As a 4th generation foundrymen and currently the head of casting in a brass foundry I thought you might like to know a little about brass and bronze. The most common aloy out in the world is c95400 it's made from Cu 86% Al 10.5% an Fe 3.5%. in this aloy Zn is actually a contaminate with an allowance of .05%. there are many many others some that contain Zn. C86300 has an call out for 25% Zn. None of this was meant to be critical of anything you did. Your work is appreciated! Just thought my little bit of 2 cents might spark a bit of interest.
Not critical at all, I appreciate the input. I figured the brass being more resistant to the pine-sol than the copper and zinc alone had to do with what ever other metals were in the alloy. For the the scope of the video however I decided to keep it basic. the bigger issue I was trying to avoid is people using a dip like this on pot-metal, thinking its aluminum and then ending up with etched parts. I do appreciate the comment, the chemistry of alloys is complicated and even small changes can have a major effect on the resistance metals have to corrosion. It doesn't take that much chromium to covert steel into stainless.
Zinc is probably the single most reactive metal in common use. That's why it's use in sacrificial coatings so much because it will corrode before even aluminum. I'd be curious if the results would be the same on fully submerged parts. Being exposed to oxygen may have allowed a general reaction that wouldn't have otherwise happened if the entire part was covered.
45° F ish warmer temperatures would have likely accelerated the process in the beginning but typically reactions like that slow as a “protective” layer of corrosion builds up on the surface.
Totally unrelated to cars, but your testing has me wondering if I could use Pine Sol as an etching solution for making my own circuit boards, using the toner resist method. Would smell a helluva lot better, and be easier to dispose of than traditional etching solution.
I have etched a couple circuit boards and I don't know that the pine-sol has enough power. The only way I could see it having a chance of working is if you added heat but even then I don't know.
Might be a cool test, if you think it's worth doing a video on. Actually, a video on DIY circuits for automotive use would be neat. Anything from Megasquirt, to a simple LED board that controls the illumination speed to accurately simulate an incandescent bulb, would be cool. Anyhow, thanks for the response!@@dazecars
All of this completely depends on your definition of "Pine Sol". Is it fresh off the shelf brand name Pine Sol? Is it brand name Pine Sol ordered direct from the manufacturer (Clorox)? Is it brand name Pine Sol that's been sitting under your kitchen sink for 10 years? Is it one of the generics? These are not the same thing. Since around 2016 or so, brand name Pine Sol has contained exactly zero percent pine oil... unless you order direct, that is. They claimed this change was due to the limited world supply of natural pine oil, which makes sense because we've known it would dry up eventually going all the way back to the 50's or whenever it was first brought to market. On the other hand it doesn't make sense because the generics are still using it, so who knows. What I do know is the pine oil is what you want for aluminum, and retail Pine Sol doesn't have it. They replaced it with Glycolic acid, which is definitely not the same thing: Metal Pine Oil Glycolic Acid Aluminum (Al) Excellent Poor Copper (Cu) Poor Moderate Iron (Fe) Poor Poor Stainless Steel Good Good Brass Moderate Moderate Bronze Moderate Moderate Zinc (Zn) Poor Poor Lead (Pb) Poor Poor Nickel (Ni) Good Good Titanium (Ti) Excellent Excellent Carbon Steel Poor Poor
@@charlescalkins3485 Please point out the Pine Oil in the ingredient list, because I can't seem to find it: Original Pine-Sol Multi-Surface Cleaner contains: Water, C10-12 alcohol ethoxylates, sodium secondary C13-18 alkyl sulfonate, fragrance, citric acid, colorant, xanthan gum and preservative. Contains fragrance allergen(s).
@@charlescalkins3485 Actually I just noticed they are using citric acid instead of glycolic acid now, so Clorox changed it AGAIN. This might not be a bad thing since Citric is more compatible with aluminum than Glycolic but otherwise the same as far as compatibility goes. It is however not as strong as Glycolic, so less effective at the same concentration overall. Doesn't matter though, because Pine Sol has not been the best choice for what I'm doing (cleaning aluminum parts) for quite some time now.
@@charlescalkins3485 By the way, the label does not list the chemical composition of "fragrance" because there isn't enough of it in there to matter. Active ingredients are what we care about, which used to be 8-10% pine oil, then was about the same amount of Glycolic Acid, and as of last April is not Citric Acid. The scent is not the reason they used Pine Oil in the original formula, they used it because it was an effective and comparatively safe cleaner. They also knew almost from the start that the world supply of pine oil would not last forever so all of this was predictable (it actually lasted a decade or two longer than original estimates).
No it’s not, your information is a little out of date. Lead was used for years as weights but was deemed an environmental hazard so modern wheel weights are zinc. You can identify them because there is a Z on them, they are also typically larger because zinc is not as heavy as lead.
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As a 4th generation foundrymen and currently the head of casting in a brass foundry I thought you might like to know a little about brass and bronze. The most common aloy out in the world is c95400 it's made from Cu 86% Al 10.5% an Fe 3.5%. in this aloy Zn is actually a contaminate with an allowance of .05%. there are many many others some that contain Zn. C86300 has an call out for 25% Zn. None of this was meant to be critical of anything you did. Your work is appreciated! Just thought my little bit of 2 cents might spark a bit of interest.
