The RustConf Drama
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 28 พ.ค. 2023
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This whole thing is slowly unravelling. Someone deep inside the organization is on a power trip and will not be happy until the organization is their personal pet.
Same thing happens every time limp-wristed nerds are left in charge. They get bullied by the transes into acting like morons and everything disintegrates.
My guess would be someone from Microsoft, google, meta or amazon. Or all of the above, since they all fund the rust foundation. The controversial proposal that recently came out screams anti competitive corporate behavior.
Was the wording "their personal pet" a conscious choice? Either way, if you take a look at the Rust "community", you might realize why I find that very funny.
@@Reichstaubenminister xD
@@emptydata-xf7ps on the contrary, this all suggest to me that it is much less of the corporate narcissism, and much more of a communist style narcissism.
If you look into the rust foundation members, this is much more their style. They have said publicly that rust is political, and it was clear from the trademark stuff that this was about enforcing their inner group's ideological consensus through ostracization of people who don't do things in the way they want.
They want to control how you talk about rust, where you talk about rust, how you make money with rust. If you don't align with the foundation, they want to be able to bar you from all of these things in whatever way they can. These people are tyrants.
The reddit moderators (probably without realising) pulled a very devious strategy.
They themselves did speculate by assuming that this decision was made in good faith, yet blocked all other speculation on the basis of lacking information.
So assuming good faith is now elevated to the “neutral” position.
And while assuming innocence/good faith is often where one should start, it only makes sense precisely when investigating other possibilities as well. If no other possibilities are considered, this isn’t “innocent until proven guilty” but “innocent, will not be proven guilty”.
yeah, this... is how i feel
Even the HN posts about it were killed. Which isn't surprising, but that gives the whole fiasco even more "Ministry of Truth" vibes.
@@LambdaCalculator Really, how? Were they just downvoted out of existence by rust fanboys or do they have a secret backdoor with @dang?
a lot of people really rush for innocence when it's a group they like, but rush to guilt if it's a group they don't. It's presumption of innocence when provided with an accusation, and an extremely high bar before deciding guilty on serious penalties.
For instance if someone said "I was like totally asked to speak at the rust conference but then they told me to piss off" and no-one's even heard of them before, that's not evidence, you can assume innocence.
This however is fairly well laid out, we know what they did, and there isn't really any reasonable non-shitty reason why they could have.
Good faith assumptions are "you could have meant these two things, I'll assume the one that makes you look better" not "I am going to deny the fact that there are only negative possibilities for why you did this because I'm supposed to assume you only did something good".
However, even then, good faith assumptions really only go in terms of judgement on past actions, a lot of people even use this argument when it comes to things like Mojang being able to ban you from your own privately hosted servers, the Rust trademark thing, etc. because "let's make a good faith assumption they won't do anything evil" which just isn't how that works. That same exact argument would apply just as well to a new law that just said "breathing is illegal, we will administer criminal charges to the best of our ability", i.e. : "everyone is a criminal, we just get to decide who we charge", i.e. : "if we don't like you, you go to jail". People *_should_* make good faith assumptions, people are under no _*obligation*_to and, personally, I'd argue there are many cases where you have an explicit moral obligation not to, since your "we should assume good faith" defenses could push rather horrible shit through the door that could have been stopped.
Assume good faith when reading the past, assume worst possible faith when writing the future.
Rust leadership feels like a bunch of discord / reddit mods that have their own community within the community that's just totally detached from reality
True, its like its just a bunch of jannies (slang for janitors/supporters in communities) are pulling their strings to powertrip. But Rust to me always felt extremely hostile by the way its so aggressively advertised (Rust Terminal, Rust this, Rust that). Like it all feels so elitist ...like it's all about "hey i replaced this product in Rust". Like it feels like the found the solution, and they apply it to every single problem just to use the solution. Feels like the Rust leadership and community is so enthousiased that they dont care Rust is just a tool to make products, but no it's a whole philosophy, a cult. It's so weird and raised red flags from the start. Even the fact that they still dont have any idea how to do async and they let the community deside how to do something that has to do with Language Runtime, something unseen for me for such a core feature (tokio/async-std and their controversies which is also a red flag), it all raises red flags everywhere about the whole Rust project. Everything is so weird despite the language having so great features.
