Discussion - Illegal Plant Poaching With Karen @floribundanursery | Part 2 - Addressing Demand
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 7 ก.พ. 2025
- This is part 2 of a discussion on Illegal plant poaching of endemic Indonesian species. The first part was filmed in Bahasa Indonesia as it targets the supply side of poaching (Local Indonesians). That episode is subbed in English, so I implore you to watch that first before catching on to this one. Bu Karen, who has been in the horticultural business and international trade for over 30 years is experienced and passionate about this subject matter. She shares her experience and thought on this issue. In the later half of the video, I added some of my thoughts and call for action. I hope this video will help you make informed choices about your plant sourcing and have a better understanding of the global plant market as well as our natural world.
My instagram: @bo.tan.ist
Support me on patreon: / seanfromonlyplants
Jazz background music made by Rhythm Alley
/ rhythmalley.taiwan
Background music are created by me exclusively for this channel
Thanks to Ibu Karen Tambayong and Sean, this good information for all of us... This is important thing to preserve rare plants, especially in Indonesia, hopefully in the future these plants will be develope/multiply and registered first before leaving Indonesia .
It is extremely important to protect plants in their natural environment! Great to sensibilise people! The natural environment will always be the best and the beautifulest place for plants !
💯❤️
Thanks for covering this. For plants in conservation forest, it is clearer, everythings cannot leave the forest. the problem is if they are outside the conservation area and are not protected plants. The institution who have authority is the regional BKSDA, and they dont have regulation for ornamental plants, they are already busy with illegal logging and forest encroachment, ornamental plants are definitely not their priority. Lack of research on araceae/aroid also causes not many aroid plants have a clear conservation status.
For native/endemic plant, what is happening now is between nursery and hunter fighting each other. Nurseries can't compete with hunters because cultivating plants takes time and a lot of money. On the other hand, hunters need money for their families, and usually they are just spectators, they don't get any economic benefits from their forest. Selling directly to customer as much as possible become a logical choice for them, no capital needed. But usually not sustainable, just like alocasia tandurusa/jecklin market last year.
The only solution for now is to educate people who living around the forest to care about the sustainability of their forest and they must get economic benefit too. We can learn from hulun hyang farmer groups (IG: @hulun_hyang) who have successfully cultivated one of protected plant: Anaphalis javanica or javanese edelweiss based on community empowerment around Mount Bromo, this will be more sustainable.
Thank you for the share Mr Riva! Your knowledge and passion cease to amaze and surprise me! We need to hang out more 😀
Thanks for covering this, it was very informative. It's definitely a pity that locals are not in the position to benefit from their natural heritage and opportunists are artificially decreasing supply by taking what they want and destroying the rest. As you say I hope more documentation occurs so that more rare and beautiful plants can be properly attributed to your country.
It’s amazing how you talk about this in such a balanced way (seeing both sides of the argument and the value in them) it’s so refreshing to hear!
Thank youu
To name, Singapore is also one of the country getting into all these exotic plants through Batam... each leaf is selling at thousand.... to the buyer, if you think you bought and wanted to sell like your seller, u won't beat them..
Excellent video! Many interconnected problems to be solved. I hope plant collectors all over the world take this seriously. The devastation of wild environments is worldwide. Thank you Sean and Bu Karen for presenting these videos.
I hundred percent agree with you, it’s so scary the way people are buying and selling these plant for so much money, and destroying our environment, I seen it also in Latin America, ..
I want you to know that I also did not know that people would take a certain specimen and destroy the rest and the environment around it just to make it even more rare and then profit from it! Thank you again for this video! I hope it will open some eyes!
Poaching is a major problem everywhere in both plants and animals. I also wish you would cover the effect on the animals and insects who rely on them. Love your channel and knowledge. I would however like to see you use a more organic pest control, we only get one world we all share.
Thank youu. I really would love to work with a biological pest control company if they are every interested in coming to Indonesia.
I noticed in one of your videos you had a problem with aphids on your Hoyas and a few plants down you had ants. The aphids attract the ants due to the sticky sweet substance they release. If you plant dill or fennel (super easy to grow from seed) near your Hoyas you will attract parasitic wasps who will take care of the aphids. When the aphids are gone the ants will leave. Nature has a way of correcting itself. Everything in nature is predator and prey, it's a matter of changing your mindset and attracting beneficial insects to create a balance. It will make your life way easier in the long rrun.
