Oooo do a podcast or interview with Dr. Mike Israetel from Renaissance Periodization on steroids and BJJ, please? He's a brown belt and has used steroids for body building in the past so he would have a great perspective, plus he has a doctorate in exercise science so he could probably get into the details on how "gear" can affect a jiu-jitsu player over time. That would be super neat.
"In the past" lol. But yeah, he's great. He stated that's why you'll never see his name competing. Also said you're a scumbag if you do or something to that effect.
Great take on the subject. I agree. I'm fine with people taking TRT if they need it. But competing juiced to the gills is cheating IMO, and forces others to do the same to keep up.
I wonder if taking TRT is an advantage because the level of hormone is always consistent no matter what else you do - is this the same for people not on TRT? Are their hormone levels consistent when they are tired, overtrain or lack sleep?
@@cafeapaka7501of course it is. I take trt, I’m 40. They should be illegal in competition, especially at a high level. The problem is people say “I’m on trt” and that could mean 150mgs a week or 500 mgs a week plus a bunch of other stuff, or 150 a week normally but every 3 months the blast a cycle on top of it. Trt means steroids. It’s like saying were you drinking? It’s a yes or no, but there’s a difference between a beer and a bottle of jack Daniel’s. There’s no way to know without blood tests. To believe someone who’s taking steroids to be honest about how much is hilarious. Should not be allowed in competitions, especially the big ones.
@@cafeapaka7501hormone levels on TRT still follow a peak and trough. The only way to simulate normal levels is to inject every day. If someone injects less frequently, as most only do twice per week, their hormone levels will see a far greater shift than natural levels. And to the contrary, competing with low testosterone levels is both dangerous and can arguably cheating for opponents with normal levels. Not only does TRT affect your testosterone levels, but low testosterone causes inadequate red blood cell counts and osteoporosis, among a dozen other serious health problems.
Really well said…I’m about to go off topic of Jiu Jitsu and onto a Philosophy tagent, but I think more and more society deeply resents the natural human process of aging. Everywhere we go we are told either overtly or subliminally that it is better to be young than old. For women especially botox and plastic surgery, for men TRT and steroids. What’s really sad is having worked and taught in the MMA gym industry for 10 years I have been close friends with guys that could barely fit through the door frame, most of whom had addiction issues with opiods, cocaine, etc. as well as anabolics, and they would confess to me that “when I look in the mirror, I never look big enough.” I’m glad to have found a different career as a 35 year old black belt with a family, that I can swing in, get some training in at lunch time, compete casually, and get the most out of what really matters in life 🙏🏼
I’m a 46 year old brown belt and luckily my testosterone is still in the normal range. But I can’t roll more than 3 days a week. The day after it feels like I’ve been in a car wreck. I’ve never used steroids and won’t use TRT unless my doc gives it to me. But that quick recovery time looks so good when I’m hobbling around aching all over on my off days.
100 percent I can relate to that, I think the big lesson there as you get older is learning to maximize lighter intensity training so you make technical gains while doing less damage on the body. Then prioritize strength and mobility work much more than the jiu jitsu, since I started doing that my technical gains have gone up so much , my strength, and my body feels so much better.
@@israeltilk11 Great advice above from JT... one thing I would add is taking supplements like Fadogia Agrestes and Tongkat Ali really DO work and are well worth looking at before having to consider TRT. I'm 47 - been training BJJ for about 7 years now. I've been taking the above for a month - they apparently raise your testosterone naturally without causing issues with your natural hormone production. i.e. you're not pumping in exogenous hormones but encouraging your body to produce more itself. Anyhow several things: a. I can train longer and more often. I actually rolled 4 times this week. I forced myself to take a break today but I could have actually trained today as well. Don't feel any soreness in particular. b. Not to be too delicate here, morning erections started disappearing in my late 30s but they've come back! That to me is quite significant as it's completely unconscious and a pretty clear indicator of higher testosterone. Andrew Huberman talks about those supplements in several of his podcasts so don't take my bro-science word for it!
Well said brother. People often make excuses like 'I'm not long enough' or 'I'm not strong enough.' It's puzzling why so many of us limit ourselves. While it's okay to be content with our limitations as long as we're happy, we shouldn't project those limitations onto others.
I’m 60, training 25+ years in BJJ. I am not and will not use TRT. Diet over the counter supplements and hard, measured training will have to do it. I don’t know your age but you are very wise in how you think about look for technical or strategic solutions instead of thinking more power is needed to mitigate whatever problematic situations on the mat you face.
Awesome video! I have realized that at age 52, I cant train jiujitsu twice a day. Its three times a week and extra strength training and cardio. Doing it like this I will probably be able to keep training for a long time. No steroids needed :)
Hoyce Gracie showed that you can use Jiu Jitsu defeat larger opponents who do not know Jiu Jitsu. But once you are up against somebody at your same skill level in Jiu Jitsu plus steroids, then it becomes an unfair advantage
You touched on alot of great stuff. Hopefully in your interviews youll touch on how people who actually need trt are going underdiagnosed because of all these pop up doc in a box places that are just putting everyone on trt.. Covering the fact that its basically body dysmorphia, and how being on steroids is an addiction is really important and hopefully more kids will be dissuaded from using them. Theres teens on tiktok trying to glorify steroid use and its quite troubling
Nice vid, Coach. Thanks for posting. From a medical perspective, TRT is: 1. Low serum testosterone levels drawn in the morning times two. 2. Signs and symptoms consistent with testosterone deficiency. 3. No obvious alternative medical explanation, i.e. severe anemia, type two diabetes mellitus, hypothyroidism, depression, etc (although there is overlap between low T and other conditions). From an athletic point of view, all exogenous testosterone therapy is enhancement, not TRT. When a natural BJJ athlete goes hypocaloric to cut weight for a competition, isn’t sleeping well, stress at home or work, etc, serum testosterone levels begin to drop within 2 to 5 days. A BJJ athlete running exogenous testosterone, be it TRT medically, can completely control serum testosterone levels, no matter what is going on in his life. Can keep total T levels at 600, 1000, 2000, 450, anything he wants. All athletes running exogenous testosterone are enhanced from a sports point of view, even if TRT from a medical point of view. As you know, no MMA promotion allows men who need “TRT” to compete, because they don’t suffer from the natural T dips when going hypocaloric to make weight. Those days are long gone. Be well always, Coach.
Good points in the video. I am soon 54 and been into health and longevity for quite some time and the intresst accelarated with the pandemic. To me health is everything. So I play the long game with consistent habits and a lot of training but with quite some care. Steriods has no place in that approach, it is a shortcut that probably will be problem at some point. Again, good to highlight the subject!
I really like the well thought out and nuanced argument you’re making here. You’re going to change the minds of people out there who never stopped to think about the impacts of steroids in the sport.
The shortcuts point is the big one IMHO, partly because it connects to so many of the other points. As I've gotten a bit older I've developed certain habits that allow me to get on the mat as much or as little as I really have time for. A one is finding technical partners who are down to go at 100% brain power and 50% physical power. But it's also recovery stuff too, and honestly I think that's the ticket. An exercise and nutrition regimen that supports what I want to do (and yes, part of that is sleep which I just roll into nutrition) is THE game changer. Honestly, and I know that this sounds strange to many, but one of the biggest helps to my BJJ was developing T1 diabetes when I was in my late 20's. It forced me to clean up every other aspect of my life and do so without cheating on it because there really were no shortcuts. Cleaning up those areas, such as eliminating alcohol from my life and watching my diet like a hawk, has led to immeasurable expansion of my capacities to do things like recover from a harder day of BJJ. IRL, it kinda helped me eliminate or cut back pro-inflammatory stuff to an absolute minimum. When I look at people my age and they have the common complaints I realize that they're living like they're 23 when they're not. They cannot wrap their head around how I don't have the same issues as them and, really, I think the answer is that I don't live like they do and therefore I have a much lower level of baseline inflammation to deal with. Mix that with routines designed to promote recovery and it works quite, quite well. My parents have done this, without really planning it, for their entire lives and now that they're in their 80's they are immeasurably better off than most of their friends because they laid the groundwork for healthier aging decades ago. The other thing about 'roids, IMHO, is that they seem to really alter people's personalities and I've never seen that work out for the better. People who were really nice and get deep into 'roids don't just become aggressive like a teenager, they become hyper aggressive like a meth head. It's my personal opinion that BJJ is one of those things you can do well into advanced age (partly because I've seen this) but that this requires a mindset starting out that lays the groundwork for such a thing. Steroids don't fall into that "useful" category unless being used medicinally for a legit purpose such as major injury recovery, like maybe a car accident, under supervision of medical professionals.
