As far as I can remember, I didn't get the photo from Odon but from an article "Paintings in the early Islamic world" by Dr. Beatrice Leal. Unless he shared a link to it in the comments. But thanks either way! This video today was another gem.
**////////⚠️⚠️ Allah's prophets are named after another GOD⚠️⚠️ Has Allah forgotten his name or is he just an IDOL!⚠️⚠️//////////*** Why is it the unforgivable sin in Islam to confess " there is only one God and this is YHWH"" The Name Jesus means------------- **"YHWH SAVES "* Elijah means------------- --------------**" MY GOD IS YHWH"** John means ----------------------------**" YHWH has been gracious""** Zakariya means -----------------------**""YHWH has remembered""** */////////////are all prophets according to the Quran////////////////**
I said it before and I will say it again that ‘Abd al-Malik is the founder of Islam given the names of his father and his father’s wives which happened to be Muhammad and all the characters in the SIN of prophet Muhammad.
I'm wrestling with Islam since 1983. For some reason I always sensed that something is wrong with SIN. This video is like a revelation for me! Thank you very much! I beg you, please do create a German translation!!!!!
@@sebastiendefrance9986 YES - I KNOW THAT...HA HA HA... 1) WHAT IS THE 'Standard Islamic Narrative - SIN'? 2) And what does it says that you are against?
@@aaabrams1889 What is sin? 1: To deny the Lord Jesus Christ. 2: To deny the Father and the Son. 3: To deny that Christ is come in the flesh. If you died tonight, where will you go? When you open your eyes on that other side, who will you see? When you stand on that other side for judgment, who will judge you? Sin, AA, sin. It is not a sin to call the devil a liar, we know allah is the devil. But you remain in the hands of the devil even today because you always repeat the lies he told you and refuses to allow you to have your own thoughts from the years of reading what has shown that your religion is the work of the devil and you know it. Yes, AA, there is a judgment day coming. Have you killed enough people to make it in? Have you told enough lies? Have you paid mohammad and his family enough money? What will it take for you to make it into the imaginary place called jannah when you have no promise. The judgment day is coming, AA, and it is coming quickly. Be ready, AA. You are in sin according to both your religion and Christianity/ You have not killed anyone, thank God, but because you have not killed you cannot go. Now do you understand AA, your religion and prophet calls for you to murder people. And somehow you think a man who told you to murder people to go to some heaven offering nothing but sex is actually a real place? Think about it. A prophet that demands murder in his name. Now what is it about the SIN that you haven't heard debunked in the last many years? Murder, rape and torture, that is SIN. And that AA is a sin to do such things.
Thank you both, so much, for re-doing your presentations, after your first taping was lost. The "coin-presentation" are amazing. Dr. Jay, you've been saying for months that the coins were key to cracking open the 7th century. You kept at it. Thank you so much. This is ground-breaking. This has been sooooo much fun. Merci beaucoup. Shoukran.
Odon's visual was masterful. He has made two great visuals that provide a new narrative that that challenges the SIN. Moreover, he gets us to the point where the Abbassids have to come up with a written story to fit their own narrative. Now we can look at the hadith makers and Quran writers in a completely different light and one that makes more sense.
@@aaabrams1889 This video is showing that Islam is a completely man made fiction. The historical evidence is proving there was no such thing as Islam pre dating 692-694. Abdul Malik, and leaders after him, made it all up forced the narrative upon people.
@@Jimmy_English That is the video premise...but where's the proof? Looking at the First Islamic coins without understanding the history...YES HISTORY that is taught in Universities, makes this child's play, only HATERS OF ISLAM will believe.
@@aaabrams1889 No. Think. The coins, paintings, texts, documentation, geography, trade, cultures, all point to the fact that Islamic narrative isn’t clear, nor accurate. It’s not for haters, it’s for people with open minds. Plus, it is debated in universities, you only have to listen to what Yasir Qadhi said, ‘there are no boundaries, or red lines, of debate in western scholarships.
Another note, in Persian and Afghanistan, the Sasanian type silver coins still continue deep into the Abbasid period: Khosrow II and fire alters but also the Arabic writing. I do have one of these types of coins where Khosrow II bust is replaced by a "Diamond" shape. This coin is from Tabaristan by Sulayman cAD787-789 and is a hemidrachm from the Silk Road Hoard.
Volker Popp talks extensively about the “pole on steps” symbol which is called Yegar Sahaduta, according to him it is a symbol of “the foundation of Israel.” His article is “From Ugarit to Samarra”.
@@abrcdabra Popp theorises that the symbol is a reference to Bethel, The House of God (Genesis 28, 15 to 19) and Yegar Sahadutha, The Stone of Witness (Genesis 31 and 45 to 47). They are supposed to refer to the belief that God chose the Arabs as the new heirs of the covenant given to Abraham, after the Jews failed to fulfill it. God’s promise of salvation would pass to the sons of Abraham and Hagar represented by the Arabs. The Stone of Witness becomes the symbol of the new, permanent covenant between God and mankind.
@@_John_P Interesting theory; I have to look into that a little more. But in the end the Arabs failed in their mission as well: from the 1500s on when the Ottomans took over the Arab empire. So maybe the Arabs weren't the 'chosen' people after all. And in the 1900s the West or should I say 'the Christians' took over the Ottoman Empire except for Turkey.
Actually to be clear Popp uses another coin different from what Odon showed, which in addition to the “pole on steps” also has a second symbol similar to a house and Popp considers that as a symbol of Bethel.
**////////⚠️⚠️ Allah's prophets are named after another GOD⚠️⚠️ Has Allah forgotten his name or is he just an IDOL!⚠️⚠️//////////*** Why is it the unforgivable sin in Islam to confess " there is only one God and this is YHWH"" The Name Jesus means------------- **"YHWH SAVES "* Elijah means------------- --------------**" MY GOD IS YHWH"** John means ----------------------------**" YHWH has been gracious""** Zakariya means -----------------------**""YHWH has remembered""** */////////////are all prophets according to the Quran////////////////**
Where would the dating "80" or "78" fit , in Odon''s scenario? What would be the significance of the date if not dated by some kind of "HIjra"? (the date on Abdu Malik's later coins and on the rick inscription)
If Abd al Malik was the very first Caliph, that completely rules out Muhammad as a historical figure. He probably saw himself as a politico religious figure much like the Messiah who is King, Priest and Prophet. It is the priest who intercedes with God on behalf of the people, the prophet being the messenger and the king being the political figure.
**////////⚠️⚠️ Allah's prophets are named after another GOD⚠️⚠️ Has Allah forgotten his name or is he just an IDOL!⚠️⚠️//////////*** Why is it the unforgivable sin in Islam to confess " there is only one God and this is YHWH"" The Name Jesus means------------- **"YHWH SAVES "* Elijah means------------- --------------**" MY GOD IS YHWH"** John means ----------------------------**" YHWH has been gracious""** Zakariya means -----------------------**""YHWH has remembered""** */////////////are all prophets according to the Quran////////////////**
Abd al-Malik put the date [AH?], the year 78 on his new coin reformed gold dinar. This date cannot be an Abbasid redaction so how did Malik get the year [AH] zero, some 78 years before? Where did the AH dating system and it's year zero come from? Great stuff Odon and Jay as always, Brian.
This is another very interesting issue: the early "islamic" calendar I think it relates to the foundation of a sort of Arab confederation, when some Arab auxiliaries to the empires broke their allegiance around 620-622, and prepared for the Apocalypse (thanks to the apocalyptical Arab and Nazarene preachers)
In one lecture somewhere a while back I heard that AH was a later addition. It began with year of the Arabs not after hijrah. Would like to see some verification on that though.
@@Stardust475 if this is the case what is the meaning of the inscription at Hisma at the end of the year AH80? Does that mean the dating of the inscription is faulty?
English isn't my native language, I had a hard time understanding Odon when he first came on Jay's channel. Either his English has improved or I'm getting used to the French accent, because I find it much less effortless to listen now.
Your hearing has probably adjusted to the accent. As a previous ESOL teacher even the most difficult to understand students were easier to understand over a few weeks. I also found it easier to listen to Odon with earphones. Also have huge respect for anyone with a command of 2nd or 3rd language learnt in adulthood.
@@irishheritage893 Agreed. But the rumor says you should master apologetics before getting into polemics. Currently I'm mostly learning, hoping to be able to do something.
Interesting note about the inscription at Hisma: The writer signed the inscription as being written at the end of the year 80. I suppose this refers to AH(After Hijra). Does this mean that the Hijra narrative was already established or does it refer to another event?
@@OdonLafontaine Hi Dr Odon, thank you so much for your commitment and relentless hard work. Very much appreciated. I would like to download all your PDF presentations, with your permission of course. How do I access them? Thanks
A masterful thesis from Odon, using the 7C coins as a backbone for the presentation, well hosted by Jay. As he said that does provide a good explanation of how things developed in broad terms. Abd-El-Malik does come across as somewhat ruthless, clever, effective militarily, maybe not much of a conscience, but then a lot of powerful leaders historically have been like that (before constitutional rules and democratic representation helped out), William the Conqueror was perhaps a similar soul. There are odd isues like the black stone, as it's odd from a Judaeo-christian perspective that something so idolatrous could somehow get into the eventual religion of Islam. Could that somehow have come from Zoroastrianism? People back in those times were more awed by meteorites, so maybe it was the stone from Ephesus associated with Diana worship (Greek god) heisted somehow across into the Middle East? The black stone is an enigma.
@@irishheritage893 The Baetylus of Aphrodite (al-Uzza) already existed in the Temple to al-Uzza in Petra. Al-Uzza is mentioned in many hadiths. The Baetylus of Aphrodite seems a better candidate for the fragments of the black stone, as Islam practices also incorporated from paganism and al-Uzza was the Goddess of Fertility. The silver frame that houses the fragments of the black stone is in the shape of a vagina.
