This is aamazing...having built 60 violins, violas and celli...the mixing of two differnt trees to accommodate the bass side...and the trebel side ia brilliant and intuitive to a spiritual degree in Stradivarius's Catholic world...thankyou...a retired award winning master luthier...informative...I have held a number of Strads..including one of his 2 guitars...in Oberlin SD before they were put into enclosures in 1988?...so fortunate....I created an authentic baroque strad copy..to spec...a lovely beast.
Thank you SO much for such detailed explanations of your statistical analysis. God created the entire universe and especially humanity on His rule of complimentary opposites. To take such divine inspirations and apply them masterfully to their work is mind-blowing. To use the youngest part of the tree with the most obtuse ring structure onto the part of the violin with the most acute curves, and then to do the opposite with the oldest part of the tree with the most acute ring structure onto the most obtuse curves of the violin... explains so much about how and why Stradivari would use God's rule of complimentary opposites in building the acoustical value of his instruments! It's the use of tension and resistance to perfection and who could think of that but a master craftsman. WOW! And it doesn't even end there... I am thoroughly blown away by this video! Thank you Mr. Ratcliff!!
Very interesting forensic analysis. I know just a little of the data on the wood types from hand made flamenco guitars made in Spain that also use snowline Spruce for the soundboard as well as the internal fan bracing. Excellent documentary, compliments.
Apologies for the automatic subtitles! didn't know they were there until my father pointed out that my name was not Peter Active! I'm sure I've missed some, but subtitles are better, and also corrected the bit about the wood of the "Missile"
Stradivarius used timbers that were over 250 years old most of the 250 year old trees have long gone. Only in the Balkans and Carpathian Mountains trees that are left so commanding high prices . Sadly due to pressure trees are harvested at 60 to 80 years but never have the same qualities as when Stradivarius used .
Imagine if Stradivari could see how thoroughly his violins are being examined today. I think he would be amazed and confused at why there is so much controversy.
He would probably look at them, and say in Italian, it's just good maple, very good spruce, and these old crinkly hands. Of course you want to know the chemical process. I won't tell you. My knowledge is mine. I can see that you know enough. You have the secret. Believe in what you know. Love what you know. And by all means, play these violins, that's why I made them. There my opinion of his thoughts.
@@patriciajrs46 È solo un buon acero, un ottimo abete e queste vecchie mani rugose. Ovviamente vuoi conoscere il processo chimico. non te lo dico. La mia conoscenza è mia. Vedo che ne sai abbastanza. Hai il segreto. Credi in ciò che sai. Ama ciò che sai. E con tutti i mezzi, suona questi violini, ecco perché li ho fatti.
It would be interesting to find out if the dataset could reveal / predict the overall size of the spruce trees used in making these violins by analyzing the rings on the instruments; and further predict which specific sections of the trees the wood would have come from that was used for making the specific parts of the instruments. I would love to know...
Hi Clara, based on thousands of tests, it appears that most of the trees used in the first half of the 18th century were actually quite small (probably many less than 30 cms in diameter). The latest rings are therefore relatively close to the bark or outside of the tree and the oldest near the centre of the tree. The round billets would be split in a "cake-like" fashion, into wedges, just big enough to make half of the soundboard. 2 wedges, more often than not, from the same tree would then be jointed together to make these 2 piece fronts. Processing the wood in that manner, there was very little wastage. There are a few exceptions, but it seems that this was the procedure adopted by most makers in Italy at the time. Very few violin fronts were made from larger trees big enough to produce one-piece fronts. These would need to have been over 45-50 cms in diameter). Before 1700, this was far more common than after ( in Italy). Kind regards, Peter
Thank you for sharing this interesting work! I'm just wondering - shouldn't it read "in ligno veritas" (truth lies in the wood), as "in lignum" means "against the wood" or "into the wood/forest"?
I have no doubt that the Messie does exist. Long story. However,I suspect that the violin seen in the Ashmolean museum is a very very good copy. The real thing is under lock and key
@@simonscott5427 Hi Simon, All the tests are based on the tree ring measurements taken from the violin in the Ashmolean violin, so I am not quite sure what you base your comments on?
From the dendrochronology, are you able to determine the general location of the trees that Stradivari used? Is it high altitude Italian Dolomites near Trento (slopes of the Fiemme Valley perhaps), or the mid-altitude foothills near Cremona, or somewhere else entirely?
a great presentation and very convincing!. my only kind request as a musician:i kept going back mid argument... please lose the music because I kept finding myself losing your train of thought as i have been trained to concentrate on the musical sounds rather than speech...
Honest and informative. Of course these tests can never tell us if Vuillaume bought unassembled components or raw wood from Tarisio's stash and cobbled it into the Messiah.
@@peterratcliff1020 Nope, all conjecture. But what I've always wondered is did Stradivari keep an inventory of violins in his shop window or did he only build to order. If the latter, then how did this violin remain unsold in Stradivari's lifetime?
Could this analysis also be done with piano soundboards? Who are the best people in this field in the US? Moreover, do you believe in the little-ice age theory of superior tonewood?