Excellent coverage!
Thank you, another really interesting and educational video.
It's great to learn from people actually living in other countries about the realities, and the motivations, and who exactly is doing what and why in terms of poaching, smuggling and other practices that are impacting people and the environment.
It's interesting that its not just foreigners with money who are poaching there, but extremely poor locals as well, a problem in other parts of the world too - how do you find ways of supporting local people to live well without harming the ecosystem around them.
Definitely supporting local sustainable horticultural practices seems part of the solution - long term benefit to the community instead of short term limited gain where the long term profits instead go to big business overseas who then profit from mass cultivating or tc of these plants. Its really sad that this obviously happens so much.
The most horrific thing though is deliberate destruction of the original habitat to drive up prices... I have no words at all for how heinous and unforgivable that is...just no words...
I really appreciate your coverage on the issue of illegal plant poaching and how it affects the native country and its ecosystem. I feel like when plant hobbyists find that they are able to acquire a rare plant that no one else has, that everyone wants or that even might go extinct soon, it can be easy for a little bit of that greed to cloud their judgement. This can make people look the other way or think "this seller probably sourced it responsibly" without considering checking first whether that seller may have a history of selling poached plants. I think that, as consumers, we should acknowledge that keeping houseplants is a luxury and that, no, we don't actually *need* that super rare plant *so* badly to the point that we're willing to cause harm to the native ecosystem. Like, you're not going to die if that last plant you're looking for goes out of stock.
As someone from Malaysia, I also appreciate your willingness to acknowledge that this is an issue with two sides to it. Illegal poaching of plants (and animals) is a huge issue here as well. However, like you said, I don't think it would be fair to wholly place the blame on the plant poachers themselves. If you factor in the cost of living and how far one US dollar can go, 1 USD could comfortably feed someone for one day in Malaysia. Many of these 'plant hunters' come from lower income backgrounds where being able to land hundreds or thousands of dollars for a rare plant is so lucrative that you'd feel foolish not to do so. Alternatively, it's sold as a 'get rich quick' scheme to people who like the idea of easy money (if you search 'pemburu tanaman hutan' you'll be able to find videos where people are happy to have found rare plants that can be sold for money). The poaching of plants on a mass scale to the point of disruption of the ecosystem is unfortunately the effect of a broken system where suppliers (both plant poachers and resellers) try to get as much money as they can to take advantage of the high demand (from plant hobbyists willing to look the other way or might not care about the implications that their short term actions might have on the native country).
I think that this video is definitely a step in the right direction. We need more education and awareness about illegal plant poaching both for suppliers and consumers. From my point of view (though agriculturalists might have more knowledge on this, since it isn't my field), we need more local education on 1. supply and demand (gives a general idea of the effect that the market can have on a delicate ecosystem), 2. means and methods to cultivate plants on a mass scale (responsibly selling plants is rarely a Get Rich Quick scheme, you'll likely need capital and time to propagate and sell on a mass scale) and 3. what we can do to go about getting plants identified and registered responsibly (local government also should help make these procedures transparent). Additionally, I'm interested in seeing how local government could help in assisting agricultural efforts and distributing that wealth to the people from lower income areas who should be receiving it. I'm not sure about Indonesia, but in Malaysia there's an emphasis placed on rapid urbanisation in the race to become a 'developed country' which often doesn't take into account the increasing financial gap for those living in rural areas. I also don't think that stimulating the economy and natural biodiversity have to be mutually exclusive.
I'm interested in learning more about the scale of plant poaching and cultivation. From my understanding, it can be generally split into 1. individuals poaching plants, 2. larger plant poaching operations (like the ones you mentioned who have their own underground contacts), 3. plant resellers who focus on selling mostly poached plants at marked up prices and 4. plant nurseries that have the facilities to propagate and sell plants on a mass scale (whether poached or not). I'm also interested in learning more about the issue sellers from overseas who intentionally purchase/hunt and then register plants from overseas, and whether they could be held accountable for this. Thanks for this video, plant poaching is an issue that is rarely discussed at the moment on TH-cam. Though there are a few other videos from well known TH-camrs discussing the issue, it's refreshing to hear an 'inside perspective' on things from a country affected by it.