Kindly make a video on mauviya and Ali,that is between 600AD to 640AD that would remove all the ambiguity which is lurking in the Islamic world, it would put light on every nooks and corners of darkness, thank you Odon and Dr jay
I think that, that circle-like portion on the pole that sits on the alter to the right, are two cycle-moons that replaced those two arms on the Byzantine cross that was formerly there. This posting is powerful.
On a collecting note, and thank you Jay as you got me acquiring these Arab/Islamic coins so I can educate people on the history of the rise of the Arabs, I was lucky enough to find a nice example of Zubayr's 685/6 "Muhammad Rasul Allah" Sasanian coin. Odon mentioned that Malik melted these coins down after winning the civil war - any idea how scarce these coins are?
I know of only two of them The first one is the one I showed The second was shown by Tom Holland in his documentary "Islam, the untold story" (see the references in the pdf file of the presentation on my website)
Is it possible that maybe there is a secret guild of coin makers who make fake coins, and get to the archaeological dig sites first, bury their fake coins, and then cover them up with dirt, so that when the archeologists arrive, they will be thrown off track by their "findings"?
@@OdonLafontaine so Père LaFontaine, I'm still waiting for your answer about Daniel. In your last video you said Daniel wasn't a prophet and I questioned you about Daniel being a prophet in the Bible. Would you still say that Daniel was not a prophet❓❓🤔🤔
@@Joorawon.M.Yousuf I think you might be confusing the Odon Lafontaine and Jay Smith streams about the 7C coins, with the CIRA international streams from Joel Richards and Al Fadi about end time prophecies. In the latter a muslim was implying Daniel was not a real prophet as his book wasn't in the prophets scroll. But it is in a canonical Jewish scriptural scroll, so the argument is not valid. Some liberal scholars think that Daniel is entirely bogus, but that seems to be because they are atheist or near atheist, and so assume anything supernatural cannot possibly be true, and Daniel has a lot of stuff in it that would not be possible unless God was intervening.
Thanks Odon, you nailed it. Great narrative based on the facts how Islam emerged and evolved specially humanizing Mohammad at Abbassid era and also creating Ali as an alternative for a Persian view of him. Brilliant
Yes great and plausible narrative, Muhammad and Ali seem to be the same person to some extent and are the result of a complicated history and events and rivalry between different arab tribes the ghassanids and manadira ? (not sure if the English name everyone has resulted in different traditions leading to Sunna and Shia Islam.
Master class Jay and Odon! God give you both more wisdom and revelation, research to welcome them home to Jesus. Suggestion/question, what drove them to the believe of Jesus imminent return and with that the failed apocalypse when Jesus did not return according to their self created expectations which was politically driven by their desire to shake of the double yoke of the byzantines and sasanians.
Odon, have you looked into the pre Umar Byzantine configuration of the temple mount. The Brevarius Jerusalem, Sophronius' poem about the holy sites, and the Piacenza pilgrim all describe the rock as the site of the Pretorium of Pilate and there rock as Gabbatha. This would explain all the references to Jesus in Abdul Malik's inscriptions.
From the Byzantine style coinage and even the art we’ve seen in the Umayyad palaces, it’s apparent that these early caliphs has pretensions to imperial power sans the devotion to Christ. I believe that like Abdul Malik’s mocking of Christ on the coins, he also wanted to mock him on the Temple Mount where his passion was revered. Christ’s footprints were said to be left in the rock where he stood before Pilate. The basilica that was built over the site was named Hagia Sophia, and the poem about that rock by St Sophronius relates that that was where Holy wisdom stood to be judged. Abdul Malik in turn encircles this rock with an ambulatory with inscriptions denying Jesus’ divinity claiming he was only God’s messenger. The place of the Temple on the other hand was near or under the Al Asqua mosque. Archeologist found the mosaics of the church/monastery of St. Mary there during the British mandate period. I’ve noticed that all the confrontations and tension on the Mount today is focused on that area too, which tells me I’m not the only one that has figured this out. Great work to you both. I really enjoy the videos.
after so many truths and facts about oneness of Lord Christ, how and still Muslims can be muslim. If they want to debate then please debate and use your whatever minds you all have and for last they(muslims) can say goodbye to lies that were told for ages to them.
I‘m not convinced that Abd al-Malik called himself Muhammad, the inscription on the inside of the Dome of the Rock which was built under his supervision clearly refers to Jesus. Your plaques could also be interpreted that way. I guess it’s possible that al-Malik used it for both himself and Jesus, but I doubt that. He does of course present himself as leader of the faithful and as speaker for God, but that’s not on the level of Messiah. That was a reaction to the Byzantines introducing the medieval idea of ruling by the grace of God under Heraclius.
I think also Muhammad meant both Jesus and Abd al Malik (or ibn al Zubayr) on coins and inscriptions But clearly, as abd al Malik took the "caliph" title for himself, he pretended to be the messiah (or a new messiah) as the lieutnant of God is supposed to be the messiah. I see also a strong clue, a strong argument for this with the building of the dome of the rock, who says nothing about Jesus'return and the transfer of his place of return from Jerusalem to Damascus
@@OdonLafontaine I think you’re reading too much into the ”Khalifat“. Heraclius called himself ”Servus Christ“. ”Khalifat Allah“ essentially means the same thing, only it has an anti-Trinitarian connotation. It was likely a reaction, basically saying ”my religion is better than yours“. Also, while it is true that the Arabs expected the apocalypse to be imminent, I wouldn’t want to read too much into it. What we definitely can agree upon is the importance of Abd al-Malik for the later evolution of Islam. Without him, we probably wouldn’t have had the new empire you speak of. Mu’awiya basically wanted to continue the Persian Empire under new (Arab) rule. Abd al-Malik understands that this doesn’t work and he pushes a hard Arabisation policy with the Quran at its centre. But it was still a Christian Quran.
The Dome of Rock inscription says of Jesus in a past tense. It says he "was" - "The Messiah Jesus son of Mary, WAS only God’s messenger, His word that He committed to Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him. So believe in God and His messengers. Do not say ‘three’". Clearly lumping Jesus with other messengers. It is a polemic against the excess worship of Jesus. The Dome of the Rock also says that MHMD IS his messenger. There is a clear difference in context in separating Jesus and MHMD. The Dome of the Rock is demoting Jesus from the Christian pedestal and presenting MHMD as the next in line. There is nothing that says that Jesus is MHMD. On the Dome - "Ask blessings on him and salute him with a worthy salutation." - not God and I don't think Jesus either. "Muhammad IS His messenger" versus "Jesus WAS only a messenger". It is very clear that this isn't Christian. If Muhammad isn't Jesus, it couldn't be Umar, because he is dead, and there is no explicit worship of Umar as a divine figure. Sure there were people who might have done just that like Muslims worshiping saints in the past, but nothing explicit in doctrine. The logical conclusion I have reached, is that Muhammad is the person who commissioned the Dome of the Rock and is a title for lineage but there can't be two or more Muhammads at the same time because they have to be frauds and only one authentic.
@@samuelmorales2344 I‘m referring to Christoph Luxenberg‘s translation of the Dome inscription. No past tense there. It’s a concise narrative from beginning to end, all about Jesus being only a man and a prophet. Odon gave a good analogy: ”Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.“ this is from Psalm 118:26, quoted in the New Testament and also most likely the root of the inscription. In Latin, it is ”Benedictus qui venit in nomine Domini.“ You could also translate it as “Benedict who comes in the name of the Lord.” But the context makes clear that this wouldn’t make sense. Just like the context of the inscription in the Dome of the Rock makes clear that it can only be Jesus it is talking about. It says “Praised be the servant of God and his messenger.” In the very next verse it says “For (verily) the Messiah Jesus, Son of Mary, (is) the messenger of God.“ Afterwards, it continues to be all about Jesus. Therefore Jesus is the Muhammad, the “praised one”, not a prophet from Mecca and neither Abd al-Malik.
At the time of prophet PBUH, they use the Cristian Roman coins and their Rules about the coins.. Later when Islam win so many Ghazwas one of them is Ghazwe badar include 313 Muslim vs 100000 non Muslim fighter.. when Islam came into fully power they had made their own coins with no Pic or Cristian Sign..
The central symbol of Abd al-Malik's coin also looks like the way the staff of Moses is often represented. Sometimes it is represented as a tau shaped staff with a snake circling around and above it. Jafar al-Sadiq claims it is in possession of the Muslims, so they are they heirs to the prophets. A claim like that would infuriate the Byzantines. The staff with branches may, however, be represented on the right side of the coin. (The bronze coin at the end at 1:03:00 has what looks like this staff, but it appears that "Il MHMD" or "The Blessed" is written.) One thing is for sure. Nothing was put on these coins that didn't serve a purpose.
If it hasn't been done already, it would be interesting to see how Muslims at Speaker's Corner in London react when exposed to this material, the coins but also the art and statuary from the Early Caliph's palaces, but also the earliest reference to 'the Mohammed' as a still living person 7 decades after the first revelation in the cave.
Question: Odon mentioned (in one of the previous parts) Umar is described as a lumberjack. What is the source that describes Umar that way? Is it a reliable early source?
Odon's point is good about the intercession of the servant of Allah. However, we have learned that people did go to graves and mausoleums very late. There were certain rules to which one would adhere, but it was done at this time most likely.
Dear Dr. Jay, please pass this to Dr. Odon: Nasr Allah literally means God's Victory - Not Help. This can be more meaningful in the context he presented - it might imply that Allah won (against trinitarian? ) or what ever was the event this coin was minted for was a victory from God. Thank you...
