There was precedent for this as David O. McKay had several counsellors, as many as five, I think, including Alvin R. Dyer, who, when President McKay died, returned not to the Quorum of the Twelve but to being an Assistant to the Twelve.
I’ll try again: I believe the subject of your first episode is well-chosen. The question of the rightful successor of the Prophet Joseph Smith is probably the most important historical question of the Mormon Restoration. As you have noted at the beginning of your podcast, the late D. Michael Quinn addressed this question in 1975 in an issue of BYU Studies, the University’s academic journal (in which, serendipitously, my article on Shakespeare’s Measure for Measure also happened to appear). Quinn was one of Mormonism’s best historians. However, as I pointed out to him while he lived, his 1975 monograph entirely ignored the historical quorum with the highest and best claim to succeed Joseph Smith, namely, the Quorum of the Anointed, consisting of men and women fully endowed after May of 1842 and fully anointed after September of 1843 to the Holy Order of God, that is as kings and priests and queens and priestesses of the fullness of the priesthood. At the August 1844 trial of Sydney Rigdon, which was reported soon after in the Times and Seasons, Brigham Young made no claim that the Twelve had a right to succeed Joseph Smith as head of the Church. Members of the Twelve only testified as witnesses at that trial, while William Marks and the High Council of Zion presided as judges. The testimony of members of the Twelve did not claim that the Twelve should succeed Joseph Smith, but rather that Sydney Rigdon had insufficient priesthood authority to lead the Church. Apostle W. W. Phelps explained why: Sydney Rigdon had not received his full endowment or his second anointing and washings and, therefore, did not possess the fullness of the priesthood that would allow him to succeed Joseph Smith as Church president and president of the Holy Order. Moreover, at that trial, Brigham Young did not assert Doctrine and Covenants 107:24 to claim that the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles had authority equal to the First Presidency over the Church. He did not do this because he understood (what many do not understand now) that D&C 107:23 limits the scope of D&C 107:24. Taken together, those two verses mean that the Twelve have authority with the First Presidency, not over the Church, but in the mission field where the Church is not organized. D&C 107:24 is misunderstood because we have forgotten that its context is “Church versus World.” The First Presidency, the High Council of Zion, and the high councils of the stakes of Zion are priesthood bodies with authority over the Saints in the Church. The Twelve are a traveling high council in the World, not the Church. With the assistance of the Seventy, the Twelve have authority equal to the First Presidency to preach the gospel in the mission fields where there is no Church organized and to build up the Church by organizing branches and stakes. Once organized, these structures fall under the direction of the First Presidency, the High Council of Zion, and the various high councils at the stakes of Zion. Because he understood D&C 107:23-24, Brigham Young did not claim succession on behalf of the Twelve at the trial of Rigdon. There is nowhere in the Mormon canon a revelation which has been sustained by the General Assembly of the Church that the Twelve are the legitimate successors to Joseph and Hyrum Smith. There is no revelation sustained by the members that the apostle in the Quorum of the Twelve with the longest uninterrupted service in that quorum should be president of the Church. Based on the records of Second Anointings, the first couple to receive their second anointing was Joseph and Emma Smith. At the time they were anointed Joseph Smith was anointed president of the Anointed Quorum and “companion [Ditto]” (I believe the record of this ritual appears in the Joseph Smith Papers under the date, September 28, 1843). Based on this evidence, I believe that upon the death of Joseph Smith, the person with the strongest claim to succeed him was Emma Smith, who had been anointed with her husband Joseph as co-president of the Quorum of the Anointed. I believe Quinn amended his original assertions in his 1975 monograph because, in later papers, he wrote that the Quorum of the Anointed was more than a mere prayer circle, as he assumed earlier, but that it was actually a priesthood body that governed the Church in the last 18 months of Joseph Smith’s life. I understand how shocking these assertions are. I also understand that, because I am an excommunicant my research carries little weight. However, as I argue in my book The Serpent and the Dove (of which you are apparently unaware) only the Anointed Quorum of men and women fully endowed and jointly anointed to the fullness of the priesthood could possibly, as a theological matter, have had in 1844 the full priesthood authority to succeed and preside over the Church and the priesthood orders after the murders of Joseph and Hyrum Smith. To discuss this further you may reach me at paul.toscano@gmail.com
Thank you for your thoughtful response Brother Tascoano. Andrew Ehat in his master’s thesis would agree with your conclusions. The one point of conversation that seems to become a point of contention is the “doctrine of fullness of priesthood or second anointing” which appears to be the reason for forming the quorum - to disseminate such blessings or keys. Since no one wants to broach this topic publicly and its nature should probably not be in a forum where pearls would be cast where they aught not. It appears the understanding of the end would bring clarity to the beginning so to speak. The blessings and keys conferred in the quorum gives understanding to why Heber Kimball stated there are men here who don’t have “enough priesthood” and the statement correct me if I’m wrong please Brigham said, “ you can never go wrong if you follow a majority of the twelve. Said I believe because Joseph had only given 9 of the twelve these blessings and charged Brigham to bring the other three home and confer upon the remaining three as soon as possible. You say you are disqualified to offer your opinion these thoughts will clearly be disqualified as they are offered by a manual laborer. Thank you brethren for an excellent show very thought provoking. It may also be helpful that a dear friend of mine, Hyrum Andrus, felt that Brother Rigdon was dismissed by Joseph in the Nauvoo period and only the saints were interested in keeping Sydney around. Brother Andrus felt there was a mountain of evidence that Sydney was out as far as Joseph was concerned.
