Slower video for you guys today - and something I've been wanting to make for a while but just now got the opportunity to. I've got some great brands lined up for you the next few months. I hope you have a wonderful day. Here's everything from the video, using these links supports the channel at no extra cost to you, if you want! Cohen Loafers (Brown) - www.beckettsimonon.com/products/cohen-loafers?rfsn=7785546.5a1e2d& Shoe Conditioner - amzn.to/3yb913l Shoe Wax - amzn.to/3RDWJ9y Luxury Horsehair Brush - arterton.co.uk/products/horsehair-shoe-brush?sca_ref=6795669.I48JeyCd6o&sca_source=New-Shoes-cmt& Mid-Grade Horsehair Brush - amzn.to/3RvdWSq Budget-Grade Horsehair Brush - amzn.to/3RCxQuF Luxury Yak Hair Brush - arterton.co.uk/products/yak-hair-shoe-brush?sca_ref=6795669.I48JeyCd6o&sca_source=New-Shoes-cmt&
Love these more chill videos! Going to be perfect to watch as I sort out my closet and clean my new shoes! Might have to try some of this out on my new boat shoes!
Also, an easy budget way to start shoe care is military surplus stores. I got a full set of 2 application brushes, two shoe brushes, one garment brush plus a bunch of product and button fixing set etc. for like 10 bucks.
I enjoyed your video , this is a subject that is highly debated , some agree and some disagree , me I follow your thought process . And Saphir products rock ! Keep up the great work !
Hi! Unfortunately I don't think that will be coming anytime too soon. I am not terribly familiar with suede yet, though I would like that to be a 2025 project!
Love your're channel refreshing compared to the competition. you should consider a chamois (Polish Cloth) when applying these products. You can buy a large white tee and cut it to purpose there is more info online I am sure. This will make you shoe shining more efficient less messy
Hey Chris, do you have any recommendations on companies to check out for buying ties and pocket squares? PS I really liked your recommendation regarding Il Regalo socks! I don't feel like I really noticed the impact of wicking that everyone talks about while wearing them in shoes but I definitely liked the fit, look, material and how its thinness allowed my feet to dry really quickly!
Glad to hear Il Regalo is working out for you! Sam Hober is probably the best in the world for materials and craftsmanship that I have found. The best grenadine on the market imo. They are a bit short on patterns and designs, though. www.samhober.com/ Otherwise, Shibumi Firenze is great quality and has some of the best pattens I've seen. shibumi-firenze.com/ Rampley and Co. has some of the coolest pocket squares, designed to replicate historic renaissance paintings and such. Really stunning. www.rampleyandco.com/ @outbespoken on Instagram is my favorite inspiration for all-around classic menswear, but especially ties and pocket squares. instagram.com/outbespoken/
Thanks! I have it and have used it. I never really felt compelled by it or felt it necessary, though I know others do. If you feel like you aren't getting what you want just from the normal wax, it may be worth giving a try.
This probably will be a very dumb question, but i have to ask. When you talk about rubbing the conditioner in like you are rubbing a egg without breaking it , is it a boiled egg or a raw egg and your not trying to break the yoke. I haven't tested this myself but i assume that rubbing a uncooked egg will take substantially less pressure than a boiled egg.
Not a dumb question at all. Raw egg, trying not to break the shell. Or a glass vase. Though honestly I don't know that you have to be that granular that the difference between hardboiled and raw would make much a difference. Leather is pretty forgiving.
Thank you so much for this video! I just order my first 2 pairs of loaders. Now I know how to protect them. Is there anything I should do if it’s a suede loader?
Not exactly sure on suede, as I am still working on getting more versed in suede/nubuck care. 100% do not do this process on suede, though. Suede is a whole different genre of products and care and Full-Grain-Leather Conditioners, Waxes, and Brushes like shown here are not effective on suede and can very well damage it. Suede generally should be pretty okay as-is, so I would not stress about it. Plenty of other great resources on TH-cam that talk about suede, though!
I generally suggest just having a brush for darks and a brush for lights. The impact of color-bleed is almost nonexistent. Cleaning your brushes every few months if you use them often will also make it a non-issue.