Steroids is not just about getting bigger/stronger. It also improves recovery time and therefore allows you to increase training frequency, duration, and intensity.
At some point the economic factor needs to be addressed. Even if steroids are allowed in a competition, there is a difference between the guy who can afford spending $10k a month on a doctor checking his blood levels and giving him steroids based on his DNA in a controlled environment of the top of the line stuff versus a guy who's spending $100 a month getting his steroids from another guy at the gym who sells him pills out of a gym bag that may or may not be actual steroids. In a way it allows guys to get to the top to afford to spend like that and stay there for as long as they want but also pull the ladder up behind them and make it harder for the next guy to get to that point at all.
Side note - there should be more focus on training relaxed , so that you just don’t get as wiped out (and you learn better relaxed ). Once you learn to train super relaxed, the next day is not such a plight of aches and pains
Absolutely it’s crazy how many people say they can only train 2 times a week without it, it’s like maybe you are going too hard lol. That’s the point you have to moderate intensity, and focus on technique
100% and talk about young kids being put on steroids with him and the long term damage to their hpta. Would be good for our teens comp team to hear and balance out the pro steroid info they are always hearing
It’s hard I would imagine to look at parents and say “Enroll your kid in my class and between the training and drugs they will be able to defend themselves”
Love this video. Really appreciate it. I am glad that some high level BJJ athletes do not condone use of steroids. The work you put in should be the only factor to determine the winner once you add steroids there will always be doubt about whether it was skill and dedication alone that brought those athletes to where they are.
For sure it’s annoying knowing the difference too, there is so many world class guys that are not know because they lost close matches to super steroid freaks. Everyone knows the famous person who won but don’t know the guy who lost by one advantage to them who is in all reality way better.
This is such an important topic. I don't compete anymore because of the rampant use of PEDS. Lots of hard work goes into this self-defense only to be nullified by people on roids/EPO. We must set an example for our children.
job interview and weight cheating analogy was so on point encouraging meteoroids use should never be okay. i will ruin young generations for sure. Subscribed!
This is a really cool way to look at things. Thanks for the vid. I love the 100-300 thing. It made me giggle and made me think of people who really have no idea what drugs are and they want to try. "erm Mr dealer man, could I get, one drugs please." 😂😂😂
The point about the benefits of steroid use in terms of recovery, is imo the biggest advantage of taking steroids, the ability to train hard everyday and recover fast, its such a big advantage. I understand why some people use things like hgh to repair bad injuries and get themselves back to doing what they love, but in general people who do peds, just don't like loosing. I'm a big marcelo garcia and roger gracie fan, the best natty grapplers of all time!
You cannot train everyday with intensity unless you are running a heavy cycle. Your body and especially your nervous system still have to recover. Eddie Hall used to say that even when he was juiced out of his mind he would require a week's rest between heavy deadlift sessions. That being said steroids do give a significant edge.
John, thanks for this video. I’m curious as to your thoughts on TRT. I have a teammate on so much TRT that he is not capable of managing his body odor. He’s over doing the TRT. I don’t know his numbers. But if anyone in our gym mentions his name, all they end up taking about is his consumption of copious amounts of TRT. The guy is purple with a back full of acne.
Great to hear a high profile person speaking on this. I fear that lack of money in the sport may be the biggest driver for steroids. Competition pay is low so professionals have to recover quicker to compete more often in order to make money/build their name. Casuals see the top guys on gear and follow suit. Big organizations need to get more behind the exciting, clean athletes. Sad thing is that guys running the big organizations are on gear themselves and don't seem to care. Athletes that have entertaining styles and are willing to take voluntary tests like Mikey need more backing. Others like Tackett brothers and Ruotolos brothers (assumed clean) can win big shows in exciting fashion, while natural.
It’s has nothing to do with money. The majority of these tournaments/matches have ZERO cash prize There are steroid abusers that only compete in the gi and in the ibjjf circuit. The IBJJF only pay at worlds and invitationals to the winner of the adult black belt divisions. 99% of their opens, have no cash prize yet people will still take steroids and enter to win these tournaments It’s the desire to win that makes them want to cheat, this is their life, a lot of them honesty don’t have a life outside of jiu jitsu competitions, they will do whatever it takes to get their hand raised regardless of the prize
I'm 50 with 3 knee surgeries. I really don't want to play butterfly guard because it hurts when my shin gets compressed. Is this a "limiting belief"? The pain is real.
I agree with most of your points and still think we should just continue on and don’t test people. My main reason being that adding in testing just raises the barrier to competition for those people who can’t beat or cheat past the tests. Only people who can take gear and still beat tests would be able to take the gear, as opposed to almost anyone. Even in the UFC people found ways to beat USADA, and sport jiu jitsu doesn’t have the money or the resources to pay for something like that anyway.
I am a 40-year-old blue belt. A couple years ago I was diagnosed with low testosterone. I have started taking trt from my doctor to get me back to healthy levels. Even just being at a healthy level I feel like Superman. I could only imagine if I really abused testosterone what I would feel like. I don't even want to go there
Yeah I can’t imagine, I’m 37 and definitely don’t have energy like when I was 20 I can only imagine being a 17 year old on massive trt and steroids lol.
I’m 34, I do abuse testosterone . I fuking love it . I’m a black belt but I don’t compete professionally I do local tournaments for fun . I am a fire fighter and father family man. High testosterone lets me train hard and save lives while having energy to run around with my kids .
@@JonThomasBJJyou look like you maintain a plant based diet. Generally people dont utilize dietary strategies that maximize energy production.. Most people just dont want to ferment their foods, eat more nutrition, or remove foods that may be encouraging inflammation which essentially drains the body. I do these things and have more energy than i ever did in my 20s, not to mention how it helps my mood and dealing with social stress. Alot of people jump to steroids rather than utilize sustainable lifestyle choices. (Im 37 too)
100%... I have a very similar story, even down to the blue belt, but I'm 53! I feel great, look healthy, and love it. That being said, my hair is going to shit and it's tough for me to roll back-to-back days. 1,000mg every 8 weeks is the sweet spot for me.
Great video, a lot of people arnt informed on the long term effects and impact. We don’t really know much because it’s relatively new technology. Your right to try and amplify natural methods, ultimately it will help you live longer
I don’t take anything, but I think regular levels of trt at a certain age is fine, rhe guys taking juice are taking 3-4 different things and High doses
im 34 now and I train at a prominent gym with famous ufc fighters, less known pros, and hungry amateurs. I don't compete anymore. Never done steroids. Real tempting bc the older i get the more injury prone I am. tons of guys on it in the gym. Even had it offered to me. How much longer can I hold out?!
All great points. I absolutely think steroids are a negative influence on the bjj community and organizations need to test and enforce punishments. Only exception (maybe) would be trt for older athletes with a dr prescription within normal levels….
I'm 46 and many in my gym are on trt. I've thought about it and got tested, but it's normal, so I'm just going to continue working through old man BJJ and just know that my technique needs to be more dialed than people around me. I"m okay with that.
I was a big defender of hard anti doping policies but Clarence Kennedy's video "why I'm against anti doping" kind of changed my mind. I highly recommend it
Great video. I compete in the masters division. I have been on try, but that's because my levels were under 200. My 1st black belt competition was this past Pans. I got handled as expected, but my opponent was strongest I ever felt. It was far from natural. Lol. I don't think steroids will ever leave competition bjj, especially at masters division. No one really cares other than the adult divisions.
The martial art was supposed to be for beating bigger people. The sport is about besting somebody in a similar weigjt class for the most part so steroids doesn't necessarily go against that. I think steroids are lame though and they should just have natty and roided divisions I guess.
Everyone feels the sport progressed. Maybe in terms of popularity and to some degree technical evolution (at the cost of some things), but a lot of culture change in this sport has moved us backwards.
I didnt realize it was so rampant. Learning BJJ would be cool but I dont want some juicehead cranking on my neck and joints. Ive heard too many stories of guys getting bad neck issues from training. thats a hard pass for me.
