I agree - Bruckner's Fifth I also consider his best (but not many Brucknerians think that way). It's a score with many miracles, yet with no revisions, and the most complex and best Finale, with the double fugue and great chorale, and with one of the finest codas in all symphonic music.
I'm so happy that you mentioned Arnold as a finale with cymbals and tam-tam-strokes! In my opinion, Arnold is the post-war-Mahler in depicting a world in his symphonies, and it is not his guilt that this world has become faster, less philosophical perhaps, with more distraction and shopping malls. This fifth is a triumph of symphonic statement, and the slow movement is unforgettable. It is one of my favorite 20th-century symphonies. And in this case, I have not much to add fulheartedly. One work, which is very dear to me is the Fifth Symphony by Valentin Silvestrov, a great gesture of farewell, which develops a Mahlerian world of sound with glimpses on Scriabin out of a 12-note-chord in the beginning. Then there is the Fifth by Rued Langgaard. Langgaard convinces me not very often, here he does, because he manages to create in this one-movement-work an arch from start to the end, and in the 2nd halve, there are moments of so wonderfully whipped cream that even Strauss seems dry in comparison to that chocolade cake. With great interest and growing affinity, I listened to the Fifth by Karl Weigl, which is another Franz Schmidt insofar as he is rooted in the austrian symphonic tradition, more modern than Schmidt, more with hints of Schönberg and Mahler, and there are long stretches in this symphony, which are just gorgeous. And now one of the odds, a discovery from a trip to Amsterdam: Matthijs Vermeulen's Fifth. What a strange piece this is! The style is nearly impossible to describe. Mostly atonal, but not really ugly in sound, it has to do with Mahler, Berg and the Schoenberg of the "Five Orchestral Pieces", but is melodically more flowing, yes, sometimes it seems that all the instruments sing, each one his own melody, but the impression is organic, not chaotic. There are moments, which remind me on Varese's "Ameriques", but Vermeulen has his own language, and he was, I must confess, one of my long-time-ago-discoveries of unknown composers, to which I return regularly even now, especially to this Fifth Symphony.
Cannot argue with your list. A couple off my head I would add are Raff and Glazunov. Glad you included lloyd. Definitely underrated. Thinking a bit harder, I love The Schubert with it's charming 1st movement. A theme you cannot get out of your head and Vegh's recording is so delicious.
I agree, Schubert deserves a special mention. His 5th is full of beautiful tunes, but the first mov is simply irresistible. It’s so irresistible, that I wasn’t so surprised when I saw Glenn Gould (the video is GG Off The Record), playing and singing the first mov in complete delight.
Delighted to hear you praising Lloyd's Fifth. I hold it similar esteem, along with the Fourth and my own personal favourite, the Eleventh which has that spine-rtingling finale - "The light at the end of the tunnel we all hope to see" - according to the composer himself. I know it is coming yet it never fails to create that eye-moistening physical moment in me.
I have a fondness for the Martinu Fifth. It begins timidly, but gradually intensifies into a splashy and powerful ending, almost like Sibelius' Fifth. The penultimate theme in the finale must be the happiest tune in the universe.
Bruckner 5 is my favorite Bruckner symphony, it really requires one to sit in for the whole symphony and see how everything rejoices in the last choral.
Yes, I would definitely add Bax, a large-scale and gutsy and emotionally engaging soundscape that gloriously revels in Bax's self-proclaimed "brazen romanticism." One of the most ravishingly beautiful orchestra sounds that I know comes from the harps and violins and tambourine at the beginning of the second movement.
As others have said, I cast a vote for Schubert's 5th for its inspired infectious tunes with Schubertian turns of harmony (among his first six, only the 2nd and 5th make my list) And one of my fantasy gala concerts--which I have done at home-- is Raff's 5th 'Leonore' (not only for that fantastic March mvt) followed by Dvorak's Spectre's Bride, both based on the same story.
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So glad you included Lloyd's among the Great Fifths. What an amazing orchestration, what beautiful big tunes! I think the Fourth is on the same level. For many years I've enjoyed Lloyd's symphonies, but with a certain feeling of guilt, because I'd read so many negative evaluations of his music as derivative, old-fashioned, second-hand Tchaikovsky etc. Thank you for dispelling that feeling!
I was fortunate to find Lloyd's music late in life - and had the privilege of meeting him socially. His contritbution to music - but espcially British music - is profound. His "Symphonic Mass" is one of The Prom's most inexplicably ignored masterpeices to the ongoing shame of that famous music festival.
I was just listening to Lloyd’s Fifth the other day and loved it even more than I had before! Sure, Lloyd’s style is “conservative”, but it’s totally personal and there’s enough dissonance “spice” in certain passages that assure us that it is indeed a work of the mid-20th century. Is there a more beautiful and memorable opening theme in the entire symphonic repertoire? It takes my breath away every time I hear it. I love how perfectly contrasted each of the movements are - the 1st is beautifully pastoral, the 2nd sober and austere, the 3rd playful and balletic, the 4th tragic and passionate, and the 5th exciting and celebratory. If that ending doesn’t get an audience immediately to their feet, I don’t know what will! One of the many crowning jewels of Lloyd’s wonderful output.
I've been a classical music fan for decades, but I started getting very heavily into classical a couple of years ago. I came into this period in my life with Beethoven's 5th bring my favorite symphony, and years and thousands of hours of listening to other things later it remains my favorite symphony.
