I’ve been doing scarf joints with a decorative veneer or thin stock strip with the headstock / volute material the same as the back of the body. Looks wonderful and you can get away with getting much shorter $$$ exotic blanks for the neck
Great stuff! 😊 Rick Turner said they ran tests and found that tension on the nut and saddle remains the same regardless of break angles or heights. Tension only changes when string gauge or tuning does 🩵
I don't know Rick Turner, but if he made that statement physics says he's wrong. The weight of the string on the nut/saddle is directly proportional to the tension on the string times the sine of the angle that the string takes over the nut. When the angle is 0, like if the string was just touching the nut, there would be no weight on the nut at all, because sin(0) = 0.0. If the headstock was at a 90 degree angle then the nut would be holding the entire tension of the string, because sin(90) = 1.0. At 45 degrees the weight on the nut would be 0.707 times the tension. At 10 degrees it would be 0.174 times the tension. At 17 degrees the weight would be 0.292 times the tension, or almost twice the tension at 10 degrees.
I tried to find what Rick Turner supposedly said on this subject, and couldn't find anything. He did have a rant (his word, not mine) on string tension where he said "Also, changing the break angle of the strings from nut to tuner post or bridge to tailpiece (if any) does NOT affect tension" which was NOT talking about the tension or weight of the string on the nut or bridge, it was ONLY talking about affecting string tension...
@@alamaralaa This was a conversation I had with Rick about string tension on acoustic instruments. Thanks for clarifying the physics of pressure exerted on the top. It's about the difference between tension and compression, right?
I don't really get the scarf joint = cheap either. The best I can think of is maybe since carving the neck from a single block of wood means you spent more to purchase that block of wood and you end up throwing a bunch of it away, compared to a scarf joint on a thinner piece of wood. And that cost gets transferred to the consumer. For a lot people, costing more MUST mean it's better. From there, it gets passed on from one player to the next to the next, and so on. Though, I must confess that I've always worried about the amount of end grain in a scarf joint glue up. But if you choose to epoxy in carbon fiber stiffening rods in the neck, that will make the scarf joint nigh on indestructible.
It is a fallacy that end grain gluing is not strong. It is actually about 2 times stronger than the short grain of the wood, while the long grain of the wood is about 12 times stronger than the short grain (with maple). Here is a youtube video of testing that was done to test end grain glue strength against both long and short grain strength: th-cam.com/video/m7HxBa9WVis/w-d-xo.html While the end grain in a scarf joint is not as strong as the long grain wood itself (long grain being about 6 times as strong as glued end grain for the same area in maple), it is stronger than the short grain wood (glued end grain being about 2.3 times stronger than short grain for the same area in maple). Given the amount of end grain glue area for the scarf joint (several times the cross sectional area of the neck shaft) vs the cross sectional area of the headstock (about the same as the cross sectional area of the neck shaft) the scarf joint should be as strong, if not stronger than, a non-scarfed angled neck with an angled headstock.
@@HighlineGuitars It is very interesting. The thing that I noticed about where the scarf joint broke is that it seems to be along the grain, right above the glue joint. In other words, it wasn't the glue joint that failed, it was the headstock splitting ALONG the wood grain, which is what happens with short grain. He did say there seemed to be a bit of the glue joint that had been starved of glue, so part of it broke there, and that may have actually been where the break started. I think that weak part of the glue joint started to split open, until it hit the parts that had been properly glued, and then the split along the grain to complete the failure. I've never had a headstock break before, either scarfed or not, but I did see a broken Jackson neck years ago that had broken along the scarf glue joint, then along the fretboard glue joint, leaving a V shape on the neck. So, I don't think that the fretboard adds too much strength to the scarf joint, at least for forces applied to the back of the neck. Or maybe that particular neck was just glue starved in general.
Couple questions on this: 1. What are your CAM operations for the headstock since a 2D contour can’t reach everything on either side and so clearing operations ALSO must clear contours for the opposite side’s contour operation? 2. How do you mark tuner holes to drill since you’re using a 3 axis CNC?