I love Rust's features, I dont like Rust's community and its elitism. Dislike me, but yeah Ive seen worse communities but not communities so eager to do everything in Rust or treat it like a cult.
@@exapsy not including an async runtime, at least initially, is a perfectly reasonable technical choice. There's lots of tradeoffs and rapid changes in tokio (relative to std!) over a short period, and moving it into std would mean a huge chunk of work to get a much smaller and less useful library that gets less updates.
Maybe that happens at some point, but it's pretty low priority given how easily you can get tokio.
You might as well ask why clap, serde, or thiserror isn't in the standard library, because the same arguments can be used.
What do you expect from SJW's and woke individuals?
@@zhamed9587 this is why you learn C
@@zhamed9587 aka gays and pedos ..
Reddit Mod: this is just a miscommunication
Proceeds to stifle more communication
You can't have miscommunication if no one can communicate!
When are they gonna let Tom fix "The R*** Foundation" with his pure genius ?
Tom the genius is going going to speak blazingly fast.
it's gonna become the JDSL foundation 😍😍😍
@@nowheremap jizzdl bank
This comment is not endorsed by the R*** Foundation.
Where does the Tom the Genius joke come from?
Tom isnt gonna be able to fix this one, he's not that kind of genius.
You never know.
@@zweitekonto9654 true, if there's one person to have faith in, it's Tom
Tom is a genius, I'd see he's part of the Rust Project Leadership and plans to turn Rust into JDSL via an elaborate scheme(a) that only Tom can understand - since he's a genius.
The JDSL Foundation would never
they are to busy delivering value
thats why C is my favorite language, no communities, no special cons, no any special groups that could push their bullshit views into it. it just werks
Actually the sheep furry PhD guy who isn't speaking at the conf anymore is involved in C standards. Just wait for people like this to bring their mental midget drama
Incompetent programmers keep reinventing the wheel getting bogged down by design-by-committee? Who knew! /s
I'm not going to be loved for saying this, but Java is similar in that it's professional, we leave our politics at the door and just get on with it.
@@HrHaakon Maven vs Gradle would like to have a word with you
@@pixelsam123
I'm going to leave my politics at the door for once and not have that religious discussion. ANT4EVER! ;)
When I saw the drama unfolding, my first thought was that Prime is going to have fun with it! 😂
I'm not surprised. It just takes one garbage human being to ruin an entire team dynamic. One toxic apple will ruin an entire season's pickings. But still blazingly fast! ♥
Prime at 8:42 about Rust Project and Rust Foundation: "But they are all together and I feel very untrusting of all of it"
Me: "Sounds like typical OOP Coupling headache"
This feels like the foundation hired a bunch of LinkedIn PR and HR "specialists"...
The code of conduct needs a borrow checker
The biggest problem with this situation is that it isn't really a "true one-off". Considering Rust clearly has extremely lacking transparency combined with an increasing frequency of increasingly poor decisions I can only really consider this terrifying for the future of the language. That's sad. Rust fucks and the leadership simply fucks up.
There's time yet to right the ship, but holy fuck.
I'm not into rust boiling community, but I've stumbled upon a video criticizing rusts copyright powergame and their community guidelines that says "we will cancel you if your views on politics aren't the same as ours" some time ago and I think that it's just a continuation of this power trip of higher ups.
well its time to switch to crablang
classic corporate takeover, money and power pours in, crappy people take over. hope something like this doesnt happen to Zig
Zig, Nim, V (whenever they finally get autofree working) would all be decent Rust replacements.