The real problem is that there is no great way to prevent steroid use. Testing is expensive and advancements in it are always behind the drug advancement. Also, it doesn't do a good job at detecting micro dosing. When you can't enforce the rules, it creates a huge incentive to use peds just to even the playing field. What is really EASY to do though is stop dehydrating and then rehydrating to compete at a higher weight than than the weight class limits, but we don't even think of doing that.
I think is really important to speak up about this. Using steroids is simply cheating there's no other way oround it. I'm a 32 years old black belt and from my early 20's i've been competing against steroids users i have lost in multiple ocassions but I have gained a mental strength that my opponents lack, and after a couple of years this is what makes the difference.
Fact is, steroids are a tremendous recovery and strength advantage, even at trt levels. Removing the feedback loop for bad behavior is honestly a good take. It's the 24/7 muscle protein synthesis and recovery injection. Like you said, no judgment, and I honestly may use when I'm older. But it is what it is.
I like your jiu jitsu content, but I’m an avid amateur endocrinologist, and I think your information is a bit off, as well as your value judgments on some elements that you discussed. Just my friendly two cents, maybe I’m wrong… but maybe I’ve studied the topic deeply, and see things a little differently because of that. All the best
I’m just tired of these guys acting like steroids aren’t SIGNIFICANTLY helping them. Body building is the same, they say “oh you still have to put in the work” like that means anything regarding the advantages it’s giving you. Everyone is putting in the work
Its weird that they use steroids in bjj. I look at it like a chess match in a way & using steroids (i'd argue) is like using an engine in chess & the fact they allow that; kind of defeats the purpose of that match when its supposed to be based on the persons individual skill
If we dont have money for testing all athletes. lets have two separate categories "natrual" and "juice" why is that even difficult? dont say they dont have money for that. at least big events they sell off. We can at least test everyone who steps on the podium. and if they get caught, their medals can be taken away.
Yeah this is definitely true, I guess the question is some of the long term negatives that might come from long term use, and also whether or not they keep the dosage to reasonable levels. I think it’s worth discussing with a couple experts in a podcast.
Steroid use in BJJ just shows how much EGO is at play. Also, the idea of technique beating strength is really only applicable when the bigger opponent isn’t that knowable in BJJ or the skill difference is large like two belt levels. Gordon Ryan even said the reason he did steroids because he felt OVERPOWERED in matches, despite having better technique. Once he matched their power now he’s unbeatable. Lot of steroid guys at my gym and honestly it’s getting discouraging to roll with them. It’s so obvious who’s on it and who’s not.
This is the whole point I made this video. It’s obviously true and a huge advantage, but for example look at Lucas Lepri vs Kaynan Duarte, or Lachlan vs Muhammad Aly, these are heavyweight world champion and ADCC champion black belts, losing to guys who are in the lightweight division. That is irrefutable proof that it is possible. Who knows what is possible in the future, 20 years of technical evolution someone from the future rolling today might all current heavyweights because of technique that hasn’t even been invented yet. That’s not to say it’s not a huge advantage but you can’t have that kind of limiting belief because it will hinder your belief in what you are capable of.
This is the whole point I made this video. It’s obviously true and a huge advantage, but for example look at Lucas Lepri vs Kaynan Duarte, or Lachlan vs Muhammad Aly, these are heavyweight world champion and ADCC champion black belts, losing to guys who are in the lightweight division. That is irrefutable proof that it is possible. Who knows what is possible in the future, 20 years of technical evolution someone from the future rolling today might all current heavyweights because of technique that hasn’t even been invented yet. That’s not to say it’s not a huge advantage but you can’t have that kind of limiting belief because it will hinder your belief in what you are capable of.
@@JonThomasBJJ I’m stuck hard in that limited belief. Imagine being a 150lb skinny blue belt who doesn’t do any strength training, everyday having to spar with juiced up blues and purples 50lbs heavier. It sucks. I’m not a black belt with that technique difference. Not quitting but damn these guys. I swear this hobby tends to weed out smaller people
@Arcadianx98 take up weight training and add 20 pounds of muscle. It's possible to gain that muscle naturally in 2 or three years. Weight training is essential to Jiu-jitsu.
@@Arcadianx98still sucks as a Blackbelt rolling with much bigger and aggressive guys. It still takes a toll on your body. I was that blue belt once though dude, don’t sweat it just stay as injury free as you can enjoy training
Hello Jon. I am 35 yo and started doing BJJ 6 months ago. Love your content. I have been using steroids for the past two months after years of educating myself on the topic. I obviously feel the advantage but I think as you said there is a lot of nuance. Firstly it allowed me from barely being able to survive two trainings a week to making it through three plus strength training sessions. Also it allowed me to slow down on the matt, focus on proper defense and turn down the white belt panic a lot. I am honest about my use with anyone who asks, I do not abuse strength on the mat and I keep my diet clean, sleep optimized while I also try to stretch and go to sauna every second day. My choice was motivated by wanting to continue strength training and being able to handle BJJ regularly on top of that without being constantly destroyed, sore and sleepy. I would never advise people to hop on gear especially young guys but I sincerely think that there is a place for people like me in the sport.PS If you banned everything and started testing the problem would change to who can clean up the quickest before competition and who can risk it with the most exotic and hard to detect compounds.
I really dislike steroids, but I don't feel like the appeal of BJJ being small people beating larger opponents is relevant at all. That applies when the larger opponent doesn't know BJJ, or at least they are significantly worse at it than the smaller one. Imagine if Royce Gracie's opponents in UFC 1-4 also were BJJ black belts. People use steroids in BJJ to get a physical advantage over people who are at their own belt level.
This is obviously incorrect, Kaynan Duarte is a World Champion black belt and ADCC champion, he lost to Lucas Lepri and Lachlan Giles who were both lightweights. There is countless other examples of very high level black belts losing to smaller non steroided people. It’s not just a small person can only beat an unskilled person but even at very high levels. Of course no one is saying strength isn’t a huge advantage it is, the point is through developing higher and higher level techniques a lot can be accomplished. This mindset here is specifically what I’m referring to when I talk about limiting beliefs.
@@JonThomasBJJ I'm sorry, but exactly which part of what I said was "obviously incorrect"? It's not a rhetorical question, I actually don't understand. Aren't you just pointing out that sports aren't deterministic here? There's a reason betting exists. Yes, there are upsets, there are skill differences within belt ranks, there are differences in specialities, there are counters, there are a thousand factors in play. Should I start listing examples of huge people destroying smaller opponents of higher belts in a matter of seconds? What's the point of that? Put two people of equal skill up against each other where one is roided and the other isn't. I know where I would put my money. I would put it on the cheater. That is the only obvious thing in this conversation. Also, why are you using me as an example of "limiting beliefs"? I'm not limiting myself just because I understand WHY people cheat. I roll against these people all the time, and I evaluate what mistakes I made if they crush me, the same as I do with non-cheaters. And of course I can catch them out if I see one of their mistakes and capitalize on it. That doesn't change much though. The competitors at the tippy top of the sports are VERY dedicated and hungry to win. They don't want to win ONCE because BJJ is so amazing and they could even catch a juiced up Gordon Ryan in the upset of the century. They want to win over and over again. They have the choice between betting on upset after upset after upset, or leveling the playing field by cheating vs cheaters. The people taking the moral high ground and claiming to be natty etc. are doing a great thing, clearly. The roiding culture is disgusting and many of these roiders are influencers. They are corrupting the mind of the youth, undoubtedly, I am pretty sure we'd agree on that. But juicing for the sake of for example trying to compete with Gordon Ryan's win streak, is nothing but completely and utterly understandable. Doesn't mean it's ethical. Btw, "developing higher and higher skills, a lot can be accomplished". Yes, of course. The problem is that the roiders are also developing higher and higher skills in addition to roiding. They are probably doing so at a high rate than the others too, because winning often at a high level opens more doors for spending more time on the mats, even just thinking economically. Gordon Ryan is juiced AF, but it's not like his technique isn't at an astronomical level. You're responding as if I'm blackpilled about BJJ competition or something. Steroids is bad. It's cheating and toxic in a thousand ways. My point was that acting like cheating in BJJ is special compared to other sports because "you can just get better skills instead and beat the larger opponents that way instead" just comes off naive as hell, because it implies that either roided people are inherently less technically skilled, or you should bet on repeated upsets.