Thanks. I agree either way works fine but I don't like the look of the scarf joint. It doesn't please my eye. :) I don't mind the look of multi-piece laminated necks though.
I like how the one piece angled neck looks but it bugs me a lot to see so much wood wasted, however the time it takes to make a scarf joint (and possibly losing a blank due to alignment/gluing issues) probably compounds to a lot more waste.
Chris. First, thanks for all of the great content! If you had an 8/4 or thicker piece of mahogany, would you CNC one neck out of it or resaw it and make 2 necks with scarf joints?
Better... Laminated neck, cut profile of neck out of like 3 pieces, flipping them from 1 piece of wood (4/4 usually). Can have angled neck, no scarf joint, with thin wood, and flipping pieces prevents some long term wood warping because pieces are warping against each other. For bonus you can put accent pieces between to make it look even fancier (and cover up problem where 3 pieces of 4/4 aren't wide enough for headstock sometimes. Scarf joint in almost any case is good enough. Agree with everything he says here, but I like my way better.
Hi, Chris. As a total newb who has yet to actually build an instrument (I'm in the prototype phase, using pine for test dummies), I wanted to ask you about a subject you've already discussed in other videos: That is: laminated necks! I know you're not very fond of them, and you've given some good advice on what to look for in a laminated neck. But -- just asking -- would a laminated neck, with the grain of the stringers running in a different direction from the main neck shaft wood, mitigate some of the structural issues you discuss (e.g., short grain)? Probably annoying of me to ask, but I'm a bassist who wants to make basses, and honestly, laminated necks are pretty much the norm -- at least for the basses I own, like, and play. And so, if a laminated neck is done properly, with grain alignment and all the other things you mention in your video on the subject, would that somehow mitigate the structural problems you discuss? And also: I swear I saw a video of yours where you started with super-thick stock for a one-piece neck with an angled headstock, but you removed the excess thickness along the neck shaft before putting it on your CNC. The "beef" was all there for the headstock itself, but you had "trimmed the fat" from the majority of the blank, which didn't need it. What about that method? It seemed sensible to me, even if the machine is "carving air" for longer than necessary. Or was it a two-part carve, in MeshCAM, with regions assigned?
Actually, I have no problem with laminated necks as long as they are done correctly, meaning the grain on one side of the centerline mirrors the grain on the other side. The trimmed neck you saw me make in that video was done with two separate carves. I had to trim the excess because I didn't have a long enough bit at the time.
You DO NOT want to have the grain going in different directions, like plywood. All the grain should run from the headstock to the heel. Adding in layers with the grain direction going in the opposite direction, i.e. from the back of the neck to the fretboard, would weaken it, not strengthen it.
I have never built a guitar, but I have made chairs and furniture for many years and I was wondering why you can't take a straight grained blank, steam the end and bend it in a form to put the angle between the neck and head stock? Is this ever done or is there some simple reason why this isn't? thanks.
A scarf joint is cheaper with respect to materials. You use less wood. You might be able to get 2 or 3 necks out of the same piece of wood with a scarf joint compared to one without. However, it's more expensive in terms of labor. Whether it's cheaper overall depends on the costs of the material vs time to make the scarf.
Regarding Headstock Strength, it seems to me that another important consideration is the Truss Rod access location being either at the Nut or Heel end. I think the amount of wood removed at the Nut end, and the location of stress if the guitar falls, makes that a bad choice. It's heartbreaking to see so many beautiful, and vintage Gibsons have their Headstocks broken off. The wheel type truss rod adjustment at the heel/body end of the neck, seems like a good design. Do you think that is a better location for the Truss rod adjustment location, and neck strength? Thanks
A big factor in Gibson headstock breaks is the sharper angle. The sharper angle pretty much guarantees the headstock will be the first thing to hit the floor if it falls on its back.
@@scottakam Definitely! I've had 2 guitars fall off of a Stand once in decades of daily playing. Both survived without any damage. But, the Airlines managed to break the headstock clean off one of my guitars inside a nice padded hard shell case, with the strings detuned and extra padding around the headstock. None were Gibsons.
