Small Machine Shop Owner FIGHTS Back Against GOLIATH Company
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 8 ก.พ. 2022
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#CNC #Machining #Machinist - วิทยาศาสตร์และเทคโนโลยี
"You can't afford to lose a customer like us"
Can't afford to lose a customer that's not paying? Everyone can afford that!
Yeah, that was what I was thinking too. And actually, by not paying they are costing money, as jobs could be done for, you know, people that pay.
The customer is king, but if they are not paying, they are not a customer.
You can go broke staying in bed......
more like we can't afford to KEEP a customer like you
@Dion Martin Profit comes from those that hold to their contracts. The customer wasn't. It seems like a big loss but if you know your trade there is always more work to be done.
I love hearing about a relatively small shop holding a big company accountable. Sounds like a great leader, with strong principles.
At least as presented.
Same here.
@@SH19922x 10 million or so a year is not a huge company. Especially with the overhead on a machine shop.
@@Scrapps97 Not small... that's for sure.
@@BlakeGibbons 10 mill ain't crap in when it comes to shops. They would still be considered small by comparative standards, albeit on the higher end of the small.
I was a machine shop owner for over 40 years (sold my company last year) and have witnessed first hand an amazing amount of appalling treatment dished out to small vendors.
Some of our clients whom we become an integral (we thought) extension of their manufacturing process had me sit in on both design and budgetary meetings. I can recall several times when top management would pronounce "squeeze the manufacturer" right in front of me at the meeting table. My answer to them would be "what sense does it make to put me out of business when I have personally paid for the learning curve to produce your parts and that ultimately you will loose money moving your parts somewhere else?"
Moral of the story became very evident: Never allow any client to become more than 30% of your overall sales. How we managed this was to build up or find other customers when one tried to monopolize us.
I have so many "cringe worthy stories to share, but it would take up a bunch of threads...
G
From experience, I can say very good advice 👍🏻
As far as getting paid, the trick is to understand the most important people at any company you sell to. And most businesses owners think it's the purchasing agent or the president. These people do matter, however it is in your best interest to "snuggle" up to the assistant of the person who signs the checks (as they can control what checks get moved into the pay stack) and the assistant to the major decision maker (they are more likely to feed you pertinent information).
Another tidbit of information is this: Never let your ego control your actions when dealing with a client. Even if you know they are wrong. Offer in writing your suggestions and if you are still rejected on your proposal do the job their way but make sure you are paid on either time and materials or a not to exceed purchase order. You will end up being paid twice for the same job. BUT NEVER take credit for the resolution, allow someone at the customer's company to revel in glory because that person will come back to you time and time again.
Don't forget this: Of course you should always provide services to the best of your, or your own companies abilities. However you are not in the Machine Shop business, you are in the business of collecting checks (or any other form of payment.)
@@tq6tq9 " you are in the business of collecting checks " I'll never forget the day I had a veteran machinist tell me something similar to that when I was new & green to my current trade. I could of easily gone down the machining route but decided differently when I heard that same veteran talking to another veteran, on lunch, say " I don't know why anybody in their right mind would want to become a machinist in today's age ".
So many of my generation, and even some older ones, truly believe that they are working in a corporate company to " do what they LOVE ", I always try to be the voice of reason and repeat to them what was repeated to me " you are not here because you like to look at widgets all day for free, you're here to make a check "; they think I'm some money hungry dispendible nobody (I do get laid off often in these "unprecedented" times), but I know the Truth.
I appreciate your comment, I'll remember it.
"I have so many "cringe worthy stories to share, but it would take up a bunch of threads..."
Or maybe another YT channel to tell your story. 👍
@@tq6tq9 Trick to getting paid is not to hand over the goods without being paid if they refuse to pay on delivery you leave easy
I own a manufacturing company myself. My partners are family and friends who had decades of prior experience, including 1 bankruptcy from a customer holding them hostage for so long they couldn't make payroll. Their advice to me when starting this business was this: we will hold all shipments once a customer goes over 60 days, and send any customer to collections if they take longer than 90 days to pay. That has saved us time and time and time again over the last 20 years - I've had customers screaming over the phone at me about how I was shutting them down, I've had customers flat out lie about making payments (which is just stupid - once I catch you in 1 lie, you better believe I'm never trusting you on anything else). Their other advice was: never sign any "Supplier Contract" or "Supplier Agreement" if those document have anything at all about pricing, or anything at all with threats regarding "Line Down" situations - you will be gouged to death. Sure, this has meant turning down potentially huge contracts, but it also means we can run our business as we see fit.
Avoid Chinese or Indian company sure they have some good companies there but their laws are on their side and they can get away with not paying you.
I learned that the freedom to do business as you see fit is the most valuable thing.
Yep. Exactly what we do. Go over your credit terms, no more shipments until you pay.
Another thing I find interesting in today's age.
Why would people lie about making payment?
It takes less time to jump on your phone and check whether or not payment has been made. You can see a payment pending on your account almost instantly.
I would add another thing to this as well and this is something I do.
When it involves deposit checks, I won't order material until the deposit check clears and the customer will not be placed on the schedule until the deposit clears.
To clarify, I am in the custom cabinet world, so we have a lot of different species of wood. Even if the customer orders a paint grade set ( standard material, always in stock), because I have been burned before, and it shan't happen again.
@@basillah7650 It doesnt matter, if theyre doing business in whatever country theyre doing business in, they have to abide by those laws, you cant sue someone because they arent abiding by your countries laws when they arent even in your country.
I love that story. I had a similar situation when I owned a company and the third largest dental chain had a team manager who was (to put it nicely) off her rocker. They owed me about 12K and we still serviced all of their branches. They were were one of our largest clients. Not the biggest but 30+ locations. Then one day I sent my pro out to service them on their regular service day and when he arrived he interrupted a luncheon for a member of the staff who was retiring. He came out to the parking lot and had me on the phone telling me she wouldn't allow him in to service the building. I was telling him to see if he can wait outside for 15 minutes or can he access the building through the back where employees parked. Then I heard her come outside and begin yelling at him and then she started mocking his latin accent and called him some names. He put her on the phone and I fired her. I fired my customer and instructed my pro to go in and collect every piece of equipment. She then started back tracking and threatened to notify her bosses. I then radioed to all my drivers who were in the vicinity of any of their locations to pull the equipment. I received a call that evening from the primary founder of the chain apologizing for her behavior. He asked to continue the service and could we restore the equipment. We did with the one important caveat. She had to apologize. She did and the was gone a short while later. You have got to stick up for yourself, your employees, and your business. The bottom line will always take care of itself if you are doing things right.
