'm going to warn you I'm very knowledgeable on the Bible and the subject of purgatory and have debunked this lie many times before and won all the time.
First of all, let's start by commenting on something you said about Mother Teresa. At time stamp 4:03 you said that she died in incredible purity sure shows you don't know what perfection looks like. I hope you will understand what I'm going to tell you and hope you will man up to be strong enough to hear my point of view and not cut me off. I'm not here to offend you but only to tell you the truth to set you free of things you are saying need to be correct. If you can bear with me for a second and not get angry and quit you will see where I'm coming from and where I'm going with this. Hope you will respond by giving your side of what I said and we can go on from there.
I don't think you Catholics and the Vatican know exactly the most important thing Mother Teresa failed to do was to tell them about Jesus Christ that He is The Only One to make it to God the Father and that you must be born again to be saved and she never told anyone about it how to be saved. Here are three passages in the Bible that Jesus said on how to make it to Heaven.
John 14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.
John 3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
John 3:5-7 Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again." The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”
What Mother Teresa did is that she denies that Jesus Christ was the only true way to Salvation and says to them your religion or whatever kind of beliefs you have you still will make it to the Kingdom of God. That is not true and you know she was not telling the truth and you think she is a saint. Here is exactly what she said in her own words. When she was asked whether she converted, she answered, ‘Yes, I convert you to be a better Hindu, or a better Muslim, or a better Protestant, or a better Catholic, or a better Parsee, or a better Sikh, or a better Buddhist. And after you have found God, it is for you to do what God wants you to do.” Which god is she talking about? The god of Islam, the god of Buddhism, the god of Sikh, etc. She should have said: “I convert you to become a better believer in Christ who is the only One who can save you and to grow to become a better Christian because you cannot make it on your own with your religion. No religion will save you it is only through Jesus Christ because He is the only one who died on the cross on your behalf who shed His blood that takes away your sin and rosed again for you to have eternal life. No one has done what Jesus did on that cross.
Another quote from her that is not true: "I see somebody dying, I pick him up. I find somebody hungry, I give him food. He can love and be loved. I don’t look at his color, I don’t look at his religion. I don’t look at anything. Every person whether he is Hindu, Muslim, or Buddhist, is my brother, my sister,” Sorry to say Mother Teresa if they are not Christians or His disciples they cannot be your brothers and sisters. You have to be in Christ and do the will of His Father to become a brother and sister in Christ. For you for not telling them the truth you are not a Christian but a child of the devil for lying to them.
If she believed that and kept saying that to all the ones she looked after until their dying days and did not tell them the truth that Jesus is the only way to the Father by lying to them and saying you can still make it to Heaven even with the belief of your religion then I would have to say she herself is not saved but now she is tormented in a temporal hell called Hades in the same place as the ones who died under her care where they will all end up in hell at their judgment day before the white throne judgment of Jesus Christ. She let them die the second death which is the spiritual death of damnation. She died in her sin therefore she is not a saint. The wage of sin is death but the gift of God is eternal life in Jesus Christ. All liars will have their part in the lake of fire the Bible says.
She didn’t care enough about spreading the Gospel. She claimed she was serving Christ, but where was the push to convert to Jesus Christ and Christianity? While tending the suffering bodies of the poor, she left their souls to rot.
Matthew 7:21-23 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?" And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!"
Sorry to be blunt with you here. I don't know if you think twice before talking because you do not make any sense. You call those who are in purgatory saints. How can they be saints if they have sinned and why are they there in the first place if they are saints? The reason for them to be there is to get purified. Calling them saints means they are pure and holy and should be in heaven and not in purgatory. If they are in purgatory like you love to say there is such a place, they are not united in the same body of Jesus Christ and the grace of God with those who are saints. Come on my friend think a little further than your nose. You cannot mix the two and put them together it does not work that way. Jesus will separate the sheep (saints) from the goat (the wicked sinners).
If some are departed of some uncleanness they are not going to purgatory but going to hell. There is no mercy after you die mercy is offered to you while you are still alive here on earth.
You cannot pray for those who are dead whatever kind of life they live good or bad their destiny is fixed. Heaven or hell. Besides the Bible calls it necromancy to pray to the dead and it is a sin of sorcery to do it. If one is going to hell you cannot pray to get him or her out of there and why should you pray for the ones who are saved you don't need to they are already saved. There is an appointed time for men to die once and after this comes the judgment. Where is purgatory in that passage or for that matter how about the rich man and Lazarus where is purgatory in that one also? The only time you can pray for someone is only the ones who are still alive on this earth and they can pray for you who is alive also.
Thanks for the comment! If you reject Mother Theresa as an example of purity at the point of death, perhaps we could use Paul as an example instead. My intent was not to speculate about Mother Theresa's holiness, merely to point out that some people depart this earth very pure.
@@CameronRiecker Don't compare Miss Teresa with Apostle Paul. He repented and forsaken his sin with a godly sorrow and a contrite heart. He departed this earth preaching, spreading the gospel, and defending Christ and died for Him while Teresa did not repent of her sins did not share the gospel, and departed this earth by denying Christ that is why she did not die very pure but as an unrepented sinner and a child of the devil.
Matthew 10:32-33 “Therefore whoever confesses Me before men, him I will also confess before My Father who is in heaven. But whoever denies Me before men, him I will also deny before My Father who is in heaven.
Jeremiah 17:10 I, the Lord, search the heart, I test the mind, Even to give every man according to his ways, According to the fruit of his doings.
Yes, I reject her like she rejected Christ and will go to hell for it. Make no mistake about it: to deny Jesus, is to repudiate him, and to declare in words only that he is the Son of God incarnate, that he died for sinners and that he did rise from the dead, but completely deny that he is not the only way to the Father will results in her the eternal damnation in hell. Anyone and everyone who denies the Son shall himself/herself be denied eternal salvation in heaven.
Look very deeply at this religion it is not what you were told it to be. It is a man-made religion, not a Christ-centered church. They have deceived you like they already have deceived you with Teresa and how many more deception they already told you. I could point you more. Leave it before it is too late. Hope you will read more of what I had to say below.
Whose bible?
It's in my Bible! I read the DRV.
I am responding to you but my comments do not appear.
Sorry about that!
@@CameronRiecker let me know if you got the reply with the link.
@@CameronRiecker I have troubleshot the issue. It appears that any comments with links do not work. Please do a search on TH-cam for this exact title.
revelation 1412 Luke 16 - Imad Awde (VIC)
Should be the first video that comes out. 8 years old.
Like I said before in the previous comments that were not posting, I wrote some more but I do not want to repeat it right now. Check out the video and we can go from there.
I have a question though. The rich man of the story, is he in purgatory or hell according to Catholic tradition?