Did you guys reference the work of Andrew Ehat on this topic? He had a great masters thesis Wayback that I am in possession of and that you can get from BYU. Lots of good stuff in there.
It's cogent that the Doctrine and Covenants states that the Twelve are equal in authority AND power to the First Presidency while the Seventy are only equal to the Twelve in authority (without "power" being mentioned in this second reference). This difference in wording is not without meaning.
Jospeh Smith had designated his successor, especially to the Quorum of the Twelve. All the others were power gabs by leading individuals. That is why so many left the Church afterwards.
I think this comment is referring to the Q12 being the successor, holding the keys together as a group, none can act alone. This is one of the reasons, when the apostles were separated and persecuted in the decades after Christ, they were not able to ordain new apostles as they had in the beginning with Mathias, because they were separated too far. Matthias replaced Judas, and Paul, who was ordained at some point ( Romans 1:1)may have simply been an addition. Galatians 2:9 gives a clue that Peter, James, and John, who had been present at the ordination of Jesus (IMHO), were the first presidency, so it was likely (IMHO) that their were 15 apostles in New Testament times as well as now.
I think they make it clear that First Presidency/Quorum of 12 was supposed to lead. With it being so messy and everyone away, it wasn't such a clear process. Especially with Sidney Rigdon being away and not wanting to join with the 12. So much can happen, with humans, it's good they have a clear process these days.
The succession plan is in The Doctrine & Covenants and was what was followed, even though people didn't realize that they were following it. Joseph Smith didn't even fully realize it himself. Brigham Young kind of realized it then later sort of forgot about it. But it still got followed right at the crucial moments.
If it were not inspired, I would say that the system of succession that finally developed is genius. The president of the Church calls apostles, who enter as the most junior members of the Twelve. It is likely decades, long after the death of the president who called him, before he becomes the most senior member -- if he even lives that long, which most do not. Thus, it is practically impossible for anyone to create, or to appear to create, a dynasty. Only God has the foresight to know who will still be alive decades after their call. While fallible men constitute its leadership, God is at the helm of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
The Assistant President issue is interesting because it could have been a succession plan, and I think there's something to it, but at the same time it was also designed for the President and Assistant President to die as martyrs. I feel like the Assistant President position could possibly be revived but without the need then for the Assistant President to seal his testimony with his blood.
I can see your comment, Brother Toscano, and I appreciate your thoughts and the respectful way that you presented them. Regardless of whether you are an excommunicant, you are loved as a Brother in Christ.
I’m hooked with this podcast!!!!
Thank you for all your hard work in presenting this episode. Enjoyable and informative. Well done!
This is a great series. Thank you so much for making it available to us!!
Good stuff, thanks!!!
Before becoming second counselor to President Kimball President Hinckley was briefly designated an "additional counselor."
And Hinckley was appointed to that role specifically because someone needed to do the work of the First Presidency.
There was precedent for this as David O. McKay had several counsellors, as many as five, I think, including Alvin R. Dyer, who, when President McKay died, returned not to the Quorum of the Twelve but to being an Assistant to the Twelve.
@brb5506 And Thorpe B. Isaacson.