Not critical at all, I appreciate the input. I figured the brass being more resistant to the pine-sol than the copper and zinc alone had to do with what ever other metals were in the alloy. For the the scope of the video however I decided to keep it basic. the bigger issue I was trying to avoid is people using a dip like this on pot-metal, thinking its aluminum and then ending up with etched parts. I do appreciate the comment, the chemistry of alloys is complicated and even small changes can have a major effect on the resistance metals have to corrosion. It doesn't take that much chromium to covert steel into stainless.
Thanks for sharing this experiment! I will try pine sol in the future.
Go for it!
Usually i find that carbs made from pot metal are quite a bit heavier than aluminum ones.
excellent point
Zinc is probably the single most reactive metal in common use. That's why it's use in sacrificial coatings so much because it will corrode before even aluminum.
I'd be curious if the results would be the same on fully submerged parts. Being exposed to oxygen may have allowed a general reaction that wouldn't have otherwise happened if the entire part was covered.
The feedback I have gotten is fully submerged zinc will etch but not pit. Once a dark gray layer covers the part the reaction either stops or slows.
Thanks for running this experiment and results !
My pleasure. Thanks for watching!!
Good experiment, what was the approximate ambient temperature?
45° F ish warmer temperatures would have likely accelerated the process in the beginning but typically reactions like that slow as a “protective” layer of corrosion builds up on the surface.
Totally unrelated to cars, but your testing has me wondering if I could use Pine Sol as an etching solution for making my own circuit boards, using the toner resist method. Would smell a helluva lot better, and be easier to dispose of than traditional etching solution.
I have etched a couple circuit boards and I don't know that the pine-sol has enough power. The only way I could see it having a chance of working is if you added heat but even then I don't know.
Might be a cool test, if you think it's worth doing a video on. Actually, a video on DIY circuits for automotive use would be neat. Anything from Megasquirt, to a simple LED board that controls the illumination speed to accurately simulate an incandescent bulb, would be cool. Anyhow, thanks for the response!@@dazecars
I built a megasquirt back in the day but that was long before I was doing youtube so there is no video.
Keep in mind that since that you proved that the Pine-Sol attacked the zinc it will probably also attack the zinc chromate finish on many carburetors.
It might but it also might not as the other components in the chromate might resist the pine-sol. Easy enough to test with a grade 8 bolt
All of this completely depends on your definition of "Pine Sol". Is it fresh off the shelf brand name Pine Sol? Is it brand name Pine Sol ordered direct from the manufacturer (Clorox)? Is it brand name Pine Sol that's been sitting under your kitchen sink for 10 years? Is it one of the generics? These are not the same thing.
Since around 2016 or so, brand name Pine Sol has contained exactly zero percent pine oil... unless you order direct, that is. They claimed this change was due to the limited world supply of natural pine oil, which makes sense because we've known it would dry up eventually going all the way back to the 50's or whenever it was first brought to market. On the other hand it doesn't make sense because the generics are still using it, so who knows. What I do know is the pine oil is what you want for aluminum, and retail Pine Sol doesn't have it. They replaced it with Glycolic acid, which is definitely not the same thing:
Metal Pine Oil Glycolic Acid
Aluminum (Al) Excellent Poor
Copper (Cu) Poor Moderate
Iron (Fe) Poor Poor
Stainless Steel Good Good
Brass Moderate Moderate
Bronze Moderate Moderate
Zinc (Zn) Poor Poor
Lead (Pb) Poor Poor
Nickel (Ni) Good Good
Titanium (Ti) Excellent Excellent
Carbon Steel Poor Poor
interesting info, thanks for the comment
@@charlescalkins3485 Please point out the Pine Oil in the ingredient list, because I can't seem to find it:
Original Pine-Sol Multi-Surface Cleaner contains: Water, C10-12 alcohol ethoxylates, sodium secondary C13-18 alkyl sulfonate, fragrance, citric acid, colorant, xanthan gum and preservative. Contains fragrance allergen(s).
@@charlescalkins3485 All you have to do is read the label. If it doesn't say "pine oil", it's not there (and it's not).
@@charlescalkins3485 Actually I just noticed they are using citric acid instead of glycolic acid now, so Clorox changed it AGAIN. This might not be a bad thing since Citric is more compatible with aluminum than Glycolic but otherwise the same as far as compatibility goes. It is however not as strong as Glycolic, so less effective at the same concentration overall. Doesn't matter though, because Pine Sol has not been the best choice for what I'm doing (cleaning aluminum parts) for quite some time now.
@@charlescalkins3485 By the way, the label does not list the chemical composition of "fragrance" because there isn't enough of it in there to matter. Active ingredients are what we care about, which used to be 8-10% pine oil, then was about the same amount of Glycolic Acid, and as of last April is not Citric Acid. The scent is not the reason they used Pine Oil in the original formula, they used it because it was an effective and comparatively safe cleaner. They also knew almost from the start that the world supply of pine oil would not last forever so all of this was predictable (it actually lasted a decade or two longer than original estimates).
try a mixture of PineSo and ethanol (everclear) 50/50 as a parts cleaner :-)
sounds interesting
Very interesting.
👍👍👍
Thanks for the visit!
Some water based degreasers will due that.
Good point
The piece that you say is zinc is a lead counterweight
No it’s not, your information is a little out of date. Lead was used for years as weights but was deemed an environmental hazard so modern wheel weights are zinc. You can identify them because there is a Z on them, they are also typically larger because zinc is not as heavy as lead.
Was the Pine sol straight out of the bottle or diluted?
full strength