Even Catholics are willing to say that the rich man is in hell rather than purgatory, especially since it speaks of a great chasm that none can cross. Other Catholics try to argue that there is some level of love with the rich man wanting to warn his brothers and there can’t be love in hell, but we should note this is a parable and not a direct teaching, and it is in fact likely to have love in hell, albeit disordered, meaning that the “love” the rich man has in favor of his brothers rather than any others is more like discrimination rather than the supernatural willing the good of the other, because basically everyone loves their family.
@@killianmiller6107 I am glad you realized that this is a parable.
Are you saying that purgatory and hell are real? Like people are there right now? Or are you just explaining what a Catholic might actually consider?
Jesus saves us baptized with The Holy Spirit and Holy Water from original sin. Sins committed after Baptism have to be confessed, we have to receive absolution and serve our Penance to be forgiven by God. That’s why He instituted the Sacrament of Reconciliation (Confession). 2 Cor 5:18-20, Jn 20:21-23, Mt 16:18-19, 18:17-18.
If we die in mortal sin, we chose to be separated from God. He honors our choices for eternity. There’s no hope left.
If we die in Venial sin, we have to be purged of it to enter Heaven, as nothing impure can enter. Purgatory is a complete cleansing of our souls on the way to Heaven.
1 Cor 3:15, Mt5:25-26, 1 Pet 3:18-20, 1 Jn 5:16-17, Jn 19:11, Rev 21:27, 2 Macc 12:43-46
Thanks for the biblical comment!
I was raised Catholic… schools etc..
Why I left? Because peoples opinions ( St. Augustine) suggest that Jesus sacrifice was INSUFFICIENT. We are saved by GRACE. Purgatory, like many other Catholic dogmas, is based on a misunderstanding of the nature of Christ’s sacrifice. Catholics view the Mass / Eucharist as a re-presentation of Christ’s sacrifice because they fail to understand that Jesus’ once-for-all sacrifice was absolutely and perfectly sufficient (Hebrews 7:27). Catholics view meritorious works as contributing to salvation due to a failure to recognize that Jesus’ sacrificial payment has no need of additional “contribution” (Ephesians 2:8-9). Similarly, Purgatory is understood by Catholics as a place of cleansing in preparation for heaven because they do not recognize that because of Jesus’ sacrifice, we are already cleansed, declared righteous, forgiven, redeemed, reconciled, and sanctified.
The very idea of Purgatory and the doctrines that are often attached to it (prayer for the dead, indulgences, meritorious works on behalf of the dead, etc.) fail to recognize that Jesus’ death was sufficient to pay the penalty for ALL of our sins. Jesus, who was God incarnate (John 1:1, 14), paid an infinite price for our sin. Jesus died for our sins (1 Corinthians 15:3). Jesus is the atoning sacrifice for our sins (1 John 2:2). To limit Jesus’ sacrifice to atoning for original sin or sins committed before salvation is an attack on the Person and Work of Jesus Christ. If we must, in order to be saved, pay for, atone for, or suffer because of our sins, then Jesus’ death was not a perfect, complete, and sufficient sacrifice.
For believers, after death is to be "away from the body and at home with the Lord" (2 Corinthians 5:6-8; Philippians 1:23). Notice that this does not say "away from the body, in Purgatory with the cleansing fire." No, because of the perfection, completion, and sufficiency of Jesus’ sacrifice, we are immediately in the Lord’s presence after death, fully cleansed, free from sin, glorified, perfected, and ultimately sanctified.
Thanks for the comment!
Purgatory does not mean that the Cross is insufficient.
In Purgatory the infinite merits of Christ are applied to individuals.
The Sacrifice of Jesus is what saves us but it is not complete (See Saint Paul) in part because it requires our cooperation.
See Colossians 1:24
"24 Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I complete what is lacking[e] in Christ’s afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church, "
@@BensWorkshopno it only requires that you accept Jesus is Lord and he did it for you.
@@BestBardIraqLoL Could I suggest you read the Gospels according to Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. You clearly have not.
Was Augustine one of the Apostles, was he 100% absolutely correct and scriptural, or better to ask, did he write Scripture via the Holy Spirit?
Thanks for the comment!
No Augustine was not inspired the way the authors of the Scriptures were. However, he is an accurate reflection of the faith of the Apostles.
@@CameronRiecker "However, he is an accurate reflection of the faith of the Apostles." Well, we can say that about anyone who opens the Bible. I can say that about Luther, and Calvin. Some would say Benny Hinn. In the end, I disregard Augustine in the sense that I prororitize the Scriptures. Augustine, like any other Bible teacher, including my pastor, are all placed under what the Scriptures already say.
@@soulosxpiotov7280 So Augustine is just another guy basically?
@@CameronRiecker He's a highly educated teacher, like my pastor, like many Bible teachers, but he isn't to be elevated any higher than that - a Bible teacher. I do think he was brilliant as a thinker, but nonetheless was yet under the authority of Scripture. That he preceded us by more than a millenia has no bearing on anything; there were false teachers early on even though "they were closer to the Apostles than the rest of us." Keep in mind that many of the 'early church fathers' rejected the Trinity until Athanasius spoke up and told them to search.......The Scriptures. Which they did. Augustine is helpful like many of my pastors that I've had, but I didn't agree with everything with all and every one of my pastors.
@@soulosxpiotov7280 he’s also a bishop. Does that matter?
Sounds like purgatory is yet another way for the Roman Catholic Church to push salvation by works.
Thanks for the comment!
Catholics baptize babies who have no works.
@@CameronRiecker Baptizing babies further proves my point.
I know purgatory is real because I saw two people that died in my dreams one a suicide the other just a bad person in life. I prayed for both offering my forgiveness to the bad person. My other point is that without the Catholic faith we would had never learned of Jesus.
Thanks for the comment!
What an intense dream!
The Thief on the cross was certainly not perfected and what did Jesus tell him?
Thanks for the comment!
Why was he not perfected at the moment of his death? He died publicly professing Christ.
@@CameronRiecker If your definition of perfect is professing Christ then that completely contradicts your whole video and the thought that anybody could be in purgatory. Because with that logic then either you go to straight hell for unbelief or to Heaven for believing.
I don't think that this would communicate the idea to Protestants, and it would reinforce the idea that the concepts are irreconcilably different between Orthodox and Roman Catholics.
The stereotype of purgatory is: We have punishments due. "Punishment" is heard as "retribution" that must be satisfied. God cannot remit the punishments, even if he loves you, because he is holy. So he hands you over to suffer retribution till his sense of justice is satisfied.
The problem Protestants have is that salvation is entirely a matter of punishment, debt, and satisfying God's justice by way of it. If you still have an outstanding debt or punishments to be meted out, as soon as they hear that, they hear "Jesus wasn't enough."