@@moorek1967 HA HA HA...YOU LIAR!!! Shame on you!!! WHERE does a Hadith says " this individual named Mohammad never really existed."??? Now you want to preach....🤣😅🤣
This all sounds reasonable except one thing doesn’t make sense. The Ummayid branch that ruled Spain should have been adherents to Abdul Malik and be different to the SIN created by the Abbassids
Reading on Wikipedia, its claimed that the Abbasids were masters in propaganda... This would make sense that SIN was propaganda in order to claim their stake at the caliphate.
What word does the Peshitta record in Aramaic for the "only begotten" in John 1 : 18? th-cam.com/video/A1K09empFIA/w-d-xo.html It could be a bit of additional evidence that establishes what Malik is saying about himself to the Christians living under his rule.
On the Sasanid coins , the image on the obverse was two Zoroastrian Priests flanking the Fire Alter . They believed that God was made of fire , so the Fire Altar was God and the Priests were serving Him . The coin of Abd al-Malik is similar , but now he is in the center , replacing God , and he is flanked by words , which are serving him . Very interesting symbolism .
Odon notes that Abd al-Malik took every title and all the glory, so the Abassids had to build on it by using Abd al-Malik to justify their claim to authority. The need to construct a narrative begins some time after Abd al-Malik. Wow.
Fantastic work from Odon, thank you so much. I have noticed that the coins use the "Islamic" calendar dates and count the years since the supposed Hijra. As we know that Mecca did not exist back then, and that there was even less Mahomet, what happened that in 622 to have pre-islamic rulers using this year as a reference point? It predates the entering of Umar in Jerusalem, so what is it? Do we have any credible theory about it?
I read some where that the two words mhmd in arabic and masih in aramaic looks very much the same If we can substitute the words with the name of mohmed in arabic with the word masih in aramaic we get new revelations Jay and odon may please note
Messiah in aramaic is not that close to "mhmd" It reads as ܡܫܝܚܐ / m'shya There is nonetheless a kind of ressemblance between the arabic "mhmd" and the aramaic "jesus" but it is a controversial issue as it not the same pronounciation, and as the ressemblance only appears when you use specific typos or fonts
What comes to my mind is the uprising of christian sects like JW or Adventists, who were apocaliptic too, who were arian too, and when Jesus didn´t come back at their chosen date, it evolved into another religion.
Interesting and plausible but at least one of the inscriptions you quoted quotes a date of year 80 right? This seems to correspond to the Hijri right? If so it means people at the time of Abd al Malik where referencing the hegira (or at least something important that happened in 622)? Which undermines your point that Abd al Malik was styling himself as Mohammed.
Good question Already gave some answers in the comments below. This is the issue of the hijr and the muhajirun. Something real happened around 620-622, that was important enough that some Arabs at this time saw it as the foundation of a new era. A new "messianic" era, if we look at the further traces of this Arab movement (sources, coins, inscriptions...) Around that time, Heraclius started his offensive against Persia, and some Arab auxiliaries to both empires disbanded and formed a sort of Arab confederation. Was this the actual hijr ? It might have been. Even more when we consider the apocalyptical nature of those times, the spreading of the apocalyptical sermons (from the Jewish Nazarenes and also from Arab preachers)
There's no evidence from the 7th century for the term "hijri", it is is certainly a later invention. Early inscriptions either state the year and nothing else, or add the expression "qada al-muminin" (قضا المومنين) after the year, and it translates to "jurisdiction of the faithful", if the modern interpretation of the meaning of "qada" is used.
Good job to Jay and Odin. I think another Avenue to look into is the story of how the templars were accused of worshipping the head of Muhammad corrupted as Baphomet, and they were required to spit on the cross, this lines up pretty well with what you guys are saying with the coins
Umar ceased all wars before his death and was careful in signing a treaty before setting foot in Jerusalem. Muawiya took power and became almost a pacifist, also described as a Christian at heart who recognises Jesus as the Saviour by external sources. The Greek historian Theophanus refers to Muawiya and Umar as "Primus inter pares" (Gr. Protosymboulos) instead of kings, which means they were seen as representatives. From the archaeological viewpoint, there's a remarkable gap in the number of unearthed coins in the region from the period around 650 all the way to 1100, which is seen as an indication of population exodus and economy in the brink of collapse in general because just before 650 coins were abundant (Afghanistan nowadays rings a bell).
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I have a question. The rock inscription referencing "the Muhammad" is dating itself to the year 80, but that implies that the SIN narrative must have already been established at this time since it refers to an event in the life of the SIN Muhammad.
What all these implies is - it all started as a political battle between the Byzantine Empire and its protectorate or client state in the Levant; and its independence and slowly the political movement transformed into a separate religion during the Abbassid Rule. A ruler claiming himself as the God's chosen one, Rasul, is not unique to Abd Al Malik or Islam. Almost all ancient rulers did that, almost everywhere. Specifically before christianity. So, just an accident of history. :-) Even the Abbassid caliphs claimed they were also Rasul of Allah. Harun al Rashid in the Arabian Nights stories was claimed as a Rasul. Not Nabi.
The apocalyptic vision of Islam played a powerful role in its development and it remains here up to present day. The case Odon made was very strong and has never been expressed so clearly by anyone I know up to this point. The last line of the conclusion will blow your mind. No spoiler here.
@@Louis.R What do you make of texts like Genesis 18-19 where God accompanies Abraham, and God is also in heaven above? Or Daniel 7:13 where the Son of Man ascends to the Ancient of Days and receives an eternal kingdom, and the worship of men and angels? You can also see Moses not able to see God, and having to hide in a rock and see the glory of God, yet also the elders of Israel sup with God. Why are their references to the Spirit of God, who manifests here on Earth? I think rabbinic Judaism may be missing things, perhaps because of denial of Christ long ago, hence an ignoring of certain Tanakh texts and their implications, due to a strong emotional reaction of rejection against Jesus as the Messiah, embedded in the Talmud and other later texts.
Amazing presentation. One question: what do you think "in the year 70/75/80 etc." refers to on the coins or inscriptions of Abd al-Malik? P.S. I have now seen the commentaries you've already made. Am looking forward to more
the minted coins always refer to the year 78, the year 80. Is it related to year 622 the hijrah year? You mentioned sometime ago that 622 is the year of arab revival instead of the hijrah year
Thanks a lot for this reportage !! I learned a lot about intercession in Islam and about the real meaning of the inscriptions on these coins. Now the problem is how to discuss about all of this with Muslims... maybe not.
Mind-blowing stuff. Please do elaborate on the shia/sunni rift. There aren't enough resources besides the std narrative. Minor translation points: Odon says "to pretend" when he means "to claim", and once said "deception" instead of "disappointment".
The budded Nestorian budded tau cross disappeared. The budded stylized budded stairway is gone. My guess is that Abd al-Malik's coin represents the stone where Isaac was to be sacrificed. It looks like the figure of a man with feet and arms on hips in the center. It's got the feel of an idol, but it may be Allah himself.
The 694 gold coin of Abd al-Malik no longer seems to be abstract circle with a pedestal and rod. It now is a scepter that represents authority. The continuity of the coinage is clear, but the content has changed. They stylized steps harken back now to Muawiya. It isn't cluttered with messaging It is clearly asserting the authority of Abd al-Malik.
Does anyone know whether the Ummayyads continued to use a solar calendar during the 7th century period of apparent Byzantine economic and socio-political-cultural sway? This might tell us a lot if the switch to lunar calendar reckoning happened with or after Abd-al-Malik.
Interesting analysis of the evidence as always! One question: the coin of Abd al-Malik and the stone carving both carefully present the Islamic year, the same year apparently as the SIN would have it be: time begins in 620. The year seems to be coincident with the SIN counting of years because the dating of the coin can be approximately identified by other evidence: the coin dispute with Justinian II. (We can presume therefore that the carving also followed the SIN measuring of time.) This seems to be a strong argument in favor of the SIN. If the coin were to have said "Year 12", this would be another point undermining the SIN. So, to counter this Odon would need to find a justification for beginning time in 620. Something certainly happened in that year. The SIN says it was the Hegira. One might question why such an event in the life of the prophet Muhammad would be chosen for the beginning of time but I am confident that Islamic theologians have provided answers to this question. For instance: the moment the Muslim movement went from defense to offense, from humiliation to growing triumph. Odon, what evidence do we have for an alternative significance of this year?
Surah Fussilat 41 : 37 prohibiting muslim to worship sky objects (sun, moon, stars) is recited by Muhammad (because he's illiterate) 3-5 years (AD 613-615) after he proclaimed as a prophet of allah in AD 610. He copied the Jews' Tanak (Bible: the Old Testament) Exodus 20 : 4, Deuteronomy 4 : 19 & 17 : 3 but Q 6 : 77 muslims used to worship the moon goddess 🌙 & Q 53 : 49 Sirius the brightest star used to be Allah. William Tisdall says in his book "The Original Sources of the Qur'an - Its Origin In Pagan Legends and Mythology" during that time Muhammad followed some of Jewish's, Christian's & the Sabian belief and practices. At that time he was still befriended wth them. He had access to Jewish's, Christian's & the Sabians (ancient people of Mesopotamia (nowadays Iraq) until Syria) scriptures. He admitted the rightful Inhibitans of Israel in the Palestinian's land (Quran 5: 20-26), Jews & Christian are good friends. They'll go to heaven., but quran 5:82 to hate the Jews but Christians are the kindest to muslim, fight & slaughter the Jews (Sahih Muslim, Book 41, Hadith 6981 & 6985), quran 5:14 to hate Christians, quran 9:29 to fight theJews & Christias, 5 : 51, 1 : 7 the Christians & Jews are the cursed ones. Muhammad ordered muslims to pray 5x/ day to curse them, the Pact of Omar in AD 717, allah turned the Jews into pigs & monkeys Q 2 : 65 & 5 : 60, 7 : 163, rats are made from the Jews Sahih Al Bukhari, book 54, Hadith 524, cut the neck & fingers of the disbelievers Q 8 : 12 & 47 : 3 - 4, to kill the non muslims Sahih Al Bukhari Vo. I, p. 13, Q 9 : 14, to wipe out non muslims Q 6 : 44 - 45 & many more. The turning point is in AD 624. Muhammad wanted to be accepted as their new prophet (the Jew were waiting for their prophet & the Christian were waiting for the coming of Christ for the 2nd time). When they rejected him he turned against them. Muhammad quarrelled with the Jews in AD 624 in Medina. Muhammad chased, killed & expelled them out of the Arabian Peninsula.
