I played Lili once saw c.HP and laughed cause that's all I decided to use. You can probably hit high diamond with that button alone if you want. Insane how good it is.
can confirm yesterday i played a dude in diamond 5 and won a round and was close to winning a game just off of grabs, not one button was pressed so crouch hp with lily is defo doable
@@ValChronificationit’s a joke that stems from internet viewers immediately associating their preferred internet personality picking a character they don’t usually pick with “they’ve dropped [old character] completely and are now a full time [new character] player”
I remember a few people coming at me when I said Capcom didn't do a good job addressing Lily's core weakness in the S2 patch and this is what I meant. She's definitely better now but she still has the S1 Honda problem of having most of her strength focused into a very small part of her kit.
Agree but frankly I dont think you need much more than a fireball invincible full screen frame 8 start up 3 hit tackle that's plus on block, a frame 5 command grab that reaches as far as most medium punches, and a god button in neutral. Her problem is she's so straightforward that if you have an answer she cant really adjust her plan and once she hits the ground its a rough time. She would require a complete overhaul to make consistently good. That small part of her kit is very strong. Its a lot harder to consistently perfect parry ex spire than buttslam or headbutt
@@McBibz Whats wrong with her 6HP? Damn thing was made for wish punishes. It has no extended hurtbox until the hitbox comes out and its disgustingly disjointed at that.
@@Luchamasterfit 16:03 Slow (18f) with big recovery (24f). Only active for 2f and whole hurtbox is moving forward so easy to whiff punish. Confirmable but unsafe on block + target combo is terrible (unsafe, bad dmg, bad oki) so you just cancel into enhanced light/od spire no matter what. She doesn't need to "wish punish" with a 18f normal to do that. It looks like it could be a slow but cool AA, it's not. Pretty sure it was at some point. You can't link into it (4HP/6HP DR = +17...). You can juggle into it but you don't because it does less damage than 4HP. So yeah, use it when you're a bit too far after a crumple (but not too far) and maybe for wall splats. And that's it. Or remove it. Make 6HP her overhead instead. Change TC so that it starts with a medium button and can cancel into a ~safe light wind. And see how it goes. Enhanced od spire (9f startup) and mid/heavy headbutts have similar travel speeds. Pretty sure bias is the main reason you think it's harder to parry. People who don't play her should stop asking for a "complete overhaul" because they find her annoying. She's not more "straightforward" than Luke...
You somehow put the perfect amount of matches with the right cuts into this video where it was just perfect. When you got to the finale I couldn't believe the video was ending already. My attention span was perfectly manipulated, thank you Broski
Lily taught me the game without me having to focus on combos and different normals for different situations. Instead it taught me to play neutral and enjoy sf6 with relative ease. My point is, lily doesn't need to be complicated. Putting her power in a few moves makes her easy to pick up.
Same, playing modern lily really helped me understand managing resources. She's one of those characters where as long as you have some form of resource, you can win!
Yeah I agree, I like Lily because she's easy lol if she became really technical and had to kara every special move or something I would probably just quit playing her even if she was stronger
@@polkunus what about the balance? She is fine the way she is now. Imo, a simple character should never be top tier. But she can hang with the cast, which is good.
@@sloesty i dont think designing a competitive game char around her accessibility is a good idea. You can have both and possibly have her “top tier”. She is not fine she’s lacking in specific strengths while dumping it nearly all in one button
As a Lily player, quality of life would be vastly improved by moving overhead to df+MP and wind store to QCB+K. One of the most annoying things about playing her is the input overlap.
I hope you do one of these for Kimberly one day. I’d really love some insights on if she’s as weak as she seems and if there are some ways to play her that haven’t been explored and if she can be made better.
She's definitely not weak, just not as good as day 1 SF6. She's probably a bit better than Lily, good offense/neutral setups, weird supers, meh defense
I find spds incredibly easy on leverless in modern sfs. is basically just a hcf/HCB tiger knee motion. A stand 720 however I can not for the life me do.
Grinded zangief to master this season on leverless, bro SPDs are a drug. I also cannot do a standing 720 though I find they usually aren't useful, 720s as reversals or after drive rush is how I usually used it
I've been using Lily off and on since release on leverless. The slide technique makes 360s incredibly easy and consistent. If you wanna search a vid, 'How to Hit Box - Slides' will be it.
"the middest of mid-tiers" - great line. In all seriousness, I always enjoy your analysis of your "vacation/week of" characters. I would love for you to redo Zangief in season 2 like you had done in season 1 to see the differences and provide further analysis.
Honestly, as a Lily main. I think she’s just misunderstood. I don’t think people realize how much tech exists for her without requiring stocks. She has a few safe jump set up combos that take you to the corner from mid screen, good damage all around and a lot of options if you have a basic concept of spacing. Condor spire is very strong without charges, very easy to space it out to be plus on block with the only risk of eating a dp or parry. Which allows you to then start baiting reversals. People get so absorbed by the idea that she has a “neutral skip” that they don’t realize she’s just really solid in neutral and much better if condor spire is sparingly used in neutral. Condor spire is just good for beating fireballs and depleting your opponents drive gauge and corner carry in combos. Despite Lilys movement speed she has really good corner carry and excels at jailing people in the corner.