👏👏👏...You did the right thing. Women in power are damn 'bitches'.
💪🏽👏🏽👏🏽
@@terenceayer337 you should have stopped with the first sentence. We have all had male bosses that were "bitches" too.
You are good man! Hope your company keeps being successful. I bet it will.
@@terenceayer337 in my 45 years in manufacturing, the most ruthless bosses at several of the companies I worked at were females...I wish I never took those employment opportunities.
I’m ashamed to say I worked for GE for about 8 years and I was appalled at how they treated their vendors. They would beat them down to where the vendor was barely breaking even in some cases and then turn around and waste millions of dollars doing very foolish business acts.
They wouldn’t pay vendors for services and products for 180 days or more, yet demand payment from customers within 30 days or less. Their whole attitude of superiority was nauseating.
Now you see where GE is. Their stock is in the toilet and they’ve sold off most of their company.
And this guy is only one company
After Jack left Jeff ran that company directly into the ground. They lied to the entire world in 08 when GE Healthcare and GE Green sponsored the ever living shit out of the Beijing summer Olympics, all while buying massive oil and gas companies.
My father's title was "Chief Senior Engineer" in the aerospace division of GE. In the forty years he was with the company he saw them go from yearly patents that totaled the next ten companies combined to being a mostly financials company. The company made a lot of money under Neutron Jack but he destroyed the legacy of the company.
I am german and sadly, what you say about GM sounds a damn lot like the german state at the moment, _including_ the anti-social payment morale. I know a lot of craftsmen who did extensive work for some state owned company, authoriy or even ministry and then often had to wait for months to get the payment that was agreed on or even had to fight for it in court, because the state tried to weasle out of the payments with the most threadbare excuses and accusations.
Also, the german tax system works like that - you have to make a lot of payments _in advance,_ based on what the tax office _thinks_ you made. And in case you do not make those payments ASAP, you are in massive trouble and facing distraints, impoundments and even jail. And mind you, the estimations the german tax office is basing those payments on don't have to be accurate even by a longshot and you still have to pay. If they believe you made hundred thousand bucks profit, while you actually just made 10.000, then, well, tough luck.
But when their calculations finally not only show that your advancement payments where way to high, but also that they owe you considerable tax returns, well _then_ it might take a year until you eventually see your money. And who cares if your company goes bankrupt in the meantime. Without getting any interest, of course, _this_ money just... vanishes.
I worked for one of those vendors. Generator ran into the ground, and almost took us with em.
i was a company driver delivering to a wlamart dc (they treat outside carriers like crap) at 5am they told one driver he was 10 min late and they will try to fit him in at the end of the day. he said "i own the truck i grew those strawberry's if you don't take me now i will sell the whole load on the side of the road in front of your dc and walked away. they ran him down and got him unloaded with the quickness. about 15 of us drivers stood up clapping to this day he is one of my hero's.
Good to hear. I work for a large corporation as an engineer, and nothing pisses me off more than when the corporate billing people (who are now all outsourced to a foreign country) are not paying the bills and hurting the suppliers I work with every day to get the work done. Good suppliers are gold.
i like it when small companies stand up to big evil companies and win against them
I've been there.
I worked for a large company and it was part of their strategy to not pay sub contractors for months. Eventually some sub contractors refused to supply any more materials, causing delays on our production line. The company is not in business anymore.
Sounds like it was good & right for them to go broke.
Yep! I have sat in on meetings describing exactly what you posted!
yea I worked for one that would automatically slice 10% off of every invoice on contracted work.. and then tell the contractor to take him to court for the rest ..
@@borderreiver1806 what arseholes. What was the long term effect of this?
I would say i will spread the word on his scamming others of money.
@@pebblepod30 The long term is that the contractors (that also speak to each other) simply add 20-30% to their offers for this specific company. It doesn't make sense at all except very short time cost savings.
When I was doing contract work for UBS in Chicago, the agency that placed me there was jerking me around with late payment, so I told the customer that I hadn't been paid, and they didn't own the code I'd written until I was paid. Their legal department came down on the agency like a ton of bricks, and I got paid the same day. They didn't try it again.
Similar situation, had a task end, I'd told the client a few times over the previous weeks that my task was ending, and my placement people hadn't put a new task in place. On the last day, I finished my awesome notes, left em on the desk, and went home. The next day I rewarded myself with some chill time at home. Just about lunch time I get a panic call from the client asking why I wasn't there, and I reminded them, my task ended. She politely said she understood, and sorry to bother me. 4 minutes later I get a frantic call from the placement people asking if I could please go to the site, and promised there would be a task order in my email before I walked on site. Turns out, every time I mentioned my task ending, she called them, and they assured her everything was fine. When they let me expire, she called them and said if I wasn't on task before she was done for the day, all of their other tasks would be cancelled.
It’s incredible these companies are trying this. Pure fuckin scumbags wow
Thats a pretty huge legal issue those idiots opened themselves up to.
No wonder their legal department came down on them hard.
Fascinating what people will try 🙄
Nice 👍
But I wouldn't blame the entire company for that, especially the big boys. They have surrogates and VPs and salespeople that deal with all that and they're usually motivated by keeping costs down and making money for the company so they can advance within it.
It's absolutely the company's fault for allowing that culture to exist, but it's usually one guy trying to pull a fast one so he can look good at his next evaluation for promotion.
Good job for hopefully fcking him out of that promotion 👍
@@keithsj10 dude it is a culture issue on a company. If one person is doing it they're all doing it in the company.
I had a job interview the day before yesterday and at the end after they'd said they were happy with my interview, asked if i would give them a "free shift". I asked what they meant and it was "you know, to see if you're a good fit for the organisation and to see if you like the role.
I replied that I wouldn't be applying for it if i didn't like the role. They keep pressing that i give up my time for free. I asked what they would give up for free and the look on their faces was bewilderment to say the least. Before they could reply I went on "you're asking me to give up my time for free. I can do this role as demonstrated by my referees and CV, so what will you give up if i give you 8 hours of my time for nothing?
They said that's not how it works. I advised that i have 20 years experience and if they wanted to see it in action, they'd have to pay for it.