@@joeyahoo4493 I think Odon's thinking will require a different type of thinking. He rejects the idea of a Muhammad as recounted in the SIN. So he would reject the notion of a Muslim community in Mecca around a man carrying the given name Muhammad. Therefore, Odon needs to find something to replace the significance of the Hegira for the year 622, the year zero of the Islamic calendar. The calendar is well attested. But what does it attest to?
620 or 622? Anyhow, at the beginning of the 620's, there are events that could have been retrospectively seen as the foundation of something: - The beginning of Heraclius'offensive against Persia - The creation of a more or less loose Arab coalition (maybe several) in western Arabia made from Arabs who fled and disbanded from the Persian and Byzantine armies ; I think among this was the faction that eventually took Jerusalem (the faction fueled by the Nazarene sermons)
Note that there are letters on Muawiya's coin IA. We know about the abbreviations of Christ: XC and IC. It may be that IA is Isa, as he is called by Arabs in the Quran. These solidus coins were intended for the Byzantines. This would just be an additional expression of Muawiya's independence.
But 'allah was not a team used by prior Christians. They used 'ILAH and 'al-'ILAH, very distinctly different words despite somewhat of a superficial rhyme.
Good question I tried to give some answers in the comments below as many people are asking about this topic We'll surely make a video about the Islamic calendar and the hijr
Great work Odon. I think you nailed it. I've got a question though. In standard narrative Ibn al-Zubayr was slain on battlefield. You mentioned he was crucified. Where we could read about it? Thank you
@@OdonLafontaine Thank you very much. Top man. One more thing. When are you going to give us English version of your great book? We've been waiting for it for so long..... ;)
Magnificent! This explains so much of the data. I might quibble about some minor things, but I think Odon has got the big picture right in all material respects.
People really need to stop focusing on the past, and focus on the future ,.it's good to know history of humanity because it tends to repeat ..but beyond that , those that kill people for whatever belief started in the past , are crazy , mentally insane .
Hi Jay, I have a view about Abdul Malik Coin. Can you review. Abdul Malik's second most famous Coin is the Man with a Sword. The coin was issued in response to Justinian issued Coin having image of Jesus in 692. The response of Abd al Malik was Coin having a Man with a sword. In normal case anybody would assume the image as Abd al Malik's image. But what would Abd al Malik gain with his portrait in response to Jesus image by Justinian? My argument is the picture was represenation of Jesus. The sword in the Coin is a double edged sword. Its having apocalyptic meaning of second coming of Jesus with double edged sword. There are icons of Jesus with double edged sword even now. So the Abd al Malik coin is actually depicting Jesus with a double edged sword in response to Justinian coin of Jesus with a cross in the back ground. Now the backside of the coin shows a steady pole over the foundation steps instead of cross. What does it mean? The steps are symbol of Golgoltha in Christianity. So the Pole over the Steps is having theological meaning. It makes it clear that the Jesus who was crucified in the Golgoltha is having a single nature ie Monophysite. Another coin shows a circle embedded over this pole. It shows the humanity of Jesus was fully depended on his Divinity. The coin was theological than mere political.
Should the depiction be Jesus, what do you make then of the sassanian like coin I showed around 32:18 ? On the observe, there is an image of the Persian emperor according to the traditionnal persian coinage, but you can see he also has the hand on his sword. I don't think this image could point to Jesus... But the image of Jesus's word as being a sword (as in Ap19,15) is very interesting. This might be the origin of zulfiqar, the double points sword of Ali. Zulfiqar is "Dhu al faqar", "master of the divider". Faqar is based on the same root as Faruq (divider betwen right and wrong, savior, redeemer, as I explained in my first video on coins with Jay)
@@OdonLafontaine i am afraid, i can't really see a sword in the coin of Sassanid emperor. Can it be part of his dress. A sword and hand actually misses the size in dimension of head. I am Interested in the timing of Abd al Malik putting the image of Man with a Sword. Its exactly when Justinian put an image of Jesus with background of Cross. The abd al malik response is classical. The Coin is exactly what is Jesus in Revelation. Jesus comes like a King with a double edged sword. I am sorry that, i dont find anything suitable than it. I can't imagine Abd al Malik putting his own image as a reply to Justinian putting Jesus Image. Its a competition btw Chalcedon (Byzantine) vs Monophysite (Ummayad) coin. The party who had better version of Jesus wins. The second thing, i want to put in your notice is the backside of Coin. The Pole on the steps with a circle looks exactly like a Monophysite bishop Crossier denoting Moses staff. I cant imagine anything else. The older one of Muwayyah with a T shaped pole is actually a Tau Cross.
@@catholicorthodoxfaith2689 I also thought at first that those coins depicted Jesus, a sort of "apocalyptic" Jesus ready to unleash God's justice unto the evildoers. But I changed my mind as I got more and more elements and figured out the "big picture". I really think this is Abd al Malik - but still, there might be a reference here to the "apocalyptic" Jesus, as Abd al Malik wanted to identify with this figure. As for the timing, the first coin I found with the "standing caliph figure" (or "apocalyptic" Jesus) is from 690. It is the copper fals I showed in this presentation, the first coin.
SIN = Standard Islamic Narrative
SINNER = someone who commits to SIN
😁😁 SIN-Lover, SIN-Believer, SIN-Spreader .....😁
As far as I can remember, I didn't get the photo from Odon but from an article "Paintings in the early Islamic world"
by Dr. Beatrice Leal. Unless he shared a link to it in the comments. But thanks either way! This video today was another gem.
My bad then 😔
I remember putting a link under your post asking for "islamic" images
But thanks to you, this is becoming common knowledge 💪
**////////⚠️⚠️ Allah's prophets are named after another GOD⚠️⚠️ Has Allah forgotten his name or is he just an IDOL!⚠️⚠️//////////***
Why is it the unforgivable sin in Islam to confess " there is only one God and this is YHWH""
The Name Jesus means------------- **"YHWH SAVES "*
Elijah means------------- --------------**" MY GOD IS YHWH"**
John means ----------------------------**" YHWH has been gracious""**
Zakariya means -----------------------**""YHWH has remembered""**
*/////////////are all prophets according to the Quran////////////////**
I said it before and I will say it again that ‘Abd al-Malik is the founder of Islam given the names of his father and his father’s wives which happened to be Muhammad and all the characters in the SIN of prophet Muhammad.
Do you have a link for proof ?
I'm wrestling with Islam since 1983. For some reason I always sensed that something is wrong with SIN. This video is like a revelation for me! Thank you very much!
I beg you, please do create a German translation!!!!!
What is 'SIN'?
@@aaabrams1889 Standard Islamic Narrative
@@sebastiendefrance9986
YES - I KNOW THAT...HA HA HA...
1) WHAT IS THE 'Standard Islamic Narrative - SIN'?
2) And what does it says that you are against?
@@irishheritage893 he’s a troll.
@@aaabrams1889 What is sin?
1: To deny the Lord Jesus Christ.
2: To deny the Father and the Son.
3: To deny that Christ is come in the flesh.
If you died tonight, where will you go? When you open your eyes on that other side, who will you see? When you stand on that other side for judgment, who will judge you?
Sin, AA, sin. It is not a sin to call the devil a liar, we know allah is the devil. But you remain in the hands of the devil even today because you always repeat the lies he told you and refuses to allow you to have your own thoughts from the years of reading what has shown that your religion is the work of the devil and you know it.
Yes, AA, there is a judgment day coming. Have you killed enough people to make it in? Have you told enough lies? Have you paid mohammad and his family enough money? What will it take for you to make it into the imaginary place called jannah when you have no promise.
The judgment day is coming, AA, and it is coming quickly. Be ready, AA.
You are in sin according to both your religion and Christianity/ You have not killed anyone, thank God, but because you have not killed you cannot go. Now do you understand AA, your religion and prophet calls for you to murder people. And somehow you think a man who told you to murder people to go to some heaven offering nothing but sex is actually a real place? Think about it. A prophet that demands murder in his name.
Now what is it about the SIN that you haven't heard debunked in the last many years? Murder, rape and torture, that is SIN. And that AA is a sin to do such things.
Thank you both, so much, for re-doing your presentations, after your first taping was lost. The "coin-presentation" are amazing. Dr. Jay, you've been saying for months that the coins were key to cracking open the 7th century. You kept at it. Thank you so much. This is ground-breaking. This has been sooooo much fun. Merci beaucoup. Shoukran.
This is excellent content. Well done Odon & Jay.
Odon's visual was masterful. He has made two great visuals that provide a new narrative that that challenges the SIN. Moreover, he gets us to the point where the Abbassids have to come up with a written story to fit their own narrative. Now we can look at the hadith makers and Quran writers in a completely different light and one that makes more sense.
Amazing material. Blows the SIN to pieces.