I would say if youre redlining your body and dont have hormonal capacity to recover even with proper diet and sleep you need to taper up the gear to allow you to train to your training frequency. Also youre wrong on diet and sleep you absolutely need to still be on point unless youre a genetic phenom like ronnie coleman. Otherwise you can get away with a little more on gear but you cant be sloppy.
You can be big and strong and roided out and still have skill. These are bonuses. Steroids are illegal and should be seperated. Using roids as a short cut to over ride bad or mid technique is ehh.
WE have caused this ourselves by how we treat the athletes. Athletes, especially in MMA, are sold to us as products. After they age out of their prime and/or enter a losing streak or become more injury-prone as they age, everyone, including promotors and the audience, discards them like trash. Athletes want to delay the inevitable for as long as humanely possible by steroids, because they never finished school, have very limited carreer prospects elsewhere and don't know any other life. Let's be real, half the pros we see, in MMA or BJJ, can't even teach to save their life - because that's a different skill. It's always been like this in many sports, including martial arts, but MMA is where the impact of commodifying athletes is more visible for everyone to see, meanwhile BJJ as a subculture, while more honest about it, also seems reluctact to reflect on how we treat one another or implement changes. Steroids are bad but they are the direct result of how we commodify and objectify athletes for our own entertainment, commenting on their short-comings, etc., be it some random blue belt judging you for your appearance or a person who can't punch nor grapple judging Mackenzie Dern for losing by decision. The saddest part is, unlike in MMA, a large precentage of the BJJ audience actually trains the sport so we should know how hard it is to get good at it let alone get to the elite level. We should know better but we're acting exactly the same if not far worse - for lower pay, too.
The reality is performance enhancing drugs have infiltrated almost all sports - we need to come to terms with it - Yes technique will overcome most untrained individuals but weight, strength plus technique is a powerful combination. In general, proper strength training without PEDs will go a long way in leveling the playing field if your technique is better than most. Peds without proper nutrition and resistance training will do very little to overcome very good technique. I find some BJJ, Grapplers and Percussive Martial artists who are hobbyists and willing to take Peds as a shortcut don't do enough real work to improve their technique.I would forget what others are doing as unfair as it is and focus on your performance, but I get it, it leaves a bad taste in our mouths when someone is getting an edge through pharmaceuticals. Don't give too much credit to Peds as not everyone responds favorably and the risks are many, including cancer, high blood pressure and even myocardial infarction. Very few are hyper responders, most will need to combine proper exercise, nutrition and sleep plus dedication to improving their art to gain results and still need regular blood work to ensure good overall health - overall not worth the risk long term
Isn't life also unfair though what about IQ difference or genetic differences? What if one person has a more supportive family or can afford a personal trainer. As a community we're good at dealings with hardware issues like sex and weight, but bad at dealing with software issues like above such as IQ.
The reality is steroids are in our sport. An amateur might think to enter masters divisions to make competing easier but there’s an even higher prevalence because of the naturally lower hormone levels.
Dr. prescribed TRT is not roids. Abusing and overusing the T prescription is when it can be considered roids, and of course all the "gear"like Tren, etc. Problem is, our modern food and environment has drastically reduced the baseline T levels of men compared to previous generations. This is fact. And I honestly don't know how you cleanup the way food is grown for billions of people, and remove plastics from our environment.
Personally I agree with just about everything in this video and I feel very hurt by the rampant steroid usage in jiu jitsu. Personally I have never taken steroids and the only things I take are dietary supplements in Pine Bark extract and Spike support or multivitamins. But steroid usage in jiu jitsu really hurts the sport since I feel like it takes away from the legitimacy of the sport and makes is more about strength. I'm only 5 foot 6 and close to 135 pounds so I am not really the biggest guy in the room most times so I have to really rely on technique but steroids give an unfair advantage and are really just cheating. I feel like Jimmy Stewart in Mr Smith goes to Washington since at one point I had this very positive view of the people at the top of the world of Jiu Jitsu ,but now I feel like Mr Smith walking back to the Lincoln memorial with the dimmed lighting since my perception has changed.
I’ve been sitting out of bjj for months now bc some huge roided out dude wrenched hard on my underhook (see Orlando Sanchez grappling Sean Strickland). So fuckin pissed
Not trying to blame you but you need to understand how to have a powerful underhook that can't get Sanchez'd but also just know your training partner i haven't gotten hurt yet so I roll with everyone but the moment I do I'm being very picky with my training partners
@@dirtygeazer9266 Even comp classes don’t do dirty shit like that. In comp, fine, but we’re literally TRAINING. Injuries will happen but you can’t be going in there with the intent to injure
The situarion is too far gone. Training grappling hard everyday takes a massive tool in the body, so the temptation is way too big. Not only for the titles, but also not feeling in pain like shit. Gordon Ryan will very probably die before he is 50, I believe he already accepted that and it is fine with the glory.
Honestly I don't care. Jujitsu is self defense first before sport. And some competition dont have weight classes. Edge you would get with PEs is stamina. Which doesn't count for much when your opponent is much more skilled than you.
I judge people who use steroids! Why play like you are not? You do judge by nature. Most of the time it is not my business if they use steroids, but let's be honest, they deserve judgment.
Yeah certainly in the sport when they are bullying others with it, but I guess if they aren’t fighting other people or just use it because they are older and feel they want it for the personal life. It’s not for me but I don’t judge that in the same way as a competitor cheating vs another
@@JonThomasBJJI am 60. I don't use steroids or T, cuz why bother. But, it is human nature to make a judgement good, bad, or don't care. This judgement is still made. If juicing in a sports, it is cheating. Simply. Keep doing good stuff. 👍
Why 50, i'm in my 30s and could compete as a "female" powerlifter in the Olympics with how sh-t my levels are. Guys are in their 30s with levels under 200, why is that?
@@badxradxandy Why is your T so low dude? If your T is this low then that would obviously be the exception but too many guys are claiming low T in there 20s and 30s when they are in there 400s so they can get an extra edge.
@@jerryh2954 I gotta inject test directly into my balls just to counteract all the feminizing hormones from seed oils, microplastics, birth control and SSRIs in the tap water.
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“A culture of lying” is a pretty good description for all Brazilian old school Jiu Jitsu, all the fake humility
I never left my ego at the door … I kept it quietly tucked away in my Gi, as I suppose many do. 😏
Oooo do a podcast or interview with Dr. Mike Israetel from Renaissance Periodization on steroids and BJJ, please? He's a brown belt and has used steroids for body building in the past so he would have a great perspective, plus he has a doctorate in exercise science so he could probably get into the details on how "gear" can affect a jiu-jitsu player over time. That would be super neat.
I think he died
@@Normal6755 yeah definitly th-cam.com/video/xilmx9mtKyw/w-d-xo.htmlsi=aLV54Uj26ob8aeyb
I second this idea!
"In the past" lol. But yeah, he's great. He stated that's why you'll never see his name competing. Also said you're a scumbag if you do or something to that effect.
He is still on gear
Great take on the subject. I agree. I'm fine with people taking TRT if they need it. But competing juiced to the gills is cheating IMO, and forces others to do the same to keep up.
I wonder if taking TRT is an advantage because the level of hormone is always consistent no matter what else you do - is this the same for people not on TRT? Are their hormone levels consistent when they are tired, overtrain or lack sleep?
@@cafeapaka7501of course it is. I take trt, I’m 40. They should be illegal in competition, especially at a high level. The problem is people say “I’m on trt” and that could mean 150mgs a week or 500 mgs a week plus a bunch of other stuff, or 150 a week normally but every 3 months the blast a cycle on top of it. Trt means steroids. It’s like saying were you drinking? It’s a yes or no, but there’s a difference between a beer and a bottle of jack Daniel’s. There’s no way to know without blood tests. To believe someone who’s taking steroids to be honest about how much is hilarious. Should not be allowed in competitions, especially the big ones.
@@cafeapaka7501hormone levels on TRT still follow a peak and trough. The only way to simulate normal levels is to inject every day. If someone injects less frequently, as most only do twice per week, their hormone levels will see a far greater shift than natural levels.
And to the contrary, competing with low testosterone levels is both dangerous and can arguably cheating for opponents with normal levels. Not only does TRT affect your testosterone levels, but low testosterone causes inadequate red blood cell counts and osteoporosis, among a dozen other serious health problems.
Yeah, athletes under 35 don't need TRT.