I would not for new shoes. Maybe once every few months, depending on how often you wear them and how dirty them get. You could put a scheduled routine on it, though ultimately just doing it by discretion would be best. These two videos go much more in depth on ongoing shoe care and products: th-cam.com/video/9OYGuzpFhVM/w-d-xo.html th-cam.com/video/t8qi6v4wVWA/w-d-xo.html
trabk you for your content, I just ordered Saphir in amazon, but they don't ship to me, so I have to ordered smth else, like brick 4 , I hope this one will be sufficient for my thursday boots sneakers, and by the way, U a a very funny and cool guy! Good luck!
There are a variety of documented cases on the internet and I know of some shoemakers who have had customers unknowingly do so and email them about it. Not super common, but you definitely should be careful when using Renovateur on Crust (Patina'd) Leather.
How often should do this if i wear shoes once every two months, so like 6 times a year? Also after wear, once home, should i brush it, put trees in, and put it in a bag for long preservation? Thanks for amazing content.
You are very welcome! If you where your shoes just once every 2 months, you would probably be fine conditioning once every 4-6 months, depending on your climate. I suggest brushing them once you are home, though that is up to you and largely by discretion. Sometimes I do, sometimes I don't. Shoe trees should be considered mandatory. Putting them in a bag will help keep dust away and I strongly recommend it if your shoes are not otherwise kept in an area sealed from ambient dust. Here is my shoe care guide for more information: th-cam.com/video/t8qi6v4wVWA/w-d-xo.html
@@DressWell.Madaras yeah, I reanalyzed my spare soft and thin bristle toothbrush and came to a conclusion that its to tighyly packed, and this might make it to stiff and damage my shoes... Ill buy a shoe brush...
Shoe Cream (as opposed to Conditioner) typically refers to a product that is effectively a dyed conditioner, like this: amzn.to/3xbfoDu It's main function is to add dye to the shoe in a way that is light, forgiving, and easy to blend. Often it comes with waxes and oils that condition/shine/protect the leather as well, though that is secondary. A typical shoe care workflow might look like Conditioner (to restore structural integrity) ---> Cream Polish (to restore color) ---> Wax (to protect) Because these are new shoes, there is no need for a Cream Polish as the color needs no restoration. You could use it, though, if you wanted to add a strong tinge of another color or darken the existing one.
Recently found your channel, and so far, I am enjoying and learning a lot. Quick question: Recently, bought a pair of new old stock Florsheim Imperial shoes (early 1980s pair) as my first pair of "higher end" shoes. Do you think i should do multiple rounds with the conditioner just because of the age of the shoes?
Hard to say without seeing them. I'd say maybe just use a tiny bit more conditioner than what I show here, but still do one round. Wear them for a few weeks and if they seem like they need it, give them another round.
@@DressWell.Madaras do you by chance have a video on "dress sneakers" like Cole Haan or Amberjack shoes? Was interested in something like that for when I'm wearing dockers to church or something like that.
I may at some point. It just depends on scheduling. I always keep in mind what people ask for in the comments, though. I would like to do a video on that genre of products though.
Great content! Can I ask you for a piece of advice? I used saphir Rennovateur yesterday with a new pair of oxfords from CNES. Unfortunately, they discolored the shoes a little bit as I applied the product. The color stayed on my fingers and spread unevenly afterwards. What did I do wrong? Did I use too much cream? Did I press too much? What do you recommend I do? Would starting over (i.e., conditioning) help?
Part of why you want to use very little product - and test on an inconspicuous area - is because if you use too much product, it can lift the color for some shoes. How much a concern this is depends on how the shoemaker finished their shoes - and each shoemaker does so in different ways, even for different shoes within their product line. If your shoes have a patina that is relatively fresh, this issue is more likely. Though I have never had it happen when using an amount as small as shown in the video. Hard to tell, though it sounds like you may have used too much product. I can't properly diagnose without having a better understanding the the exact situation, though a reasonable solution may be to get a matching-color shoe cream and apply it carefully in multiple very-light, even layers to the affected areas until the color is restored.
It can vary but generally the risk of using too much conditioner is that it could start to strip the base finish of the shoe due to its solvent content. I imagine using way too much might also leave a greasy surface texture that could attract dust and other kinds of dirt.
You certainly could, though a good-quality resole will run generally $150 - $200. BS is $219 retail and often on sale for closer to $180. At that point, even if buying retail price, you may as well just get a brand new shoe.