@@airman122469 V is so _wonderful_ to code in. It's like Go, but with the safety of Rust
It's the wokeness virus that plays a role here
@@zhamed9587 spoken like a true troglodyte
@@zhamed9587 not sure about wokeism, but imo too much money and power at stake at this point -attracts bad crowd,.even before that rust had a lot of zealots and idealists flocking to it and pedaling it everywhere - not a good sign. the language has some good and innovative ideas, I even planned to promote it at work, but after all this drama I would rather play with Zig in spare time tbh
30:00
Why in the world would you lock people out of discussing this? That's absurd. I would have expected the pin at the top to would satisfy almost anyone's authoritarian impulses.
Looks like the Rust "community" is full of little groups that have power and are fighting each other purely for any kind of shadowy ego.
is almost like... they are humans or something
@@khhnator more like shitty humans. of course there are always different opinions when people come together but this seems to be duplicitous. instead of talking to the keynote speaker one or more people went behind his back to get him removed from the conference. Rust the language seems very promising but the people in charge can not be trusted
@@khhnator You have to believe that humans can be better than our destructive habits
Is it really surprising when there is so much wokeness from the start?
@@zhamed9587 idk, feels like wokeness destroying itself, because they fight against furry (this weed rat mascot or smth 😂)
I really like your article readings and commenting. It’s not that I can’t read, but as a parent, the time I get to focus my head on something is mostly when cooking and cleaning and then my hands and eyes can’t hold a book 😂
same
maybe they wanted to leave a spot for Tom's talk about JDSL
Bye Rust lang.... I am going for ZIG and GO (THIS COMMENT DOES NOT REPRESENT THE RUST LANG FOUNDATION'S VIEW).
I encourage everyone that doesn’t know about JT to check out his work. He’s a real rockstar and has created many cool things including nushell.
Nushell is such a _joy_ to use. It feels so much more productive and elegant than other things I've used.
As well as Jakt, contributing to SerenityOS! :)
I think RUST core developers should fork the code, called it say Metal Oxidation ... MOX (programming language), and send a big Fork You to the foundation .... just sayin' ... (no typo's there ok ... )
I wouldn't be surprised if the Linux Kernel throws Rust away from its inclusion.
This is barely 1% of the drama you get in the GNU and GCC communities 😂 Strong oppionions everywhere you look
@@ReedoTVKinda agree, but the people in charge of both groups are the same "kind" of people. I barely know anything about them and already knew that stuff like this was going to happen Just based on their "identities". not even trying to be political, but this was obvious. people always complain about leaders like Linus, but he will always be infinitely better than the types of leaders projects like this have.
@@ReedoTV At the moment it is 1% drama and Rust isn't much used in the Kernel yet. But what if it gets worse and Rust is an important part in Linux? Compared to GNU and GCC, Rust integration is in early stage and can easily be abandoned without problems.
I really hope they do. Purge the cancer
the rust community just gives me the vibe that they prefer bsd cuck licenses. they should get this fedshit out of the kernel.
I'm really confused why there's two entities like Rust Foundation and Rust Project, why are they needed at all?
Why are they trying to police the community? No other language seems to have such structures (afaik at least), why does Rust need it?
I would think that the foundation is basically sponsoring the project and creating an environment in which the project can get its work done, instead of having to care about all the financial and commercial stuff, conferences and so on.
And if it is this way, then members of the foundation thought this talk would be a great addition to the conference and the project, when they heard about it, felt it would cause public pressure to nudge them into a direction they don't want to go, or create some kind of debate they don't want to be a part of, so they asked it to be demoted from being a key note to a usual talk, and that's a sensible ask, as a key note, in most conferences for other languages or ecosystems, is foreshadowing key developments.
Almost any other languages has it's own organization or commision, etc... The thing is, that in other languages the sh*t never hits the fan so loud like in Rust does
I started learning Rust just before all this drama began and I’ve held off continuing. I’m just not into this whole petty in group / out group nonsense. I don’t know if it’s an individual or a subset of Rust leadership but it’s remarkable how how quickly they are tanking the reputation of the language.
just ignore the community and staff, honestly. That's all you need to do. I personally wish I could contribute back to Rust, but ethically I can't
power tripping leftists that were bullied in school.