@@CMZIEBARTH Who returned to the Twelve?
@@brb5506I think he returned to being an assistant to the Twelve.
I’ll try again:
I believe the subject of your first episode is well-chosen. The question of the rightful successor of the Prophet Joseph Smith is probably the most important historical question of the Mormon Restoration.
As you have noted at the beginning of your podcast, the late D. Michael Quinn addressed this question in 1975 in an issue of BYU Studies, the University’s academic journal (in which, serendipitously, my article on Shakespeare’s Measure for Measure also happened to appear).
Quinn was one of Mormonism’s best historians. However, as I pointed out to him while he lived, his 1975 monograph entirely ignored the historical quorum with the highest and best claim to succeed Joseph Smith, namely, the Quorum of the Anointed, consisting of men and women fully endowed after May of 1842 and fully anointed after September of 1843 to the Holy Order of God, that is as kings and priests and queens and priestesses of the fullness of the priesthood.
At the August 1844 trial of Sydney Rigdon, which was reported soon after in the Times and Seasons, Brigham Young made no claim that the Twelve had a right to succeed Joseph Smith as head of the Church. Members of the Twelve only testified as witnesses at that trial, while William Marks and the High Council of Zion presided as judges. The testimony of members of the Twelve did not claim that the Twelve should succeed Joseph Smith, but rather that Sydney Rigdon had insufficient priesthood authority to lead the Church. Apostle W. W. Phelps explained why: Sydney Rigdon had not received his full endowment or his second anointing and washings and, therefore, did not possess the fullness of the priesthood that would allow him to succeed Joseph Smith as Church president and president of the Holy Order.
Moreover, at that trial, Brigham Young did not assert Doctrine and Covenants 107:24 to claim that the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles had authority equal to the First Presidency over the Church. He did not do this because he understood (what many do not understand now) that D&C 107:23 limits the scope of D&C 107:24. Taken together, those two verses mean that the Twelve have authority with the First Presidency, not over the Church, but in the mission field where the Church is not organized. D&C 107:24 is misunderstood because we have forgotten that its context is “Church versus World.” The First Presidency, the High Council of Zion, and the high councils of the stakes of Zion are priesthood bodies with authority over the Saints in the Church. The Twelve are a traveling high council in the World, not the Church. With the assistance of the Seventy, the Twelve have authority equal to the First Presidency to preach the gospel in the mission fields where there is no Church organized and to build up the Church by organizing branches and stakes. Once organized, these structures fall under the direction of the First Presidency, the High Council of Zion, and the various high councils at the stakes of Zion. Because he understood D&C 107:23-24, Brigham Young did not claim succession on behalf of the Twelve at the trial of Rigdon.
There is nowhere in the Mormon canon a revelation which has been sustained by the General Assembly of the Church that the Twelve are the legitimate successors to Joseph and Hyrum Smith. There is no revelation sustained by the members that the apostle in the Quorum of the Twelve with the longest uninterrupted service in that quorum should be president of the Church.
Based on the records of Second Anointings, the first couple to receive their second anointing was Joseph and Emma Smith. At the time they were anointed Joseph Smith was anointed president of the Anointed Quorum and “companion [Ditto]” (I believe the record of this ritual appears in the Joseph Smith Papers under the date, September 28, 1843). Based on this evidence, I believe that upon the death of Joseph Smith, the person with the strongest claim to succeed him was Emma Smith, who had been anointed with her husband Joseph as co-president of the Quorum of the Anointed.
I believe Quinn amended his original assertions in his 1975 monograph because, in later papers, he wrote that the Quorum of the Anointed was more than a mere prayer circle, as he assumed earlier, but that it was actually a priesthood body that governed the Church in the last 18 months of Joseph Smith’s life.
I understand how shocking these assertions are. I also understand that, because I am an excommunicant my research carries little weight. However, as I argue in my book The Serpent and the Dove (of which you are apparently unaware) only the Anointed Quorum of men and women fully endowed and jointly anointed to the fullness of the priesthood could possibly, as a theological matter, have had in 1844 the full priesthood authority to succeed and preside over the Church and the priesthood orders after the murders of Joseph and Hyrum Smith.