Yes, sure. I haven't tested modern pianos but dozens of soundboards of early keyboards dating back to the 17th century. I test now mainly from high resolution images, so analyses can be done at distance. What sort of piano do you have in mind? Feel free to contact me at my email violin.dendro "at"yahoo.com Regarding the little ice age, there are plenty of tonally very ordinary instruments made with wood that grew during that period, and the huge variety of grain patterns and morphology of tree-ring structure that I see on a daily basis don't really support this hypothesis. Furthermore, many violins made by Stradivari actually contain a small percentage of rings that grew during the specific period of the Maunder Minimum
No, we don't know the felling date, but we can estimate it, based on the various instruments made from that tree. Currently, the very latest ring available for that tree, actually present on a violin is from 1701 (If I remember correctly) and the earliest instrument made from that tree is dated 1710. This span of 9 years is not at all unusual when it comes to Italian instruments. I actually do not believe that makers "seasoned" their wood, as we understand today. The reason is almost certainly, that fresh wood was split into small wedges. These would become dimensionally stable within months, and therefore usable.
@@peterratcliff1020 Thank you very much for these information. I think that violin makers of our days who make new instruments still split their wood stems to store and to work on them. It is simply practical.
Yes good day my name is MANUEL LEONOR from the Philipines i inherited the 1716 stradivarius violin from my father which was a birthday gift of my grand grand mother for my father. How can you help me to dispose this instrument? Im planning to show it to you the authencicity and eager to visit your place after this pandemic. Kindly communicate with regarding this matter if your interested and really appreciate it. Thank you so much .
Peter Ratcliff Hello Peter. I really enjoyed your video and can only say that dislike comments are very often just a silly game by viewers. Comments about sound quality/music are very common also. If a piece of music clashes with your presentation then the viewer can always remind and listen again. I chose the Messiah as my second violin making attempt, and by pure chance I purchased spruce and maple in preparation for my third. I am an amateur player and maker, fascinated by the different tones between my numerous fiddles.
Is it there any chance the wood to meet your test but the instrument to be from 2016 ?I have some ideas how to build a "strad"if you find me some piece of spruce from some old house in Swiss.A ... bay the way. The technology is far ahead and I wonder why everything is about the wood?There can be made a chemical test of the glue,the layer,varnish...And of course acoustic and resonance research.?
Sure you can make a new violin with old Swiss wood, but to meet the criteria to cross-match with the Stradivari, including the Messiah, the tree-ring pattern would have to be very similar, and I have never seen un-worked wood with this pattern so far. Old Swiss Alpine wood actually works far better for cross-matching than the wood of the Messiah. I think you would need more that "some ideas how to build a Strad" to fool experts like W.E.Hill and Sons, Charles Beare, and many others. Remember that the Messiah violin was always supposed to be a Stradivari, well before anybody knew anything about dendrochronology.
It’s not impossible that annular ring patterns within the same log would vary greatly, as southern exposure may influence one side as well as harsh cold might slow growth on the opposing side. That’s just my cheap coffee table hunch at this point; subject to change.
Ring patterns within one log can indeed vary, especially so when trees are growing on a slope. Essentially, in these cases, the trees try to grow vertically. This creates significant tension within the log, which produces wider rings on one side and narrower ones on the other. This would be called compression wood (or tension wood in hardwoods). The pith or the oldest parts of the rings, normally situated at the symmetrical centre of the log can be seriously displaced towards one side in "reaction" wood. Although your idea sounds interesting about exposure, I do not believe this has much effect on the circumferential variations of a single tree's inner growth.
I am able to reproduce the chronology of the Messiah treble side from a fairly low res digital image with correlation .985 to the dataset in the ITRDB. However, I am apparently unable to reproduce the chronology of the ex-Wilhelmj treble side derived from an image of much higher resolution. That chronology looks much different in my case from what you show here and consequently the results for Messiah vs. ex-Wilhelmj do not replicate in my analyses. Given the high accuracy with which the Messiah chronology can be reproduced from a digital image, I consider unlikely that I derived the ex-Wilhelmj chronology incorrectly.
Then maybe you are measuring the other (1725) ex-Wilhelmj? It is the treble side (only) of the 1724 ex-Wilhelmj that cross-matches the treble side of the Messiah particularly well. My data-series of the treble side of the Wilhelmj actually look extremely similar (as it should) to data independently collected by another specialist in the field on the same violin, so I suspect you have a mistake somewhere.
@@peterratcliff1020 Unfortunately, I cannot find a good enough image of that violin in the public domain. I'm going to try others. Thanks for the clarification.
@@peterratcliff1020 Thank you, Peter. I managed to obtain an image. I am working on a study that mainly uses simulations and bootstrap analyses of European forests. Some of the results are relevant to your work or may be of related interest. I am happy to share a copy once the write-up is in good shape.
I can replicate Wilhelmj 1724 treble vs Grissino Meyer's Messiah chronology, and the t value is 8.1 instead of 11.2. This also happens to me with other results, always 3 points less. What could be the reason? Thank you Peter for your valuable contribution
Franco, Have you got accurate measurements of the Wilhelmj, the t-value will be affected if you don't. And also, the ring pattern of the Messiah varies somewhat according to where on the front you test as there is quite a bot of inner tree variations in that wood.
@@peterratcliff1020 So is it possible that measurements from images with tailpieces may give slight differences in numbers? the Whilelmj image is hd from Tarisio (I have a subscription) I follow the measurement rules: I don't use TSAP but CDendro, could it be a difference between software? Sorry but I don't want to be at your level, just curiosity. thanks
@@MrFranscoz CDendro use the same algorithm TVBP (Baillie & Pilcher) as TSAP so if that's what you are set on ( as there are other T-value formulas in CDendro and TSAP) you will get the same whether on CDendro or TSAP. As I said, it will be the measurements. I have 6 different sets of Measurements for the Messiah, and the ones available online are not the ones giving the best results. As mentioned, there are variations of ring measurements on the wood of the Messiah, which can lower the correlation levels. Re-do your measurements and create a mean of several sets, and you may(?) find that the t-value is boosted.
