Football: the business case for the women's game | FT Scoreboard

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  • เผยแพร่เมื่อ 15 ธ.ค. 2024

ความคิดเห็น • 163

  • @Rudenz8
    @Rudenz8 2 ปีที่แล้ว +23

    It requires money to make money this is the best secert I have ever heard we don't make money we make multiple money.

    • @sandhyap.jadhav4020
      @sandhyap.jadhav4020 2 ปีที่แล้ว

      Yeah you are right.

    • @sandhyap.jadhav4020
      @sandhyap.jadhav4020 2 ปีที่แล้ว

      Everyone has the mind set of investing but getting in contact with a legit broker and account manager is the problem everyone's facing instead the end up losing their hard earned money investing on wrong platforms

    • @WilliamReynolds887
      @WilliamReynolds887 2 ปีที่แล้ว

      I wanted to invest more on Digital currency (BITCOIN ) but the fluctuations in BITCOIN. Value discouraged me into dumping.

    • @جوالبني
      @جوالبني 2 ปีที่แล้ว

      There are platform where you can invest and they trade your money. Then pay you profit either weekly or monthly. That's investing.

    • @Maricel_oronan
      @Maricel_oronan 2 ปีที่แล้ว

      @@WilliamReynolds887 That's why you need the help of a professional who trade and understand the market more to earn good income. These professionals understand the markets like it's there own farm and makes maximum profits for

  • @jtjr26
    @jtjr26 2 ปีที่แล้ว +13

    Do I think the women's game will ever equal the men in popularity? No. But there is certainly a market for the women's game. Present people with a compelling product and they will watch. I do think the people from Lewes FC are justified in their concerns of being swept aside if the teams attached to larger men's clubs price them out of the market. They need to avoid trying to grow too far too fast and become unsustainable.

  • @nintendokings
    @nintendokings 2 ปีที่แล้ว +48

    Cool story FT. But football is entertainment. I’ve also read a credible article that women get overpaid compared to men relative to viewership & sponsorships

    • @nzinternet1
      @nzinternet1 2 ปีที่แล้ว +2

      Great - please share this article.

    • @hahawas
      @hahawas 2 ปีที่แล้ว +4

      It's called investment

    • @kenlandon6130
      @kenlandon6130 2 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      Sure. Because the male-dominated media/sporting associations used to not give them media coverage because of sexism in the past, and then people didn't know much about female sports so when they were broadcasted after society changed its views on women still they had less viewership and sponsorship.
      Kinda like with systemic racism.

    • @nintendokings
      @nintendokings 2 ปีที่แล้ว +8

      ​@@kenlandon6130 The truth is people want to see the best of the best competing when watching sports. Local boys teams can beat national women's teams in football. It's not about views on women, I'd love to see a women KO Tyson Fury or outplay Messi...but that ain't happening.
      Men also watch more sports.
      Sorry but you are delusional if you think sexism and lack of media coverage is the key reason for a lesser interest in women's sports. There are pretty obvious biological correlations. But I guess the modern left prioritises feelings and -isms over facts and biology...

    • @emem2863
      @emem2863 2 ปีที่แล้ว

      It depends on where it is. There is a definite audience for women's soccer/football, at least in the U.S. Even with few local teams and broadcast games, the sport has loyal fans, especially the USWNT. More teams and access to view the games would likely increase revenue, as similar to female tennis, soccer/football is a sport that women and some men like to see women play.

  • @danielwebb8402
    @danielwebb8402 2 ปีที่แล้ว +33

    The men's teams subsidise them. Out of charity / PR purposes.
    The TV companies deliberately over paid. Out of charity.
    Median top division salary still less than median Joe bloggs salary in the country.
    Chelsea women tickets are £9. My local conference south is £15. That sounds about right relative quality wise / actual business free market value.

    • @wolfiestreet6899
      @wolfiestreet6899 2 ปีที่แล้ว +16

      Agreed, this is about forcing an ideology, not facilitating a market.

    • @outsideleft8976
      @outsideleft8976 2 ปีที่แล้ว

      @@wolfiestreet6899 the free market is also an ideology. A corrupt and broken one.