They called about 5 mins before i watched this tv advising they would offer a paid trial.
don't back down folks. if you know you're worthy, you know your worth.
Corporate greed sue the hell out of them and publicly expose them,such a heart warming tale thank you
At my last job, we had a contractor on the road to deliver us equipment to use on a temporary basis. We had agreed to $50k, but while he was transporting it to our site, one of our people tried to negotiate it down to $30k. The contractor counter offered $80k and refused to negotiate back down to the original price. It was wonderful to hear. I ended up getting fired last week from that hellhole.
And for what?… to maybe get a pat on the back from the higher ups?… that’s just crazy…
YEP. if client or vendor wants to renegotiate terms midstream..... up is as easy as down !
My Dad was the GM at a screw machine shop, and he had a GIANT customer who wanted to pay net 90, my Dad told them his shop is net 30. They blew him off until his parts didn't show up after 30 days, They called in a panic because an assembly line was about to shut down and he said, I told your sales guy we're net 30 not net 90, he was promptly paid and all ended well, but he wasn't going to be bullied just because that customer thought they were a big deal.. 😀
If a business customer can't pay in 30 days I'm just gonna assume they're either insolvent or not trustworthy and not worth doing business with. No excuses. Private customer, I'll give a gentle reminder. Some people are disorganized but a business being disorganized is inexcusable.
I ran an auto shop for a while, ten staff three mechs plus myself. We were net ten on all repairs, we had several customers with large fleets, they all paid. Set your policy, work the policy and be accountable both ways. Then when they don't pay hold their shit. It's your materials and time did that for them.
Could you explain what net 30 means vs net 90?
@@boomchacle6717 Net 30 is for letting them pay the invoice in 30 days. Net 90 is for letting them pay the invoice in 90 days.
@@stephanbranczyk8306 Thanks. Yeah 60 extra days without payment seems like kind of a big deal
I worked 12 years in the CNC manufacturing industry. Always the same story. Big companies always cut corners to avoid paying more or not paying at all. Good for you. My motto is “pay on delivery or go somewhere else”.
The aerospace plant I worked at did the same thing to a supplier, one in which we had outsourced about 80% of all our machining. We ended up having to pay them $5 million just to get our tooling back. LOL.
Hearing a massive company absolutely getting railed by a small business does bring a smile to my face
Happens all the time...let them go
Sure does lol
Just like this boss, I went toe to toe with some big people and lawyers. One customer owed me 20K on a project and wasn't paying. The company lawyer sent me a letter on why they weren't going to pay. In my rental contracts, I had a clause that if the customer tampered with my equipment they would owe me the replacement cost. They had overspray paint in the equipment, nothing I couldn't deal with but by the letter of my contract, the equipment was worth 100K. Enclosed in my answer to the lawyer was an invoice for $100,000.00 for the equipment. I was paid my 20K the next day by Fed Ex. I never went to college but I beat one of the largest law firms in Ca. I felt pretty good that day.
Okay, that's pretty awesome. A crime is a crime, and criminals need to face responsibility.
@@mbpm6135 pretty sure that was a breach of contract, not a criminal offence ;)
@@critical trodde inte man skulle hitta dig här :D
You fucking legend.
Lawyers are king in a court room, but they know nothing of business in most cases unless they specialize in contract law.
I worked in the Oil Service industry for several years, and it is the same story: companies have people hired specifically to find ways of not paying vendors for services provided. I was absolutely appalled by this, but have come to find out many companies are like this. This happens when a company's greed outstretches their morals.
This guy, the boss, is what makes me PROUD TO BE AN AMERICAN !!🤓👍🏻👍🏻 My business was almost CRUSHED by a larger company who paid invoices at 120 days, 150 days, etc. It damn near broke me and my6 year old company. They sent me a " we gotta have this job done in 8 days or we lose a GIANT CONTRACT" I told them I would start when our billing was paid up. 2 days later I had a check in my hand , for $212,000.00 And it was the last job I did for them, my choice, NOT THEIRS!!😎👍🏻👍🏻
So, the story is about an american company trying to steal from another american company, and that somehow makes you feel proud to be an american. Can you tell us more about it?
A small business owner manipulating events to get a " slow paying " company to pay their damn bill DOES make me proud and happy!!!
No matter what your contract requirements for timely payments, Government entities, large businesses, etc . will pay, for the most part, whenever they damn well please !! Their belief is that the smaller co. is willing to get screwed, payment wise, so they can have more of the scraps the bigger companies throw their way.
It can, and does, destroy many small businesses. If you're waiting for final payment for 90+ days and you have employees, overhead, etc. biting at your heels, it's time to lien the job and even then, if it's a longer term project, molasses slow payments can break many sub contractors regardless of contractual obligations, they don't care about their subs the same way that we treat OUR subs !!! We know that timely payments are the lifeblood of smaller companies.
@@rincewind549 I belive this is not only american problem. It worldwide. The opurtunity to not pay is just to big. Sad how the world works just jungle law
@Karl with a K wow ur post is one of the most delusional things ive read on ytube.
@@rincewind549 My thought exactly. The big nasty American company with the lawyers and lobbyists. Time to waive the flags boys.
Sounds like a good bloke who wouldn't let scumbags push him around. The world needs more of these people.
Yeah top stuff!
Nice to hear when the relationship between employee and employer is one of mutual respect and goodwill as well
And how much do you want to bet that when customers were asking where these parts were, the big company tried to shift blame on the machine shop saying something like "we're experiencing communication issues with our fabricators."
That's the goal of globalism. When one group is getting shafted and decides to say fuck it and either protest or just forget about the whole world will have to stop what they're doing and focus on who isn't producing the agreed upon bullshit. Just like rich blaming illegals for stealing your jobs but being the ones who actively change legislation to import them so they can take advantage of them and pay them less. The whole point is to force people to interact to the point of one person doesn't tow the line they can blame that person and the world must collectively punish them together because everyone is equally affected. That's what they push globalism for. To blame the world's problems on the first little guy who doesn't like it and decides not to participate. If you do t participate in the big picture apparrently something is wrong with you. A country wants to be isolationist? Must need some invading. One guy wants to live alone in the woods? Must be a terrorist. This is goal of globalism. Get everyone trapped in a situation they have no choice but to do or punish others who don't.
@@Hcaz1113 Nah. It's just greed and hunger for power. No need for globalism. It's a story that's been duplicated since the dawn of economics.
