Laumann 1891 and Schonberger-Laumann 1894 Semiauto Pistols
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 7 ก.ย. 2024
- Josef Laumann was an Austrian designer of early ring-trigger manually repeating pistols, and was one of the first to develop that type of handgun into a semiautomatic. He took an 1891 pattern ring trigger gun and adapted it with an 1892 patent into a simple blowback self-loader - coming very close to being the first self-loading pistol actually built in the process (although he was just beaten out by the Salvator-Dormus).
He continued to refine the design with the financial aid of the Schonberger brothers, who were his financiers in the endeavor. With their assistance, he produced two patterns of 1894 semiauto pistol, although neither would prove successful enough to see substantial production.
I have the great opportunity today to bring you both an 1891 ring-trigger Laumann as well as examples of both the first and second pattern 1894 Schonberger-Laumann semiautos!
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7:49
He may not have gotten the credit for first semi-auto pistol, but at least he can say he made the smallest semi-auto rifle!
I feel like this would be a very interesting Star Wars blaster
Funny you say that since the "Mandalorians" blaster is a modified Bergman semi auto pistol.
I would not be surprised to see some of these early automatics (that haven’t already been used, like the Mauser C96, or the Bergman No.1 used by The Mandalorian) appear in later Star Wars productions.
gungho1345 it’s luckily a replica according to the prop master. I’m glad they didn’t destroy a real one.
Klade Wilson it’s a good prop, amazing design, the rifle however don’t know wtf it is, I’ll ask later
Nah, they're not that ineffective.
*man kills himself*
Ian: “woops I guess”
At first I tried not to laugh but then I thought: Someone is designing a GUN for military usage, so clearly for killing humans, and when no one wants it to kill humans with, he kills himself. Sounds a bit like opposite day to me, but seems normal. Mikhail Kalashnikov, yes, the one who designed the AK 47, lived happily to see the beginning of this millenium.
This has to be inadvertently the funniest thing Ian has said. I’m fucking crying over here 😂
But did he use one of his own pistols? If not, he missed his shot at demonstrating the design’s efficacy…
The early semiauto pistols are so interesting.
To see all theese different engineers take on the same idea is fascinating
Thank you to the Fireplace Collector for allowing us to see some more awesome guns in his collection!
It looks like a funky Bergmann
The book "Textbook of Automatic Pistols" by R. K. Wilson, published in 1935, had this to say about the Schonberger pistol (pages 54-55):
"It was evidently not a commercial success. It is a little difficult to
see quite why this should have been so, as it is exceedingly well
designed and beautifully made. Possibly the ammunition was too
violent. It has been a great difficulty to design a self-loading
pistol which will stand up to powerful ammunition, and the Steyr
people seem to have been unfortunate in choosing a powerful car-
tridge of this type when experience was lacking in self-loading pistol
design.
The cartridge appears from a chamber cast to have been about
25mm. long, and bottlenecked. The bullet weight was in the neigh-
bourhood of 110 grs., and one imagines the muzzle velocity must
have been high, probably at least 1500 f.s. This ammunition has, as
far as I know, never been used in any other weapon."
Gun maker takes his own life
Ian: _Oops_
very funky looking pistols!
spef My man how's it goin?
spef are you ever not here
These pistols and the Salvator - Dormus 1891 should be included on the new "Early Semi auto Pistol Designs" playlist.
Interesting that designs for Semi Automatic *rifles* came before pistols ( see the 1888 Madsen, and flapper locking design patents ).