@@Feqh SIN = Standart Islamic Narrative
@@matthewchrist5399
How does this Bullshit 'Blows the SIN to pieces.'???
What does it refutes?
@@aaabrams1889 This video is showing that Islam is a completely man made fiction. The historical evidence is proving there was no such thing as Islam pre dating 692-694. Abdul Malik, and leaders after him, made it all up forced the narrative upon people.
@@Jimmy_English
That is the video premise...but where's the proof?
Looking at the First Islamic coins without understanding the history...YES HISTORY that is taught in Universities, makes this child's play, only HATERS OF ISLAM will believe.
@@aaabrams1889 No. Think. The coins, paintings, texts, documentation, geography, trade, cultures, all point to the fact that Islamic narrative isn’t clear, nor accurate. It’s not for haters, it’s for people with open minds. Plus, it is debated in universities, you only have to listen to what Yasir Qadhi said, ‘there are no boundaries, or red lines, of debate in western scholarships.
No one has made a great informative video like Odon. Impressed . Keep it up
Another note, in Persian and Afghanistan, the Sasanian type silver coins still continue deep into the Abbasid period: Khosrow II and fire alters but also the Arabic writing. I do have one of these types of coins where Khosrow II bust is replaced by a "Diamond" shape. This coin is from Tabaristan by Sulayman cAD787-789 and is a hemidrachm from the Silk Road Hoard.
Persian elite did not convert instantly to Abbasid islam... It took at least a century after the Abbasid revolution for islam to really emerge
Odon, wow! This is post University level scholarship!
Volker Popp talks extensively about the “pole on steps” symbol which is called Yegar Sahaduta, according to him it is a symbol of “the foundation of Israel.” His article is “From Ugarit to Samarra”.
I thought that it could be an early symbol that proclaims the 'uniqueness' of God/Allah as well.
@@abrcdabra Popp theorises that the symbol is a reference to Bethel, The House of God (Genesis 28, 15 to 19) and Yegar Sahadutha, The Stone of Witness (Genesis 31 and 45 to 47). They are supposed to refer to the belief that God chose the Arabs as the new heirs of the covenant given to Abraham, after the Jews failed to fulfill it. God’s promise of salvation would pass to the sons of Abraham and Hagar represented by the Arabs. The Stone of Witness becomes the symbol of the new, permanent covenant between God and mankind.
@@_John_P Interesting theory; I have to look into that a little more.
But in the end the Arabs failed in their mission as well: from the 1500s on when the Ottomans took over the Arab empire. So maybe the Arabs weren't the 'chosen' people after all. And in the 1900s the West or should I say 'the Christians' took over the Ottoman Empire except for Turkey.
Actually to be clear Popp uses another coin different from what Odon showed, which in addition to the “pole on steps” also has a second symbol similar to a house and Popp considers that as a symbol of Bethel.
**////////⚠️⚠️ Allah's prophets are named after another GOD⚠️⚠️ Has Allah forgotten his name or is he just an IDOL!⚠️⚠️//////////***
Why is it the unforgivable sin in Islam to confess " there is only one God and this is YHWH""
The Name Jesus means------------- **"YHWH SAVES "*
Elijah means------------- --------------**" MY GOD IS YHWH"**
John means ----------------------------**" YHWH has been gracious""**
Zakariya means -----------------------**""YHWH has remembered""**
*/////////////are all prophets according to the Quran////////////////**
Odon has taken this Genre of Islamic Revisionism to a whole new level😊😊😊
Where would the dating "80" or "78" fit , in Odon''s scenario? What would be the significance of the date if not dated by some kind of "HIjra"? (the date on Abdu Malik's later coins and on the rick inscription)
If Abd al Malik was the very first Caliph, that completely rules out Muhammad as a historical figure. He probably saw himself as a politico religious figure much like the Messiah who is King, Priest and Prophet. It is the priest who intercedes with God on behalf of the people, the prophet being the messenger and the king being the political figure.
Caliph = Leader (king), Priest ( is also usually a mouthpiece of God aka Prophet). This word is from the first letter of the Hebrew Alphabet.
**////////⚠️⚠️ Allah's prophets are named after another GOD⚠️⚠️ Has Allah forgotten his name or is he just an IDOL!⚠️⚠️//////////***
Why is it the unforgivable sin in Islam to confess " there is only one God and this is YHWH""
The Name Jesus means------------- **"YHWH SAVES "*
Elijah means------------- --------------**" MY GOD IS YHWH"**
John means ----------------------------**" YHWH has been gracious""**
Zakariya means -----------------------**""YHWH has remembered""**
*/////////////are all prophets according to the Quran////////////////**
Walter Williams's book 'The Historical Origin Of Islam' says that the fictional character of prophet is based on Ibn al-'Arabi's life.
When did ibn al-arabi live?
Read also William Tisdall "The Original Sources of the Qur'an - Its Origin In Pagan Legends and Mythology" & FW Burleigh "It's All About Muhammad"
Abd al-Malik put the date [AH?], the year 78 on his new coin reformed gold dinar. This date cannot be an Abbasid redaction so how did Malik get the year [AH] zero, some 78 years before? Where did the AH dating system and it's year zero come from?
Great stuff Odon and Jay as always, Brian.
This is another very interesting issue: the early "islamic" calendar
I think it relates to the foundation of a sort of Arab confederation, when some Arab auxiliaries to the empires broke their allegiance around 620-622, and prepared for the Apocalypse (thanks to the apocalyptical Arab and Nazarene preachers)
In one lecture somewhere a while back I heard that AH was a later addition. It began with year of the Arabs not after hijrah. Would like to see some verification on that though.
@@Stardust475 if this is the case what is the meaning of the inscription at Hisma at the end of the year AH80? Does that mean the dating of the inscription is faulty?
@@OdonLafontaine Thank you for the reply & for your great service.
Arab independence year. The year on which Heraculis liberated the Monophysite Christian Arabs from Sassanids.
English isn't my native language, I had a hard time understanding Odon when he first came on Jay's channel.
Either his English has improved or I'm getting used to the French accent, because I find it much less effortless to listen now.
Your hearing has probably adjusted to the accent. As a previous ESOL teacher even the most difficult to understand students were easier to understand over a few weeks. I also found it easier to listen to Odon with earphones.
Also have huge respect for anyone with a command of 2nd or 3rd language learnt in adulthood.
that surname is very Swedish :))
@@-BigIi- Yes, Swedish representative checking in, ready to join the apologists army!
@@irishheritage893 Agreed.
But the rumor says you should master apologetics before getting into polemics.
Currently I'm mostly learning, hoping to be able to do something.
I think the information is flowing better now; more linear. Less hopping around.
Interesting note about the inscription at Hisma: The writer signed the inscription as being written at the end of the year 80. I suppose this refers to AH(After Hijra). Does this mean that the Hijra narrative was already established or does it refer to another event?
Good question
I tried to give some answers in the comments below
@@OdonLafontaine Hi Dr Odon, thank you so much for your commitment and relentless hard work. Very much appreciated. I would like to download all your PDF presentations, with your permission of course. How do I access them?
Thanks
Congratulations to Odon for a very well thought through thesis. Now we must test it.
A masterful thesis from Odon, using the 7C coins as a backbone for the presentation, well hosted by Jay. As he said that does provide a good explanation of how things developed in broad terms. Abd-El-Malik does come across as somewhat ruthless, clever, effective militarily, maybe not much of a conscience, but then a lot of powerful leaders historically have been like that (before constitutional rules and democratic representation helped out), William the Conqueror was perhaps a similar soul.
There are odd isues like the black stone, as it's odd from a Judaeo-christian perspective that something so idolatrous could somehow get into the eventual religion of Islam. Could that somehow have come from Zoroastrianism? People back in those times were more awed by meteorites, so maybe it was the stone from Ephesus associated with Diana worship (Greek god) heisted somehow across into the Middle East? The black stone is an enigma.
@@irishheritage893 The Baetylus of Aphrodite (al-Uzza) already existed in the Temple to al-Uzza in Petra. Al-Uzza is mentioned in many hadiths. The Baetylus of Aphrodite seems a better candidate for the fragments of the black stone, as Islam practices also incorporated from paganism and al-Uzza was the Goddess of Fertility. The silver frame that houses the fragments of the black stone is in the shape of a vagina.
Kindly make a video on mauviya and Ali,that is between 600AD to 640AD that would remove all the ambiguity which is lurking in the Islamic world, it would put light on every nooks and corners of darkness, thank you Odon and Dr jay
Daddy Jay come and pick your son here in Nigeria and bring him up in Apologetics. I want to get this knowledge to help out people in the dark
@@irishheritage893 which ever English u speak is not for me, he understands my point
@@whatistheevidence370 but you know that I can't get enough from that
We're entering the 8th century and Mecca has not yet emerged from its nonexistence. haha...
I think that, that circle-like portion on the pole that sits on the alter to the right, are two cycle-moons that replaced those two arms on the Byzantine cross that was formerly there. This posting is powerful.
On a collecting note, and thank you Jay as you got me acquiring these Arab/Islamic coins so I can educate people on the history of the rise of the Arabs, I was lucky enough to find a nice example of Zubayr's 685/6 "Muhammad Rasul Allah" Sasanian coin. Odon mentioned that Malik melted these coins down after winning the civil war - any idea how scarce these coins are?
I know of only two of them
The first one is the one I showed
The second was shown by Tom Holland in his documentary "Islam, the untold story" (see the references in the pdf file of the presentation on my website)
The figure of the caliph at 32 minutes looks very much like the image of Christ on the shroud of Turin
God bless you both .
Is it possible that maybe there is a secret guild of coin makers who make fake coins, and get to the archaeological dig sites first, bury their fake coins, and then cover them up with dirt, so that when the archeologists arrive, they will be thrown off track by their "findings"?
