if the healer messes up - and dies = flame for the healers if the tank messes up and dies = flame for the heallers if the dd messes up and dies = flame for the healers i wonder why i burned so out atm xD
I'd be all for Saucy's idea of making tanks do dps numbers and updating mob health to compensate. While it might not fix tanking difficulty or any of the other issues y'all discussed, seeing bigger numbers is always more fun! Also, having overlapping interrupts not go on cooldown would be a huge win.. hopefully some day. 🙏🏼
Have to say from variety of games which have had perceived very toxic playerbases, when people join voice comms the level of jadedness and toxicity tends to go down by a significant margin. A certain level of empathy is often applied when there is a voice behind the actions and its a lot easier for most socially awkward gamers to type slurs and hate than saying it vocally to someone.
Interesting take. What games would have something like that happened to them? Even if it works as you say it is, it would probably be hard to get the WoW players to do it at first place.
@1:14:22ty Oracle isn't stronger at all. Once you get into 10s and above piety is useless because you can't over heal anyone so you're not doing any cleave aoe healing
I think the follower system is a good way to learn BUT it's to Easy for healing and tanking, I wish you could change the difficulty on it, Great Video Guys, thank you
That's actually a pretty good take! What is they made levels in the follower system so you can start easy and then ramp up a little bit to a point where what you do matters. Right now it's kind of hard to wipe in a follower dungeon but if you have control and you want to learn, it'd be nice to crank up the difficulty a little bit
I love playing disc Priest, it’s very fun. But I find I don’t have as much fun because I can literally feel my blood pressure and heart rate rise when I queue for a key. Even if that key is well below what my gear should allow,the way other people play makes it incredibly stressful.
Seen the solo queue brought up quite a lot recently, but with how in demand tanks/healers are they have 0 reason to ever engage with it. Solo queue would be off meta dps sitting in a queue while all the tanks and healers create groups in the group finder with meta specs
That's a good point but it could give additional options with certain criteria or requirements that you can set for the players. May be even have a separate rating for it. You do say that tanks/healers have 0 reason to use it but queuing for keys when you start to push beyond 12s is actually not a pleasant agenda for anyone as it would help all the roles at that point if implemented correctly.
As a casual healer who generally stays in the +7-10 range (old key scale), I find the new scaling and healing profiles increibly frustrating and entirely unrewarding. Any class I play with a Wild Growth type 5 man heal basically feels like shit. I take time to consciously cast at a time where I will hopefully not have to move out of swirls or cleaves - nothing happens. Health bars literally don't even move. They might even go down more as I spent several globals doing that cast instead of 5 individual flash heals (which also don't move health bars). It honestly feels like I'm doing negative healing most of the time. Nothing is rewarded. Every choice of global is just a choice of pain or more pain. The entire healing design team needs to understand just hiw awful this feels to play. It is truly horrendously bad.
Yeah, unfortunately the design has been moving towards making the game harder and harder for healers in particular. This is frustrating and although there are people like me who welcome challenges, at some point even I think it all went a bit too far, especially for more casual players who are not sweating to min-max every single GCD and push world first keys. Which is most of the players!
I think there is an opportunity to just make all non-major CD healing powerful and fun within its profile (HoT, flash, 5 man spread, etc), but push the punishment back into mana management while bringing back *simple* mana return mechs.
One issue as someone who has played tank but ended up stopping, tanks are in demand in mythic plus but in raids they are the least desired. Healers and casters seem to be in more demand in raids, so as a tank if you enjoy only mythic plus I suppose it could be fine but its something that I dont see mentioned often.
There's only 2 tanks in raids so there are much less spots for them there compared to healers so may be that is the reason. And I don't know, I've tanked in raid only twice and may be it was the wrong bosses on the wrong difficulty but it seemed very boring. They've done a long way and changed a lot of things since then but may be that is something to consider as well.
As a life-long resto druid, the issue with resto is as they offloaded more healing to regrowth, and therefore made us reliant on it, they created a problem in our ramp up style. We are not a reactive healer, we prepare for damage, but now to prepare for damage, you HAVE to have regrowths on full group. It's a casted heal, so 5 casts, globals, then rejuvs to empower those through mastery, efflorescence, swiftmend and then wild growth as damage comes in to heal the group. All of that takes 14 seconds. In the most ideal of conditions. If someone else takes avoidable damage and you have to use swiftmend to heal them, or any heal. You just missed your ramp window, the entire group dies. You get blamed. The ramp up time is now too long and if you are too late and especially if people don't use defensives, it's a wipe. If you react to damage, it takes way too long to heal the group up thanks to this, so you are not prepared for any damage. Some damage events, like 2nd boss in Dawnbreaker, the aoe is very very rough for us, rapid group wide damage, if you don't time that perfectly, everyone is dead. And since the ramp up is sooo long, it's hard to time right if you are not experienced. And I think that's mainly why ressto druid feels bad. Second problem and that's kind of an always present and constant problem rdruid always had. People still don't stand in efflorescence, in fact I still witness many people actively leave it thinking it is bad to stand in things. It's not as bad as it was in Dragonflight where that combo was third of our healing. It's no longer that strong, but it is still an issues when a group has to play around their healer and adjust positions to fit into a circle to survive, it just reinforces a meta that I will just rather take a healer where I don't have to do that to give us freedom of movement. So I think resto druids need a rework, there needs to be a new look on how they work to make them integrate better, or dungeon design needs to change so we are not at mercy of some abilities. Probably little bit of both to find the middle ground. Rebalance throughput of our different tools so regrowth isn't the be all end all spell that it is now. I don't wanna say empore rejuv or efflo more, cause I believe the rejuv spam is a bad gameplay and not fun too and needs to be looked at as well and efflo being too strong will only get us not invited because of the movement reasons and dpsers not knowing how to play around it.
Some pretty good points there that basically summarize why I don't enjoy the resto druid. I kind of liked the complexity in DF of shifting in and out cat from, doing damage, healing, etc but when it comes to the pure aspect of managing your healing, ramping up and then pulling your hairs when people take avoidable damage and you have to quickly top them up - it's just not what you want to play in PUGs. I'd love to see a redesign of some sort to change the game play style a bit.
what key levels are you talking about i play resto druid too and i agree there are some things to be adressed but unless youre in 14+ you never need to spend 10 globals for regrowths + rejuvs on the whole group. even in 16+ vickman doesnt do a full rejuv ramp on most bosses. you also got the rampant growth talent which applies regrowth to the 2 lifebloom targets, so you regrowth 3 people with 1 cast, and tank and yourself dont need as much active healing on aoe, especially since you probably stand both in efflo. efflo has 0 cd and can be replaced all the time, and it only heals 3 people anyways so it doesnt matter if 2 people are outside. if you stand in it, the tank and a melee youre getting full value. if you keep your lifebloom and efflo up, maybe the 3 regrowths you can react to unexpected damage just fine. you can regrowth instead of swiftmend if you wanna safe it for the aoe after i feel like you can improve some aspects of your gameplay, sounds like you overramp and dont use lifebloom efficiently. unless youre playing 14+ then i would say if you compare healer damage to disci or mistweaver you can see resto druid needs too spend more globals to heal than it should at that level, but its probably still better in that regard than shaman and holy pala
@@iWaZziT Well, there probably need to have classes like that but if you need to write an essay to explain how regrowths work then may be there's a better way to design it.... I don't think we said that druid cannot handle healing or run high keys, it's more of a matter whether or not you like the game play and I'm personally very biased on that but who knows, may be that will change soon as I'll have no other healer left to play and may be I'll start liking it again.
