9 gm difference in yield between 5lb force and 40lb force is large enough to say that tamping force does matter. What those figures are really saying is going over 15lb force doesn't matter but going below makes a difference. What he should have said is consistency is everything. Dosing at 5lb then 40lb makes it impossible to dial in the grind.
I agree. Also, Breville owners manual says to tamp to the silver line of the tamper every time. However, if I increase the coffee volume that increases tamping pressure because I am trying to cram more coffee into the same volume of space in the portafilter. So in fact, I am not only changing the amount of coffee grind but also I am increasing the tamping pressure which will make the puck harder. That's in my opinion changing two variables - amount of beans and puck density. And that will impede extraction in two factors instead of one factor.
Comments online say that the distribution tool isn't worth the $20+ for home baristas but it is so useful. Even if you only use it once or twice a day, you don't have to worry about moving the grounds around. It'll pay for itself in convenience and a perfect puck ready to tamp every time.
Good video. I bought one of those $18 Chinesium levelers about 2 years ago and I have been using it without a tamper. It took awhile to dial in the right depth to get the needed compaction, but it works great. My shots are much more consistent and I have never, to my knowledge, seen any channeling using the leveler and a naked portafilter.
Flat base leveler if extended enough could replace a tamper, making sure you apply it flat and level when pressing down. On the other hand, chiseled, 3 and 4 ridged leveling spinners won't ever replace a solid straight tamp of a tamper, although many newcomers and corner cutting espresso-hipsters would claim so. Glad it works for you. Cheers.
Awesome. Thanks for dispelling the questions/myths about tamping force! Now I feel much better about just focusing on even distribution and level force. (And worrying less about the variability my tamping is introducing as I try to dial in!)
Yah i've had enough experience in my limited time with espresso to know that tamp force has made a big difference in my shots. Exact same variables but depending on my force it made a nearly 10 second difference at some moments. At 2:19 you can clearly see at 18 seconds the difference in tamping has nearly a 10g weight difference. That doesn't really seem insignificant?
Most appropriated,I bought my coffee machine with literally no skills to make a perfect cup of capchino, my wife recommended that I buy a coffee machine to lessen my going to a coffee bar near my home.. Thanks am learning through your videos.. Francis. Lusaka,Zambia
How can you say tamp force doesn’t matter when the high and low forces vary by almost 10g of coffee? That’s a ~50% increase in mass going from 26 to 35 based solely on tamp force. Today I kept everything the same EXCEPT tamp force (is all i can presume) and pulled one shot with 44g and one with 32. I’m shooting for 36 to be 1:2. How do I get more consistent when you say doesn’t matter?
For a lower level machine, my ramping pressure seems to matter a lot. The speed of pour is extremely different based on my tamping pressure. Maybe this advice is only applicable for higher quality machines? I have the Carezza Gaggia around $350
Realistically, tamping pressure matters because having it done consistent (with a calibrate tamper for example) helps you eliminate a variable, which is fundamental to identify root cause for channeling or bitter extractions. It’s not something that changes the coffee, but eliminating the variable gives you troubleshooting easiness.
It’s simply not a variable at all. Once you’ve tamped enough to compress the coffee and remove air pockets, tamping harder does literally nothing at all.
And that's exactly what we've been doing for decades with great success. Then someone got bored and started inventing things like WDTs, RDTs and other DTs and things we didn't need to tell us how the espresso should be prepared.
Kind of confused on the tamping pressure demo - looked like a pretty big variation in output based on the tamp. Seems like not much of a difference from 20-30 lbs though, which is good to know.
With all variables held as constant as possible, the yield of a shot will easily vary by ±2g on a good day. Only the 5lb tamp managed to substantially exceed that standard deviation. The 5lb tamp was certainly meant to be an extreme case, but it's noteworthy that the result really isn't all that extreme. - Charles
I have seen that a lack of enough tamp pressure will cause fishers in our bar flow. As soon as we adjusted our levy tamp with a stronger pressure everything became consistent again.
@@beck2929 it does however demonstrate that if you tamp on a regular basis, getting good results, then the slight variety in tamp pressure isn't a noteworthy factor.
the portafilter you were using was flush against the counter - some have those edges on the bottom and are not flush. I just ordered a ranchillio silva pro from clive and am waiting for it. will I be able to have my portafilter flush too? A lot of my friends machines have the prongs on the bottom and I find it difficult to tamp evenly
Thanks so much i just got a new grinder to get a fine grind for my non pressurised basket im quite new to making coffee with a non pressurised basket and i was wondering if i was ever tamping to hard or too little your video really helped i liked and subscribed keep up the amazing work
I just got the Breville Bambino. I’m learning a lot and see I have a way to go. Do you think the portafilter the bambino came with is good to use or is there a better one on the market you recommend? Thanks
@@lukec2226 In my experience beyond a certain force it reduces the quality of your espresso as coffee grounds which are too compacted suffer from over-extraction
How come that people claim the preasure does not affect flowrate, but still an uneven tamp happens to do just that ? Isnt that abit conflicting ? At 2:25 its obvious that tamping preasure has a BIG affect on the flow rate. The difference between 14 and 30 lb is actually 4,5 grams or about 16 %.
This is the best: trying to backup a claim that tamping pressure is irrelevant and then showing results where there's more than 35% difference in output weight!
I think what he meant was force doesn't matter that much. Even tamping and distribution is much more important. Applying 20 lbs vs 40lbs of force. Should result in very similar shots.
What he proved is that with extreme outlier pressures (5lbs) the yield is not that extreme. The message is to tamp with a close to same force, if you push it with 40 lbs the do always 40, if you push it with 10lbs, do always 10. You still can drink good coffees. If you push it once 10 lbs and another time 40 lbs, the difference is significant, ofc. But for chasing the perfect coffee, you don’t have to chase the perfect tamping pressure.
@@matthewd6306 They should have taste tested. Those hardest pressure tamps will have been very bitter due to over-extraction. There is absolutely such a thing as tamping too hard.