I love Arnold's 5th and 6th symphonies! It came as no shock to me that you included the 5th in your list. It's such an enjoyable and original work. Talking about fun, joy, humour and wit, that one's got all those things and so much more. Its 3rd movement ("con fuoco") in particular is so much fun. Great list otherwise. I'll have to give Lloyd's a shot or two, that one's totally unfamiliar to me.Why 1 or 2 shots? Because you don't always get it on the 1st listen. A case in point: Grofé's "Grand Canyon Suite" only opened up to me on its 2nd listen. That was last night, listening to Abravanel and Utah's version of the piece (the version on the "American Masterpieces" disc you recently recommended). Wowie zowie, that one's become a favourite orchestral work of mine now. Thank you 1,500 times!
I would definitely have included Glazunov's 5th. I think an argument could have been made in the Symphony no. 1 video for Glazunov's 1st as it fit the criterion of a composer being fully himself with his first symphony -- true for Glazunov even though he was a teenager when he wrote this really delightful symphony. And of course, I would certainly have had Mendelssohn's Reformation Symphony on this list -- such a beautiful, atmospheric work! I've never understood the supercilious scorn some have for this great symphony.
Yay, great list. I would say, the Bruckner, vaughan williams and Dvorak are my favorite 5ths. You summed up the Bruckner so well, it and his 9th where he really found his destination in Bruckner land. The Dvorak is tuneful, inventive and full of organic development. The vaughan williams is so beautiful its almost hurts. I keep awaiting a Rubbra, but i must be in a small minority . Paul
Thanks for talking about the cut in the last movement of Tchaikovsky 5. My first recording of this (probably purchased at my local A&P grocery) was with Odd Gruner Hegge with the Oslo Philharmonic on RCA Camden lp. It took the cut. I about wore out the recording and so imprinted the cut on my brain; now, 60 years later, every performance I hear of T's 5th, we get to where the cut would be, my brain gets ready for the cut, and it NEVER HAPPENS in present day performances.
Number 17 should be Glazunov - I think it's his greatest. The expansive first movement is epic. The scherzo's so compact and bright.The finale can be heavy handed if taken too fast. Number 18 should be Myaskovsky's, a composer not talked about much. He has some beautiful melodies. His fifth is very successful. I also love his 25th and 27th. Atterberg's 5th is an honorable mention.
That's a very good list. I think that Schubert's 5th is one of the few actual great 5th symphonies that was left out. I simply can't help being gaga over Schubert and to me this is his symphonic masterpiece along with nos. 8 and 9. The wonderful opening of the symphony reminds me of a bud opening into flower and everything in Schubert's 5th is so springlike, so effortlessly flowing and refreshing, from first bar to last. Other Romantic 5ths outside the list (like Mendelssohn and Glazunov) are in my opinion good rather than actual great 5ths (near great at best). However in more modern repertoire there are some 5ths that in my book could qualify as great: Silvestrov's and Rautavaara's. Both of the symphonies are filled with this mysterious, majestic, otherworldly atmosphere. Listening to those works is like being on a voyage in outer space or something. You don't think about the destination (you could hardly even know what to expect). You just enjoy the journey and marvel at all the mesmerizing things that you come across.
I think Karl Weigl's 5th deserves a shout out. It is an interesting work which starts with the symphony tuning up, as if they are practicing prior to the symphony. Unlike Edgar Varese's composition, Tuning Up, there are no quotations or attempts at humor, just a straightforward orchestra tuning up. After the introduction, if you like music from the Austrian/German tradition (with echoes of Mahler), you will love this symphony. More people need to hear this work!
I’m surprised you didn’t mention how Arnold’s 5th has one of the most shocking, devastating endings in the symphonic repertoire, with the glorious reprise of the “big tune” from the second movement being cut short by a shattering E minor chord, after which the symphony closes in the darkest depths of the abyss with fatal strokes on the tubular bells. It completely devastated me the first time I heard it, and still does to this day.
Your point about so many composers hitting their stride somewhere around Symphony 5 is well taken. Quite a few symphonic cycles seem to speak of a kind of apprenticeship for the first two to four works, a peak or series of them from 4/5 to 7/8, then a slight tailing-off. Less common is a change of gears at the end. Holmboe's last three, Rubbra's last two, VW's last three, Arnold's 9th, Shostakovich's last three (in both symphonic and quartet cycles), not to mention Verdi's final opera, strike me as a kind of Pythonesque "and now for something completely (or rather) different".
I've always thought that the Tchaikovsky Fifth Symphony finale worked splendidly--on the emotional level it's stunning how the coda turns the 1st movement's cry for help into victory over itself.
I would have liked to have seen the Honegger (the Baudo Czech Phil recording is stunnnig) and I was going to suggest the Bax as well but you mentioned it at the very end. I loved most of your choices.
It took me quite awhile to appreciate Bruckner's 5th...At first, I never understood the abrupt stops and starts and the variance of style. My first impressions were that it was a narratively incoherent symphony. I really like it now, but it helps for me to understand it in terms of being analogous to Mussorgsky's Pictures of an Exhibition. It just occurred to me that these compositions were both composed around the same time. In Bruckner's 5th, I feel like I am wondering around an art-museum viewing various symphonic sculptures and paintings while on psychedelics...The finale is when the psychedelic experience starts peaking at a particular symphonic artwork in the classical music museum. When I think of it that way, it becomes my favorite 5th Symphony by anyone...so progressive for its time!