I'm considering a few options for the next character to pick up, and I'm kinda at a loss. It feels like there still isn't a character that has necessary "clicked" if that makes any sense. Do you think given the changes made to her since Season 2 started that she is worth learning?
@@odd_cup_of_coffee she’s actually way way better in season 2. Due to her buffs. Her bad match ups are the same but when you land a hit her pressure is stronger and has way more options available. She’s a true vortex grapple now. And the buffs to her mediums made her pressure better and her buttons more threatening.
16:27 It's kinda weird that they buff all the target combos of the characters using charges ( Ryu, Honda,... ) by making them special cancelable into charged move. And then left out Lily, the most charges-depended character of all
16:16 Fr HP from crumple can also combo into M Condor -> lvl 1 from anywhere on the screen. Her lvl 1 has pretty good damage, getting two whiff punishes into those can tear out chunks of health.
I always sacrifice some hp to do m/h version to get 1-2 windstock in the akuma match up, and it helps a lot. Once you get in, they explode in 2 command grab. Lily really hit like a truck.
as a lily main that heavy button command normal comment hit home the amount of times i’ve gotten that stupid jump forward flailing her arms around down forward heavy punch normal just trying to get crouch fierce is crazy
Forward fierce is the only normal that gets lily a guaranteed wall splat in burnout when the opponent has no super. Other normal into DI all lose to gief's 5HP charge and Marisa's stance. You can also frame trap with the 6HP target combo to get a closeup +2 situation. It's pointless to do though😅
Lily foward heavy punch should hit higher i absolutely hate having people jump right thru it as shes literally swinging up it definitely needs faster start up better hit box Lily is also extremely vulnerable to low fowards And i wish they make her overhead a aerial move hate getting grabbed literally in mid air two legs off the ground
So good changes would be - make Condor Spire break armor if it has wind stocks - give her fierce command normals more utility, like St.HP groundbounces on air CH, or back HP launches the opponent much higher vertically for different better kinds of combos - change the wind stock motion to down down or something - maybe take some qualities of Cr.HP and give them to her other HP normals?
Broski still has a lot to learn about Lily which is cool since she's the most basic character in the game by far. His Lily play is still far below Hibiki or Chakotay. After only a week so no-one expected him to become the new Lily master but I'm just saying it's cool how a basic character still has enough to uncover that a world-class player doesn't learn it all automatically. Lily is also DEFINITELY not a Broski character so I take his opinion with a grain of salt, but he's right about the input issues, capcom hates Lily's medium buttons with a passion.
I was a Lily main at release and never really clicked with the launch cast. I liked Lily for the simplicity at first but it became more of a prison since only one button did much. She had to be in the opponents face to do much but needed to get out to rebuild stocks since there arent many ways to integrate that move into combos. I've been trying AKI recently and I'm having a way better time. I don't have to work hard to get wind, combos feel more natural, I can play both zoning and rushdown depending on the round. She honestly feels more like a Guilty Gear character in that way where the design for each character is rushdown+something.
It's spacing dependent. If you're too far the 2HP hits later in its active frames. If you want to do it from a tip range light into drive rush you have to delay it slightly. Super awkward to do. I often just go for DR 5LP 5MK instead in those scenarios.
She's weak on paper but has two of the dumbest moves in the entire game. Crouching fierce is a button you hit over and over again. Still insane against jumps post nerf, still has insane range in neutral. Spire, it's busted and has been busted since release. She's what Honda used to be, just spamming the same crap. She's horribly designed. 95% mediocre, but that 5% is some of the most braindead, oppresive stuff in the entire game.
That is interesting. I guess the main thing is "what's the use case for when that would come up?" I don't even mind her HP has so many Command normals, but I wish her overhead got moved to a different input like f+MP
I would really like to play Lily but yeah I get really bad input errors with her too. I know my execution is far from perfect but I don't get the same errors with any other character apart from her, it's pretty strange.
If I HAD to ask for AKI buffs, the only thing I would ask for is increased damage on SA1. Currently it's tied for the lowest damage on any SA1 with Chun-Li's
Awesome video and I love the breakdown of your thoughts on Lily! Are you planning on spending any more weeklong sessions with any of the other fighters?
ITS REAL SIMPLE: 1. SHE NEEDS A FASTER LIGHT PUNCH WIND CHARGE, OR RATHER, IT NEEDS TO PROPAGATE FASTER THAN THE ANIMATION, AND 2. SHE NEEDS HER WIND CHARGE TO BE A 22P MOVEMENT.. THE REASON FOR THIS IS THAT MOST PLAYERS ACCIDENTALLY DO HER COMMAND GRAB INSTEAD WHEN THEY ARE TRYING TO WIND CHARGE, LEAVING THEM OPEN DURING RECOVERY, AND PUNISHABLE..