For us, tamping 25 or 30 lbs pressure allows for more coffee in the pod and a more intense coffee flavor. Of course, it depends on the type and roast of the bean, but intensity and aroma are essential and depend on the right volume of coffee being used.
not quite sure they actually proved it doesnt matter either.. their own experiment showed differing weight of extracted coffee with the lightly tamped having more water ...
Appears the Saint Anthony Industries New Levy Tamp would also providing leveling like their "Distribution Tool". If so seems one would not need both to accomplish leveling as well as tamp?
I’m just lost. I’ve never had an issue tamping for a while. I just got a new bottom was part of filter, I have a really nice distributor, and a good temp. I also tamp on a tamping station block. Yet I am getting some channeling and a slightly wet puck. I don’t know why. My tamp appears extremely even.
If you have yet to find it, here is a link to the website of the company he was referring to stanthonyind.com/collections/wood_metal If you would prefer a much cheaper option, look up "Coffee tamper and distributer" on Amazon
So watching this, if the tamp pressure does not matter much, then can one just simply use the wedge tool without tamping? You used both tools, but maybe that was just for demonstration purposes?
Hello, sorry, am I missing something or did he just prove that tamping actually does matter but said that it doesn't? 35.8g to 26.4g is a HUGE difference mathematically and scientifically? I am new to espresso, so maybe I am missing something. Please someone answer
You're absolutely right. This video is really quite poor. Over-tamping is entirely possible. Notice how Clive Coffee didn't do a taste test, if they had they would have found the highest pressure tamped coffee will taste very bitter due to over-extraction. If you over-tamp or grind too fine you compress the coffee grounds too much which results in water remaining in contact for too long with the coffee which = over-extraction = bitter, terrible espresso.
What could cause my shots to struggle to come out before 20 seconds for first drop? I can't understand it - I thought it was over tamped. Sometimes it comes out within 6 seconds but the last 2 it's been over 20 seconds before first drop
Hi Monique! Keep your tamp as consistent as possible, it sounds like you just may need to make a change to your grind size. If you're not seeing your first drops until 20 seconds in I'd definitely adjust your grind a little coarser. That should allow water to pass through a bit quicker. Hope this helps, happy brewing! -Amanda
Sure as Clive says grinding too finely can do it...or it's because your tamping too hard which is absolutely possible to do. Too hard = overcompacted grounds = over-extraction. Not sure how Clive Coffee thinks otherwise. Both overtamping and grinding too finely offer the same result - bitter tasting over-extracted coffee.
2:00 - This is dumbfounding; how can you say a 36g yield at 5lbs is in any way "the same" as a 26g yield at 40lbs? That's nearly a 30% difference. If that difference is inconsequential to you, you should reevaluate the standards you brew at and at the very least, have the decency to not spread bizarre contradictory information into the world.A 5 pound tamp is obviously a non factor most of the time, but 10 - 40lb is realistic and has a clear impact on shot times and other variables.
I think the 5lb pound example was meant as an extreme one, to show that it takes an almost complete absence of pressure to yield a shot that will fall outside the typically desired variance. The take home message for me was, "you don't have to tamp all that hard to get good shots".
@@KMerrells That's a good takeaway, but the whole video is on "perfecting your tamp". To me, this means understanding all the appreciable variables of tamping that effect the shot. If 2 different baristas tamp at different pressures, (14 lb and 32 lb) they have the potential to pull very different tasting shots. A 5 gram difference in yield is difference between a perfect shot and a sour one. Pressure consistency is paramount in the ocd world of espresso.
This video is really poor because it is badly explained and their conclusions are incorrect. People who are starting out would go a long way to realise excessive tamping is very much possible. If they watched this video only, they would be very misinformed.
I think that if you tamp really hard and your coffee was not properly distributed before that you will get a lot more channeling that if you tamp just right and level nicely
Use a scale. Most baristas use a 1:2 ratio. So for a double shot grind 20g (.7oz) then place your cup on the scale whilst extracting and stop at 40g (1.4oz). Ideally, this should take around 30 seconds
Great video! I have some general questions about making espresso and was wondering if you could answer some. I have heard a lot about how most cafes using double shots to make their espresso and espresso based drinks because of the shape of most single baskets which means extraction of espresso is not always consistent. Even if a customer asks for a single shot, a double basket would be used to extract a double shot but the double shot is halved by placing two cups and espresso is brewed using a double sprout, so one shot is usually wasted. What would you suggest? A naked portfafilter is sometimes used for a better extraction, would you suggest using a naked one as opposed to one with sprouts? In terms of brewing ratios, I have heard that 1:2 is usually what to aim for. So assuming I will use double shots for my espresso based drinks and therefore add around 20 grams of coffee to the double basket, I should yield 40 grams of liquid espresso (which should take around 25 seconds to brew). Thank you.
Most of what you stated is spot on! We prefer "triple" baskets around here in part because they're entirely cylindrical, which means there's no funnel affecting the flow of water through the puck. For that reason, and the fact that you can watch your extraction as it happens, we generally recommend bottomless portafilters with a triple basket over any other option. That said, in many cafes double spouted PFs are still preferred for the reason you stated. With a double basket, you'll generally use an 18g dose, as 20g is a bit too much for most of them. 1:2 is definitely a good ratio, but shot time depends greatly on what coffee you're using. For that, I'll point you toward a previous video on pulling shots with different roasts. It's a great guideline, but remember to always defer to your sense of taste! th-cam.com/video/nd_J3ztFMJc/w-d-xo.html - Charles
@@clivecoffee I am considering purchasing this machine, I was wondering if you could give some opinions on it: www.coffeeitalia.co.uk/lelit-giulietta-pl2svh2-new.html Thanks, would greatly appreciate it!
It doesn’t really matter what machine you use, however you would usually you want to keep it at a 1 to 2 ratio. Meaning if put 15 grams of coffee in you should aim for 30 grams of espresso out, a normal amount of coffee to use is around 15-21 grams ish.