Number 5 seems to be a magical number in symphionosity. So many good 5ths ! Love the Nielsen 5. Perhaps I would have added Mendelssohn's 5th the so called Reformation symphony. It doesn't get the same attention as his Scottish and Italian but it deserves to be heard and enjoyed.
Great choices. I've got a soft spot for Mendelssohn's Fifth, which I find a moving and wonderful piece. It truly is quite remarkable how many composers seem to have stirred themselves to raise their own game with their fifth symphonies. Martinu's Fifth too. I've become completely smitten with his sound-world over the last five years or so. His string quartets are equally as interesting.
Another great 5th, is by C.E.F. Weyse. He wrotre seven symphonies. Imho, his 2nd, 5th and 6th are his best. However, the 5th is the apex of his symphonic output. Classical in structure, lyrical and full of turns oif phrase it is a must hear.
Huzzah! You picked Tubin! Please consider his Sixth, too. And you picked Arnold! And also his Sixth! Thanks also for your continued championing of Lloyd. I'd love to see a little chat about a The Vigil of Venus. The other Fifths I'd toss in are Bax & Atterberg.
I’m so happy that Holmboe’s Fifth is on the list! It’s a truly remarkable symphony. (The Second is another masterpiece, BTW, but I concede that the Fifth is in a wholly different level.)
Same here! Lloyd was undoubtedly one of the greatest tunesmiths of the 20th century along with Rachmaninoff, Prokofiev, Poulenc, Atterberg, Braga Santos, and Arnold.
So brave of you to include Arnold. It could be the catchiest of all the 5ths, perhaps that's why the rest of the critical fraternity snobbishly dismiss him. And great to see Bruckner's 5th right up there just behind Beethoven's. TH-cam videos are appearing listing the greatest or most epic symphonic endings. Your list would be interesting.
I agree - it’s possibly Weinberg’s greatest work. It’s haunting and powerful, and luminously orchestrated (great celesta part)! He was a rather uneven composer (at his worst, he could be quite grey and depressing), but when he was “on”, he was really “on”. My other favorites of his are his Cello Concerto, 3rd Symphony, and Piano Quintet.
I love Mahler 5, such a great piece especially the Scherzo with its rhythms and colorful orchestration. I always skip the Adagietto and never understood its popularity, well, it's pretty as you said. And I also enjoy a lot the Finale which is really positive and lots of fun. Some say Mahler can't write happy music but come on... Honeck did a great Mahler 5 with Pittsburg.
Glazunov at 17 and Bax at 18. Glazunov has some really nice formal development and some really good tunes. Bax has this almost otherworldly soundscape, and any Bax work is laudable for its vivid orchestration. Maybe Bax will be in the 6s?
The only other Symphony No. 5 I would consider "great" that I would add would be Alexander Scriabin's "Prometheus-Poem of Fire". I admit I like "Poem of Ecstasy" a bit more, but this one is still amazing. Some other Symphonies No. 5 that I enjoy and I feel are worth hearing: Valentin Silvestrov (my favorite of his symphonies. A long single movement of uneasy calm. Beautiful) Alexander Lokshin - Shakespeare's Sonnets (An intriguing symphonist. Shostakovich thought he was a genius, fwiw. I feel this to be his best, or at least most approachable) Nikolai Myaskovsky (definitely my favorite of his "single digit" symphonies, and probably top 3 overall of his) Allan Pettersson (what I think to be the first of the "typical Pettersson" symphonies) Miloslav Kabelac - Drammatica (one of my favorites of his) Louis Spohr (what I think is his greatest symphony, which, admittedly, ain't saying much. But this one is worth hearing)
The work I would put forward as worthy of our consideration is Rautavaara’s apocalyptic 5th. When I listen to this, I hear the music evoke what it was like to be human in the 20th century. In that regard, I think the Rautavaara 5th is as seminal as the Shostakovich and Vaughn Williams 4th symphonies, and the Nielsen 5th. Perhaps, it goes even further. It sounds nothing like Bruckner, of course. Yet I perceive a spiritual dimension to this symphony as epic as his. I could spell it out in a very short sentence. But this would deprive people of an enlightenment that is only achieved by deciphering the message for themselves. Listen…if you dare.
When you mentioned Sibelius 5 requiring a great control of tempo it reminded me of that video of Bernstein smugly but masterfully showing a young conductor in rehearsal how to handle the rallentando at the end of the first movement, chatting away while in total control. Not an easy symphony to do well indeed!
Would you consider doing a talk on the music of Stanford and Parry? These two giants in British romantic music pre-Elgar and pre-RVW deserve more attention than they receive today. They are mostly remembered for their choral music, but A. Peter Brown in his Symphonic Repertoire series asserts that they are also great symphonists. I am not sure that I concur, but I do think both composers wrote outstanding fifth symphonies. What are your thoughts on this somewhat controversial and largely ignored topic?
They both wrote some good music, but aren't important or especially distinctive. I did discuss the Stanford Irish Rhapsodies in my Chandos "10 Best" video. I think his program music is better than the symphonies, generally. The topic has not been ignored--the music continues to be, and that says something!