@@cafeapaka7501Taking trt would still definitely be cheating
Really well said…I’m about to go off topic of Jiu Jitsu and onto a Philosophy tagent, but I think more and more society deeply resents the natural human process of aging. Everywhere we go we are told either overtly or subliminally that it is better to be young than old. For women especially botox and plastic surgery, for men TRT and steroids. What’s really sad is having worked and taught in the MMA gym industry for 10 years I have been close friends with guys that could barely fit through the door frame, most of whom had addiction issues with opiods, cocaine, etc. as well as anabolics, and they would confess to me that “when I look in the mirror, I never look big enough.”
I’m glad to have found a different career as a 35 year old black belt with a family, that I can swing in, get some training in at lunch time, compete casually, and get the most out of what really matters in life 🙏🏼
I’m a 46 year old brown belt and luckily my testosterone is still in the normal range. But I can’t roll more than 3 days a week. The day after it feels like I’ve been in a car wreck. I’ve never used steroids and won’t use TRT unless my doc gives it to me. But that quick recovery time looks so good when I’m hobbling around aching all over on my off days.
100 percent I can relate to that, I think the big lesson there as you get older is learning to maximize lighter intensity training so you make technical gains while doing less damage on the body. Then prioritize strength and mobility work much more than the jiu jitsu, since I started doing that my technical gains have gone up so much , my strength, and my body feels so much better.
@@JonThomasBJJGreat advice! Your channel is awesome. I have learned so much about passing from your videos.
@@israeltilk11 Great advice above from JT... one thing I would add is taking supplements like Fadogia Agrestes and Tongkat Ali really DO work and are well worth looking at before having to consider TRT. I'm 47 - been training BJJ for about 7 years now. I've been taking the above for a month - they apparently raise your testosterone naturally without causing issues with your natural hormone production. i.e. you're not pumping in exogenous hormones but encouraging your body to produce more itself. Anyhow several things:
a. I can train longer and more often. I actually rolled 4 times this week. I forced myself to take a break today but I could have actually trained today as well. Don't feel any soreness in particular.
b. Not to be too delicate here, morning erections started disappearing in my late 30s but they've come back! That to me is quite significant as it's completely unconscious and a pretty clear indicator of higher testosterone.
Andrew Huberman talks about those supplements in several of his podcasts so don't take my bro-science word for it!
Dang brother I’m 50 and feel the same exact way 👍🏽
Same here !!! Exactly that 🙏🙏🙏💪💪💪
Your first point is so solid. Technique beats strength. also, Im juiced to the gills.
Hahaha technique and strength is a powerful combo for sure
what cocktail you would recomend?
@@kaikkimoi Jack and Jack. Then some coke.
Test and HGh is all you need . Don’t touch any other steroid . Just raise the dose on test and HGH
@@JonThomasBJJ I mean this was hypothetical lmao, but people took me seriously. Im not actually juiced.
Well said brother.
People often make excuses like 'I'm not long enough' or 'I'm not strong enough.' It's puzzling why so many of us limit ourselves. While it's okay to be content with our limitations as long as we're happy, we shouldn't project those limitations onto others.
I’m 60, training 25+ years in BJJ. I am not and will not use TRT. Diet over the counter supplements and hard, measured training will have to do it. I don’t know your age but you are very wise in how you think about look for technical or strategic solutions instead of thinking more power is needed to mitigate whatever problematic situations on the mat you face.
Why not use medical TRT if you are 60 ?
Awesome video! I have realized that at age 52, I cant train jiujitsu twice a day. Its three times a week and extra strength training and cardio. Doing it like this I will probably be able to keep training for a long time. No steroids needed :)
Hoyce Gracie showed that you can use Jiu Jitsu defeat larger opponents who do not know Jiu Jitsu.
But once you are up against somebody at your same skill level in Jiu Jitsu plus steroids, then it becomes an unfair advantage
Gracie wasn't natural when he competed in ufc
Royce*
You touched on alot of great stuff.
Hopefully in your interviews youll touch on how people who actually need trt are going underdiagnosed because of all these pop up doc in a box places that are just putting everyone on trt..
Covering the fact that its basically body dysmorphia, and how being on steroids is an addiction is really important and hopefully more kids will be dissuaded from using them.
Theres teens on tiktok trying to glorify steroid use and its quite troubling
Nice vid, Coach. Thanks for posting.
From a medical perspective, TRT is:
1. Low serum testosterone levels drawn in the morning times two.
2. Signs and symptoms consistent with testosterone deficiency.
3. No obvious alternative medical explanation, i.e. severe anemia, type two diabetes mellitus, hypothyroidism, depression, etc (although there is overlap between low T and other conditions).
From an athletic point of view, all exogenous testosterone therapy is enhancement, not TRT.
When a natural BJJ athlete goes hypocaloric to cut weight for a competition, isn’t sleeping well, stress at home or work, etc, serum testosterone levels begin to drop within 2 to 5 days.
A BJJ athlete running exogenous testosterone, be it TRT medically, can completely control serum testosterone levels, no matter what is going on in his life.
Can keep total T levels at 600, 1000, 2000, 450, anything he wants.
All athletes running exogenous testosterone are enhanced from a sports point of view, even if TRT from a medical point of view.
As you know, no MMA promotion allows men who need “TRT” to compete, because they don’t suffer from the natural T dips when going hypocaloric to make weight.
Those days are long gone.
Be well always, Coach.
Great video Jon. As a 135lb purple belt, videos like this are great to hear 🙏
Bulk up brother.
Happy to hear it buddy! I think it’s important people fight back and share their thoughts. It helps change the culture
Good points in the video. I am soon 54 and been into health and longevity for quite some time and the intresst accelarated with the pandemic.
To me health is everything. So I play the long game with consistent habits and a lot of training but with quite some care.
Steriods has no place in that approach, it is a shortcut that probably will be problem at some point. Again, good to highlight the subject!
I really like the well thought out and nuanced argument you’re making here. You’re going to change the minds of people out there who never stopped to think about the impacts of steroids in the sport.
Hope so, I think as we let the culture shift that way people just accept it. Its becomes almost celebrated at this point by a lot of people.
Great video! This is a very important message that needs to be spread
This was a great take. I look forward to listening to a podcast regarding this subject.
Thanks buddy will try to find a few people to discuss
The shortcuts point is the big one IMHO, partly because it connects to so many of the other points.
As I've gotten a bit older I've developed certain habits that allow me to get on the mat as much or as little as I really have time for. A one is finding technical partners who are down to go at 100% brain power and 50% physical power. But it's also recovery stuff too, and honestly I think that's the ticket. An exercise and nutrition regimen that supports what I want to do (and yes, part of that is sleep which I just roll into nutrition) is THE game changer.
Honestly, and I know that this sounds strange to many, but one of the biggest helps to my BJJ was developing T1 diabetes when I was in my late 20's. It forced me to clean up every other aspect of my life and do so without cheating on it because there really were no shortcuts. Cleaning up those areas, such as eliminating alcohol from my life and watching my diet like a hawk, has led to immeasurable expansion of my capacities to do things like recover from a harder day of BJJ. IRL, it kinda helped me eliminate or cut back pro-inflammatory stuff to an absolute minimum.
When I look at people my age and they have the common complaints I realize that they're living like they're 23 when they're not. They cannot wrap their head around how I don't have the same issues as them and, really, I think the answer is that I don't live like they do and therefore I have a much lower level of baseline inflammation to deal with. Mix that with routines designed to promote recovery and it works quite, quite well.
My parents have done this, without really planning it, for their entire lives and now that they're in their 80's they are immeasurably better off than most of their friends because they laid the groundwork for healthier aging decades ago.
The other thing about 'roids, IMHO, is that they seem to really alter people's personalities and I've never seen that work out for the better. People who were really nice and get deep into 'roids don't just become aggressive like a teenager, they become hyper aggressive like a meth head.
It's my personal opinion that BJJ is one of those things you can do well into advanced age (partly because I've seen this) but that this requires a mindset starting out that lays the groundwork for such a thing. Steroids don't fall into that "useful" category unless being used medicinally for a legit purpose such as major injury recovery, like maybe a car accident, under supervision of medical professionals.
Your Monday to Wednesday example is perfect. Feeling like shht absolutely affects the training process.
100 percent people act like it doesnt change how hard training is.
There's a study where juiced with no lifting put on more muscle than natural with lifting?
The “losing out on a job opportunity to someone who lied on their resume” analogy should make a lot of people feel guilty.