For instance, with your illustration with your son, relationships have never been repaired by any sort of punishment at any point in history. It reinforces the image of "Jesus wasn't enough" since they believe that broken relationship is exactly what Jesus repaired, because we could not.
For the angels, it would provide exactly the opposite message of what you intend, because it would conflict with how they read the Parable of the Prodigal Son and the Parable of the Workers. The son who was loyal is angry the returned son is welcomed, and the father tries to console him about receiving him back.
I can guarantee a Protestant listening to this hears why they shouldn't believe in purgatory.
For Orthodox, we tend to chafe at the idea of a place of purgatory, and I have tried to explain it doesn't have to be a literal place but can be a metaphor for a state. Most Orthodox consider heaven, hell, and purgatory the exact same thing: the presence of God. It torments the wicked, purifies the impure, and delights the righteous. Different ideas prevailed east and west. The punishment isn't aimed at satisfying the relationship by paying the debt so much as it is repairing the relationship by correcting disordered desires. It is chastisement and a sort of medical treatment.
I don't think you accomplished the aims you were aiming for (and, since I have defended the idea to others, I am not in disagreement about purification after death).
"Justification" doesn't always have to do with legal justice, and that's the language used. It can, just as easily be simply making someone right, correcting. For instance, when Phineas thrust his spear through the man and woman, he did not propitiate God (God cannot be propitiated); what he did was purify Israel by removing the wickedness.
Likewise, if you say that God is correcting us, or chastising us, because we have wicked desires in our souls, that we still cling to them, and they must go, but God does not violate our free will, you communicate the same basic idea, but the entire tone and image changes both of God and the purification.
Thanks for the comment!
Yes, Jesus' sacrifice is sufficient for the salvation of the whole world, but that infinite grace has a finite reception. That's why people still sin after baptism.
Praying for the dead (which is absolutely part of the Judeo-Christian tradition) does not equal the Roman doctrine of Purgatory, or the system of temporal punishment, merits, and indulgences associated with it. It just doesn't. Most of what we read in the Fathers has to do with purification prior to the final judgment, for the sake of the "peace" of the souls awaiting Resurrection and Judgement. It's not the sort of transactional system of merits and indulgences that had developed by the late Middle Ages. It seems to me that Rome overstepped in its understanding of Purgatory, and left behind the Tradition of the first millennium.
Thanks for the comment!
So you agree that there is a purgatory, but you disagree with indulgences?
@@CameronRiecker I agree there is purification, but this doesn’t then equal a third spiritual reality that functions in the way that Rome describes “Purgatory;” specifically the idea of having to be punished for all sins committed because of a sense of Gods justice, and that this punishment can be alleviated by a system of indulgences or merits prescribed by the Roman pontiff. This language is much too legalistic, and isn’t in line with the Christian Tradition or the Scriptures.
@@CameronRiecker you can simply ask yourself, if Purgatory as described by Rome is the Apostolic tradition, why do none of the other Apostolic churches share this doctrine? Neither Ethiopians, Copts or Greeks recognize it as Apostolic teaching. One is forced to admit that it is a later innovation (Rome would say, a “development”). So you’re looking at sources from the Fathers trying to defend a doctrine that simply didn’t exist as such until much later. If it was part of the Apostolic Tradition, you’d find it in the other Apostolic churches (whom Rome herself recognizes as Apostolic).
As far as I know, other apostolic churches do believe in something like purgatory whether they want to admit their similarities with Rome or not. For instance, toll houses in Orthodoxy.
Also do we consider purgatory a “third spiritual reality?” It is intrinsically tied to heaven and will cease to exist when the last soul leaves for heaven.
Purgatory is a reflection of God’s justice as well as his mercy, since sending venial sinners to hell is unmerciful but letting their sins and recompense go is unjust. Justice has to do with law. Everyone who believes God is just has to accept some dimension of “legalism.” However we don’t profess purgatory and related doctrine to be a strictly legal endeavor. Your sins incur the eternal guilt of offending God as well as a temporal guilt of offending his creation; Jesus saves us from the eternal guilt which opens the door to heaven for us, but God in his wisdom can still apply temporal penance to us for our good. Just think what happens if forgiveness was always a blanket wiping away of all guilt: I steal someone’s wallet, murder them, and then slander their name, then I genuinely repent and confess and god forgives me, THEREFORE I no longer need to return the money I stole, go to prison, or restore his good name. The penance for these sins actually acts to sanctify us to complete our repentance (since if you don’t do it just how repentant are you), and it’s not just a top down punishment to appease legal justice. Indulgences (properly understood) can help alleviate these penances through the intercession of others, through works of mercy, etc, because these do the same thing as your penance in sanctifying you.
@@killianmiller6107 thanks for the comment!
Good point!
"Praying for the dead" - how do we know it has to do with Purgatory? How do we know it isn't praying for the lost?
Thanks for the comment!
Praying for the lost does not benefit them in any way.
We pray for all the faithful departed. Even if we don't know for certainty their eternal fate.
@@CameronRiecker " Even if we don't know for certainty their eternal fate." But Purgatory are for the saved and only the saved, correct? Why pray for them if they're already headed to heaven? And actually, Scripture doesn't say how or what way we are to pray for the dead. In other words, 'praying for the dead' isn't a proof text for Purgatory.
@@soulosxpiotov7280yes, they are technically saved but they're not in fully communion with God, hence the "process of purification". We (on earth) pray for them to be accepted in heaven asap. Because we don't know how long them soul bound to purification
@@kusumoanang "pray for them to be accepted in heaven asap." What is within the true believer that isn't 'accepted' to dwell in heaven? If Christ had already provided everything, including His righteousness and even His glory, and it is He who sanctifies, what is left that is 'unacceptable'?
Protestant will reject Purgatory based on their understanding of imputed righteousness. However imputed righteousness is a concept that only exists since the 16th century. The concept of purgatory on the other hand goes back to ancient Judaism.
Thanks for the comment!
To the best of my knowledge, the Jews today still pray for the dead.
Purgatory
The Catechism of the Catholic Church teaches:
All who die in God’s grace, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven (1030) This seems so simple. It’s common sense. Scripture is very clear when it says, “But nothing unclean shall enter [heaven]” (Rev. 21:27). Hab. 1:13 says, “You [God]… are of purer eyes than to behold evil and cannot look on wrong…” How many of us will be perfectly sanctified at the time of our deaths? I dare say most of us will be in need of further purification in order to enter the gates of heaven after we die, if, please God, we die in a state of grace.
