I’ve been building guitars, mandolins, etc. for over forty years and would like to try a bowl back lute. Could you recommend a set of plans for constructing a lute. Thanks for the videos.
The Luthiers Guild of America, Lute Societies of both England, and the USA; instrument museums in Germany, Belgium, France, England. Italy; all of these have plans for instruments in their collections. One warning: the American luthier Bob Lundberg commented, "if you build exact copies of old instruments, you will surely be disappointed". He's talking mainly about our understanding of what instruments were expected to do in which music, compared to our modern understanding. Of the instruments I built, most were from various plans, but you will have to adapt them to modern hands (wider spacing for the fingers) higher pitch or lower (depending on countries and the other instruments made there), the number of courses (specific music calls for certain tunings, numbers of basses and various expectation involving the use of octave strings. If you wanted to build a lute for Dowland, for example, do you heed his advice that "octaves are contrary to the laws of music"? Most modern players use overspun strings with octaves, not plain gut or roped gut--too expensive and very hard to keep in tune, though wonderful under the right circumstances. Look for what most musicians are playing to identify the best models, find a plan for those, follow advice about making the instrument ergonomic and suited to its stringing. thanks for your question, C
As I listen to your explanations and your vocabulary, it is clear that your day job is in a scientific field like, doctor, engineer, architect, or some such thing. Lute building doesn’t put a roof over your head. So which one on my list are you?
Hi Frank, I have worked as a professional lutenist and luthier for my entire career, and I feel privileged to be able to say that. Certainly I've had as much training as these other professions, just in a different field. The income is much smaller too, ha ha. Thanks for your comment!
It's too risky. Better to have lots of wiggle room! I used to use templates but I found them to be unwieldy. This is the best method I have found. Thanks for your question!
Great, my baroque lute has the soundboard a little bit lifted after the bridge like a belly and before the bridge is a little bit sunk, Must I change the soundboard or repair it? It's a Doré Lute
It’s hard to tell from your description, but let me comment that it is perfectly normal to see a deflection of the soundboard, downwards in front (toward the rose) and upwards behind (in front of the rim or capping strip). Luthiers refer to this movement as “potato chip(ing)”. It describes the stress that the soundboard is deflecting because of the string tension, and it’s not only perfectly normal, but good. A flat soundboard is one that is too thick, and results in a lute with an unfocussed, leaden sound, one that is low in upper partials, lacks the ping that we like, and we find the instrument unresponsive to hand movements, changes of colour, changes to the plucking point and so on. This is common on kit lutes or lutes where the soundboard has not been thinned like that on a historical instrument. Lutes from the nineteen fifties and sixties, even later were often built far too stiffly, for example, and had a flat, dead sound. However, you may also be referring to the glue joint lifting from the rim of the lute body. This must be repaired with new glue. If you can’t get to a competent luthier soon, then use some drafting tape (less sticky than masking tape, which is messy, and may damage the grain of the top) to tape the opening closed until you can get it fixed properly. I hope I have interpreted your statements correctly, if not, let me know…best, Clive
Hi, thanks very much for the info. I like to watch instrument build videos on TH-cam. For instruments with bowl shaped body (lute, oud, etc), nearly everyone uses traditional methods. First cuts the ribs to a rectangle shape then bends by iron and then gives them final shape with a plane or saw according to a template. Would it be possible and easy to cut ribs precisely with a lazer cutting machine then bend and glue each other? May it be easy!
Hi Cem Agan, and thanks for your question. Lots of observers have noticed that lute making seems primitive and we should be be able to find more precise methods. Some lute makers have tried making templates from alumimum, for example which allow each rib to be planed and bent, then cut exactly while clamped on one side, then glued to a master mold. Some suggested a three-d printing approach, either for the bowl or for the the mold, or for the ribs. What about making templates from metal or some more permanent material? These suggestions are based on a philosophy of producing lute bodies quickly for a larger market, a bigger audience. The thing which prevents the lute from being a mass-market object is not the economics of construction. Lutes were made to play music of a certain people at a certain time, and then we moved on. We don't see musical instruments and their music and the public as historical, passing things, but indeed they are. The lute is a lovely thing, but it won't ever be a numerous thing, we know that from history. For that, look to the guitar or others of that spirit.