Yeah... there's nearly a 10g difference of water (or extraction whatever) between the 5lb and 40lb tamp. Surely there had to be a difference in taste, although to each their own of course.
@@030398ryoma exactly why this video is misinformative. The higher pressure tamped espressos will have tasted progressively more bitter. Over tamping results in bitter over-extracted coffee
If as you demonstrate, the pressure of the tamp is basically irrelevant, then surely you can use the distribution tool without a the need to tamp afterwards. I now only use the tool; no tamp.
Very useful material, thanks Charles. At the beginning of my coffee adventure, I was almost hanging on the tamp just to make sure coffee puck is well-prepared 😁
this is downright the most refreshing and unpretentious presentation of expert level knowledge around espresso making skills that I immediately felt the deep desire to unsubscribe all my other channels while becoming a new subscriber to you! Thanks!
Hey there! Yes, you can certainly still tamp flat and level with a spouted portafilter. If you're having a hard time keeping everything steady, a tamping station is a perfect solution. Hope this helps! Let me know if you have any other questions. -Amanda
My tamp is even and the stream of espresso always comes off the center. almost always way to the right. I use a distribution tool and it still happens. any tips?
That's interesting! There are a few things to check that come to mind. First, I'd check that water is showered evenly from your group head. If the water from your group head also tends to the right, that could be the cause and a new shower screen might be the solution. I'm also curious if you generally use the same coffee, and how far past the roast date you use it. There are a few coffee's which I've really enjoyed as pour over but with which I couldn't pull a good shot to save my life. Trying a few different coffees would be a good way to test this. Should neither of those seem to be the issue, you could consider trying a different basket. I used to be skeptical about "precision" baskets and how much difference they made, but I've become a really big fan of VST 20g baskets. When using them I experience less channeling and far more consistency, even without changing anything else. clivecoffee.com/products/vst-precision-portafilter-ridged-basket-58mm-20g The option of getting a basket is plainly the most expensive, which is why I'd recommend testing a range of coffees first if you haven't. Hope this helps! - Charles
@@clivecoffee After some troubleshooting. trying different baskets and replacing the shower screen with an IMS one, I've found the cause. the machine wasn't perfectly leveled. It wasn't a significant tilt but I adjusted the legs and the problem is resolved.
How do I switch between shots ? My coworker bangs out the used espresso puck and clears the basket with the hot water nozzle, then pulls a new shot. Is that right ?
Clive Coffee - I just got a Breville Roma which my local repair shop says was my first mistake. The machine, out of the shipping box, is is dribbling. The instructions says use only a grind suitable for home espresso not say, a Starbucks commercial espresso grind. However, the photos illustrating a commercial vs. a home grind are indistinguishable. I tamp as you describe, probably with 30 pounds. I was using ultra purified micron level filtered water. Instructions say to add a little tap as the 'sensors' in the machine won't operate without some minerals so I did so. This improved things but not much. I could grind the coffee a bit finer but this is going to be laborious going forward as I don't see that well...but I'm willing to try. My local repair shop's recording says "we work on no Breville machines." Curious if you think this is an issue with the machine?
Hey there! If your shots are still coming through too quickly, you'll likely need to adjust your grind finer. Breville handles all of their own warranty and service work in house, so its not surprising that your local shop wasn't able to help. Typically the issue lies with the grinder, not the machine. Hope this helps!
@@clivecoffee it's sure very thoughtful and I'll keep you in mind when I get a new espresso machine because this one doesn't even warm up properly after just four espresso drinks it's a lemon...
@@clivecoffee Thanks. Now, they're coming through way to slowly. I guess I can grind Starbucks commercial grind finer, but my thought is I probably got a dude and I don't know that I want a replacement from Breville.
I'm only a home user but I have a simple priority system. Decide how little coffee I can get away with THEN set the grind as fine as possible without brewing taking too long, THEN only tamp if I want to slow the flow a bit, otherwise I just use the tamper to flatten. Also I put my coffee into the portafilter using a spoon and swerve it to the edges which I think helps.
There is! At 1:38 you can see that the Wedge fittingly has a wedge-shaped surface, which is what makes it so good at shifting the grounds in the basket to get everything even. The Levy, on the other hand, has a flat surface as you'd expect from a traditional tamper. - Charles
@@clivecoffee Got it thanks! I was thinking that was the case and I must've missed the levy was flat in the footage. So ultimately a wedge would be a better distribution tool?
Great video! Any tips on how much coffee is ideal for a 54mm portafilter to pull a double shot of espresso? Ideally I’m putting in 17-18 grams... thanks!
Depends on what basket you have. Look up the basket model online and it will tell you the maximum recommended dose. One thing to look for though, is after you dose and tamp, lock the portafilter into the grouphead, and then take it out. If you have a noticeable imprint on your coffee puck from your grouphead, you likely have dosed too much.
So how does tamp pressure not matter if then you are gonna show us 5 different levels of pressure and how they all extract less and less espresso the more pressure we add. Isn't that enough to say it might have an effect. I don't get how that was proof
Tamping pressure does affect a shot of espresso. If you tamp lightly, water can run through the puck more quickly and extract less. It will typically change your shot time, and flavor of your espresso. There isn't an amount of force or tamping pressure that has proven to be the best though around 30 lbs is what the coffee industry has suggested for many years. My advice is to try to find a way to do the same thing every time and use your dose and your grind size to manipulate extraction rather than tamp pressure. I hope that helps! -Sam
Yeah exactly. A 30% difference is a lot. From 20 to 40 the difference was very little, but the difference between 5 and 20 is incredible. Saying tamping pressure doesn't matter doesn't really make sense, especially when he takes the time to prove that it indeed DOES make a difference.