@@farmergiles1065 I'm not saying that's the case here but that is the case for anyone who think one planet one people one country shit wanna push. Force everyone to participate via terrorism basically.
If your doing your job right you just contact the fabricators directly. You'd soon find out the truth.
Thanks for sharing that story, that was fantastic. As a salesman for 35 years, worked for distribution and manufacturing.
I witnessed this all the time.
An eye opener story for small vendors who are misused by big companies.
This is a reality story. Thanks a lot
I used to work at an aluminium window factory and we were negotiating to supply windows to a housing development company that was doing a huge residential development, we had to cut our profit to the bone to get the job, it would be 9 months of 100% capacity in our factory so was pretty significant. I was trying to convince the boss to do it and he turned around to me and said , it's great, 9 months of 100% capacity work, but what happens after the 9 months when all our existing customers have gone elsewhere because we are too busy to serve our existing customer base.... I had never thought of that.....
Experience and life lessons. These are the things you take away.
Who’s the window company?
Sound business practice and common sense.
I'm reading all these stories of the little guys propping up these megacorps. The same process has played out in retail. Before Walmart, if a person dreamed of opening, say, a shoe store, with saving and help from friends and family one could. Those days are gone. Small retailers can't buy wholesale what Walmart retails at and this is all because we've allowed megacompanies that grew to monsterous proportions following deregulation starting in the 1980's to profit at obscene untaxed levels of wealth to the point that now a handful of individuals control the lives of millions of employees. Manufacturers were so deperate to have product in Walmart that they basically whored themselves out of business. The Walmart model seems to be to pit two manufactures, say for example Coke and Pepsi, against each other to drive product cost down which usually comes straight out of the manufacturer employees pocket by eliminating costly benefits like pensions, health insurance and raises. Meanwhile those smaller number three companies that couldn't compete (for our example we'll use RC cola) began disappearing from even competitors' shelves because the price differential made their product uncompetitive. This led to a lot of companies into moving their facilities to slave labor nations while simutaneously gutting our manufacturing ability and those living wage jobs that made America a strong middle class nation. Working at McDonalds in order to buy cheap foreign made crap at Walmart and working at Walmart to eat at McDonalds is not a sustainable economy. So as the worker class now depletes its generational wealth (inheiritances) paying down credit card balances, the capital drains one way and that's out of this country. You can thank the man and the party that vilified unions as being anti-competitive to win over voters who are incapable of understanding how an economy works. America once had a practical monopoly on manufacturing and manufacturing equipment in the world. I understood this early on in the 1980's when so, so many CNC manufacturers started hitting the auction block. Money means nothing as whoever controls capital manufacturing equipment controls the relative price. You can only sell equipment once, if you use the equipment to manufacture you have income for life. We can change all this overnight if we can vote knowledgable uncorrupted people into office. Both sides of the aisles of Congress are to blame for illegal immigration. The Democrats on humanitarian grounds with the hope of future voters (the children of illegal migrants born into this country) supporting their causes and the Republicans who are bought and sold by big labor-hungry industries like agriculture, meat packing and cookie cutter housing developers. Companies of certain sizes should have to "up" employee benefits each time they reach a certain employee level in order to offset the buying advantage a megacorp has over its smaller competitors. This will diversify wealth and see the re-emergenge of regional and even local businesses. I seriously doubt this will ever happen because the same megacorps are spending so much to spread misinformation to confuse voters for people to ever wake up and understand the root cause of this country's decline.
@@ricknoyb1613 This was all by design. It is the reason that our money has lost 98% of its value. It is the reason why we are over regulated. It is the reason that we are facing a sovereign debt crisis. Soon, they will take casj away and introduce the digital and the central bank digital currency and good bye constitution. Too many stupid sheep in North America that do not learn from history. People there is a difference between democrat and republican but they do not realize they are soldiers for the global ruling elite. It is all connected. In the end, people keep watching CNN, ABC and the other MSM thinking they are being told the truth while they are being herded like sheep for the slaughter. The World Economic Forum and Klaus Schwab said the people will own nothing and be happy. Get because they are getting ready to crash the system and bring everyone to their knees. Things will be three times worse than 2008.
I remember my dad a small contractor being owed nearly 50 grand by this big earthmoving company eventually he contacted their national head office as he wasn't getting anywhere with the regional office. He got his money in 2 days the regional office was apparently not paying promptly due to poor management looking after their favourite contractors first. A few months later that regional office had 2 of its management staff fired due to some shonky behaviour. That national company did the right thing but their reputation was damaged due to some staff.
Shonky
Eh, at least the higher ups in the company did you right. Still not fun BUT.
If only we had more people like you, what a wonderful world it would be
Made me laugh with memories. My partner and I had a manufacturing business and one of our bigger customers (not as big as yours sounds) was a major light bulb manufacturer. They had large monthly orders with us and every year pushed us for lower and lower prices. Finally one year we had enough and went to their offices to discuss the problem. Before we could get a word out they said that from that point forward we would ship to them and they would pay for the product only when they used it from their own inventory shelves. We looked at each other and then told them goodbye. Made much more profit and a lot less headaches using those machines for other customers.
It's like the hated you, geeze
@@TurboV8boi Some companies try to always save as much money and rob other companies for their own benefit, companies like this don’t last long.
What!!???
Which manufacturer was it?
@@Anonymous-qp4zf Don't like to name names. They are one of the biggest ones in electrical devices. You could say they are so big that if they were in the army they have the highest rank.
I've been self employed for 20 yeas and it never ceases to amaze me how some people think handing out abuse is something any seller will take. I sell some stuff from home and once in a while I've had some people think they can show up here and run there mouth at me for literally no reason. I treat all customers with respect and honesty and the second they won't do the same in return I tell them to get lost. Take it elsewhere. Whole reason I became self employed and suffered through the process was to get all that out of my life.
I have a customer who tried shouting in my ear on the phone, "Click". He called back and opened up with shouting "Click". This time his sweet wife calls and very politely asked about an error on their WO. Apparently suffix Jr had been attached to the name and was unnecessary, corrected in less then a minute.
She's still an occasional customer but I don't see or hear from that husband of hers anymore.
@@warriorfire8103 I've had more than a few do that. Mostly its people on Marketplace I've blocked for getting silly and they have their spouse come out and buy something. I can always tell if its something that has been sitting for awhile then I get the two people in short notice messaging me. I have yet to have one admit to doing a sneak around on me blocking their spouse. What gets me is the real crazies. I'll never forget this woman who years ago, out of the blue told me she could 'kick my ass'. LOL who says something like that? Just a bizarre thing to say.