@@EarlyMusicStudio1 Hi, thanks for sharing your and some other luthiers' experiences. Unfortunately due to popular consumption culture we are loosing our colors and richness inherited from history. :( Especially the young are mostly interested in popular instruments like electric/acoustic guitar, piano, synthesizer or some electric bowed instruments. Yes maybe faster and larger production is not the case for lute. But any human being doing same task again and again looks for an easy, neat and more precise method in the background of his brain :) I live in Turkey. You know, Eurasia. Here there are a number of instruments with bowl shaped back. I've seen that luthiers of these ethnic, folk instruments use traditional methods as well. I'm not a luthier, I have some woodworking experience and I want to start making some instruments as a hobby. I love the unique shape and sound of folk musical instruments, watch and read about building them. For a solution for bowl back instruments (comprised of ribs and stripes) I've an opinion: I think you know classical or acoustic guitar building process. Luthiers use acrylic, mdf or plywood templates and a router to precisely shave some parts (like neck, fretboard, body top and bottom) Also some of them bend body sides on a wooden mold with the help of a silicone heater pad and a steel sheet. I think same approach can be applied to bowl body shape instruments. First, if one has unwrapped (2d) templates of ribs, he can cut the rectangle shape rib wood to a precise rib shape. Then he can bend each rib with a proper sized silicone heater pad and a steel sheet on the mold. Also silicone heater pad can be laid on the mold (on the slice of mold where the wood will be bent) then luthier can slowly bend the rib on it. After bend operation, the rib is fixed and luthier proceed to stripes and other ribs. Both Touching and feeling wood and working on art are relaxing and fulfilling tasks. I wish you nice and happy days in your workshop ;)
@@cemagan9071 Hello and thanks for your very interesting and extensive reply! It always amazes me how many ways there may be to do any given job, and you have thought of a new one. Yes, templates are very helpful, but the final fitting must be done by hand. Wood is not a completely predictable material, and even though we may cut and bend quite exactly, there may always be some small amount too much or not enough. In metal working very fine tolerance is possible, but in wood, it's not always quite so simple . I can make the tape template, apply it to my flat blank, and bend it, then I cut and fit. Then I do the outside joint, then I glue it on. Twenty or thirty minutes. If you have a metal or wood template, use a blanket and heater and so on, I am almost certain it will take longer. Please let me know how this works for you. I understand from a colleague who went to countries where oud and folk lutes were made to observe the methods, that many of them used very primitive methods of marking--chalk, pencil etc. to get the rough shape, from the mold, then all the final work is done just with a large flat chisel! It's quick, but requires great skill. The fitting is all done with part of the rib already glued! Tried to do that, but could not make it work. There's definitely a trick that I don't know! One more thing: the amount of heat needed to bend a lute rib is much less that what is need to bend a whole guitar side to a mold. Be careful not to overheat where it's not necessary. Yew wood needs very little heat, maple also. Rosewood must be heated a lot, then there is much springback. It can be very unpredictable also according to grain direction. I have always used just a hot pipe, propane, a couple of small irons used for upholtery. Very simple. Most wood bends very easily. Don't wet it. One of my admired masters said " you don't bend the wood, you allow it to bend". Best, Clive
@@EarlyMusicStudio1 Hi Clive, Thank you for the tips about bending rib woods. I think to achieve precision, mold must be constructed on cnc (it doesn't need to be solid, it can be constructed with laser cut frames of plywood), according to a custom designed or historical 3d shape of which we know the exact measurements for each component(ribs and strips). Then ribs can be trimmed according to 2d templates belong to that 3d shape. We can bend and place each rib and strip where it should be on that mold. Also I saw that luthiers pin ribs on mold. As a better alternative, for bending ribs to their exact shape and fixing them on mold we can cast hard resin in the shape of each rib. I have a design on my mind but first I must model a simple 3d lute model with specified specs (rib count, body depth etc.) I used some 3d modelling software to create 3d designs sometime but recently I've discovered a cad program "fusion 360". You can design a complete musical instrument in 3d with your given measurements. Also you can cut some part on cnc according to your design. If I managed to design a prototype for a lighter and flexible mold with more precise cutting, bending and fixing system I'm gonna share it with you, maybe you have some suggestions about it. It would be easy to talk on pictures. Best wishes, See you...