At Burger King you should place your order as "two Whoppers Junior," according to the grammar police. I really like Rodzinski's Tchaikovsky Fifth with the Royal Philharmonic, which has the cuts especially in the last movement. Mahler's Fifth is my favorite of his symphonies. Bernstein was buried with a copy of the score.
SO agree with you about the Bruckner 5! Interesting that Dvorak 5 influenced Brahms 3, considering that Brahms 3 influenced Dvorak 7! I guess that's a kind of "back atcha."
I can only agree that Glazunov would be a worthy addition, but my main thought goes elsewhere-your shirt! I can’t help but believe it refers to the piece I finished listening to just prior to watching this: True and False Unicorn. What else could be on a list with it? It is so unique. This weirdly wonderful piece certainly deserves people listening, and deciding between abnormal and stupid.
Another interesting list. Sounds like a video on the Scandinavian Neo-Classists would be a good one for this channel. I readily admit to knowing only Sibelius and Nielsen, but want to learn.
Uh-oh, you did not include Joachim Raff's 5 "Lenore", this prolific composer's best chance of getting on the list... not going to argue with what IS included, but for anyone keen to search for greatness around the edges of repertoire - "Lenore" is the deep-Romantic melodic journey with a spooky Gothic program to boot. The way that marching military band comes up in the 3rd movement, taking the lover off to his death and glory, and then departs into the distance is, well, glorious! And the mad race of the Finale will satiate any listener hungry for the supernatural expressed in conventional musical language. Very cool, and Bernard Herrmann agreed. A great suspense score he never wrote - but eagerly conducted. :)) The best version must still be the swift Neeme Jarvi rendition. It is almost beside itself with excitement, and does Raff great service. Raff, Liszt's faithful understudy in his youth, wrote 11 symphs overall, and while I doubt any of them will get on Dave's list going forward, none of them are less than solid, and often beautifully expressive pieces of mid-19th c. German tradition. This was an "interim" period post-Schumann and before Brahms, but there was life continuing in the symphonic genre, and Raff was a big melodic part.
@@DavesClassicalGuide Heartfelt thanks! I am acquainted with some of those talks - perhaps not all, will check. Others would do well to look up your reviews of this composer as well. Here, I was just talking up ol' Raff in the context of this topic. He was, after all, a pretty highly regarded symphonist once. Worthwhile to see what the fuss was about.
If I could add a curve-ball, I would nominate Schoenberg's orchestration of Brahms's G minor piano quartet. It might just barely qualify if only because Schoenberg called it Brahms's fifth symphony. It's such a fun piece and certainly would be the most jovial of the symphonies if there were any real justification for adding it to the other four.
Perhaps it's because by the time they got to no. 5 they had had enough time to practice. Not nearly everyone succeeds with the first, but by no. 5 most composers have really managed to find the sweet spot.
Hey Dave So I'm trying to put together a list of the best American symphonies by the numbers and I'm kind of stuck on the 5th. Any suggestions for the best American fifth Symphony
I know you can’t cover everything here, but sad not to see Raff, Galzunov, or especially Rautavaara yet - their fifths are, in my estimation, their finest. Maybe another video of also rans?
I like that you note VW's 5th "almost too beautiful" quality and its dopifying effect, like valium through the ear. I love the work but concur. Oddly, he dedicated it to Sibelius in recognition of his "great example" and "without permission". Critics were quick to point out that it bore no relation to anything Sibelius. Yet I don't know... it certainly has that yearning I detect in Sib 7.
DH,,,off topic. Any preliminary thoughts about the Paray/DSO/Mercury/Eloquence pre-order. Two sets. Somewhat $$$. Btw. I finally broke down and bought the Szell box. Even the mono recordings from the git-go are great. I’m happy that I bought the Szell box.
I just considered, if I should mention the "Di tre re" in my additions. In my opinion, the 1st is one of the grandest movements written at least in the 20th century, and the 3rd movemt is powerful and gripping. But I have a problem with the scherzo. I find it very weak. So I did not mention the "Di tre re", although I adore the 1st movement.
I agree - Bruckner's Fifth I also consider his best (but not many Brucknerians think that way). It's a score with many miracles, yet with no revisions, and the most complex and best Finale, with the double fugue and great chorale, and with one of the finest codas in all symphonic music.
I'm so happy that you mentioned Arnold as a finale with cymbals and tam-tam-strokes! In my opinion, Arnold is the post-war-Mahler in depicting a world in his symphonies, and it is not his guilt that this world has become faster, less philosophical perhaps, with more distraction and shopping malls. This fifth is a triumph of symphonic statement, and the slow movement is unforgettable. It is one of my favorite 20th-century symphonies.
And in this case, I have not much to add fulheartedly. One work, which is very dear to me is the Fifth Symphony by Valentin Silvestrov, a great gesture of farewell, which develops a Mahlerian world of sound with glimpses on Scriabin out of a 12-note-chord in the beginning.
Then there is the Fifth by Rued Langgaard. Langgaard convinces me not very often, here he does, because he manages to create in this one-movement-work an arch from start to the end, and in the 2nd halve, there are moments of so wonderfully whipped cream that even Strauss seems dry in comparison to that chocolade cake.
With great interest and growing affinity, I listened to the Fifth by Karl Weigl, which is another Franz Schmidt insofar as he is rooted in the austrian symphonic tradition, more modern than Schmidt, more with hints of Schönberg and Mahler, and there are long stretches in this symphony, which are just gorgeous.