Why do you use a NIV?
@Karl with a K who pissed in your cheerios
It's the new norm today. Went from customer is always right to do what customer asks or they will use their "massive social media presence" to get everyone to boycott your product...
I worked in manufacturing for a couple of decades plus and having a single or just a couple of suppliers such as this small machine shop only means a disaster waiting to happen. The abuse that bigger companies can exact on the little guy is incredible.
This... this is that little boost i needed, i love hearing about stories like this
I am that man as well. I private label cutting tools for a large supplier. They will become another customer I’ve fired for non or slow payment, and probably won’t be the last. I’ve done it a few times over the years, and not once regretted it. A very wise man once told me, “ there are far more potential customers out there who don’t know of you yet, than who do. Go find them and you will be just fine”. That man is my CPA and is retiring this year. Do what you know is right. Fire that customer who only uses you….
Sold coiled steel to tube manufacturer that owed excess $50,000 and was 100 days out on invoices. Got assurances week after week we'd get a check for the oldest invoice. I pulled the credit references customer provided and started calling them, explaining to those CFO's how we were being dragged out on payment. By the time I hung up the phone with the third reference the president of the tube company was calling me, madder than a hornets nest asking what I was doing calling his references and I'd never get another order from them again. My reply; "Fine, the only way I would be able to sell you steel is cash in advance. I just want to get paid, and every Friday I will continue to call those references letting them know I still haven't been paid; so think of it is that you're buying my silence". That was on a Friday afternoon, the next Tuesday we received a check for the entire balance owed.
Yea I’m sure that happened.
😂😂
@@anthony5227 its funny that you think everyone else like yourself is a loser irl and has no life stories
@@anthony5227 You clearly don't seem to have any real world experience in manufacturing/business.
@@anthony5227 tell me you've never worked anything more than minimum wage fast food jobs without telling me
@@deusvult6920 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂 yes you’re correct.
Tell me you’re expressing your personal sadness and insecurities without telling me.
Thank for telling me that story I needed to hear that! Glad it turned out great for Y'ALL
Truly inspiring story with an absolutely true message thanks so much for sharing this. Props to you as well great storyteller.
This seems to be a problem, but it's a blessing in disguise. As a small business we have experienced similar issues. I used to fret about "losing" a "good" customer, but after it happened a few times when I was very young, I realized these customers where the most disruptive to our business. They never had their paperwork right, they always paid 3-6 months late, and they were the most demanding. Always wanting stuff done in a hurry and wanting something special. I finally had a enough and cut them off. While the bottom line did suffer, it did so for only a short time because now I was able to devote time to our other customers and promote the business. But the best thing was I was not so stressed anymore. Best thing that ever happened to me. Learn from our experiences: customers like that are not worth the headaches.
this is a world wide problem sadly,
This is somewhat what's happening at the last job I worked at. Fortune 500 company that paid a ton of money, they also want us as an MSP doing easy work so it's effectively passive revenue. Thing is, there is very little support for the MSP feature and would require a ton of development that ultimately we wouldn't own; they own the code while the best we can do is get a perpetual license. So we are doing a ton of work for them on a weekly basis already, then we'll be doing work on a frequent basis afterwards, and everything we create during that time period relevant to them is effectively what they own. This is on top of being on support for their internal team to go through the code (honestly I created, tested, and documented 99%+ of the code and that number is not an exaggeration so it's a sore spot for me) so there's nothing really stopping them from cutting us off later once their own guys milk the company for all it's worth. The higher-ups I worked with from my last company pretty much made it obvious that we're more than willing to bend over at their behest so I can only see it going south (we've already done some things out of scope and are honestly putting in more work than we should be for the expected project timeline in order to get things done on time. But we don't want to get them annoyed so we just shoulder on the work, a good chunk of which fell onto me 😭).
I left for a few reasons, being overworked and feeling frustrated with how we're being dominated by a client (even if it's a fortune 500, we've set the precedent that we can only grovel at their mercy) definitely played a factor though. The company's actions as a whole are just so heavily influenced by the CEO's greed and the culture to "win, win, win" that it doesn't feel like the company is willing as a whole to take a hit in order for a more sustainable long-term future. So disappointing because there were some cool folks and I actually got along with everyone, it was definitely bittersweet to leave.
@@yerpderp6800 Only way to address this issue is they a debugging/modding clause in the contract. You can either lay claim to ownership of that code or you can charge them a fee for your time/work. You can also charge them per hour for support. They may not accept it, but you can try.
I was working as an independent contractor in 2016. I had a big company that I do part time work for, for the last 12 years. The last year I did work for them, they had gotten a new General Manager. On one event, he refused to pay me the amount I was due, $30k. He felt I did a terrible job. We ended up in County Mediation Court. Long story short, I walked out with a $30k check. The bigger they are, the harder they fall.
I really needed to hear this. I work in the laboratory equipment field and I often would repair and advise people for next to nothing. My new boss showed me my value .long story i had a friend who was setting up a laboratory and I helped problem solved a expensive problem. I was just happy to fix the issue and expect my pitance of a pay .My new boss gave me 10 times what i would normally get and he said they got off cheap .Turns out that my last boss was whoring me really cheap .I feel so much better as i always had anxiety about my self worth
Glad you grew some balls. Don't even let anyone take advantage of you.
This is an awesome story ………great seeing the little bloke standing up to the money hungry corporate company’s 🙏🏻👍
I lived in a small town that had a very large specialty pulp and paper mill machinery fabrication shop as one of the biggest employers. Sadly this company was taken over by the kids of the founder. And these entitled wankers started to screw the local small suppliers and subcontractors on a regular basis. They got to the point that some of the small suppliers were on the verge of closing. One subcontractor finally had enough and refused to deliver the parts the big outfit needed until they were paid in full. The small business got paid and walked away from doing business with the big guy. That started a groundswell and multiple other small companies started demanding payment in full on the day of delivery.
The big outfit went broke. Their reputation was so bad even the local banks wouldn’t loan money to them. They closed their doors and screwed over their employees. Sadly so many people got hosed by the spoiled brats of the founder of the company.