@@iWaZziT I think you are misunderstanding me. Sure I gave the most extreme example in case you are making a boss pull and you have nothing up. Which means 2 lifeblooms, 3 regrowths, that's 5 globals, then rejuvs, efflo down. The problem is you are talking about the 0,1% of gameplay in premade groups when you start mentioning +14s and +16s. That's basically a different game completely. That's not where majority of players are. I am summarizing my experience with pugs this season from early key levels and low ilvls and what I view as weakenesses of the class. You also have to understand, the game and the classes cannot be designed for us the 1% of top tier players. Otherwise we will find ourselves in a dead game and dead season like we currently do. When I play on alts my experience is at a point where I don't want to invite resto druids or disc priests. Cause it means we will most likely not complete the run. I am trying to acknowledge that our class has limitations and is in my opinion poorly designed for the current dungeons and they way they are designed and damage is coming in and too difficult for most people to play. (Basically here Blizzard failed to fullfil what they promised about healing not feeling as spiky, I think there was a lot of content showing the ratio between damage, hps and health pools as all time low, exactly a bad place for resto druids to be in with hots). Also honestly the constant unending spam and upkeep for hots means we have very limited room to catweave nowdays in pug environment. Blizzard keeps buffing Dream of Cenarius and Heart of the Wild in hopes to push that style, I have tried to make it work, but there's just no room for it due to the design of the class. We are too gcd heavy, too spamy and it's not fun or engaging. Btw thanks for your concern but I got near 100% uptime on lifeblooms. :-) You also don't seem to fully grasp how efflo works. You are forgetting about spreading spring blossoms for a mastery stack or verdancy. So ideally you want people to stand in it to leverage that. I still see it as weakness when we have multiple talents tied to something that requires active participation from other people. Sure you can blame it on people being dumb, but that's pug environment for you sadly. And I am talking this keeps happening in +10s as well. When I occasionally run with a guild group, it's like playing a different game obviously, and that's why I don't like any arguments mentioning any run above +10. Different skill level, different gameplay, does not represent majority. And is therefore completely irrelevant. Game should not be designed around that. But I think we can see that if we need to have a big talk about how different synergies work and how uptimes are important and positioning and everything druid has to do to actually heal, it's obviously not in the right place, it's not accessible to most people and it ends up pushing us out. You can clearly see the numbers resto druids are underrepresented and the meta that this feeling created leads to even me not being invited to +10s sometimes because people don't want resto druids. And I wanna believe there are better ways to make the class more engaging to play, to make it not feel like an intense chore and open room varied gameplay and hopefully make people trust us little bit more to keep them alive. (I sure can and I get compliments at the end of most runs for being a great healer, which only hammers down more my experience from my alts see how bad every other healer is.) When we find ourselves in invornment where tanks and healers mostly just clocked out of the game because of the difficulty curve, things need to changes, otherwise noone gets to play.
@@shiftey8 2 Lifeblooms and 3 regrowths are 3 globals. And I wrote that you dont need rejuvs already. I dont use rejuvs up until +13. And yeah thats exactly my point. The game below 14 is different in the way that you dont need a full rejuv ramp and you can play very well while having enough downtime to do a good amount of damage. Resto druid imo does not have real problems below that key level. So unless youre talking specifically about 14-16, i think its a gameplay issue on your side. I dont experience the problems youre having below 14. Below 14 resto druid is fine and its a player not design issue Im trying to explain to you that because the dungoenpool currently relies on spikehealing, the hots were nerfed and druid was made to a spikehealer using swiftmend and regrowth mostly. Thats the reason hots were nerfed and it does not make us worse at healing the current dungeons, it does make us better. but if your gameplay relies on coating the party in 5 regrowths and 5 rejuvs youre not making use of the current strength of spikehealing gamplay, youre playing suboptimally. There is no "constant unending spam and upkeep for hots". There is no limited room to catweave in a pug environment BELOW 14. I can go into any 10-12 key and do 500k dps overall and im not the best player. Thats why i asked about which key level youre talking about, because the problems dont really arise until 15+ and even then you can still do at least 300-350k overall. and healing is never the issue, you can heal any key just like all other classes, only you will maybe do less damage than a disci or mistweaver at some point, but not less than a shaman or pala Druid feels gcd heavy because youre not playing efficiently. I said it in my other comment, probably overramping and not playing lifebloom to its potential. you can have 100% uptime but still not play it efficiently. uptime is not all there is. in fact you dont need 100% uptime, you just need to have it on the right target at the right time How do i dont understand how efflo works? Spring blossoms, efflo baseheal and verdancy all have a 3 target cap. spring blossoms is the only one that can coat 5 people after 2 ticks but i doubt that 1 mastery stack on 2/5 people makes the difference in your healing unless you doing key levels where people should know to stand in efflo. in 10s it doesnt matter if people dont stand in efflo you can heal them effortlessly without. especially if he uses a defensive. if he doesnt stand in efflo AND doesnt use a defensive, why would redesigning resto druid be the solution? he just plays bad so he dies and hopefully learns But lets suppose youre right, 2 people standing in efflo for maybe 5% healing bonus is what makes your +10 really hard. Is it? There is a million other things that will brick a +10 key before 2 people not standing in efflo does. Not using defensives, not interrupting, not doing mechanics properly. You can make the same argument for "remove all mechanics and defensives because it requires active participation from people and is not suited for a pug environment". That doesnt make the mechanics wrong, that just means the players can improve. And i guarantee you every healer will have something that cannot be used optimally in pugs and relies on coordination, because coordination is the challenge in this game. Shamans have their totem, mistweavers have jadefire stomp, discipline priests cannot interrupt so rely on the group, evokers i dont even need to mention, like think about evokers dude, etc. Saying anything above 10 being completely irrelevant is kinda hard to be honest dude, i would agree with anything above 14 being irrelevant but up there is still affixes changing at +12 and its intended by blizzard people play these levels and the majority of dedicated players (click on a random twitch streamer chances are hes doing 12-14) do resto druids are not underrepresented because they are not capable of doing keys well, ESPECIALLY NOT 10s, its because people are meta slaves. when i play an alt key with a random disci priest guy i dont feel hes healing the key better than me, i know he doesnt. people just invite them because a disci priest timed a +18 while a resto druid only has timed a +17 and think it will make a difference in their 10 key when they miss all interrupts and fail half the mechanics. i can only repeat what i said, There is no "constant unending spam and upkeep for hots". There is no limited room to catweave in a pug environment. druid is not "too gcd heavy, too spamy". i dont have those problems, many others dont. i can go into any 10-12 key and have enough time to catweave for 500k dps while healing the party and any random damage with almost no effort, not spamming involved, just precise play. its you, you can improve your gameplay.