Mr. Beare always affirmed that the Messiah is a genuine Stradivari. He spoke about this in a panel discussion at the VSA.Convention in 2000, you can read the proceedings in the VSA Journal. Now we see a further prove that he was right.
For Strads, the best test is micron level X-ray CT scans of the two plates for topological analysis. Antonio Stradivari worked to 1/10 mm accuracy in his plates. He worked the regions under the fingerboard and tweeter (left of the left f-hole), 30 mm from the soundpost. This carving is critical.
The definition and physical significance of the t value was glossed over yet it is the basis for the whole argument. Maybe this was done for ancillary reasons but it seriously weakens the argument. In the age of pcr why not do a dna test? That seems to me to be the most definitive, on the wood anyway.
As the t-value calculation according to Baillie & Pilcher is an accepted and widely used formula for cross-dating tree-ring series in several professional software packages, I don't see how it weakens the argument in any way whatsoever??
That's kind of like saying 'because, because...' In any data set you can always find some correlation somewhere, but that does not imply an actual cause-effect relationship.
Are you saying that out of the million+ correlations calculated, the fact that the 5 out of the 10 most significant, -using the accepted Baillie & Pilcher formula-, are with data from other Stradivari, is somehow made up or better, a coincidence? Either you didn't watch the video or I didn't explain it well. I did not create the algorithm and formula to prove a point, it is the one that I have always used. It is not "some correlation, somewhere", far from it. As mentioned in the video, I did not "pick out" the interesting results, they are the most significant out of the whole database. If you think I going wrong somewhere, please explain precisely where and why, as eminent colleagues who know very well how tree-ring series behave, have sent me very favorable reports, and one, who teaches the subject, wants to use the documentary in his sillabus next semester.
I am saying that you have one data point which is meaningless without a control group. "Accepted baillie and pilcher" means nothing. How do I know that if you take any piece of spruce you would not get a similar result. Right now you are propagating a statistical fallacy.
"How do I know that if you take any piece of spruce you would not get a similar result" You clearly have not watched the video, or understood the process, as this is exactly what I address, ie testing against "any" piece of spruce available to me. The same statistical tests (Baillie and Pilcher) which incidentally does not mean "nothing" otherwise it would not be used by dendrochronologists throughout the world, (would it??) were done against a database of thousands of ring patterns. Are you seriously telling me that the most significant results are randomly generated.?? Baillie & Pilcher algorithm identifies contemporaneous tree-ring series, you can easily test that for yourself using dated Master references publicly available from the International Tree-Ring Databank. What "data point" are you talking about? and in what way am I propagating a statistical fallacy? I am truly interested as this indeed would be a blow to the dendrochronological community, who have been using similar cross-matching methods over the last few decades. I honestly do not see what point you are trying to make.
You dont's have a real Strad. They are all accounted for. 25 million copies have been made in the last 150 years. They are still being made. The best test is micron level X-ray CT scans of the two plates for topological analysis. Antonio Stradivari worked to 1/10 mm accuracy in his plates. He worked the regions under the fingerboard and tweeter (left of the left f-hole), 30 mm from the soundpost. This carving is critical.
well unless your super famous or ready to spend 2m from your pocket, then likely its a strad copy. same demensions, just canr get the same tone or quality due to how the esrth was cleaner hence cleaner and bettwr wood from back then
Very interesting, but a little to difficult for me. I am not a mathematician or a physicist or a biologian, and I am also not a violin maker. The referent stucks really very deeply in his matter. That is good, naturally, but sometimes a little too difficult for people like me who haven`t learned or studied any of the subjects I have mentioned here.
fake accent too, have to admit he sounds knowledgeable and respectful of the scientific principles, but that fake image he gives off is very off putting
@@kanatsizkanatli Sorry my accent doesn't suit you. I was born in Switzerland and came to the UK age 18, my accent is what it became after spending all this time here.
Maybe, just maybe, everything would be more credible if Mr. Ratcliff and other self acclaimed dendrochronologist would open up their own databases to the public. Like reseachers do. It is an insolent thing to say, that master chronologies are an dendrochronologist's "backbone of their analyses" and follow with, but their are "inadequate".
Hello Certelis, Yes, the Master chronologies are useful, but very incomplete, as they only cover certain areas at certain elevations, and since as tree-ring growth response can vary quite significant according to its altitude, many regions/valleys are far from being catered for in the information supplied by Master chronologies. Thanks also for putting words into my mouth, as I have never said "my references are better, but you have to pay for them and will never get to see them, You have to believe me.'". Had you contacted me or had any dealings with me, you would know that I am always delighted to share any data with colleagues. As any of my "violin advisors" whoever they may be. Since as this is my JOB, and that I, too, have to occasionally pay rent, and also eat, yes , I do charge for me services. I hope that's all right with you. What's your job? and who pays YOU? Do YOU published ALL your data ( if that's what you're into) that actually pays your rent, for all competitors to see? When I get time, I will published some of the data (as I have already done in the past, by the way). Interestingly, since the video, several more same-tree-connections have been identified, with contemporary instruments, but not by Stradivari, including one by a member of the Rugeri family. Who are you? anyway?