Tale as old as time. Sometimes the kids fail to learn valuable lessons about business management from the parents. I suspect there's a local car dealership chain that's going to go through that same process if the grandchildren of the founder don't get their sh*t together. Time will tell, as they only took control a couple years ago. But they were employing every shady tactic possible when I worked for them.
Moral of the story don't hand down your company to brats
@@bradknightable Moral is to cultivate your children to be the people you want to have in charge of your legacy. Being the big man of the house and not being a father will make crap children.
BAM did the same, not paying, in Europe and got away with it. So did a big windmill farm tycoon. 2 big local family companies who were good to their employees were taken out that way because they could not stand up to these super big global companies.
Your story, sadly happens more times than not !
Especially when the offspring's hearts are not all in !
Even in the small town I live in, we locals have watched more than one established business fold, either from the younger adults (?) over spending, Drug use, or any manner of both, ruin what had been well respected, years old, Family businesses !
The same is true once parents die, and leave property to their kids.
They may occupy the property for a short time, then it becomes a rental, and the decline begins !
As they say,
" The Rest is History " !
Sad but True !
I feel your story, Big customer often overextending their payable accounts just to avoid paying taxes and gain floating interest from their bank accounts, almost every company do this not only in manufacturing sectors. This nasty book keeping happens, the only way to survive is indeed to push them and cut their supply chain or go to their main customers if possible.
Very good story. Thank you for sharing! It reminds me that one of the rarest, most valuable and most perishable commodities in any market is integrity. Doing business with honor and integrity with another business that similarly values honor and integrity is often a dream not realized. It is one of the very reasons why we are having such a hard time economically in this country.
First time to your Channel I love how this owner stood up to a very big company and showed this big company who's boss God bless this company I hope it's still in business
Was in a very similar situation as a small mold maker. I locked up and moved all the molds that were in my shop belonging to the customer, notified them that to get any mold all prior bills needed to be paid and they were now on 50% up front and 50% COD. In panic, the accounts payable person cut a check for all past due invoices.....but it gets better.
At the same time, I was called by the purchasing agent and the engineering manager and asked to come to a meeting with them. When I arrived they decided to try and bully me by bringing in the VP of Purchasing, VP of Engineering and the VP of Finance. I stood my ground so they ordered a check for cut for everything I was demanding and I then told them that when the checked cleared, I would release the tools. Several hours later a clerk brought me a check for everything I had demanded 2 days ago.
The ironic part is that their systems were so poor, they didn't know they had already paid me yesterday close to $200k in an attempt to get me to back down. They paid that again also. Didn't say a word, deposited the check and never touched the excess. 13 months later, with the money still sitting there, the customer went bankrupt and I never heard from them again.
proudly moral thief i see
I guess their accountant didn't get paid on time either!
@@mouserr I figured I would make them wait as long as they made me wait.......oh, and they never asked so I thought it was a tip or compensation for not paying me on time per our agreement.......consider it an out of court settlement.
@@sittingindetroit9204 it was asshole tax.
That.Was.AWESOME!!!
Great post! I personally learned that lesson in the early 90’s….let no customer become the majority of your business.
That is so 100% true.....when I was retrenched at age 60 I had to look for another job to obtain Social benefits and managed to get a part time 5 hours a week job with a welder and eventually worked 5 hours a day 5 days a week for him......he was subcontracting to a large company, about 80% of his work load, and long story short after I retired one day they told him the contract was finished as they were going off shore.........a year later he closed up shop and went courier driving.
very good story. I worked for a company and had to fight to keep the vendors I contracted with on a 30 day pay cycle. The company wanted to stretch the terms to 60 days and I told my bosses that while you can do that, one of two things would happen. Either we wouldn't have the services of the vendors OR the rates from the vendors would go up a significant percentage. The bosses grumbled at the presentation of what I told them but they gave in and kept the pay terms at 30 days. Another goliath against the little guy.
oh, I know many who would pad every quote, to cover carrying the invoice past terms... they would double or triple their prices. These projects would be hard to determine they were padded. Many of the fees were for trip charges or ambiguous labor. I do not do that, it just is not my personality. I would fire the client, get final settlement, and wish them a bon voyage.
What a fantastic story, thanks for sharing
A lot of machine shops have gone belly up when customers stopped paying, and then the customer would buy up the bankrupt machine shop for pennies on the dollar.The fact the the raw material that was in your place was so expensive and you could sell it for scrap was the knife in their back.
Anyone who actively destroys businesses to buy them cheap deserves the death penalty. But "laws" only defend people who "contribute" to society. Hence why "job providers" get to avoid taxes and are praised as heaven sent kings who provide for their peasants. Fucking bullshit.
@@Hcaz1113 Sears used to be one of those buzzards. I worked for a die shop that built a lot of dies for can companies. Back in the '70s, our biggest can customer wanted us to only build dies for them, The owner of the company said thanks, but I will never put all my eggs in one basket.
Yeah companies like Amazon
@@drew8642 amazon is doing something more sinister. They are choking the local small businesses ecosystem. Corporate America has zero over site and zero accountability.
@@drew8642 They love to go to for "Cheap S_it" place like China that they pay 1/10 of what they pay us. All American company love cheap struff from CCP.
One thing far more important than being respected is 'Self Respect'
Inspiring. Without Dignity you are nothing. I admire the owner for standing his ground. Regards from India
Man I needed a good story and this one hit me right in my two sizes too small heart. Love when men stand against the rising tide.
Same issue I’m going through. My “big” customer is trying to bully their way with prices and payments. Problem is I don’t play that game. I have other means of support besides them. They’re about to realize how much they will miss me.
I back YOU.
when it is time to pull deal with losers put on the cowboy logic that Michael martin murphy sing about. you have 3 cowboys sitting in a pick-up which one was the cowboy it was the millionaire in the middle
Be like Ill sell them OEM on amazon !
@@npcwill283 you got the product take the money and let the big boy baby cry away a river of tears they did not play nice in the business sand box. read it and weep tears in your high price business suits from the high priced Ar-man-i clothes or maybe the aesop's fable of the a blonde hair trumpster who.thinks he is a royal monarch and he ain't. he may be king of the faulty towers but the trumpster was impeached twice and voted out of office by such a small margin that he thought he could force his vice president mike pence to trow the election closer to the loser trumpster. i salute mike pence for doing the right stuff and saying he had no authority to play the games trumpster and his junior and his now jewish blondster ivanka a copy of the faithless father and ex wife ivana. trumpster make american great again by playing with biden angcat and mouse player rutin tutin pollutin putin. that russian game called russian roulette with live ammo in alex balwins revolver that mis fires and kills and maims innocent bystanders
@@mrwaterschoot5617 . youve sniffed way too much glue.