In regards to holy priest. Its what i play. You see im not a player that likes to be shoe horned into playing "meta/best spec" for the season because its easier or op. I like what i like and try to make that work. Holys biggest pain point imo is massive group wide damage since we lack proper aoe healing in a dungeon environment. Thing is.. this hasnt changed since at least Dragonflight so its nothing new. There are only a couple bosses that can cause any real issues for holy that ive seen where you simply can run out of CD's and are stuck scrambling to heal the incoming damage. If dps dont hold defensives to help mitigate some of it... it can be a bad time. It half suprises me that Archon is that popular in M+. Oracle is hands down is the better spec and is the recommended tree across the 'main' guides. You have more versatility and decent CD's to work with through Premonition. Why im half surprised is that Archon is kind of the no brain spec so people will naturally gravitate towards that given the option. Where Oracle you have to understand what your CD's via premonition do and how to use them appropriately throughout the dungeon to get the maximum benefit. Also JB my dude... you almost never hard cast renew as holy and havent had to for a couple xpacks now. With how the tree is now, PoM has a good chance of leaving renew on the person it just healed. So PoM is a top prio heal. Happy healing as holy when you do finally try it :D Just my 2 cents on Holy. But holy definitely could use a bit more tuning because during DF they were cooking... now... maybe its more the dungeon choices in S1? Somethings definitely worse.
The dungeon choices do not play into the strengths of the priest healers in general but lacking utility such as a simple interrupt in a meta where interrupts are basically everything in M+ is simply not fair imo. And if you have two hero talents that are relatively competitive and someone jumps on holy priest if they didn't main it recently, they will always choose the path of least resistance (Archon) even if Oracle is slightly better. I think that part is totally understandable - it feels so much better to have the halos blasting in and out instead of micromanaging the oracle skills, right?
Healing feels bad right now because until you hit +12s your job relies more on DPS using defensives than on you being good. As a tank, none of the changes they announced were implemented right except that they made tanks more reliant on healers. Dmg intake is NOT smoother and tanks do NOT dies less. It's just much harder and it feels terrible. From +12 and higher, most of a key's success relies on the tank, because one misuse of a defensive at the wrong moment and the tank bricks the key. Nothing the DPS or healer do will change that so they have no agency. This could easily be fixed, or at least helped, with a cheat-death trinket. No affix in a +12 is awesome but going from really hard +12s to easily 2-chested +11s feels really bad.
I mean sub 12 keys are also dependent on tanks playing good right now. There are so many mechanics in almost all of the dungeons where the tank would perish if they don't press their buttons. I probably can't even count the amount of bricked keys sub 10 because a "tank" kept getting one-shotted.
Its like that with all roles, it always depends a lot more on the group than on yourself, youre just one of 5 players. Thats the reason Im not really motivated to push rating further most of it is just spamming dungeons until you find a good group and dont do any mistakes yourself. Even if you could do much higher keys. And even if you theoretically know how to play your class perfectly and the dungeon itself does feel like zero challenge, you can still just fatfinger or get unlucky and then the key is bricked. You can play everything perfectly for 30 mins and then deplete because you mistimed a cd or something. Because of this I mostly just play alts right now, try to learn the class, maybe clear everything on 12 and when I feel there isnt much to learn anymore I only push keys when I feel like it but dont bother to tryhard it. The actual gameplay and progress for me is learning the class and getting better, not spamming for a good group, unfortunately that point is reached rather quickly on most speccs
I dont pug. I refuse to as a healer. Not having coms is just awful in M+ and honestly is half of the issue. Any dungeons i heal are either through guild, friends or some sort of community... which are out there to join. What is preventing someone who mainly pugs from joining a dungeon community or a guild that fits the content they run? Having others to run with where you know what you are getting into (guild/community) and in coms makes a world of a difference. You will have less problems overall. At least thats what ive found to be the case.
Well, you are blessed being able to do that :) The community take is interesting but I don't get to play more than a couple of keys with friends and even that is hard to align schedule wise and consistently. So it's the PUG world for me and indeed it has a lot of negatives, requiring quite the resilience to play in it.
@@thelegendbehindthecow I feel you for sure. I guess it would depend on how many keys youre looking to do and how high youre wanting to push as well because that will dramatically dwindle the number of people in your friend circle who will do those too. The community thing is real. I was introduced to one not that long ago that has hundreds of members. Its a good place to have as a fallback in case im not able to run keys earlier in the week like a lot of the people i know like to do. Its not bad. They have some rules so as to prevent toxicity and to promote a respectful environment but people are constantly running all levels of keys. They make a post in discord and youre off running. Something to consider for someone like yourself. Its still 'pugging' but youre less likely to find aholes and theres discord channels to jump into.
@@Sarkli Yeah, that sounds interesting. Feel free to share the links to the community here. May be other people (myself included) will be interested to find out more!
@@thelegendbehindthecow I tried... a couple different ways too and my post keeps getting removed >:( damn youtube. Wow made easy (all one word) is the link. There will be discord info etc on there
I will say this in every video comment section I manage to watch that talks about the kiss/curse affixes. Get rid of the curse component completely. 10s and under are not for sweats. Encourage people do the mechanic just to help them get big numbers. At 12’s and up, it equalizes, anyway. Get rid of the extra difficulty at 12 to compensate, and maybe the top 1% gets one more key level at the end of a season. Who really cares if they get to +22 instead of +21, really?
The gaps both at +12 and +10s are quite obnoxious, agreed. However, I don't think they will ever get rid of the curse part of affixes. The kiss was gone up until this season so that was a huge win by itself. And it feels really good past 11s when you don't have to deal with them even though they have a positive side as well. They are kind of making it hard for the low keys putting barriers to entry which does not help to get more people into it :(
@ that’s my big reason for wanting the curse gone is because it seems like a barrier to entry that really punishes people at the low end more than the high end (which I think is backwards). I empathize with the interactivity aspect, but I think it’s cognitive overload on people learning a game that I enjoy. Maybe if they nerfed the curse aspect a bit more (like mobs healing on the healing affix feels sooooo bad), I could get behind leaving the curse aspect? Or maybe the curses just need to be different, not necessarily more or less punishing.
@@Buntijr If they are to remove the curse part, they can remove affixes all together and their argument is that they want to keep it fresh and different every week. So I doubt it will happen, although they already took a step back and removed them after 12. And yeah, that healing affix also freaking heals bosses... like wtf :D
For the tank role, I think they should put defensive power into them doing damage. Whether it’s mitigation, healing, shielding, cd reduction, or whatever, make it so if they do their dps rotation correctly, they blast damage and survive better. They’ve gone this way for healers and some dps. Seems natural. Don’t make my pug warrior tanks choose between revenge and ignore pain- they choose revenge every time.
I wonder how many people are on the same boat with you. I don't have many tank friends (as nobody plays that role I guess) but I think all of them are kind of in the trend "Bruh let me do damage" and they don't care that much about tanking :D
I don't understand y they have to make low-level dungeons so easy they could make them a bit more challenging as you level up so u can learn how to tank or heal would even help dps players
I think they are easy intentionally so you can get more people to start playing in this game mode. Controversially though there are so many other decisions that create barriers to entry that it kind of makes it pointless indeed.