Lili is the epitome of sf6. Decent buttons and a cool character design (not gameplay), but none of that matters when you have instant 50/50's from half screen lmao
Broski I know you say you wouldn’t put her bottom 5 and that she’s mid tier but I think everyone in this take game at this point can start in mid tier cause no one’s “bad” in this game so she still might be bottom 5 🤔
The command normal has its uses, but I usually use it after 5HP punish counter. Say 5HP(PC)>6HP>Windclad M. Spire>SA1. Real good chunk of damage if you find that opening and an easy way to combo into that super. Take part of that same combo but after the 6HP do a drive rush 4HP then EX Stock to Windclad SA2.
What's wrong with medium punch and heavy punch? I saw those moves as good spacing attacks and heavy punch does special counter into her combos. With a deive rush heavy punch can combo into her medium and od wind clad which combos in level 3 and 2 respectively.
Does anyone have links or resources going into further detail about Guile's tier placement right now? I've seen the JP tierlists and now this video mentioning him being top 5, but compared to the other obvious top characters I haven't seen as much stuff about why Guile ended up that high.
Shes just not very interesting to play to me, I play t.hawk quite a bit in 4 and he's just way more fun to me and the only way i can describe the difference is that lily feels very pre determined and linear and is missing that kind of i could go for command grab anywhere or go for something stupid like dash up twice and have it be effective, energy
Still in a state of both loving and loathing her core design. Putting all of her power budget into a single move and special whilst having most of her kit feel awkward, underwhelming or outright non-functional to compensate is just not a design that will work in the vast majority of cases imo. That said she is definitely a solid character tier-wise and that's also just depressing. I kind of wish she was as bad as people wanted to think she was early on so that Capcom had more of a fire under their ass to actually rework her windstock system and make her more fun. As it stands she is a scrub killer that nearly everyone I talk to at an early to intermediate level of play cites as one of their least favorite MUs and it isn't hard to see why.
A few ideas for Lily changes that I think could make her a bit more interesting: Change 5HP to 10f startup. Replaces 2HP as Lily's main link combo after 5LP in DR and PC combos. Slightly less damage but would be WAY more consistent and less spacing dependent. In turn, increase 2HP startup from 10f to ~12-13f (So second hit would be 16-17f). This also has the benefit of making 4HP have more use in neutral, as currently both 4HP and the far hit of 2HP are 14f, and 2HP outclasses it in almost every other way. Give OD Condor Wind projectile invuln? It feels often so hard for her to get windstocks against characters with fast fireballs, so this could be a little boost to that if you're willing to spend the drive. Change 5MK from +2 on hit to +3 on hit. Gives her a 5MK->5LP link on CH and 5MK->5MK link on PC. Gives her a bit more options for punishment, as so many times it feels like SPD is the only meaningful punish option until 5HP comes into play.
For OD condor wind, why not just make the held version like 20 frames? Also, 2HP mainly needs hurtbox extensions on the 4th to 7th active frame and be more minus on block. The -2 on block part is part of why it's used over other moves.
@@killercore007 I mean OD condor wind being faster would prob be even better. Safe windstocks off more knockdowns would be really nice. Heck a speedup that extreme that would even make her able to do something like 2HP->OD Wind and she’s +4 on block. Reducing from 40 to 30 something could be reasonable though. 4HP is also -2. I think keeping 2HP as a two hit that’s safe is pretty critical to her kit, as she struggles with a lack of safe ways to confirm otherwise. You could make it -3 so DR 2HP is a bit less potent, you don’t get a true strike/throw 50:50.
@@mikamoschella3410 Yeah, 20 does seem extreme now that you think about it. I do think that the normal spires should have less start up as dp sometimes won't reach and condor wind is usually too slow for most moves to combo into.
The lack of long range, fast conversions without resources is an intentional weakness of Lily and I think it should stay. With Drive (OD Spire or Drive Rush), Windstocks (M or H Windclad Spire), or Super (Level 1), she can fairly reliably combo off three lights or tip range medium kicks.
You said Lily is not bottom 5 but then who is? Now that Zangief has been buffed, I feel like there is a clear bottom 4: Manon, Jamie, Dhalsim and Honda but I don’t think anyone clearly fits with them, and I definitely don’t think there’s another person that’s definitely worse than Lily A lot of people will say Ryu maybe but just because he’s the worst Shoto does not mean he’s worse than Lily… So who’s bottom 5? Still zangief? Or someone else?
hey Broski! can you talk about why you will backdash sometimes in neutral? im new to the game and still learning, so the only information I have about backdashing is that it helps you avoid being grabbed. Is this something specific to Lily that she benefits from? an example would be at 12:55 and 12:59
Hes baiting the opponent to whiff. In 12:59 it almost worked but he was too slow to punish He could also just be trying to create space for building wind stocks, making fireball parry easier
Dunno if you made a mistake but 6 usually refers to holding forward. Numbers in notation are based on your keyboard's numberpad and refer to your stick's position 6 is walking forward, 4 is back, 5 is standing still etc Iirc 6HP is Lily's command normal string
Lily's design in this game is both boring and inconsistent. Cr HP being a god button basically invalids all of her other normals that is very apparent. At least T Hawk in SFlV mechanically made sense, (command grabs being diverse. I.E, heavy grab for raw damage or light grab for oki) while Lily doesn't get any of that and has to reset to neutral after command grabs even when you don't need wind charges. She has to do choirs with a T Hawk build without maintaining his key options, ironically. They're largely the same character, but I argue that Lily is much more dull and less intuitive than T Hawk. The system mechanics in SFVl doesn't do Lily any favors, either.