@@peterratcliff1020 Dear Mr. Ratcliff, i am slightly astounded by the emotional response (All-Caps?), since it does not adress the issue at hand. I am not criticising the fact that you make a living with what you are doing. I am concerned about how science is used to mask personal expertise, since the samples of reference (instruments measured by you, I guess) you are citing here and in your publications very strongly are not access- and verifiable by the public or at least by researchers. Do not get me wrong, this is nothing personal. To your credit, you provided at least some examples of your data via NCEI. So this is more about the whole field of self acclaimed dendrochronologist in the stringed-instrument market and what will come crumbling down in the next few years. Who am I, should not really matter, since that is the problem with all of the expertise on violins. It is not about a scientific consensus, it is more about who has a certain reputation, which no one seems to question. Once again, this is not about you personally and as a peace-offer, I will take down the words I seem to have put in your mouth, which was not my intention. With the critic on the private databases, when claiming scientific methods, I have to stand by. And yes, my findings as a researcher are out in the public, some of them as contributions to Master Chronologies, the depiction of bowed instruments on the Luthiers Library and papers at several institutions about historical instruments. An yes I pay rent and yes I am making a living without hiding my findings from 'competitors'. Since I have your attention: how do you compensate tree-ring inclination on bigger instruments? Since even on the most radial cut bellies, there is deviation. With best regards, Josef Jakob Certelis
Why this violin carries the name "Messiah"? Has it something to do with the oratory by Handel? It sounds so maniac or blasphemic for me. Anyhow, it is odd or strange. I think that, unfortunately my understanding of oral English in speeches is not so good. I am German. Therefore, excuse me because of my stupid questions.
It’s called Messiah because someone in the 19th century said that it was “like the Messiah” because a trader/merchant always talked about owning it, but it never appeared. Then after that merchant’s death it appeared in the hands of JB Vuillaume. Because JB Vuillaume was both a savvy trader and great violin maker and copyist, the question is: did he really acquire the Messiah with the merchant’s estate or did he just make the violin himself and pass it off as a Stradivarius?
Very interesting research. But it doesn’t account for the genius of Stradivari. As a contemporary violin maker I don’t find this useful to me as a maker. I can not at age 73 get twenty pieces of spruce from the same tree in Italy or Austria. Great research but not really useful for a maker in 2020. Thank you. But we don’t know how the messiah sounds. I saw the original. It’s sunk in on one dude - the bass bar side and the instrument has a darker red varnish on top and more orange red on the back. It is the model I follow for aesthetic reasons Thanks fir this research .
Complicated nonsense for sure. Most Strads loose out to other violins of good make and composition when entered into hearing quality sound by blind sound tests.
What use of the violins which won't sing but were confined into the glass cabinets in museums by being totally dumb!🤔 There are wonderful violinists who are dreaming of a stradivarious or a guanarious, throughout the world. !
I should suggest you redo this presentation using over laid photos of the growth rings of the instruments on your data base the old saying a picture speaks a thousand words Your speech is not close mic ed dis guard the back ground music the subject is to important for this poor presentation
As tree growth is NEVER perfectly concentric, overlaying pictures would not show what you want to see, which is why graphs are shown. I am sorry you find it a poor presentation, several eminent dendrochronologists beg to differ. I take your point about the music, which others have also made. This was a totally solo effort and should I make another video, these points will be considered.
Your patience with the criticisms is remarkable. I know it's held to be essential these days that anyone should be able to criticise anything, but thank you whole-heartedly for the video.
Thanks for your comment, @@dionlindsay2 , I don't mind criticisms, especially intelligent thoughts and suggestions. The res speaks for itself. All the best, P
![[UNCUT] ฝันรักห้วงนิทรา | EP.8 (4/4)](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/RDYJYiDwsj0/mqdefault.jpg)
This is fascinating-Thank you for sharing your knowledge!
This is aamazing...having built 60 violins, violas and celli...the mixing of two differnt trees to accommodate the bass side...and the trebel side ia brilliant and intuitive to a spiritual degree in Stradivarius's Catholic world...thankyou...a retired award winning master luthier...informative...I have held a number of Strads..including one of his 2 guitars...in Oberlin SD before they were put into enclosures in 1988?...so fortunate....I created an authentic baroque strad copy..to spec...a lovely beast.
Thank you Peter for the very detailed scientific and informative content.. Thanks a lot...
Very well done! Quite clear and easy to follow.
Thank you SO much for such detailed explanations of your statistical analysis. God created the entire universe and especially humanity on His rule of complimentary opposites. To take such divine inspirations and apply them masterfully to their work is mind-blowing. To use the youngest part of the tree with the most obtuse ring structure onto the part of the violin with the most acute curves, and then to do the opposite with the oldest part of the tree with the most acute ring structure onto the most obtuse curves of the violin... explains so much about how and why Stradivari would use God's rule of complimentary opposites in building the acoustical value of his instruments! It's the use of tension and resistance to perfection and who could think of that but a master craftsman. WOW! And it doesn't even end there... I am thoroughly blown away by this video! Thank you Mr. Ratcliff!!
Very interesting forensic analysis. I know just a little of the data on the wood types from hand made flamenco guitars made in Spain that also use snowline Spruce for the soundboard as well as the internal fan bracing. Excellent documentary, compliments.
Great video and thanks for the highly interesting lesson!
A fascinating video!
Great detective work! Thanks for the presentation.
hi Peter this is a very interesting and great report I really enjoyed it very much
Apologies for the automatic subtitles! didn't know they were there until my father pointed out that my name was not Peter Active! I'm sure I've missed some, but subtitles are better, and also corrected the bit about the wood of the "Missile"
Stradivarius used timbers that were over 250 years old most of the 250 year old trees have long gone. Only in the Balkans and Carpathian Mountains trees that are left so commanding high prices . Sadly due to pressure trees are harvested at 60 to 80 years but never have the same qualities as when Stradivarius used .