@@EarlyMusicStudio1 thanks for your great work. I think can be excellent Oud maker. Lute and Oud making is almost identical. Lets try to make one, i have a good understanding of woods used in lutes and Ouds making and Sizes too. Have a look at this one, you will understand my idea. th-cam.com/video/o2lp5NvJTIM/w-d-xo.html
It's a matter of skill, that is for sure. Essentially you are matching in three dimensions, the flat, the length and the next rib's curved plane. Eventually you develop a feel for the work, and after all, the joint in most cases is a straight line (though curved in space). Even so, woods behave differently when bending, sometimes the wood flares up or down, and you control with with tape, counter bending or with the tacks. Once skill is developed with the planes, and the set up has stations for the various operations around the bench (the mould, the sanding board, planes in the vise upside-down, bending iron kept on low flame, tape, glue, tacks, a board for applying glue to the spacers, the work proceed smoothly. I usually count on 20 minutes to go from thicknessed ("thinned") blank to attached rib tacked and taped on unless there are special problems with wood, sharpening, or it's first or last rib. Multi-rib lutes or flattened lutes are more work, as the joint is often not straight, but curves at either end of the body. This is done by carefull hand fitting and a very sharp, finely set plane upside down in the vise. Easy when you know how, as the saying goes! Thanks for your question, Clive
I don’t want to work at being a craftsman. I want computer controlled laser cutters to cut my parts, and computer controlled robots to assemble them. Then I’d use AI to market them to people on YT interested in lutes. My lutes would be so much accurate and better than ones made by old guts muddling along years ago. When you look closely at those old lutes it looks like necks are crooked, and stuff isn’t on center. 😂
This is not the first time that someone suggests that a complex wooden object could be produced using CNC machinery, lasers, sensors, 3D printers, etc. But there's a basic problem with this idea, and it's this: Wood moves. As soon as it's heated up, cut, planed, sanded, sawn, scraped or subjected to any sort of cutting or friction, it shrinks, bends and deforms in every dimension. These smart machines are better suited to materials for which they are designed, and which allow for tolerances of less than 1/1000th of a millimetre. Wood is not such a material unless it is fundamentally altered by the use of PEG, for example. I'm afraid you will have to commit yourself to doing it the old-fashioned way; use skill.
@@EarlyMusicStudio1 - a very accurate and balanced reply. I'm a software engineer and part time Lute maker. The problem with CNC is the random variation in the workpieces. So you could CAD the plans and CNC cut all the parts, but it ain't gonna fit together without a craftsperson involved :) :)
I’ve been building guitars, mandolins, etc. for over forty years and would like to try a bowl back lute. Could you recommend a set of plans for constructing a lute. Thanks for the videos.
The Luthiers Guild of America, Lute Societies of both England, and the USA; instrument museums in Germany, Belgium, France, England. Italy; all of these have plans for instruments in their collections.
One warning: the American luthier Bob Lundberg commented, "if you build exact copies of old instruments, you will surely be disappointed". He's talking mainly about our understanding of what instruments were expected to do in which music, compared to our modern understanding.
Of the instruments I built, most were from various plans, but you will have to adapt them to modern hands (wider spacing for the fingers) higher pitch or lower (depending on countries and the other instruments made there), the number of courses (specific music calls for certain tunings, numbers of basses and various expectation involving the use of octave strings. If you wanted to build a lute for Dowland, for example, do you heed his advice that "octaves are contrary to the laws of music"?