    • @wolfiestreet6899
      @wolfiestreet6899 2 ปีที่แล้ว +7

      @@outsideleft8976 This is the accusation of a zombie leftist fanatic.
      The free market is an economic framework, not an ideology. When you grow up, you'll realise corruption is inherent where ever humans are involved, no matter their political and economic leanings.
      The free market has failed? Humanity has never had it so good.
      Try avoiding parroting clichés and actually read some books.

    • @outsideleft8976
      @outsideleft8976 2 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      @@wolfiestreet6899 I mean I’m 50, so done with growing up. Capitalism is absolutely an ideology. A crooked one. Not everything is about markets. Market economics is inherently unjust and unfair. As is the treatment of women’s football.

    • @wolfiestreet6899
      @wolfiestreet6899 2 ปีที่แล้ว +3

      @@outsideleft8976 Everyone grows older. Not everyone grows up.
      There is no point discussing such issues with ideological fanatics. You have no intention of considering others.

  • @CityNatureProject
    @CityNatureProject 2 ปีที่แล้ว +21

    The number of spectators in the stands indicates the popularity of this activity. Spectators cannot be deceived and cannot be forced to go and look at it against their will.

    • @CC-jw8cj
      @CC-jw8cj 2 ปีที่แล้ว +4

      Some of these teams and leagues haven't been around for over a hundred years like the men's teams/leagues have been. Do you think men's football became popular in a year's time? Do you have proof of that?

    • @wolfiestreet6899
      @wolfiestreet6899 2 ปีที่แล้ว +5

      @@CC-jw8cj Do you have proof it didn't?

  • @nintendokings
    @nintendokings 2 ปีที่แล้ว +27

    Can you do a similar video on why male runway models or pornstars don’t earn as much as female counterparts, or does that not fit the agenda?

    • @CC-jw8cj
      @CC-jw8cj 2 ปีที่แล้ว

      Original opinion but just an opinion, not a fact. Most female models and pornstars don't get paid that much. Even the most popular ones. For female models, it depends on how many runway shows they book. In porn even the most popular female pornstars are financially exploited. Such as Mia Khalifa or Lana Rhoades. They don't get paid anything.

    • @Bultish
      @Bultish 2 ปีที่แล้ว +2

      @@CC-jw8cj do you watch womens games? Bring all your sisters, money talks

    • @CC-jw8cj
      @CC-jw8cj 2 ปีที่แล้ว

      @@Bultish I don't actually. I just have an opinion about something I know nothing about. Kinda like you

    • @Bultish
      @Bultish 2 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      @@CC-jw8cj haha well ok then, have a nice day =)

  • @jimmyjimmy5574
    @jimmyjimmy5574 2 ปีที่แล้ว +7

    the biggest problem with women's sport are women. if women watched women's sport at the same rate as men watch men's sport, you would have same level of audience and comparatively similar level of revenue.

  • @Hani_raihan
    @Hani_raihan ปีที่แล้ว +4

    I think the main reason its not becoming popular or atleast to some extent is no one knows where to watch or stream online. And a little info about the matches league stats and all

  • @joebirdwelljr629
    @joebirdwelljr629 2 ปีที่แล้ว +6

    I am a male and love football. I am not ashamed to say I like the women's game better. I find the female footballers to be more personable and family friendly compared to the men's game. It is my wish and hope that women's football continues to become bigger and better. I am American also and find the WSL to be the. Beat women's league around. Go Man United women and the Lionesses...

  • @leedza
    @leedza 2 ปีที่แล้ว +3

    The women's game needs to evolve and the initial target commercially would have to be league 2 or league 1 equivalent.. that's certainly achievable within the decade. At the moment the attendances apart from Arsenal, Tottenham and Chelsea are still building up. The popularity of the game is a function of time and for a new league they haven't done bad.

  • @krime2001
    @krime2001 2 ปีที่แล้ว +9

    All sports could learn a lot from Mixed Martial Arts (MMA) and the UFC. Women's and men's fights take place during the same event. Sometimes the headline fight of the night is a women's fight. They train at the same gyms with the same trainers and training partners. Though women's MMA started years after men's, the gap in skill is closing.

    • @wolfiestreet6899
      @wolfiestreet6899 2 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      MMA is rubbish. The female fighters an atrocity. Sport for betas to watch and pretend they are hard.