@@freedomofnow I agree 100%. If you want a higher quality video from someone who actually knows what they're talking about. Check out James Hoffman's espresso making series of videos
My biggest problem when pulling a shot is that I can't get the same color or texture as is always shown in these kind of videos.. My best guess is that the distribution is off... :/
Distribution is definitely a great thing to consider and using the techniques and tools in the video might help. I was using a fairly dark roasted coffee in this video which has a big impact on how the shot looks. Lighter roasted shots don't always look so rich, but this says little about flavor. Is this with one coffee or with a variety of different ones? Some coffees are more troublesome than others. There are a few blends I've used that I can scarcely get a decent shot from, despite the fact that they're delicious on other brew methods. - Charles
@@clivecoffee I would say that I experience the level of crema no matter which one I use. There is some slight variation depending on bean blend, men but I have never ever encountered that rich orange color :/ I really like crema and the nuacnes it produces, but I guess that it is down to my techniques
@@TheCodeTinkerer We like them! Being able to calibrate the tamper for a specific depth and know that our tamp is always level is really convenient. The Saint Anthony Industries tools also have a satisfying heft to them, so they're fun to work with. - Charles
@@clivecoffee Thx for the answer. What kind of blend of coffee yields the most amount of crema? Just to try at see if it's my tamping or the like that is off
Can someone explain to me why my espresso is never that golden color. It's always dark like regular coffee, even though the package says "espresso". 🤔🤔🤔
Are you grinding coffee beans or buying pre-ground? Grinding your own beans just prior to using makes a massive difference I hear. I grind mine and always have a nice golden crema when I do it. I heard that using pre-ground doesn't get that crema so that might be something to look into if that applies to you.
@@velious2121 This video is terrible. You might be tamping too hard which results in over-extraction. Over-extraction results in very dark bitter espresso. If you want to watch a good tutorial series from someone who actually knows what they are talking about look up James Hoffman on TH-cam. He has a multi part espresso series.
Tamp to hard with finer grind. Espresso crap. Tamp to soft with finer grind better shot. Tamp just right with finer grind. Great shot. It matters, but the dose and grind mean more than the tamping. Also the bean.
For the record this video offers absolutely terrible advice. You can absolutely tamp too hard and over-extract your coffee resulting in a burnt taste. If you tamp too excessively the water can't penetrate as well with the same end result as grinding too finely. Espresso making is all a balance
Why is every single espresso machine video so pretentious 😂😂 “oh yes, the core skills of pulling espresso yes, tamping is the core skill” BRO you’re operating a machine I have in my kitchen. It’s making a cup of coffee. Get your heads out of your asses people
I wish all info videos were this brief, accurate, and pleasant to watch. Bravo!
Glad you liked it!
As soon as I saw this dude's black no collar shirt and Superman quiff I knew I could trust him. This man bleeds coffee.
😂
Best comment award 🥇
9 gm difference in yield between 5lb force and 40lb force is large enough to say that tamping force does matter. What those figures are really saying is going over 15lb force doesn't matter but going below makes a difference. What he should have said is consistency is everything. Dosing at 5lb then 40lb makes it impossible to dial in the grind.
I agree. Also, Breville owners manual says to tamp to the silver line of the tamper every time. However, if I increase the coffee volume that increases tamping pressure because I am trying to cram more coffee into the same volume of space in the portafilter. So in fact, I am not only changing the amount of coffee grind but also I am increasing the tamping pressure which will make the puck harder. That's in my opinion changing two variables - amount of beans and puck density. And that will impede extraction in two factors instead of one factor.
More like going over 23 lbs won't make a difference but going from 14 to 23 lbs apparently does make a difference according to this video.
That quality of information, video editing and camera skills are just gold. thanks for that.
Glad you enjoyed it!
simply and smoothly delivered, embodying substance and style - like a good espresso
Comments online say that the distribution tool isn't worth the $20+ for home baristas but it is so useful. Even if you only use it once or twice a day, you don't have to worry about moving the grounds around. It'll pay for itself in convenience and a perfect puck ready to tamp every time.
Agreed it removes some variables and after dialing in, the rest is pretty much set
Earned my subscription with the section of tamping pressure doesn't matter followed by their test.
Good video. I bought one of those $18 Chinesium levelers about 2 years ago and I have been using it without a tamper. It took awhile to dial in the right depth to get the needed compaction, but it works great. My shots are much more consistent and I have never, to my knowledge, seen any channeling using the leveler and a naked portafilter.
Flat base leveler if extended enough could replace a tamper, making sure you apply it flat and level when pressing down. On the other hand, chiseled, 3 and 4 ridged leveling spinners won't ever replace a solid straight tamp of a tamper, although many newcomers and corner cutting espresso-hipsters would claim so. Glad it works for you. Cheers.
Awesome. Thanks for dispelling the questions/myths about tamping force! Now I feel much better about just focusing on even distribution and level force. (And worrying less about the variability my tamping is introducing as I try to dial in!)
Yah i've had enough experience in my limited time with espresso to know that tamp force has made a big difference in my shots. Exact same variables but depending on my force it made a nearly 10 second difference at some moments. At 2:19 you can clearly see at 18 seconds the difference in tamping has nearly a 10g weight difference. That doesn't really seem insignificant?
it-s like he says one thing, the numbers show something else, yet people just parrot whatever he says brainlessly
You are a perfect lecturer,thank you.
I have gotten better
Thank you! Great job!
Most appropriated,I bought my coffee machine with literally no skills to make a perfect cup of capchino, my wife recommended that I buy a coffee machine to lessen my going to a coffee bar near my home..
Thanks am learning through your videos..
Francis.
Lusaka,Zambia
I love those practical examples
As a newb this was really helpful! Thank you so much
Always sensible and reliable. Always makes sense. Thanks Clive.
That's just what I needed to know, thanks Clive.
How can you say tamp force doesn’t matter when the high and low forces vary by almost 10g of coffee? That’s a ~50% increase in mass going from 26 to 35 based solely on tamp force.
Today I kept everything the same EXCEPT tamp force (is all i can presume) and pulled one shot with 44g and one with 32. I’m shooting for 36 to be 1:2. How do I get more consistent when you say doesn’t matter?
No more sputtering. Thank you!!!!!
Great video, but for me I think you proved that ramp force did matter. The yields were a fair bit different across the weights!