I never really understood the whole "Lily sucks" thing. She has decent buttons, one of the best special moves, a command grab, she is a god damn pressure monster with wind stock...Do Ryu or Manon if you REALLY wanna take an unremarkable character and sweat for your wins lmao Great vid as always ImI
Ryu is good or at least viable now. He's the most basic shoto you can get, so he can't really be as good as Ken or Akuma, but they just needed some more time to cook on him after figuring out how to best realize their vision of the other two totally agree on Manon though, complete nothingburger of a character. She needs a redesign much more than Lily
Her "one of the best special moves" needs to be OD, needs windstock, and is still easily beaten every time by Drive Reversal, and she needs wind stock to have any sort of pressure while good characters have it for free. This is also basically the only thing she does, which makes her inherently a very limited character. She's also slow, has no reversal, has a bad drive rush. Plus random issues she has, like the worst 4 frame in the game, a terrible cMK, relatively low damage from meter dumps, limited combo routes, etc... There's a reason she has like 2 competitive players and neither tend to perform very well on her at events.
Lily is by no means any near mid tier. She is the worst character in this game hands down. Drive Impact is not the biggest problem she has. It's drive reversal. It counters any and everything this character can throw out that is even slightly dangerous (except for air spire, but you can just block and she's negative 18 at best).
Imagine going on Vacation and then bumping in Problem X
I played Lili once saw c.HP and laughed cause that's all I decided to use. You can probably hit high diamond with that button alone if you want. Insane how good it is.
can confirm yesterday i played a dude in diamond 5 and won a round and was close to winning a game just off of grabs, not one button was pressed so crouch hp with lily is defo doable
Wow, surprised you would give up aki but its cool you’ve found a new main
Is this a joke
It was a good run
@@ValChronificationit’s a joke that stems from internet viewers immediately associating their preferred internet personality picking a character they don’t usually pick with “they’ve dropped [old character] completely and are now a full time [new character] player”
Nah it's cause it's the end of the MR rank phase. Just for fun
He said on stream that he is picking up Ken so he can win capcom cup
I still can’t get over that Ken player from last episode
Same dude. We need a continuation of the Kenfighter1505 saga.
I remember a few people coming at me when I said Capcom didn't do a good job addressing Lily's core weakness in the S2 patch and this is what I meant. She's definitely better now but she still has the S1 Honda problem of having most of her strength focused into a very small part of her kit.
"We looked at improving attacks that didn't see much action in fights" - S2 patch
--> Not even one little change on 6HP and/or the target combo... ^^'
Agree but frankly I dont think you need much more than a fireball invincible full screen frame 8 start up 3 hit tackle that's plus on block, a frame 5 command grab that reaches as far as most medium punches, and a god button in neutral. Her problem is she's so straightforward that if you have an answer she cant really adjust her plan and once she hits the ground its a rough time.
She would require a complete overhaul to make consistently good. That small part of her kit is very strong. Its a lot harder to consistently perfect parry ex spire than buttslam or headbutt
@@McBibz Whats wrong with her 6HP? Damn thing was made for wish punishes. It has no extended hurtbox until the hitbox comes out and its disgustingly disjointed at that.
@@Luchamasterfit
16:03
Slow (18f) with big recovery (24f). Only active for 2f and whole hurtbox is moving forward so easy to whiff punish.
Confirmable but unsafe on block + target combo is terrible (unsafe, bad dmg, bad oki) so you just cancel into enhanced light/od spire no matter what. She doesn't need to "wish punish" with a 18f normal to do that.
It looks like it could be a slow but cool AA, it's not. Pretty sure it was at some point.
You can't link into it (4HP/6HP DR = +17...). You can juggle into it but you don't because it does less damage than 4HP. So yeah, use it when you're a bit too far after a crumple (but not too far) and maybe for wall splats. And that's it.
Or remove it. Make 6HP her overhead instead. Change TC so that it starts with a medium button and can cancel into a ~safe light wind. And see how it goes.
Enhanced od spire (9f startup) and mid/heavy headbutts have similar travel speeds. Pretty sure bias is the main reason you think it's harder to parry.
People who don't play her should stop asking for a "complete overhaul" because they find her annoying. She's not more "straightforward" than Luke...
@@McBibz that was my bad I mixed up 6H and 4H.
You somehow put the perfect amount of matches with the right cuts into this video where it was just perfect. When you got to the finale I couldn't believe the video was ending already. My attention span was perfectly manipulated, thank you Broski
Lily taught me the game without me having to focus on combos and different normals for different situations. Instead it taught me to play neutral and enjoy sf6 with relative ease.