Steroids is not just about getting bigger/stronger. It also improves recovery time and therefore allows you to increase training frequency, duration, and intensity.
At some point the economic factor needs to be addressed. Even if steroids are allowed in a competition, there is a difference between the guy who can afford spending $10k a month on a doctor checking his blood levels and giving him steroids based on his DNA in a controlled environment of the top of the line stuff versus a guy who's spending $100 a month getting his steroids from another guy at the gym who sells him pills out of a gym bag that may or may not be actual steroids. In a way it allows guys to get to the top to afford to spend like that and stay there for as long as they want but also pull the ladder up behind them and make it harder for the next guy to get to that point at all.
Side note - there should be more focus on training relaxed , so that you just don’t get as wiped out (and you learn better relaxed ). Once you learn to train super relaxed, the next day is not such a plight of aches and pains
Absolutely it’s crazy how many people say they can only train 2 times a week without it, it’s like maybe you are going too hard lol. That’s the point you have to moderate intensity, and focus on technique
Podcast with More Plates More Dates!
Haha that would be super fun
100% and talk about young kids being put on steroids with him and the long term damage to their hpta. Would be good for our teens comp team to hear and balance out the pro steroid info they are always hearing
Great thoughts, thanks
It’s hard I would imagine to look at parents and say “Enroll your kid in my class and between the training and drugs they will be able to defend themselves”
Love this video. Really appreciate it. I am glad that some high level BJJ athletes do not condone use of steroids. The work you put in should be the only factor to determine the winner once you add steroids there will always be doubt about whether it was skill and dedication alone that brought those athletes to where they are.
For sure it’s annoying knowing the difference too, there is so many world class guys that are not know because they lost close matches to super steroid freaks. Everyone knows the famous person who won but don’t know the guy who lost by one advantage to them who is in all reality way better.
@@JonThomasBJJI saw you at the Europeans, and I think we received steroids via osmosis in that humid warm up area 🤣
This is such an important topic. I don't compete anymore because of the rampant use of PEDS. Lots of hard work goes into this self-defense only to be nullified by people on roids/EPO. We must set an example for our children.
job interview and weight cheating analogy was so on point encouraging meteoroids use should never be okay. i will ruin young generations for sure. Subscribed!
This is a really cool way to look at things. Thanks for the vid. I love the 100-300 thing. It made me giggle and made me think of people who really have no idea what drugs are and they want to try. "erm Mr dealer man, could I get, one drugs please." 😂😂😂
"100 Bro Units". 🤙
The only currency that matters
The point about the benefits of steroid use in terms of recovery, is imo the biggest advantage of taking steroids, the ability to train hard everyday and recover fast, its such a big advantage. I understand why some people use things like hgh to repair bad injuries and get themselves back to doing what they love, but in general people who do peds, just don't like loosing. I'm a big marcelo garcia and roger gracie fan, the best natty grapplers of all time!
You cannot train everyday with intensity unless you are running a heavy cycle. Your body and especially your nervous system still have to recover. Eddie Hall used to say that even when he was juiced out of his mind he would require a week's rest between heavy deadlift sessions. That being said steroids do give a significant edge.
John, thanks for this video. I’m curious as to your thoughts on TRT. I have a teammate on so much TRT that he is not capable of managing his body odor. He’s over doing the TRT. I don’t know his numbers. But if anyone in our gym mentions his name, all they end up taking about is his consumption of copious amounts of TRT. The guy is purple with a back full of acne.
When his cystic zits pop during a roll he's basically legally greasing
Great to hear a high profile person speaking on this. I fear that lack of money in the sport may be the biggest driver for steroids. Competition pay is low so professionals have to recover quicker to compete more often in order to make money/build their name. Casuals see the top guys on gear and follow suit. Big organizations need to get more behind the exciting, clean athletes. Sad thing is that guys running the big organizations are on gear themselves and don't seem to care. Athletes that have entertaining styles and are willing to take voluntary tests like Mikey need more backing. Others like Tackett brothers and Ruotolos brothers (assumed clean) can win big shows in exciting fashion, while natural.
Yeah absolutely there is exciting natural people, and it is heavily pushed by certain organizations
It’s has nothing to do with money. The majority of these tournaments/matches have ZERO cash prize
There are steroid abusers that only compete in the gi and in the ibjjf circuit. The IBJJF only pay at worlds and invitationals to the winner of the adult black belt divisions. 99% of their opens, have no cash prize yet people will still take steroids and enter to win these tournaments
It’s the desire to win that makes them want to cheat, this is their life, a lot of them honesty don’t have a life outside of jiu jitsu competitions, they will do whatever it takes to get their hand raised regardless of the prize
Well said Jon!
I'm 50 with 3 knee surgeries. I really don't want to play butterfly guard because it hurts when my shin gets compressed. Is this a "limiting belief"? The pain is real.
Damn this was honest and on point
Bjj the gentle art...never mind the blown shoulders, arthritic fingers, busted knees, aches and pains etc.
A doctor / Jiu Jitsu enthusiast here . Great points !
I agree with most of your points and still think we should just continue on and don’t test people.
My main reason being that adding in testing just raises the barrier to competition for those people who can’t beat or cheat past the tests. Only people who can take gear and still beat tests would be able to take the gear, as opposed to almost anyone.
Even in the UFC people found ways to beat USADA, and sport jiu jitsu doesn’t have the money or the resources to pay for something like that anyway.
I am a 40-year-old blue belt. A couple years ago I was diagnosed with low testosterone. I have started taking trt from my doctor to get me back to healthy levels. Even just being at a healthy level I feel like Superman. I could only imagine if I really abused testosterone what I would feel like. I don't even want to go there
Yeah I can’t imagine, I’m 37 and definitely don’t have energy like when I was 20 I can only imagine being a 17 year old on massive trt and steroids lol.
I’m 34, I do abuse testosterone . I fuking love it . I’m a black belt but I don’t compete professionally I do local tournaments for fun . I am a fire fighter and father family man. High testosterone lets me train hard and save lives while having energy to run around with my kids .
@@chaystafari3228 hell yeah brother!
@@JonThomasBJJyou look like you maintain a plant based diet. Generally people dont utilize dietary strategies that maximize energy production..
Most people just dont want to ferment their foods, eat more nutrition, or remove foods that may be encouraging inflammation which essentially drains the body.
I do these things and have more energy than i ever did in my 20s, not to mention how it helps my mood and dealing with social stress.
Alot of people jump to steroids rather than utilize sustainable lifestyle choices.
(Im 37 too)
100%... I have a very similar story, even down to the blue belt, but I'm 53! I feel great, look healthy, and love it. That being said, my hair is going to shit and it's tough for me to roll back-to-back days. 1,000mg every 8 weeks is the sweet spot for me.
Great video, a lot of people arnt informed on the long term effects and impact. We don’t really know much because it’s relatively new technology.
Your right to try and amplify natural methods, ultimately it will help you live longer
I don’t take anything, but I think regular levels of trt at a certain age is fine, rhe guys taking juice are taking 3-4 different things and High doses
In my opinion, steroid use is against fair and equal competition.
I’m glad I watched this Video. Now I know you have a podcast
im 34 now and I train at a prominent gym with famous ufc fighters, less known pros, and hungry amateurs. I don't compete anymore. Never done steroids. Real tempting bc the older i get the more injury prone I am. tons of guys on it in the gym. Even had it offered to me. How much longer can I hold out?!
Maybe just a sprinkle of test over your morning toast?
All great points. I absolutely think steroids are a negative influence on the bjj community and organizations need to test and enforce punishments. Only exception (maybe) would be trt for older athletes with a dr prescription within normal levels….
I'm 46 and many in my gym are on trt. I've thought about it and got tested, but it's normal, so I'm just going to continue working through old man BJJ and just know that my technique needs to be more dialed than people around me. I"m okay with that.
I was a big defender of hard anti doping policies but Clarence Kennedy's video "why I'm against anti doping" kind of changed my mind. I highly recommend it
Great points he made.
"Why I am against anti doping" , injects himself some acai and jesus.
Soooo many good points here
This is a rational argument, and honestly there isnt an valid counter to it! I support this video 100%
Great video. I compete in the masters division. I have been on try, but that's because my levels were under 200. My 1st black belt competition was this past Pans. I got handled as expected, but my opponent was strongest I ever felt. It was far from natural. Lol. I don't think steroids will ever leave competition bjj, especially at masters division. No one really cares other than the adult divisions.