This would be the most logical explanation according to the standard islamic narrative
@@OdonLafontaine best comment haha
@@OdonLafontaine so Père LaFontaine, I'm still waiting for your answer about Daniel. In your last video you said Daniel wasn't a prophet and I questioned you about Daniel being a prophet in the Bible. Would you still say that Daniel was not a prophet❓❓🤔🤔
@@Joorawon.M.Yousuf Never said such a thing
What was your question ?
@@Joorawon.M.Yousuf I think you might be confusing the Odon Lafontaine and Jay Smith streams about the 7C coins, with the CIRA international streams from Joel Richards and Al Fadi about end time prophecies. In the latter a muslim was implying Daniel was not a real prophet as his book wasn't in the prophets scroll. But it is in a canonical Jewish scriptural scroll, so the argument is not valid. Some liberal scholars think that Daniel is entirely bogus, but that seems to be because they are atheist or near atheist, and so assume anything supernatural cannot possibly be true, and Daniel has a lot of stuff in it that would not be possible unless God was intervening.
Thanks Odon, you nailed it. Great narrative based on the facts how Islam emerged and evolved specially humanizing Mohammad at Abbassid era and also creating Ali as an alternative for a Persian view of him. Brilliant
Yes great and plausible narrative, Muhammad and Ali seem to be the same person to some extent and are the result of a complicated history and events and rivalry between different arab tribes the ghassanids and manadira ? (not sure if the English name everyone has resulted in different traditions leading to Sunna and Shia Islam.
Master class Jay and Odon! God give you both more wisdom and revelation, research to welcome them home to Jesus. Suggestion/question, what drove them to the believe of Jesus imminent return and with that the failed apocalypse when Jesus did not return according to their self created expectations which was politically driven by their desire to shake of the double yoke of the byzantines and sasanians.
Odon, have you looked into the pre Umar Byzantine configuration of the temple mount. The Brevarius Jerusalem, Sophronius' poem about the holy sites, and the Piacenza pilgrim all describe the rock as the site of the Pretorium of Pilate and there rock as Gabbatha. This would explain all the references to Jesus in Abdul Malik's inscriptions.
From the Byzantine style coinage and even the art we’ve seen in the Umayyad palaces, it’s apparent that these early caliphs has pretensions to imperial power sans the devotion to Christ. I believe that like Abdul Malik’s mocking of Christ on the coins, he also wanted to mock him on the Temple Mount where his passion was revered. Christ’s footprints were said to be left in the rock where he stood before Pilate. The basilica that was built over the site was named Hagia Sophia, and the poem about that rock by St Sophronius relates that that was where Holy wisdom stood to be judged. Abdul Malik in turn encircles this rock with an ambulatory with inscriptions denying Jesus’ divinity claiming he was only God’s messenger. The place of the Temple on the other hand was near or under the Al Asqua mosque. Archeologist found the mosaics of the church/monastery of St. Mary there during the British mandate period. I’ve noticed that all the confrontations and tension on the Mount today is focused on that area too, which tells me I’m not the only one that has figured this out. Great work to you both. I really enjoy the videos.
Amazing stuff Odon. Dr. Jay Smith, your usual excellent Summary is missing, could you please put it on here, thank you, Simon
after so many truths and facts about oneness of Lord Christ, how and still Muslims can be muslim. If they want to debate then please debate and use your whatever minds you all have and for last they(muslims) can say goodbye to lies that were told for ages to them.
Watch yasir qadhi reply to this jokers. He doesn't even know bagdad and Cairo didn't exist at time of usman.. Jokers.
Even Abdul Malik had a daughter name was Fatima
Yes and Malik's Father, Marwan I had;
A wife Aisha
A wife Zaynab
and his mother (Marwan I) name was Amina....
Doesn't that sound suspicious!
@@briankillen8067 everything in this cult is suspicious even their copycat Quran from bible and other books
Placing our treasure in heaven is a more sure way than in earthly coins.....but man what an amazing video.
I‘m not convinced that Abd al-Malik called himself Muhammad, the inscription on the inside of the Dome of the Rock which was built under his supervision clearly refers to Jesus.
Your plaques could also be interpreted that way.
I guess it’s possible that al-Malik used it for both himself and Jesus, but I doubt that.
He does of course present himself as leader of the faithful and as speaker for God, but that’s not on the level of Messiah. That was a reaction to the Byzantines introducing the medieval idea of ruling by the grace of God under Heraclius.
pl see my remarks above
I think also Muhammad meant both Jesus and Abd al Malik (or ibn al Zubayr) on coins and inscriptions
But clearly, as abd al Malik took the "caliph" title for himself, he pretended to be the messiah (or a new messiah) as the lieutnant of God is supposed to be the messiah.
I see also a strong clue, a strong argument for this with the building of the dome of the rock, who says nothing about Jesus'return and the transfer of his place of return from Jerusalem to Damascus
@@OdonLafontaine I think you’re reading too much into the ”Khalifat“. Heraclius called himself ”Servus Christ“. ”Khalifat Allah“ essentially means the same thing, only it has an anti-Trinitarian connotation. It was likely a reaction, basically saying ”my religion is better than yours“.
Also, while it is true that the Arabs expected the apocalypse to be imminent, I wouldn’t want to read too much into it.
What we definitely can agree upon is the importance of Abd al-Malik for the later evolution of Islam. Without him, we probably wouldn’t have had the new empire you speak of. Mu’awiya basically wanted to continue the Persian Empire under new (Arab) rule. Abd al-Malik understands that this doesn’t work and he pushes a hard Arabisation policy with the Quran at its centre. But it was still a Christian Quran.
The Dome of Rock inscription says of Jesus in a past tense. It says he "was" - "The Messiah Jesus son of Mary, WAS only God’s messenger, His word that He committed to Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him. So believe in God and His messengers. Do not say ‘three’". Clearly lumping Jesus with other messengers. It is a polemic against the excess worship of Jesus. The Dome of the Rock also says that MHMD IS his messenger. There is a clear difference in context in separating Jesus and MHMD. The Dome of the Rock is demoting Jesus from the Christian pedestal and presenting MHMD as the next in line. There is nothing that says that Jesus is MHMD. On the Dome - "Ask blessings on him and salute him with a worthy salutation." - not God and I don't think Jesus either. "Muhammad IS His messenger" versus "Jesus WAS only a messenger". It is very clear that this isn't Christian. If Muhammad isn't Jesus, it couldn't be Umar, because he is dead, and there is no explicit worship of Umar as a divine figure. Sure there were people who might have done just that like Muslims worshiping saints in the past, but nothing explicit in doctrine. The logical conclusion I have reached, is that Muhammad is the person who commissioned the Dome of the Rock and is a title for lineage but there can't be two or more Muhammads at the same time because they have to be frauds and only one authentic.
@@samuelmorales2344 I‘m referring to Christoph Luxenberg‘s translation of the Dome inscription. No past tense there. It’s a concise narrative from beginning to end, all about Jesus being only a man and a prophet.
Odon gave a good analogy: ”Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.“ this is from Psalm 118:26, quoted in the New Testament and also most likely the root of the inscription.
In Latin, it is ”Benedictus qui venit in nomine Domini.“
You could also translate it as “Benedict who comes in the name of the Lord.” But the context makes clear that this wouldn’t make sense. Just like the context of the inscription in the Dome of the Rock makes clear that it can only be Jesus it is talking about. It says “Praised be the servant of God and his messenger.”
In the very next verse it says “For (verily) the Messiah Jesus, Son of Mary, (is) the messenger of God.“
Afterwards, it continues to be all about Jesus. Therefore Jesus is the Muhammad, the “praised one”, not a prophet from Mecca and neither Abd al-Malik.
At the time of prophet PBUH, they use the Cristian Roman coins and their Rules about the coins.. Later when Islam win so many Ghazwas one of them is Ghazwe badar include 313 Muslim vs 100000 non Muslim fighter.. when Islam came into fully power they had made their own coins with no Pic or Cristian Sign..
The central symbol of Abd al-Malik's coin also looks like the way the staff of Moses is often represented. Sometimes it is represented as a tau shaped staff with a snake circling around and above it. Jafar al-Sadiq claims it is in possession of the Muslims, so they are they heirs to the prophets. A claim like that would infuriate the Byzantines. The staff with branches may, however, be represented on the right side of the coin. (The bronze coin at the end at 1:03:00 has what looks like this staff, but it appears that "Il MHMD" or "The Blessed" is written.) One thing is for sure. Nothing was put on these coins that didn't serve a purpose.
If it hasn't been done already, it would be interesting to see how Muslims at Speaker's Corner in London react when exposed to this material, the coins but also the art and statuary from the Early Caliph's palaces, but also the earliest reference to 'the Mohammed' as a still living person 7 decades after the first revelation in the cave.
It is too complex to be shown like this, on speaker’s corner. It can not strike minds like the tens of different quranq Jay and Hatun showed
Question: Odon mentioned (in one of the previous parts) Umar is described as a lumberjack. What is the source that describes Umar that way? Is it a reliable early source?
The closing statement @57:00 is like an unveiling. With everything Islam claims, all roads still lead to Jesus.
Thank you Jay ,can you give your email in description
Odon's point is good about the intercession of the servant of Allah. However, we have learned that people did go to graves and mausoleums very late. There were certain rules to which one would adhere, but it was done at this time most likely.
Excellent presentation
Dear Dr. Jay, please pass this to Dr. Odon: Nasr Allah literally means God's Victory - Not Help. This can be more meaningful in the context he presented - it might imply that Allah won (against trinitarian? ) or what ever was the event this coin was minted for was a victory from God. Thank you...