I been tanking since BFA and was leveling an alt brew master stumble on MW and I haven’t had this much fun in a long time and it’s been my main! MW MoH is so much fun in at 10s and this hero talents are a blast! I’m doing 6s on shaman and it’s fun but not this fun I start a disc priest this week and we’ll see!
Good choices over there! Disc is very different and it's one of them specs that have no middle ground. You either love it or you hate it. Let's see on which side of the spectrum you will end up being :)
Im enjoying keys this season. im a parent with a job and gym goer so i do 8 keys every week, around 2500, but this is what i wanted. A season where we had to heal more, tanks made vulnerable. I really think the most unhappy people this season are those whose entire existence is doing keys all day every day.
Good point. It's probably not as bad if you are playing more casually but as long as you get a little bit more into it...... And yes, per the other comment, playing DPS does feel like a vacation in comparison to healing :)
I think you get unhappy when you want to push rio and run into problems, say you want to go for 3k or title, and have 3 keys in a row where a tank randomly gets oneshot on a pack from tankbusters, then people tend to say tank nerfs are bad. But the issue is really that people mostly pug with strangers and the key can be bricked by a mistake of a single player, and you only have 1 try per key which can potentially ruin 20-30 mins of good gameplay
@@iWaZziT Agreed and one of the points that I'm trying to communicate across - the game needs to be more pug friendly. It's hard enough by itself on so many different aspects already and when you add mechanics and design that requires next level of coordination and communication, it just becomes too much for the majority of the player base
@@thelegendbehindthecow yeah i mean the problem arises only at a certain key level, and in an infinite scaling system there will always be this key level where it becomes "too much", but for some reason a whole bunch of people who cant do it properly still get into and play these key levels. dont know how to solve this. maybe increase the barrier for doing higher keys, requiring more experience, a certain amount of keys timed until you can progress into the next level?
The overarching problem is too much defensives. I understand it feels fun for the rest of the group but defensives indirectly destroy the healing role. Defensives force encounter designers to create spiky damage. The only way you can threaten the players is to simultaneously overpower both player defensives and healer output. Only then will a coordinated group be threatened. The trouble are twofold. Healers must have weak healing, otherwise any half good healer will be able to trivialize the content. That makes the healer role not fun. The other problem is that the weak healers will not be able to help an uncoordinated group. More anti fun for the healers. You can be as geared and skilled as you want, but in contrast to the other roles, you will never be able to carry a weak group.
Yeah and I think they kind of acknowledged that but said that defensive pruning is too hard to do right now and players would need those defensives to play in different types of content (like Delves). Very weak arguments if you ask me - fix the game and don't allow different game mode types to spoil the fun for each other - that part at least is not that hard as they've already done it for PvP vs PvE
@@DanH465 Yeah, I haven't talked on this topic yet but personally I was not fan of the talent trees initially and hero talents, as you say, only made things more complicated. Obviously they are not changing that any time soon but at least they should steer to a direction that will eventually reduce complexity and not the other way around.
@@DanH465 Yes and it does seem that they are sold out on them right now so we are going down this rabbit hole no matter what. Let's just hope the figure out changes for the better!
I don't really understand what's the issue is with people and Soothing Mist, it's a tool that depending on the build can allow you to bombard a person with single target healing in either in Raid or M+, of course Jade Empowerment has made it slightly obselete in M+ but it still has it's use cases. Why isn't Peer into Peace's part "Soothing Mist now follows the target of your Enveloping Mist or Vivify..." baked into Soothing Mist, it should be a great QoL. Legacy of Wisdom, bake it into Sheilun's Gift. Dancing Mists, Misty Peaks and Rapid diffusion should be baked into one, 2-3 talent point talent or at least just the first 2. I still don't know why the most versatile healer in the healer rooster, Mistweaver (reminder Mist weaver, jesus i don't know why i have to emphasize this to make my point more valid, it's literally in the name of it) has to have Jade Empowerment and Dance of Chi-Ji as a competing node instead of a passive talent that procs a buff which empowered both Crackling Jade Lighting and Spinning Crane Kick but you only get to it on one of them, makes the, "go back and forth" from melee to range and vise versa so much more interesting gameplay and it's not even broken or anything at all. And like, why the f is Rising Wind Kick a node Choice with Jadefire Teachings and why is that ratio at 30% + 140% and not like 70% + 100% for Ancient Teachings? When you spec into master of harmony, Rapid Diffusion (when picked) removes the damage buff from Balanced Stratagem if you cast Rising Sun Kick even though it shouldn't as RSK is a physical spell, likely because it was more convenient to code Rapid Diffuse to proc from your character at the time (and it made sense visually as well) but right now, it causes this conflict, many months in, i have reported this bug and it's still not fixed, and i am fairly certain it's not intended at all given the talents and spell descriptions and their specifications. If you unlearn Rapid Diffusion, the bug does not occur.
Usually tier lists are split between game modes(M+ and raid) and even meta versus class fantasy/design. Trying to classify healers in a catch-all tier list doesn't really do some specs justice, like priests, druids and prevokers, which have wildly different experiences and meta value depending on what game mode you are talking about. Take priest for example, disc is obviously meta in M+, but it falls short in raid. Holy is the weakest M+ healer, but it's also the best spot healer in raid. Disc has great class fantasy with voidweaver, but holy is quite "boring" comparatively and both hero talents feel like they have been slapped on in 10 minutes at the last moment and just tuned somewhat competitively so Blizzard can say the spec is technically playable.
@@thelegendbehindthecow Yeah, what I meant was it might have been better to split the tier list up into M+, raid and class fantasy: one bite-sized video per tier list.
I just looked up +5-7 keys in LFG and there were 3 keys up in all of NA. Perfect range for getting some alt gear later in the season. I've never seen M+ this dead. Boy did they ruin their game with the TWW changes.
I usually find plenty of keys up to the +10 range but none of them have tanks. And it only gets worse as the key level goes up. That said though, there's definitely a lot more to be desired right now from the LFG tool and the endless queue times so some changes to help with that will be very welcome!
They kind of, sort of, did as healer dps is irrelevant now. However, you are still dependent on other people using their personal and group defensives in order to succeed which feels really bad in pugs.
Ass Opinion: Learning to tank would be easier if there was a proper unit frame or window that showed every mob hitting you and who's about to run off to Narnia and Iron Fist your healer. I play WoW and XIV and I am much more willing to dip my toes into tanking every now and again in XIV, mainly because I know at the barest of minimums I'm doing my job of making sure the enemies are hitting me by that little icon that's telling me "Hey this guy is about to eat your healer, maybe throw a taunt at him".