Yes, I can't remember the exact one, but it was basically this: amzn.to/3KAxYIg There are a bunch of options outside this listing, some with light shelves or a lower shelf for a computer tower, etc. Really good for what it is - affordable, light, easy to set-up/take-down, perfect for studio use or just normal light-desk use.
I am not super familiar with cowboy boots. If they have lots of embossing, maybe just a thin layer to avoid buildup in all the various divots. Otherwise, if they are full-grain leather, I don't see why not.
Don't see any reason to use Reno on new shoes. It has stripping solvents which will take off the factory finish/burnish and leave the shoes looking worse. Just use an MDO cream + 1 layer of wax for water protection and you're golden, unless the leather looks dry reno is definitely overkill. If you MUST use a conditioner, stick to a solvent free mink oil.
I discuss much of this in the video. It is incorrect to say it will take off the factory finish. It will not, unless you use unreasonably large quantities. It can affect a patina on crust leather, however. Do not use a solvent-free mink oil. This has been widely discussed and explored on multiple forums around the internet in the past. Unadulterated mink oil is notoriously bad for dress shoes, causing them to become overly greasy and unrecoverable. In general, the consensus is it only has a use case for certain forms of heavy-use work boots. Even then, better options have been found. The reason Renovateur works is specifically because it is a mink-oil derivative/adulterated product, not pure mink oil.
@@DressWell.Madaras Reno is notorious in online forums for being too harsh for new shoes. Problems with it are extensively documented and the owner of St Crispins has even said he never recommends it for his shoes because it is too harsh. If you have to use such a tiny amount, why use it at all? Why not just use a shoe cream, because clearly your pair of shoes didn't need it, they had a factory finish and the leather looked fine.
I am familiar with no statistically significant quantity of documentation that Renovateur, when used properly, has negative effects on any Drum-Dyed Full-Grain Calfskin dress shoes. The sparse documentation you are likely referring to is with regard to customers who used Renovateur on Crust Leather shoes. St. Crispin's are also Crust Leather and such is why the owner recommends against using it on his shoes specifically. As much is said in the article to which you are likely referring: putthison.com/the-problem-with-saphir-renovateur/ Crust Leather is a leather that comes undyed from the tannery, which the shoemaker dyes themself or sells to a customer undyed so they can dye it themselves or hire a patina artist. Therefore, the coloration on Crust Leather is typically superficial compared to Drum-Dyed Leather that is dyed in the tannery. Drum-Dyed Leather has far deeper penetration of the dye. That is why Crust Leather is more prone to having color bleed with products like Renovateur. Crust Leather is also typically found in more expensive shoes, such as St. Crispin's. Though they may have varying personal preferences, no shoemaker that I know of recommends against Saphir Renovateur for Drum-Dyed Full-Grain Calf dress shoes. Neither have I ever experienced any issues with it. I explained in the video why I personally chose to condition these new ones and explicitly mentioned that it may very well not be necessary.
Slower video for you guys today - and something I've been wanting to make for a while but just now got the opportunity to. I've got some great brands lined up for you the next few months. I hope you have a wonderful day. Here's everything from the video, using these links supports the channel at no extra cost to you, if you want!
Cohen Loafers (Brown) - www.beckettsimonon.com/products/cohen-loafers?rfsn=7785546.5a1e2d&
Shoe Conditioner - amzn.to/3yb913l
Shoe Wax - amzn.to/3RDWJ9y
Luxury Horsehair Brush - arterton.co.uk/products/horsehair-shoe-brush?sca_ref=6795669.I48JeyCd6o&sca_source=New-Shoes-cmt&
Mid-Grade Horsehair Brush - amzn.to/3RvdWSq
Budget-Grade Horsehair Brush - amzn.to/3RCxQuF
Luxury Yak Hair Brush - arterton.co.uk/products/yak-hair-shoe-brush?sca_ref=6795669.I48JeyCd6o&sca_source=New-Shoes-cmt&
Could you also review boot types, like chelseas and chukkas? I dont know anyone that goes into details as beautifully as you do
Perfect timing - I've got something coming in the next few videos just for you my friend!
Calling it now, this channel will be at 100k subs in 1 year.
🙏
I'm only one guy. I'm gonna need help.