In II Maccabees 12:39-46, we discover Judas Maccabeus and members of his Jewish military forces collecting the bodies of some fallen comrades who had been killed in battle. When they discovered these men were carrying “sacred tokens of the idols of Jamnia, which the law forbids the Jews to wear” (vs. 40), Judas and his companions discerned they had died as a punishment for sin. Therefore, Judas and his men “turned to prayer beseeching that the sin which had been committed might be wholly blotted out… He also took up a collection… and sent it to Jerusalem to provide for a sin offering. In doing this he acted very well and honorably… Therefore he made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin.”
Matthew 5:25-26 Make friends quickly with your accuser, while you are going with him to court, lest your accuser hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the guard, and you be put in prison; truly I say to you, you will never get out till you have paid the last penny
I Corinthians 3:11-15 15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved
1 John 5 16-17 reference to deadly (mortal) sin & non deadly sin (venial) sin
Luke 12 27-40 the four servants are treated differently, the faithful one gains Heaven, the second Hell & the other two, purgatory
Gods One Only True Apostolic Catholic Church is His Bride. He gave our first leader(Pope) The Keys to the Kingdom of Heaven (His authority, power, doctrine, Sacraments and Teachings); that He prayed everyone would remain in.
He rebuked the Pharisees and Scribes for making their own versions of His, like all 44,000 other Christian Churches and other Faiths have done.
He taught if we don’t remain in His Church, Doctrine, receiving His Sacraments and Teachings, we will not have Him and never enter Heaven.
Mt 23:1-39, Lk 11:37-54, Jn 1:42, 21:15-17, Mt 16:18-19, 10:1-4, Mk3:14-19, Eph 2:19-22, 1 Cor 12:28, Acts 20:28, Lk 22:28-32, 1 Pet 2:6-9
Remain in His Catholic Church, Doctrine & Gospel-Jn 10:16, 17:20-26, Eph 4:4-6,
2 JN1:9, 2 Thess3:6-16, Rom16:17, Heb 13:9, Gal 1:6-9, 2 Cor 11:3-4
Sacraments-Jn 3:5, Act 22:16, 2 Cor 5:18-20, Jn 20:21-23, Mt 18:17-18, Jn 6:51-59, 1 Cor 11:23-29, Eph 1:13, 2Cor 1:21-22, Mt19:4-6, Col 3:17-19, 2Cor5:20, 1:25-29, Lk22:28-32, Jm 5:16, Lk10:34 are a few pertinent verses.
Well said!
Based
Thanks for ther positive comment! :)
Unless it's in the Apocrypha, no it's not in the Bible. It was an idea posited by Augustine that Gregory I made Canon law. And that's all it is.
Thanks for the comment!
Where do you think Augustine and Gregory learned about it?
I don't think they just made it up. I think they learned it from the Tradition of the Apostles.
Purgatory
The Catechism of the Catholic Church teaches:
All who die in God’s grace, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven (1030) This seems so simple. It’s common sense. Scripture is very clear when it says, “But nothing unclean shall enter [heaven]” (Rev. 21:27). Hab. 1:13 says, “You [God]… are of purer eyes than to behold evil and cannot look on wrong…” How many of us will be perfectly sanctified at the time of our deaths? I dare say most of us will be in need of further purification in order to enter the gates of heaven after we die, if, please God, we die in a state of grace.
In II Maccabees 12:39-46, we discover Judas Maccabeus and members of his Jewish military forces collecting the bodies of some fallen comrades who had been killed in battle. When they discovered these men were carrying “sacred tokens of the idols of Jamnia, which the law forbids the Jews to wear” (vs. 40), Judas and his companions discerned they had died as a punishment for sin. Therefore, Judas and his men “turned to prayer beseeching that the sin which had been committed might be wholly blotted out… He also took up a collection… and sent it to Jerusalem to provide for a sin offering. In doing this he acted very well and honorably… Therefore he made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin.”
Matthew 5:25-26 Make friends quickly with your accuser, while you are going with him to court, lest your accuser hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the guard, and you be put in prison; truly I say to you, you will never get out till you have paid the last penny
I Corinthians 3:11-15 15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved
1 John 5 16-17 reference to deadly (mortal) sin & non deadly sin (venial) sin
Luke 12 27-40 the four servants are treated differently, the faithful one gains Heaven, the second Hell & the other two, purgatory
You're going to hell if you don't believe Christ paid for all your sins.
Thanks for the comment!
I think He did! Did you watch the video?
Literally everyone in purgatory believes that
@killianmiller6107 well that's because purgatory is imaginary, so anyone you imagine being there will believe whatever you imagine they do.
No, that’s literally the doctrine of purgatory, everyone who is there has been saved by the sacrifice of Jesus. The problem is that while they are justified, they are not yet perfectly sanctified for heaven.
@killianmiller6107 oh, besides the thief on the cross, you mean. Oh and Lazarus who both somehow just bypassed "purgatory"...
Whatever. GO Team Catholic!!!
Thanks for the comment!
Do you want to end the war? To end the war humanity has to talk to try to understand each other. There is only one truth, one reality, one God, and different people understand God or reality differently. Have you thought I exist and I have feelings and I disagree with you? I claim I have discovered the nature of God, do you think I could be joking talking about God? God is the most important, nothing is more important than God. Do you agree with me? Do you think is it possible to be joking talking about God? God is not a joke, God is the intelligent creator of the universe, God is the reason you exist and you experience reality. Do you agree with me that even if you don't agree with my God, even if you think my God doesn’t exist, I am infinitely serious talking about the only that matters and exists for me? How do you talk about your God, do you talk in good or bad faith? Do you talk about your God to create peace or to agitate? The police have to protect Speaker's Corner in Hyde Park in London and it's a place where people go to talk and listen. Speaker's Corner is a sacred place, the most respected place, the most needed place, a location to speak freely about whatever. My work has been written and said in Speaker's Corner. Only for Speaker's Corner London is the best city in the world. Is there any other city with Speaker's Corner?. Speaker's Corner is my favorite place in London. I want to promote Speaker's Corner offering my opinion. Go to Speaker's Corner in Hyde Park in the center of London on Sundays to witness people talking and listening about subjects and messages that are important for the talkers. People interact in Speaker's Corner. Do you trust me? Speaker's Corner is the solution to all the problems. I want to debate because God is necessary and I still haven't won a debate in my life. If you accept God is necessary would you accept humanity are deceived believing because too many people lie too much? I just need time to win the debate. My truth is atheism is a logical fallacy that assumes God is the religious idea of the creator of the creation to conclude wrongly no creator exists because a particular idea of God doesn’t exist. The true God is Spinoza's God. Did Spinoza explain well the nature of God? Do you want to be created or uncreated? It is better if an intelligent entity created the universe because without God reality doesn't matter, life is meaningless and death is terrifyingly the end. Logically the creation or what has a beginning of existence was created from what is eternal or creator. The originator created what has a beginning of existence. God is Time because created the universe from self from an eternal existence uncaused. God is Time and Space transforming because regardless of when the universe was created God existed always before. That's a fact, 100% sure, absolute certainty. God is impossible to understand precisely because created the universe after existing forever. God created self, God is a metaphysical entity with the capacity to experience the creation before it was created. God created love and hate, so God before creating the universe knew what is the experience of love and hate, kind of to the infinite. Is it possible to experience infinite love and hate? Can Allah or Jesus experience infinite love and hate? The creator of love and hate is surely incredible. Sometimes I think if there could be more than one Time or God. Two independent Times with two independent universes, with two different realities that don't mix or know about each other. Let's not overcomplicate things, because what is important is to understand we were created. If we were created atheism is false. If you think about what I just said you would feel incredibly better. And the Quran was never memorized. What would be the future of atheism if atheists continue to refuse to ask for proof that the Quran was memorized?. Thank you.