Most modern players use overspun strings with octaves, not plain gut or roped gut--too expensive and very hard to keep in tune, though wonderful under the right circumstances.
Look for what most musicians are playing to identify the best models, find a plan for those, follow advice about making the instrument ergonomic and suited to its stringing. thanks for your question, C
As I listen to your explanations and your vocabulary, it is clear that your day job is in a scientific field like, doctor, engineer, architect, or some such thing. Lute building doesn’t put a roof over your head. So which one on my list are you?
Hi Frank, I have worked as a professional lutenist and luthier for my entire career, and I feel privileged to be able to say that. Certainly I've had as much training as these other professions, just in a different field. The income is much smaller too, ha ha. Thanks for your comment!
Thanks very much for the video and insightful explanations. Great stuff and very helpful, especially for us beginners :)
Glad that you got some useful information from that. C
Q: Why not cut the rib outline closer to its true size ?
It's too risky. Better to have lots of wiggle room! I used to use templates but I found them to be unwieldy. This is the best method I have found. Thanks for your question!
Great, my baroque lute has the soundboard a little bit lifted after the bridge like a belly and before the bridge is a little bit sunk, Must I change the soundboard or repair it? It's a Doré Lute
It’s hard to tell from your description, but let me comment that it is perfectly normal to see a deflection of the soundboard, downwards in front (toward the rose) and upwards behind (in front of the rim or capping strip). Luthiers refer to this movement as “potato chip(ing)”. It describes the stress that the soundboard is deflecting because of the string tension, and it’s not only perfectly normal, but good. A flat soundboard is one that is too thick, and results in a lute with an unfocussed, leaden sound, one that is low in upper partials, lacks the ping that we like, and we find the instrument unresponsive to hand movements, changes of colour, changes to the plucking point and so on. This is common on kit lutes or lutes where the soundboard has not been thinned like that on a historical instrument. Lutes from the nineteen fifties and sixties, even later were often built far too stiffly, for example, and had a flat, dead sound.
However, you may also be referring to the glue joint lifting from the rim of the lute body. This must be repaired with new glue. If you can’t get to a competent luthier soon, then use some drafting tape (less sticky than masking tape, which is messy, and may damage the grain of the top) to tape the opening closed until you can get it fixed properly.
I hope I have interpreted your statements correctly, if not, let me know…best, Clive
@EarlyMusicStudio1 thank you a lot.
wonderful job.
Thanks very much!
How do you make the ‘form’ for the bowl?
You will find among the videos on my channel a video on this subject: th-cam.com/video/-5eJWnCFic8/w-d-xo.html Thanks for your question, C
It`s like working out the shortest route around the planet for a jet pilot .
Planet of the lutes!
Hi, thanks very much for the info.
I like to watch instrument build videos on TH-cam. For instruments with bowl shaped body (lute, oud, etc), nearly everyone uses traditional methods. First cuts the ribs to a rectangle shape then bends by iron and then gives them final shape with a plane or saw according to a template.
Would it be possible and easy to cut ribs precisely with a lazer cutting machine then bend and glue each other?
May it be easy!
Hi Cem Agan, and thanks for your question. Lots of observers have noticed that lute making seems primitive and we should be be able to find more precise methods. Some lute makers have tried making templates from alumimum, for example which allow each rib to be planed and bent, then cut exactly while clamped on one side, then glued to a master mold.
Some suggested a three-d printing approach, either for the bowl or for the the mold, or for the ribs. What about making templates from metal or some more permanent material?
These suggestions are based on a philosophy of producing lute bodies quickly for a larger market, a bigger audience. The thing which prevents the lute from being a mass-market object is not the economics of construction.
Lutes were made to play music of a certain people at a certain time, and then we moved on. We don't see musical instruments and their music and the public as historical, passing things, but indeed they are.