    • @eddiealexander3736
      @eddiealexander3736 10 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

      And the women in that sport take more abuse than in any other😂

  • @elduderino7767
    @elduderino7767 2 ปีที่แล้ว +15

    is this some next level satire that is going way above my head ?
    i mean it's the "Financial Times" right? they still have a clue - don't they?

  • @iamarugbyfansa1031
    @iamarugbyfansa1031 2 ปีที่แล้ว +18

    Women need to watch their game then. Thats why mens game is big because people actually watch it

    • @CC-jw8cj
      @CC-jw8cj 2 ปีที่แล้ว +2

      You can't ignore the FA's 50 year ban on women's football. The Premier League has been around for 30 years and has only become what it is because of global TV deals. Most professional women's leagues have not been around for more than 10 years In Spain, where the current best women's league team is, the league wasn't professional until 2 years ago. You can't ignore all these factors by saying women don't watch women's sports when there are so many other factors holding it back from growing.

    • @wolfiestreet6899
      @wolfiestreet6899 2 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      @@CC-jw8cj Rubbish. Mens football is successful because it is both popular and profitable. Womens football is neither.
      Capitalism wins again.

    • @CC-jw8cj
      @CC-jw8cj 2 ปีที่แล้ว

      @@wolfiestreet6899 Aaah good old capitalism one of the greatest enforcers of exclusion and inequality. Profit and popularity is all that matters. Slavery was popular and profitable too once upon a time.

    • @wolfiestreet6899
      @wolfiestreet6899 2 ปีที่แล้ว +2

      @@CC-jw8cj Slavery and capitalism are not comparable. Pointless insertion.
      It is because profit and popularity is all that matters that makes it devoid of exclusion and inequality. Pure ideological spiteful sophistry.

    • @CC-jw8cj
      @CC-jw8cj 2 ปีที่แล้ว

      @@wolfiestreet6899 ok antiwoke free market free thinking alpha male, thanks for enlightening me on how the world actually works. i am such an idiot brainwashed by ideology. thank you very much 🥰

  • @yumyum366
    @yumyum366 2 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    The talk about a community vibe reminded me of some video game communities I've been in. I hope all the best to them.

  • @saskystewart5633
    @saskystewart5633 2 ปีที่แล้ว +6

    I regret reading the comments.

    • @niraj7616
      @niraj7616 2 ปีที่แล้ว

      OK boomer 🤡

  • @atty.fernandog.madarcos8724
    @atty.fernandog.madarcos8724 2 ปีที่แล้ว +8

    The Women's Game is gonna grow big. It's inevitable. It's diversification that will enable the big clubs and eventually the smaller clubs to grow further in this new era. It was perfectly summed up in the clip, "Women's football is akin to a startup." Of course as in every successful startup, the product needs to be really good. The product seems to be developing well each year especially in clubs who invest in coaching/player development as well as infrastructure (training ground, purpose-built playing grounds i.e.)

    • @wolfiestreet6899
      @wolfiestreet6899 2 ปีที่แล้ว +6

      Fslse. Nothing inevitable about it. Pure ideological sophistry.

    • @atty.fernandog.madarcos8724
      @atty.fernandog.madarcos8724 2 ปีที่แล้ว +4

      @@wolfiestreet6899
      Ok troll lol

    • @wolfiestreet6899
      @wolfiestreet6899 2 ปีที่แล้ว +5

      @@atty.fernandog.madarcos8724 Right. So in order for your weak self esteem to cope with someone disagreeing with you, you call them a troll.
      Check yourself.

    • @paulusthewoodgnome
      @paulusthewoodgnome 2 ปีที่แล้ว +5

      A relief to read a normal post from a normal bloke in a comments section full of incels. The women's game in England has been banned THREE times by men in 1902, 1921 and 1946. The FA owes a huge moral and financial debt to women's football and it's about time it started paying it off.

    • @wolfiestreet6899
      @wolfiestreet6899 2 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      @@paulusthewoodgnome It doesn't owe a penny. Quit being a s1 mp.

  • @What..a..shambles
    @What..a..shambles 2 ปีที่แล้ว +15

    They're crap to watch playing

  • @Bultish
    @Bultish 2 ปีที่แล้ว +6

    I'm a male, I watch Formula 1, I don't watch Formula 2...