My point is, lily doesn't need to be complicated. Putting her power in a few moves makes her easy to pick up.
Same, playing modern lily really helped me understand managing resources. She's one of those characters where as long as you have some form of resource, you can win!
Yeah I agree, I like Lily because she's easy lol if she became really technical and had to kara every special move or something I would probably just quit playing her even if she was stronger
yea thats really cool but what does that mean for the overall balance and design of a character?
@@polkunus what about the balance? She is fine the way she is now.
Imo, a simple character should never be top tier. But she can hang with the cast, which is good.
@@sloesty i dont think designing a competitive game char around her accessibility is a good idea. You can have both and possibly have her “top tier”.
She is not fine she’s lacking in specific strengths while dumping it nearly all in one button
As a Lily player, quality of life would be vastly improved by moving overhead to df+MP and wind store to QCB+K. One of the most annoying things about playing her is the input overlap.
TBH yeah i just picked her up today and i keep getting DP trying to do driverush overhead
I hope you do one of these for Kimberly one day. I’d really love some insights on if she’s as weak as she seems and if there are some ways to play her that haven’t been explored and if she can be made better.
She's definitely not weak, just not as good as day 1 SF6. She's probably a bit better than Lily, good offense/neutral setups, weird supers, meh defense
god i love Lily's theme so much
Publickip presence felt in both Twitch and TH-cam
It feels really wrong listening to this song in a dark dungeon stage. The song requires a blaring sun set stage
berst character theme in the game free
Serious culturally appropriate bop
@@Apemopo I think that goes to manons theme imo
Chakotay is a legend.
cr HP is Lily's only saving grace
I decided I want to finally tackle learning spd on leverless, and you've inspired me to use Lily to make it happen
I find spds incredibly easy on leverless in modern sfs. is basically just a hcf/HCB tiger knee motion. A stand 720 however I can not for the life me do.
Grinded zangief to master this season on leverless, bro SPDs are a drug. I also cannot do a standing 720 though I find they usually aren't useful, 720s as reversals or after drive rush is how I usually used it
I've been using Lily off and on since release on leverless. The slide technique makes 360s incredibly easy and consistent. If you wanna search a vid, 'How to Hit Box - Slides' will be it.
I learned tager on leverless so that taught it to me. 720s aren't too bad once you try 1080s lol. Can't get standing 720 100% but it's getting there.
"the middest of mid-tiers" - great line. In all seriousness, I always enjoy your analysis of your "vacation/week of" characters. I would love for you to redo Zangief in season 2 like you had done in season 1 to see the differences and provide further analysis.
Honestly, as a Lily main. I think she’s just misunderstood. I don’t think people realize how much tech exists for her without requiring stocks.
She has a few safe jump set up combos that take you to the corner from mid screen, good damage all around and a lot of options if you have a basic concept of spacing.
Condor spire is very strong without charges, very easy to space it out to be plus on block with the only risk of eating a dp or parry. Which allows you to then start baiting reversals.
People get so absorbed by the idea that she has a “neutral skip” that they don’t realize she’s just really solid in neutral and much better if condor spire is sparingly used in neutral.
Condor spire is just good for beating fireballs and depleting your opponents drive gauge and corner carry in combos. Despite Lilys movement speed she has really good corner carry and excels at jailing people in the corner.
I'm considering a few options for the next character to pick up, and I'm kinda at a loss. It feels like there still isn't a character that has necessary "clicked" if that makes any sense. Do you think given the changes made to her since Season 2 started that she is worth learning?
@@odd_cup_of_coffee she’s actually way way better in season 2. Due to her buffs. Her bad match ups are the same but when you land a hit her pressure is stronger and has way more options available. She’s a true vortex grapple now. And the buffs to her mediums made her pressure better and her buttons more threatening.
@@MGTarkus Sounds good, I'll take some time to learn her kit and eventually go into ranked
Thanks o7
Lily is hella misunderstood yeah, look at ken, hes got a neutral skip and everything that makes a character top tier
@MGTarkus would you mind letting me know your most used safe jumps, corner pressure, and corner carry combos when you get a chance? :)
16:27 It's kinda weird that they buff all the target combos of the characters using charges ( Ryu, Honda,... ) by making them special cancelable into charged move.
And then left out Lily, the most charges-depended character of all
16:16 Fr HP from crumple can also combo into M Condor -> lvl 1 from anywhere on the screen. Her lvl 1 has pretty good damage, getting two whiff punishes into those can tear out chunks of health.
I always sacrifice some hp to do m/h version to get 1-2 windstock in the akuma match up, and it helps a lot. Once you get in, they explode in 2 command grab. Lily really hit like a truck.