Imagine if Stradivari could see how thoroughly his violins are being examined today. I think he would be amazed and confused at why there is so much controversy.
Maybe He would regard it as a total waste of time....
@@101stuey He may very well work on new violins and wonder how much the price would be in an auction 🦉
He would probably look at them, and say in Italian, it's just good maple, very good spruce, and these old crinkly hands. Of course you want to know the chemical process. I won't tell you. My knowledge is mine. I can see that you know enough. You have the secret. Believe in what you know. Love what you know. And by all means, play these violins, that's why I made them.
There my opinion of his thoughts.
@@patriciajrs46 È solo un buon acero, un ottimo abete e queste vecchie mani rugose. Ovviamente vuoi conoscere il processo chimico. non te lo dico. La mia conoscenza è mia. Vedo che ne sai abbastanza. Hai il segreto. Credi in ciò che sai. Ama ciò che sai. E con tutti i mezzi, suona questi violini, ecco perché li ho fatti.
@@bobadams179 My phone won't let me translate this one. Sorry. I wish you could tell me, in English.
It would be interesting to find out if the dataset could reveal / predict the overall size of the spruce trees used in making these violins by analyzing the rings on the instruments; and further predict which specific sections of the trees the wood would have come from that was used for making the specific parts of the instruments. I would love to know...
Hi Clara, based on thousands of tests, it appears that most of the trees used in the first half of the 18th century were actually quite small (probably many less than 30 cms in diameter). The latest rings are therefore relatively close to the bark or outside of the tree and the oldest near the centre of the tree. The round billets would be split in a "cake-like" fashion, into wedges, just big enough to make half of the soundboard. 2 wedges, more often than not, from the same tree would then be jointed together to make these 2 piece fronts. Processing the wood in that manner, there was very little wastage. There are a few exceptions, but it seems that this was the procedure adopted by most makers in Italy at the time. Very few violin fronts were made from larger trees big enough to produce one-piece fronts. These would need to have been over 45-50 cms in diameter). Before 1700, this was far more common than after ( in Italy). Kind regards, Peter
Did he say Messiah! I fell asleep half way through and awoken to 1717 discoveries, great voice for relaxation when chilling on the couch....Messiah!
Viva el Maestro A. Stradivarius !
It sounds great with my phone lying on its tummy . It curbs all music ..
Thank you for sharing this interesting work! I'm just wondering - shouldn't it read "in ligno veritas" (truth lies in the wood), as "in lignum" means "against the wood" or "into the wood/forest"?
Please share video if you find it useful, informative or revealing
!
I have no doubt that the Messie does exist. Long story.
However,I suspect that the violin seen in the Ashmolean museum is a very very good copy. The real thing is under lock and key
@@simonscott5427 Hi Simon, All the tests are based on the tree ring measurements taken from the violin in the Ashmolean violin, so I am not quite sure what you base your comments on?
From the dendrochronology, are you able to determine the general location of the trees that Stradivari used? Is it high altitude Italian Dolomites near Trento (slopes of the Fiemme Valley perhaps), or the mid-altitude foothills near Cremona, or somewhere else entirely?
Very good question. Also how long was the wood dried before he used it? Some makers say 5 years or more, some say 10 or more.
I believe that I read an article that said it was in the Fiemme Valley.
a great presentation and very convincing!. my only kind request as a musician:i kept going back mid argument... please lose the music because I kept finding myself losing your train of thought as i have been trained to concentrate on the musical sounds rather than speech...
Honest and informative. Of course these tests can never tell us if Vuillaume bought unassembled components or raw wood from Tarisio's stash and cobbled it into the Messiah.
Did Tarisio have a stash of raw wood from Stradivari's shop? I don't think there is any evidence to that effect.
@@peterratcliff1020 Nope, all conjecture. But what I've always wondered is did Stradivari keep an inventory of violins in his shop window or did he only build to order. If the latter, then how did this violin remain unsold in Stradivari's lifetime?
Why do you say Vuillaume, when Stradvari made this violin?
I noticed that the notches in the F holes line up with the intonation points for the bridge. Is that on purpose?
Yes, I believe it is. I watched a geometric video on his violins and they said it was not random, but geometry, science.
Do you actually take a scraping from the instrument? Doesn't that mess up the violin?
W.O.W.
This video would be better without the background music. It's distracting. Or maybe I'm too easily distracted.
Could this analysis also be done with piano soundboards? Who are the best people in this field in the US? Moreover, do you believe in the little-ice age theory of superior tonewood?
Yes, sure. I haven't tested modern pianos but dozens of soundboards of early keyboards dating back to the 17th century. I test now mainly from high resolution images, so analyses can be done at distance. What sort of piano do you have in mind? Feel free to contact me at my email violin.dendro "at"yahoo.com Regarding the little ice age, there are plenty of tonally very ordinary instruments made with wood that grew during that period, and the huge variety of grain patterns and morphology of tree-ring structure that I see on a daily basis don't really support this hypothesis. Furthermore, many violins made by Stradivari actually contain a small percentage of rings that grew during the specific period of the Maunder Minimum
Do you know the date the trees were felled?...thus we will know how many years the wood dried. Thanks for the presentation
No, we don't know the felling date, but we can estimate it, based on the various instruments made from that tree. Currently, the very latest ring available for that tree, actually present on a violin is from 1701 (If I remember correctly) and the earliest instrument made from that tree is dated 1710. This span of 9 years is not at all unusual when it comes to Italian instruments. I actually do not believe that makers "seasoned" their wood, as we understand today. The reason is almost certainly, that fresh wood was split into small wedges. These would become dimensionally stable within months, and therefore usable.