Who was Abu Bakar giving Aisha his daughter too and she was talking about when referring to M.
Even the hadiths give it away that this individual named Mohammad never really existed.
Where?
@@aaabrams1889 Where do YOU think you will be standing in judgment?
@@moorek1967
HA HA HA...YOU LIAR!!!
Shame on you!!!
WHERE does a Hadith says " this individual named Mohammad never really existed."???
Now you want to preach....🤣😅🤣
Could the the cross replacement on Abd almalik coin be the sacred 🗝️ to Paradise??? Just guessing ...
This all sounds reasonable except one thing doesn’t make sense. The Ummayid branch that ruled Spain should have been adherents to Abdul Malik and be different to the SIN created by the Abbassids
I have wondered about this too.
Nobody ever called jesus as Emmanuel or everlasting Father or even mighty god
Reading on Wikipedia, its claimed that the Abbasids were masters in propaganda... This would make sense that SIN was propaganda in order to claim their stake at the caliphate.
What word does the Peshitta record in Aramaic for the "only begotten" in John 1 : 18? th-cam.com/video/A1K09empFIA/w-d-xo.html It could be a bit of additional evidence that establishes what Malik is saying about himself to the Christians living under his rule.
Is it written "the Muhammad"? Or just "Muhammad"? AlMuhammad? Or just Muhammad?
On the Sasanid coins , the image on the obverse was two Zoroastrian Priests flanking the Fire Alter . They believed that God was made of fire , so the Fire Altar was God and the Priests were serving Him .
The coin of Abd al-Malik is similar , but now he is in the center , replacing God , and he is flanked by words , which are serving him .
Very interesting symbolism .
Very relevant !
Odon notes that Abd al-Malik took every title and all the glory, so the Abassids had to build on it by using Abd al-Malik to justify their claim to authority. The need to construct a narrative begins some time after Abd al-Malik. Wow.
Fantastic work from Odon, thank you so much. I have noticed that the coins use the "Islamic" calendar dates and count the years since the supposed Hijra. As we know that Mecca did not exist back then, and that there was even less Mahomet, what happened that in 622 to have pre-islamic rulers using this year as a reference point? It predates the entering of Umar in Jerusalem, so what is it? Do we have any credible theory about it?
Byzantium defeating Persia
I think it was just political game between Persian(Arab- Persian coin) & Byzantine(Arab - Byzantine coin) on their border.
I read some where that the two words
mhmd in arabic
and
masih in aramaic
looks very much the same
If we can substitute the words with the name of mohmed in arabic
with the word masih in aramaic we get new revelations
Jay and odon may please note
Messiah in aramaic is not that close to "mhmd"
It reads as ܡܫܝܚܐ / m'shya
There is nonetheless a kind of ressemblance between the arabic "mhmd" and the aramaic "jesus" but it is a controversial issue as it not the same pronounciation, and as the ressemblance only appears when you use specific typos or fonts
The first coin is literally a sword coin. Peaceful swords.
What comes to my mind is the uprising of christian sects like JW or Adventists, who were apocaliptic too, who were arian too, and when Jesus didn´t come back at their chosen date, it evolved into another religion.
" .. And it's clear to everyone that the standard narrative has holes in it."
Interesting and plausible but at least one of the inscriptions you quoted quotes a date of year 80 right? This seems to correspond to the Hijri right? If so it means people at the time of Abd al Malik where referencing the hegira (or at least something important that happened in 622)? Which undermines your point that Abd al Malik was styling himself as Mohammed.
Good question
Already gave some answers in the comments below.
This is the issue of the hijr and the muhajirun. Something real happened around 620-622, that was important enough that some Arabs at this time saw it as the foundation of a new era. A new "messianic" era, if we look at the further traces of this Arab movement (sources, coins, inscriptions...)
Around that time, Heraclius started his offensive against Persia, and some Arab auxiliaries to both empires disbanded and formed a sort of Arab confederation. Was this the actual hijr ? It might have been. Even more when we consider the apocalyptical nature of those times, the spreading of the apocalyptical sermons (from the Jewish Nazarenes and also from Arab preachers)
There's no evidence from the 7th century for the term "hijri", it is is certainly a later invention. Early inscriptions either state the year and nothing else, or add the expression "qada al-muminin" (قضا المومنين) after the year, and it translates to "jurisdiction of the faithful", if the modern interpretation of the meaning of "qada" is used.
Good job to Jay and Odin. I think another Avenue to look into is the story of how the templars were accused of worshipping the head of Muhammad corrupted as Baphomet, and they were required to spit on the cross, this lines up pretty well with what you guys are saying with the coins
Thank you very much Odon. Is becoming clear and logic.
Thank you Gentlemen, for applying this kind of pressure on the gates of hell. I can hear how the hinges of the gates of hell are CRACKING!
wow!! this historical analisis is on ANOTHER level!!thanks Jay and Odon!
How powerful were these caliphs to impose such changes without a revolt from the societies that they were ruling over?
Clearly, the first rulers had little power
Powerful leaders emerged starting with Muawiya
Umar ceased all wars before his death and was careful in signing a treaty before setting foot in Jerusalem. Muawiya took power and became almost a pacifist, also described as a Christian at heart who recognises Jesus as the Saviour by external sources. The Greek historian Theophanus refers to Muawiya and Umar as "Primus inter pares" (Gr. Protosymboulos) instead of kings, which means they were seen as representatives. From the archaeological viewpoint, there's a remarkable gap in the number of unearthed coins in the region from the period around 650 all the way to 1100, which is seen as an indication of population exodus and economy in the brink of collapse in general because just before 650 coins were abundant (Afghanistan nowadays rings a bell).
I have a question. The rock inscription referencing "the Muhammad" is dating itself to the year 80, but that implies that the SIN narrative must have already been established at this time since it refers to an event in the life of the SIN Muhammad.
no it does no imply that the SIN had been established, only that somehting happened 80 years that was judged as a foundation 80 years later.
@@OdonLafontaine Do you have any idea of what that event might have been?
What all these implies is - it all started as a political battle between the Byzantine Empire and its protectorate or client state in the Levant; and its independence and slowly the political movement transformed into a separate religion during the Abbassid Rule.
A ruler claiming himself as the God's chosen one, Rasul, is not unique to Abd Al Malik or Islam. Almost all ancient rulers did that, almost everywhere.
Specifically before christianity.
So, just an accident of history. :-)
Even the Abbassid caliphs claimed they were also Rasul of Allah.
Harun al Rashid in the Arabian Nights stories was claimed as a Rasul.
Not Nabi.
The apocalyptic vision of Islam played a powerful role in its development and it remains here up to present day. The case Odon made was very strong and has never been expressed so clearly by anyone I know up to this point. The last line of the conclusion will blow your mind. No spoiler here.
this is the pole of pain, they changed the cross to believe that Jesus was crucified on a pole.
Fabulously interesting. Now the narrativ is landing in a meaningful way.
Christians and Jews worship the true God almighty. Yhwh the one that reveals himself ✝️🤝✡❤. May God bless you both
Christians and Jews do not worship the same God. Where have you been for the last 2000 years?
@@Louis.R Jesus = YHWH
@@Louis.R What do you make of texts like Genesis 18-19 where God accompanies Abraham, and God is also in heaven above? Or Daniel 7:13 where the Son of Man ascends to the Ancient of Days and receives an eternal kingdom, and the worship of men and angels? You can also see Moses not able to see God, and having to hide in a rock and see the glory of God, yet also the elders of Israel sup with God. Why are their references to the Spirit of God, who manifests here on Earth? I think rabbinic Judaism may be missing things, perhaps because of denial of Christ long ago, hence an ignoring of certain Tanakh texts and their implications, due to a strong emotional reaction of rejection against Jesus as the Messiah, embedded in the Talmud and other later texts.
@@collybever the trinitarian nature of God was almost a common thing among pre-Christian Jews of the 1st century
@@collybever "I think rabbinic Judaism may be missing things, perhaps because of denial of Christ long ago..." Voila.
Amazing presentation. One question: what do you think "in the year 70/75/80 etc." refers to on the coins or inscriptions of Abd al-Malik?
P.S. I have now seen the commentaries you've already made. Am looking forward to more
Odom MAKES-UP his own stories..ha ha ha ...and when asked for proof, he runs...🏃🏃🏃
This deserves a full video. I have hypotheses based on the Quran and external sources
@@OdonLafontaine Thank you, I am looking forward to it
the minted coins always refer to the year 78, the year 80. Is it related to year 622 the hijrah year? You mentioned sometime ago that 622 is the year of arab revival instead of the hijrah year
Its when the Arabs in Iraq began rebelling against the Sassanids.
Thanks a lot for this reportage !! I learned a lot about intercession in Islam and about the real meaning of the inscriptions on these coins. Now the problem is how to discuss about all of this with Muslims... maybe not.
Mr Jay. The picture at coin of the ummayyad not symbolised black stone, but sumbolised of person is muhammad.
Mind-blowing stuff. Please do elaborate on the shia/sunni rift. There aren't enough resources besides the std narrative. Minor translation points: Odon says "to pretend" when he means "to claim", and once said "deception" instead of "disappointment".
Tx
The budded Nestorian budded tau cross disappeared. The budded stylized budded stairway is gone. My guess is that Abd al-Malik's coin represents the stone where Isaac was to be sacrificed. It looks like the figure of a man with feet and arms on hips in the center. It's got the feel of an idol, but it may be Allah himself.
The 694 gold coin of Abd al-Malik no longer seems to be abstract circle with a pedestal and rod. It now is a scepter that represents authority. The continuity of the coinage is clear, but the content has changed. They stylized steps harken back now to Muawiya. It isn't cluttered with messaging It is clearly asserting the authority of Abd al-Malik.