I can't wait for the week of AKI 🎉
The video starts at 14:20
Thx
as a lily main that heavy button command normal comment hit home
the amount of times i’ve gotten that stupid jump forward flailing her arms around down forward heavy punch normal just trying to get crouch fierce is crazy
I love lily shes so fun
Lily taught me that sometimes you just have to listen to what youre being told in order to beat it
Forward fierce is the only normal that gets lily a guaranteed wall splat in burnout when the opponent has no super. Other normal into DI all lose to gief's 5HP charge and Marisa's stance. You can also frame trap with the 6HP target combo to get a closeup +2 situation. It's pointless to do though😅
It’s Kenfighter1505’s world. We’re just living in it
Wild idea but I think it could be fun if she had airdashes that used wind stocks.
Lily foward heavy punch should hit higher i absolutely hate having people jump right thru it as shes literally swinging up it definitely needs faster start up better hit box
Lily is also extremely vulnerable to low fowards
And i wish they make her overhead a aerial move hate getting grabbed literally in mid air two legs off the ground
So good changes would be
- make Condor Spire break armor if it has wind stocks
- give her fierce command normals more utility, like St.HP groundbounces on air CH, or back HP launches the opponent much higher vertically for different better kinds of combos
- change the wind stock motion to down down or something
- maybe take some qualities of Cr.HP and give them to her other HP normals?
Broski still has a lot to learn about Lily which is cool since she's the most basic character in the game by far. His Lily play is still far below Hibiki or Chakotay. After only a week so no-one expected him to become the new Lily master but I'm just saying it's cool how a basic character still has enough to uncover that a world-class player doesn't learn it all automatically. Lily is also DEFINITELY not a Broski character so I take his opinion with a grain of salt, but he's right about the input issues, capcom hates Lily's medium buttons with a passion.
Can we perhaps get a loading screen emotes tierlist out of this nice lil vacation?
I was a Lily main at release and never really clicked with the launch cast. I liked Lily for the simplicity at first but it became more of a prison since only one button did much. She had to be in the opponents face to do much but needed to get out to rebuild stocks since there arent many ways to integrate that move into combos.
I've been trying AKI recently and I'm having a way better time. I don't have to work hard to get wind, combos feel more natural, I can play both zoning and rushdown depending on the round. She honestly feels more like a Guilty Gear character in that way where the design for each character is rushdown+something.
As a cammy player I hate fighting Lily
Interesting video! Like it!
The week is over i can finally xome back to the stream
6:52 I feel like I've seen other lily's dropping this link a decent amount too
It's spacing dependent. If you're too far the 2HP hits later in its active frames.
If you want to do it from a tip range light into drive rush you have to delay it slightly. Super awkward to do. I often just go for DR 5LP 5MK instead in those scenarios.
She's weak on paper but has two of the dumbest moves in the entire game.
Crouching fierce is a button you hit over and over again. Still insane against jumps post nerf, still has insane range in neutral.
Spire, it's busted and has been busted since release.
She's what Honda used to be, just spamming the same crap. She's horribly designed. 95% mediocre, but that 5% is some of the most braindead, oppresive stuff in the entire game.
Lily's forward HP also juggles air opponents. It''ll probably never happen but the more you know ig 🤷🏽♂️
That is interesting. I guess the main thing is "what's the use case for when that would come up?"
I don't even mind her HP has so many Command normals, but I wish her overhead got moved to a different input like f+MP
I tend to catch people trying to jump back with this. But when I use it, I am usually following it up with spire
I would really like to play Lily but yeah I get really bad input errors with her too.
I know my execution is far from perfect but I don't get the same errors with any other character apart from her, it's pretty strange.
Broski has a grappler heart❤
Only suggestions i have for Aki are quality of life. Balance wise shes perfect rn
If I HAD to ask for AKI buffs, the only thing I would ask for is increased damage on SA1. Currently it's tied for the lowest damage on any SA1 with Chun-Li's
she said 👍 in the thumbnail
the Takes flying around in chat were so crazy i was getting distracted from the matches fr......... so is week of manon next :)
They'll make lily better in the omega version
“This matchup is kinda clown shoes” Honda and Lily are the most clown shoes characters in this game besides Blanka 💀
Awesome video and I love the breakdown of your thoughts on Lily! Are you planning on spending any more weeklong sessions with any of the other fighters?
ITS REAL SIMPLE: 1. SHE NEEDS A FASTER LIGHT PUNCH WIND CHARGE, OR RATHER, IT NEEDS TO PROPAGATE FASTER THAN THE ANIMATION, AND 2. SHE NEEDS HER WIND CHARGE TO BE A 22P MOVEMENT.. THE REASON FOR THIS IS THAT MOST PLAYERS ACCIDENTALLY DO HER COMMAND GRAB INSTEAD WHEN THEY ARE TRYING TO WIND CHARGE, LEAVING THEM OPEN DURING RECOVERY, AND PUNISHABLE..
You could have just tried guessing a coin flip all afternoon and figure out how it feels to play Lily.
Boom im in here champ
That 5s countdown needs to be studied at Harvard, or Oxford or whatever
THawk is way cooler! Never be sorry.