Strength and weight does impact competition, otherwise we don't need weight brackets. Strength is a benefit to the equally skilled.
The martial art was supposed to be for beating bigger people. The sport is about besting somebody in a similar weigjt class for the most part so steroids doesn't necessarily go against that. I think steroids are lame though and they should just have natty and roided divisions I guess.
All the old guys I know (but actually years younger than me) are on TRT. I won’t ever do it.
Everyone feels the sport progressed. Maybe in terms of popularity and to some degree technical evolution (at the cost of some things), but a lot of culture change in this sport has moved us backwards.
Yeah I agree it has improved a lot but also regressed a lot.
I didnt realize it was so rampant. Learning BJJ would be cool but I dont want some juicehead cranking on my neck and joints. Ive heard too many stories of guys getting bad neck issues from training. thats a hard pass for me.
The real problem is that there is no great way to prevent steroid use. Testing is expensive and advancements in it are always behind the drug advancement. Also, it doesn't do a good job at detecting micro dosing. When you can't enforce the rules, it creates a huge incentive to use peds just to even the playing field. What is really EASY to do though is stop dehydrating and then rehydrating to compete at a higher weight than than the weight class limits, but we don't even think of doing that.
I think is really important to speak up about this. Using steroids is simply cheating there's no other way oround it.
I'm a 32 years old black belt and from my early 20's i've been competing against steroids users i have lost in multiple ocassions but I have gained a mental strength that my opponents lack, and after a couple of years this is what makes the difference.
You were so convincing on the positives that I might get on gear now lol
Ahahahah this often ends up being the case it’s like man this shit works really good lol
Fact is, steroids are a tremendous recovery and strength advantage, even at trt levels. Removing the feedback loop for bad behavior is honestly a good take. It's the 24/7 muscle protein synthesis and recovery injection. Like you said, no judgment, and I honestly may use when I'm older. But it is what it is.
I like your jiu jitsu content, but I’m an avid amateur endocrinologist, and I think your information is a bit off, as well as your value judgments on some elements that you discussed. Just my friendly two cents, maybe I’m wrong… but maybe I’ve studied the topic deeply, and see things a little differently because of that.
All the best
I’m just tired of these guys acting like steroids aren’t SIGNIFICANTLY helping them. Body building is the same, they say “oh you still have to put in the work” like that means anything regarding the advantages it’s giving you. Everyone is putting in the work
Its weird that they use steroids in bjj. I look at it like a chess match in a way & using steroids (i'd argue) is like using an engine in chess & the fact they allow that; kind of defeats the purpose of that match when its supposed to be based on the persons individual skill
If we dont have money for testing all athletes. lets have two separate categories "natrual" and "juice" why is that even difficult? dont say they dont have money for that. at least big events they sell off. We can at least test everyone who steps on the podium. and if they get caught, their medals can be taken away.
There's a ton of health benefits for men past a certain age to get TRT, that is undisputed.
Yeah this is definitely true, I guess the question is some of the long term negatives that might come from long term use, and also whether or not they keep the dosage to reasonable levels. I think it’s worth discussing with a couple experts in a podcast.
@@JonThomasBJJyea they’re bald and I’m twice the age of some of them and not 😂
@@JonThomasBJJ Please do that podcast, it is a topic so taboo for old grapplers.
Nice
Thanks!
Steroid use in BJJ just shows how much EGO is at play.
Also, the idea of technique beating strength is really only applicable when the bigger opponent isn’t that knowable in BJJ or the skill difference is large like two belt levels. Gordon Ryan even said the reason he did steroids because he felt OVERPOWERED in matches, despite having better technique. Once he matched their power now he’s unbeatable.
Lot of steroid guys at my gym and honestly it’s getting discouraging to roll with them. It’s so obvious who’s on it and who’s not.
This is the whole point I made this video. It’s obviously true and a huge advantage, but for example look at Lucas Lepri vs Kaynan Duarte, or Lachlan vs Muhammad Aly, these are heavyweight world champion and ADCC champion black belts, losing to guys who are in the lightweight division. That is irrefutable proof that it is possible. Who knows what is possible in the future, 20 years of technical evolution someone from the future rolling today might all current heavyweights because of technique that hasn’t even been invented yet. That’s not to say it’s not a huge advantage but you can’t have that kind of limiting belief because it will hinder your belief in what you are capable of.
This is the whole point I made this video. It’s obviously true and a huge advantage, but for example look at Lucas Lepri vs Kaynan Duarte, or Lachlan vs Muhammad Aly, these are heavyweight world champion and ADCC champion black belts, losing to guys who are in the lightweight division. That is irrefutable proof that it is possible. Who knows what is possible in the future, 20 years of technical evolution someone from the future rolling today might all current heavyweights because of technique that hasn’t even been invented yet. That’s not to say it’s not a huge advantage but you can’t have that kind of limiting belief because it will hinder your belief in what you are capable of.
@@JonThomasBJJ I’m stuck hard in that limited belief. Imagine being a 150lb skinny blue belt who doesn’t do any strength training, everyday having to spar with juiced up blues and purples 50lbs heavier. It sucks. I’m not a black belt with that technique difference. Not quitting but damn these guys. I swear this hobby tends to weed out smaller people
@Arcadianx98 take up weight training and add 20 pounds of muscle. It's possible to gain that muscle naturally in 2 or three years. Weight training is essential to Jiu-jitsu.
@@Arcadianx98still sucks as a Blackbelt rolling with much bigger and aggressive guys. It still takes a toll on your body. I was that blue belt once though dude, don’t sweat it just stay as injury free as you can enjoy training
Royce popped for steroids in his last MMA match.
Hello Jon. I am 35 yo and started doing BJJ 6 months ago. Love your content. I have been using steroids for the past two months after years of educating myself on the topic. I obviously feel the advantage but I think as you said there is a lot of nuance. Firstly it allowed me from barely being able to survive two trainings a week to making it through three plus strength training sessions. Also it allowed me to slow down on the matt, focus on proper defense and turn down the white belt panic a lot. I am honest about my use with anyone who asks, I do not abuse strength on the mat and I keep my diet clean, sleep optimized while I also try to stretch and go to sauna every second day. My choice was motivated by wanting to continue strength training and being able to handle BJJ regularly on top of that without being constantly destroyed, sore and sleepy. I would never advise people to hop on gear especially young guys but I sincerely think that there is a place for people like me in the sport.PS If you banned everything and started testing the problem would change to who can clean up the quickest before competition and who can risk it with the most exotic and hard to detect compounds.
nailed it
I really dislike steroids, but I don't feel like the appeal of BJJ being small people beating larger opponents is relevant at all. That applies when the larger opponent doesn't know BJJ, or at least they are significantly worse at it than the smaller one. Imagine if Royce Gracie's opponents in UFC 1-4 also were BJJ black belts. People use steroids in BJJ to get a physical advantage over people who are at their own belt level.
This is obviously incorrect, Kaynan Duarte is a World Champion black belt and ADCC champion, he lost to Lucas Lepri and Lachlan Giles who were both lightweights. There is countless other examples of very high level black belts losing to smaller non steroided people. It’s not just a small person can only beat an unskilled person but even at very high levels. Of course no one is saying strength isn’t a huge advantage it is, the point is through developing higher and higher level techniques a lot can be accomplished. This mindset here is specifically what I’m referring to when I talk about limiting beliefs.
@@JonThomasBJJ I'm sorry, but exactly which part of what I said was "obviously incorrect"? It's not a rhetorical question, I actually don't understand. Aren't you just pointing out that sports aren't deterministic here? There's a reason betting exists. Yes, there are upsets, there are skill differences within belt ranks, there are differences in specialities, there are counters, there are a thousand factors in play. Should I start listing examples of huge people destroying smaller opponents of higher belts in a matter of seconds? What's the point of that? Put two people of equal skill up against each other where one is roided and the other isn't. I know where I would put my money. I would put it on the cheater. That is the only obvious thing in this conversation. Also, why are you using me as an example of "limiting beliefs"? I'm not limiting myself just because I understand WHY people cheat. I roll against these people all the time, and I evaluate what mistakes I made if they crush me, the same as I do with non-cheaters. And of course I can catch them out if I see one of their mistakes and capitalize on it. That doesn't change much though.