Odon, we would like to see some early Abbasid coins. And when next version is coming?
Does anyone know whether the Ummayyads continued to use a solar calendar during the 7th century period of apparent Byzantine economic and socio-political-cultural sway?
This might tell us a lot if the switch to lunar calendar reckoning happened with or after Abd-al-Malik.
Interesting analysis of the evidence as always!
One question: the coin of Abd al-Malik and the stone carving both carefully present the Islamic year, the same year apparently as the SIN would have it be: time begins in 620. The year seems to be coincident with the SIN counting of years because the dating of the coin can be approximately identified by other evidence: the coin dispute with Justinian II. (We can presume therefore that the carving also followed the SIN measuring of time.)
This seems to be a strong argument in favor of the SIN. If the coin were to have said "Year 12", this would be another point undermining the SIN.
So, to counter this Odon would need to find a justification for beginning time in 620. Something certainly happened in that year. The SIN says it was the Hegira. One might question why such an event in the life of the prophet Muhammad would be chosen for the beginning of time but I am confident that Islamic theologians have provided answers to this question. For instance: the moment the Muslim movement went from defense to offense, from humiliation to growing triumph.
Odon, what evidence do we have for an alternative significance of this year?
Surah Fussilat 41 : 37 prohibiting muslim to worship sky objects (sun, moon, stars) is recited by Muhammad (because he's illiterate) 3-5 years (AD 613-615) after he proclaimed as a prophet of allah in AD 610. He copied the Jews' Tanak (Bible: the Old Testament) Exodus 20 : 4, Deuteronomy 4 : 19 & 17 : 3 but Q 6 : 77 muslims used to worship the moon goddess 🌙 & Q 53 : 49 Sirius the brightest star used to be Allah.
William Tisdall says in his book "The Original Sources of the Qur'an - Its Origin In Pagan Legends and Mythology" during that time Muhammad followed some of Jewish's, Christian's & the Sabian belief and practices. At that time he was still befriended wth them. He had access to Jewish's, Christian's & the Sabians (ancient people of Mesopotamia (nowadays Iraq) until Syria) scriptures. He admitted the rightful Inhibitans of Israel in the Palestinian's land (Quran 5: 20-26), Jews & Christian are good friends. They'll go to heaven., but quran 5:82 to hate the Jews but Christians are the kindest to muslim, fight & slaughter the Jews (Sahih Muslim, Book 41, Hadith 6981 & 6985), quran 5:14 to hate Christians, quran 9:29 to fight theJews & Christias, 5 : 51, 1 : 7 the Christians & Jews are the cursed ones. Muhammad ordered muslims to pray 5x/ day to curse them, the Pact of Omar in AD 717, allah turned the Jews into pigs & monkeys Q 2 : 65 & 5 : 60, 7 : 163, rats are made from the Jews Sahih Al Bukhari, book 54, Hadith 524, cut the neck & fingers of the disbelievers Q 8 : 12 & 47 : 3 - 4, to kill the non muslims Sahih Al Bukhari Vo. I, p. 13, Q 9 : 14, to wipe out non muslims Q 6 : 44 - 45 & many more.
The turning point is in AD 624. Muhammad wanted to be accepted as their new prophet (the Jew were waiting for their prophet & the Christian were waiting for the coming of Christ for the 2nd time). When they rejected him he turned against them. Muhammad quarrelled with the Jews in AD 624 in Medina. Muhammad chased, killed & expelled them out of the Arabian Peninsula.
@@joeyahoo4493 I think Odon's thinking will require a different type of thinking. He rejects the idea of a Muhammad as recounted in the SIN. So he would reject the notion of a Muslim community in Mecca around a man carrying the given name Muhammad.
Therefore, Odon needs to find something to replace the significance of the Hegira for the year 622, the year zero of the Islamic calendar. The calendar is well attested. But what does it attest to?
620 or 622?
Anyhow, at the beginning of the 620's, there are events that could have been retrospectively seen as the foundation of something:
- The beginning of Heraclius'offensive against Persia
- The creation of a more or less loose Arab coalition (maybe several) in western Arabia made from Arabs who fled and disbanded from the Persian and Byzantine armies ; I think among this was the faction that eventually took Jerusalem (the faction fueled by the Nazarene sermons)
Note that there are letters on Muawiya's coin IA. We know about the abbreviations of Christ: XC and IC. It may be that IA is Isa, as he is called by Arabs in the Quran. These solidus coins were intended for the Byzantines. This would just be an additional expression of Muawiya's independence.
But 'allah was not a team used by prior Christians. They used 'ILAH and 'al-'ILAH, very distinctly different words despite somewhat of a superficial rhyme.
As the coin has 78 in the year? What did year 1 mean
Good question
I tried to give some answers in the comments below as many people are asking about this topic
We'll surely make a video about the Islamic calendar and the hijr
@@OdonLafontaine thank you odon i am waiting for this topic.
@@OdonLafontaine Yes, this is an important extension to the hypotheses. It could clinch the argument or diminish its persuasiveness.
@@OdonLafontaine will keep a eye out for that
Great work Odon. I think you nailed it. I've got a question though. In standard narrative Ibn al-Zubayr was slain on battlefield. You mentioned he was crucified. Where we could read about it? Thank you
His corpse was crucified
I think I got it from al Tabari
@@OdonLafontaine Thank you very much. Top man. One more thing. When are you going to give us English version of your great book? We've been waiting for it for so long..... ;)
Al-Hajjaj ibn Yousuf under Abd Malik rule is said to have crucified the lifeless body of ibn al-Zubayr when the latter was killed in battle.
@@_John_P thank you
Islam has no relation with Odon's misunderstanding of the coins' inscriptions.
Very interesting! I love this historical study by coin
This is a very convincing interpretation of the historic reality behind the myth.
Simply extraordinary...Odon is our Rasul :-)
VETERAN Jay Smith and Odon just made flicking coins at ala a reality 😂😅🤣👍 bless you both 💙🙏🏻
Magnificent! This explains so much of the data. I might quibble about some minor things, but I think Odon has got the big picture right in all material respects.
Right now in Iran Khameni claim the same thing and he called him self RoheAllah means the Sprit of god
People really need to stop focusing on the past, and focus on the future ,.it's good to know history of humanity because it tends to repeat ..but beyond that , those that kill people for whatever belief started in the past , are crazy , mentally insane .
Hi Jay, I have a view about Abdul Malik Coin. Can you review.
Abdul Malik's second most famous Coin is the Man with a Sword. The coin was issued in response to Justinian issued Coin having image of Jesus in 692.
The response of Abd al Malik was Coin having a Man with a sword. In normal case anybody would assume the image as Abd al Malik's image. But what would Abd al Malik gain with his portrait in response to Jesus image by Justinian? My argument is the picture was represenation of Jesus. The sword in the Coin is a double edged sword. Its having apocalyptic meaning of second coming of Jesus with double edged sword. There are icons of Jesus with double edged sword even now. So the Abd al Malik coin is actually depicting Jesus with a double edged sword in response to Justinian coin of Jesus with a cross in the back ground.
Now the backside of the coin shows a steady pole over the foundation steps instead of cross. What does it mean? The steps are symbol of Golgoltha in Christianity. So the Pole over the Steps is having theological meaning. It makes it clear that the Jesus who was crucified in the Golgoltha is having a single nature ie Monophysite. Another coin shows a circle embedded over this pole. It shows the humanity of Jesus was fully depended on his Divinity. The coin was theological than mere political.
Should the depiction be Jesus, what do you make then of the sassanian like coin I showed around 32:18 ? On the observe, there is an image of the Persian emperor according to the traditionnal persian coinage, but you can see he also has the hand on his sword. I don't think this image could point to Jesus...
But the image of Jesus's word as being a sword (as in Ap19,15) is very interesting. This might be the origin of zulfiqar, the double points sword of Ali. Zulfiqar is "Dhu al faqar", "master of the divider". Faqar is based on the same root as Faruq (divider betwen right and wrong, savior, redeemer, as I explained in my first video on coins with Jay)
@@OdonLafontaine i am afraid, i can't really see a sword in the coin of Sassanid emperor. Can it be part of his dress. A sword and hand actually misses the size in dimension of head.
I am Interested in the timing of Abd al Malik putting the image of Man with a Sword. Its exactly when Justinian put an image of Jesus with background of Cross. The abd al malik response is classical. The Coin is exactly what is Jesus in Revelation. Jesus comes like a King with a double edged sword.
I am sorry that, i dont find anything suitable than it. I can't imagine Abd al Malik putting his own image as a reply to Justinian putting Jesus Image. Its a competition btw Chalcedon (Byzantine) vs Monophysite (Ummayad) coin. The party who had better version of Jesus wins.
The second thing, i want to put in your notice is the backside of Coin. The Pole on the steps with a circle looks exactly like a Monophysite bishop Crossier denoting Moses staff. I cant imagine anything else. The older one of Muwayyah with a T shaped pole is actually a Tau Cross.
@@catholicorthodoxfaith2689 I also thought at first that those coins depicted Jesus, a sort of "apocalyptic" Jesus ready to unleash God's justice unto the evildoers. But I changed my mind as I got more and more elements and figured out the "big picture". I really think this is Abd al Malik - but still, there might be a reference here to the "apocalyptic" Jesus, as Abd al Malik wanted to identify with this figure.
As for the timing, the first coin I found with the "standing caliph figure" (or "apocalyptic" Jesus) is from 690. It is the copper fals I showed in this presentation, the first coin.
Omongan and Jay both of them are Christian soldiers
Fascinating thank you so much
Rock inscription, sorry. Thanks both for your hard work