And now one of the odds, a discovery from a trip to Amsterdam: Matthijs Vermeulen's Fifth. What a strange piece this is! The style is nearly impossible to describe. Mostly atonal, but not really ugly in sound, it has to do with Mahler, Berg and the Schoenberg of the "Five Orchestral Pieces", but is melodically more flowing, yes, sometimes it seems that all the instruments sing, each one his own melody, but the impression is organic, not chaotic. There are moments, which remind me on Varese's "Ameriques", but Vermeulen has his own language, and he was, I must confess, one of my long-time-ago-discoveries of unknown composers, to which I return regularly even now, especially to this Fifth Symphony.
Cannot argue with your list. A couple off my head I would add are Raff and Glazunov. Glad you included lloyd. Definitely underrated. Thinking a bit harder, I love The Schubert with it's charming 1st movement. A theme you cannot get out of your head and Vegh's recording is so delicious.
I agree, Schubert deserves a special mention. His 5th is full of beautiful tunes, but the first mov is simply irresistible. It’s so irresistible, that I wasn’t so surprised when I saw Glenn Gould (the video is GG Off The Record), playing and singing the first mov in complete delight.
My favorite number 5 is Bruckner! Love that one.
Delighted to hear you praising Lloyd's Fifth. I hold it similar esteem, along with the Fourth and my own
personal favourite, the Eleventh which has that spine-rtingling finale - "The light at the end of the tunnel
we all hope to see" - according to the composer himself. I know it is coming yet it never fails to create
that eye-moistening physical moment in me.
I have a fondness for the Martinu Fifth. It begins timidly, but gradually intensifies into a splashy and powerful ending, almost like Sibelius' Fifth. The penultimate theme in the finale must be the happiest tune in the universe.
A wonderful work, I agree.
Bruckner 5 is my favorite Bruckner symphony, it really requires one to sit in for the whole symphony and see how everything rejoices in the last choral.
Yes, I would definitely add Bax, a large-scale and gutsy and emotionally engaging soundscape that gloriously revels in Bax's self-proclaimed "brazen romanticism." One of the most ravishingly beautiful orchestra sounds that I know comes from the harps and violins and tambourine at the beginning of the second movement.
As others have said, I cast a vote for Schubert's 5th for its inspired infectious tunes with Schubertian turns of harmony (among his first six, only the 2nd and 5th make my list)
And one of my fantasy gala concerts--which I have done at home-- is Raff's 5th 'Leonore' (not only for that fantastic March mvt) followed by Dvorak's Spectre's Bride, both based on the same story.
So glad you included Lloyd's among the Great Fifths. What an amazing orchestration, what beautiful big tunes! I think the Fourth is on the same level. For many years I've enjoyed Lloyd's symphonies, but with a certain feeling of guilt, because I'd read so many negative evaluations of his music as derivative, old-fashioned, second-hand Tchaikovsky etc. Thank you for dispelling that feeling!
I was fortunate to find Lloyd's music late in life - and had the privilege of meeting him socially. His
contritbution to music - but espcially British music - is profound. His "Symphonic Mass" is one of
The Prom's most inexplicably ignored masterpeices to the ongoing shame of that famous music
festival.
I was just listening to Lloyd’s Fifth the other day and loved it even more than I had before! Sure, Lloyd’s style is “conservative”, but it’s totally personal and there’s enough dissonance “spice” in certain passages that assure us that it is indeed a work of the mid-20th century. Is there a more beautiful and memorable opening theme in the entire symphonic repertoire? It takes my breath away every time I hear it. I love how perfectly contrasted each of the movements are - the 1st is beautifully pastoral, the 2nd sober and austere, the 3rd playful and balletic, the 4th tragic and passionate, and the 5th exciting and celebratory. If that ending doesn’t get an audience immediately to their feet, I don’t know what will! One of the many crowning jewels of Lloyd’s wonderful output.
I've been a classical music fan for decades, but I started getting very heavily into classical a couple of years ago. I came into this period in my life with Beethoven's 5th bring my favorite symphony, and years and thousands of hours of listening to other things later it remains my favorite symphony.
I love Arnold's 5th and 6th symphonies! It came as no shock to me that you included the 5th in your list. It's such an enjoyable and original work. Talking about fun, joy, humour and wit, that one's got all those things and so much more. Its 3rd movement ("con fuoco") in particular is so much fun. Great list otherwise. I'll have to give Lloyd's a shot or two, that one's totally unfamiliar to me.Why 1 or 2 shots? Because you don't always get it on the 1st listen. A case in point: Grofé's "Grand Canyon Suite" only opened up to me on its 2nd listen. That was last night, listening to Abravanel and Utah's version of the piece (the version on the "American Masterpieces" disc you recently recommended). Wowie zowie, that one's become a favourite orchestral work of mine now. Thank you 1,500 times!
I would definitely have included Glazunov's 5th. I think an argument could have been made in the Symphony no. 1 video for Glazunov's 1st as it fit the criterion of a composer being fully himself with his first symphony -- true for Glazunov even though he was a teenager when he wrote this really delightful symphony. And of course, I would certainly have had Mendelssohn's Reformation Symphony on this list -- such a beautiful, atmospheric work! I've never understood the supercilious scorn some have for this great symphony.