If only there was a way to learn a language without becoming involved in politics…wait
I agree with a guy on Reddit saying that someone took ownership of the decision but now they've lost track of who is holding it....
Oh wait! I think there's a programming language that can help with this....
John Stuart Mill case against censorship is basically the last 5 minutes of the stream
The game is now FIND THE COVERT NARCISSIST, which is a game you NEVER want to play.
we always called it secret hitler / resistance in college.... good to know my childhood games are available in real life
Easy fix, entire leadership needs to be replaced
@@luctielen I.e., a fork.
@@ThePrimeTimeageni love playing secret hitler. First time was last year in college
oh god when i read this i said "AMOGUS" out loud
Rust devs can make Rust, but can't debug who is going on a power trip in their org.
Watching ThePrime struggling reading that blog post make me feel better hahaha (they tend to write in a over complicated way, and with uncommon words)
"deigned" lol
deigned is perfect though for implying elitism, it's a word for lords and royalty making a decision.
C# doesn't have this problem.
Yah.. but.. it's C#.. nuff said.
@@b3owu1f Exactly! Its C#! No language can be as functioning as C#.
@@enis7x Haha.. you read my comment the wrong way.. or I am missing your sarcasm.. but yah.. c# is the worse. lol. I'd take Java over it any day of the week and twice on Sunday.. but then there is Go.. which is miles ahead of Java.. so.. :D
@@b3owu1f Everyone has their preferences. I'm not one to get into software debates online. I'm just teasing Primegen because he doesn't like C#.
@@b3owu1fjust means u havent actually worked with c#
I wouldn’t be surprised if they rejected Greg because he’s a pastor.
That would enrage a lot of people
JT’s awesome. They were part of both the Rust and Typescript core team, they are the co-creator of Nushell (a fantastic shell/language you should try) and Jakt (the new language for SerenityOS).
wow, didn't know that about jt, very cool to hear
I'm sorry but you will never convince me to talk about single guy "they". You wan't to participate in his delusion go, but I will never recognize single person as "they".
THEY
He would be great to interview (just in general)
@@_idiotthats correct English tho?
Btw d has comptime. Also maybe even easier interop than zig because you can use comptime to dynamically create bindings.
Only Uncle Bob spends 1 min of preparation for 1 hour conference talk
I would like to see compile time code running in Rust, but not at the expense of macros.
JT is for example one of the authors of nushell. He also works on the "Jakt" Programming Language, which is part of Serenity OS.
*The Sweater Song by Weezer plays softly in the background*
Too many cooks spoil the soup.
To be clear: Oracle in general has been pretty good to Java. Their main request for JEE was just:
- the java and javax namespaces are magic: They mean that it's an internal java package, so please respect that
Which is fine, because that's what it means. So when JEE became free software, that was the one thing that they asked the Eclipse Foundation to do, and the Eclipse Foundation talked it out with Oracle, and found a solution: One "we're jakarta now" release, that didn't change anything, one that was just the namespace change, and then they would start going forward without Oracle. Which works. It wasn't a question of cancelling, or suing or being dicks. They just hashed it all out behind closed doors like GOSH DARNED ADULTS DO.
Oracle has in deeds been pretty darned okay to Java. If Oracle took over Rust, it may be a lot better tbh. You don't see Oracle get buttsore over Azure Loves Java stickers featuring the Duke (Java's mascot), for example, while the R*** Foundation explicitly disallowed that.
I don't feel we're asking for much if we say "hey do you mind being more cooperative and less litigous than ORACLE?" because quite frankly that shouldn't be a lot to ask for.
No one hinders Oracle to make teh "Duke" Unfree....look what they do to people that use the "Javascript" word in their branding!
@@TremereTT
And yet they haven't, which means that they're better than the crabby foundation.
@@HrHaakonI wouldn't accolade Oracle over being better than the "R##t" foundation.
@@TremereTT
See the last line in my original post: Being less litiguous than Oracle doesn't seem like a big ask, but...
