I've logged professionally for over 30 years. I mix 40 to 1 and add 1 iz of marvel mystery oil per gallon of gas and ONLY NON ETHANOL gas. My saws cut 3 to 4 million feet a year with no issues. Good job on the video
Is the one ounce of Marvel additional to the 40:1 mix or part of it? 40:1 is 3.2 oz of oil to 1 gallon of gas. For one gallon did you add 3.2 oz of oil plus 1 oz of marvle making a total of 4.2 Oz per gallon of gas?
You should retune your carburetor after changing to 25-1 ratio. You're putting more oil in and less gas so you have to richen the carb settings to get the same amount of gas into the cylinder. By not making the carb adjustments you are running the saw leaner which causes more heat everytime. If you make the proper carb adjustments you well gain a bit of power from the extra oil sealing the piston better. Great video! It certainly shows the need to retune after changing gas/oil ratios.
if you change your carb mixture then your adding more gas. therefore negating the baseline. might as well just run 50:1 and be safe. no added benefit here.
@flagulantmichael If you increase the oil in your gas oil mixture, then you have less gas and more oil therfore the need for the carb adjustment in order to get the same amount of gas into the engine. You will use slightly more gas/oil mixture but the same amount of gas.
@@flagulantmichaelthe added benefit is your actually getting enuff lubrication. He took it too far. 40:1 is perfect. Only reason for 50:1 is to meet epa regulations. Take two brand new saws. Run 1 50:1 and run one 40:1. I got a grand on the 40:1 lasting longer
I have a poulan 3400 from 1983 that I run. Manufacture recommends 16:1 ratio! That's what I always ran and never had a problem. Smoked during warm-up, but cleared during sawing. After about 35 yrs I took it apart to put in new rings and the piston and cylinder walls were in perfect shape. The cylinder is NOT chrome or nickasil plated either. Was no ridge on cylinder from ring wear. Most of its life I used Cenex two stroke oil.... my Dad was a manager at a Cenex location. I don't think more oil makes saw run hotter. If that was the case, my saw would have overheated. My saw ran cool. The carb was adjusted to the mixture it was running. Ran great. Dealer would always give me hard time. Wanted to sell me new saw every time I stopped in for new chain or bar. Told him I'd buy new saw when my poulan wore out. It's still going and he died waiting.
Hey Todd! That’s great info. I wanted to show a video on the difference if the carb was not adjusted. To make up for the oil increase long term, I would want to make adjustments to the carb. Cheers!
Don't die waiting peeps. Moral of the story. Get your ass better...in all facets of life. You may smoke a little at first, but long with all your heart to run smooth.....chop that wood
I wanted to thank you, DonyBoy and Steve (Steve's Small Engine Saloon). Because of you guys, I was able to pick up and quickly diagnose and fix a Husky Rancher 55 for a total of $50. Loving my "new" saw. All it needed was a thorough cleaning to release a stuck break and fiddling with the coil to get spark back. Starts and runs great!
I run 25:1 and i tune them for 25:1 for 30+ years now, the oldest saws i have are 22 years old bought new together,thousants of hours,i used to make a living cuting and selling firewood,just my 2 cents
Thank you. If you can get the public to understand this you have truly accomplished something. That being said, if you had the ability to richen fuel to air ratio you could get the temperatures back to nearly equal. Since the carb adjustments are pegged or fixed we normally can’t do that. Having worked in the industry I have had a hard time getting public to understand that more oil is not better. With today’s oils wear is not caused by lack of lubrication it is caused by dirt. Air filter maintenance is critical for long life.
Absolutely. Great points. I would suggest running more oil and then altering a perfect carb adjustment for 50:1 to compensate for temperature would be counter productive. You’re exactly right. Today’s oils are so good. Personally, I’m going to trust the engineering done by Stihl, Husqvarna, Echo etc. Cheers!
I have an Echo PB-251 hand held blower that I run at least an hour a week and for hours on end in the fall..:since 2008. It starts 3rd pull every time. Original plug and I’ve never removed the air filter. It’s caked with nasty dirt and debris. It’s been abused, knocked over, dropped and ran hot. I’d say it’s lasted a long time. Still going strong too. And I’ve never touched the air filter. I actually just looked at it today for the first time. I sort of just forgot about it. And I’m a believer in good maintenance.
@@SuperJacobe thats not true and the fact that you think so tells me you dont understand anything about modern 2 cycle mix... i mean some of it has to do with emissions, but it mostly has to do with the invention of modern 2 cycle mix which has an extremely high flash point and doesnt burn off as easily as conventional 30w oils that were used when 25:1 was the most common mix ratio... its idiots like you who talk out their ass without knowing a damn thing... CARBON LOADING WILL KILL YOUR SAWS LONG BEFORE MY SAWS DIE OF HEAT
With my engineering and mechanic background I have found out a long time ago that a 40 to one mix gives the best lubrication to all the parts in the engine. At 50 to 1 the wrist pin really needs more oil film. Especially at high RPM. The manufactures recommend 50 to 1 to make the EPA a little happier.... As a side note: When wrenching on small bore 2 stroke dirt bikes its amazing how many rebuilds are due to the owners running 100 to 1 Amsoil... Just my experience. I recommend at least 40 to 1.
@@devlinsemmler8236 Stihl, like all manufactures is under EPA pressure to recommend 50 to 1. It's not for engiine longevity so much as it is to satisfy emissions standards.
@@zackeryeckenrod6549 Anytime I tore down an engine that ran 50 to 1, I noticed upon inspection the wrist pin especially does not get quite enough lubrication. Yep 40 to 1 is the way to go. Screw the EPA.
I’ve always used 50:1 in my Stihl equipment 100% Stihl standard oil (Blue) which I still can buy outside of Stihl dealers in Australia as superseded to the Red colour, never has a problem never changed a spark plug only the arrester was blocked once on my FS55 my FS85 okay. Arresters are bad in Home 3 FS 38 -45 due to home users not using full throttle, and really they wouldn’t.
Ran all my Huskys on 50 to 1 mix. Still do. Never looked likeblowing one up. Used to log full time. 2 years out of a spark plug was common. Why smoke yourself out for no reason. Used to have folks try all kinds of things out. Saws were often running to rich and gutless. 50 to 1 is what Husky mauals say and its good enough for me. My old 372 loves it.
I grew up selling firewood , my dad ran an 028 and 2 029s. Early 80s models. He ran 50:1 til the end. They survived from the early 80s until the late 2000s….. never rebuilt. Keep the chain sharp, air filter clean. Run an appropriate sized bar … and it’s amazing…. The saws lasted 30 years. Matter of fact the first 10 years was tree service and pulp wooding, and transitioned to only 20 chord a year fire wood the last 10 year or so.
Proper sharpening. 32 to 1 mixture. Original 372 Husqvarna. Usied logging felling large hardwood timber. Saw ran awesome for 20 plus years. Got run over by a log forwarder. Busted both cases. Pulled the crankshaft out put in a couple cases that I bought from a buddy. That was five years ago still running strong. Proper sharpening.
There’s definitely a sweet spot. I have a lot of hours working on chainsaws, I see a lot of saws blown up on 50:1. 40:1 or 32:1 seem to make them last much longer form what I’ve seen
i dont buy that. i have 7 years on a multitude of echo and redmax equipment. not 1 issue. 50 to 1 syn redmax oil too many variables to make that determination 50 to 1 is what the manufacturer says. at least on modern stuff. you had this vid to show excess heat generated. most blow ups in small equipment are user errors, poor mix, old gas..no maint....etc. but if you feel better at 25 to 1 go ahead. wasting money and more smoke is what I see.
Our landscape company used 50:1 for many years, and we would throw out blowers every year due to low compression. A mechanic recommended that we switch to 40:1 ratio (more oil), richen our carburetors up, and remove our spark arrestor screens. Spark plugs are cheaper than engines. We have had these same old blowers for at 40:1 for DECADES ever since we did that. We no longer replace equipment each year. Our equipment now is discarded/sold when it becomes obsolete and we can't buy parts for it - not because the engines were toast like they were annually, at 50:1. We have been in the landscape business since the early 2000's. We will NOT change to less oil (50:1), to please CARB (california air resource board), or the EPA. We do what we must for our profit margins.
We ran 2-stroke racing bikes at all different oil mixtures back in the day. We jetted for the day. The main issue with running the castor bean oil we favored at 16:1 or thicker was fouling spark plugs when you throttled down. Man, this brings back memories.
gotta love that Klotz Benol... i actually prefer the supertechniplate, and its what i run in my saw now... you are right about one thing... castor bean oil definitely needs RPM to burn cleanly
I worked for a Ford New Holland dealership that took on McCulloch chainsaws. The service representative and I had this discussion and what he told me makes 100% sense to me. To much oil has a longer flash point which creates more heat than less oil with a shorter flashpoint. It simply takes longer to burn more oil and makes more heat. I did enjoy this video which backs this up.
The service rep was wrong. Two stroke oils are designed to withstand combustion chamber temperatures without burning. If the oil were to burn it would lose its lubricating qualities. Again: two stroke oils are designed to exit the exhaust port unburned.
I think going from a 50:1 to a 25:1 is a pretty radical step. Using XP Series Husqvarna saws and 50:1 synthetic oil, I got damage over time (a lot of time but a $175 parts rebuilt …) I’ve changed to 40:1 and things seem to be much better
The reason for the higher temps is do to the extra oil raising the compression. The reason it didn't have the same power is because it was running richer. The jets would have to be turned in a little on the richer mix to get the power up. Some thoughts from an old logger.
such an underrated comment, as well as maybe the chain got just a little duller, so the engine had to work just a tiny bit more, as well as it was just one run, so it was not the average of like 10 runs, so differences in user inputs could have also bee the cause, but I agree with you, it needed just a bit of tuning, but still,
Richer in Oil, Leaner in Fuel. The extra oil would certainly reduce power somewhat because there is less Fuel which is what provides the power. Additional carbon buildup over time also. I wouldn't call this experiment absolutely conclusive, you would have to more precisely control load with each cut as that is probably the biggest variable. The operator may feel like he's applying 'similar' load with each cut but a variety of things such as changes in the log dimensions over its length, changes in Grain and density, and etc. would result in less than wholly accurate tests. I don't fault Dave's attempt to test, he doesn't have a lab and equipment to control the variables and did the best anyone could do without the proper instrumentation. There was a time when 16:1 and 32:1 mix ratios were common. With modern lubricants, modern materials and modern methods that produce better manufacturing tolerances, we don't need that much oil today. In any case it makes sense that less fuel would result in higher temps, that's what happens when you introduce less fuel to one of these engines.
@@Qwertyuiop-wg5xu I always add a little extra oil to my mix. and after 52 years logging I have never blew up a saw. My brother who used to log with me wouldn't add extra oil blew up a good many saws. Common sense is uncommon.
@@ajw6715 i kind of agree, really, like let it run a bit richer on oil rather than maybe running a bit leaner, even though it might get less strong, but still, you would tune you saw on the mix you have, lets say you are running a 40 to 1, you will tune it while it has 40to1 mixed in it, not you tune it with 50 to 1, then run it on 40to1, like, I am sure adding just a bit more oil will not be anywhere close to buying a new saw each few years, it definitely is better to be on the safer side, plus it is not as if you are damaging anything since you are still around 30 or 40 to 1, it is not as if you are going with 10 to 1 or something
I ran a 72cc Chinese auger at 50:1 when they recommended 25:1. After less than 8 running hours, the engine gave out and the piston has groves in it. I just bought another one and will be running it as recommended, 25:1. It seems to reason that even though it may run at a bit higher temperature, the additional oil helps lube the working parts better than 50:1, making it last longer.
good work I was initially surprised by the result :) a little late to the comments section here but i would say the higher temp is likely due to a leaning of the fuel ratio due to the extra oil. Also, too much oil will cause the needle roller bearings to "skip" or "skid" rather than rolling, this causes wear on your bearings. Oil technology and metal/machining quality also affect the oil ratios. Each saw make and model has its own recommended mixtures for a reason :) The pure lubrication aspect of the oil happens at around 100:1 then there is the cleaning/washing away of contaminants that needs a little more and finally there is a sealing/cushioning component to the oil and you end up at 50:1 - its also a very convenient ratio to mix. Originally Husqvarna stated that you needed Husqvarna oil at 50:1, other 2stroke oil at 33:1 and monoSAE30 oil at 25:1. Now, many years later the manual reads "air cooled 2stroke oil at 50:1", on all their saws. Many Chinese saws say 25:1 simply because the tolerances aren't as good and generally the oil quality is unregulated. It would be interesting to re do the test, re tuning and re plug the saw for the 25:1 and see what happens. Well laid our format - instant sub from me mate
You keep doin what your doin and I’ll keep mixing my oil 20:1 and using my 21 year old cub cadet weed eater and 12 year old stihl saws that have a immaculate piston and cylinder yea they have a little extra carbon on the piston and it blows a little smoke
40:1 Premium Mineral Oil ( WITH API-TC/JASO-FB RATING ) with a Premium 98 Octane Fuel. Perfect for bigger saws optimal performance and reliability, I also use a mixture of either Husqvarna or Stihl Bar & chain oil with a Diesel SAE 40 engine oil mixed together ( 50/50 for colder conditions and 75/25 for average temperatures, on hot days I’ll run a pure bar and chain oil ) this is all just my personal preference based off of my experience not only felling trees but working as a OPE Specialist in the past. Though if your just a homeowner doing annual maintenance around your property always listen to your husqvarna or stihl dealer if you know nothing about cars you refer to the owners manual not billy on the internet for what oil and how much to put in (PLEASE DONT USE ETHANOL FUEL IT EATS YOUR FUEL LINES AND RUBBER COMPONENTS!)
I have seen many demolition saws pick up a piston using 50:1, a higher temp isn't always a bad thing as long as its not too hot, hotter will bur the excess oil better. I have used 25:1 in all my 2 strokes for 45 years, no ill effects.
Same thing here, Harry. I burnt up two Husqvarnas over a 20 year period running 50:1 temporarily just for a test, then went back to 30:1 and hundreds of cords of firewood later, never had a problem. It certainly appears that the saw chain in this test got duller with each test cut. The last big log cut took 30% longer than the first big log cut using the 25:1 mix. It would be interesting to see the 25:1 test run first when the chain is sharper, then run the 50:1.