@@peterratcliff1020 Thank you very much for these information. I think that violin makers of our days who make new instruments still split their wood stems to store and to work on them. It is simply practical.
Yes good day my name is MANUEL LEONOR from the Philipines i inherited the 1716 stradivarius violin from my father which was a birthday gift of my grand grand mother for my father. How can you help me to dispose this instrument? Im planning to show it to you the authencicity and eager to visit your place after this pandemic. Kindly communicate with regarding this matter if your interested and really appreciate it. Thank you so much .
I am interested in the reason for the dislikes? anything in particular, or is it just you don't like the evidence?
Please remove the music! It is very distracting.
Please remove all music from your lecture. It is very distracting.
Peter Ratcliff they are on every video I watch. It’s not you
Peter Ratcliff
Hello Peter. I really enjoyed your video and can only say that dislike comments are very often just a silly game by viewers. Comments about sound quality/music are very common also. If a piece of music clashes with your presentation then the viewer can always remind and listen again. I chose the Messiah as my second violin making attempt, and by pure chance I purchased spruce and maple in preparation for my third. I am an amateur player and maker, fascinated by the different tones between my numerous fiddles.
Is it there any chance the wood to meet your test but the instrument to be from 2016 ?I have some ideas how to build a "strad"if you find me some piece of spruce from some old house in Swiss.A ... bay the way. The technology is far ahead and I wonder why everything is about the wood?There can be made a chemical test of the glue,the layer,varnish...And of course acoustic and resonance research.?
Sure you can make a new violin with old Swiss wood, but to meet the criteria to cross-match with the Stradivari, including the Messiah, the tree-ring pattern would have to be very similar, and I have never seen un-worked wood with this pattern so far. Old Swiss Alpine wood actually works far better for cross-matching than the wood of the Messiah. I think you would need more that "some ideas how to build a Strad" to fool experts like W.E.Hill and Sons, Charles Beare, and many others. Remember that the Messiah violin was always supposed to be a Stradivari, well before anybody knew anything about dendrochronology.
Peter. i have a violin the level inside says Antonio Stradivarius made in anno 1722 it looks genuine, but i want to make sure need your help..
@@joseromo5497 Take a photograph of the label and send it to Mr. Radcliffe.
It’s not impossible that annular ring patterns within the same log would vary greatly, as southern exposure may influence one side as well as harsh cold might slow growth on the opposing side. That’s just my cheap coffee table hunch at this point; subject to change.
Ring patterns within one log can indeed vary, especially so when trees are growing on a slope. Essentially, in these cases, the trees try to grow vertically. This creates significant tension within the log, which produces wider rings on one side and narrower ones on the other. This would be called compression wood (or tension wood in hardwoods). The pith or the oldest parts of the rings, normally situated at the symmetrical centre of the log can be seriously displaced towards one side in "reaction" wood. Although your idea sounds interesting about exposure, I do not believe this has much effect on the circumferential variations of a single tree's inner growth.
@@peterratcliff1020 Very interesting. Thank you.
@@patriciajrs46 Thanks Patricia, I thought it was too! and there is a lot more since the video was done, maybe a book one day...
@@peterratcliff1020 Congrats. I hope you do write the book. Make sure to include photos. Good luck.
Could have told us more about the violin!
I am able to reproduce the chronology of the Messiah treble side from a fairly low res digital image with correlation .985 to the dataset in the ITRDB. However, I am apparently unable to reproduce the chronology of the ex-Wilhelmj treble side derived from an image of much higher resolution. That chronology looks much different in my case from what you show here and consequently the results for Messiah vs. ex-Wilhelmj do not replicate in my analyses. Given the high accuracy with which the Messiah chronology can be reproduced from a digital image, I consider unlikely that I derived the ex-Wilhelmj chronology incorrectly.
Then maybe you are measuring the other (1725) ex-Wilhelmj? It is the treble side (only) of the 1724 ex-Wilhelmj that cross-matches the treble side of the Messiah particularly well. My data-series of the treble side of the Wilhelmj actually look extremely similar (as it should) to data independently collected by another specialist in the field on the same violin, so I suspect you have a mistake somewhere.
@@peterratcliff1020 oy vey, that would be it. now i have to find the second.
@@peterratcliff1020 Unfortunately, I cannot find a good enough image of that violin in the public domain. I'm going to try others. Thanks for the clarification.
@@danielmalter3373 Good picture of it on Cozio, if you're a subscriber
@@peterratcliff1020 Thank you, Peter. I managed to obtain an image. I am working on a study that mainly uses simulations and bootstrap analyses of European forests. Some of the results are relevant to your work or may be of related interest. I am happy to share a copy once the write-up is in good shape.
Is it made of acacia wood?
I can replicate Wilhelmj 1724 treble vs Grissino Meyer's Messiah chronology, and the t value is 8.1 instead of 11.2. This also happens to me with other results, always 3 points less. What could be the reason? Thank you Peter for your valuable contribution
Franco, Have you got accurate measurements of the Wilhelmj, the t-value will be affected if you don't. And also, the ring pattern of the Messiah varies somewhat according to where on the front you test as there is quite a bot of inner tree variations in that wood.