You did cover this earlier!? Or was that on your other channel?
"Deigned Deigned I'm an island boy" ( Snoopy Doggy - I'm spechless)
hah
This is sad. For once I find a language I like it goes bananas for whatever humans reasons.
7:20 that's their way of feeling like they got a borrow checker for their speech 😅
Prime : "what the fuck TJ, it's 2AM."
TJ : "new Rust drama just dropped"
Prime : "TJ... it is 2AM, I am sleeping, and you called to tell me about the Rust Foundation."
TJ : "Wake the fuck up samurai, the foundation's got a language to burn"
Pleasantly surprised to see Prime ripping on jannies at the end of this video, very nice. Remember folks, they do it for free.
Yeah, and just think about what they do get in return, and contemplate how that may often go to their heads.
"New humans get disposed of by... time". I love this quote lol.
2 years ago I predicted a migration from Rust to Zig and Odin within 5 years. I now predict it will accelerate. Rust got it’s hype train mostly due to lack of better C/C++ alternatives - the closer Zig and Odin get to 1.0 and overall ecosystem maturity, the more Rust developers will end up migrating to them. They are the better alternatives that didn’t exist before when Rust was on the rise. And increasingly, Rust leadership keeps dropping balls like that (following the whole legal fiasco that drove alienation of so much of its own community) - The Rust world is collapsing under the weight of it’s own mismanagement.
I agree. I’m personally probably going to be migrating to Zig if this tot continues.
If Zig and Odin, which are both super new and with basically no production use, are in consideration, then why not Nim? It's super old, established, used in production in e.g. Reddit, compiles on basically anything, targets Wasm as well as native, and has a ton of safety features as well as being able to disable GC.
@@yawaramin4771 I just looked at Nim and I see no reason ever to use Typescript again.
Soo.. TJ message you about a tweet from a guy named JT? Am I supposed to believe that's just a coincidence and that JT is in fact NOT TJ?
We've never seen both together in the same room...
07:50 oh Oracle. When I worked at Oracle, the disclaimer wouldn't fit in a tweet so ... yeah, no tweeting about Oracle while you work there 😅
You can't spell trust without crab
imagine if all that effort went to crab lang instead of rust. biggest pikachu face from rust leadership ever
comment removed on every comment, f those mods like wtf
It's like I'm 14 again. Really is a bunch of ridiculous stuff coming out the Rust side of the world. The saddest part to me is all this childish behavior is being entertained. Really makes me understand why somebody like Jon Blow wants nothing to do with open source and behaves the way he does.
prime , will you try hoon programming anytime soon ?
Has anyone else noticed that he highlights everything but the first and last letter? Or is it just my 'tism showing.
I'm still new to rust and lost interest in it after this drama unfolding, will keep an eye on rust to see where it goes.
JDSLConf never had these issues
Hello again Mr. Prime!
Any momentum that Rust had is now one glowing red break. Without any rust on it.
JT works on the nushell and does a bunch of YT videos.
Common Lisp compile time environment is pretty great
Feels like the Rust adventure is spiraling out of relevance. Need new neutral leadership asap to save it.
Does C++ have a larger learning curve compared to Rust? Or, is it the other way around? Also, between the two which is considered to be a smaller language?
C++ is very older, bigger and has a steeper learning curve, made bumpy by various bad learning resources and courses out there.
C++ has a learning staircase. It's far from a smooth curve
They need Tom to come sort this out
So is the crusty crab lang dead or not?
primeagen lost me at "going going"🤣
transparency in healty community
I'm really thinking about ditching Rust now.
Ah well, looks like I'll go learn something else instead.
I find it fascinating that JDSL hasn’t had any of these issues
Here's hoping the drama doesn't ruin my favorite language.
JT is the main contributor of Nushell (popular shell written in Rust) and also does some YT on the side @SystemsWithJT and often covers systems programming.
they need someone like Linus Trovalds at the helm.
Or Tom.