The root problem is that Tank and Healers have way too much responsibility in a Key. If they make a mistake, the impact on the group is too severe. Majority of players don't want to take on that responsibility. Just like people in life don't want to have a lot of responsibility. This gets amplified by DPS player always being able to move the blame to the healer or tank. DPS not doing enough damage and the pull doesn't die before party runs out of defensives? Tank, why did you pull so many mobs. DPS not interrupting properly? Tank, why did you pull so many casters DPS not interrupting properly so Tank pulls smaller packs? Tank, why are you pulling so slow DPS not using defensives properly and die or get one shot? Healer, why did you not heal more or use your cooldowns better Blizzard has to find a way where the fail of player of a specific role has to have direct impact on what they are supposed to do in a dungeon. DPS player fails cannot have impact on people dying, at least not to the extend as is. If you don't interrupt properly other people cannot suffer for it. This is destined to create a negative environment. DPS player fails must have direct impact on their own performance. Thus the blame cannot get shifted to other people as easily. Blizzard also needs to make it more apparent to players that they in fact did fail the mechanic. They have the power to stop people from constantly blaming other players. There is not enough feedback from the game itself for players who are not researching every mechanic. Combine that with the natural ignorance and instinct of the current main character syndrome generation that it must be other player's fault when fails happen and you have a recipe for disaster. If the responsibilities get distributed more evenly among the entire party and fails have more direct impact on the roles responsibility, the PUG scene will improve dramatically.
To double-down on that concept, as is, one player can single-handedly ruin the key, but you cannot single-handedly carry the entire key. This feels very bad and is also a huge problem for a pugging scenario. A really bad tank will brick your key as will a really bad healer. Unfortunately even one really bad DPS can brick your key if they get targeted by certain mechanics and handle them badly which can get other people killed, thus ruining the entire run. Even them dying over and over while not using interrupts significantly slows down the run and with challenger's peril can single-handedly brick the key. Pair that with the limited information you have about other people when pugging and you feel helpless. Helplessness turns into anger and other negative emotions. Since it's very difficult to deal with that as a human, people will naturally lash out on other people that usually don't deserve to be the target of those emotions. Vicious cycle.
I think incentivise using metrics like parsing in logs (so not just damage or healing done) would be great. Avoidable damage avoided (or least taken), interrupts, dispels etc. Some favours.tank/healers but is that really a bad thing? Roll one if you want in on the sweet deal - makes lfg a better place. Could be more crest, chance of piece of loot, valor stones etc.
And do combine with a rework of kick like dispels. Might lead to some macro shenanigans but perhaps give it a short 1-2 second windows, so it's not just spam able.
I don't think they can do anything to fix the toxicity in M+. No matter what the design is, ppl will always find ways to blame others. Some pretty good points and takes in these comments though, thank you!
@@thelegendbehindthecow game has to be overhauled, having different objectives (survive as a tank, keep everyone alive as a healer and deal dmg as a dps) will never work. When tanks die, they can blame everyone else for dying. When DPS don't deal enough DPS or die, they can blame everyone else right now. When people die, healers can blame everyone else for dying. If the game had one shared objective aka dealing enough DPS and you would manufacture every role to essentially contribute towards that goal but in different ways, then there is a chance to evolve in the right direction. Tanks could have checks where if they fail that DMG mitigation check, entire grp gets a debuff that reduces haste / dmg dealt or something that indicates that the tank failed a mechanic because they didn't press their button. No blaming other people possible. Healer could have a healing absorb check similar to current devour affix. Healer fails mechanic, everyone gets a debuff with the healer indicator. DPS could have a mini DPS check, or kill adds or whatever. If that failed, everyone gets a DMG down. It has to be clear who failed the mechanic, no questions asked. Right now you can blame everyone which is bad. But then we're essentially talking about a different game... :D
Problem 1: should be servers and cross play by language. We type in English and barely 2/4 reply. And I am French saying that. Problem 2: no voice com, shitty text box. How can Vermintide2 from 2015 from Fatshark in Danmark provide better cohesion experience. Problem 3: tanks need rear view mirrors on the groups to adapt pacing and not go wipe their face too far ahead on a drinking healer. Problem 4: deaths are too punishing. There should be a m8 pug and a m8 challenging with then more rewards. Problem 5: the mechanics have no clarity or vocal roleplay HINTS for what to do. Thus players guess and fail. The orbs in Stonevault is a clear example. We need DBM and even with it it's still unclear. But players want gear above 619 so everyone bangs their skulls on the walls for those who are casual and wing it...
Everybody is sleeping on far seer. I run far seer and don’t even cast healing rain. Let me tell you something about the numbers you can get off on dps. Cast life bind, ancestral swiftness chain lightening your ass off. If people are using defensives, I can average 400k dps in a good group. Boss dmg with lava burst is pretty nuts too. You CAN squeeze about 50k dps out with acid rain but it’s not worth casting.
Interesting comment :) Honestly, I haven't looked into those numbers in awhile first, because I'm playing totemic and second, because healer damage is completely irrelevant but back in DF you would cast acid rain even on single target! I guess that's not the case any more.
Thank you guys for having me on!! This was so much fun to record! You guys made it so chill to come on and be a guest!
It was a pleasure to have you, thanks for accepting the invite! Looking forward to another episode where we can have you as a guest :)
if the healer messes up - and dies = flame for the healers
if the tank messes up and dies = flame for the heallers
if the dd messes up and dies = flame for the healers
i wonder why i burned so out atm xD
It's always the healer's fault man, always!
Great podcast, love the difference in viewpoint from some of the players on other podcasts. Keep up the great work.
Thank you, glad you enjoy the content!
I'd be all for Saucy's idea of making tanks do dps numbers and updating mob health to compensate. While it might not fix tanking difficulty or any of the other issues y'all discussed, seeing bigger numbers is always more fun! Also, having overlapping interrupts not go on cooldown would be a huge win.. hopefully some day. 🙏🏼
If that brings more tanks back into the game, I'm all up for it as well then! Let's see what they will do with interrupts for S2
Have to say from variety of games which have had perceived very toxic playerbases, when people join voice comms the level of jadedness and toxicity tends to go down by a significant margin. A certain level of empathy is often applied when there is a voice behind the actions and its a lot easier for most socially awkward gamers to type slurs and hate than saying it vocally to someone.
Interesting take. What games would have something like that happened to them? Even if it works as you say it is, it would probably be hard to get the WoW players to do it at first place.
@1:14:22ty
Oracle isn't stronger at all. Once you get into 10s and above piety is useless because you can't over heal anyone so you're not doing any cleave aoe healing
I guess I need to play it a bit more as I don't think any of us actually pushed on it past +10s so you are probably right!
I think the follower system is a good way to learn BUT it's to Easy for healing and tanking, I wish you could change the difficulty on it, Great Video Guys, thank you
That's actually a pretty good take! What is they made levels in the follower system so you can start easy and then ramp up a little bit to a point where what you do matters. Right now it's kind of hard to wipe in a follower dungeon but if you have control and you want to learn, it'd be nice to crank up the difficulty a little bit
I love playing disc Priest, it’s very fun. But I find I don’t have as much fun because I can literally feel my blood pressure and heart rate rise when I queue for a key. Even if that key is well below what my gear should allow,the way other people play makes it incredibly stressful.
Haha, I'll say that this is a pretty good description of what Disc Priest feels like :D
Seen the solo queue brought up quite a lot recently, but with how in demand tanks/healers are they have 0 reason to ever engage with it. Solo queue would be off meta dps sitting in a queue while all the tanks and healers create groups in the group finder with meta specs
That's a good point but it could give additional options with certain criteria or requirements that you can set for the players. May be even have a separate rating for it. You do say that tanks/healers have 0 reason to use it but queuing for keys when you start to push beyond 12s is actually not a pleasant agenda for anyone as it would help all the roles at that point if implemented correctly.