The lute is a lovely thing, but it won't ever be a numerous thing, we know that from history. For that, look to the guitar or others of that spirit.
@@EarlyMusicStudio1 Hi, thanks for sharing your and some other luthiers' experiences.
Unfortunately due to popular consumption culture we are loosing our colors and richness inherited from history. :( Especially the young are mostly interested in popular instruments like electric/acoustic guitar, piano, synthesizer or some electric bowed instruments.
Yes maybe faster and larger production is not the case for lute. But any human being doing same task again and again looks for an easy, neat and more precise method in the background of his brain :)
I live in Turkey. You know, Eurasia. Here there are a number of instruments with bowl shaped back. I've seen that luthiers of these ethnic, folk instruments use traditional methods as well.
I'm not a luthier, I have some woodworking experience and I want to start making some instruments as a hobby. I love the unique shape and sound of folk musical instruments, watch and read about building them.
For a solution for bowl back instruments (comprised of ribs and stripes) I've an opinion:
I think you know classical or acoustic guitar building process. Luthiers use acrylic, mdf or plywood templates and a router to precisely shave some parts (like neck, fretboard, body top and bottom) Also some of them bend body sides on a wooden mold with the help of a silicone heater pad and a steel sheet.
I think same approach can be applied to bowl body shape instruments. First, if one has unwrapped (2d) templates of ribs, he can cut the rectangle shape rib wood to a precise rib shape. Then he can bend each rib with a proper sized silicone heater pad and a steel sheet on the mold. Also silicone heater pad can be laid on the mold (on the slice of mold where the wood will be bent) then luthier can slowly bend the rib on it. After bend operation, the rib is fixed and luthier proceed to stripes and other ribs.
Both Touching and feeling wood and working on art are relaxing and fulfilling tasks. I wish you nice and happy days in your workshop ;)
@@cemagan9071 Hello and thanks for your very interesting and extensive reply! It always amazes me how many ways there may be to do any given job, and you have thought of a new one. Yes, templates are very helpful, but the final fitting must be done by hand. Wood is not a completely predictable material, and even though we may cut and bend quite exactly, there may always be some small amount too much or not enough. In metal working very fine tolerance is possible, but in wood, it's not always quite so simple . I can make the tape template, apply it to my flat blank, and bend it, then I cut and fit. Then I do the outside joint, then I glue it on. Twenty or thirty minutes. If you have a metal or wood template, use a blanket and heater and so on, I am almost certain it will take longer.
Please let me know how this works for you.
I understand from a colleague who went to countries where oud and folk lutes were made to observe the methods, that many of them used very primitive methods of marking--chalk, pencil etc. to get the rough shape, from the mold, then all the final work is done just with a large flat chisel! It's quick, but requires great skill. The fitting is all done with part of the rib already glued! Tried to do that, but could not make it work. There's definitely a trick that I don't know!
One more thing: the amount of heat needed to bend a lute rib is much less that what is need to bend a whole guitar side to a mold. Be careful not to overheat where it's not necessary. Yew wood needs very little heat, maple also. Rosewood must be heated a lot, then there is much springback. It can be very unpredictable also according to grain direction. I have always used just a hot pipe, propane, a couple of small irons used for upholtery. Very simple. Most wood bends very easily. Don't wet it. One of my admired masters said " you don't bend the wood, you allow it to bend".
Best, Clive
@@EarlyMusicStudio1
Hi Clive,
Thank you for the tips about bending rib woods.
I think to achieve precision, mold must be constructed on cnc (it doesn't need to be solid, it can be constructed with laser cut frames of plywood), according to a custom designed or historical 3d shape of which we know the exact measurements for each component(ribs and strips). Then ribs can be trimmed according to 2d templates belong to that 3d shape. We can bend and place each rib and strip where it should be on that mold. Also I saw that luthiers pin ribs on mold. As a better alternative, for bending ribs to their exact shape and fixing them on mold we can cast hard resin in the shape of each rib.