  • @iamarugbyfansa1031
    @iamarugbyfansa1031 2 ปีที่แล้ว +10

    Women always want the cake but don't want to do the hard graft of growing the game through fans. Always want easy things from the men.

    • @Bultish
      @Bultish 2 ปีที่แล้ว

      replace women with far left

    • @ShreyansNilvarna
      @ShreyansNilvarna 2 ปีที่แล้ว

      Please rugby fan SA, enlighten us how are they to do that when half the comments are mocking them for even playing football? There was also the 50 year ban. There is a constant mockery of them even getting on the pitch. Seems kind of unfair to then ask them to "get fans".

    • @niraj7616
      @niraj7616 2 ปีที่แล้ว +7

      @@ShreyansNilvarna they won't sleep with you stop simping in the comments 🤡

  • @itdenelll
    @itdenelll 2 ปีที่แล้ว +4

    2:55 thanks for including that Weir goal :) .

  • @cherry-vz5kx
    @cherry-vz5kx 2 ปีที่แล้ว +11

    Women`s premier league football averages less than 3,000 per game.The ladies cannot expect the same renumeration as men or even close to it.The women`s game is never going to draw 50,000 on a weekly bases or generate huge sponsorship.

    • @ShreyansNilvarna
      @ShreyansNilvarna 2 ปีที่แล้ว +2

      Well, how about the fact that the women's teams play at smaller grounds 1.5 hours from the men's stadiums? Whenever Arsenal women have played at Emirates, the attendance has been 30,000+. The FA cup final at Wembley was 45,000 / 48,000 available seats. So... there is an underlying problem.

  • @danielclee1
    @danielclee1 2 ปีที่แล้ว +21

    No one cares about women's football. FT gone woke.

  • @gloireman
    @gloireman 2 ปีที่แล้ว +4

    11:30 This is not what 99.9% of football fans want

    • @mancpartizan
      @mancpartizan 2 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      that is feckin hillarious

  • @flicksbyhans
    @flicksbyhans 2 หลายเดือนก่อน

    The UK screwed the Women's game for themselves. The Carney review shot the game in the foot by re-emphasising that it has to remain the same model. It had the opportunity to develop it in its own right and not nest it within the men's game (recent offer refused to spinoff but FA refused). Look at what has happened to Reading FC's team in the WSL after being closely tied to the men's same club. II consider it condescending on the women's game to see them as a pet/philanthropic project of the clubs who earn the money through the men's game. I agree with Charlie Methven's (CEO of Charlton Athletic) thesis on this that he went into on the 'Business of Sport' podcast. The women's game should follow the USA Women's football model for competition. Start their own. It is a shame that Barclay refused to 'spin off' the women's league after it refused an independent offer to purchase the league. A token injection on 45m is peanuts compared to what it is really worth in the long run.

  • @AmandaMouraPietrzak
    @AmandaMouraPietrzak 2 ปีที่แล้ว +3

    That is such a nice and much important story! Thank you FT for bringing this great content. As a football player myself, I love to see a respectful gathering of data !

  • @jimmyjimmy5574
    @jimmyjimmy5574 2 ปีที่แล้ว +5

    I love the ghostbuster example 😂 because that is exactly the case with women's football. it's just a shittier version of something that is actually good

  • @parallaxview2143
    @parallaxview2143 ปีที่แล้ว

    The women's game needs more big name sponsorship. Big pharma's desperate for more exposure. You know Tampax? Well, I work in PR and I'd only be too happy to fly over to Johnson and Johnson and pull a few strings.

  • @Hibrnaldo
    @Hibrnaldo 2 ปีที่แล้ว +5

    Supply and demand anyone?

  • @eligerus2622
    @eligerus2622 10 หลายเดือนก่อน

    In the beginning they say that all women sports is fragile. Thats not true. Look at Tennis or even Biathlon (and some other wintersports) to most extend are not only funded equally to men's competition but female pros can make a living out if it in the same way men can.

  • @alikaostermiller
    @alikaostermiller 2 ปีที่แล้ว +8

    I'd rather watch D2 college mens. The women's game is getting better but its still a inferior product and less competitive game. You would have to pay me to watch 90 minutes of subpar passing and shrieking over mediocre plays.