10:11 Bro is beating up a kid
week of honda next?👀
Lili is the epitome of sf6. Decent buttons and a cool character design (not gameplay), but none of that matters when you have instant 50/50's from half screen lmao
"cool character design"
@@lukeblaker8009 I meant strictly character not gameplay. God no
She is without a doubt the worst character design in the game.
Not a fan give me thawk a million times over this. Ss did it way better with Cham cham.
@@XLBlades it's a testament to SF6's good character design cus her's is probably the weakest but not terrible by any means
10:25
I think this is the best part about grappler Broski. He uses the CA as a threat and teases you with it
Broski I know you say you wouldn’t put her bottom 5 and that she’s mid tier but I think everyone in this take game at this point can start in mid tier cause no one’s “bad” in this game so she still might be bottom 5 🤔
im curious what makes rashid rank so high compared to season 1? they nerfed him right? much love btw i learned how to play aki from ur vids
The 6HP combo is so weird. Less damage than 4HP or 2HP into Condor Spire, and with worse oki too.
The command normal has its uses, but I usually use it after 5HP punish counter. Say 5HP(PC)>6HP>Windclad M. Spire>SA1. Real good chunk of damage if you find that opening and an easy way to combo into that super. Take part of that same combo but after the 6HP do a drive rush 4HP then EX Stock to Windclad SA2.
@@GatoRudemanI prefer using 5HP over 4 HP for that combo as it's way more consistant and don't really have to worry about timing
Elchakotay. 😉
Lilly is weak but she was created to annoy Honda matchup ( Honda main speaking 😂 )
What's wrong with medium punch and heavy punch? I saw those moves as good spacing attacks and heavy punch does special counter into her combos. With a deive rush heavy punch can combo into her medium and od wind clad which combos in level 3 and 2 respectively.
100% win rate so far against lily and im very proud of that. im no broski though lol i dont fight punk etc every night but still
0:59 Uh, excuse me? What kind of mess is this? What did he hit?? This ain't right. They need to fix this, man. C'mon!! 🤦🏾♂
@18:07 there's no hurtbox till you get to her head. That's cap imo,
'cause @00:59 Honda whiff punished her stick
That's just because Honda's 5HP is massive as well
@@Brotlov hmm
@@peacefulhooligan8081cr hp has an additional hurtbox during recovery (broski only showed the active frames)
Does anyone have links or resources going into further detail about Guile's tier placement right now? I've seen the JP tierlists and now this video mentioning him being top 5, but compared to the other obvious top characters I haven't seen as much stuff about why Guile ended up that high.
hi broski im early so im just gonna say im a big fan :)
She needs more cancelable normals and she will be fine
yippie
Shes just not very interesting to play to me, I play t.hawk quite a bit in 4 and he's just way more fun to me and the only way i can describe the difference is that lily feels very pre determined and linear and is missing that kind of i could go for command grab anywhere or go for something stupid like dash up twice and have it be effective, energy
How would MenaRD vs Kobayan Zangief mirror match for CC 2024 change your T5?
Still in a state of both loving and loathing her core design. Putting all of her power budget into a single move and special whilst having most of her kit feel awkward, underwhelming or outright non-functional to compensate is just not a design that will work in the vast majority of cases imo.
That said she is definitely a solid character tier-wise and that's also just depressing. I kind of wish she was as bad as people wanted to think she was early on so that Capcom had more of a fire under their ass to actually rework her windstock system and make her more fun. As it stands she is a scrub killer that nearly everyone I talk to at an early to intermediate level of play cites as one of their least favorite MUs and it isn't hard to see why.
I tried her in the beginning but I found her too repetitive and not having many tools. I went back to dhalsim.
A few ideas for Lily changes that I think could make her a bit more interesting:
Change 5HP to 10f startup. Replaces 2HP as Lily's main link combo after 5LP in DR and PC combos. Slightly less damage but would be WAY more consistent and less spacing dependent.
In turn, increase 2HP startup from 10f to ~12-13f (So second hit would be 16-17f). This also has the benefit of making 4HP have more use in neutral, as currently both 4HP and the far hit of 2HP are 14f, and 2HP outclasses it in almost every other way.
Give OD Condor Wind projectile invuln? It feels often so hard for her to get windstocks against characters with fast fireballs, so this could be a little boost to that if you're willing to spend the drive.
Change 5MK from +2 on hit to +3 on hit. Gives her a 5MK->5LP link on CH and 5MK->5MK link on PC. Gives her a bit more options for punishment, as so many times it feels like SPD is the only meaningful punish option until 5HP comes into play.
For OD condor wind, why not just make the held version like 20 frames?
Also, 2HP mainly needs hurtbox extensions on the 4th to 7th active frame and be more minus on block. The -2 on block part is part of why it's used over other moves.
@@killercore007 I mean OD condor wind being faster would prob be even better. Safe windstocks off more knockdowns would be really nice. Heck a speedup that extreme that would even make her able to do something like 2HP->OD Wind and she’s +4 on block. Reducing from 40 to 30 something could be reasonable though.