I have always had a secret love for the magazine forward automatics. One of the first .22LR pistols I ever purchased was one of the take down survival pistols, huge for the little cartridge but it was neat because of the magazine in front of the trigger, and a small compartment in the grip where you could store a second mag. I don't recall the name of the gun but it was a lot of fun, very unbalanced but long enough to make for very accurate shooting. Other mag forwards I have owned includes three bolo Mauser pistols from China, purchased from Shotgun news all found in a barn under the cow shit from the way they looked. I did manage to make one fire-able out of the three, although the rifling was so bad as to be almost unrecognizable. I didn't have the guts to fire it, but it went within seconds of opening my table at a gun show, I sold her cheap and as parts or repair only, the fellow who purchased it returned to my table that same day and showed me a full box of Russian 7.63 ammo he was intending to feed her. I told him that I would never shoot it but he was determined. I never did find out how his shooting went. The other two went that same day as well, both were incomplete, however I had taken them all down, polished them and ran them through my bluing tanks before selling, so they did look almost like guns. At any rate, thanks for the wonderful videos, I still have my love for the mag forward guns, although I no longer own one, all I have left of my once extensive collection is an old Astra A100 in .45ACP that I actually carried for nearly 10 years on the PD, and qualified with twice a year, and my little Citadel .45ACP M1911A1 in the "shorty" General Officers size that I carry when I am traveling and want a conceal carry arm. I have had my CC permit for several years, and only have to lock the little gun up when I near the California Border, God how I hate California law but there are some wonderful National Parks in that State that I still wish to tour before I leave the big blue marble for ever, and at 66 years, I don't know how many more years I can keep up my nomadic life in our '03 motor home. Hopefully a few more anyhow, hell the rig won't be paid for till I am in my late 70's!
I suspect you had an AR7 variant.
You are right! Now that you mention it, yes that's what it was. It was huge for a .22LR, of course over the years I went on to own many, some of which I wish I had never parted with, I think my overall favorite was an old High Standard Duramatic, best shooting pistol and most comfortable fitting my hand next to the old Luger that I had for about six months. Now that was a Pistol I wish I had stowed away in a drawer instead of trading it off on a S&W Chief's Special and an Engfield 30-06 full sporter with a very UGLY stock.
Paragraph?
Sorry, I stopped writing professionally in 2000, sort of forgot how that stuff goes.
I think we all know the reason you never heard back from that guy. Cases like that remind me why research is important. Cool story by the way.
The ring trigger one lóoks like something you'd see as a prop for an alien gun in an old movie
yeah add some big plastic rings around the barrel, & it would look like a classic Sci-Fi movie gun.
I have probably seen over 100 of your videoes, and you are so relaxing and interesting to listen to. Keep the good work up
Does anyone else really like the unique design of the laumann on the right?
Nice freakish-steampunkish design, a modern machinist's nightmare. But Ian, how could you get THREE of those unique pieces together to show them to us?
As a maths junkie I usually I love how things work. This is really neato.
Um...a goof at 7:49 seconds. "semi-auto rifle" :)
Technically, that is not inaccurate?
Gun Jesus does not “goof”. From now on, these are automatic rifles . . .
I have a blanket made from the same cloth as the one covering the table.
Beautiful looking pistols.
Yes been waiting for this Gun for loong
Hah, when Ian presented the Salvator-Dormus pistol I was thinking, wasn't there a competition between them and Schönberger-Laumann for who made the first real automatic pistol? Et voila here comes the second.
Schonberger-Laumann
SchonBERGer
Lau....MANN
conspiracy, I say!
silshasubando ... BERGMANNS!
silshasubando He can't keep getting away with it!
with all respect though, I'm okay if maybe someday Ian decides to upload another Bergmann; like, most youtube channels we'd like to see regularly are just not uploading as prolific and as punctual as ForgottenWeapons, so those Bergmanns would be done sooner or later anyway.
it's a Forgotten Bergmann so forgotten it has a diferent name
the appearance of it reminds me of the early bergmann pistols, any relation between them? maybe they worked near one another?
I think its from the mannlicher feeding system.
These guns look cool if nothing else Ian. The guns have some pretty fancy contours to them that's for sure.
anyone else get a strange Judge Dread comic book version "LawGiver" kind of vibe from that ring triggered one?
Looks like they were on the right path with the second model of the 1894, seems like with further development could been a good handgun.
imagine a lever action henry or winnie with a ring trigger instead of a lever. You could overcome the high force and worse leverage by just GETTING A STRONGER TRIGGER FINGER.
Dudes who shot them a lot would have one bulgy muscle on their right forearms and probably crippling arthritis later in life.
His wife would be very happy though
I want that second pattern, it's just so cool
I love them that's some cool guns and a ton of history with it.
Heck I need to get a gun permit. These look oddly amazing.
With all those organic curves, the machine time must have been exorbitant. But that safety is so much better than that of later guns like the Steyr-Mannlicher.