Never wrap a headstock with padding when transporting it in a case. Any impact to the case will be transmitted to the headstock via the extra padding. Instead, let the headstock float inside the case with nothing touching it.
@@HighlineGuitars There are wide variety of opposing views on this topic. Here is a quote from PriemierGuitar in their March 23, 2023 article titled: How to Ship an Acoustic Guitar which states "Putting padding around your guitar’s headstock is the best way to ensure it from being damaged during shipment." This article even has a photo of the padding. If anyone knows of scientific tests conducted that demonstrate if it's better to pad around the headstock or not, please post a comment. Thanks
The way to make the strongest angled headstock is by steam-bending the neck blank. Relish Guitars (Switzerland) do this and the results are immensely impressive. See their video overview of the process at th-cam.com/video/-731OLDvj0I/w-d-xo.html
Thirty tears ago the headstock of my Les Paul (mahogany, no scarf joint) broke off two months after I bought the guitar. My cat toppled it. Luckily it could be repaired by a luthier.
Thanks for saying the right thing about scarf joints-*¨*-. ¸¸🌈 I don't know about the sound quality either ( ˘-ω-˘ ). oஇ. But I will always use scarf joints for strength even if it takes a lot of time and effort. Thanks 😃🙏🙏🙏.
I’ve been doing scarf joints with a decorative veneer or thin stock strip with the headstock / volute material the same as the back of the body. Looks wonderful and you can get away with getting much shorter $$$ exotic blanks for the neck
I do that too. I use a little thicker piece and run it under the end of the fretboard. Looks different and is super solid. Scarf sandwich!
Great stuff! 😊 Rick Turner said they ran tests and found that tension on the nut and saddle remains the same regardless of break angles or heights. Tension only changes when string gauge or tuning does 🩵
Bingo! I've been saying that for years, but whenever I stress it, the know-it-alls get bent out of shape.
I don't know Rick Turner, but if he made that statement physics says he's wrong. The weight of the string on the nut/saddle is directly proportional to the tension on the string times the sine of the angle that the string takes over the nut. When the angle is 0, like if the string was just touching the nut, there would be no weight on the nut at all, because sin(0) = 0.0. If the headstock was at a 90 degree angle then the nut would be holding the entire tension of the string, because sin(90) = 1.0. At 45 degrees the weight on the nut would be 0.707 times the tension. At 10 degrees it would be 0.174 times the tension. At 17 degrees the weight would be 0.292 times the tension, or almost twice the tension at 10 degrees.
I tried to find what Rick Turner supposedly said on this subject, and couldn't find anything. He did have a rant (his word, not mine) on string tension where he said "Also, changing the break angle of the strings from nut to tuner post or bridge to tailpiece (if any) does NOT affect tension" which was NOT talking about the tension or weight of the string on the nut or bridge, it was ONLY talking about affecting string tension...
@@alamaralaa This was a conversation I had with Rick about string tension on acoustic instruments. Thanks for clarifying the physics of pressure exerted on the top. It's about the difference between tension and compression, right?
Clearly I misunderstood and/or misquoted him. 🙏
I don't really get the scarf joint = cheap either. The best I can think of is maybe since carving the neck from a single block of wood means you spent more to purchase that block of wood and you end up throwing a bunch of it away, compared to a scarf joint on a thinner piece of wood. And that cost gets transferred to the consumer. For a lot people, costing more MUST mean it's better. From there, it gets passed on from one player to the next to the next, and so on.
Though, I must confess that I've always worried about the amount of end grain in a scarf joint glue up. But if you choose to epoxy in carbon fiber stiffening rods in the neck, that will make the scarf joint nigh on indestructible.
It is a fallacy that end grain gluing is not strong. It is actually about 2 times stronger than the short grain of the wood, while the long grain of the wood is about 12 times stronger than the short grain (with maple). Here is a youtube video of testing that was done to test end grain glue strength against both long and short grain strength:
th-cam.com/video/m7HxBa9WVis/w-d-xo.html
While the end grain in a scarf joint is not as strong as the long grain wood itself (long grain being about 6 times as strong as glued end grain for the same area in maple), it is stronger than the short grain wood (glued end grain being about 2.3 times stronger than short grain for the same area in maple). Given the amount of end grain glue area for the scarf joint (several times the cross sectional area of the neck shaft) vs the cross sectional area of the headstock (about the same as the cross sectional area of the neck shaft) the scarf joint should be as strong, if not stronger than, a non-scarfed angled neck with an angled headstock.