4HP is also -2. I think keeping 2HP as a two hit that’s safe is pretty critical to her kit, as she struggles with a lack of safe ways to confirm otherwise. You could make it -3 so DR 2HP is a bit less potent, you don’t get a true strike/throw 50:50.
Hurtbox extension is necessary you right tho. They already did that a bit in the Akuma patch but it needs more
@@mikamoschella3410 Yeah, 20 does seem extreme now that you think about it. I do think that the normal spires should have less start up as dp sometimes won't reach and condor wind is usually too slow for most moves to combo into.
The lack of long range, fast conversions without resources is an intentional weakness of Lily and I think it should stay.
With Drive (OD Spire or Drive Rush), Windstocks (M or H Windclad Spire), or Super (Level 1), she can fairly reliably combo off three lights or tip range medium kicks.
Are you doing any of the upcoming capcom cup tournaments?
I dont like how you have to pay money to make Lily not look like a deformed troll doll
You said Lily is not bottom 5 but then who is? Now that Zangief has been buffed, I feel like there is a clear bottom 4: Manon, Jamie, Dhalsim and Honda but I don’t think anyone clearly fits with them, and I definitely don’t think there’s another person that’s definitely worse than Lily
A lot of people will say Ryu maybe but just because he’s the worst Shoto does not mean he’s worse than Lily…
So who’s bottom 5? Still zangief? Or someone else?
hey Broski! can you talk about why you will backdash sometimes in neutral? im new to the game and still learning, so the only information I have about backdashing is that it helps you avoid being grabbed. Is this something specific to Lily that she benefits from? an example would be at 12:55 and 12:59
Hes baiting the opponent to whiff. In 12:59 it almost worked but he was too slow to punish
He could also just be trying to create space for building wind stocks, making fireball parry easier
@@neon-lake i see! thanks for helping me understand :D
GUUUDD GUUUDD LET THE HATE FLOW THROUGH YOU = play Modern Lily
Sorry don’t know - are you on stick, pad or leverless?
The way she's animated makes it so easy to punish anything she does
id like to see your input on kimberly
LMAO is that a Twoflower skin on Honda???
There are several buttons in his tutorial that I don't know what they mean because I'm new to fighting games. Can someone explain to me what 6ps is?
Dunno if you made a mistake but 6 usually refers to holding forward. Numbers in notation are based on your keyboard's numberpad and refer to your stick's position
6 is walking forward, 4 is back, 5 is standing still etc
Iirc 6HP is Lily's command normal string
What do you mean?????
Obviously Jamie top 3, easily
IDK what a fierce is, nor should I
do manon next
how does aki do well against ed? Seems like 5-5
When are we getting Week of Jamie :p
Isn't Aki super vulnerable to DI as well?
Lily's design in this game is both boring and inconsistent. Cr HP being a god button basically invalids all of her other normals that is very apparent. At least T Hawk in SFlV mechanically made sense, (command grabs being diverse. I.E, heavy grab for raw damage or light grab for oki) while Lily doesn't get any of that and has to reset to neutral after command grabs even when you don't need wind charges. She has to do choirs with a T Hawk build without maintaining his key options, ironically.
They're largely the same character, but I argue that Lily is much more dull and less intuitive than T Hawk. The system mechanics in SFVl doesn't do Lily any favors, either.
Weak???Have you seen the amount of life she takes from rivals with that typhoon NORMAL special move??😅
What does 6ps mean? I'm new to the game
It's numerical notation. 6HP means forward + hp.
Funny thing is they just nerfed her cr hp
Bro that cammy was so lost😂 Block for two seconds, hold forward, get hit, repeat🤣 Not hittin buttons, no other ideas…
I dont think ed is that good of a character
I never really understood the whole "Lily sucks" thing. She has decent buttons, one of the best special moves, a command grab, she is a god damn pressure monster with wind stock...Do Ryu or Manon if you REALLY wanna take an unremarkable character and sweat for your wins lmao
Great vid as always ImI
Ryu is good or at least viable now. He's the most basic shoto you can get, so he can't really be as good as Ken or Akuma, but they just needed some more time to cook on him after figuring out how to best realize their vision of the other two
totally agree on Manon though, complete nothingburger of a character. She needs a redesign much more than Lily
Her "one of the best special moves" needs to be OD, needs windstock, and is still easily beaten every time by Drive Reversal, and she needs wind stock to have any sort of pressure while good characters have it for free. This is also basically the only thing she does, which makes her inherently a very limited character. She's also slow, has no reversal, has a bad drive rush. Plus random issues she has, like the worst 4 frame in the game, a terrible cMK, relatively low damage from meter dumps, limited combo routes, etc... There's a reason she has like 2 competitive players and neither tend to perform very well on her at events.
She's just a really lame character... period.
Lily is by no means any near mid tier. She is the worst character in this game hands down. Drive Impact is not the biggest problem she has. It's drive reversal. It counters any and everything this character can throw out that is even slightly dangerous (except for air spire, but you can just block and she's negative 18 at best).
Delete and replace with T Hawk.
No views in 1 minute this doing numbers