To discuss this further you may reach me at paul.toscano@gmail.com
Thank you for your thoughtful response Brother Tascoano. Andrew Ehat in his master’s thesis would agree with your conclusions. The one point of conversation that seems to become a point of contention is the “doctrine of fullness of priesthood or second anointing” which appears to be the reason for forming the quorum - to disseminate such blessings or keys. Since no one wants to broach this topic publicly and its nature should probably not be in a forum where pearls would be cast where they aught not.
It appears the understanding of the end would bring clarity to the beginning so to speak.
The blessings and keys conferred in the quorum gives understanding to why Heber Kimball stated there are men here who don’t have “enough priesthood” and the statement correct me if I’m wrong please Brigham said, “ you can never go wrong if you follow a majority of the twelve. Said I believe because Joseph had only given 9 of the twelve these blessings and charged Brigham to bring the other three home and confer upon the remaining three as soon as possible.
You say you are disqualified to offer your opinion these thoughts will clearly be disqualified as they are offered by a manual laborer.
Thank you brethren for an excellent show very thought provoking.
It may also be helpful that a dear friend of mine, Hyrum Andrus, felt that Brother Rigdon was dismissed by Joseph in the Nauvoo period and only the saints were interested in keeping Sydney around. Brother Andrus felt there was a mountain of evidence that Sydney was out as far as Joseph was concerned.
*sigh*
Brethren, Read your Doctrine and Covenants.
Did you guys reference the work of Andrew Ehat on this topic? He had a great masters thesis Wayback that I am in possession of and that you can get from BYU. Lots of good stuff in there.
They have mentioned it in at least one prior episode.
It's cogent that the Doctrine and Covenants states that the Twelve are equal in authority AND power to the First Presidency while the Seventy are only equal to the Twelve in authority (without "power" being mentioned in this second reference). This difference in wording is not without meaning.
Alpheus Cutler later admitted privately that he fabricated his claim but also didn't want his followers to find that out.
Jospeh Smith had designated his successor, especially to the Quorum of the Twelve. All the others were power gabs by leading individuals. That is why so many left the Church afterwards.
I'm a new convert a year ago and looking into church history. Who are you referring to? When you say Joseph Smith designated his successor. Thanks
I think this comment is referring to the Q12 being the successor, holding the keys together as a group, none can act alone. This is one of the reasons, when the apostles were separated and persecuted in the decades after Christ, they were not able to ordain new apostles as they had in the beginning with Mathias, because they were separated too far. Matthias replaced Judas, and Paul, who was ordained at some point ( Romans 1:1)may have simply been an addition. Galatians 2:9 gives a clue that Peter, James, and John, who had been present at the ordination of Jesus (IMHO), were the first presidency, so it was likely (IMHO) that their were 15 apostles in New Testament times as well as now.
I think they make it clear that First Presidency/Quorum of 12 was supposed to lead. With it being so messy and everyone away, it wasn't such a clear process. Especially with Sidney Rigdon being away and not wanting to join with the 12. So much can happen, with humans, it's good they have a clear process these days.
On second thought most of this podcast is about how Joseph Smith had not clarified and that lead to the crisis.
The succession plan is in The Doctrine & Covenants and was what was followed, even though people didn't realize that they were following it. Joseph Smith didn't even fully realize it himself. Brigham Young kind of realized it then later sort of forgot about it. But it still got followed right at the crucial moments.
If it were not inspired, I would say that the system of succession that finally developed is genius. The president of the Church calls apostles, who enter as the most junior members of the Twelve. It is likely decades, long after the death of the president who called him, before he becomes the most senior member -- if he even lives that long, which most do not. Thus, it is practically impossible for anyone to create, or to appear to create, a dynasty. Only God has the foresight to know who will still be alive decades after their call. While fallible men constitute its leadership, God is at the helm of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
The Assistant President issue is interesting because it could have been a succession plan, and I think there's something to it, but at the same time it was also designed for the President and Assistant President to die as martyrs. I feel like the Assistant President position could possibly be revived but without the need then for the Assistant President to seal his testimony with his blood.
I attempted to post a comment, but it doesn’t appear. I can’t tell if it is unwanted or was too long.
I can see your comment, Brother Toscano, and I appreciate your thoughts and the respectful way that you presented them. Regardless of whether you are an excommunicant, you are loved as a Brother in Christ.
Paul, I can see a long comment from you. UPDATE: Maybe it's your second attempt I'm seeing.
I love my country. I still dont trust the government.