It's crazy to see your view count and sub count with the quality of all of your vids. I know these will age fantastically
Thank you :)
Love these more chill videos! Going to be perfect to watch as I sort out my closet and clean my new shoes! Might have to try some of this out on my new boat shoes!
Great stuff. Keep putting the work in 💪🙏
Thank you! Will do!
Always love your videos and this is no exception. Useful shoe information, high quality of editing and terribly hilarious jokes on point ❤🎉
Also, an easy budget way to start shoe care is military surplus stores.
I got a full set of 2 application brushes, two shoe brushes, one garment brush plus a bunch of product and button fixing set etc. for like 10 bucks.
Great tip!
I enjoyed your video , this is a subject that is highly debated , some agree and some disagree , me I follow your thought process . And Saphir products rock ! Keep up the great work !
I like the finger closeups. I was using way too much product. Now i know why my waxed toecaps look cracked.
Love your channel just came across it thank you for the awesome videos. At least your videos will last forever and not go into the cosmic abyss 😂
Hi Chris, can you do a video on how to care for and maintain suede shoes as well?
Hi! Unfortunately I don't think that will be coming anytime too soon. I am not terribly familiar with suede yet, though I would like that to be a 2025 project!
@@DressWell.Madaras sounds good Chris, have a great rest of the year!
@@pgopal6 You too!
Honestly 9:56 cracked me up xD
Love your're channel refreshing compared to the competition. you should consider a chamois (Polish Cloth) when applying these products. You can buy a large white tee and cut it to purpose there is more info online I am sure. This will make you shoe shining more efficient less messy
Thanks for the tip!
Hey Chris, do you have any recommendations on companies to check out for buying ties and pocket squares? PS I really liked your recommendation regarding Il Regalo socks! I don't feel like I really noticed the impact of wicking that everyone talks about while wearing them in shoes but I definitely liked the fit, look, material and how its thinness allowed my feet to dry really quickly!
Glad to hear Il Regalo is working out for you!
Sam Hober is probably the best in the world for materials and craftsmanship that I have found. The best grenadine on the market imo. They are a bit short on patterns and designs, though. www.samhober.com/
Otherwise, Shibumi Firenze is great quality and has some of the best pattens I've seen. shibumi-firenze.com/
Rampley and Co. has some of the coolest pocket squares, designed to replicate historic renaissance paintings and such. Really stunning. www.rampleyandco.com/
@outbespoken on Instagram is my favorite inspiration for all-around classic menswear, but especially ties and pocket squares. instagram.com/outbespoken/
@@DressWell.Madaras Wow thanks for the variety of recommendations! Is there one in particular you think is the best bang for your buck?
@@awsblacknight6956 Sam Hober
Congratulations on the video! What do you think about sapphire mirror glass?
Thanks! I have it and have used it. I never really felt compelled by it or felt it necessary, though I know others do. If you feel like you aren't getting what you want just from the normal wax, it may be worth giving a try.
This probably will be a very dumb question, but i have to ask.
When you talk about rubbing the conditioner in like you are rubbing a egg without breaking it , is it a boiled egg or a raw egg and your not trying to break the yoke. I haven't tested this myself but i assume that rubbing a uncooked egg will take substantially less pressure than a boiled egg.
Not a dumb question at all. Raw egg, trying not to break the shell. Or a glass vase. Though honestly I don't know that you have to be that granular that the difference between hardboiled and raw would make much a difference. Leather is pretty forgiving.
Thank you so much for this video! I just order my first 2 pairs of loaders. Now I know how to protect them. Is there anything I should do if it’s a suede loader?
Not exactly sure on suede, as I am still working on getting more versed in suede/nubuck care. 100% do not do this process on suede, though. Suede is a whole different genre of products and care and Full-Grain-Leather Conditioners, Waxes, and Brushes like shown here are not effective on suede and can very well damage it.
Suede generally should be pretty okay as-is, so I would not stress about it. Plenty of other great resources on TH-cam that talk about suede, though!
Since the colored wax gets picked up by the brush, should a different brush be used for every color shoe? Or does it not matter?
I generally suggest just having a brush for darks and a brush for lights. The impact of color-bleed is almost nonexistent. Cleaning your brushes every few months if you use them often will also make it a non-issue.
would you use mild cleanser on new shoes? If no how often would I use it? great video and thanks for sharing
I would not for new shoes. Maybe once every few months, depending on how often you wear them and how dirty them get. You could put a scheduled routine on it, though ultimately just doing it by discretion would be best.