This is such an important message for managers, employees, young laborers - it's just such a profound message about integrity and courage. Blessings on that man and his company that will supply his family for generations to come
Conversely, it's amazing what vendors will do for you when you treat them well.
Brave action. Well done. You have your integrity intact.
I can't tell you how much I admire the stand that is demonstrated here !!!! SOME
PEOPLE WILL PUSH YOU AS FAR AS YOU LET THEM. GOD BLESS YOU ALL, for doing what you know is right.
Realizing you have value means not selling yourself cheap. Great video! Thanks. The dirty tricks of big business are epic. I've noticed the first sign of a good company's decline is when they market their product in a 'big box store." Quality begins to fall off first, then sellout to some merger, then their name falls off list that customers respect.
I read that Walmart is notorious for this. They start to buy from a small manufacturer, and then Walmart becomes the biggest customer composing 60+% of their business. They then require a cost cutting of 3% per year. Initially that is pretty easy, but it gets more difficult each year. Eventually, this forces a business to take production offshore, and if they can't keep going, they go under. And Walmart doesn't give a crap about that, and just moves on to another supplier and the cycle starts again. While I heard this specifically about Walmart, I can't imagine they are the only ones doing this.
@@JeffFine Exactly! Friends of mine had a plant nursery business and to meet demands of both Walmart and Lowes, they expanded their operation only to face "contract re-negotiation" that put them out of business. "Big box stores" regularly practice bait and switch tactics.
I unfortunately learned this lesson the hard way "If you owe me a little bit of money, I have all the leverage, if you owe me a lot of money, you have all the leverage. I Learned that all the way to the bankruptcy court.
Fuuuuckk i would love to hear about your story
Damn that's deep, thanks for that morsel.
Congrats on the resolve and good luck going forward. Good message.
As a machinist, not a shop owner, I witnessed this first hand. The work as an independent shop was over 80% for the Boeing company, when they went to cutting cost and eventually out sourcing globally there parts we where in a difficult situation, with the guidance and leadership of my foreman, who eventually became part owner, we diversified are product line. We no longer were dependent on a single client. This saved the jobs of many workers. Working parts at a loss will never pay off!!
My boss did something similar to what at the time was one of our biggest customers, they started getting further and further behind, so he put a lien against our recent work on their largest job, meaning they couldn't get paid till he was.
They tried to cut him a check for just the work done on that site, and he told them that debts would be cleared in the order they were issued, so basically, "Pay us everything, now, or fuck you."
in the end, they couldn't afford to not get paid, (ironic that they seems to think we could) and gave in.
I have worked in MFG for the past 23yrs. I would love to work for a company that had that level of integrity.
AMazing Story love that you shared it!! have a very important message that all small business should keep in mind!! those big business will use you up till you selling your house and then the big company will move on to the next small one because there is always more. Stand up for yourself and your livelihood and business and it will benefit you in the end!
Great to have great leaders..
Good lesson on why you should always diversify your business / customer / product
Exactly.
Absolutely. Walmart had a reputation for years (if they still don't) for agreeing to buy X number of product for a year IF they could produce a hellava lot more so they could supply multiple stores and distribution centers.
The small AMERICAN company agreed, spent money expanding operations and met the quotas, eliminating most other customers because of the size and demands of Walmart.
After a year, Walmart came calling, asking for a mere ten percent cut in price... for the customers... in order to sign another year contract.
The small AMERICAN business, backed into a corner now, really had no choice because they spent the money expanding operations to fulfill Walmart demands and didn't diversify among other customers.
They cut costs, wages, jobs, material, quality, whatever it takes to remain profitable and meet Walmarts expectations.
They're now slaves to Walmart.
The next year, Walmart comes calling, wanting another 10% cut... for the customers of course... and the small AMERICAN business says no, they simply can't afford it, they've cut everything from everywhere, there's no meat left on the bone at all.
Well Walmart don't like hearing no. They say they'll go to another vendor if they can't meet the new lower, required, pricing.
This can go on for years until the AMERICAN company says no. Period.
So Walmart proposes an alternative. They can hook up the AMERICAN business with a CHINESE company that will build them a factory and provide cheap labor within two months if they fire their AMERICAN workers and move operations to China.
Most American companies do just that, and that's how everything is now made in China.
The end. God bless America 🇺🇲
I was with a company (large) that choose a bean counter as president. Among many 'cost;' savings to look good, he forced new terms on suppliers from net 15 to 30, 45, 60, 90 and more. In addition he forced them to carry stock to keep off our books. He got raises and bonuses was praised for his foresight by wall street. I left, and a few years later the company went bankrupt just after he retired.
It always goes that way..what a shame.
That's a great story. Thank you for sharing
Very inspirational. Thank you for sharing the details. Amazing machine work...
This reminds me of a company that owed me money for material. I finally stopped in and saw the owner. I politely told him I did him a favor by sourcing material no one else knew where to get. He asked If I received a check would I hold it for X number of days. I agreed, at least I would have that. After going to my vehicle i thought that I never could trust him before, why should I now. I stopped at the bank the check was drawn on and requested a cashier's check for it, this was something one could do in New York state. I left with the cashier's check thus assuring me of having the money, the next week that business declared bankruptcy.
Any reason for converting into cashiers check instead of depositing it directly? Stop payment works in both scenario the same?
@@kevinvvn cashiers check when drawn has to be covered by cash.
@@kevinvvn In NY there is no stop payment put in place readily. Also since the money was in their account the conversion to a cashier's check meant instant protection for me. If I had allowed my bank to process the original check it allowed tine for someone else to remove funds from the account the debtors check was drawn on. I learned in previous situations to take control and do it quick.
@@retiredlogman makes sense. Thanx for explaining. Things like this, I can remember forever. Its very smart and instant way, and i would never have known.
@@retiredlogman did you have a metal distribution business? if so how are things going for you now?
I learned early in my small business ownership when someone would refer a "rich" customer, vouching for them, saying "they always pay, they've got tons of money." Those were the guaranteed C.O.D customers. No pay, no product. At least until we got a good relationship. Rich people don't get rich by spending money.
thanks for the outstanding behind the scene story. that's indeed very valuable
As an owner of a custom injection molding company I have been there and done that. Thanks for a nice story.