The competitors at the tippy top of the sports are VERY dedicated and hungry to win. They don't want to win ONCE because BJJ is so amazing and they could even catch a juiced up Gordon Ryan in the upset of the century. They want to win over and over again. They have the choice between betting on upset after upset after upset, or leveling the playing field by cheating vs cheaters. The people taking the moral high ground and claiming to be natty etc. are doing a great thing, clearly. The roiding culture is disgusting and many of these roiders are influencers. They are corrupting the mind of the youth, undoubtedly, I am pretty sure we'd agree on that. But juicing for the sake of for example trying to compete with Gordon Ryan's win streak, is nothing but completely and utterly understandable. Doesn't mean it's ethical.
Btw, "developing higher and higher skills, a lot can be accomplished". Yes, of course. The problem is that the roiders are also developing higher and higher skills in addition to roiding. They are probably doing so at a high rate than the others too, because winning often at a high level opens more doors for spending more time on the mats, even just thinking economically. Gordon Ryan is juiced AF, but it's not like his technique isn't at an astronomical level.
You're responding as if I'm blackpilled about BJJ competition or something. Steroids is bad. It's cheating and toxic in a thousand ways. My point was that acting like cheating in BJJ is special compared to other sports because "you can just get better skills instead and beat the larger opponents that way instead" just comes off naive as hell, because it implies that either roided people are inherently less technically skilled, or you should bet on repeated upsets.
I would say if youre redlining your body and dont have hormonal capacity to recover even with proper diet and sleep you need to taper up the gear to allow you to train to your training frequency. Also youre wrong on diet and sleep you absolutely need to still be on point unless youre a genetic phenom like ronnie coleman. Otherwise you can get away with a little more on gear but you cant be sloppy.
You can be big and strong and roided out and still have skill. These are bonuses. Steroids are illegal and should be seperated.
Using roids as a short cut to over ride bad or mid technique is ehh.
WE have caused this ourselves by how we treat the athletes. Athletes, especially in MMA, are sold to us as products. After they age out of their prime and/or enter a losing streak or become more injury-prone as they age, everyone, including promotors and the audience, discards them like trash.
Athletes want to delay the inevitable for as long as humanely possible by steroids, because they never finished school, have very limited carreer prospects elsewhere and don't know any other life. Let's be real, half the pros we see, in MMA or BJJ, can't even teach to save their life - because that's a different skill. It's always been like this in many sports, including martial arts, but MMA is where the impact of commodifying athletes is more visible for everyone to see, meanwhile BJJ as a subculture, while more honest about it, also seems reluctact to reflect on how we treat one another or implement changes.
Steroids are bad but they are the direct result of how we commodify and objectify athletes for our own entertainment, commenting on their short-comings, etc., be it some random blue belt judging you for your appearance or a person who can't punch nor grapple judging Mackenzie Dern for losing by decision. The saddest part is, unlike in MMA, a large precentage of the BJJ audience actually trains the sport so we should know how hard it is to get good at it let alone get to the elite level. We should know better but we're acting exactly the same if not far worse - for lower pay, too.
7:00 Are you arguing for or against steroids here? 😀
Lmao these anti campaigns often turn into advertisements 😂
The reality is performance enhancing drugs have infiltrated almost all sports - we need to come to terms with it - Yes technique will overcome most untrained individuals but weight, strength plus technique is a powerful combination. In general, proper strength training without PEDs will go a long way in leveling the playing field if your technique is better than most.
Peds without proper nutrition and resistance training will do very little to overcome very good technique. I find some BJJ, Grapplers and Percussive Martial artists who are hobbyists and willing to take Peds as a shortcut don't do enough real work to improve their technique.I would forget what others are doing as unfair as it is and focus on your performance, but I get it, it leaves a bad taste in our mouths when someone is getting an edge through pharmaceuticals.
Don't give too much credit to Peds as not everyone responds favorably and the risks are many, including cancer, high blood pressure and even myocardial infarction. Very few are hyper responders, most will need to combine proper exercise, nutrition and sleep plus dedication to improving their art to gain results and still need regular blood work to ensure good overall health - overall not worth the risk long term
Craig jokes has been known juiced for years
Isn't life also unfair though what about IQ difference or genetic differences?
What if one person has a more supportive family or can afford a personal trainer.
As a community we're good at dealings with hardware issues like sex and weight, but bad at dealing with software issues like above such as IQ.
A cheat will always be a cheat
This is pretty easy to understand... just look at what steroid use did to Professional Wrestlers...
The reality is steroids are in our sport. An amateur might think to enter masters divisions to make competing easier but there’s an even higher prevalence because of the naturally lower hormone levels.
Jon Thomas for president.
Dr. prescribed TRT is not roids. Abusing and overusing the T prescription is when it can be considered roids, and of course all the "gear"like Tren, etc.
Problem is, our modern food and environment has drastically reduced the baseline T levels of men compared to previous generations. This is fact. And I honestly don't know how you cleanup the way food is grown for billions of people, and remove plastics from our environment.
Personally I agree with just about everything in this video and I feel very hurt by the rampant steroid usage in jiu jitsu. Personally I have never taken steroids and the only things I take are dietary supplements in Pine Bark extract and Spike support or multivitamins. But steroid usage in jiu jitsu really hurts the sport since I feel like it takes away from the legitimacy of the sport and makes is more about strength. I'm only 5 foot 6 and close to 135 pounds so I am not really the biggest guy in the room most times so I have to really rely on technique but steroids give an unfair advantage and are really just cheating. I feel like Jimmy Stewart in Mr Smith goes to Washington since at one point I had this very positive view of the people at the top of the world of Jiu Jitsu ,but now I feel like Mr Smith walking back to the Lincoln memorial with the dimmed lighting since my perception has changed.
Man, people make excuses for everything
It’s sad that somebody has to explain how cheating works to people today.
Those who don’t embody the true spirit of Jiu Jitsu will hurt the art and sport in the long run.
This man convinced me to take steroids
I’ve been sitting out of bjj for months now bc some huge roided out dude wrenched hard on my underhook (see Orlando Sanchez grappling Sean Strickland). So fuckin pissed
Not trying to blame you but you need to understand how to have a powerful underhook that can't get Sanchez'd but also just know your training partner i haven't gotten hurt yet so I roll with everyone but the moment I do I'm being very picky with my training partners
@@dirtygeazer9266 Even comp classes don’t do dirty shit like that. In comp, fine, but we’re literally TRAINING. Injuries will happen but you can’t be going in there with the intent to injure
They chose Royce over Rickson because Rickson wanted more money
Didn't Royce Gracie got popped for steroids?...
The situarion is too far gone. Training grappling hard everyday takes a massive tool in the body, so the temptation is way too big. Not only for the titles, but also not feeling in pain like shit.
Gordon Ryan will very probably die before he is 50, I believe he already accepted that and it is fine with the glory.
Say no to steroids.
Honestly I don't care. Jujitsu is self defense first before sport. And some competition dont have weight classes. Edge you would get with PEs is stamina. Which doesn't count for much when your opponent is much more skilled than you.
Unfortunately, Bjj has become like bodybuilding.
I judge people who use steroids! Why play like you are not? You do judge by nature. Most of the time it is not my business if they use steroids, but let's be honest, they deserve judgment.
Yeah certainly in the sport when they are bullying others with it, but I guess if they aren’t fighting other people or just use it because they are older and feel they want it for the personal life. It’s not for me but I don’t judge that in the same way as a competitor cheating vs another
@@JonThomasBJJI am 60. I don't use steroids or T, cuz why bother. But, it is human nature to make a judgement good, bad, or don't care. This judgement is still made. If juicing in a sports, it is cheating. Simply. Keep doing good stuff. 👍
There is no dirtier sport in the world. Period
The rule should be no TRT before 50 years old. If you need roids to do BJJ then you suck. Sorry Gordon.
Why 50, i'm in my 30s and could compete as a "female" powerlifter in the Olympics with how sh-t my levels are. Guys are in their 30s with levels under 200, why is that?
@@badxradxandy Why is your T so low dude? If your T is this low then that would obviously be the exception but too many guys are claiming low T in there 20s and 30s when they are in there 400s so they can get an extra edge.
@@jerryh2954 I gotta inject test directly into my balls just to counteract all the feminizing hormones from seed oils, microplastics, birth control and SSRIs in the tap water.
EVERY sport should have PEDs