My two cents. I'm recently retired so I've been around a while and seen a few things. Just so you know Im not a kid writing this or some keyboard expert. I recommend a 32:1 ratio fuel mixture. That's the only ratio I use. That's 4 ounces of oil to one gallon of gas. I have an Echo leaf blower that my late brother purchased back in the 1980s and I still use it occasionally. Back in the 1960s -70s it was recommended to use a 16:1 ratio mixture. That's 8 ounces of oil to one gallon of gas. Lots of smoke. Side Notes: I was surprised that the engine temperature was higher with the 25:1 (I thought it would be lower, I don't know what those temperature and ml are, here in America we use the standard system. Not sure what country you are in). Not surprised less power, but That's the trade off for a well lubed engine. Remember, the ONLY lube the engine gets is what you put in it. Never in Hell will I run a 50:1 ratio mixture in ANY 2-cycle engine. I know a woman that purchased a new string trimmer and used a 50:1 mixture as manufacturer recommended. It lasted one month after the warranty expired then locked up. They would not replace it. .
I always just use what the manufacturer recommends. I have a Stihl I bought new about 7 years ago, always used the Motomix 50:1. I have a couple of other 2 cycle machines that call for 40:1, so I use the premix or occasionally mix my fuel from pump gas (Sunoco 93) if I’m using it a lot of it. Maintenance is key! My motto with fuel or any fluids is: “when in doubt, DUMP it OUT”. Real simple, old fuel of just about any kind, even mixed, can be poured into my truck which is a 17 year old Dodge Heavy Duty which gets 12mpg. It’s gone in no time and diluted with frequent trips to the gas station. Just about any car will burn up old gas and not suffer the consequences, but some may balk at doing this with a precious new car. In that case, offer it to a friend or teenage driver who is too cheap to pay for their own in gasoline. In any case, if you be sure your fuel is fresh and mixed properly, you will rarely see any problems with power equipment. One run with bad fuel and it can be game over.
the manufacturers are between a rock and a hard place in regards to 2 cycle engines. Back when I was a kid, outboards ran as rich as 16 to 1 and now I have some synthetic oil that is recommended at 100 to 1! I believe that Californicate is outlawing all two cycles in the next couple of years, that sure will spur on the rebuilding parts business. I suspect that small differences (5 degrees in this example) are not significant but larger ones are (say about 50 degrees or so). I don't think that using a 40 to 1 oil in a 50/1 saw is gotta hurt anything and I think that test might be more useful. If you have two saws on yer truck, one 40, the other 50 are you goin' to carry two separate gas cans? I doubt if you have any 24/1 equipment left. One advantage to using my old lawnboy mower was that mosquitoes weren't a problem when mowing. Dang things lasted forever, way longer than the Chiner engine mowers sold now, end came when I broke the carb and couldn't get a new one.
In the early 1970s we ran 16:1 in our chainsaws. After 25 years of hard use they showed very little wear. I have seen what happens to saws people run at 50:1. It scuffs pistons, wears out seals, and bearings don't last. After using them and fixing them as well as motorcycles, it is QUITE obvious to me that more oil is better. Remember, it's the tree hugger, EPA and manufacturer that wants 50:1. Your saw and bike dont!
That's funny. I've been running 50-60 to 1 on my motorcycles since the 90s and every time I do a top end and I can peek in the crankcase, I'm always astonished at how much oil is in there, and how it's everywhere. Very different than your experiences.
. If you run to much oil in a modern saw it will run lean they are jetted for 50/1. Also a lot of guys dont know how to adjust a saw properly they are usually to lean or to rich.
You are correct Greg. We went from 50:1 to 40:1, and we don't replace engines annually at our landscape company. At 50:1, we were tossing equipment out due to low compression. This is one of those issues that I tell people, but I don't push it on them - because they need to learn on their own. I spent so many years and so many thousands of dollars for our company buying new equipment - and this is a lesson that everyone should learn on their own. 50:1 is NOT ENOUGH oil to properly lubricate these engines, especially when wide open for long, sustained durations. 40:1 is the "sweet spot." A spark plug replacement is cheaper than an engine replacement. We remove all spark arrestor screens on all equipment, since concrete can't catch on fire. We enrichen all carbs by using chinese tools purchased from the internet. I will never debate this with anyone; We've been doing this for decades. If a worker changes the mixture from 40:1 to 50:1, he is terminated instantly.
@@garrettstevensen2467 Good for you. You're doing what works for you. Like you, I always remove the spark arrestor screens, and change my sparkplugs at the first sign of trouble. I did run 50:1 for a while as recommended by Stihl but have gone back to 40:1 as I was suspicious. The EPA, which makes the rules, doesn't give a damn about the longevity of my equipment.
I do random tinkering. (I've fixed VCRs, Hoverboards, chainsaws, lawnmowers, reel mowers, PS3s, vacuum cleaners, home plumbing, home electrical (120V & 240V), my motorcycle was a 1980 Honda CX500D that I bought for $200 because the owner said he couldn't make it run. It had a broken wire preventing turning 12V into kV for spark. That was it. It ran great and I got my M rating with it.) A guy I was talking with found out I do random tinkering and asked me if I could look at his quad (but not the glutes). Anyway, he was told that his 2-cycle bike wasn't oiling properly, so he was told to just mix oil with the fuel and he did that and the bike stopped running and the two of them couldn't get it fired up again. So I said I'll take a look at it, and he dropped it off. I had a guess that the oiler was oiling, and by mixing oil in with the fuel AND having the oiler still connected, I had a hunch that the crankshaft literally filled with oil. So, what I did: I emptied the fuel tank. I disconnected the oiler tube from the engine block and determined that oil at least got to that point. I emptied the oil tank. I removed the spark plug. I hung the bike up with a winch to a tree, to turn the engine upside down to let the oil drain out of the engine, and drain it did. It was seriously pooled oil in the crankcase. I let the bike back down onto its own wheels. I cleaned the carb with compressed air after ensuring it needed no parts replaced. I reconnected the oiler tube. I filled the oil tank with 2-cycle oil. I filled the gas tank with regular 87 Octane. I reinstalled the spark plug. Bike fired right up and smoked a bit as it cooked off the last of the liquid oil in the engine. I ran it around the yard for ~30 minutes. All seemed well, I sent him video of it working and he came and picked it up. I told him to hold off on thanking me until he trialed it for a solid weekend. The following week he thanked me, it worked great. I watch videos like this because I hate sitcoms and "regularly scheduled programming". "But, how are you able to see emergency messages?" A one-time payment of $80 buys a tv antenna that gives free tv for years if I want to watch it, but youtube literally covers everything nowadays.
Yep I use the Wal mart super tech and Murphy corn gas. 1/2 pint to every gallon of gas. One thing that really helps the older saws is to convert them to electronic ignition.
5.46 ounces API-TCW3 oil to 2.0 gallons gas/petrol for 15 years without a problem. Then one day used farmer's old barn 2TC oil & cost me a new piston & rings. STIHL/Husqvarna/Oleo Shell Nautilus two stroke oils cost far less when purchased in 5 litre containers.
Some of my 2-stroke engines require 40:1 and some require 50:1. I just mix 40:1 for everything. Even my old McCulloch gas trimmer still runs fine after 28 years. I wouldn't expect 25:1 to work very well, however. Thanks for sharing your test results
25:1 is a holdover from the days before engineered 2 cycle oil... back then, you would mix straight 30w with your gas. 30w burns off quickly so you needed more of it to properly lubricate the engine. With modern 2 cycle oils, thats not necessary because they have a much higher flash point. But some people cant seem to grasp that concept
One engine does not require more oil than another. You have got to truly understand two stroke engines or realize this. 50:1 oil mixes is great for every engine. A good example is my Shindaiwa has 25:1 embossed right into the fuel tank cap. The oil they sell for it is 50:1. The 25:1 was for other countries where they don’t have access to the high quality oil used in the rest of the world.
@@rickringler5021 Some engines do recommend more. Think what you want. I prefer 40:1. My grass trimmer is a 1994 model. My 4 chainsaws are 2005 & older. Everything runs great on a cheap 2-stroke oil @ 40:1. I would never go 50:1, but that's me.
@@driftlesshunter9200 not to be disrespectful in any way, but you, and most folks do not understand two cycle engines. They are a completely different critter. If you have attended service schools for fourty year put on by Stihl, Husqvarna, Honda, Echo and Shindaiwa you would be knowledgeable on the subject. Two stroke engines and their needs and failures is what they needed their technicians to understand.
@@rickringler5021 The key is non-ethanol fuel. I'm not losing sleep over 40:1 vs 50:1. I know what works well with my older equipment. If you prefer 50:1, so be it. You're the expert. I prefer 40:1 regardless of what the experts say. Some of my 2-strokes have a 40:1 recommendation. They sell pre-measured containers for a 40:1 mix. Whatever you think does not apply to all engines.
I'm not really into chainsaws but motorized bicycles, I've learned that there's a lot of similarities between the two so your information was very helpful, thank you.
I work my equipment hard, I also take care of it all. 40:1 is my preferred Ratio. If in doubt I’ll add a little more. I use Amsoil in most cases. Stihl is made by Castrol which is also good oil.
That was a great video! It was clearly obvious in the video that the saw lost power when using 25:1 mix. You could not only hear it in the sound of the engine, but visually it was noticeably slower cutting the logs.
Been using 40:1 ratios on all my equipment, recently the stores have been out of that mixture ratio so I’ve gone to 50: 1 mix now for all my small engine needs. I just purchased a chainsaw on Amazon and it’s stated in the users manual that a mixture of 25:1 was recommended but I was using 50:1 on it, and it had my curiosity as to whether I was damaging my equipment. This video couldn’t have came at a more perfect time and answered my questions. What a great video you put together on the particulars of oil mixtures , well done ! thank you.
Great job, Dave. As an engineer, I believe collecting data to support a claim is essential. Thank you for conducting the test and sharing this data with us.
@@DavesSmallEngines HI, would be nice to measure RPM, load and no load. And then try to adjust the carb so you have same RPM in both scenarios with different mixtures. And then take the temperatures.
In Alaska our Forestry fire fighters use stihl and run 40:1 mix in everything. They use 40:1 in their water pump engines also. I have noticed you need to tune for what ever mix you use. I run 40:1 and all my saws are tuned for it.
Less power, longer run time, higher temp. Check your cut times on the video. Try it again with a retune. 25:1 is mighty rich. The 4 stroke guys know oil contamination of gasoline reduces power. A two stroke will run better and better up to 100:1, just at the expense of longevity. 32:1 seems to be the sweet spot for me.
Actually, when tuned properly, the more oil will give you more power. It's been proven in two stroke motocross testing. A 32:1 mixture is about perfect for a chainsaw but it will require a carb re-tune to get best performance and to assure you don't get damage from running to lean.
I bought a Still 041AV back in 1967. The mixture recommended in the manual said 40:1 . I have been using that ratio all along for 57 years and other than replacing the carb and spark plugs a few time, the saw still runs great.
Great video . I think the temp is higher because of the higher viscosity of the 25:1 mix and it leaning out the fuel mix so it would be interesting to have the carb adjusted to suit the higher oil mix.
it would help some with the sluggishness for sure, but its not going to cure the excessive smoke or the extreme carbon build up that you see in saws using modern 2 cycle oil at 25:1... Ive said it before and ill say it again... 25:1 is a holdover from the days when you mixed straight 30w because they hadnt invented modern 2 cycle mix yet. Modern 2 cycle mix has a much higher flash point than conventional oil, so it doesnt burn off as quickly. there is a flip side to this... If your saw or other 2 cycle engine doesnt see a lot of RPM or load, it can actually struggle to burn off modern 2 cycle oil even at 50:1 causing excessive carbon. Idling is actually really really bad for a 2 cycle engine, as its not generating enough heat to burn off excess oil, but also isnt generating enough air movement from the flywheel to keep the cylinder cool either. Chainsaws in particular (because the engine is completely shrouded in plastic) are not meant to be left idling for extended periods of time.
It’s important to remember the extra oil will cause carbon to build up faster in the muffler and will eventually cause enough back pressure to cause the engine to run poorly or not at all. Always follow MFGs recommendations. They’ve done all this testing for us. Thanks for a great video! It’s always nice to see testing in real life.
I know for a fact running more oil causes more carbon buildup and that carbon ends up scratching the exhaust side of the piston and cyl. Thus causing a loss in compression
Very true, unfortunately the average guy has the more is better mentality, 70-1 is the sweet spot, what’s more important is the fuel to air ratio, fuel carries the oil.
That's why fuels were developed that were far less viscous and far more volatile than oil. Apart from some military vehicles which are equipped with engines that can run on a range of fuels including some oils for fairly obvious reasons, the slow, low compression oil burning engines are a thing of the distant past. Why return to the bad old days and bugger up your modern equipment in the process?
The amount of oil would HAVE to effect volatility of the fuel. It would be interesting to see the two mixtures run on a saw set up on a dynomometer and measure the difference in torque output. Great video all the same.
2 things to remember here ,the more oil the lower the octane rate of the mix and 2nd two stroke oil returns to its original viscosity when compressed so more oil than recommended is wasted
A very well organized and executed test. Having considerable experience with 2 cycle engines, I was surprised at the results indicating temperature increase with more oil.
Great video! Informative data. Many excellent comments. I have heard people recommend using 40:1. (Better piston/cylinder lubrication). I have been tempted but reluctant and continued with 50:1. My two non expert thoughts. Factory engineers designed the saw for 50:1 having done testing and designing and though probably not a big deal, pollutes less which makes me feel better. I really enjoyed this video. Thanks for taking the time to do this.
with good oil you'll be fine with 50:1, even on a 250 dirtbike engines we run 50:1 mix.. richer mix only lead to more carbon buildup.. i dont use stihl oil as it makes a lot of carbon buildup and loud piston ring sound..
Thank you for demonstrating a head to head test of the oil mix debate. I have 50+ years experience with 2 stroke engines starting with the old 20:1 SAE 30 mixtures up through the 50:1 modern oil mixtures. Many people have difficulty understanding why less is best.
The Craftsman/Poulhan chainsaw I have requires 1:40. Newer saws seem to spec 1:50. It seems that the emissions regulations more than performance may have something to do with the new specs.
I was shocked to hear you say lean condition. i been out of the game for a long time but no one ever used to believe that, drove me crazy. very generally speaking and also somewhat engine specific, more oil will produce more heat (and more power). dyno's can show an increase in power down to high teens, 19:1 IIRC . obviously your test was without a carb adjustment as it should have been, only changing 1 thing at a time. there are other things to consider such as atomization. heavy ratio is "harder" to atomize and efficiency can suffer as well as increase wear more apparent on larger bore piston port engines. A KEY takeaway imho is people generally add more oil to a rebuild. people add oil or even double the ratio arguably causing more harm than good to their new or rebuilt saw. cool video, thanks.