I used to work in a small job shop making parts for BOEING. I loved machining! I never tired of watching metal cutting metal. I loved just watching the video of the machining process, and the story was inspiring. The big shots learned a hard lesson: Pride cometh before the fall!
That big company sounded a lot like the one where I worked for years. The small shops that they needed would refuse to ship back until they were paid, which was usually 60 - 90 days out. Us machinists in the company shops would snicker because they never learned their lesson. Stop playing games and just pay the guys or start missing your promised delivery dates on your OEM product.
Simple but too many egos out there. People love to complicate their lives.
This video was better than I was expecting. Great message.
honestly, thanks for this pep talk!
As a person who has been employed by large companies who delay payments to small suppliers to the very last day, believe me, it is frustrating for decent people on the other side too. I can tell you, the engineers who had to clean up the mess for the corporation were not mad at you....but they were mad.
This is really common. Used to do work for large supermarket chains and it's easier for them to change contractor repeatedly than actually pay bills.
Wow. Just wow. Inspiring. Thank you
great story! thanks --- both you and your employer sound like men worth knowing
I went to a major business school, and one of the first things they taught in management class us was "Someone you cannot afford to loose, is someone you cannot afford to keep." It's true for both employees and clients.
So you got your MBA?
*lose
MBA's don't create value. Never have. Of the many many people I've been involved in hiring, I've never had an MBA give me a good reason for why they went to get an MBA - a piece of paper being a piss poor reason. I have a technical degree and ... I did go to graduate business school. The best way to learn about business is to run one.
That sounds like MBA logic... more like someone you cant afford to lose should not be allowed to keep you in that position, always have a backup plan. Everyone may be replaceable, but at what cost?
And now we're so desperate for employees we hire people who show up.
I used to work at a shop that the owner was chasing bottom dollar. It was terrible, the guy would complain about losing money, but then price himself down to the point that other shops would bring vehicles over to be fixed.
I worked for a guy like that once. He tried to be the cheapest in town which meant he was always broke and all his customers were cheapskates who whined and cried about money all the time. I didn't work there long, thank goodness.
I call it circling the plughole.
50 more years to come! cheers!
I grew up in small shops and saw the tensions spoken of in this excellent video. I worked where a huge lighting company out of crawfordsville Indiana put a supplier in casey Illinois out in the same way using out of USA suppliers...Devastating a small Norman Rockwell type community. Your boss is wise. My dad, a former tool and die shop owner, told me keep your customers at 15% or less of your total business so, if they pull out, the shop survives. Thanks!
Never be bullied by a large company. Only last year I was told "agree to our terms or we won't buy off you". Fine I said, two days later they agreed to my terms, ordered & paid in full. 22 years in business so far :)
Please tell me you said, the quote is higher now lol
I love to watch your machines but I also REALLY REALLY love your life's advice...
Thank you.
I'm about to go thru this myself with a company and this video actually helped... Thanks
I got to a point where I didn't want to be abused for 20 years. I figured , if I am going to work 100 hours a week then it's going to be with good people. If my business isn't going to survive , why die slowly . Let's find out if this supply/ demand thing is real. In the end ,1 door closes and another opens .
What courage and dignity. I'm so glad things worked out for your business owner. Unfortunately, there are too many weasels in business that think other people are only there to stand on. A very inspiring story.
So true. A great story for every business owner
Good on that man Iv been there it’s hard but you need to stand up to these people.
Standing on principle takes courage and many times risks financial loss. Good for him standing his ground. "He's gonna make it spectacular". That was great!
We has a similar issue, just told the customer we were going to file a lien on his equipment that was at our yard until he paid one way or another. It was amazing how fast he paid the complete balance. After that we severed ties and haven’t looked back. Last I heard he file bankruptcy and left people hanging owing them thousands of dollars. Glad we got paid.
David and Goliath stories bring a tear to my eye and just plain make my heart swell.
Great story, sounds like an honorable man that’s wasn’t going to be pushed around. We need more like him in this day and age. 👍🏻
We face that each day, every day. I can guarantee those people never think about you or your company in the same way you think of their parts. Guess it's not different around the world. Very few actually care about their partners.
yep, those companies see profits and cost, and they hate costs
Today's political environment is to destroy small businesses, that was the point of closing them during the plan demic. Only large business will be allowed for central planning in the government, easier to control supply and to whom. It's called Fascism, collusion of big business and government...
@@toserveman9265 When I hear the elitist's Democrats say they are for the working class I get filled with rage and the veins pop out on my forehead. All they ever do is screw small businesses.
Very smart and honest businessman
The engineering company that was formerly over the road from me went belly up after more than 50 years after taking on a massive job that they were screwed down to making next to nothing on. Then after the original quoting, design process and a prototype made the customer wanted the change made from a painted finish to a galvanised finish. The company adjusted the price difference to reflect the difference in cost between painting and hot dip galvanised. Sadly that wasn't the full cost though. 28 further machines had to be built, at a loss, because all of the tolerances were made for a paint finish and the hot dip gal added lots of extra thickness and almost every piece had to be hand finished so that it would again fit. The customer wouldn't budge on the price that they were contracted for so at the end of building 29 machines the engineering company went into receivership and the customer got their machines but absolutely no warranty support and 50 people were put out of work.
Yep, that is why unless it is written and signed on you get what is designed. If you want specific changes then sign a new contract and make new calculation. Sadly the big corporation rely on their power to intimidate and pressure the small companies into skipping these steps.
Also if you want a clause about late delivery/finish, then I add a clause about changing you mind and cancelling the contract midway.
Example - last month the company my mother works for was in talks for a very big order - like half a mil, but the client wanted a clause that if they don't deliver on time the price will be reduced in half. The company damn nearly signed the contract, but I managed to talk them into waiting and offering additional conditions - if the client cancels the order within 3 months of the work starting, then they will still owe half of the price and any changes to the design would require recalculations of the time and price. The client threatened they will go to someone else, but good for my mother's boss, he decided to stay firm and they left. 3 days ago the client came back begging to sign the revised contract - all other companies would simply tell them no even without offering revisions first.
Well Edelbrock, I doubt I'll ever buy a set of your cylinder heads.
?? They arent 60 billion company are they ? I was thinking FORD
Thank you for sharing! This is so refreshing, no over stipulated agenda, just a story, meant to educate & uplift. You've got a new subscriber.