These two videos go much more in depth on ongoing shoe care and products:
th-cam.com/video/9OYGuzpFhVM/w-d-xo.html
th-cam.com/video/t8qi6v4wVWA/w-d-xo.html
I love how you highlight which products you don't need
trabk you for your content, I just ordered Saphir in amazon, but they don't ship to me, so I have to ordered smth else, like brick 4 , I hope this one will be sufficient for my thursday boots sneakers, and by the way, U a a very funny and cool guy! Good luck!
Awesome, thank you!
Has anyone had a case where Saphir renovateur damaged the patina on their shoes?
There are a variety of documented cases on the internet and I know of some shoemakers who have had customers unknowingly do so and email them about it. Not super common, but you definitely should be careful when using Renovateur on Crust (Patina'd) Leather.
How often should do this if i wear shoes once every two months, so like 6 times a year?
Also after wear, once home, should i brush it, put trees in, and put it in a bag for long preservation?
Thanks for amazing content.
This is the new shoe guide, because they typically don’t come polished from factory. He has another guide for more regular shoe maintenance.
If you wear them that infrequently, definitely store them in bags to protect them from any dust build up.
You are very welcome!
If you where your shoes just once every 2 months, you would probably be fine conditioning once every 4-6 months, depending on your climate.
I suggest brushing them once you are home, though that is up to you and largely by discretion. Sometimes I do, sometimes I don't. Shoe trees should be considered mandatory. Putting them in a bag will help keep dust away and I strongly recommend it if your shoes are not otherwise kept in an area sealed from ambient dust.
Here is my shoe care guide for more information: th-cam.com/video/t8qi6v4wVWA/w-d-xo.html
Why are there so many brown options of wax? How do I know which I need?
Can I use a soft and thin bristle toothbrush to buff the shoes???
Ehh I would be careful and inclined to say no, though it wouldn't hurt to try it out if you felt there was a chance.
@@DressWell.Madaras yeah, I reanalyzed my spare soft and thin bristle toothbrush and came to a conclusion that its to tighyly packed, and this might make it to stiff and damage my shoes... Ill buy a shoe brush...
No shoe cream needed before wax?
Or shoe polish right? I think is Renovatour - Cream - Polish - Wax - Mirror Wax
Shoe Cream (as opposed to Conditioner) typically refers to a product that is effectively a dyed conditioner, like this: amzn.to/3xbfoDu
It's main function is to add dye to the shoe in a way that is light, forgiving, and easy to blend. Often it comes with waxes and oils that condition/shine/protect the leather as well, though that is secondary.
A typical shoe care workflow might look like Conditioner (to restore structural integrity) ---> Cream Polish (to restore color) ---> Wax (to protect)
Because these are new shoes, there is no need for a Cream Polish as the color needs no restoration. You could use it, though, if you wanted to add a strong tinge of another color or darken the existing one.
Recently found your channel, and so far, I am enjoying and learning a lot.
Quick question: Recently, bought a pair of new old stock Florsheim Imperial shoes (early 1980s pair) as my first pair of "higher end" shoes. Do you think i should do multiple rounds with the conditioner just because of the age of the shoes?
Hard to say without seeing them. I'd say maybe just use a tiny bit more conditioner than what I show here, but still do one round. Wear them for a few weeks and if they seem like they need it, give them another round.
@DressWell.Madaras Thanks. I'll give it a try. Just ordered the conditioner, cream polish, wax, and a pair of shoe trees.
@@jerardgeorge7415 Good luck! Let me know if you have any other questions!
@@DressWell.Madaras do you by chance have a video on "dress sneakers" like Cole Haan or Amberjack shoes? Was interested in something like that for when I'm wearing dockers to church or something like that.
I may at some point. It just depends on scheduling. I always keep in mind what people ask for in the comments, though. I would like to do a video on that genre of products though.
Great content! Can I ask you for a piece of advice? I used saphir Rennovateur yesterday with a new pair of oxfords from CNES. Unfortunately, they discolored the shoes a little bit as I applied the product. The color stayed on my fingers and spread unevenly afterwards. What did I do wrong? Did I use too much cream? Did I press too much? What do you recommend I do? Would starting over (i.e., conditioning) help?