These are supremely cool weapons. The manual repeater looks like something from another planet, it has a baroque, almost organic look to it, and would have been right at home in the Kingdom of Siam. I'm sure the system would have worked with black powder, maybe if the inventor had come up with it a bit earlier it would have been a great success. The self-loading models are pretty cool too with that rocking handle, let's remember this was the Maxim gun era and this feature was novel and trendy. It's so sad the inventor chose to kill himself, I guess some people have really thin skin. But between any of these and the Borchardt, I would have chosen the Borchardt.
I wonder if the only person ever killed with a Laumann was Laumann
Nice look at a unique gun!
Is there a big crack in the bottom of the mag spring section on the 1st pistol?
I just want to see what the cartridge and clips would've looked like?
I FLACKING LOVE THESE WEIRD OLD PISTOLS! AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!
The manual action version has so many weird curves to it, very organic looking, it's kinda unsettling. I want one, very Bloodborne with a bit more embellishment
4:47 new notification sound.
check your video, the second model doesn't have an auto lock when empty, the tip of the charging lever is engaging the safety, as the level has a holding indent in the frame it doesn't move when gun is fired.
When actually firing does the charging handle reciprocate or stay at rest?
Those are definitely some unique looking weapons. One question, why is the rear sight offset to the right?
Very steampunk look to those pistols.
@6:57 I suppose there is no hope of finding a handicapped friendly version for our host.
At first, I thought this was about Bergmanns... :P
oh lord that "oops I guess"
I want one of the manual ones to play with.
This isn't even that terrible a design; it feels like it was maybe three or four more iterations away from at least some success. (A good "ideas guy" could've really turned things around, just like Luger did.)
interesting you can see where some of its design could have atleast helped or inspired on some other early designs.
I may have missed it, but what is the locking method (if any)? It seems a fair deal of machine time must have been dedicated to those swoopy lines. It looks great, but I imagine this drove the cost up.
None - just blowback.
Thanks, Ian.
Shouldn't the "first" automatic pistol be the first one that was made available for sale? Patents don't necessarily imply functionality.
Does the cocking lever move when the pistol is fired?
Yes, it goes forward.
Interesting. Is the mass of the lever going forward while off axis large enough to affect accuracy or how you'd need to hold the gun while shooting?
I wonder if he killed himself using his own gun? Cos thats some god damn irony if so
Ian, is it too much to hope that Mr red tablecloth has a brother that collects early breechloading RIFLES with the same zeal?
If scissors and a gun had a bayby together.
is there any companies that make reproduction early automatic pistols?
Dude said oops 😅😂
I wonder if my family is related to the Schonberger brothers?
Why aren't there modern pistols that are innovative like this? They all follow the same pattern.
Sky Flier Because it's what works and sells. Innovation is costly. developing the item and putting it out on the market and having the potential for it to be a commercial flop is scary to big companies trying to make money. This is in any industry. People are too piss scared to take a step out of the perverbial box.
No gloves for these super rare pieces, from a private collection?
I've heard Ian address this in a QnA- he says at auction house, the guns come and go and staff cannot be bothered. Owner can clean them. In this case? IDK
That decision is up to the gun’s owner. He didn’t care for gloves.
4:47 I guess...
Laumann: 𝕭𝖚𝖎𝖑𝖉𝖘 𝖔𝖓𝖊 𝖔𝖋 𝖙𝖍𝖊 𝖋𝖎𝖗𝖘𝖙 𝖆𝖚𝖙𝖔𝖒𝖆𝖙𝖎𝖈 𝖕𝖎𝖘𝖙𝖔𝖑𝖘
Austrian Government: "Can you make it better?"
Laumann: "Man, *fuck you guys* "
It's actually Schönberger :)
You Finns....
Лучше учи русский!:D
Polish and Swedish are too.
Do/did you actually have Swedish in school?
Das Umlaut monster will fress you.
Nice to have some older guns on here. One has no idea how bizzar one looks watching these at a local college coffee shop
I will not watch a video that starts with a ad.
It is not a bad design for the time. It is a shame he did not keep trying. He might had built something interesting.
does anyone know what these pistols are worth?
This looks like a Pink Floyds' Syd Barret set of guns.
Lever action pistol?
J332-8
that's a striker fire technically right???