Good video Sir, I am not a Tree surgeon but a Home user accross the pond, and I run all my chain saws on 50:1. Stihl 08s, McCulloch 130, Husky 455 rancher and a small 120. And stimmers, hedge cutter, post hole borer etc and no problems.
I have been running a Stihl 026 for 36 years now. The only repairs that I’ve ever made to this saw was replacement of the coil, clutch, pull cord and a few other typical wear parts. The saw has been cutting approximately 9-10 cords every year, plus all the misc land clearing that I’ve done. I have been running Castrol marine oil, 32/1 mix the entire time. The saw has very little carbon build up and almost no scoring of the piston or cylinder. I have replaced the spark plug very few times. How could anyone argue with this 36 year ongoing experiment? Just bought a Farm Boss for a grandson that will get the exact same mix. I’ll likely wear out before either saw.
I hear ya, But I have a Husqvarna that I have run on the standard 50:1 ratio for 23 years with the same results. My thinking is that proper maintenance and tuning have a greater effect than fuel particulars.
The ms291 will clog with 32:1. 40:1 with a quality oil that isn’t Stihl ultra will probably be ok although it will be lean unless you break the tabs off the carb to really adjust it richer. Even the stihl original oil would be better provided the exhaust screen is removed.
@@k.d.8924my jd 50v is about 45 years old, my 346xp is is 27, my ms290 is 15? My ms 400 is 2 years old. 40-50:1 in every one for life except the jd that started 32-40:1 for a decade and now gets my mix. I used jd oil, or castroil then evenrude, and finally amsoil Sabre or echo red armor oil for the last 20 years with occasional Polaris synthetic snowmobile oil thrown in because it’s what I have on the shelf when needing mixed gas. I still like running the 50v whenever I can, the 346 only replaces it when a brake is a good idea. The 290 was my father’s and only gets used so it doesn’t sit. The 50v was also his I got it when he got the 290. The ms 400 is trying to replace everything but when I can do it with a couple pound lighter saw the 50v and 346 still have a home. I’ve only replaced fuel and oil lines, filters and recoil ropes on any of them. They used to do 4-5 cords of fire wood a year. Now they just deal with 4-5 cords a year cut just small enough to burn the brush, have some campfires and give away the rest, so 4-6ft lengths if it’s not to big a diameter for someone to load it and take it away.
Great test, that has been my experience. I have been wrenching for more than 40 years and that’s exactly what I tell people. Run your small engines on 50:1 and it will run cooler with more power. You just proved it thanks.
You didn’t get the Memo ? In order for engines to get “certified” manufacturers had to test, adopt and suggest a 50:1 ratio where for many many years the recommended ratio was 40:1 on the newer more modern design 2-cycle engines. Of course the old school stuff (Steel Cylinders) were advised to run at crazy old ratios of 16:1,24,32:1 ect. True 50:1 isn’t actually “the stated Law” exactly but 50:1 is what is used for emission certification testing. Hence the “mandated ratio” theme. Did you know that the certification confirmation for emissions only lasts for a pitiful number of engine running hours on most equipment before they go out of compliance. Do some reading-research and get a laugh. I suppose none of this matters for many because if they run 50:1 and use “mandated” ethanol poison fuel your stuff will most likely ruin early helping emissions greatly. Oops there goes that “mandate” word again. I run 42.5:1 with non-e fuel. I buy oil by case of 1 gallon jugs if that’s an indicator of anything. That’s a lot of running. Did you know that a lot of 2-cycle bearings are capable of lasting 2,000hrs if lubricated properly. Piston rings will also last a great number of hours before compression lowers if lubricated properly. It’s a fine line between too little and too much oil with 2-strokes. Either direction has it own set of issues. Look up the videos of guys who fool with saws every days and see what they think.
@@shannonwhitaker9630 thanks for the information. I was just curious when this became the case, because in the old service manuals for the 028, Stihl recommends 50-1 mix with their oil and 25-1 with other brand oils. And of course the older series was all 40-1 with a few with 25-1 recommended, such as the old 070 and 090.
iv'e been saying this all along , oil burns hotter then fuel , also the more oil you use the more carbon buildup you get which will cause scoring , thank you Dave
@@DavesSmallEngines i'm thinking the apprentice might have taught the teacher a little something here , lol , even Steve's small engine disagreed with this idea 👍
@@DavesSmallEngines a few months ago live show with Donny ,not a big deal . i've learned quit a few things from his channel as well plus the guy is a hoot , great guy
Also with the higher oil level you will likely need to clean or replace your spark screen more often. I personally use 40:1 mix for many years with no issues even on cheap Poulan saw.
My husqvarnas won't seem to run on the 50:1, even the pre mixed sthil cans. Runs then gets hot and won't run. 2 out of three of them. The 3rd one would run on water lol!
The only way to measure if more oil is better is to have the saws worked for say 150 hours then tear down and measure the wear. Hope you can set a test up like that.
As long as its mixed somewhere between 32:1 and 50:1 it doesnt matter.minimal gains or losses either way as long as your in there somewheres and most saws will run fine for the average joe(or jane).i run a 40:1 give or take and run the dog snot out of my saws on a daily and run cheap gas station 2stroke oil and never had a problem.even with ethonal feul sometimes.what is most important is what kinda saw your running.stihl,husqvarna,echo and your going to have no issues (of course a couple of other brands also) but i only want to run them three,they are reliable and get the job done so thats what matters.good job with the video.also how you are running the saw matters considerably too.
Think of 50 to one as drinking soda and think of 25 to one as drinking a milkshake. You need bigger jets or the engine will starve for fuel. Jetting for optimum efficiency when changing ratios must be included in the research data
Yes that's the thing u hit it right. Tuned properly for that ratio I believe it would be opposite, the excess oil will remove heat out the exit hole...lol
It would be interesting for sure. I wanted to show what would happen if the same saw was used with the same settings. Tuning a chainsaw is beyond the scope of comfort for most folks. Thanks for watching, hope to see you back Brian!
@@DavesSmallEngines Most saws come out with autotune/m-tronic from now on, so that won't be an issue in the future. Knowing to tune a carb is mandatory, and easy, I don't know why it's always expected of people not to tune, or going with a leaner oil mix is a fix. It isn't. You could buy a saw in a shop at 8000 elevation, you go to your sea level home, and the saw now runs lean without you doing nothing to your oil-gas mixture or whatever. I appreciate the test, but the difference between 25:1 and 50:1 is 2% oil vs 4% oil. That's a 2% difference, or 2% less gas. If the air temp is 6 degrees C colder than when you tuned the carb, that air is gonna be 2% denser, doing the same thing as going from 50:1 to 25:1 air mixture. It's just not that big of a deal in tuning, nobody has that fine of a ear when tuning so even the best at it just go slightly richer to be on the safe side and get back to cutting. It's not that big of an impact going from 50:1 to 25:1 as people think it is. Early morning to mid day temperature changes have a way bigger impact :P In regards to 25:1 feeling more sluggish? That's again the tune or just placebo. This was tested decades ago and there's a research paper on it, I'll have to look it up and edit it on here. Max power and compression is at 8:1 fuel-oil ratio or so, and power decreases from leaner ratios more and more due to worse ring seal. Optimal ratio percentage wise for better power without going too rich on oil was 32:1. Regarding the extra oil, just use a full ester synthetic oil like motul 800 off road or similar and you won't see any smoke even at 4:1 th-cam.com/video/QLW5KEslF3A/w-d-xo.html
The saw was started bone dry (without any fuel) before the 50:1 run. Then all the fuel was burned out before refueling with 25:1. In both cases I would expect a number of pulls would be needed to get fuel through the system.
Motul 800 2t and Schaffer’s 9000 is what I use @ 32:1 all my saws are milled/ported. I work on and rebuild saws on the side so please everyone run 50:1 cause I can use the extra money
Awesome explanation Dave! So many don't think about the lean condition created with extra oil in the mix. Lube is great, but it's not the entire story: fuel cools the top end too! edit: after reading most of the comments here, seems a lot of folks miss the point that this video is good info for the average DIY, homeowner, etc.: They just heard something on the internet about more oil is better, but don't really understand the need to re-tune the carb, which they likely don't really know how to do. Pros already know this.
Hey mower lady! Thanks for the kind comments. There’s a lot of folks that know more than everyone on the Internet. I’m okay with it - I wanted to do a test for the average user. I agree, most folks don’t know how to tune a carb. Thanks for stopping in!
GREAT video!!! Thank you for putting this together and forever settling the argument! Might I add, after I mistakenly mixed my fuel too rich and cutting down 14 aspen trees, my Stihl saw would not start the next day. I took saw apart and found the spark arrestor screen on muffler totally clogged. Because of rich fuel mix. There was so much soot at cylinder to muffler connection too. FYI
Those slight temperature differences could be due to a blunter chain working the engine harder by the time you got around to the 25:1 mix. I run 25:1 in all my saws both Stihl & Husqvarna XP as I prefer the extra lube as I think it gives longer service life.
The 25:1 will need a carburation tuning because it will actually run leaner. This is why you get higher temperatures. Lets not confuse a rich situation with having more oil. The oil doesn’t burn like fuel and it is there to lubricate.
always go for the most oil mixture because I have 3 chain saws, two trimers, or weed whackers. a 2-cycle small tiller. and a snow thrower so I don't mix for each
Have you done small incremental steps while reading the plug? That will tell you a lot more about how an engine is running than temp ever will. I raced dirt bikes for years, and have lived out in the woods all my life. At 40-1 my HomeLite will seize. It like about 28-1. My Echo likes 40-1. Just sayin, your saw will tell you what it wants, and they are not all alike
Not an endorsement for anything but for 25 years I’ve been using Opti 2 (a one mix) for all my equipment. My 52 year old chainsaw was 16:1, other equipment was 50:140:1 and 25:1 and I was tired of having 4 cans of old mixed fuel around. Now 1 can, no ill effects on the old saw. In fact I used it last week and other than beating my arms and shoulders up it ran perfectly. That really amazes me, 1 ratio.
Maybe if you tune the carb for the fuel mixture it may run the same temps. You may be putting the saw under load without it being run at optimum efficiency, therefor, it struggles more and runs hotter. I am skeptical to a degree how scientific this is.
Hey Mark! Good points. I’m glad you’re skeptical - that’s what this is all about. This test shows what happens when you run 50:1 and 25:1 in the same saw with no adjustments. I did not make any carb adjustments.
@@DavesSmallEngines it’s jetted for 50:1. So of course it will run too lean at 25:1. It will make more power and last longer at 25:1 if it’s jetted accordingly.
Personally I run 32:1 Stihl synthetic. 1. My saws are not stock, woods ported and muffler mod. 2. Well over 50 gallons of mix fuel in 8 months thru two saws, Ms260, Ms440 both running 32" 3/8 full comp,or 25" 3/8 full comp. With zero carbon deposits, clean spark plugs ( light brown ).
One negative is that the octane of your fuel mixture is lowered slightly by more oil… but,on the plus side you have better oil protection, which might out weigh that especially if you use ethanol free high octane fuel.
Dony, now you got to do a similar video. Except, yours will be determinating how much power does a small engine make depending on what fuel you use. Also, lots of crazy sparkplugs out there that have huge claims like them iridium sparkplugs. Are two, three, or four electrodes better then one? Does it matter what the inner plug core is made of? Or does the cheap Champion just as good? SCIENCE! Why? Cause ya gotta.
@@stellarproductions8888 Champion isn’t the one you want…for some reason you can see a 600 rpm loss buy using one over the Ngk or Bosch is actually the one you want and what Stihl recommends..those multiple fingers are a farce… 😂👍
Always run your mix that was specified by the manufacturer. I ruined my Stihl 070 because I listened to a "professional" that told me to do 50:1 instead of the Stihl-recommended 20:1 because he said "your saw will have more power and run cooler". Well, 2 hours later my piston ring is blown...so that's that.
I recommend mixing to manufacturer recommendation, especially considering newer saws have features such as autotune. Aside from that, I've run 32:1 premix using ONLY fresh pump gas and carb tune using the tried and true 4-stroking method for decades and haven't encountered any issues. Still running saws built in the 70's era.
Agreed I run 32:1 in all saws from 70’s all the way up to new saws, zero issues. 1000’s of cords of wood lol, -50° F to 100° F always tuned and sharpened of course.
With decades of experience on working with engines the safest and best bet is to always follow the engines recommendations and never the claims of these premix formulas or two stroke oil providers that claim that their gas rich formulas is good for all, those engines are built with materials and clearances and tested with the mix that they recommend as is their warranty. Sincerely, Paulie T.
I would also like to add that the only times that I personally will not follow the engines mix recommendations is if they recommend gas mixtures as rich as 50:1and I always use the best proven two stroke oils. Sincerely Paulie T.
@@shannonwhitaker9630 Yes the 10% stuff. ONLY fresh and freshly mixed. It goes sour fairly quickly, gets sketchy. Even fresh 10% ethanol gas is hard on fuel lines and carb diaphragms, stick with ethanol free if you don't want to deal with that.
more oil is always better for the motors longevity. 40:1 and 32:1 are where I would run all of my equipment. Also you must retune your equipment when you make changes to your oil mixture.
Stihl recommends with a genuine stihl oil 25/1 with a non stihl oil 50/1. If you wanted to be completely fair a fresh sharp chain for the second test maybe 😅 I think my saw would have cut through that log in half the time
You see, the MAJOR FLAW in your test is that you did not re-tune your carburetor for the new mix ratio. If you are running more oil you are displacing fuel and causing a slightly lean burn. You just need to re-tune your carb a bit richer to get that extra fuel back into the a/f ratio and the saw will run just as cool and have more lubrication. If the saw has limiter locks they may need to be removed to run rich enough with more oil then the EPA mandated 50:1. I've heard that the M-tronic and Autotune saws have no problem adjusting for the extra oil if the proper warmup procedure is performed.
That wasn't the point of the video. He was trying to see what happens when you DON'T make changes. Additionally, most people don't have the experience to properly adjust and tune a saw.
Well maybe you’ll get a refund. How much did this video cost you to watch? I know when I watch a video on TH-cam I expect the highest academic rigor, peer reviewed papers and state of the art test methodology.