Part of why you want to use very little product - and test on an inconspicuous area - is because if you use too much product, it can lift the color for some shoes. How much a concern this is depends on how the shoemaker finished their shoes - and each shoemaker does so in different ways, even for different shoes within their product line. If your shoes have a patina that is relatively fresh, this issue is more likely. Though I have never had it happen when using an amount as small as shown in the video. Hard to tell, though it sounds like you may have used too much product.
I can't properly diagnose without having a better understanding the the exact situation, though a reasonable solution may be to get a matching-color shoe cream and apply it carefully in multiple very-light, even layers to the affected areas until the color is restored.
@@DressWell.Madarasthank you!
What if we use too much?
It can vary but generally the risk of using too much conditioner is that it could start to strip the base finish of the shoe due to its solvent content. I imagine using way too much might also leave a greasy surface texture that could attract dust and other kinds of dirt.
Based on what you said in the intro, are Beckett Simonon shoes not worth resoling?
You certainly could, though a good-quality resole will run generally $150 - $200. BS is $219 retail and often on sale for closer to $180. At that point, even if buying retail price, you may as well just get a brand new shoe.
Did you buy your table from Amazon?
Yes, I can't remember the exact one, but it was basically this: amzn.to/3KAxYIg
There are a bunch of options outside this listing, some with light shelves or a lower shelf for a computer tower, etc.
Really good for what it is - affordable, light, easy to set-up/take-down, perfect for studio use or just normal light-desk use.
Due to funding constraints I will be buying only conditioner and cream wax polish
Now for suede lol
Should I wax my calfskin leather cowboy boots?
I am not super familiar with cowboy boots. If they have lots of embossing, maybe just a thin layer to avoid buildup in all the various divots. Otherwise, if they are full-grain leather, I don't see why not.
@@DressWell.Madaras Thanks, appreciate the response. Love your channel, keep it up! 👍
Don't see any reason to use Reno on new shoes. It has stripping solvents which will take off the factory finish/burnish and leave the shoes looking worse. Just use an MDO cream + 1 layer of wax for water protection and you're golden, unless the leather looks dry reno is definitely overkill. If you MUST use a conditioner, stick to a solvent free mink oil.
I discuss much of this in the video. It is incorrect to say it will take off the factory finish. It will not, unless you use unreasonably large quantities. It can affect a patina on crust leather, however. Do not use a solvent-free mink oil. This has been widely discussed and explored on multiple forums around the internet in the past. Unadulterated mink oil is notoriously bad for dress shoes, causing them to become overly greasy and unrecoverable. In general, the consensus is it only has a use case for certain forms of heavy-use work boots. Even then, better options have been found. The reason Renovateur works is specifically because it is a mink-oil derivative/adulterated product, not pure mink oil.
@@DressWell.Madaras Reno is notorious in online forums for being too harsh for new shoes. Problems with it are extensively documented and the owner of St Crispins has even said he never recommends it for his shoes because it is too harsh. If you have to use such a tiny amount, why use it at all? Why not just use a shoe cream, because clearly your pair of shoes didn't need it, they had a factory finish and the leather looked fine.
I am familiar with no statistically significant quantity of documentation that Renovateur, when used properly, has negative effects on any Drum-Dyed Full-Grain Calfskin dress shoes. The sparse documentation you are likely referring to is with regard to customers who used Renovateur on Crust Leather shoes. St. Crispin's are also Crust Leather and such is why the owner recommends against using it on his shoes specifically. As much is said in the article to which you are likely referring: putthison.com/the-problem-with-saphir-renovateur/
Crust Leather is a leather that comes undyed from the tannery, which the shoemaker dyes themself or sells to a customer undyed so they can dye it themselves or hire a patina artist. Therefore, the coloration on Crust Leather is typically superficial compared to Drum-Dyed Leather that is dyed in the tannery. Drum-Dyed Leather has far deeper penetration of the dye. That is why Crust Leather is more prone to having color bleed with products like Renovateur. Crust Leather is also typically found in more expensive shoes, such as St. Crispin's.
Though they may have varying personal preferences, no shoemaker that I know of recommends against Saphir Renovateur for Drum-Dyed Full-Grain Calf dress shoes. Neither have I ever experienced any issues with it. I explained in the video why I personally chose to condition these new ones and explicitly mentioned that it may very well not be necessary.