Whoaaaa lots of interesting points raised here, and important questions too!
Thank you for covering this topic. As I already commented on a previous video of yours, I absolutely agree that the income of the special plants should benefit the people who live in the vicinity of these plants. I have seen a documentary about an ex-mining area in the Amazon. When the mining industry fell, the inhabitants were retrained to become protectors of their surrounding nature. They also now receive their income as a guide for nature tourists. The inhabitants are now also the protectors of their surrounding ecosystem.
What a cool story!
Thank you (and ibu Karen) for this informative videos. It frustrated (irresponsible poaching) and saddened (a messed up ecosystem) me at the same Something you can’t fight is poverty. People will do everything to support themselves and families to a better life. They are furthermore uneducated, so 1+1=2.
But, hey, as long as there are these collectors who want to pay high price for it, who cares about the the green earth and ecosystem right? 🤨
🥲
I like your presentation of both sides to this topic,well presented.
Thank youu
I accidentally hit send before I also had a chance to mention that this video was very informative. I love your channel and I didn't mean that last comment negatively
Haha cutee
Oofff, I'm extremely satisfied with this episode, I really have nothing much to add here, but I can't wait to see future episodes with all this good for earth Agendas ! Hope you can find someone who is working to bring more light into what's happening !
I hope this episode reach the right organizations who can reach out to me! Im happy to share my platform.
Thank you, Sean. I really like Ibu Karen's idea. Traceability for traded plants.
Thank you for discussing this very important matter!!
This was informative, thank you for sharing your insights on the layers involved with this important issue. I have never imported plants but have considered it many times. If I decide to in the future I will certainly be mindful of the information you have shared.
A lot of plants cultivated in Indonesia for export are actually not endemic here (rare aroids etc) but there has been some interest in local endemic plants and thats what we have to start being mindful for. Its time to grow them locally first before marketing them overseas so we can protect them.
You're so cute Shawn 😍
The issue is these hunters are "being conned" into getting the buyer what they want at a low cost and then showing off in their community and selling each bud at high price...
Hi Sean I like your shirt! Nice shirt
Thank youu
Hi Sean, I've seen so many "hoya noID" plants like "Hoya Papua noID". What does that excatly mean? Are they going to one day give those hoyas official names? Or will they be noID until someone claims it in another country?
Hmm it could mean many things… maybe it was a natural hybrid, mutation, undescribed species, or perhaps the owner or seller wasnt able to find the registered name 😅
E.g most caudex plant beware.
If you see big funny unique irregular shapes likely they're poach.
One example stephania and impatiens phengklaii, charisma.
Oh yes they were usually shaped by nature for hundreds of years. Not all but most
How can I see if the plant is cutted out of the woods or grown bei the company? When I bought my last plants, there where very big stem cuttings on the side from a very old plant, and I bought the new growing. Only saw it when I took it out of the pot at home... I am a bit worried that I was a cutting out of the woods. Baught it from the netherlands.
All cuttings come from bigger stem cuttings. I wouldnt worry about it if I were you. Also if its a plant not endemic to Indonesia its 100% safe
I would love a video that shows us exactly what to look for while looking. What should we avoid? How can we see the difference between poached vs. Cultivated? I would never want a plant from someone stealing it or destroying the environment or jungles to get it. Please please please help
I will try to document that. I actually passed by a few sellers/nurseries with a corner of freshly poached plants. But the asian part of me feel inappropriate to document it there and then
@onlyplants I understand what you are saying. I just want to make sure that I do the right thing. What are some things to look for on the online sales that show they are poached plants? How do I ask for proofs they grew it themselves/cultivated it. I don't want you having to do something you are uncomfortable with by recording it. That isn't fair for you. ❤️❤️
You could also have illegal plants with cites permit.
To be honest.
Example weird looking pachypodium...
theres also corals, sulawesi shrimps , whaite peeple bought cheap from indonesia and then they sell it HIGH overseas, and then they bad mouthing Indonesia as country where we are antagonized by international peeple
🥲
🌿💚
It's not worth it to destroy nature just to have a rare species. Better to keep nature healthy and take only a few plants, make more and have a captive population as backup.