As someone trying to bring a new sort of firearm into the world it’s nice to hear about the others that have tried before me, even if “so whoops i guess.” was how they ended 😅 i have the advantage that you’ve all seen my “gun” but believe it to be impossible/fantasy so I don’t have to complete with other investors... i mean who in their right mind would make a lightsaber gun using an aerospike for a barrel, even nasa gave up on that nonsense 🤣😆😀 but ya it’s coming
Why do these early automatics keep having such poor capacity? I can't imagine any army deciding that an 5 round pistol firing a round weak enough for blowback is better than something like a S&W model 3. Especially when they are both similar size.
Why do you think these guns have become forgotten? It wasnt until another 10 years after these guns were made before people started taking semi auto guns seriously once the technology got better.
Laumann Agents you say? Hmm
I wonder if laumann killed himself with one of his Semi autos or if he did so with a different thing.
I may assure you, that he did not committ suicide! As he was my greatgrandfather I know about! He somehow made the breakthrough by inventing a system which is using the energy of the repulsion for the loading of the next shot. (As I am an Austrian I am not so good to express this in right English! ;-) ) ... If anybody is interested - I have all the patents with drawing and description (in German) in copy, just let me know!
1
Very steampunk.
Welcome back to forgottenlaumanns.com...
Chung Lii Ah, a fellow survivor of the Bergmann deluge.
Looks like a bolt action pistol
I'm guessing there's more to the story - i.e. clinical depression. Australia still builds some of the most sought-after arms today.
Australia??
I feel like these could have been moderately successful if he would have kept developing them.
You know that look you have on your face when you see a girl so hot you can't even understand how its possible for a girl to be that hot? I had that look on my face the entire video. I can't believe people didn't buy these.
Shouldve done all of these separately.
In what way was a manual pistol better then a Dualaction revolver or even a singelaction revolver.
Smaller width, no timing issues, faster to reload, in some cases the capacity was higher (not too many, I know).
Maybe even more important: It was the late 1800s, nothing seemed impossible to try out at least, anything new and modern was fancy.
Not that everything new also was practical, though.
Did Laumann shot himself with one of his not accepted guns?
I may assure you, that he did not committ suicide! As he was my greatgrandfather I know about! He somehow made the breakthrough by inventing a system which is using the energy of the repulsion for the loading of the next shot. (As I am an Austrian I am not so good to express this in right English! ;-) ) ... If anybody is interested - I have all the patents with drawing and description (in German) in copy, just let me know!
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Christian schleicher
vor 7 Monaten
I may assure you, that he did not committ suicide! As he was my greatgrandfather I know about! He somehow made the breakthrough by inventing a system which is using the energy of the repulsion for the loading of the next shot. (As I am an Austrian I am not so good to express this in right English! ;-) ) ... If anybody is interested - I have all the patents with drawing and description (in German) in copy, just let me know!
Austrias national flag was not red-white-red at the time the gun was invented.
These are odd looking and in some cases awkward fire arms but they were innovative. Where is that innovation today? It seems like today's firearms industry is resting on it's laurals producing copy after copy of the same designs that has been in use for the last 30 years. Is there anyone out there trying anything new?
Only in small quantities. New innovation is expensive and even proven systems that have any added cost can't compete against the already proven systems ( Colt 1911, Hi Power, Glock, etc. )
See the story on the gun by Hudson.
It looks a bit like a c96
"You army people are full of shit! What do you mean, 'it doesn't work'? Here, I'll show you. Accept _THIS_ then!"
- Laumann, around 1895
oops
but did he kill himself with one of the pistols?... lol
These look like ai were trying to make a gun
reproductions?
Nope.
Forgotten Weapons shame
A full size 22lr or 32acp reproduction would be slick.
That is only one dislike.
1 dislike
Josef Laumann's ghost didn't appreciate being told to grow thicker skin.
Bittner Automatic.
Semi-auto ... Rifle...???
He was more likely looking for an excuse not to kill hinself rather than the other way around.
One dislike...
¯\_(ツ)_/¯ lol
Why did they even bother making all these weak caliber 4 - 7 round pistols, when most revolvers could do the same or better. Is there any benefit over a revolver of that era?
A faster reload, primarily. I don't think revolver speed-loaders had really hit the scene until the next century.