As a casual healer who generally stays in the +7-10 range (old key scale), I find the new scaling and healing profiles increibly frustrating and entirely unrewarding. Any class I play with a Wild Growth type 5 man heal basically feels like shit. I take time to consciously cast at a time where I will hopefully not have to move out of swirls or cleaves - nothing happens. Health bars literally don't even move. They might even go down more as I spent several globals doing that cast instead of 5 individual flash heals (which also don't move health bars).
It honestly feels like I'm doing negative healing most of the time. Nothing is rewarded. Every choice of global is just a choice of pain or more pain. The entire healing design team needs to understand just hiw awful this feels to play. It is truly horrendously bad.
Yeah, unfortunately the design has been moving towards making the game harder and harder for healers in particular. This is frustrating and although there are people like me who welcome challenges, at some point even I think it all went a bit too far, especially for more casual players who are not sweating to min-max every single GCD and push world first keys. Which is most of the players!
I think there is an opportunity to just make all non-major CD healing powerful and fun within its profile (HoT, flash, 5 man spread, etc), but push the punishment back into mana management while bringing back *simple* mana return mechs.
One issue as someone who has played tank but ended up stopping, tanks are in demand in mythic plus but in raids they are the least desired. Healers and casters seem to be in more demand in raids, so as a tank if you enjoy only mythic plus I suppose it could be fine but its something that I dont see mentioned often.
There's only 2 tanks in raids so there are much less spots for them there compared to healers so may be that is the reason. And I don't know, I've tanked in raid only twice and may be it was the wrong bosses on the wrong difficulty but it seemed very boring. They've done a long way and changed a lot of things since then but may be that is something to consider as well.
As a life-long resto druid, the issue with resto is as they offloaded more healing to regrowth, and therefore made us reliant on it, they created a problem in our ramp up style. We are not a reactive healer, we prepare for damage, but now to prepare for damage, you HAVE to have regrowths on full group. It's a casted heal, so 5 casts, globals, then rejuvs to empower those through mastery, efflorescence, swiftmend and then wild growth as damage comes in to heal the group. All of that takes 14 seconds. In the most ideal of conditions. If someone else takes avoidable damage and you have to use swiftmend to heal them, or any heal. You just missed your ramp window, the entire group dies. You get blamed. The ramp up time is now too long and if you are too late and especially if people don't use defensives, it's a wipe. If you react to damage, it takes way too long to heal the group up thanks to this, so you are not prepared for any damage. Some damage events, like 2nd boss in Dawnbreaker, the aoe is very very rough for us, rapid group wide damage, if you don't time that perfectly, everyone is dead. And since the ramp up is sooo long, it's hard to time right if you are not experienced. And I think that's mainly why ressto druid feels bad. Second problem and that's kind of an always present and constant problem rdruid always had. People still don't stand in efflorescence, in fact I still witness many people actively leave it thinking it is bad to stand in things. It's not as bad as it was in Dragonflight where that combo was third of our healing. It's no longer that strong, but it is still an issues when a group has to play around their healer and adjust positions to fit into a circle to survive, it just reinforces a meta that I will just rather take a healer where I don't have to do that to give us freedom of movement. So I think resto druids need a rework, there needs to be a new look on how they work to make them integrate better, or dungeon design needs to change so we are not at mercy of some abilities. Probably little bit of both to find the middle ground. Rebalance throughput of our different tools so regrowth isn't the be all end all spell that it is now. I don't wanna say empore rejuv or efflo more, cause I believe the rejuv spam is a bad gameplay and not fun too and needs to be looked at as well and efflo being too strong will only get us not invited because of the movement reasons and dpsers not knowing how to play around it.
Some pretty good points there that basically summarize why I don't enjoy the resto druid. I kind of liked the complexity in DF of shifting in and out cat from, doing damage, healing, etc but when it comes to the pure aspect of managing your healing, ramping up and then pulling your hairs when people take avoidable damage and you have to quickly top them up - it's just not what you want to play in PUGs. I'd love to see a redesign of some sort to change the game play style a bit.
what key levels are you talking about
i play resto druid too and i agree there are some things to be adressed but unless youre in 14+ you never need to spend 10 globals for regrowths + rejuvs on the whole group. even in 16+ vickman doesnt do a full rejuv ramp on most bosses.
you also got the rampant growth talent which applies regrowth to the 2 lifebloom targets, so you regrowth 3 people with 1 cast, and tank and yourself dont need as much active healing on aoe, especially since you probably stand both in efflo. efflo has 0 cd and can be replaced all the time, and it only heals 3 people anyways so it doesnt matter if 2 people are outside. if you stand in it, the tank and a melee youre getting full value.
if you keep your lifebloom and efflo up, maybe the 3 regrowths you can react to unexpected damage just fine. you can regrowth instead of swiftmend if you wanna safe it for the aoe after
i feel like you can improve some aspects of your gameplay, sounds like you overramp and dont use lifebloom efficiently. unless youre playing 14+ then i would say if you compare healer damage to disci or mistweaver you can see resto druid needs too spend more globals to heal than it should at that level, but its probably still better in that regard than shaman and holy pala
@@iWaZziT Well, there probably need to have classes like that but if you need to write an essay to explain how regrowths work then may be there's a better way to design it....
I don't think we said that druid cannot handle healing or run high keys, it's more of a matter whether or not you like the game play and I'm personally very biased on that but who knows, may be that will change soon as I'll have no other healer left to play and may be I'll start liking it again.
@@iWaZziT I think you are misunderstanding me. Sure I gave the most extreme example in case you are making a boss pull and you have nothing up. Which means 2 lifeblooms, 3 regrowths, that's 5 globals, then rejuvs, efflo down. The problem is you are talking about the 0,1% of gameplay in premade groups when you start mentioning +14s and +16s. That's basically a different game completely. That's not where majority of players are. I am summarizing my experience with pugs this season from early key levels and low ilvls and what I view as weakenesses of the class. You also have to understand, the game and the classes cannot be designed for us the 1% of top tier players. Otherwise we will find ourselves in a dead game and dead season like we currently do. When I play on alts my experience is at a point where I don't want to invite resto druids or disc priests. Cause it means we will most likely not complete the run. I am trying to acknowledge that our class has limitations and is in my opinion poorly designed for the current dungeons and they way they are designed and damage is coming in and too difficult for most people to play. (Basically here Blizzard failed to fullfil what they promised about healing not feeling as spiky, I think there was a lot of content showing the ratio between damage, hps and health pools as all time low, exactly a bad place for resto druids to be in with hots). Also honestly the constant unending spam and upkeep for hots means we have very limited room to catweave nowdays in pug environment. Blizzard keeps buffing Dream of Cenarius and Heart of the Wild in hopes to push that style, I have tried to make it work, but there's just no room for it due to the design of the class. We are too gcd heavy, too spamy and it's not fun or engaging.