Yes, using a bottomless portafilter is essencial when learning distributing and tamping coffee.
For a lower level machine, my ramping pressure seems to matter a lot. The speed of pour is extremely different based on my tamping pressure. Maybe this advice is only applicable for higher quality machines? I have the Carezza Gaggia around $350
Mine too, my cheap machine can't pour if i tamp too strongly lol.
Realistically, tamping pressure matters because having it done consistent (with a calibrate tamper for example) helps you eliminate a variable, which is fundamental to identify root cause for channeling or bitter extractions. It’s not something that changes the coffee, but eliminating the variable gives you troubleshooting easiness.
But the point is that it is hardly a variable at all. So you don't need to eliminate it.
It’s simply not a variable at all. Once you’ve tamped enough to compress the coffee and remove air pockets, tamping harder does literally nothing at all.
I just tap a bit to even out the grinds before tamping. And I don’t apply much pressure.
And that's exactly what we've been doing for decades with great success. Then someone got bored and started inventing things like WDTs, RDTs and other DTs and things we didn't need to tell us how the espresso should be prepared.
Well explained, everyone should be this concise and meticulous in explaining.
Thank you! Glad it's helpful!
Kind of confused on the tamping pressure demo - looked like a pretty big variation in output based on the tamp. Seems like not much of a difference from 20-30 lbs though, which is good to know.
With all variables held as constant as possible, the yield of a shot will easily vary by ±2g on a good day. Only the 5lb tamp managed to substantially exceed that standard deviation. The 5lb tamp was certainly meant to be an extreme case, but it's noteworthy that the result really isn't all that extreme.
- Charles
I have seen that a lack of enough tamp pressure will cause fishers in our bar flow. As soon as we adjusted our levy tamp with a stronger pressure everything became consistent again.
Clive Coffee g
@@clivecoffee 2 g when talking about espresso could make a difference in terms of taste tweaking
@@beck2929 it does however demonstrate that if you tamp on a regular basis, getting good results, then the slight variety in tamp pressure isn't a noteworthy factor.
Thanks that was helpful!
Damn good and concise information
the portafilter you were using was flush against the counter - some have those edges on the bottom and are not flush. I just ordered a ranchillio silva pro from clive and am waiting for it. will I be able to have my portafilter flush too? A lot of my friends machines have the prongs on the bottom and I find it difficult to tamp evenly
Thanks so much i just got a new grinder to get a fine grind for my non pressurised basket im quite new to making coffee with a non pressurised basket and i was wondering if i was ever tamping to hard or too little your video really helped i liked and subscribed keep up the amazing work
Short yet very informative
Thanks
I just got the Breville Bambino. I’m learning a lot and see I have a way to go.
Do you think the portafilter the bambino came with is good to use or is there a better one on the market you recommend? Thanks
If I tamp lightly, the extraction pressure reduces. If I tamp heavy, the extraction pressure increases. Tamping force matters.
Yeah, I don't see how anyone thinks otherwise. I think he means that beyond a certain force, it makes only a minor difference.
@@lukec2226 In my experience beyond a certain force it reduces the quality of your espresso as coffee grounds which are too compacted suffer from over-extraction
This video gives me so much confidence excellent
How come that people claim the preasure does not affect flowrate, but still an uneven tamp happens to do just that ? Isnt that abit conflicting ? At 2:25 its obvious that tamping preasure has a BIG affect on the flow rate. The difference between 14 and 30 lb is actually 4,5 grams or about 16 %.
I like your coffee scale. Can I have some information about it?
That's the Acaia Lunar scale!
clivecoffee.com/products/acaia-lunar-scale
@@clivecoffee Thanks!
Clive, thanks for the Video!!!
How did you measure the amount of force?
This is the best: trying to backup a claim that tamping pressure is irrelevant and then showing results where there's more than 35% difference in output weight!
A really poor quality video that will misinform beginners, bring back TH-cam dislikes!
Wait how can you say pressure doesn't matter if you prove yourself a difference of 26g vs 35g in yields. Seems significant to me..?
Yeah thats what I thought lol. It seems to be more force = better as the last 3 pressure shots were roughly the same
I think what he meant was force doesn't matter that much. Even tamping and distribution is much more important. Applying 20 lbs vs 40lbs of force. Should result in very similar shots.
What he proved is that with extreme outlier pressures (5lbs) the yield is not that extreme. The message is to tamp with a close to same force, if you push it with 40 lbs the do always 40, if you push it with 10lbs, do always 10. You still can drink good coffees. If you push it once 10 lbs and another time 40 lbs, the difference is significant, ofc. But for chasing the perfect coffee, you don’t have to chase the perfect tamping pressure.
@@matthewd6306 They should have taste tested. Those hardest pressure tamps will have been very bitter due to over-extraction. There is absolutely such a thing as tamping too hard.
What also doesn't matter: The style and cost of your tamping device. 😄
say this to my plastic one which come with the machine
@@donalexey 😂😱😭
For us, tamping 25 or 30 lbs pressure allows for more coffee in the pod and a more intense coffee flavor. Of course, it depends on the type and roast of the bean, but intensity and aroma are essential and depend on the right volume of coffee being used.
not quite sure they actually proved it doesnt matter either.. their own experiment showed differing weight of extracted coffee with the lightly tamped having more water ...
I felt this was more a St. Anthony's tools commercial than a tamping tutorial.
Yeah. Like 200 bucks for a hunk of steel. Lol
@@BigPoppa-t3z Indeed $20 for the device and $180 for the marketing wank label
Thank you Josef Gordon-Levitt!
Excellent!
Perfect, thanks! 😉
So, if you use a distribution tool it's all fine? Even if your coffee ground ended up with more on one side of the basket?
Ideally, you want your coffee bed to be level and flat prior to pulling a shot. Oftentimes a distribution tool can set you up for a level tamp.
Appears the Saint Anthony Industries New Levy Tamp would also providing leveling like their "Distribution Tool". If so seems one would not need both to accomplish leveling as well as tamp?