Yay, great list. I would say, the Bruckner, vaughan williams and Dvorak are my favorite 5ths. You summed up the Bruckner so well, it and his 9th where he really found his destination in Bruckner land. The Dvorak is tuneful, inventive and full of organic development. The vaughan williams is so beautiful its almost hurts. I keep awaiting a Rubbra, but i must be in a small minority .
Paul
Thank you for including Lloyd’s 5th. Lloyd is such an underrated composer, imo. I’ve never heard of Kaliwoda. I’ll have to investigate!
Thanks for talking about the cut in the last movement of Tchaikovsky 5. My first recording of this (probably purchased at my local A&P grocery) was with Odd Gruner Hegge with the Oslo Philharmonic on RCA Camden lp. It took the cut. I about wore out the recording and so imprinted the cut on my brain; now, 60 years later, every performance I hear of T's 5th, we get to where the cut would be, my brain gets ready for the cut, and it NEVER HAPPENS in present day performances.
Five seems to be the apex of maturity for composers. There are so many representing their known style. Great list!
Number 17 should be Glazunov - I think it's his greatest. The expansive first movement is epic. The scherzo's so compact and bright.The finale can be heavy handed if taken too fast. Number 18 should be Myaskovsky's, a composer not talked about much. He has some beautiful melodies. His fifth is very successful. I also love his 25th and 27th. Atterberg's 5th is an honorable mention.
I agree.
So many great No. 5's! In the unlikely event of my ever writing a symphony, I'd skip 1 to 4 and call it No. 5.
That's a very good list. I think that Schubert's 5th is one of the few actual great 5th symphonies that was left out. I simply can't help being gaga over Schubert and to me this is his symphonic masterpiece along with nos. 8 and 9. The wonderful opening of the symphony reminds me of a bud opening into flower and everything in Schubert's 5th is so springlike, so effortlessly flowing and refreshing, from first bar to last. Other Romantic 5ths outside the list (like Mendelssohn and Glazunov) are in my opinion good rather than actual great 5ths (near great at best).
However in more modern repertoire there are some 5ths that in my book could qualify as great: Silvestrov's and Rautavaara's. Both of the symphonies are filled with this mysterious, majestic, otherworldly atmosphere. Listening to those works is like being on a voyage in outer space or something. You don't think about the destination (you could hardly even know what to expect). You just enjoy the journey and marvel at all the mesmerizing things that you come across.
Amen on the Schubert!
I think Karl Weigl's 5th deserves a shout out. It is an interesting work which starts with the symphony tuning up, as if they are practicing prior to the symphony. Unlike Edgar Varese's composition, Tuning Up, there are no quotations or attempts at humor, just a straightforward orchestra tuning up. After the introduction, if you like music from the Austrian/German tradition (with echoes of Mahler), you will love this symphony. More people need to hear this work!
I’m surprised you didn’t mention how Arnold’s 5th has one of the most shocking, devastating endings in the symphonic repertoire, with the glorious reprise of the “big tune” from the second movement being cut short by a shattering E minor chord, after which the symphony closes in the darkest depths of the abyss with fatal strokes on the tubular bells. It completely devastated me the first time I heard it, and still does to this day.
Your point about so many composers hitting their stride somewhere around Symphony 5 is well taken. Quite a few symphonic cycles seem to speak of a kind of apprenticeship for the first two to four works, a peak or series of them from 4/5 to 7/8, then a slight tailing-off. Less common is a change of gears at the end. Holmboe's last three, Rubbra's last two, VW's last three, Arnold's 9th, Shostakovich's last three (in both symphonic and quartet cycles), not to mention Verdi's final opera, strike me as a kind of Pythonesque "and now for something completely (or rather) different".
I've always thought that the Tchaikovsky Fifth Symphony finale worked splendidly--on the emotional level it's stunning how the coda turns the 1st movement's cry for help into victory over itself.
I would have liked to have seen the Honegger (the Baudo Czech Phil recording is stunnnig) and I was going to suggest the Bax as well but you mentioned it at the very end. I loved most of your choices.
It took me quite awhile to appreciate Bruckner's 5th...At first, I never understood the abrupt stops and starts and the variance of style. My first impressions were that it was a narratively incoherent symphony. I really like it now, but it helps for me to understand it in terms of being analogous to Mussorgsky's Pictures of an Exhibition. It just occurred to me that these compositions were both composed around the same time. In Bruckner's 5th, I feel like I am wondering around an art-museum viewing various symphonic sculptures and paintings while on psychedelics...The finale is when the psychedelic experience starts peaking at a particular symphonic artwork in the classical music museum. When I think of it that way, it becomes my favorite 5th Symphony by anyone...so progressive for its time!
Number 5 seems to be a magical number in symphionosity. So many good 5ths ! Love the Nielsen 5. Perhaps I would have added Mendelssohn's 5th the so called Reformation symphony. It doesn't get the same attention as his Scottish and Italian but it deserves to be heard and enjoyed.
Love the Mendelssohn Reformation. Of course, it's really his 2nd Symphony. For those who don't know, the actual order of his symphonies are 1,5,4,2,3.
And Gade's 5th, which is close to a piano concerto.
Great choices. I've got a soft spot for Mendelssohn's Fifth, which I find a moving and wonderful piece. It truly is quite remarkable how many composers seem to have stirred themselves to raise their own game with their fifth symphonies. Martinu's Fifth too. I've become completely smitten with his sound-world over the last five years or so. His string quartets are equally as interesting.