Btw thanks for your concern but I got near 100% uptime on lifeblooms. :-) You also don't seem to fully grasp how efflo works. You are forgetting about spreading spring blossoms for a mastery stack or verdancy. So ideally you want people to stand in it to leverage that. I still see it as weakness when we have multiple talents tied to something that requires active participation from other people. Sure you can blame it on people being dumb, but that's pug environment for you sadly. And I am talking this keeps happening in +10s as well.
When I occasionally run with a guild group, it's like playing a different game obviously, and that's why I don't like any arguments mentioning any run above +10. Different skill level, different gameplay, does not represent majority. And is therefore completely irrelevant. Game should not be designed around that.
But I think we can see that if we need to have a big talk about how different synergies work and how uptimes are important and positioning and everything druid has to do to actually heal, it's obviously not in the right place, it's not accessible to most people and it ends up pushing us out. You can clearly see the numbers resto druids are underrepresented and the meta that this feeling created leads to even me not being invited to +10s sometimes because people don't want resto druids. And I wanna believe there are better ways to make the class more engaging to play, to make it not feel like an intense chore and open room varied gameplay and hopefully make people trust us little bit more to keep them alive. (I sure can and I get compliments at the end of most runs for being a great healer, which only hammers down more my experience from my alts see how bad every other healer is.) When we find ourselves in invornment where tanks and healers mostly just clocked out of the game because of the difficulty curve, things need to changes, otherwise noone gets to play.
@@shiftey8 2 Lifeblooms and 3 regrowths are 3 globals. And I wrote that you dont need rejuvs already. I dont use rejuvs up until +13. And yeah thats exactly my point. The game below 14 is different in the way that you dont need a full rejuv ramp and you can play very well while having enough downtime to do a good amount of damage. Resto druid imo does not have real problems below that key level. So unless youre talking specifically about 14-16, i think its a gameplay issue on your side. I dont experience the problems youre having below 14. Below 14 resto druid is fine and its a player not design issue
Im trying to explain to you that because the dungoenpool currently relies on spikehealing, the hots were nerfed and druid was made to a spikehealer using swiftmend and regrowth mostly. Thats the reason hots were nerfed and it does not make us worse at healing the current dungeons, it does make us better. but if your gameplay relies on coating the party in 5 regrowths and 5 rejuvs youre not making use of the current strength of spikehealing gamplay, youre playing suboptimally. There is no "constant unending spam and upkeep for hots". There is no limited room to catweave in a pug environment BELOW 14. I can go into any 10-12 key and do 500k dps overall and im not the best player. Thats why i asked about which key level youre talking about, because the problems dont really arise until 15+ and even then you can still do at least 300-350k overall. and healing is never the issue, you can heal any key just like all other classes, only you will maybe do less damage than a disci or mistweaver at some point, but not less than a shaman or pala
Druid feels gcd heavy because youre not playing efficiently. I said it in my other comment, probably overramping and not playing lifebloom to its potential. you can have 100% uptime but still not play it efficiently. uptime is not all there is. in fact you dont need 100% uptime, you just need to have it on the right target at the right time
How do i dont understand how efflo works? Spring blossoms, efflo baseheal and verdancy all have a 3 target cap. spring blossoms is the only one that can coat 5 people after 2 ticks but i doubt that 1 mastery stack on 2/5 people makes the difference in your healing unless you doing key levels where people should know to stand in efflo. in 10s it doesnt matter if people dont stand in efflo you can heal them effortlessly without. especially if he uses a defensive. if he doesnt stand in efflo AND doesnt use a defensive, why would redesigning resto druid be the solution? he just plays bad so he dies and hopefully learns
But lets suppose youre right, 2 people standing in efflo for maybe 5% healing bonus is what makes your +10 really hard. Is it? There is a million other things that will brick a +10 key before 2 people not standing in efflo does. Not using defensives, not interrupting, not doing mechanics properly. You can make the same argument for "remove all mechanics and defensives because it requires active participation from people and is not suited for a pug environment". That doesnt make the mechanics wrong, that just means the players can improve. And i guarantee you every healer will have something that cannot be used optimally in pugs and relies on coordination, because coordination is the challenge in this game. Shamans have their totem, mistweavers have jadefire stomp, discipline priests cannot interrupt so rely on the group, evokers i dont even need to mention, like think about evokers dude, etc.
Saying anything above 10 being completely irrelevant is kinda hard to be honest dude, i would agree with anything above 14 being irrelevant but up there is still affixes changing at +12 and its intended by blizzard people play these levels and the majority of dedicated players (click on a random twitch streamer chances are hes doing 12-14) do
resto druids are not underrepresented because they are not capable of doing keys well, ESPECIALLY NOT 10s, its because people are meta slaves. when i play an alt key with a random disci priest guy i dont feel hes healing the key better than me, i know he doesnt. people just invite them because a disci priest timed a +18 while a resto druid only has timed a +17 and think it will make a difference in their 10 key when they miss all interrupts and fail half the mechanics.
i can only repeat what i said, There is no "constant unending spam and upkeep for hots". There is no limited room to catweave in a pug environment. druid is not "too gcd heavy, too spamy". i dont have those problems, many others dont. i can go into any 10-12 key and have enough time to catweave for 500k dps while healing the party and any random damage with almost no effort, not spamming involved, just precise play. its you, you can improve your gameplay.
i just think that blizzard is terrible at making ANY mechanic that doesn't come down to be another "healers fault".
I said it somewhere else here in the comments already but it's always the healer's fault mate, always :)
LBNinja7 ❤️
In regards to holy priest. Its what i play. You see im not a player that likes to be shoe horned into playing "meta/best spec" for the season because its easier or op. I like what i like and try to make that work. Holys biggest pain point imo is massive group wide damage since we lack proper aoe healing in a dungeon environment. Thing is.. this hasnt changed since at least Dragonflight so its nothing new. There are only a couple bosses that can cause any real issues for holy that ive seen where you simply can run out of CD's and are stuck scrambling to heal the incoming damage. If dps dont hold defensives to help mitigate some of it... it can be a bad time. It half suprises me that Archon is that popular in M+. Oracle is hands down is the better spec and is the recommended tree across the 'main' guides. You have more versatility and decent CD's to work with through Premonition. Why im half surprised is that Archon is kind of the no brain spec so people will naturally gravitate towards that given the option. Where Oracle you have to understand what your CD's via premonition do and how to use them appropriately throughout the dungeon to get the maximum benefit. Also JB my dude... you almost never hard cast renew as holy and havent had to for a couple xpacks now. With how the tree is now, PoM has a good chance of leaving renew on the person it just healed. So PoM is a top prio heal. Happy healing as holy when you do finally try it :D Just my 2 cents on Holy. But holy definitely could use a bit more tuning because during DF they were cooking... now... maybe its more the dungeon choices in S1? Somethings definitely worse.
The dungeon choices do not play into the strengths of the priest healers in general but lacking utility such as a simple interrupt in a meta where interrupts are basically everything in M+ is simply not fair imo. And if you have two hero talents that are relatively competitive and someone jumps on holy priest if they didn't main it recently, they will always choose the path of least resistance (Archon) even if Oracle is slightly better. I think that part is totally understandable - it feels so much better to have the halos blasting in and out instead of micromanaging the oracle skills, right?