Thanks for the comment!
I agree that God is not a joke. We all need to repent!
there is a Book called. Get Us out of here. Maria Simma speaks with Nicki Eltz. Buy it You will understand more about Purgatory.
Thanks for the comment :)
St. Robert Bellarmine has a great book on Purgatory as well!
I appreciate that you communicate respectfully. However, as with your other video, I agree with the premise, just not the conclusion. The problem with purgatory is the same as the idea of limbo. There is simply no reason to believe this place exists. This place of temporal fire, has no basis in sound theology. Thomas Aquinas, as smart of a man as he was, had a really flawed justification for the belief in purgatory. One thing he didn't account for is the second judgement. If there are two judgements, how does purgatory make sense? Because you're handed your time in temporal fire and then you leave. There would be no reason for a judgement of the dead if that were the case. Purgatory is entirely incompatible with the final judgement. The only things that can truly save a sinner after death are prayers and God's mercy. Not temporal fire.
Thanks for the comment!
The finial judgement is a judgement of the human race as a whole. Since the human race is not done yet, it's not time to be judged!
I don't see why believing that there is a place of purification after this life is incompatible with the final judgement.
@@CameronRiecker thank you for responding. So as a former catholic, currently moving towards Orthodoxy I have heard both arguments. I can't say that I've heard that statement about the second judgement before. Could you possibly elaborate on that? Because the second judgement, the final judgement is supposed to be a judgement of the living and the dead. There's just no reason to judge the dead if everyone's first judgement is final. So, could you explain what exactly you mean by that? Because I feel like I'm not understanding what you're referring to there.
My thoughts are this are fairly simple... So Jesus Christ is not enough? His Death on the cross is insufficient to save us from our sin... So we have to suffer in Purgatory until we are forgiven over time through what? good works? Or we get bought out of there by someone? So we are saved by ours or others good works not the Son of God...
Still not convinced of Purgatory.
im not a member of the catholic church, but i have many friends in the church and have done some learning of it myself so someone else correct me if im wrong, but from what ive been told that Jesus is definitely enough. His blood forgives us of our sins but it doesnt take away from the fact we are still human and inherently sinful, and heaven and sin cannot mix and so its kinda where souls go to be purified for heaven. no one in purgatory isnt saved, its just that not everyones soul is pure enough for heaven right away. like i said someone correct me if im wrong cause im still learning
Jesus' Sacrifice is sufficient and infinite! But our reception is finite.
@@CameronRiecker only if we reject Christ and never repent after receiving Him. Christ's sacrifice was sufficient for all time. Future and Past. God loves us so much that we can choose to be apart from him and he will not force us into his presence... But if we do want to be with Him... Sorry Christ got you this far but gotta repent and feel infinite regret and pain like he did in purgatory? Separated from everyone... Including God if purgatory is to be believed... Sounds like He'll to me.
I see where you are coming from but it sounds like God's grace is finite if purgatory is real. I have grace for you but you are too dirty and sinful for my own Son's sacrifice to be with me... I see the Justice but not much Mercy. God perfectly balances both. And purgatory just seems like extra punishment to me.
Purgatory
The Catechism of the Catholic Church teaches:
All who die in God’s grace, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven (1030) This seems so simple. It’s common sense. Scripture is very clear when it says, “But nothing unclean shall enter [heaven]” (Rev. 21:27). Hab. 1:13 says, “You [God]… are of purer eyes than to behold evil and cannot look on wrong…” How many of us will be perfectly sanctified at the time of our deaths? I dare say most of us will be in need of further purification in order to enter the gates of heaven after we die, if, please God, we die in a state of grace.
In II Maccabees 12:39-46, we discover Judas Maccabeus and members of his Jewish military forces collecting the bodies of some fallen comrades who had been killed in battle. When they discovered these men were carrying “sacred tokens of the idols of Jamnia, which the law forbids the Jews to wear” (vs. 40), Judas and his companions discerned they had died as a punishment for sin. Therefore, Judas and his men “turned to prayer beseeching that the sin which had been committed might be wholly blotted out… He also took up a collection… and sent it to Jerusalem to provide for a sin offering. In doing this he acted very well and honorably… Therefore he made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin.”
Matthew 5:25-26 Make friends quickly with your accuser, while you are going with him to court, lest your accuser hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the guard, and you be put in prison; truly I say to you, you will never get out till you have paid the last penny
I Corinthians 3:11-15 15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved
1 John 5 16-17 reference to deadly (mortal) sin & non deadly sin (venial) sin
Luke 12 27-40 the four servants are treated differently, the faithful one gains Heaven, the second Hell & the other two, purgatory
@@geoffjs Only the clean will enter Heaven. Got it. So does Christ make the unclean clean and sinless or not. According to Catholic beliefs he does NOT. That is a Big problem for me. I also do not recognize the authority of Maccabees as I do the other books of the Bible. Likely a useful for knowledge book but not Authoritative as the Gospel and the Old Testament are.
I also saw no mention of Purgatory in Luke 12. But I may have the wrong passage.
For me it's Faith or nothing. Works prove Faith not the other way around. Good deeds get you a pat on the back straight down the wide road to destruction. Only the Straight and narrow path of Christ saves... Nothing can be added like Purgatory. And nothing can be subtracted like the value of Christ's sacrifice.
Well wishes for all my Catholic friends hoping you see the Truth in the Word and not try to place your Truth into the Word as many heretics have before.
God bless and keep you, God make his face shine upon you and give you his peace. Amen.
This is where LDS and Catholics have the biggest claim to what you are talking about
I'm not sure I understand what you mean? :)
If every sin has already been paid in full by Christ over 1900 years ago, and I will no longer experience wrath, ever, and because it is Christ who transforms me, and those true believers who were beheaded during the 7 year tribulation will go straight to God's throne room as it shows in Revelation in that they weren't in Purgatory for 10,000 years..... so, as a Protestant, your logic doesn't make sense, but anyway, as a Protestant, should I say "Hail Mary" 10,000 times as an INDULGENCE TO REDUCE TIME IN PURGATORY, or 1,000,000,000, or, just 100 times?