I have a design on my mind but first I must model a simple 3d lute model with specified specs (rib count, body depth etc.) I used some 3d modelling software to create 3d designs sometime but recently I've discovered a cad program "fusion 360". You can design a complete musical instrument in 3d with your given measurements. Also you can cut some part on cnc according to your design.
If I managed to design a prototype for a lighter and flexible mold with more precise cutting, bending and fixing system I'm gonna share it with you, maybe you have some suggestions about it. It would be easy to talk on pictures.
Best wishes,
See you...
wow, interesting. have you ever made an OUD?
I've made many different lutes and early guitars, a spinet, instrument cases, bookcases and cutting boards, but never an oud :) Thanks for watching!
@@EarlyMusicStudio1 thanks for your great work.
I think can be excellent Oud maker. Lute and Oud making is almost identical.
Lets try to make one, i have a good understanding of woods used in lutes and Ouds making and Sizes too.
Have a look at this one, you will understand my idea.
th-cam.com/video/o2lp5NvJTIM/w-d-xo.html
wow.. bit lost about how to match ribs together.. seems impossible task
It's a matter of skill, that is for sure. Essentially you are matching in three dimensions, the flat, the length and the next rib's curved plane. Eventually you develop a feel for the work, and after all, the joint in most cases is a straight line (though curved in space).
Even so, woods behave differently when bending, sometimes the wood flares up or down, and you control with with tape, counter bending or with the tacks. Once skill is developed with the planes, and the set up has stations for the various operations around the bench (the mould, the sanding board, planes in the vise upside-down, bending iron kept on low flame, tape, glue, tacks, a board for applying glue to the spacers, the work proceed smoothly.
I usually count on 20 minutes to go from thicknessed ("thinned") blank to attached rib tacked and taped on unless there are special problems with wood, sharpening, or it's first or last rib. Multi-rib lutes or flattened lutes are more work, as the joint is often not straight, but curves at either end of the body. This is done by carefull hand fitting and a very sharp, finely set plane upside down in the vise.
Easy when you know how, as the saying goes! Thanks for your question, Clive
How to make the ribs shape...could you show it
Thanks for your comment. You find that here:
th-cam.com/video/aOKTX1hoyso/w-d-xo.html
best wishes, clive
@@EarlyMusicStudio1 yeah mate...welcome..
@@EarlyMusicStudio1 ;;
You mean the white dividers? You probably buy those.
Nope, made on a table saw, then thinned slightly with a cabinet scaper.@@thunderball11111
ماهورأيك ونظرتك للعودالعراقي🇮🇶🌹⚘
I don’t want to work at being a craftsman. I want computer controlled laser cutters to cut my parts, and computer controlled robots to assemble them. Then I’d use AI to market them to people on YT interested in lutes. My lutes would be so much accurate and better than ones made by old guts muddling along years ago. When you look closely at those old lutes it looks like necks are crooked, and stuff isn’t on center. 😂
This is not the first time that someone suggests that a complex wooden object could be produced using CNC machinery, lasers, sensors, 3D printers, etc. But there's a basic problem with this idea, and it's this: Wood moves. As soon as it's heated up, cut, planed, sanded, sawn, scraped or subjected to any sort of cutting or friction, it shrinks, bends and deforms in every dimension. These smart machines are better suited to materials for which they are designed, and which allow for tolerances of less than 1/1000th of a millimetre. Wood is not such a material unless it is fundamentally altered by the use of PEG, for example. I'm afraid you will have to commit yourself to doing it the old-fashioned way; use skill.
@@EarlyMusicStudio1 - a very accurate and balanced reply. I'm a software engineer and part time Lute maker. The problem with CNC is the random variation in the workpieces. So you could CAD the plans and CNC cut all the parts, but it ain't gonna fit together without a craftsperson involved :) :)
to much talk
Thats' the point of a Yootoob video: instruction.