@@alamaralaa I thought this playlist was interesting: th-cam.com/play/PLdMIu4PdK7bUQTpUvHjh3_QDLBj8thLJw.html&si=PzpruQgXRDmyCIOJ
@@HighlineGuitars It is very interesting. The thing that I noticed about where the scarf joint broke is that it seems to be along the grain, right above the glue joint. In other words, it wasn't the glue joint that failed, it was the headstock splitting ALONG the wood grain, which is what happens with short grain. He did say there seemed to be a bit of the glue joint that had been starved of glue, so part of it broke there, and that may have actually been where the break started. I think that weak part of the glue joint started to split open, until it hit the parts that had been properly glued, and then the split along the grain to complete the failure.
I've never had a headstock break before, either scarfed or not, but I did see a broken Jackson neck years ago that had broken along the scarf glue joint, then along the fretboard glue joint, leaving a V shape on the neck. So, I don't think that the fretboard adds too much strength to the scarf joint, at least for forces applied to the back of the neck. Or maybe that particular neck was just glue starved in general.
Couple questions on this:
1. What are your CAM operations for the headstock since a 2D contour can’t reach everything on either side and so clearing operations ALSO must clear contours for the opposite side’s contour operation?
2. How do you mark tuner holes to drill since you’re using a 3 axis CNC?
1. th-cam.com/video/HM1XyEghbJI/w-d-xo.htmlsi=sBTlgearz2yu_tea&t=955
2. I use a drill press for the tuner holes.
Thanks. I agree either way works fine but I don't like the look of the scarf joint. It doesn't please my eye. :) I don't mind the look of multi-piece laminated necks though.
I like Ernie Ball/Music Man's 4+2 headstock solution. No string trees required. Also strings go straight over the nut.
Agreed - it's a brilliant solution. Sadly, they have a patent on it...
@@stephenbunch9650 their patent could be beat due to prior use. Both Epiphone and Tiesco used 4x2 headstocks in the 60’s.
I like how the one piece angled neck looks but it bugs me a lot to see so much wood wasted, however the time it takes to make a scarf joint (and possibly losing a blank due to alignment/gluing issues) probably compounds to a lot more waste.
Carbon material rod support inside the neck is also viable.
Chris. First, thanks for all of the great content! If you had an 8/4 or thicker piece of mahogany, would you CNC one neck out of it or resaw it and make 2 necks with scarf joints?
Resaw with a scarf joint. Then CNC the contour and perimeter shape.
Better...
Laminated neck, cut profile of neck out of like 3 pieces, flipping them from 1 piece of wood (4/4 usually). Can have angled neck, no scarf joint, with thin wood, and flipping pieces prevents some long term wood warping because pieces are warping against each other.
For bonus you can put accent pieces between to make it look even fancier (and cover up problem where 3 pieces of 4/4 aren't wide enough for headstock sometimes.
Scarf joint in almost any case is good enough. Agree with everything he says here, but I like my way better.
I wonder if there are people out there who would go nuts for an entire guitar carved from a single giant monster slab of mahogany 😄
@@LeonRHarvey me and my dad are trying to make one
Hi, Chris. As a total newb who has yet to actually build an instrument (I'm in the prototype phase, using pine for test dummies), I wanted to ask you about a subject you've already discussed in other videos:
That is: laminated necks! I know you're not very fond of them, and you've given some good advice on what to look for in a laminated neck. But -- just asking -- would a laminated neck, with the grain of the stringers running in a different direction from the main neck shaft wood, mitigate some of the structural issues you discuss (e.g., short grain)?
Probably annoying of me to ask, but I'm a bassist who wants to make basses, and honestly, laminated necks are pretty much the norm -- at least for the basses I own, like, and play. And so, if a laminated neck is done properly, with grain alignment and all the other things you mention in your video on the subject, would that somehow mitigate the structural problems you discuss?