Feels like stackoverflow 😂
Should have been under the Mozilla foundation at least they have the experience of running a foundation through the good and bad.
ThePhd is JeanHeyd Meneide
The moment when he sees the comments at 29:40
Rage quit because he did not get to hold his keynote, oh no.
Programming languages are the tech equivalent of holy documents. Ecumenical disagreements and schisms are inevitable.
Rust Gate?
voldemortlang
can't wait for taboolang, which you're not allowed to talk about in any context.
"Things you can say in 5 words, you say in 50"
- Literally Rust code 7:12
Where I work about once a year they ask/remind employees that sites like Glassdoor exist and we can leave reviews. I think that's a decent way to help entice more positive/neutral reviews.
On the negative review side I recall a coworker getting walked out and the following morning a review was circulated among employees, management didn't send it around, another coworker saw it and shared it for lols.
It highlighted the issue Glassdoor has, this former employee posted a very negative review hours after he was walked out. Of course they failed to mention in the review that they were fired due to looking at explicit content on their work computer during business hours.
I haven't checked but I do believe they challenged and got the review pulled down.
I suspect Greg was denied for some political reasons which infuriates me.
clouds and fists
The worst thing it can happen is that the Organization is woke on the inside
And in that case, forking the project is the only solution
Okay, I made it to 16:58 in the video... could someone just give me the skinny on what the hell is actually the point?
I unironically avoid rust because of shit like this as it signals problems with the language’s longevity. Hopefully somebody sane and with the willpower to deal with the inevitable hate forks it and carries the torch to somewhere great
CrabLang
@@bbourbaki >long long
This is what I am wondering.. is the language itself going to fall apart now.. I mean.. sorry.. the language as it is right now.. works.. but if it already has this much drama around those in charge with its future.. what's that say about the longevity of the language. We can use it as is right now.. and that's fine.. but will the language go to crap with all these different drama strings unfolding.
@@JorgetePanete >unsigned long long int
@@antongorov5275 😭😭😭
You get the feeling the Rust Org is trying to court micro$oft into a buy-out .....
This is why good projects have a single person with a giant ego at their helm. This whole subversive BS takeover of mid-upper level management is just a painful death of all things good.
Good projects have a single person with little to no ego at their helm.
@@tourdesource Guys with no ego get run over too easily (unless they're also some kind of saint). So yes, a saint running the project would be nice. But short of that, I'll take the imperfect guy with the ego over the imperfect guy who's a doormat.
If what you're saying is we need more saints, then I agree.
Tom would be the best leader.
@@tourdesource Like Linus Torvalds, perhaps? 😂 I think you need someone who is a bit of an asshole to run the great project successfully.
22:30 I fully expect he has not recognized the outright disgusting levels of irony in him saying this despite his write off of his strawman of the "just say no to code challenges" guy being "not everyone can just turn down a job offer like that, especially not if it's a prestigious company and it's a good offer!"
Business will kill every project...
Yeah, when the rules are constantly changing or are just not clear at all, dont play. Wise move
Yeah, I’m getting rather frustrated with the Rust community. This is not a good trend.
Aside from the drama: Comptime Programming? Why does everybody insist on re-inventing things that Lisp already had sixty years ago?
It is an elitist problem. People that know they aren't as smart as their community worry about this type of thing as they are afraid of appearing as smart as they are rather than the appearance, they imagine they are pulling off.
bro what? this comment has strong "Have you ever had a dream like this?" energy
Paraphrased:
This is what happens when someone feels less smart than other people in the same organisation and do anything they can to appear as smart to the others. But what they're doing makes them look even dumber.
A lot of things happened with Rust, personally I really don't know if is good or bad decisions.. a lot of people sad and angry... but I'll continue to study Rust and take a look more in Zig and I its a bad idea there's more than one version of Rust, people sad and frustrate create a fork and in the end has multiple versions, seems like java.. its not good way!
The swedish ö is like the u in suck, buck, or other .{1}uck sounds.
You talk about comptime in Zig, but D's CT is even more powerful