@@peterratcliff1020 So is it possible that measurements from images with tailpieces may give slight differences in numbers? the Whilelmj image is hd from Tarisio (I have a subscription) I follow the measurement rules: I don't use TSAP but CDendro, could it be a difference between software? Sorry but I don't want to be at your level, just curiosity. thanks
@@MrFranscoz CDendro use the same algorithm TVBP (Baillie & Pilcher) as TSAP so if that's what you are set on ( as there are other T-value formulas in CDendro and TSAP) you will get the same whether on CDendro or TSAP. As I said, it will be the measurements. I have 6 different sets of Measurements for the Messiah, and the ones available online are not the ones giving the best results. As mentioned, there are variations of ring measurements on the wood of the Messiah, which can lower the correlation levels. Re-do your measurements and create a mean of several sets, and you may(?) find that the t-value is boosted.
@@peterratcliff1020 thanks Peter.
Tenho um modelo 1716 pensa num som reprica fabricado a mao 2010
Thanks for this....
Wasn't Mr. Beare expressing skepticism about the Messiah's authenticity about 25 years ago at a VSA lecture?
...and now?
Did he?
Mr. Beare always affirmed that the Messiah is a genuine Stradivari. He spoke about this in a panel discussion at the VSA.Convention in 2000, you can read the proceedings in the VSA Journal. Now we see a further prove that he was right.
Ciao Carlo!
For Strads, the best test is micron level X-ray CT scans of the two plates for
topological analysis. Antonio Stradivari worked to 1/10 mm accuracy in
his plates. He worked the regions under the fingerboard and tweeter
(left of the left f-hole), 30 mm from the soundpost. This carving is
critical.
Tenho um 2010
One side
The definition and physical significance of the t value was glossed over yet it is the basis for the whole argument. Maybe this was done for ancillary reasons but it seriously weakens the argument.
In the age of pcr why not do a dna test? That seems to me to be the most definitive, on the wood anyway.
As the t-value calculation according to Baillie & Pilcher is an accepted and widely used formula for cross-dating tree-ring series in several professional software packages, I don't see how it weakens the argument in any way whatsoever??
That's kind of like saying 'because, because...' In any data set you can always find some correlation somewhere, but that does not imply an actual cause-effect relationship.
Are you saying that out of the million+ correlations calculated, the fact that the 5 out of the 10 most significant, -using the accepted Baillie & Pilcher formula-, are with data from other Stradivari, is somehow made up or better, a coincidence? Either you didn't watch the video or I didn't explain it well. I did not create the algorithm and formula to prove a point, it is the one that I have always used. It is not "some correlation, somewhere", far from it. As mentioned in the video, I did not "pick out" the interesting results, they are the most significant out of the whole database. If you think I going wrong somewhere, please explain precisely where and why, as eminent colleagues who know very well how tree-ring series behave, have sent me very favorable reports, and one, who teaches the subject, wants to use the documentary in his sillabus next semester.
I am saying that you have one data point which is meaningless without a control group. "Accepted baillie and pilcher" means nothing. How do I know that if you take any piece of spruce you would not get a similar result. Right now you are propagating a statistical fallacy.
"How do I know that if you take any piece of spruce you would not get a similar result" You clearly have not watched the video, or understood the process, as this is exactly what I address, ie testing against "any" piece of spruce available to me. The same statistical tests (Baillie and Pilcher) which incidentally does not mean "nothing" otherwise it would not be used by dendrochronologists throughout the world, (would it??) were done against a database of thousands of ring patterns. Are you seriously telling me that the most significant results are randomly generated.??
Baillie & Pilcher algorithm identifies contemporaneous tree-ring series, you can easily test that for yourself using dated Master references publicly available from the International Tree-Ring Databank.
What "data point" are you talking about? and in what way am I propagating a statistical fallacy? I am truly interested as this indeed would be a blow to the dendrochronological community, who have been using similar cross-matching methods over the last few decades.
I honestly do not see what point you are trying to make.
I wish I had a Date with that Violin!!;
MUST we listen to this music? seriously, it is in the way!
The music ruins this wonderful discussion. I had to turn it off. So irritating...
Sorry, I sacked the sound engineer...I got the wrong advice. I can only suggest for you to turn sound off and put the subtitles on
Music in beginning is fine, but don't keep it going while you're trying to talk
How dare you call Handel "irritating".
I wish I had then neck must be at the cloverbar dump.
???? No sense at all.
I would say redo this video and turn the music down, or as some people have suggested, eliminate it all together.
Peter i have a violin made Antonio stradivarius, made in anno 1722. need to check if is real it looks genuine, But i need to be sure, need help.
You dont's have a real Strad. They are all accounted for. 25 million copies have been made in the last 150 years. They are still being made. The best test is micron level X-ray CT scans of the two plates for topological analysis. Antonio Stradivari worked to 1/10 mm accuracy in his plates. He worked the regions under the fingerboard and tweeter (left of the left f-hole), 30 mm from the soundpost. This carving is critical.
well unless your super famous or ready to spend 2m from your pocket, then likely its a strad copy. same demensions, just canr get the same tone or quality due to how the esrth was cleaner hence cleaner and bettwr wood from back then
French ?