When you add more oil to the gas,you have to retune your carb for the new mixture. Plus your chain looked to be dull,with a dull chain makes any motor run hotter. The main reason they run 50:1 is for the EPA & yes the oil these days are way better then the 70's. I personally have old Homelite Saws, I use Stihl regular orange bottle mix & mix them at 16:1 & use rec 90 gas. I have the carbs tuned with the saw in the wood. They do smoke at idle but clear out once cutting. I've never had carbon build up or any problems.
Nice comparison test Dave, thanks for taking the time to do it thoroughly 👍 I suspect with a cheap Chinese chainsaw that specifies 25:1 (suggesting an older style engine) that it probably wouldn't survive long on 40:1 or 50:1 ? - The Stihl's has a rock solid motor - no monkey metal inn those bad boys 💪
its mostly because of their outdated information, or possibly the lack of availability of high quality engineered 2 cycle mix, which contrary to popular belief is much different than conventional 30w oil. If you could find a manual for an older Stihl from the 70s-early 90s, you would find that Stihl recommended 25:1 with straight 30w oil. As lube manufacturers developed better and better 2 cycle oils, the recommended ratios got lighter. If you look at some of the most modern oils like Amsoil Sabre, they recommend 100:1 because of the extremely high flash point.
The increase of temperature won't seize the engine but a higher oil/fuel will guarantee a long life of the engine. The best ratio is 1:40 for high quality engines and 1:32 for cheap household engines. many buyers reported their Stihl air blowers engines seized using 50:1 fuel:oil ratio. We cannot dismiss the facts and follow the manufacturers recommendations. Toyota claimed the trans fluid stays good for the life of the vehicle. The truth is that trans fluid starts to degrade after 100k miles. Manufacturers do not care much after your engine is out of warranty.
Great video. I have a friend who owns a tree service. He runs 32 to1 in all his saws all the time. If he's right the extra oil gives a bit more protection during extreme use. I say use Amsoil Dominator or interceptor and you are good to go at 50 to 1.
Just a thought along with engine tempurature and I tested several oils Pennzoil Ultra Synthetic Natural Gas Based 5w 30 The v8 liquid cooled 2011 4.8 Silverado truck on highway where road speed provides radiator cooling coolant temp stays 192.2 deg F where Pennzoil platinum runs 194 Deg F other oils run 195-197 Deg F. In your test I would like to see a piston wear test with 25 to1 v 50 to 1 my reason is this is an air cooled engine. The 2 stroke oil being the only lubricant AND Coolant maybe the oil is pulling more heat into the cooling fins and exhaust system and providing reduced friction and better ring seal. Another video on here with 2 stroke bike racers showed more power dyno tested with more oil eg the 25 to1 in there case 30 to 1 versus 50 to 1. Higher emissions but It provides more heat transfer less friction and better piston ring seal. Street race cars make more HP with 10w 30 than 5 w 30 due to better piston ring seal. But the weight and viscosity of additives to make 5 to 30w v 10 to 30w better shear resistance and less break down. Windage with 10w 30 is greater than thin oils such as 0w20 and when tested the 0w20 has less drag windage than 10w30 ability to seal better so better HP numbers are with thin oils but Wear becomes a problem. The Thinner oils wear parts faster auto mfg say they are required due to closer tolerances of todays engines. Part true but part BS as things are made to wear faster today shorter service life and replace sooner for more profit.
Just thinking out loud, there’s one variable you might have missed. Increasing oil in the mixture decreases gas. Unless you tweaked the jet settings on the carbs, wouldn’t that lean your A/F mixture out? And leaner mixtures do raise combustion temps and exhaust temps.
Actually, if you measure exhaust temps, they drop when detonation begins to occur. So, I'm not personally sold on this parameter for developing a tune. I have noticed as many will testify, a two-stroke tends to make most power right before it seizes (oil film failure). This is why I place high value in the 4-stroking method for carb tuning. Think of it as "dancing on the head of a pin" in the sense that when detonation begins to occur, the conditions for oil film failure are also occuring. Detonation is often difficult to detect when it's occuring, it's much more evident by the way the engine runs. Ever noticed when those last few drops of fuel from an empty tank are being used as the saw is running out of fuel, the engine feels most powerful just before it runs out and falls on it's face? It just danced off the head of the pin and you felt it happen.
@@MrSprintcat That's right, it's running lean at that point. Maybe you know the old saying, a 2-stoke makes it's most power right before it lean-seizes. This is because the piston overheats when the mixture is too lean. Detonation occurs (often cannot hear detonation taking place, sounds like a pinging noise), piston overheats. Stay on the fat side, don't adjust the carburetor mixture screws too lean, avoid detonation. Detonation occurs when the fuel stops burning prematurely, such as low octane (low octane fuel burns quickly), insufficient fuel, or ignition timing is too far advanced. I adjust my 2-stroke carburetor as fat as I can, where it still makes good power. Occasionally this causes premature plug fouling and in that case I switch to next higher heat range plug. This kinda depends on the factory ignition timing and spark plug choice. Often, the factory timing is conservative and the plug chosen is a hair cold, to avoid pre-ignition (preignition destroys a 2-stroke almost immediately, pre-ignition and detonation aren't the same phenomenon) Too much cylinder heat (such as a red hot plug electrode) can ignite the fuel prior to the ignition event. Extremely damaging! Some people go so far as to optimize ignition timing, ie: the pro motocross and watercraft guys, race saw builders.
I may add a few drops of extra oil but for my Stihl I just use the motomix. If I don't know what the ratio is, I add a little extra like 40:1 just to be safe
As a small engine tech, I have seen more saws with leading to or actually at catastrophic failures, from too much oil in the mix. 50-1 with good oil and 92 or better octane is all we use, never have problems with customers who stick to this formula. Carbs last longer, stay tuned better, saw runs strong and efficiency because it was meant for that mix. The better oil and fuel ⛽️ the less carbon, less heat, heat destroys engines. One side note the 40-1 with an oz of Marvel oil will do those who refuse to use good oil and gas a lot of good. 50-1 with quality oil and fuel ⛽️, clean the air filter regularly and your small engine will love its life and repay you double, even triple its worth.
I always use Stihl hp ultra with non ethanol 100% gas. I have my own ritual. First I pour about 2" of fuel in the jug, then I add all the oil. I mix, then fill the gas to appropriate level, then mix more. Lastly, I take the empty oil bottle, pour a shot of gas in it from the jug, shake that little bottle and pour that remaining bit of oil in the jug. I do this to make sure I get every bit of oil out of that bottle. If you don't, there's always always good tablespoon worth of oil left over in the bottle, maybe that's a bit OCD.
i have run saws for 20 years with 20:1 mixed gas and never had a problem not even dirty plugs. they tell you to run lean oil mixes so you get less pollution and thats all. i had snowmobiles that blew up on 50:1 mix and i have seen old arctic cats run for 30 years because they used 20:1. drain half the oil out of your car and see how it works or mix half your cars engine oil with kerosene and see how it works. a neighbor of mine blew up a new stihl saw within 1 year and he ran 50:1. he was a logger so it got used a lot but one year isnt very long. I have mixed my gas with 40 weight engine oil at 20:1 when I was out of 2 cycle oil and it worked fine. anybody that says use less is a fool.
I think people should understand that most of these oils burn at low temperatures so 50.1 isn't much protection at high rpm unless U use like Motul 800 road racing which burns at 252 Celcius (50.1 this oil is same results 16.1 with thin oil
@@Dntgveafck2701 exactly. with stihl oil, one of the worst on planet earth 1/50 or 1/30 is very little help. that why service is full of broken tools...... use motul 1/50 and u have no pro cca 10 years . people care too much about s.t.u.p.i.d reasons and they miss basics
😄 dull chain was completely spent by the time you had to lay on it with the 25:1. Wonder why the engine was hotter? 🤔 I’ve run 32:1 since the advent of 2 cycle oil. (Earlier std. was sae 30) Zero worn out engines. I run many models from all brands. Daily.
I agree, which is why I run 50:1. Anytime you increase the amount of oil in the gas you end up with a leaner mix because the mixed gas has less gas per volume of mixed gas with the higher oil concentrations of two cycle oil. Lean means hot and your tests prove it. The key is to use a good two cycle oil and premium, non ethanol gas, plus a good stabilizer. I use Stihl Ultra at 50:1 in everything.
well that was a interesting outcome as Steve said Very informative thanks for taking time to share with us Dave you and donyboy73 and Steve's small engine do a fantastic job sharing your knowledge with us all keep up the great work take care
Here is a thaught. Premix two stroke always will be a compromise. Many of the oil injected two stroke engines deliver a different mix depending om RPM, the higher the RPM the leaner the oil mix. The thinking being every poston stroke introduces a quantity of oil, more piston strokes more oil. The thing that determines required premix oil mixture is required oil at idle, particularly hot idle when comming down from righ rpm, high load, hot cylinder conditions.
The carburetor moves the same volume of fuel mixture regardless of the mix ratio. Therefore, the lower gasoline content in the 25:1 accounts for the performance decrease when compared to the 50:1 mix. You can hear the difference in the video. Years ago 16:1 was a common ratio that I ran in my saws of the day. With the advent of improved lubricating oils, synthetics in particular, there is no reason to run such rich in lubrication mixtures. I even run my old saws (Homelites, McCullochs) at 40:1 now, with no problems to report. Exhaust ports and rings seem cleaner too. Good video illustration of an important point.
No not true that carb runs the same air fuel mix. When you add more oil you raise Viscosity (Thickens mixture) so you must adjust carb richer. Just a fact.
Nicely done wait 50 to 1 I've always done 32 to 1 did something change in the last 20 years and I use any 2 cycle oil I can get at any gas station usually the cheapest my pore 2 strokes
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I know how long it takes to produce a video like that! Very informative buddy...
Hey Steve! No kidding eh? Thanks for the kind words!!!
thanks for teaching me how to tune a chain saw.
Also chain is sharper on original cuts therefor working harder on second set. Also agree that carb mixture screws are a factor.
@@DavesSmallEngines th-cam.com/video/rkoFzuwtbeA/w-d-xo.html jak to naprawić przepustnica nie otwiera się do końca.....
It's nice to know that Steve is here too =D
I've logged professionally for over 30 years. I mix 40 to 1 and add 1 iz of marvel mystery oil per gallon of gas and ONLY NON ETHANOL gas. My saws cut 3 to 4 million feet a year with no issues. Good job on the video
That’s pretty good evidence. What oil do you use?!
@@DavesSmallEngines Would be very interesting to see your test done with Scot's mixture. Thanks for the very interesting video BTW!
I can’t find ethanol free gas in my area but I wish I could.
Is the one ounce of Marvel additional to the 40:1 mix or part of it?
40:1 is 3.2 oz of oil to 1 gallon of gas. For one gallon did you add 3.2 oz of oil plus 1 oz of marvle making a total of 4.2 Oz per gallon of gas?
@@Wolf-wf6yx yes. I do my normal mix PLUS an ounce of marvel
You should retune your carburetor after changing to 25-1 ratio. You're putting more oil in and less gas so you have to richen the carb settings to get the same amount of gas into the cylinder. By not making the carb adjustments you are running the saw leaner which causes more heat everytime.
If you make the proper carb adjustments you well gain a bit of power from the extra oil sealing the piston better.
Great video! It certainly shows the need to retune after changing gas/oil ratios.
I was thinking the same thing.
if you change your carb mixture then your adding more gas. therefore negating the baseline. might as well just run 50:1 and be safe. no added benefit here.
@flagulantmichael If you increase the oil in your gas oil mixture, then you have less gas and more oil therfore the need for the carb adjustment in order to get the same amount of gas into the engine. You will use slightly more gas/oil mixture but the same amount of gas.
@@flagulantmichaelthe added benefit is your actually getting enuff lubrication. He took it too far. 40:1 is perfect. Only reason for 50:1 is to meet epa regulations. Take two brand new saws. Run 1 50:1 and run one 40:1. I got a grand on the 40:1 lasting longer
@@jamiewarner9101 I'll take that bet!
I have a poulan 3400 from 1983 that I run. Manufacture recommends 16:1 ratio! That's what I always ran and never had a problem. Smoked during warm-up, but cleared during sawing. After about 35 yrs I took it apart to put in new rings and the piston and cylinder walls were in perfect shape. The cylinder is NOT chrome or nickasil plated either. Was no ridge on cylinder from ring wear. Most of its life I used Cenex two stroke oil.... my Dad was a manager at a Cenex location.
I don't think more oil makes saw run hotter. If that was the case, my saw would have overheated. My saw ran cool. The carb was adjusted to the mixture it was running. Ran great.
Dealer would always give me hard time. Wanted to sell me new saw every time I stopped in for new chain or bar. Told him I'd buy new saw when my poulan wore out. It's still going and he died waiting.
Hey Todd! That’s great info. I wanted to show a video on the difference if the carb was not adjusted. To make up for the oil increase long term, I would want to make adjustments to the carb. Cheers!
Don't die waiting peeps. Moral of the story. Get your ass better...in all facets of life. You may smoke a little at first, but long with all your heart to run smooth.....chop that wood
The 25 to 1 would perform better if the jetting was correct to the ratio.
I’ve got an old 3400 counter-vibe and it runs fine on 42.5 :1
Salesman “died waiting” for your 3400 to blow.
Nice.
I wanted to thank you, DonyBoy and Steve (Steve's Small Engine
Saloon). Because of you guys, I was able to pick up and quickly diagnose
and fix a Husky Rancher 55 for a total of $50. Loving my "new" saw. All
it needed was a thorough cleaning to release a stuck break and fiddling
with the coil to get spark back. Starts and runs great!
Hey Joseph! I have had a couple 55’s…. Awesome saws! Glad to have been of assistance. Thanks for watching!!!
I'm porting and rebuilding an old 440e. I didn't like husky concrete saws when I did patios but their chainsaws rip
I run 25:1 and i tune them for 25:1 for 30+ years now, the oldest saws i have are 22 years old bought new together,thousants of hours,i used to make a living cuting and selling firewood,just my 2 cents
Thank you. If you can get the public to understand this you have truly accomplished something. That being said, if you had the ability to richen fuel to air ratio you could get the temperatures back to nearly equal. Since the carb adjustments are pegged or fixed we normally can’t do that. Having worked in the industry I have had a hard time getting public to understand that more oil is not better. With today’s oils wear is not caused by lack of lubrication it is caused by dirt. Air filter maintenance is critical for long life.
Absolutely. Great points. I would suggest running more oil and then altering a perfect carb adjustment for 50:1 to compensate for temperature would be counter productive.