Another great 5th, is by C.E.F. Weyse. He wrotre seven symphonies. Imho, his 2nd, 5th and 6th are his best. However, the 5th is the apex of his symphonic output. Classical in structure, lyrical and full of turns oif phrase it is a must hear.
I am delighted to see the inclusion of Tubin.
Huzzah! You picked Tubin! Please consider his Sixth, too. And you picked Arnold! And also his Sixth!
Thanks also for your continued championing of Lloyd. I'd love to see a little chat about a The Vigil of Venus.
The other Fifths I'd toss in are Bax & Atterberg.
Love your Nielsen‘s description. You nailed it.
I’m so happy that Holmboe’s Fifth is on the list! It’s a truly remarkable symphony. (The Second is another masterpiece, BTW, but I concede that the Fifth is in a wholly different level.)
Symphony No. 5 by Kancheli is also great
I end up singing the Lloyd 5 for days after each hearing..
Same here! Lloyd was undoubtedly one of the greatest tunesmiths of the 20th century along with Rachmaninoff, Prokofiev, Poulenc, Atterberg, Braga Santos, and Arnold.
So brave of you to include Arnold. It could be the catchiest of all the 5ths, perhaps that's why the rest of the critical fraternity snobbishly dismiss him. And great to see Bruckner's 5th right up there just behind Beethoven's. TH-cam videos are appearing listing the greatest or most epic symphonic endings. Your list would be interesting.
I'am surprised nobody has mentioned Weinberg's fifth. Powerful symphony. Excellent interpretation by Gabriel Chmura and Polish NRSO.
No, you can't possibly be surprised. That's just an affectation.
I agree - it’s possibly Weinberg’s greatest work. It’s haunting and powerful, and luminously orchestrated (great celesta part)! He was a rather uneven composer (at his worst, he could be quite grey and depressing), but when he was “on”, he was really “on”. My other favorites of his are his Cello Concerto, 3rd Symphony, and Piano Quintet.
I love so much the adagio of Shostakovich 5th symphony because it sounds like Morricone on steroïds
I love Mahler 5, such a great piece especially the Scherzo with its rhythms and colorful orchestration. I always skip the Adagietto and never understood its popularity, well, it's pretty as you said. And I also enjoy a lot the Finale which is really positive and lots of fun. Some say Mahler can't write happy music but come on... Honeck did a great Mahler 5 with Pittsburg.
Glazunov at 17 and Bax at 18. Glazunov has some really nice formal development and some really good tunes. Bax has this almost otherworldly soundscape, and any Bax work is laudable for its vivid orchestration. Maybe Bax will be in the 6s?
The only other Symphony No. 5 I would consider "great" that I would add would be Alexander Scriabin's "Prometheus-Poem of Fire". I admit I like "Poem of Ecstasy" a bit more, but this one is still amazing.
Some other Symphonies No. 5 that I enjoy and I feel are worth hearing:
Valentin Silvestrov (my favorite of his symphonies. A long single movement of uneasy calm. Beautiful)
Alexander Lokshin - Shakespeare's Sonnets (An intriguing symphonist. Shostakovich thought he was a genius, fwiw. I feel this to be his best, or at least most approachable)
Nikolai Myaskovsky (definitely my favorite of his "single digit" symphonies, and probably top 3 overall of his)
Allan Pettersson (what I think to be the first of the "typical Pettersson" symphonies)
Miloslav Kabelac - Drammatica (one of my favorites of his)
Louis Spohr (what I think is his greatest symphony, which, admittedly, ain't saying much. But this one is worth hearing)
I would probably have Schubert 3, 4, 5, 8, 9 on my lists.
Two of my favourite 5s: Arnold and Schubert.
Honegger's 5th - one of his weirdest, but unmistakable. An exceptional composer of marcato movements.
The work I would put forward as worthy of our consideration is Rautavaara’s apocalyptic 5th.
When I listen to this, I hear the music evoke what it was like to be human in the 20th century. In that regard, I think the Rautavaara 5th is as seminal as the Shostakovich and Vaughn Williams 4th symphonies, and the Nielsen 5th.
Perhaps, it goes even further. It sounds nothing like Bruckner, of course. Yet I perceive a spiritual dimension to this symphony as epic as his. I could spell it out in a very short sentence. But this would deprive people of an enlightenment that is only achieved by deciphering the message for themselves. Listen…if you dare.
When you mentioned Sibelius 5 requiring a great control of tempo it reminded me of that video of Bernstein smugly but masterfully showing a young conductor in rehearsal how to handle the rallentando at the end of the first movement, chatting away while in total control. Not an easy symphony to do well indeed!
And there's no rallentando at the end of the first movement.
@@DavesClassicalGuide I expect he meant that accelerando.
@@lawrencerinkel3243 That's right, my bad
Would you consider doing a talk on the music of Stanford and Parry? These two giants in British romantic music pre-Elgar and pre-RVW deserve more attention than they receive today. They are mostly remembered for their choral music, but A. Peter Brown in his Symphonic Repertoire series asserts that they are also great symphonists. I am not sure that I concur, but I do think both composers wrote outstanding fifth symphonies. What are your thoughts on this somewhat controversial and largely ignored topic?