Thanks for the comment :)
You should say as many Hail Marys as it takes!
What fault did you see in my logic exactly?
That’s not how indulgences work.
16 minutes before you even get to scripture. You are reading way more into Matthew than what is there. There are2 issues with Macc. What the men were doing was idolatry. And because they had the custom is no more binding than having idols. The Jews had authority over the Old Testament. And the OT accepted by Jesus and the apostles did not accept Macc. as canon. As for the church fathers they are all over the place. That’s why Sola Scriptura is so important. Rome fostered the idea of purgatory because it frightened people into paying for indulgences.
Thanks for the comment!
What about the fact that the Dead Sea Scrolls contain many of the books Protestants don't accept?
In 2 Maccabees, I’d argue it wasn’t idolatry but superstition. Keep in mind they fought for those trying to defend the temple and against those who would put idols up in there. The amulets indicate a diminished trust in God but nonetheless they fought for God. Surely the Maccabees who discovered the dead would’ve condemned them when they found the amulets if they thought it was idolatry, but they did not, they prayed for them that their offense might be blotted out.
Much of the New Testament indicates the apostles drew from the Septuagint Greek OT, which did include the deuterocanonicals. In fact in Hebrews 11:35-37 there is an example that is ONLY referenced in 2 Maccabees.
@@killianmiller6107 you can argue that all you want
They were relying on idols for protection not god
I would add that I would not use Macc to support idolatry or purgatory
Jesus and the apostles accepted the Jewish OT. The Roman church had no authority to change the OT
Bro I just gave you all the reasons why it’s superstition and not idolatry, all you gave in response is an assertion without evidence.
You do the same with what the apostles considered scripture, asserting they used your canon without evidence, meanwhile I cited two points from influence from the Greek Septuagint and an obvious reference in Hebrews showing the NT pulled from the deuterocanon. The “Jewish canon” was not closed until AFTER apostolic times, and they didn’t have the authority anymore now that the church existed.
@@killianmiller6107 no you gave no reason at all why you call it superstition
I have seen many apologists discuss these verses and it universally described as idolatry
You misunderstand the imputed righteousness of Christ that is credited to the believers account.
Thanks for the comment!
In what way?
@@CameronRiecker well … if we must be pure to enter into heaven (and we must)..and if Christ is perfectly pure (and he is) …and he imputes to all those who are born again his perfect righteousness (and he does)…then the job is complete …at death a born again believer is ushered immediately to heaven because of Christ’s righteousness covering them (this is the blessed man who’s sins are not counted against him) … so we must be perfect and this is impossible to do so we trust that Christ was perfect in our place.
@@johnmarshall240 Christ is so perfect that He communicates His perfection to us! The reception of that perfection is imperfect because of our limited reception
@@CameronRiecker with man this is impossible, but with God, all things are possible (Matt 19:26) … Cameron..you’re a sweet man, but your works will never merit the salvific favor of God.
seems like most of my responses come from the book of hebrews. it is as hard to convince a catholic of the sufficiency of jesus sacrifice as it was for the writer, even Paul, to convince the jews. you say "to enter heaven you have to be pure". hebrews 10:10...we are SANCTIFIED thru the offering of the body of jesus christ once for all. hebrews 10:14.. for by one offering he has PERFECTED forever those who are sanctified.
1 john 1:7 ...the blood of jesus PURIFIES us from all sin. (sanctified, purified, perfected)
who are you going to believe? hebrews 10:19...**we have confidence to ENTER the most holy place by the blood of jesus.** rev. 7:14...they have washed their robes and made them WHITE in the blood of the lamb. rev. 1:7 to him who loved us and washed us from our sins in his own blood and made us KINGS AND PRIESTS to his God and Father...
whoever has the "Spirit of Christ" belongs to him/the body. it does not matter what the early church or the so called church fathers believed, they disagree. it matters only what jesus and the apostles taught. "any ploughboy can know as much or more than the priest".
that is what the popes feared most, persecuting the bible translators, to keep the book out the hands of the common people, collecting their indulgences $ for sin. the only way to be certain what the apostles taught is to rely on scripture, not probability.
pay back their debts in purgatory? no can do a thing to remove their sin, no can pay for their
own sin. justice? we are justified by faith. jesus paid the debt, in full. do you believe that?
study, alone, romans 1-8. justified freely. 2 macabees---if people are praying for the dead, does that make it true? the religious beliefs and practices of the jews were full of myths,
and idolatries. they killed the prophets of God. go figure. there was only a remnant who were faithful to the abrahamic/mosaic/davidic covenant. next> offer sacrifices??to who?
what sacrifices? dead animals? burnt offerings? nah! we offer the sacrifice of praise.
too bad you can't find such sayings in recognized scripture, just some men musing.
it is clearly not written in scripture or all of us would hear it taught. can't say that we have.
ubiquitous--what is popular, if everyone is doing it is a good clue to be skeptical, and is no surety of being what the apostles taught, or of being true. and yes, the church fell into error early on just as fast as the golden calf was formed in moses absence, and other idolatries
and the like. murmmering, the spirit of antichrist was already at work. such a child.
job? he offered sacrifices while his children were alive, in case they were sinning.
a slam dunk! paul considered himself wretched, a sinner, yet he knew that when he died,
he would be with the lord. there's some hard scripture for you. roman 7.
Thanks for the comment!
Catholics believe Jesus earned an infinite amount of grace and merit, but that there is a finite reception of that grace.
That is why Paul says there is something wanting in the Cross of Christ. Namely, our reception of grace. Col 1:24
@@CameronRiecker acts 9:15,16--paul's conversion. our tribulations, trials,
testing, persecutions, suffering and discipline takes place on this earth,
before we die. col. 1:24 has nothing to do with purgatory, working off sins after we die. the lord said he was going to show paul how much he would have to suffer for his names sake. namely taking the gospel to the world.
we all are appointed to suffering, with christ as an example of enduring.
nothing lacking in the cross. and----as for us--romans 4:7,8
"blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, and whose sins are covered; blessed is the man to whom the lord shall not impute sin."
i will remember their sins no more. the new covenant in jesus blood.
romans chapter 4, about the the righteousness of God being imputed to us.
nothing lacking in that "reception." it's a done deal. sweet jesus.