  • @gatewaypartners8018
    @gatewaypartners8018 2 ปีที่แล้ว +6

    If FT is presenting the business case, we can be assured their isn't any case. Women's football will grow organically and in the meanwhile they should get all sorts of subsidies as possible until they become financially stable.

    • @wolfiestreet6899
      @wolfiestreet6899 2 ปีที่แล้ว +5

      If it's going to grow organically then there is no need for artificial stimulus. You contradict yourself.

    • @gatewaypartners8018
      @gatewaypartners8018 2 ปีที่แล้ว +2

      @@wolfiestreet6899 No contradiction for a nuanced mind. Subsidies can't get more people to become 'fans' of this sport, it can however provide support for it to operate long enough to gather those 'fans' until it becomes self sufficient.

    • @wolfiestreet6899
      @wolfiestreet6899 2 ปีที่แล้ว +2

      @@gatewaypartners8018 You've managed to deny your contradiction with another contradiction! Superb! In your case 'nuanced' is a mask for 'irrational'.
      If the business case was there then sponsors and investors would be tripping over themselves. Subsidies are for market failures.

    • @gatewaypartners8018
      @gatewaypartners8018 2 ปีที่แล้ว

      @@wolfiestreet6899 lol you finally get it :)

    • @wolfiestreet6899
      @wolfiestreet6899 2 ปีที่แล้ว +2

      @@gatewaypartners8018 Sure, but do you?

  • @merseydave1
    @merseydave1 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    First and foremost, I say Female Football ... From my perspective (in Liverpool England) the game needs to be embraced - promoted properly via the male clubs, as that is where mainstream football supporters are!. Once that stance is concentrated on ... Female Football will grow and prosper!

  • @Agtsmirnoff
    @Agtsmirnoff 2 ปีที่แล้ว +9

    Nobody cares about women’s football except as a sideshow to the men’s game. It’s an inferior product in almost every regard. In fact I’d submit, like volleyball, half the viewers only tune in to see attractive teen and 20 something girls in shorts running around.

  • @alikaostermiller
    @alikaostermiller 2 ปีที่แล้ว +11

    If you think you deserve as much as the men then play the men.

    • @nzinternet1
      @nzinternet1 2 ปีที่แล้ว +2

      Really? Sigh

    • @Bultish
      @Bultish 2 ปีที่แล้ว +4

      @@nzinternet1 actually if women watched football there would be no issue, but you cant force me to watch your game, i would be bored out of my mind..

    • @nzinternet1
      @nzinternet1 2 ปีที่แล้ว +2

      @@Bultish no one is asking or forcing you to watch.

  • @_orodrigofernandes
    @_orodrigofernandes ปีที่แล้ว +1

    It will be fun to watch a change of focus from the male centered football status quo, to something which bring in women's voices into the many wholes the sport has: broadcasters, commentators, medical, coaches, referees, attendance, fans, ownership... it can be a fun revolution to watch and maybe to be part of.

  • @moody4624
    @moody4624 2 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    Equal prize money??? Why? That claim is simply delusional and wishful thinking without any reasonable argument behind it.

  • @furrycheetah
    @furrycheetah ปีที่แล้ว

    I think FC Women Barcelona can only save their club from bankruptcy from now on.

  • @innocentgoitseone3715
    @innocentgoitseone3715 2 ปีที่แล้ว +6

    As a guy. I can say one thing, and is that the women's football will be big in the future. If the basics are provided to the women's football

    • @Roger-yu9ql
      @Roger-yu9ql 2 ปีที่แล้ว +9

      What basics are not provided? They are subsidised beyond belief when you realise the best women's national team would get destroyed by a bunch of amateur boys

    • @wolfiestreet6899
      @wolfiestreet6899 2 ปีที่แล้ว +3

      Rubbish. Pure ideological fanaticism sophistry.

    • @justonetime6179
      @justonetime6179 2 ปีที่แล้ว +4

      Most women don’t enjoy watching these types of sports, so women’s football would need to entertain men… but unfortunately it doesn’t.

    • @krime2001
      @krime2001 2 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      @@Roger-yu9ql it goes deeper than providing the basics. It would really take the whole of society to change in a way where a 3 year old girl who kicks a ball gets the exact same type of encouragement that a 3 year old boy gets. And I don't mean from the parents, I mean from literally every other facet of society. Who knows if the women playing professionally now are even the best around, or just the ones who had support in their family.