And also: I swear I saw a video of yours where you started with super-thick stock for a one-piece neck with an angled headstock, but you removed the excess thickness along the neck shaft before putting it on your CNC. The "beef" was all there for the headstock itself, but you had "trimmed the fat" from the majority of the blank, which didn't need it.
What about that method? It seemed sensible to me, even if the machine is "carving air" for longer than necessary. Or was it a two-part carve, in MeshCAM, with regions assigned?
Actually, I have no problem with laminated necks as long as they are done correctly, meaning the grain on one side of the centerline mirrors the grain on the other side. The trimmed neck you saw me make in that video was done with two separate carves. I had to trim the excess because I didn't have a long enough bit at the time.
You DO NOT want to have the grain going in different directions, like plywood. All the grain should run from the headstock to the heel. Adding in layers with the grain direction going in the opposite direction, i.e. from the back of the neck to the fretboard, would weaken it, not strengthen it.
I have never built a guitar, but I have made chairs and furniture for many years and I was wondering why you can't take a straight grained blank, steam the end and bend it in a form to put the angle between the neck and head stock? Is this ever done or is there some simple reason why this isn't? thanks.
@@peterpischak3540 probably because the bend has to be sharp and not rounded.
Scarf joint is more stable over time... no question.the first five frets go out of straight otherwise
Thanks
Can you please provide the neck thickness and the angle of cut? I never achieved to have the neck scarf-joint in that position. Thanks!
About an inch thick. 10° headstock angle.
@@HighlineGuitars thank you!
A scarf joint is cheaper with respect to materials. You use less wood. You might be able to get 2 or 3 necks out of the same piece of wood with a scarf joint compared to one without.
However, it's more expensive in terms of labor. Whether it's cheaper overall depends on the costs of the material vs time to make the scarf.
Regarding Headstock Strength, it seems to me that another important consideration is the Truss Rod access location being either at the Nut or Heel end. I think the amount of wood removed at the Nut end, and the location of stress if the guitar falls, makes that a bad choice. It's heartbreaking to see so many beautiful, and vintage Gibsons have their Headstocks broken off. The wheel type truss rod adjustment at the heel/body end of the neck, seems like a good design. Do you think that is a better location for the Truss rod adjustment location, and neck strength? Thanks
A big factor in Gibson headstock breaks is the sharper angle. The sharper angle pretty much guarantees the headstock will be the first thing to hit the floor if it falls on its back.
@@scottakam Definitely! I've had 2 guitars fall off of a Stand once in decades of daily playing. Both survived without any damage. But, the Airlines managed to break the headstock clean off one of my guitars inside a nice padded hard shell case, with the strings detuned and extra padding around the headstock. None were Gibsons.
Never wrap a headstock with padding when transporting it in a case. Any impact to the case will be transmitted to the headstock via the extra padding. Instead, let the headstock float inside the case with nothing touching it.
@@HighlineGuitars There are wide variety of opposing views on this topic. Here is a quote from PriemierGuitar in their March 23, 2023 article titled: How to Ship an Acoustic Guitar which states "Putting padding around your guitar’s headstock is the best way to ensure it from being damaged during shipment." This article even has a photo of the padding.
If anyone knows of scientific tests conducted that demonstrate if it's better to pad around the headstock or not, please post a comment. Thanks
Texas Toast even uses a 7° angle, I believe.
The way to make the strongest angled headstock is by steam-bending the neck blank. Relish Guitars (Switzerland) do this and the results are immensely impressive. See their video overview of the process at th-cam.com/video/-731OLDvj0I/w-d-xo.html
Thirty tears ago the headstock of my Les Paul (mahogany, no scarf joint) broke off two months after I bought the guitar. My cat toppled it. Luckily it could be repaired by a luthier.
Thanks for saying the right thing about scarf joints-*¨*-. ¸¸🌈
I don't know about the sound quality either ( ˘-ω-˘ ). oஇ.
But I will always use scarf joints for strength even if it takes a lot of time and effort.
Thanks 😃🙏🙏🙏.