I just heard a sermon on Galatians and it drove home how blasphemous the teaching of purgatory is, without even referring to it. According to Paul if anyone preaches a different Gospel, which is no gospel, let them be 'anathema'. The council of Trent, pronounced that curse on anyone who preaches the Gospel. The whole point of the Gospel is that Jesus took our sin, all of it, and gave us His righteousness. If you have received the Holy Spirit and been reborn, you have the righteousness of Christ and do not need nor can you add to it. If you have God's Holy Spirit dwelling in you, God does not see any sin on you, he sees the Righteousness of His Son. Paul taught that when he sinned, it wasn't in his spirit but in his flesh. When we give up this body of death and receive our glorified body we will be totally sinless both legally and actually.
Are you saying that a person can no longer sin after justification or that the sin does not affect the person's soul only their body?
@@CameronRiecker No a Christian can sin. But that sin has been paid for along with all their other sins. The most significant aspect of being Born Again is that that person has become the gift of the Father to the Son. Those the Father have given to the Son will be preserved. None shall be lost. I quote briefly. I trust that you know where to look up the rest of the context.
Therefore there is now no condemnation at all for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.
And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters; and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.
A Born Again Christian is a new creation. Something you apparently do not comprehend. We are a human with the Spirit of God living within us.
@@CameronRiecker You could experience the Joy of your salvation if you would just quit stubbornly following the blind teachers. Listen to what Jesus says not the pope. You misunderstand the depth of your depravity. You are so sinful that you cannot contribute anything to your salvation. It is all of God. The just shall live by faith. It is total submission to God. Jesus said, "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.
"
Purgatory
All who die in God’s grace, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven (1030) This seems so simple. It’s common sense. Scripture is very clear when it says, “But nothing unclean shall enter [heaven]” (Rev. 21:27). Hab. 1:13 says, “You [God]… are of purer eyes than to behold evil and cannot look on wrong…” How many of us will be perfectly sanctified at the time of our deaths? I dare say most of us will be in need of further purification in order to enter the gates of heaven after we die, if, please God, we die in a state of grace.
In II Maccabees 12:39-46, we discover Judas Maccabeus and members of his Jewish military forces collecting the bodies of some fallen comrades who had been killed in battle. When they discovered these men were carrying “sacred tokens of the idols of Jamnia, which the law forbids the Jews to wear” (vs. 40), Judas and his companions discerned they had died as a punishment for sin. Therefore, Judas and his men “turned to prayer beseeching that the sin which had been committed might be wholly blotted out… He also took up a collection… and sent it to Jerusalem to provide for a sin offering. In doing this he acted very well and honorably… Therefore he made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin.”
Matthew 5:25-26 Make friends quickly with your accuser, while you are going with him to court, lest your accuser hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the guard, and you be put in prison; truly I say to you, you will never get out till you have paid the last penny
I Corinthians 3:11-15 15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved
1 John 5 16-17 reference to deadly (mortal) sin & non deadly sin (venial) sin
Luke 12 27-40 the four servants are treated differently, the faithful one gains Heaven, the second Hell & the other two, purgatory
@@geoffjs Hmm... yea, quite complicated. Much more complicated than, "Today you shall be with me in paradise".
No one goes to heaven pure. The Bible says the best we have to offer are but filthy rags. We are counted/ made pure by the blood. Your whole premise is incorrect from the beginning. The BEST we have to offer are but filthy rags. Paul lamented this fact.
Thanks for the comment!
That's why it takes an all powerful God to make us good :)
The “filthy rags” argument from Isaiah 64:6 only works out of context, lest you say a corporal work of mercy like feeding the hungry out of love for them is a filthy work. Feeding the hungry to signal your virtue is filthy, but why should we say the former is also filthy? Would you say the “good works that God prepared for us in advance” in Ephesians 2:10 are filthy? If so then you’re saying God prepared the justified (Ephesians 2:8-9) to do filthy works. Calling all our deeds filthy contradicts all the numerous references to righteous deeds in scripture. I should note that all meritorious works are post-justification and always in response to grace working in us; no work can be good without grace. As for what’s going on in Isaiah, you can’t just take a snippet of a verse and build a theology around it. The prior verse speaks of how God “meets him who joyfully works righteousness.” You can’t just nullify that verse to say what you want to say about filthy works. With the context of verse 5, the “our” in verse 6 doesn’t speak of every person without exception, but of the Israelites who have been in sin for a long time; their habit of living in sin dirties any external good work they may do because internally they are corrupt.
@@killianmiller6107 and all of that makes you no more "pure" when you enter heaven. We are still sinners that have nothing to fall back on but the grace of Christ. Mother Theresa was no more pure than anyone else. In not saying all sins are equal, but all deserve hell.
No indication that you are going to stop using the “filthy rags”argument, which is unfortunate.
I will say that saints like Mother Theresa are quite eager to confirm that they are sinners; their vicinity to the light of grace makes it much easier to see all the stains on their soul. Indeed all we can fall back on is the grace of Christ, but we are called to live in this grace and increase what was given to us through good works. It’s interesting how you say we are still sinners and yet you also believe we have been saved and purified of all sin by Jesus’s sacrifice. Tell me how that works
2nd Maccabees is not Scripture because it was written by syncretistic Jews (half pagan Jews). God always spoke through true men of God; not men who corrupted and perverted the worship of God like the Maccabees did.
These Jews took the practice of praying for the dead from the pagans that were around them. This shouldn't be surprising considering the Jews as a people have always perverted the worship of God with pagan practices since the moment God took them out of Egypt (remember the golden calf) (Exo. 32:4).
While 2nd Maccabees is historically reliable; it is an historically reliable account written by a people who were mixing idolatry with true worship. The beliefs of the Maccabean Jews are questionable at best and they could never hold a candle to Moses, Joshua, David, and the prophets. The Maccabean Jews were not men of God, they were a very confused people whose spiritual teachings were corrupted by paganism.
Thanks for the comment!
As a counterargument...
Solomon wrote a good chunk of the Old Testament.
Balaam makes a prophecy about Christ.
@@CameronRiecker You're welcome. Thank you for the reply. Please allow me to rebut.
> Solomon wrote a good chunk of the Old Testament.
Solomon was a holy man of God who was made the wisest man on earth by God (1 Kings 3:11-12). God chose Solomon to build the temple over his father king David (1 Chron. 28:3-5). That means God considered Solomon to be more holy than king David before he fell into the sin of idolatry. Solomon never wrote his books while practicing idolatry. The Bible says that Solomon wrote Proverbs and Songs of Solomon before he fell into the sin of idolatry (1 Kings 4:29-30). Note how Solomon doesn't fall into idolatry until 1 Kings 11:1-5. Solomon then repented of his idolatry before he wrote Ecclesiastes (Ecc. 12:13-14). The book of Ecclesiastes teaches against idolatry (Ecc. 5:1) (as does Proverbs). Solomon was pure (holy) when he wrote all his books. The Maccabees on the other hand, were never pure (holy). The Maccabees wrote their books while practicing idolatry, teaching idolatry, and they never repented of their idolatry.