Very interesting, but a little to difficult for me. I am not a mathematician or a physicist or a biologian, and I am also not a violin maker. The referent stucks really very deeply in his matter. That is good, naturally, but sometimes a little too difficult for people like me who haven`t learned or studied any of the subjects I have mentioned here.
come contattare peter Ratclif
Ciao Giovanni, scrivimi tramite sito violin-dendrochronology.com/contact
@@peterratcliff1020 ok! Peter BUONA DOMEN8CA
whys this guy dressed like a chef
fake accent too, have to admit he sounds knowledgeable and respectful of the scientific principles, but that fake image he gives off is very off putting
@@kanatsizkanatli Sorry my accent doesn't suit you. I was born in Switzerland and came to the UK age 18, my accent is what it became after spending all this time here.
Maybe, just maybe, everything would be more credible if Mr. Ratcliff and other self acclaimed dendrochronologist would open up their own databases to the public. Like reseachers do.
It is an insolent thing to say, that master chronologies are an dendrochronologist's "backbone of their analyses" and follow with, but their are "inadequate".
Hello Certelis, Yes, the Master chronologies are useful, but very incomplete, as they only cover certain areas at certain elevations, and since as tree-ring growth response can vary quite significant according to its altitude, many regions/valleys are far from being catered for in the information supplied by Master chronologies.
Thanks also for putting words into my mouth, as I have never said "my references are better, but you have to pay for them and will never get to see them, You have to believe me.'". Had you contacted me or had any dealings with me, you would know that I am always delighted to share any data with colleagues. As any of my "violin advisors" whoever they may be.
Since as this is my JOB, and that I, too, have to occasionally pay rent, and also eat, yes , I do charge for me services. I hope that's all right with you.
What's your job? and who pays YOU? Do YOU published ALL your data ( if that's what you're into) that actually pays your rent, for all competitors to see?
When I get time, I will published some of the data (as I have already done in the past, by the way).
Interestingly, since the video, several more same-tree-connections have been identified, with contemporary instruments, but not by Stradivari, including one by a member of the Rugeri family.
Who are you? anyway?
@@peterratcliff1020 Dear Mr. Ratcliff, i am slightly astounded by the emotional response (All-Caps?), since it does not adress the issue at hand. I am not criticising the fact that you make a living with what you are doing. I am concerned about how science is used to mask personal expertise, since the samples of reference (instruments measured by you, I guess) you are citing here and in your publications very strongly are not access- and verifiable by the public or at least by researchers.
Do not get me wrong, this is nothing personal. To your credit, you provided at least some examples of your data via NCEI. So this is more about the whole field of self acclaimed dendrochronologist in the stringed-instrument market and what will come crumbling down in the next few years.
Who am I, should not really matter, since that is the problem with all of the expertise on violins. It is not about a scientific consensus, it is more about who has a certain reputation, which no one seems to question. Once again, this is not about you personally and as a peace-offer, I will take down the words I seem to have put in your mouth, which was not my intention. With the critic on the private databases, when claiming scientific methods, I have to stand by.
And yes, my findings as a researcher are out in the public, some of them as contributions to Master Chronologies, the depiction of bowed instruments on the Luthiers Library and papers at several institutions about historical instruments. An yes I pay rent and yes I am making a living without hiding my findings from 'competitors'.
Since I have your attention: how do you compensate tree-ring inclination on bigger instruments? Since even on the most radial cut bellies, there is deviation.
With best regards, Josef Jakob Certelis
Am1 din1737 sale
Why this violin carries the name "Messiah"? Has it something to do with the oratory by Handel? It sounds so maniac or blasphemic for me. Anyhow, it is odd or strange. I think that, unfortunately my understanding of oral English in speeches is not so good. I am German. Therefore, excuse me because of my stupid questions.
It’s called Messiah because someone in the 19th century said that it was “like the Messiah” because a trader/merchant always talked about owning it, but it never appeared. Then after that merchant’s death it appeared in the hands of JB Vuillaume. Because JB Vuillaume was both a savvy trader and great violin maker and copyist, the question is: did he really acquire the Messiah with the merchant’s estate or did he just make the violin himself and pass it off as a Stradivarius?
@@danielmalter3373 That is the question, now isn't it.
Very interesting research. But it doesn’t account for the genius of Stradivari. As a contemporary violin maker I don’t find this useful to me as a maker. I can not at age 73 get twenty pieces of spruce from the same tree in Italy or Austria. Great research but not really useful for a maker in 2020. Thank you. But we don’t know how the messiah sounds. I saw the original. It’s sunk in on one dude - the bass bar side and the instrument has a darker red varnish on top and more orange red on the back. It is the model I follow for aesthetic reasons Thanks fir this research .
Well. I can put the tone wood debt in the guitar community to bed. Turns out,........it matters.
How random is this
Complicated nonsense for sure. Most Strads loose out to other violins of good make and composition when entered into hearing quality sound by blind sound tests.
What use of the violins which won't sing but were confined into the glass cabinets in museums by being totally dumb!🤔
There are wonderful violinists who are dreaming of a stradivarious or a guanarious, throughout the world. !
I should suggest you redo this presentation using over laid photos of the growth rings of the instruments on your data base
the old saying a picture speaks a thousand words
Your speech is not close mic ed dis guard the back ground music the subject is to important for this poor presentation
As tree growth is NEVER perfectly concentric, overlaying pictures would not show what you want to see, which is why graphs are shown. I am sorry you find it a poor presentation, several eminent dendrochronologists beg to differ. I take your point about the music, which others have also made. This was a totally solo effort and should I make another video, these points will be considered.
Your patience with the criticisms is remarkable. I know it's held to be essential these days that anyone should be able to criticise anything, but thank you whole-heartedly for the video.
Thanks for your comment, @@dionlindsay2 , I don't mind criticisms, especially intelligent thoughts and suggestions. The res speaks for itself. All the best, P