Helpful info, thanks!
I’m just lost. I’ve never had an issue tamping for a while. I just got a new bottom was part of filter, I have a really nice distributor, and a good temp. I also tamp on a tamping station block. Yet I am getting some channeling and a slightly wet puck. I don’t know why. My tamp appears extremely even.
What is the name of the tool you use at 1:40?! Sesrc for it..but i not found anywhere.
Thanks in advance for your answer!
If you have yet to find it, here is a link to the website of the company he was referring to
stanthonyind.com/collections/wood_metal
If you would prefer a much cheaper option, look up "Coffee tamper and distributer" on Amazon
Did he say, "tamp subscribe"? Haha! I love it!
Oh yeah!
My question is...if i have a ridge 58mm VST basket, is a 58.5mm tamper ok to use?
@@zski1 Yes, 100%
So watching this, if the tamp pressure does not matter much, then can one just simply use the wedge tool without tamping? You used both tools, but maybe that was just for demonstration purposes?
Hello, sorry, am I missing something or did he just prove that tamping actually does matter but said that it doesn't?
35.8g to 26.4g is a HUGE difference mathematically and scientifically?
I am new to espresso, so maybe I am missing something.
Please someone answer
You're absolutely right. This video is really quite poor. Over-tamping is entirely possible. Notice how Clive Coffee didn't do a taste test, if they had they would have found the highest pressure tamped coffee will taste very bitter due to over-extraction. If you over-tamp or grind too fine you compress the coffee grounds too much which results in water remaining in contact for too long with the coffee which = over-extraction = bitter, terrible espresso.
What could cause my shots to struggle to come out before 20 seconds for first drop?
I can't understand it - I thought it was over tamped. Sometimes it comes out within 6 seconds but the last 2 it's been over 20 seconds before first drop
Hi Monique! Keep your tamp as consistent as possible, it sounds like you just may need to make a change to your grind size. If you're not seeing your first drops until 20 seconds in I'd definitely adjust your grind a little coarser. That should allow water to pass through a bit quicker. Hope this helps, happy brewing!
-Amanda
Sure as Clive says grinding too finely can do it...or it's because your tamping too hard which is absolutely possible to do. Too hard = overcompacted grounds = over-extraction. Not sure how Clive Coffee thinks otherwise. Both overtamping and grinding too finely offer the same result - bitter tasting over-extracted coffee.
Super cool video fun and informative, thank you. Your tamping mat looks like very nice quality? What brand is it?
Hi there! That tamping mat is from Cafelat. Definitely a staff favorite around here.
-Amanda
@@clivecoffee thank you
2:00 - This is dumbfounding; how can you say a 36g yield at 5lbs is in any way "the same" as a 26g yield at 40lbs? That's nearly a 30% difference. If that difference is inconsequential to you, you should reevaluate the standards you brew at and at the very least, have the decency to not spread bizarre contradictory information into the world.A 5 pound tamp is obviously a non factor most of the time, but 10 - 40lb is realistic and has a clear impact on shot times and other variables.
I think the 5lb pound example was meant as an extreme one, to show that it takes an almost complete absence of pressure to yield a shot that will fall outside the typically desired variance. The take home message for me was, "you don't have to tamp all that hard to get good shots".
@@KMerrells That's a good takeaway, but the whole video is on "perfecting your tamp". To me, this means understanding all the appreciable variables of tamping that effect the shot.
If 2 different baristas tamp at different pressures, (14 lb and 32 lb) they have the potential to pull very different tasting shots. A 5 gram difference in yield is difference between a perfect shot and a sour one. Pressure consistency is paramount in the ocd world of espresso.
Tamping pressure definitely makes a huge difference!
This video is really poor because it is badly explained and their conclusions are incorrect. People who are starting out would go a long way to realise excessive tamping is very much possible. If they watched this video only, they would be very misinformed.
I think that if you tamp really hard and your coffee was not properly distributed before that you will get a lot more channeling that if you tamp just right and level nicely
no!
@@NobleSteed00 yes!
Regardless of the distribution if you tamp too hard you will get bad espresso, this video drew completely wrong conclusions.
I use a distributor tool now and just give a light tamp but I notice lately a lot of blonding . Any ideas?
I have a cheap delongi machine that I have to manually stop the flow of coffee. How do I know when to do that?
Use a scale. Most baristas use a 1:2 ratio. So for a double shot grind 20g (.7oz) then place your cup on the scale whilst extracting and stop at 40g (1.4oz). Ideally, this should take around 30 seconds
Great video!
I have some general questions about making espresso and was wondering if you could answer some.
I have heard a lot about how most cafes using double shots to make their espresso and espresso based drinks because of the shape of most single baskets which means extraction of espresso is not always consistent. Even if a customer asks for a single shot, a double basket would be used to extract a double shot but the double shot is halved by placing two cups and espresso is brewed using a double sprout, so one shot is usually wasted. What would you suggest?
A naked portfafilter is sometimes used for a better extraction, would you suggest using a naked one as opposed to one with sprouts?
In terms of brewing ratios, I have heard that 1:2 is usually what to aim for. So assuming I will use double shots for my espresso based drinks and therefore add around 20 grams of coffee to the double basket, I should yield 40 grams of liquid espresso (which should take around 25 seconds to brew).
Thank you.
Most of what you stated is spot on! We prefer "triple" baskets around here in part because they're entirely cylindrical, which means there's no funnel affecting the flow of water through the puck. For that reason, and the fact that you can watch your extraction as it happens, we generally recommend bottomless portafilters with a triple basket over any other option. That said, in many cafes double spouted PFs are still preferred for the reason you stated. With a double basket, you'll generally use an 18g dose, as 20g is a bit too much for most of them. 1:2 is definitely a good ratio, but shot time depends greatly on what coffee you're using. For that, I'll point you toward a previous video on pulling shots with different roasts. It's a great guideline, but remember to always defer to your sense of taste!
th-cam.com/video/nd_J3ztFMJc/w-d-xo.html
- Charles
@@clivecoffee Thanks a lot for your reply!