>Baalaam makes a prophecy about Christ.
Baalaam never wrote a book of the Bible. Baalaam was not a man of God, he was a pagan prophet. God commands us not to listen to pagan prophets even if their prophecies come to pass (Deut. 13:1-4). God says He allows this to happen to prove our hearts to see whether or not we love Him with all of our heart and all of our soul (Deut. 13:3)
God's Word says that the Holy Ghost only used holy (pure) men of God to write His Word (2 Pet. 1:20-21) not half idolater half God worshippers.
@@Nickisgodly3781what translation are you using for 2 Peter scripture? I've looked at a few translations and it seems either you've added some pieces that aren't in there or the few I've looked at may be missing it.
@@thundersmite2162 2 Peter 1:20-21 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost. (KJV)
When Peter writes "prophecy of scripture" he is referring to the entire Old Testament. Peter is discussing in these verses how Scripture originated.
@@thundersmite2162 The translations that omit "holy" from "holy men of God" in 2 Peter 1:21 are translated from the Alexandrian text type (which were written by Egyptian gnostic heretics). The reason why these Egyptian heretics omitted the word "holy" from "holy men of God" is because they didn't believe men had to be holy to speak divine revelation from God. They believed any pagan (including themselves) could speak divine revelation from God which is why they omitted the second "holy" in 2 Peter 1:21.
The translations that do include "holy men of God" in 2 Peter 1:21 are translated from the majority text (which were written by the faithful followers of Christ in the churches that were in Asia minor). That's why we can trust the Majority Text over the Alexandrian text (because it was copied down by actual Christians, not gnostic heretics who omitted things from the Bible that didn't fit their pagan religion).
The big question is why was purgatory created? It is totally unnecessary in light of the all sufficient sacrifice of Jesus. Once for all.
When the Holy Spirit convicts you of sin and you repent... that means you confess that you are a sinner justly deserving God's wrath, and you want to be purged of it, to be made clean. At that point you are reborn, receive the Holy Spirit and are a new creation. There is now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus. This is entirely by the grace of God, not of any works on your part lest any should boast. He who has begun a good work in you is faithful to complete it. Jesus did not tell the man on the next cross that today he would be in purgatory. The beggar Lazarus was not in purgatory.
If you are truly born again then you should understand this. If you believe in purgatory, then I have to question whether you have truly repented of your sins and placed your eternal salvation in the hands of Jesus alone.
To believe that someone here on earth, can pray, or do works to speed your release from purgatory into heaven is to miss the whole point of salvation.
Not at all! Sin separates us from God. Do you need a list of the hundreds of verses admonishing Christians to repent, confess their sins and RETURN TO GOD? Do you need the reference to Paul forgiving sin IN THE PERSON OF CHRIST? Do you need the verses detailing Christ giving UNPRECEDENTED POWER over sin to the Apostles? Are you not aware that Paul wrote of our being saved AT JUDGMENT - but only as if PASSING THROUGH FIRE? Are you unaware that nothing impure enters God's Kingdom?
Since NO ONE is worthy of heaven, and YOU cannot achieve heaven by the WORK of faith or your WORK of inviting Christ into your heart or your WORK of saying the Sinner's prayer, how do you expect to be automatically saved? If Christ paid for all sin, then Hitler is dining in heaven with Golda Meir. Does that make sense?
I cannot understand your objection - except that you have been taught a very modern and Americanized version of Christianity. I used to believe as you do, but ultimately it all made no sense and I had to leave.
@@HAL9000-su1mz Actually it is not modern or American. It is all in the Bible and has been codified in, among other things, the Westminster Confession of Faith which is over 500 years old. You misused and misapplied too many verses for me to argue here. If you are truly Born Again, I'll pray for you and trust the Holy Spirit to guide you into all truth. I see from reading below you reject the reformed faith completely. The roman catholic church as it is today is not a Christian church but a political cult. There may be Born Again members but the councils reject the Gospel. The roman catholic church at the time of Luther was intensely corrupt and little has changed, he wanted to clean it up but they murdered protestants for hundreds of years and separation was the only possible outcome.
Thanks for the comment! We are saved by Christ, but not from all punishment. That's why we still die (punishment for Original Sin) even after baptism.
Purgatory
The Catechism of the Catholic Church teaches:
All who die in God’s grace, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven (1030) This seems so simple. It’s common sense. Scripture is very clear when it says, “But nothing unclean shall enter [heaven]” (Rev. 21:27). Hab. 1:13 says, “You [God]… are of purer eyes than to behold evil and cannot look on wrong…” How many of us will be perfectly sanctified at the time of our deaths? I dare say most of us will be in need of further purification in order to enter the gates of heaven after we die, if, please God, we die in a state of grace.
In II Maccabees 12:39-46, we discover Judas Maccabeus and members of his Jewish military forces collecting the bodies of some fallen comrades who had been killed in battle. When they discovered these men were carrying “sacred tokens of the idols of Jamnia, which the law forbids the Jews to wear” (vs. 40), Judas and his companions discerned they had died as a punishment for sin. Therefore, Judas and his men “turned to prayer beseeching that the sin which had been committed might be wholly blotted out… He also took up a collection… and sent it to Jerusalem to provide for a sin offering. In doing this he acted very well and honorably… Therefore he made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin.”
Matthew 5:25-26 Make friends quickly with your accuser, while you are going with him to court, lest your accuser hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the guard, and you be put in prison; truly I say to you, you will never get out till you have paid the last penny
I Corinthians 3:11-15 15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved
1 John 5 16-17 reference to deadly (mortal) sin & non deadly sin (venial) sin
Luke 12 27-40 the four servants are treated differently, the faithful one gains Heaven, the second Hell & the other two, purgatory
EVEN IF the state of purification was created, the Church has the POWER to create it. Christ gave that power to the Church. Must we show you where? Hint: Matthew 16 and 18.
Secondarily, the state of purification was created by God - out of unfathomable mercy - ONLY for the saved. If you do not need purification, you cannot be saved.
Otherwise you declare yourself to be perfect before God - which is self-deception. If we say we have not sinned we make God a liar. 1 John 1:10 Do you?
Your problem stems from indulging your ego. Secondarily, you lack a complete bible. Thirdly, you have no no authoritative Church to set you straight.
My advice is to humble yourself and admit that you do not know everything and that you are not perfect. Oh, and read 1 Corinthians 3:10-14. We are tested on that day. If our work - WORK! - burns up, we shall be saved, but only as if passing through fire. The Refiner's fire. The fire which purifies. The fire which PURGES.