You’re exactly right. Today’s oils are so good. Personally, I’m going to trust the engineering done by Stihl, Husqvarna, Echo etc.
Cheers!
It’s all to do with Emissions,saws will run better with more oil and last longer.
I have an Echo PB-251 hand held blower that I run at least an hour a week and for hours on end in the fall..:since 2008. It starts 3rd pull every time. Original plug and I’ve never removed the air filter. It’s caked with nasty dirt and debris. It’s been abused, knocked over, dropped and ran hot. I’d say it’s lasted a long time. Still going strong too. And I’ve never touched the air filter. I actually just looked at it today for the first time. I sort of just forgot about it. And I’m a believer in good maintenance.
@@SuperJacobe thats not true and the fact that you think so tells me you dont understand anything about modern 2 cycle mix... i mean some of it has to do with emissions, but it mostly has to do with the invention of modern 2 cycle mix which has an extremely high flash point and doesnt burn off as easily as conventional 30w oils that were used when 25:1 was the most common mix ratio... its idiots like you who talk out their ass without knowing a damn thing... CARBON LOADING WILL KILL YOUR SAWS LONG BEFORE MY SAWS DIE OF HEAT
With my engineering and mechanic background I have found out a long time ago that a 40 to one mix gives the best lubrication to all the parts in the engine. At 50 to 1 the wrist pin really needs more oil film. Especially at high RPM. The manufactures recommend 50 to 1 to make the EPA a little happier.... As a side note:
When wrenching on small bore 2 stroke dirt bikes its amazing how many rebuilds are due to the owners running 100 to 1 Amsoil... Just my experience. I recommend at least 40 to 1.
I'll stick to what Stihl says
@@devlinsemmler8236 Stihl, like all manufactures is under EPA pressure to recommend 50 to 1. It's not for engiine longevity so much as it is to satisfy emissions standards.
I run 40to1 also in all my stihl equip.been doin it for years i agree with you. Never had an engine failure also run 93 octane gas.
@@zackeryeckenrod6549 Anytime I tore down an engine that ran 50 to 1, I noticed upon inspection the wrist pin especially does not get quite enough lubrication. Yep 40 to 1 is the way to go. Screw the EPA.
I’ve always used 50:1 in my Stihl equipment 100% Stihl standard oil (Blue) which I still can buy outside of Stihl dealers in Australia as superseded to the Red colour, never has a problem never changed a spark plug only the arrester was blocked once on my FS55 my FS85 okay.
Arresters are bad in Home 3
FS 38 -45 due to home users not using full throttle, and really they wouldn’t.
Ran all my Huskys on 50 to 1 mix. Still do. Never looked likeblowing one up. Used to log full time. 2 years out of a spark plug was common. Why smoke yourself out for no reason. Used to have folks try all kinds of things out. Saws were often running to rich and gutless. 50 to 1 is what Husky mauals say and its good enough for me. My old 372 loves it.
I grew up selling firewood , my dad ran an 028 and 2 029s. Early 80s models. He ran 50:1 til the end. They survived from the early 80s until the late 2000s….. never rebuilt. Keep the chain sharp, air filter clean. Run an appropriate sized bar … and it’s amazing…. The saws lasted 30 years. Matter of fact the first 10 years was tree service and pulp wooding, and transitioned to only 20 chord a year fire wood the last 10 year or so.
Exactly right. Ran 50:1 for 15 years, 6 hours a day. Ran those saws until everything but the motor was plum wore out
Proper sharpening. 32 to 1 mixture. Original 372 Husqvarna. Usied logging felling large hardwood timber. Saw ran awesome for 20 plus years. Got run over by a log forwarder. Busted both cases. Pulled the crankshaft out put in a couple cases that I bought from a buddy. That was five years ago still running strong. Proper sharpening.
I remember the big debate over 16-1 vs 32-1. Lol
My HomeLite runs best on 24-1.
These newbies, lol
Agree with proper sharpening as a blunt chain causes alot of drag and heat.
There’s definitely a sweet spot. I have a lot of hours working on chainsaws, I see a lot of saws blown up on 50:1. 40:1 or 32:1 seem to make them last much longer form what I’ve seen
I agree 100%.
i dont buy that.
i have 7 years on a multitude of echo and redmax equipment. not 1 issue. 50 to 1 syn redmax oil
too many variables to make that determination
50 to 1 is what the manufacturer says. at least on modern stuff. you had this vid to show excess heat generated.
most blow ups in small equipment are user errors, poor mix, old gas..no maint....etc.
but if you feel better at 25 to 1 go ahead. wasting money and more smoke is what I see.
Our landscape company used 50:1 for many years, and we would throw out blowers every year due to low compression. A mechanic recommended that we switch to 40:1 ratio (more oil), richen our carburetors up, and remove our spark arrestor screens. Spark plugs are cheaper than engines.
We have had these same old blowers for at 40:1 for DECADES ever since we did that. We no longer replace equipment each year. Our equipment now is discarded/sold when it becomes obsolete and we can't buy parts for it - not because the engines were toast like they were annually, at 50:1. We have been in the landscape business since the early 2000's.
We will NOT change to less oil (50:1), to please CARB (california air resource board), or the EPA. We do what we must for our profit margins.
50:1 in a 550xp 10years old now it runs well still has good compression. But I use good oil
use motul 710 oír 800 . thats the pro. no mixture
Biggest problem is going to be carbon on the piston and exhaust port, but the anti spark shield will block solid far faster with the 25:1.
My anti-spark shields fit nicely in the trash bin.
Don't think I've ever seen carbon build up on my equipment. But I like them richer than usual.
We ran 2-stroke racing bikes at all different oil mixtures back in the day. We jetted for the day. The main issue with running the castor bean oil we favored at 16:1 or thicker was fouling spark plugs when you throttled down. Man, this brings back memories.
And you don’t own them today…. Hence .
gotta love that Klotz Benol... i actually prefer the supertechniplate, and its what i run in my saw now... you are right about one thing... castor bean oil definitely needs RPM to burn cleanly
@kevywilliams3304 Hence, your comment doesn't make a bit of sense.
16:1 will even foul NGK's, lol.
I worked for a Ford New Holland dealership that took on McCulloch chainsaws. The service representative and I had this discussion and what he told me makes 100% sense to me. To much oil has a longer flash point which creates more heat than less oil with a shorter flashpoint. It simply takes longer to burn more oil and makes more heat.
I did enjoy this video which backs this up.
Very well thought out comment
Heat is horsepower!
yes and what ? any damage ? for more heat ? back to school mate.
The service rep was wrong. Two stroke oils are designed to withstand combustion chamber temperatures without burning. If the oil were to burn it would lose its lubricating qualities. Again: two stroke oils are designed to exit the exhaust port unburned.
I think going from a 50:1 to a 25:1 is a pretty radical step.
Using XP Series Husqvarna saws and 50:1 synthetic oil, I got damage over time (a lot of time but a $175 parts rebuilt …) I’ve changed to 40:1 and things seem to be much better
Husky oil is some of the worst oil made.
Stihl oil is right behind xp oil.
Have had my share of operating both an XP 390 & 3120. Are you using .87 or .91 gas?
Same, my top end is toast. Only 91 octane no ethanol in its lifetime.
I agree with you.
Same here, my dad and myself run 45:1 because we burnt up 2 saws before we made the switch and now running the 45:1 we haven't burnt one up
The reason for the higher temps is do to the extra oil raising the compression. The reason it didn't have the same power is because it was running richer. The jets would have to be turned in a little on the richer mix to get the power up. Some thoughts from an old logger.
such an underrated comment, as well as maybe the chain got just a little duller, so the engine had to work just a tiny bit more,
as well as it was just one run, so it was not the average of like 10 runs, so differences in user inputs could have also bee the cause, but I agree with you, it needed just a bit of tuning, but still,
Richer in Oil, Leaner in Fuel. The extra oil would certainly reduce power somewhat because there is less Fuel which is what provides the power. Additional carbon buildup over time also. I wouldn't call this experiment absolutely conclusive, you would have to more precisely control load with each cut as that is probably the biggest variable. The operator may feel like he's applying 'similar' load with each cut but a variety of things such as changes in the log dimensions over its length, changes in Grain and density, and etc. would result in less than wholly accurate tests. I don't fault Dave's attempt to test, he doesn't have a lab and equipment to control the variables and did the best anyone could do without the proper instrumentation. There was a time when 16:1 and 32:1 mix ratios were common. With modern lubricants, modern materials and modern methods that produce better manufacturing tolerances, we don't need that much oil today. In any case it makes sense that less fuel would result in higher temps, that's what happens when you introduce less fuel to one of these engines.
@@Qwertyuiop-wg5xu You won't blow the engine up!
@@Qwertyuiop-wg5xu I always add a little extra oil to my mix. and after 52 years logging I have never blew up a saw. My brother who used to log with me wouldn't add extra oil blew up a good many saws. Common sense is uncommon.
@@ajw6715 i kind of agree, really, like let it run a bit richer on oil rather than maybe running a bit leaner, even though it might get less strong, but still, you would tune you saw on the mix you have, lets say you are running a 40 to 1, you will tune it while it has 40to1 mixed in it, not you tune it with 50 to 1, then run it on 40to1,
like, I am sure adding just a bit more oil will not be anywhere close to buying a new saw each few years, it definitely is better to be on the safer side, plus it is not as if you are damaging anything since you are still around 30 or 40 to 1, it is not as if you are going with 10 to 1 or something
I ran a 72cc Chinese auger at 50:1 when they recommended 25:1.
After less than 8 running hours, the engine gave out and the piston has groves in it.
I just bought another one and will be running it as recommended, 25:1.
It seems to reason that even though it may run at a bit higher temperature, the additional oil helps lube the working parts better than 50:1, making it last longer.
good work I was initially surprised by the result :) a little late to the comments section here but i would say the higher temp is likely due to a leaning of the fuel ratio due to the extra oil. Also, too much oil will cause the needle roller bearings to "skip" or "skid" rather than rolling, this causes wear on your bearings.
Oil technology and metal/machining quality also affect the oil ratios.
Each saw make and model has its own recommended mixtures for a reason :)
The pure lubrication aspect of the oil happens at around 100:1 then there is the cleaning/washing away of contaminants that needs a little more and finally there is a sealing/cushioning component to the oil and you end up at 50:1 - its also a very convenient ratio to mix.
Originally Husqvarna stated that you needed Husqvarna oil at 50:1, other 2stroke oil at 33:1 and monoSAE30 oil at 25:1. Now, many years later the manual reads "air cooled 2stroke oil at 50:1", on all their saws.
Many Chinese saws say 25:1 simply because the tolerances aren't as good and generally the oil quality is unregulated.
It would be interesting to re do the test, re tuning and re plug the saw for the 25:1 and see what happens.
Well laid our format - instant sub from me mate
You keep doin what your doin and I’ll keep mixing my oil 20:1 and using my 21 year old cub cadet weed eater and 12 year old stihl saws that have a immaculate piston and cylinder yea they have a little extra carbon on the piston and it blows a little smoke
Sounds good Dr!
40:1 Premium Mineral Oil ( WITH API-TC/JASO-FB RATING ) with a Premium 98 Octane Fuel. Perfect for bigger saws optimal performance and reliability, I also use a mixture of either Husqvarna or Stihl Bar & chain oil with a Diesel SAE 40 engine oil mixed together ( 50/50 for colder conditions and 75/25 for average temperatures, on hot days I’ll run a pure bar and chain oil ) this is all just my personal preference based off of my experience not only felling trees but working as a OPE Specialist in the past. Though if your just a homeowner doing annual maintenance around your property always listen to your husqvarna or stihl dealer if you know nothing about cars you refer to the owners manual not billy on the internet for what oil and how much to put in (PLEASE DONT USE ETHANOL FUEL IT EATS YOUR FUEL LINES AND RUBBER COMPONENTS!)
I have seen many demolition saws pick up a piston using 50:1, a higher temp isn't always a bad thing as long as its not too hot, hotter will bur the excess oil better. I have used 25:1 in all my 2 strokes for 45 years, no ill effects.
Same thing here, Harry. I burnt up two Husqvarnas over a 20 year period running 50:1 temporarily just for a test, then went back to 30:1 and hundreds of cords of firewood later, never had a problem. It certainly appears that the saw chain in this test got duller with each test cut. The last big log cut took 30% longer than the first big log cut using the 25:1 mix. It would be interesting to see the 25:1 test run first when the chain is sharper, then run the 50:1.
@@garsonprice3441 In two stroke bike racing they say more oil more power, there are dyno tests to prove that.
@@harry8506true, I picked up power in my zenoah g320 going from 28:1- 20:1
My two cents.
I'm recently retired so I've been around a while and seen a few things. Just so you know Im not a kid writing this or some keyboard expert.
I recommend a 32:1 ratio fuel mixture. That's the only ratio I use. That's 4 ounces of oil to one gallon of gas. I have an Echo leaf blower that my late brother purchased back in the 1980s and I still use it occasionally. Back in the 1960s -70s it was recommended to use a 16:1 ratio mixture. That's 8 ounces of oil to one gallon of gas. Lots of smoke.
Side Notes:
I was surprised that the engine temperature was higher with the 25:1 (I thought it would be lower, I don't know what those temperature and ml are, here in America we use the standard system. Not sure what country you are in). Not surprised less power, but That's the trade off for a well lubed engine. Remember, the ONLY lube the engine gets is what you put in it. Never in Hell will I run a 50:1 ratio mixture in ANY 2-cycle engine.
I know a woman that purchased a new string trimmer and used a 50:1 mixture as manufacturer recommended. It lasted one month after the warranty expired then locked up. They would not replace it.
.