    • @wolfiestreet6899
      @wolfiestreet6899 2 ปีที่แล้ว +2

      @@krime2001 Oh I see, it's everybody else's fault.....
      Figures.

  • @lrye-xyz
    @lrye-xyz 2 ปีที่แล้ว +3

    I’d rather watch Sunday league than this rubbish. If you are good enough, people will watch. That the men’s game should support young male footballers - not the women’s game!

  • @_orodrigofernandes
    @_orodrigofernandes ปีที่แล้ว

    It's a bit funny the guy comparing anything on female football to the levels of money on the Premier League. The PL is out of reach for any sports league in the world! Where else you have Oil conglomerates and all sorts of sport washing schemes pumping loads of money into the game?
    Abu Dhabi backing Man City, Dubai sponsoring Arsenal, the Saudis in Newcastle, Abramovich in Chelsea... What other sports' league in the world have this many deep pockets backing them?
    Furthermore, the hands who sign the checks are male hands. The owners of the money are men, it's just a fact.
    So to the women's game to become anywhere close to the men's one, it will take A LOT of changing. But let's see what happens. The world is always changing.

  • @DocHOLLYDAYDaive
    @DocHOLLYDAYDaive 11 หลายเดือนก่อน

    Who is the woman that is making boots specifically for women????

  • @finnrowden3341
    @finnrowden3341 2 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    This is amazing!!!

  • @AmanKumar-gq2qy
    @AmanKumar-gq2qy 2 ปีที่แล้ว

    Men watch men sports as well women sports, women don't watch women sports That's the problem. By saying men are problem you are taking your customers away from you.

  • @valerieobrien5521
    @valerieobrien5521 2 ปีที่แล้ว

    Football is UNSUITABLE and UNSEEMLY for women to take part in
    as a normal woman I am disgusted ! I had a career as a pianist , so I am not some stay at home, but I personally believe these so called " Lionesses " should have real , live lionesses released onto the field and we would see who the REAL lionesses are.

  • @zelenskysgreenshirt-ir2xp
    @zelenskysgreenshirt-ir2xp ปีที่แล้ว

    maybe if they werent terrible at the game people would watch, nobody wants to see the keeper score more own goals than the opposing team, its pathetic
    the mens teams are made up of the best of the best of every nation on the planet, competing against millions of other men, i suspect getting on the womens team is as simple as showing up to the matches for any woman willing to play LOL, not even comparable skill levels.

  • @JamesMullarneyIsAFraud
    @JamesMullarneyIsAFraud 2 ปีที่แล้ว +8

    Lolz 😂

  • @stellaliu7690
    @stellaliu7690 2 ปีที่แล้ว

    I mean look at the recent attendances and sold out stadiums all around europe. You see fans that are disappointed with their mens teams and switching to the womens (Barca, PSG, Arsenal) its just evidence that there is a market

  • @sttony7647
    @sttony7647 2 ปีที่แล้ว

    They are a loss-leader. We have to put up with them or they moan….
    Blokes are not interested in women’s football.
    Name the England 1966 squad…..
    Now, name the kittens who won the Euros….
    Yeah - see what I mean.

  • @Positiveperson-l5f
    @Positiveperson-l5f 2 ปีที่แล้ว

    School football team >>>>>women's football team

  • @georgethottanj
    @georgethottanj 2 ปีที่แล้ว +6

    Just a substandard product.

  • @georgethottanj
    @georgethottanj 2 ปีที่แล้ว +7

    Nobody watches women's football.
    No one cares.

    • @nzinternet1
      @nzinternet1 2 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      lol - Clearly you are threatened

    • @wolfiestreet6899
      @wolfiestreet6899 2 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      @@nzinternet1 You wish.

    • @Bultish
      @Bultish 2 ปีที่แล้ว

      @@nzinternet1 hahaahaa

    • @Bultish
      @Bultish 2 ปีที่แล้ว

      @@nzinternet1 threatened that someday there may be more entertainment? What about women actually getting better and providing entertainment is threatening?

  • @edgarcardenas837
    @edgarcardenas837 2 ปีที่แล้ว +2

    $#$ Cruz Azul blue pen owner boss