Poaching implies plants taken illegally. I think at points in this conversation you mean legal collection versus poaching or illegal collection.
I believe people have different definitions of poaching… I guess every circumstance, environment, and species deserve their own definition. Personally, I think it is ok to take some from the wild for the purpose of studying, cultivating and commercially growing them sustainably. It is not ok to buy them and send them straight overseas - especially if the species ID is not registered yet.
Many forests here are facing deforestation, being burnt down at alarming rate. I wish there was a system where “poachers” and Botanists alike had a few weeks to sweep through that patch of forest before they were burnt. But of course I wish forests wouldn’t be cleared at all but thats not the Earth we live in 🥲
@@onlyplants I think it was very well put that there should be some sort of compromise. I especially agree with you that education and communication is important. Give a man a fish he eats for a day. Teach man to fish and eats for a lifetime. Unless he eats and sells all the fish, and then there are none left for him or anyone else! 💚🌱🙏
Almost a year and look at what is happening next
Actually havent heard much about poaching these days… maybe because demand for plants have dropped drastically anyway.
hello!, can you discuss about how to have a dialogue with our buyers, From South Kalimantan
Im afraid i dont fully understand your question😅 do DM me on @bo.tan.ist as youtube does not notify me when someone replies to my comment reply. Ill try my best to help
@@onlyplants ok,I've DM you
Thanks for relaying this important message. For the demand side, I’m wondering if there can be other identifiers for plants which may be poached and immediately sold on top of what you had mentioned about pest marks and mud stains, i.e. what about naming of plants, how can we as consumers corroborate the credibility of a seller since language and local context may work against us?
Im afraid theres no simple solution to your question. On the one hand the local economy does need exports to thrive, on the other hand the sellers here are not fully prepared to engage with an international market
I applaud the message but without ruthlessly committed enforcement on both the buyer and supply side, I don't see how environmentally motivated idealism can win over the economic reality that rarity explodes the profit potential of our natural treasures. Goodwill, common sense, and rational understanding are no match for short term greed and/or extreme poverty. I hate sounding like a defeatist but in our over populated world reverence for the diversity of nature is a luxury we just can't seem to afford. Between the freedom to destroy and the duty to preserve, the freedom to destroy seems to be the path of least resistance.
I agree with you 100%. This is not easy and clear solutions are not in sight
I block people posting such poaching plants from the wild here in TH-cam. I hate them.
I usually comment in their video to try to share my opinion kindly. Hope this will shape their mind.
I really don't like this woman, the moment she said "plandemic" she just lost all the credibility in my eyes. But I'm trying to see past that and recognize the valid parts in her arguments, even though I despise conspiracy theorists. Anyway, thank you for talking about this subject, it is definitely a difficult one. I would appreciate some more insights of how to find those traceable, reputable sellers you were both talking about. Is there a website that lists licensed Indonesian growers/sellers? Because so far we only learned that the poached plant is recognizable if you see it in person. But that is a bit too late, it will only serve as a lesson learned not to buy from that seller again.
Hello, I believe Karen meant “plantdemic” - as in pandemic where people are panic buying plants, driving up demand and prices. Maybe you have interpreted it a different way?
It would actually be smart to have a database with registered species that is legal to export after they passed sustainable commercial production process. This is usually up to government bodies or non-profit organizations to do… I will try to encourage it
She said 'plantdemic'. And her professional experience and views on plant conservation are surely valuable regardless of whether or not you personally happen to agree with her views on something unrelated, even if she did say what you assumed. Surely people can have a diversity of views on things and still be respected...
@@sunflowerhill4349 If she indeed say "plantdemic" then I was wrong. But if she did mean plandemic then no. If I say that I believe in racism or any other bigotry would you respect my opinion about plants? Conspiracy theories are destroying our democracy, I do not tolerate or support people who share them especially on big platforms on social media. But again, Sean agrees with you that she meant plantdemic, which I have never hear anyone refer to, so I most probably misinterpreted her words.
@@onlyplants If that's what indeed she said, then I'm sorry for misrepresenting her words.
"our this our that" ,yet u uncomfortable speaking Indonesian lolz
Sean with his uncomfortable Indonesian probably doing more for Indonesia than you.
😅