@@clivecoffee I am considering purchasing this machine, I was wondering if you could give some opinions on it:
www.coffeeitalia.co.uk/lelit-giulietta-pl2svh2-new.html
Thanks, would greatly appreciate it!
How much coffee I should use for the de'longhi dedica EC685 portafilter please?
Google it.
It doesn’t really matter what machine you use, however you would usually you want to keep it at a 1 to 2 ratio. Meaning if put 15 grams of coffee in you should aim for 30 grams of espresso out, a normal amount of coffee to use is around 15-21 grams ish.
I just wish someone would show us how to use the single shot basket and best practices...
We'll add this to our list!
@@clivecoffee Thank you! It's like NO ONE uses the single...
I thought I see a clear difference in the extractions with different tamp force.
Yeah... there's nearly a 10g difference of water (or extraction whatever) between the 5lb and 40lb tamp. Surely there had to be a difference in taste, although to each their own of course.
@@030398ryoma exactly why this video is misinformative. The higher pressure tamped espressos will have tasted progressively more bitter. Over tamping results in bitter over-extracted coffee
i have a 65 pound tamper that works incredible.
How do you even lift it?!
@@troybattle I think they mean force?
@@GadgetsGearCoffee
Yes, BT my question was way funnier.
*but
I got that one. I just modified it to 252 pounds in my garage with a bicycle pump and 4” pvc that works incredible.
Really helpful
If as you demonstrate, the pressure of the tamp is basically irrelevant, then surely you can use the distribution tool without a the need to tamp afterwards. I now only use the tool; no tamp.
Hm I'll try that 😄
I often get channelling at the side...
well i did got a good spread and a good tamping but my espresso machine didnt like i did it with a hydraulic press...
you only should be tamping softly.
@@Ghorda9 ah... you did not get the joke... dude a hydraulic press? tons of force? :D
Very useful material, thanks Charles.
At the beginning of my coffee adventure, I was almost hanging on the tamp just to make sure coffee puck is well-prepared 😁
this is downright the most refreshing and unpretentious presentation of expert level knowledge around espresso making skills that I immediately felt the deep desire to unsubscribe all my other channels while becoming a new subscriber to you! Thanks!
is it possible to tamp flat if my portafilter has spouts? and my basket has a convex surface
Hey there!
Yes, you can certainly still tamp flat and level with a spouted portafilter. If you're having a hard time keeping everything steady, a tamping station is a perfect solution. Hope this helps! Let me know if you have any other questions.
-Amanda
My tamp is even and the stream of espresso always comes off the center. almost always way to the right. I use a distribution tool and it still happens. any tips?
That's interesting! There are a few things to check that come to mind. First, I'd check that water is showered evenly from your group head. If the water from your group head also tends to the right, that could be the cause and a new shower screen might be the solution.
I'm also curious if you generally use the same coffee, and how far past the roast date you use it. There are a few coffee's which I've really enjoyed as pour over but with which I couldn't pull a good shot to save my life. Trying a few different coffees would be a good way to test this.
Should neither of those seem to be the issue, you could consider trying a different basket. I used to be skeptical about "precision" baskets and how much difference they made, but I've become a really big fan of VST 20g baskets. When using them I experience less channeling and far more consistency, even without changing anything else. clivecoffee.com/products/vst-precision-portafilter-ridged-basket-58mm-20g
The option of getting a basket is plainly the most expensive, which is why I'd recommend testing a range of coffees first if you haven't. Hope this helps!
- Charles
@@clivecoffee After some troubleshooting. trying different baskets and replacing the shower screen with an IMS one, I've found the cause. the machine wasn't perfectly leveled. It wasn't a significant tilt but I adjusted the legs and the problem is resolved.
@@IlanDavid Ah, should've thought of that. Glad you were able to resolve this!
Ilan David whoa! That’s a nice troubleshoot. I never thought about machine level. Good job!!!
That was my reaction upon seeing you question.
How do I switch between shots ? My coworker bangs out the used espresso puck and clears the basket with the hot water nozzle, then pulls a new shot. Is that right ?
That sounds right to us!
@@clivecoffee thank u !!!!!
Thanks for the short, clear and very helpful explanations! Your videos are superb! :)
Start selling the tampers from St. Anthony Industries! Best and most luxurious tampers on the market.
Clive Coffee - I just got a Breville Roma which my local repair shop says was my first mistake.
The machine, out of the shipping box, is is dribbling. The instructions says use only a grind suitable for home espresso not say, a Starbucks commercial espresso grind. However, the photos illustrating a commercial vs. a home grind are indistinguishable.
I tamp as you describe, probably with 30 pounds. I was using ultra purified micron level filtered water. Instructions say to add a little tap as the 'sensors' in the machine won't operate without some minerals so I did so. This improved things but not much. I could grind the coffee a bit finer but this is going to be laborious going forward as I don't see that well...but I'm willing to try.
My local repair shop's recording says "we work on no Breville machines."
Curious if you think this is an issue with the machine?
Hey there! If your shots are still coming through too quickly, you'll likely need to adjust your grind finer. Breville handles all of their own warranty and service work in house, so its not surprising that your local shop wasn't able to help. Typically the issue lies with the grinder, not the machine. Hope this helps!
@@clivecoffee it's sure very thoughtful and I'll keep you in mind when I get a new espresso machine because this one doesn't even warm up properly after just four espresso drinks it's a lemon...
@@clivecoffee Thanks. Now, they're coming through way to slowly. I guess I can grind Starbucks commercial grind finer, but my thought is I probably got a dude and I don't know that I want a replacement from Breville.
I'm only a home user but I have a simple priority system. Decide how little coffee I can get away with THEN set the grind as fine as possible without brewing taking too long, THEN only tamp if I want to slow the flow a bit, otherwise I just use the tamper to flatten. Also I put my coffee into the portafilter using a spoon and swerve it to the edges which I think helps.