I always just use what the manufacturer recommends. I have a Stihl I bought new about 7 years ago, always used the Motomix 50:1. I have a couple of other 2 cycle machines that call for 40:1, so I use the premix or occasionally mix my fuel from pump gas (Sunoco 93) if I’m using it a lot of it. Maintenance is key! My motto with fuel or any fluids is: “when in doubt, DUMP it OUT”. Real simple, old fuel of just about any kind, even mixed, can be poured into my truck which is a 17 year old Dodge Heavy Duty which gets 12mpg. It’s gone in no time and diluted with frequent trips to the gas station. Just about any car will burn up old gas and not suffer the consequences, but some may balk at doing this with a precious new car. In that case, offer it to a friend or teenage driver who is too cheap to pay for their own in gasoline. In any case, if you be sure your fuel is fresh and mixed properly, you will rarely see any problems with power equipment. One run with bad fuel and it can be game over.
the manufacturers are between a rock and a hard place in regards to 2 cycle engines. Back when I was a kid, outboards ran as rich as 16 to 1 and now I have some synthetic oil that is recommended at 100 to 1! I believe that Californicate is outlawing all two cycles in the next couple of years, that sure will spur on the rebuilding parts business. I suspect that small differences (5 degrees in this example) are not significant but larger ones are (say about 50 degrees or so). I don't think that using a 40 to 1 oil in a 50/1 saw is gotta hurt anything and I think that test might be more useful. If you have two saws on yer truck, one 40, the other 50 are you goin' to carry two separate gas cans? I doubt if you have any 24/1 equipment left. One advantage to using my old lawnboy mower was that mosquitoes weren't a problem when mowing. Dang things lasted forever, way longer than the Chiner engine mowers sold now, end came when I broke the carb and couldn't get a new one.
You are so correct ! I run 42.5 :1 which pisses off regulators and idiots lol
In the early 1970s we ran 16:1 in our chainsaws. After 25 years of hard use they showed very little wear. I have seen what happens to saws people run at 50:1. It scuffs pistons, wears out seals, and bearings don't last. After using them and fixing them as well as motorcycles, it is QUITE obvious to me that more oil is better. Remember, it's the tree hugger, EPA and manufacturer that wants 50:1. Your saw and bike dont!
That's funny. I've been running 50-60 to 1 on my motorcycles since the 90s and every time I do a top end and I can peek in the crankcase, I'm always astonished at how much oil is in there, and how it's everywhere. Very different than your experiences.
. If you run to much oil in a modern saw it will run lean they are jetted for 50/1. Also a lot of guys dont know how to adjust a saw properly they are usually to lean or to rich.
My Echo dealer told me to run 32:1 in both new saw that I got, he said at 50:1 that saw will not last like the old chainsaw are lasting
@@larrykluckoutdoors8227 it's also worth considering that the earlier gen saws are far less highly strung. Modern saws are very tight.
I never had any problems with the 50:1 gas mix
40:1 Is the sweet spot !
I’m not sure, Donyboy73 says 45:1
You are correct Greg. We went from 50:1 to 40:1, and we don't replace engines annually at our landscape company. At 50:1, we were tossing equipment out due to low compression.
This is one of those issues that I tell people, but I don't push it on them - because they need to learn on their own. I spent so many years and so many thousands of dollars for our company buying new equipment - and this is a lesson that everyone should learn on their own.
50:1 is NOT ENOUGH oil to properly lubricate these engines, especially when wide open for long, sustained durations. 40:1 is the "sweet spot." A spark plug replacement is cheaper than an engine replacement. We remove all spark arrestor screens on all equipment, since concrete can't catch on fire. We enrichen all carbs by using chinese tools purchased from the internet.
I will never debate this with anyone; We've been doing this for decades. If a worker changes the mixture from 40:1 to 50:1, he is terminated instantly.
Run 40 to one in everything I own dirt bikes , saws etc
@@garrettstevensen2467Hi Garrett, what was that chinese tool you used for mixture setting?
@@garrettstevensen2467 Good for you. You're doing what works for you. Like you, I always remove the spark arrestor screens, and change my sparkplugs at the first sign of trouble. I did run 50:1 for a while as recommended by Stihl but have gone back to 40:1 as I was suspicious. The EPA, which makes the rules, doesn't give a damn about the longevity of my equipment.
I do random tinkering. (I've fixed VCRs, Hoverboards, chainsaws, lawnmowers, reel mowers, PS3s, vacuum cleaners, home plumbing, home electrical (120V & 240V), my motorcycle was a 1980 Honda CX500D that I bought for $200 because the owner said he couldn't make it run. It had a broken wire preventing turning 12V into kV for spark. That was it. It ran great and I got my M rating with it.)
A guy I was talking with found out I do random tinkering and asked me if I could look at his quad (but not the glutes).
Anyway, he was told that his 2-cycle bike wasn't oiling properly, so he was told to just mix oil with the fuel and he did that and the bike stopped running and the two of them couldn't get it fired up again.
So I said I'll take a look at it, and he dropped it off.
I had a guess that the oiler was oiling, and by mixing oil in with the fuel AND having the oiler still connected, I had a hunch that the crankshaft literally filled with oil.
So, what I did:
I emptied the fuel tank.
I disconnected the oiler tube from the engine block and determined that oil at least got to that point.
I emptied the oil tank.
I removed the spark plug.
I hung the bike up with a winch to a tree, to turn the engine upside down to let the oil drain out of the engine, and drain it did. It was seriously pooled oil in the crankcase.
I let the bike back down onto its own wheels.
I cleaned the carb with compressed air after ensuring it needed no parts replaced.
I reconnected the oiler tube.
I filled the oil tank with 2-cycle oil.
I filled the gas tank with regular 87 Octane.
I reinstalled the spark plug.
Bike fired right up and smoked a bit as it cooked off the last of the liquid oil in the engine.
I ran it around the yard for ~30 minutes.
All seemed well, I sent him video of it working and he came and picked it up.
I told him to hold off on thanking me until he trialed it for a solid weekend.
The following week he thanked me, it worked great.
I watch videos like this because I hate sitcoms and "regularly scheduled programming".
"But, how are you able to see emergency messages?"
A one-time payment of $80 buys a tv antenna that gives free tv for years if I want to watch it, but youtube literally covers everything nowadays.
Been mixing 6.4 oz oil, to 2. 3 gal of gas for 31 yrs. Never had a problem. I use any old 2 stroke oil I find by the gallon at walmart. Works fine.
Yep I use the Wal mart super tech and Murphy corn gas. 1/2 pint to every gallon of gas. One thing that really helps the older saws is to convert them to electronic ignition.
5.46 ounces API-TCW3 oil to 2.0 gallons gas/petrol for 15 years without a problem.
Then one day used farmer's old barn 2TC oil & cost me a new piston & rings.
STIHL/Husqvarna/Oleo Shell Nautilus two stroke oils cost far less when purchased in 5 litre containers.
Yes things have changed in the past 15 yrs, me too, so
also add Lead (LRP replacement) additive of 1ml : Litre of gas/petrol.
Some of my 2-stroke engines require 40:1 and some require 50:1. I just mix 40:1 for everything. Even my old McCulloch gas trimmer still runs fine after 28 years. I wouldn't expect 25:1 to work very well, however. Thanks for sharing your test results
25:1 is a holdover from the days before engineered 2 cycle oil... back then, you would mix straight 30w with your gas. 30w burns off quickly so you needed more of it to properly lubricate the engine. With modern 2 cycle oils, thats not necessary because they have a much higher flash point. But some people cant seem to grasp that concept
One engine does not require more oil than another. You have got to truly understand two stroke engines or realize this. 50:1 oil mixes is great for every engine. A good example is my Shindaiwa has 25:1 embossed right into the fuel tank cap. The oil they sell for it is 50:1. The 25:1 was for other countries where they don’t have access to the high quality oil used in the rest of the world.
@@rickringler5021 Some engines do recommend more. Think what you want. I prefer 40:1. My grass trimmer is a 1994 model. My 4 chainsaws are 2005 & older. Everything runs great on a cheap 2-stroke oil @ 40:1. I would never go 50:1, but that's me.
@@driftlesshunter9200 not to be disrespectful in any way, but you, and most folks do not understand two cycle engines. They are a completely different critter. If you have attended service schools for fourty year put on by Stihl, Husqvarna, Honda, Echo and Shindaiwa you would be knowledgeable on the subject. Two stroke engines and their needs and failures is what they needed their technicians to understand.
@@rickringler5021 The key is non-ethanol fuel. I'm not losing sleep over 40:1 vs 50:1. I know what works well with my older equipment. If you prefer 50:1, so be it. You're the expert. I prefer 40:1 regardless of what the experts say. Some of my 2-strokes have a 40:1 recommendation. They sell pre-measured containers for a 40:1 mix. Whatever you think does not apply to all engines.
I'm not really into chainsaws but motorized bicycles, I've learned that there's a lot of similarities between the two so your information was very helpful, thank you.
That’s great Will! Cheers!!!
What did you decide 2 run. Im 40 1 craddle 2 grave!
I've always mixed my saw gas at 50•1never a problem and always use premium gas in my saws been using that mix since the late 80s
I work my equipment hard, I also take care of it all. 40:1 is my preferred Ratio. If in doubt I’ll add a little more. I use Amsoil in most cases. Stihl is made by Castrol which is also good oil.
I use their Saber oil. It's great stuff!
Castrol oil isn't oil it's additives to the oil. Years ago they contracted Pennsoil to make the their formula
I run all my saws, old and new at 32:1, never had a problem for 40 years
That was a great video! It was clearly obvious in the video that the saw lost power when using 25:1 mix. You could not only hear it in the sound of the engine, but visually it was noticeably slower cutting the logs.
It was running leaner at 25:1 which means less power and higher operating temperature. Carb needs to be tuned for each mixture to get a accurate test.
Been using 40:1 ratios on all my equipment, recently the stores have been out of that mixture ratio so I’ve gone to 50: 1 mix now for all my small engine needs. I just purchased a chainsaw on Amazon and it’s stated in the users manual that a mixture of 25:1 was recommended but I was using 50:1 on it, and it had my curiosity as to whether I was damaging my equipment. This video couldn’t have came at a more perfect time and answered my questions. What a great video you put together on the particulars of oil mixtures , well done ! thank you.
If you use an oil that is rated JASO-FD on the bottle, you can run it 50-1 in any 2-stroke.
Great job, Dave. As an engineer, I believe collecting data to support a claim is essential. Thank you for conducting the test and sharing this data with us.
Hey there! I’m lucky enough to have an engineer as a father, and I’ve always been a big evidence guy myself. Myths and folk lore?! Prove it!!!
I believe in collecting a claim to support data. Ever think of that?
@@DavesSmallEngines HI, would be nice to measure RPM, load and no load. And then try to adjust the carb so you have same RPM in both scenarios with different mixtures. And then take the temperatures.
In Alaska our Forestry fire fighters use stihl and run 40:1 mix in everything. They use 40:1 in their water pump engines also. I have noticed you need to tune for what ever mix you use. I run 40:1 and all my saws are tuned for it.
Less power, longer run time, higher temp. Check your cut times on the video. Try it again with a retune. 25:1 is mighty rich. The 4 stroke guys know oil contamination of gasoline reduces power. A two stroke will run better and better up to 100:1, just at the expense of longevity. 32:1 seems to be the sweet spot for me.
Actually, when tuned properly, the more oil will give you more power. It's been proven in two stroke motocross testing. A 32:1 mixture is about perfect for a chainsaw but it will require a carb re-tune to get best performance and to assure you don't get damage from running to lean.
I bought a Still 041AV back in 1967. The mixture recommended in the manual said 40:1 . I have been using that ratio all along for 57 years and other than replacing the carb and spark plugs a few time, the saw still runs great.
Great video . I think the temp is higher because of the higher viscosity of the 25:1 mix and it leaning out the fuel mix so it would be interesting to have the carb adjusted to suit the higher oil mix.
I agree! I wanted to show what would happen if the average user were to simply double up the oil.
it would help some with the sluggishness for sure, but its not going to cure the excessive smoke or the extreme carbon build up that you see in saws using modern 2 cycle oil at 25:1... Ive said it before and ill say it again... 25:1 is a holdover from the days when you mixed straight 30w because they hadnt invented modern 2 cycle mix yet. Modern 2 cycle mix has a much higher flash point than conventional oil, so it doesnt burn off as quickly. there is a flip side to this... If your saw or other 2 cycle engine doesnt see a lot of RPM or load, it can actually struggle to burn off modern 2 cycle oil even at 50:1 causing excessive carbon. Idling is actually really really bad for a 2 cycle engine, as its not generating enough heat to burn off excess oil, but also isnt generating enough air movement from the flywheel to keep the cylinder cool either. Chainsaws in particular (because the engine is completely shrouded in plastic) are not meant to be left idling for extended periods of time.
It’s important to remember the extra oil will cause carbon to build up faster in the muffler and will eventually cause enough back pressure to cause the engine to run poorly or not at all. Always follow MFGs recommendations. They’ve done all this testing for us.
Thanks for a great video! It’s always nice to see testing in real life.
I know for a fact running more oil causes more carbon buildup and that carbon ends up scratching the exhaust side of the piston and cyl. Thus causing a loss in compression
Very true, unfortunately the average guy has the more is better mentality, 70-1 is the sweet spot, what’s more important is the fuel to air ratio, fuel carries the oil.
That's why fuels were developed that were far less viscous and far more volatile than oil. Apart from some military vehicles which are equipped with engines that can run on a range of fuels including some oils for fairly obvious reasons, the slow, low compression oil burning engines are a thing of the distant past. Why return to the bad old days and bugger up your modern equipment in the process?
@@Thelivewire64 your wrong bro!
I like 40:1 in all my saws. Motul 800 offroad 2-stroke oil or Castrol a747. Stihl 2stroke oil is made by Castrol. Its their cheapest Power RS oil.
The amount of oil would HAVE to effect volatility of the fuel. It would be interesting to see the two mixtures run on a saw set up on a dynomometer and measure the difference in torque output. Great video all the same.
The oil drops out in the crankcase. I read oan article on 2 stroke motors bikes. The got the best HP at 18 to 1
@@jimbo5635 I read an article saying the same thing. It may have been the same article.
2 things to remember here ,the more oil the lower the octane rate of the mix and 2nd two stroke oil returns to its original viscosity when compressed so more oil than recommended is wasted
A very well organized and executed test. Having considerable experience with 2 cycle engines, I was surprised at the results indicating temperature increase with more oil.
Great video! Informative data. Many excellent comments. I have heard people recommend using 40:1. (Better piston/cylinder lubrication). I have been tempted but reluctant and continued with 50:1. My two non expert thoughts. Factory engineers designed the saw for 50:1 having done testing and designing and though probably not a big deal, pollutes less which makes me feel better. I really enjoyed this video. Thanks for taking the time to do this.
50:1 is an EPA mandated ratio
with good oil you'll be fine with 50:1, even on a 250 dirtbike engines we run 50:1 mix.. richer mix only lead to more carbon buildup.. i dont use stihl oil as it makes a lot of carbon buildup and loud piston ring sound..
Don't know if a heavier mix is better or not, but nothing mandated by the EPA is to improve engine life.