They both wrote some good music, but aren't important or especially distinctive. I did discuss the Stanford Irish Rhapsodies in my Chandos "10 Best" video. I think his program music is better than the symphonies, generally. The topic has not been ignored--the music continues to be, and that says something!
If we're adding to the list, Robert Simpson's 5th is quite a hurricane, though it might qualify as a 'tough symphony'.
I sure would appreciate a video on the best Shostakovich 5! (And I don't think I'd be the only one...)
Oh, that's coming...
At Burger King you should place your order as "two Whoppers Junior," according to the grammar police. I really like Rodzinski's Tchaikovsky Fifth with the Royal Philharmonic, which has the cuts especially in the last movement. Mahler's Fifth is my favorite of his symphonies. Bernstein was buried with a copy of the score.
SO agree with you about the Bruckner 5! Interesting that Dvorak 5 influenced Brahms 3, considering that Brahms 3 influenced Dvorak 7! I guess that's a kind of "back atcha."
Yep.
I can only agree that Glazunov would be a worthy addition, but my main thought goes elsewhere-your shirt! I can’t help but believe it refers to the piece I finished listening to just prior to watching this: True and False Unicorn. What else could be on a list with it? It is so unique. This weirdly wonderful piece certainly deserves people listening, and deciding between abnormal and stupid.
Another interesting list. Sounds like a video on the Scandinavian Neo-Classists would be a good one for this channel. I readily admit to knowing only Sibelius and Nielsen, but want to learn.
Uh-oh, you did not include Joachim Raff's 5 "Lenore", this prolific composer's best chance of getting on the list... not going to argue with what IS included, but for anyone keen to search for greatness around the edges of repertoire - "Lenore" is the deep-Romantic melodic journey with a spooky Gothic program to boot. The way that marching military band comes up in the 3rd movement, taking the lover off to his death and glory, and then departs into the distance is, well, glorious! And the mad race of the Finale will satiate any listener hungry for the supernatural expressed in conventional musical language. Very cool, and Bernard Herrmann agreed. A great suspense score he never wrote - but eagerly conducted. :)) The best version must still be the swift Neeme Jarvi rendition. It is almost beside itself with excitement, and does Raff great service.
Raff, Liszt's faithful understudy in his youth, wrote 11 symphs overall, and while I doubt any of them will get on Dave's list going forward, none of them are less than solid, and often beautifully expressive pieces of mid-19th c. German tradition. This was an "interim" period post-Schumann and before Brahms, but there was life continuing in the symphonic genre, and Raff was a big melodic part.
I've already done a video on the Raff symphonies, and other works besides. There is a Raff playlist you can peruse. I will do more.
@@DavesClassicalGuide Heartfelt thanks! I am acquainted with some of those talks - perhaps not all, will check. Others would do well to look up your reviews of this composer as well.
Here, I was just talking up ol' Raff in the context of this topic. He was, after all, a pretty highly regarded symphonist once. Worthwhile to see what the fuss was about.
From reading the comments you have an entire second set of 5th Symphonies to cover - and why they didn’t make the first list
Have all of these but the Holmboe, though I have some of his othere symphonies.
If I could add a curve-ball, I would nominate Schoenberg's orchestration of Brahms's G minor piano quartet. It might just barely qualify if only because Schoenberg called it Brahms's fifth symphony. It's such a fun piece and certainly would be the most jovial of the symphonies if there were any real justification for adding it to the other four.
Can't argue with that list. Seems like "Symphony no 5" , composers really got their act together...
Perhaps it's because by the time they got to no. 5 they had had enough time to practice. Not nearly everyone succeeds with the first, but by no. 5 most composers have really managed to find the sweet spot.
I love your singing. You should have come over and appeared at Glastonbury and spared us from the Diana Ross horror show!! Maybe next year, eh?
Reminder to consider Haydn 6 for the next series!
It's already there.
Hey Dave
So I'm trying to put together a list of the best American symphonies by the numbers and I'm kind of stuck on the 5th.
Any suggestions for the best American fifth Symphony
I know you can’t cover everything here, but sad not to see Raff, Galzunov, or especially Rautavaara yet - their fifths are, in my estimation, their finest. Maybe another video of also rans?
No need. You just mentioned them. That's fair enough,
I like that you note VW's 5th "almost too beautiful" quality and its dopifying effect, like valium through the ear. I love the work but concur. Oddly, he dedicated it to Sibelius in recognition of his "great example" and "without permission". Critics were quick to point out that it bore no relation to anything Sibelius. Yet I don't know... it certainly has that yearning I detect in Sib 7.
DH,,,off topic. Any preliminary thoughts about the Paray/DSO/Mercury/Eloquence pre-order. Two sets. Somewhat $$$.
Btw. I finally broke down and bought the Szell box. Even the mono recordings from the git-go are great.
I’m happy that I bought the Szell box.
Yes, and very short playing times. I like Paray, but it's not a no-brainer,
No Honegger 5? 🤔
I just considered, if I should mention the "Di tre re" in my additions. In my opinion, the 1st is one of the grandest movements written at least in the 20th century, and the 3rd movemt is powerful and gripping. But I have a problem with the scherzo. I find it very weak. So I did not mention the "Di tre re", although I adore the 1st movement.
Only if you plan on slitting your wrists immediately afterwards.
Why not start high. Should get to the composers best work. You could start with 104. 😀