Thanks for the video! Is there a difference between the wedge distribution tool and the levy?
There is! At 1:38 you can see that the Wedge fittingly has a wedge-shaped surface, which is what makes it so good at shifting the grounds in the basket to get everything even. The Levy, on the other hand, has a flat surface as you'd expect from a traditional tamper.
- Charles
@@clivecoffee Got it thanks! I was thinking that was the case and I must've missed the levy was flat in the footage. So ultimately a wedge would be a better distribution tool?
I discover that some coffees produce channeling and other not. Event if your tampling is perfect.
Great video! Any tips on how much coffee is ideal for a 54mm portafilter to pull a double shot of espresso? Ideally I’m putting in 17-18 grams... thanks!
Depends on what basket you have. Look up the basket model online and it will tell you the maximum recommended dose. One thing to look for though, is after you dose and tamp, lock the portafilter into the grouphead, and then take it out. If you have a noticeable imprint on your coffee puck from your grouphead, you likely have dosed too much.
I have a Flair Pro myself. If someone can provide me a distribution tool for the diameter of the Flair I would be happy.
Good luck... I struggled to find one of 51mm diameter, yours should be 39mm. You might want to 3D print it yourself
So i can work with a plastic tamper too as long as i keep it all even and flat
this did help
So how does tamp pressure not matter if then you are gonna show us 5 different levels of pressure and how they all extract less and less espresso the more pressure we add. Isn't that enough to say it might have an effect. I don't get how that was proof
Tamping pressure does affect a shot of espresso. If you tamp lightly, water can run through the puck more quickly and extract less. It will typically change your shot time, and flavor of your espresso. There isn't an amount of force or tamping pressure that has proven to be the best though around 30 lbs is what the coffee industry has suggested for many years. My advice is to try to find a way to do the same thing every time and use your dose and your grind size to manipulate extraction rather than tamp pressure. I hope that helps! -Sam
@@clivecoffee awesome thanks so much for the reply. That makes a lot of sense now.
Tamping force does matter! Look at the weights of the different shots. up to 30% difference...
Yeah exactly. A 30% difference is a lot. From 20 to 40 the difference was very little, but the difference between 5 and 20 is incredible. Saying tamping pressure doesn't matter doesn't really make sense, especially when he takes the time to prove that it indeed DOES make a difference.
@@freedomofnow I agree 100%. If you want a higher quality video from someone who actually knows what they're talking about. Check out James Hoffman's espresso making series of videos
Go to Italy, watch them do it, no show off, no gadgets, just excellent coffee. Espresso shouldn't be a snobbish drink.
Unfortunately it became snobbish since "barista" and "tall, grande" became a thing.
I always tamp hard for better consistency
My biggest problem when pulling a shot is that I can't get the same color or texture as is always shown in these kind of videos.. My best guess is that the distribution is off... :/
Distribution is definitely a great thing to consider and using the techniques and tools in the video might help. I was using a fairly dark roasted coffee in this video which has a big impact on how the shot looks. Lighter roasted shots don't always look so rich, but this says little about flavor. Is this with one coffee or with a variety of different ones? Some coffees are more troublesome than others. There are a few blends I've used that I can scarcely get a decent shot from, despite the fact that they're delicious on other brew methods.
- Charles
@@clivecoffee I would say that I experience the level of crema no matter which one I use. There is some slight variation depending on bean blend, men but I have never ever encountered that rich orange color :/
I really like crema and the nuacnes it produces, but I guess that it is down to my techniques
@@clivecoffee What is your take on the "puck style" handles on the tamps?
@@TheCodeTinkerer We like them! Being able to calibrate the tamper for a specific depth and know that our tamp is always level is really convenient. The Saint Anthony Industries tools also have a satisfying heft to them, so they're fun to work with.
- Charles
@@clivecoffee Thx for the answer.
What kind of blend of coffee yields the most amount of crema? Just to try at see if it's my tamping or the like that is off
I feel like he’s the support guy from James Bond skyfall
Kinda makes sense force doesn’t matter, compacting by brute force is pretty ineffective
Can someone explain to me why my espresso is never that golden color. It's always dark like regular coffee, even though the package says "espresso". 🤔🤔🤔
Are you grinding coffee beans or buying pre-ground? Grinding your own beans just prior to using makes a massive difference I hear. I grind mine and always have a nice golden crema when I do it. I heard that using pre-ground doesn't get that crema so that might be something to look into if that applies to you.
@@JoeKool33 buying pre ground. I suppose that could be a reason why. Thanks.
@@velious2121 This video is terrible. You might be tamping too hard which results in over-extraction. Over-extraction results in very dark bitter espresso. If you want to watch a good tutorial series from someone who actually knows what they are talking about look up James Hoffman on TH-cam. He has a multi part espresso series.
Didn't really show us how to tamp straight
Tamp to hard with finer grind. Espresso crap. Tamp to soft with finer grind better shot. Tamp just right with finer grind. Great shot. It matters, but the dose and grind mean more than the tamping. Also the bean.
Tamping absolutely matters, my shots were coming out to bitter because I was tamping to hard. Once I eased up a bit, sweet Jesus baby!
Nice work!
i can smell his mouth full of espresso
"Tamp" subscribe ;) Nice
P
For the record this video offers absolutely terrible advice. You can absolutely tamp too hard and over-extract your coffee resulting in a burnt taste. If you tamp too excessively the water can't penetrate as well with the same end result as grinding too finely. Espresso making is all a balance
Coffee is way too complicated
@@parappathenappa1429 it can be sometimes, but it’s more fun than complicated!
The quickest chord proportionately drip because trail canonically drop with a industrious low. pumped, debonair join
Why is every single espresso machine video so pretentious 😂😂 “oh yes, the core skills of pulling espresso yes, tamping is the core skill” BRO you’re operating a machine I have in my kitchen. It’s making a cup of coffee. Get your heads out of your asses people
This video is terrible and pretentious but I bet you make terrible tasting espresso hahaha