Thank you for demonstrating a head to head test of the oil mix debate. I have 50+ years experience with 2 stroke engines starting with the old 20:1 SAE 30 mixtures up through the 50:1 modern oil mixtures. Many people have difficulty understanding why less is best.
The Craftsman/Poulhan chainsaw I have requires 1:40. Newer saws seem to spec 1:50. It seems that the emissions regulations more than performance may have something to do with the new specs.
You guessed it.
I always run my mix rich on oil and have a few saws I've been running for 50 yrs plus with zero engine issues. Normal wear and tear are not a factor.
I was shocked to hear you say lean condition. i been out of the game for a long time but no one ever used to believe that, drove me crazy. very generally speaking and also somewhat engine specific, more oil will produce more heat (and more power). dyno's can show an increase in power down to high teens, 19:1 IIRC . obviously your test was without a carb adjustment as it should have been, only changing 1 thing at a time. there are other things to consider such as atomization. heavy ratio is "harder" to atomize and efficiency can suffer as well as increase wear more apparent on larger bore piston port engines. A KEY takeaway imho is people generally add more oil to a rebuild. people add oil or even double the ratio arguably causing more harm than good to their new or rebuilt saw. cool video, thanks.
Good video Sir, I am not a Tree surgeon but a Home user accross the pond, and I run all my chain saws on 50:1. Stihl 08s, McCulloch 130, Husky 455 rancher and a small 120. And stimmers, hedge cutter, post hole borer etc and no problems.
I have been running a Stihl 026 for 36 years now. The only repairs that I’ve ever made to this saw was replacement of the coil, clutch, pull cord and a few other typical wear parts. The saw has been cutting approximately 9-10 cords every year, plus all the misc land clearing that I’ve done. I have been running Castrol marine oil, 32/1 mix the entire time. The saw has very little carbon build up and almost no scoring of the piston or cylinder. I have replaced the spark plug very few times. How could anyone argue with this 36 year ongoing experiment?
Just bought a Farm Boss for a grandson that will get the exact same mix. I’ll likely wear out before either saw.
I hear ya, But I have a Husqvarna that I have run on the standard 50:1 ratio for 23 years with the same results. My thinking is that proper maintenance and tuning have a greater effect than fuel particulars.
The ms291 will clog with 32:1. 40:1 with a quality oil that isn’t Stihl ultra will probably be ok although it will be lean unless you break the tabs off the carb to really adjust it richer. Even the stihl original oil would be better provided the exhaust screen is removed.
@@k.d.8924my jd 50v is about 45 years old, my 346xp is is 27, my ms290 is 15? My ms 400 is 2 years old. 40-50:1 in every one for life except the jd that started 32-40:1 for a decade and now gets my mix. I used jd oil, or castroil then evenrude, and finally amsoil Sabre or echo red armor oil for the last 20 years with occasional Polaris synthetic snowmobile oil thrown in because it’s what I have on the shelf when needing mixed gas.
I still like running the 50v whenever I can, the 346 only replaces it when a brake is a good idea. The 290 was my father’s and only gets used so it doesn’t sit. The 50v was also his I got it when he got the 290. The ms 400 is trying to replace everything but when I can do it with a couple pound lighter saw the 50v and 346 still have a home. I’ve only replaced fuel and oil lines, filters and recoil ropes on any of them. They used to do 4-5 cords of fire wood a year. Now they just deal with 4-5 cords a year cut just small enough to burn the brush, have some campfires and give away the rest, so 4-6ft lengths if it’s not to big a diameter for someone to load it and take it away.
Great test, that has been my experience. I have been wrenching for more than 40 years and that’s exactly what I tell people. Run your small engines on 50:1 and it will run cooler with more power. You just proved it thanks.
Hey Trent! Thanks so much for the kind words. Glad to know it helped!
No you run at 50:1 and make the EPA happy while your crank bearings fry lol
@@shannonwhitaker9630 since when did the EPA recommend 2-strokes run on 50-1 mix? Or at least Stihl saws.
You didn’t get the Memo ? In order for engines to get “certified” manufacturers had to test, adopt and suggest a 50:1 ratio where for many many years the recommended ratio was 40:1 on the newer more modern design 2-cycle engines. Of course the old school stuff (Steel Cylinders) were advised to run at crazy old ratios of 16:1,24,32:1 ect. True 50:1 isn’t actually “the stated Law” exactly but 50:1 is what is used for emission certification testing. Hence the “mandated ratio” theme. Did you know that the certification confirmation for emissions only lasts for a pitiful number of engine running hours on most equipment before they go out of compliance. Do some reading-research and get a laugh. I suppose none of this matters for many because if they run 50:1 and use “mandated” ethanol poison fuel your stuff will most likely ruin early helping emissions greatly. Oops there goes that “mandate” word again. I run 42.5:1 with non-e fuel. I buy oil by case of 1 gallon jugs if that’s an indicator of anything. That’s a lot of running. Did you know that a lot of 2-cycle bearings are capable of lasting 2,000hrs if lubricated properly. Piston rings will also last a great number of hours before compression lowers if lubricated properly. It’s a fine line between too little and too much oil with 2-strokes. Either direction has it own set of issues. Look up the videos of guys who fool with saws every days and see what they think.
@@shannonwhitaker9630 thanks for the information. I was just curious when this became the case, because in the old service manuals for the 028, Stihl recommends 50-1 mix with their oil and 25-1 with other brand oils. And of course the older series was all 40-1 with a few with 25-1 recommended, such as the old 070 and 090.
one of my coworker uses a 30.1 fuel&oil mixture, for years. (stihl engine oil)
but yes the recommended ratio is 1/50.
iv'e been saying this all along , oil burns hotter then fuel , also the more oil you use the more carbon buildup you get which will cause scoring , thank you Dave
Awesome Michel!!!
@@DavesSmallEngines i'm thinking the apprentice might have taught the teacher a little something here , lol ,
even Steve's small engine disagreed with this idea 👍
@@marcelcanuck he did? Jeeze - I didn’t see that video!
@@DavesSmallEngines a few months ago live show with Donny ,not a big deal . i've learned quit a few things from his channel as well plus the guy is a hoot , great guy
If oil burned faster & hotter than fuel you'd have no lubrication & a seized chainsaw.
Also with the higher oil level you will likely need to clean or replace your spark screen more often. I personally use 40:1 mix for many years with no issues even on cheap Poulan saw.
My husqvarnas won't seem to run on the 50:1, even the pre mixed sthil cans. Runs then gets hot and won't run. 2 out of three of them. The 3rd one would run on water lol!
The only way to measure if more oil is better is to have the saws worked for say 150 hours then tear down and measure the wear. Hope you can set a test up like that.
Try 42.5:1
@@jamesfrank3694 It’s not your fuel causing the problem I’d bet.
@@allanmccullough8550 one has been like that since brand new. 🤷♂️ the other is pretty old
As long as its mixed somewhere between 32:1 and 50:1 it doesnt matter.minimal gains or losses either way as long as your in there somewheres and most saws will run fine for the average joe(or jane).i run a 40:1 give or take and run the dog snot out of my saws on a daily and run cheap gas station 2stroke oil and never had a problem.even with ethonal feul sometimes.what is most important is what kinda saw your running.stihl,husqvarna,echo and your going to have no issues (of course a couple of other brands also) but i only want to run them three,they are reliable and get the job done so thats what matters.good job with the video.also how you are running the saw matters considerably too.
Think of 50 to one as drinking soda and think of 25 to one as drinking a milkshake. You need bigger jets or the engine will starve for fuel.
Jetting for optimum efficiency when changing ratios must be included in the research data
Absolutely.
Yes that's the thing u hit it right. Tuned properly for that ratio I believe it would be opposite, the excess oil will remove heat out the exit hole...lol
25 and 50 represents how much gas, the idea more oil is better will be a mistake, i learnt hard way.
Great job demonstrating.
Great test. Be interesting to see what the results would be if you richened up the H mixture screw to compensate for the 25:1 mix.
It would be interesting for sure. I wanted to show what would happen if the same saw was used with the same settings. Tuning a chainsaw is beyond the scope of comfort for most folks. Thanks for watching, hope to see you back Brian!
@@DavesSmallEngines Most saws come out with autotune/m-tronic from now on, so that won't be an issue in the future. Knowing to tune a carb is mandatory, and easy, I don't know why it's always expected of people not to tune, or going with a leaner oil mix is a fix. It isn't. You could buy a saw in a shop at 8000 elevation, you go to your sea level home, and the saw now runs lean without you doing nothing to your oil-gas mixture or whatever. I appreciate the test, but the difference between 25:1 and 50:1 is 2% oil vs 4% oil. That's a 2% difference, or 2% less gas.
If the air temp is 6 degrees C colder than when you tuned the carb, that air is gonna be 2% denser, doing the same thing as going from 50:1 to 25:1 air mixture. It's just not that big of a deal in tuning, nobody has that fine of a ear when tuning so even the best at it just go slightly richer to be on the safe side and get back to cutting. It's not that big of an impact going from 50:1 to 25:1 as people think it is. Early morning to mid day temperature changes have a way bigger impact :P
In regards to 25:1 feeling more sluggish? That's again the tune or just placebo. This was tested decades ago and there's a research paper on it, I'll have to look it up and edit it on here. Max power and compression is at 8:1 fuel-oil ratio or so, and power decreases from leaner ratios more and more due to worse ring seal. Optimal ratio percentage wise for better power without going too rich on oil was 32:1. Regarding the extra oil, just use a full ester synthetic oil like motul 800 off road or similar and you won't see any smoke even at 4:1 th-cam.com/video/QLW5KEslF3A/w-d-xo.html
@@em4703 the test in the video you linked is a test on a 4 cycle engine… whole different story
The carb tuning on that saw is terrible. Shouldn't take that long to start a 260 and it shouldn't be smoking at any ratio.
This test is a bunch of BS.
The saw was started bone dry (without any fuel) before the 50:1 run. Then all the fuel was burned out before refueling with 25:1. In both cases I would expect a number of pulls would be needed to get fuel through the system.
Motul 800 2t and Schaffer’s 9000 is what I use @ 32:1 all my saws are milled/ported.
I work on and rebuild saws on the side so please everyone run 50:1 cause I can use the extra money
Awesome explanation Dave! So many don't think about the lean condition created with extra oil in the mix. Lube is great, but it's not the entire story: fuel cools the top end too!
edit: after reading most of the comments here, seems a lot of folks miss the point that this video is good info for the average DIY, homeowner, etc.: They just heard something on the internet about more oil is better, but don't really understand the need to re-tune the carb, which they likely don't really know how to do. Pros already know this.
Hey mower lady! Thanks for the kind comments. There’s a lot of folks that know more than everyone on the Internet. I’m okay with it - I wanted to do a test for the average user. I agree, most folks don’t know how to tune a carb. Thanks for stopping in!
Lady Lawnmover. Always on target with analysis and advice!
GREAT video!!! Thank you for putting this together and forever settling the argument!
Might I add, after I mistakenly mixed my fuel too rich and cutting down 14 aspen trees, my Stihl saw would not start the next day. I took saw apart and found the spark arrestor screen on muffler totally clogged. Because of rich fuel mix. There was so much soot at cylinder to muffler connection too. FYI
Those slight temperature differences could be due to a blunter chain working the engine harder by the time you got around to the 25:1 mix. I run 25:1 in all my saws both Stihl & Husqvarna XP as I prefer the extra lube as I think it gives longer service life.
You're kidding, right?
@@mikezupancic2182 If you know you know, if you don't you don't.
The 25:1 will need a carburation tuning because it will actually run leaner. This is why you get higher temperatures. Lets not confuse a rich situation with having more oil. The oil doesn’t burn like fuel and it is there to lubricate.
well now youve done it... there will obviously be no end to this lol
always go for the most oil mixture because I have 3 chain saws, two trimers, or weed whackers. a 2-cycle small tiller. and a snow thrower so I don't mix for each
Have you done small incremental steps while reading the plug? That will tell you a lot more about how an engine is running than temp ever will. I raced dirt bikes for years, and have lived out in the woods all my life. At 40-1 my HomeLite will seize. It like about 28-1. My Echo likes 40-1. Just sayin, your saw will tell you what it wants, and they are not all alike
Not an endorsement for anything but for 25 years I’ve been using Opti 2 (a one mix) for all my equipment. My 52 year old chainsaw was 16:1, other equipment was 50:1 40:1 and 25:1 and I was tired of having 4 cans of old mixed fuel around. Now 1 can, no ill effects on the old saw. In fact I used it last week and other than beating my arms and shoulders up it ran perfectly. That really amazes me, 1 ratio.
Maybe if you tune the carb for the fuel mixture it may run the same temps. You may be putting the saw under load without it being run at optimum efficiency, therefor, it struggles more and runs hotter. I am skeptical to a degree how scientific this is.
Hey Mark! Good points. I’m glad you’re skeptical - that’s what this is all about. This test shows what happens when you run 50:1 and 25:1 in the same saw with no adjustments. I did not make any carb adjustments.
I agree. Carb adjustment would have been another interesting test. Guarantee results would change. Very interesting test though.
Or at least do same test but start with 25/1 Then 50/1
That saws cutting appallingly bad. It woukd run cooler with a properly sharpened chain.
@@DavesSmallEngines it’s jetted for 50:1. So of course it will run too lean at 25:1. It will make more power and last longer at 25:1 if it’s jetted accordingly.
Personally I run 32:1 Stihl synthetic.
1. My saws are not stock, woods ported and muffler mod.
2. Well over 50 gallons of mix fuel in 8 months thru two saws, Ms260, Ms440 both running 32" 3/8 full comp,or 25" 3/8 full comp. With zero carbon deposits, clean spark plugs ( light brown ).
I have a ported 462. It runs great with 50:1 .
Cool!
Nice scientific video, I know people who use 32:1 and there saws just don’t have the pull. I personally run 40:1 in my saws
Have you tried 45:1?
@@DavesSmallEngines no I haven’t, I’ll give it shot on next gallon I mix
Use 42.5 : 1 and decarbon every once in a while.
One negative is that the octane of your fuel mixture is lowered slightly by more oil… but,on the plus side you have better oil protection, which might out weigh that especially if you use ethanol free high octane fuel.
Great video Dave!
Thanks buddy!!!!
Dony, now you got to do a similar video. Except, yours will be determinating how much power does a small engine make depending on what fuel you use. Also, lots of crazy sparkplugs out there that have huge claims like them iridium sparkplugs. Are two, three, or four electrodes better then one? Does it matter what the inner plug core is made of? Or does the cheap Champion just as good? SCIENCE! Why? Cause ya gotta.
@@stellarproductions8888 maybe team up with 'Project Farm' channel...?
th-cam.com/video/rkoFzuwtbeA/w-d-xo.html jak to naprawić przepustnica nie otwiera się do końca.....
@@stellarproductions8888 Champion isn’t the one you want…for some reason you can see a 600 rpm loss buy using one over the Ngk or Bosch is actually the one you want and what Stihl recommends..those multiple fingers are a farce… 😂👍
Always run your mix that was specified by the manufacturer. I ruined my Stihl 070 because I listened to a "professional" that told me to do 50:1 instead of the Stihl-recommended 20:1 because he said "your saw will have more power and run cooler". Well, 2 hours later my piston ring is blown...so that's that.
I recommend mixing to manufacturer recommendation, especially considering newer saws have features such as autotune.
Aside from that, I've run 32:1 premix using ONLY fresh pump gas and carb tune using the tried and true 4-stroking method for decades and haven't encountered any issues. Still running saws built in the 70's era.
Agreed I run 32:1 in all saws from 70’s all the way up to new saws, zero issues. 1000’s of cords of wood lol, -50° F to 100° F always tuned and sharpened of course.
Fresh Ethanol poison gas lol ?
With decades of experience on working with engines the safest and best bet is to always follow the engines recommendations and never the claims of these premix formulas or two stroke oil providers that claim that their gas rich formulas is good for all, those engines are built with materials and clearances and tested with the mix that they recommend as is their warranty. Sincerely, Paulie T.
I would also like to add that the only times that I personally will not follow the engines mix recommendations is if they recommend gas mixtures as rich as 50:1and I always use the best proven two stroke oils. Sincerely Paulie T.
@@shannonwhitaker9630 Yes the 10% stuff. ONLY fresh and freshly mixed.
It goes sour fairly quickly, gets sketchy.
Even fresh 10% ethanol gas is hard on fuel lines and carb diaphragms, stick with ethanol free if you don't want to deal with that.
Thank you for doing these test I would have never known
more oil is always better for the motors longevity. 40:1 and 32:1 are where I would run all of my equipment. Also you must retune your equipment when you make changes to your oil mixture.
That is not necessarily true
Stihl recommends with a genuine stihl oil 25/1 with a non stihl oil 50/1.
If you wanted to be completely fair a fresh sharp chain for the second test maybe 😅 I think my saw would have cut through that log in half the time
You see, the MAJOR FLAW in your test is that you did not re-tune your carburetor for the new mix ratio. If you are running more oil you are displacing fuel and causing a slightly lean burn. You just need to re-tune your carb a bit richer to get that extra fuel back into the a/f ratio and the saw will run just as cool and have more lubrication. If the saw has limiter locks they may need to be removed to run rich enough with more oil then the EPA mandated 50:1. I've heard that the M-tronic and Autotune saws have no problem adjusting for the extra oil if the proper warmup procedure is performed.
That wasn't the point of the video. He was trying to see what happens when you DON'T make changes. Additionally, most people don't have the experience to properly adjust and tune a saw.
@@afellowinnewengland6142then in this case he should have at least spoken about this. Context matters.
Well maybe you’ll get a refund. How much did this video cost you to watch? I know when I watch a video on TH-cam I expect the highest academic rigor, peer reviewed papers and state of the art test methodology.
@@afellowinnewengland6142 listen to the whining little fan boy that can’t handle any criticism. Your definitely a millennial.
I was wondering the same regarding how Mtronic handled the change or if it demands 50:1.
When you add more oil to the gas,you have to retune your carb for the new mixture. Plus your chain looked to be dull,with a dull chain makes any motor run hotter. The main reason they run 50:1 is for the EPA & yes the oil these days are way better then the 70's. I personally have old Homelite Saws, I use Stihl regular orange bottle mix & mix them at 16:1 & use rec 90 gas. I have the carbs tuned with the saw in the wood. They do smoke at idle but clear out once cutting. I've never had carbon build up or any problems.
Nice comparison test Dave, thanks for taking the time to do it thoroughly 👍 I suspect with a cheap Chinese chainsaw that specifies 25:1 (suggesting an older style engine) that it probably wouldn't survive long on 40:1 or 50:1 ? - The Stihl's has a rock solid motor - no monkey metal inn those bad boys 💪
its mostly because of their outdated information, or possibly the lack of availability of high quality engineered 2 cycle mix, which contrary to popular belief is much different than conventional 30w oil. If you could find a manual for an older Stihl from the 70s-early 90s, you would find that Stihl recommended 25:1 with straight 30w oil. As lube manufacturers developed better and better 2 cycle oils, the recommended ratios got lighter. If you look at some of the most modern oils like Amsoil Sabre, they recommend 100:1 because of the extremely high flash point.
The increase of temperature won't seize the engine but a higher oil/fuel will guarantee a long life of the engine. The best ratio is 1:40 for high quality engines and 1:32 for cheap household engines. many buyers reported their Stihl air blowers engines seized using 50:1 fuel:oil ratio. We cannot dismiss the facts and follow the manufacturers recommendations. Toyota claimed the trans fluid stays good for the life of the vehicle. The truth is that trans fluid starts to degrade after 100k miles. Manufacturers do not care much after your engine is out of warranty.
Great video. I have a friend who owns a tree service. He runs 32 to1 in all his saws all the time. If he's right the extra oil gives a bit more protection during extreme use. I say use Amsoil Dominator or interceptor and you are good to go at 50 to 1.
Or Sabre. or Red Armor.
@scottcrowley2061 Richard Flagg
Has it down to two oils. Sabre and
Honda Hp2. Good enough for me.
He does speak highly of Red Armor.
Just a thought along with engine tempurature and I tested several oils Pennzoil Ultra Synthetic Natural Gas Based 5w 30 The v8 liquid cooled 2011 4.8 Silverado truck on highway where road speed provides radiator cooling coolant temp stays 192.2 deg F where Pennzoil platinum runs 194 Deg F other oils run 195-197 Deg F. In your test I would like to see a piston wear test with 25 to1 v 50 to 1 my reason is this is an air cooled engine. The 2 stroke oil being the only lubricant AND Coolant maybe the oil is pulling more heat into the cooling fins and exhaust system and providing reduced friction and better ring seal. Another video on here with 2 stroke bike racers showed more power dyno tested with more oil eg the 25 to1 in there case 30 to 1 versus 50 to 1. Higher emissions but It provides more heat transfer less friction and better piston ring seal. Street race cars make more HP with 10w 30 than 5 w 30 due to better piston ring seal. But the weight and viscosity of additives to make 5 to 30w v 10 to 30w better shear resistance and less break down. Windage with 10w 30 is greater than thin oils such as 0w20 and when tested the 0w20 has less drag windage than 10w30 ability to seal better so better HP numbers are with thin oils but Wear becomes a problem. The Thinner oils wear parts faster auto mfg say they are required due to closer tolerances of todays engines. Part true but part BS as things are made to wear faster today shorter service life and replace sooner for more profit.
That was an awesome test, Dave. Your attention to detail and accuracy are commendable. Nice job! I learned a great deal from your test. Thanks!
Hey! Thank you so much!!!
Good rule of thumb is 32:1 on any 2-stroke machine, not 40:1, 50:1, or 25:1, unless for break-in.
Just thinking out loud, there’s one variable you might have missed. Increasing oil in the mixture decreases gas. Unless you tweaked the jet settings on the carbs, wouldn’t that lean your A/F mixture out? And leaner mixtures do raise combustion temps and exhaust temps.
Actually, if you measure exhaust temps, they drop when detonation begins to occur. So, I'm not personally sold on this parameter for developing a tune. I have noticed as many will testify, a two-stroke tends to make most power right before it seizes (oil film failure).
This is why I place high value in the 4-stroking method for carb tuning.
Think of it as "dancing on the head of a pin" in the sense that when detonation begins to occur, the conditions for oil film failure are also occuring. Detonation is often difficult to detect when it's occuring, it's much more evident by the way the engine runs.
Ever noticed when those last few drops of fuel from an empty tank are being used as the saw is running out of fuel, the engine feels most powerful just before it runs out and falls on it's face? It just danced off the head of the pin and you felt it happen.
@@thisisyourcaptainspeaking2259 right before my leaf blower runs out of fuel I can hear the engine pinging every time. And I know I'm low on fuel
@@MrSprintcat That's right, it's running lean at that point. Maybe you know the old saying, a 2-stoke makes it's most power right before it lean-seizes. This is because the piston overheats when the mixture is too lean. Detonation occurs (often cannot hear detonation taking place, sounds like a pinging noise), piston overheats.
Stay on the fat side, don't adjust the carburetor mixture screws too lean, avoid detonation.
Detonation occurs when the fuel stops burning prematurely, such as low octane (low octane fuel burns quickly), insufficient fuel, or ignition timing is too far advanced.
I adjust my 2-stroke carburetor as fat as I can, where it still makes good power. Occasionally this causes premature plug fouling and in that case I switch to next higher heat range plug. This kinda depends on the factory ignition timing and spark plug choice. Often, the factory timing is conservative and the plug chosen is a hair cold, to avoid pre-ignition (preignition destroys a 2-stroke almost immediately, pre-ignition and detonation aren't the same phenomenon) Too much cylinder heat (such as a red hot plug electrode) can ignite the fuel prior to the ignition event. Extremely damaging!
Some people go so far as to optimize ignition timing, ie: the pro motocross and watercraft guys, race saw builders.
I have always ran 50:1 in all my 2 stroke yard equipment. No issues
I may add a few drops of extra oil but for my Stihl I just use the motomix. If I don't know what the ratio is, I add a little extra like 40:1 just to be safe
Try 42:5:1, even better
As a small engine tech, I have seen more saws with leading to or actually at catastrophic failures, from too much oil in the mix. 50-1 with good oil and 92 or better octane is all we use, never have problems with customers who stick to this formula. Carbs last longer, stay tuned better, saw runs strong and efficiency because it was meant for that mix. The better oil and fuel ⛽️ the less carbon, less heat, heat destroys engines.
One side note the 40-1 with an oz of Marvel oil will do those who refuse to use good oil and gas a lot of good. 50-1 with quality oil and fuel ⛽️, clean the air filter regularly and your small engine will love its life and repay you double, even triple its worth.
Thank you for another amazing video Dave! I sure do appreciate all you do to make these videos for us. Have a wonderful week.
Hey Paul! Thanks so much for the kind words. Take care!
I always use Stihl hp ultra with non ethanol 100% gas. I have my own ritual. First I pour about 2" of fuel in the jug, then I add all the oil. I mix, then fill the gas to appropriate level, then mix more. Lastly, I take the empty oil bottle, pour a shot of gas in it from the jug, shake that little bottle and pour that remaining bit of oil in the jug. I do this to make sure I get every bit of oil out of that bottle. If you don't, there's always always good tablespoon worth of oil left over in the bottle, maybe that's a bit OCD.
i have run saws for 20 years with 20:1 mixed gas and never had a problem not even dirty plugs. they tell you to run lean oil mixes so you get less pollution and thats all. i had snowmobiles that blew up on 50:1 mix and i have seen old arctic cats run for 30 years because they used 20:1. drain half the oil out of your car and see how it works or mix half your cars engine oil with kerosene and see how it works. a neighbor of mine blew up a new stihl saw within 1 year and he ran 50:1. he was a logger so it got used a lot but one year isnt very long. I have mixed my gas with 40 weight engine oil at 20:1 when I was out of 2 cycle oil and it worked fine. anybody that says use less is a fool.
I think people should understand that most of these oils burn at low temperatures so 50.1 isn't much protection at high rpm unless U use like Motul 800 road racing which burns at 252 Celcius (50.1 this oil is same results 16.1 with thin oil
@@Dntgveafck2701 exactly. with stihl oil, one of the worst on planet earth 1/50 or 1/30 is very little help. that why service is full of broken tools...... use motul 1/50 and u have no pro cca 10 years . people care too much about s.t.u.p.i.d reasons and they miss basics
😄 dull chain was completely spent by the time you had to lay on it with the 25:1. Wonder why the engine was hotter? 🤔 I’ve run 32:1 since the advent of 2 cycle oil. (Earlier std. was sae 30) Zero worn out engines. I run many models from all brands. Daily.
I agree, which is why I run 50:1. Anytime you increase the amount of oil in the gas you end up with a leaner mix because the mixed gas has less gas per volume of mixed gas with the higher oil concentrations of two cycle oil. Lean means hot and your tests prove it. The key is to use a good two cycle oil and premium, non ethanol gas, plus a good stabilizer. I use Stihl Ultra at 50:1 in everything.
Or tune your saw to run on your intended oil ratio.
The best answer! :D @@callummacleod1921
FWIW I have a Stihl blower 20 years old and has been run without oil probably 10 or twelve times. Still runs like a champ!
Wow!
😆🐿️
My wife thinks 50:1 oil is optional! lol 😂
well that was a interesting outcome as Steve said Very informative thanks for taking time to share with us Dave you and donyboy73 and Steve's small engine do a fantastic job sharing your knowledge with us all keep up the great work take care
Hey Nasty! Thanks so much for the kind words. Glad to have you here
Here is a thaught.
Premix two stroke always will be a compromise.
Many of the oil injected two stroke engines deliver a different mix depending om RPM, the higher the RPM the leaner the oil mix.
The thinking being every poston stroke introduces a quantity of oil, more piston strokes more oil.
The thing that determines required premix oil mixture is required oil at idle, particularly hot idle when comming down from righ rpm, high load, hot cylinder conditions.
The carburetor moves the same volume of fuel mixture regardless of the mix ratio. Therefore, the lower gasoline content in the 25:1 accounts for the performance decrease when compared to the 50:1 mix. You can hear the difference in the video. Years ago 16:1 was a common ratio that I ran in my saws of the day. With the advent of improved lubricating oils, synthetics in particular, there is no reason to run such rich in lubrication mixtures. I even run my old saws (Homelites, McCullochs) at 40:1 now, with no problems to report. Exhaust ports and rings seem cleaner too. Good video illustration of an important point.
No not true that carb runs the same air fuel mix. When you add more oil you raise
Viscosity (Thickens mixture) so you must adjust carb richer. Just a fact.
Nicely done wait 50 to 1 I've always done 32 to 1 did something change in the last 20 years and I use any 2 cycle oil I can get at any gas station usually the cheapest my pore 2 strokes
Yes, oils are better now!