Healing feels bad right now because until you hit +12s your job relies more on DPS using defensives than on you being good. As a tank, none of the changes they announced were implemented right except that they made tanks more reliant on healers. Dmg intake is NOT smoother and tanks do NOT dies less. It's just much harder and it feels terrible.
From +12 and higher, most of a key's success relies on the tank, because one misuse of a defensive at the wrong moment and the tank bricks the key. Nothing the DPS or healer do will change that so they have no agency. This could easily be fixed, or at least helped, with a cheat-death trinket. No affix in a +12 is awesome but going from really hard +12s to easily 2-chested +11s feels really bad.
I mean sub 12 keys are also dependent on tanks playing good right now. There are so many mechanics in almost all of the dungeons where the tank would perish if they don't press their buttons. I probably can't even count the amount of bricked keys sub 10 because a "tank" kept getting one-shotted.
Its like that with all roles, it always depends a lot more on the group than on yourself, youre just one of 5 players. Thats the reason Im not really motivated to push rating further most of it is just spamming dungeons until you find a good group and dont do any mistakes yourself. Even if you could do much higher keys. And even if you theoretically know how to play your class perfectly and the dungeon itself does feel like zero challenge, you can still just fatfinger or get unlucky and then the key is bricked. You can play everything perfectly for 30 mins and then deplete because you mistimed a cd or something.
Because of this I mostly just play alts right now, try to learn the class, maybe clear everything on 12 and when I feel there isnt much to learn anymore I only push keys when I feel like it but dont bother to tryhard it. The actual gameplay and progress for me is learning the class and getting better, not spamming for a good group, unfortunately that point is reached rather quickly on most speccs
I dont pug. I refuse to as a healer. Not having coms is just awful in M+ and honestly is half of the issue. Any dungeons i heal are either through guild, friends or some sort of community... which are out there to join. What is preventing someone who mainly pugs from joining a dungeon community or a guild that fits the content they run? Having others to run with where you know what you are getting into (guild/community) and in coms makes a world of a difference. You will have less problems overall. At least thats what ive found to be the case.
Well, you are blessed being able to do that :)
The community take is interesting but I don't get to play more than a couple of keys with friends and even that is hard to align schedule wise and consistently. So it's the PUG world for me and indeed it has a lot of negatives, requiring quite the resilience to play in it.
@@thelegendbehindthecow I feel you for sure. I guess it would depend on how many keys youre looking to do and how high youre wanting to push as well because that will dramatically dwindle the number of people in your friend circle who will do those too. The community thing is real. I was introduced to one not that long ago that has hundreds of members. Its a good place to have as a fallback in case im not able to run keys earlier in the week like a lot of the people i know like to do. Its not bad. They have some rules so as to prevent toxicity and to promote a respectful environment but people are constantly running all levels of keys. They make a post in discord and youre off running. Something to consider for someone like yourself. Its still 'pugging' but youre less likely to find aholes and theres discord channels to jump into.
@@Sarkli Yeah, that sounds interesting. Feel free to share the links to the community here. May be other people (myself included) will be interested to find out more!
@@thelegendbehindthecow I tried... a couple different ways too and my post keeps getting removed >:( damn youtube. Wow made easy (all one word) is the link. There will be discord info etc on there
@@Sarkli Thank you, that's enough information to get us started even if TH-cam tries to object
I will say this in every video comment section I manage to watch that talks about the kiss/curse affixes.
Get rid of the curse component completely. 10s and under are not for sweats. Encourage people do the mechanic just to help them get big numbers. At 12’s and up, it equalizes, anyway. Get rid of the extra difficulty at 12 to compensate, and maybe the top 1% gets one more key level at the end of a season. Who really cares if they get to +22 instead of +21, really?
The gaps both at +12 and +10s are quite obnoxious, agreed. However, I don't think they will ever get rid of the curse part of affixes. The kiss was gone up until this season so that was a huge win by itself. And it feels really good past 11s when you don't have to deal with them even though they have a positive side as well. They are kind of making it hard for the low keys putting barriers to entry which does not help to get more people into it :(
@ that’s my big reason for wanting the curse gone is because it seems like a barrier to entry that really punishes people at the low end more than the high end (which I think is backwards). I empathize with the interactivity aspect, but I think it’s cognitive overload on people learning a game that I enjoy.
Maybe if they nerfed the curse aspect a bit more (like mobs healing on the healing affix feels sooooo bad), I could get behind leaving the curse aspect? Or maybe the curses just need to be different, not necessarily more or less punishing.
@@Buntijr If they are to remove the curse part, they can remove affixes all together and their argument is that they want to keep it fresh and different every week. So I doubt it will happen, although they already took a step back and removed them after 12.
And yeah, that healing affix also freaking heals bosses... like wtf :D
For the tank role, I think they should put defensive power into them doing damage. Whether it’s mitigation, healing, shielding, cd reduction, or whatever, make it so if they do their dps rotation correctly, they blast damage and survive better. They’ve gone this way for healers and some dps. Seems natural.
Don’t make my pug warrior tanks choose between revenge and ignore pain- they choose revenge every time.
I wonder how many people are on the same boat with you. I don't have many tank friends (as nobody plays that role I guess) but I think all of them are kind of in the trend "Bruh let me do damage" and they don't care that much about tanking :D
Love the pop cast
Thank you! We shall keep popping then :)
I don't understand y they have to make low-level dungeons so easy they could make them a bit more challenging as you level up so u can learn how to tank or heal would even help dps players
I think they are easy intentionally so you can get more people to start playing in this game mode. Controversially though there are so many other decisions that create barriers to entry that it kind of makes it pointless indeed.
@@thelegendbehindthecow I could be a little bit more difficult though, it doesnt have to be complete faceroll
I been tanking since BFA and was leveling an alt brew master stumble on MW and I haven’t had this much fun in a long time and it’s been my main! MW MoH is so much fun in at 10s and this hero talents are a blast! I’m doing 6s on shaman and it’s fun but not this fun I start a disc priest this week and we’ll see!
Good choices over there! Disc is very different and it's one of them specs that have no middle ground. You either love it or you hate it. Let's see on which side of the spectrum you will end up being :)
Im enjoying keys this season. im a parent with a job and gym goer so i do 8 keys every week, around 2500, but this is what i wanted. A season where we had to heal more, tanks made vulnerable. I really think the most unhappy people this season are those whose entire existence is doing keys all day every day.
yes its to much stress to play healer all day now. i find myself wanting to play my dps charcter more than ever
Good point. It's probably not as bad if you are playing more casually but as long as you get a little bit more into it......
And yes, per the other comment, playing DPS does feel like a vacation in comparison to healing :)
I think you get unhappy when you want to push rio and run into problems, say you want to go for 3k or title, and have 3 keys in a row where a tank randomly gets oneshot on a pack from tankbusters, then people tend to say tank nerfs are bad. But the issue is really that people mostly pug with strangers and the key can be bricked by a mistake of a single player, and you only have 1 try per key which can potentially ruin 20-30 mins of good gameplay
@@iWaZziT Agreed and one of the points that I'm trying to communicate across - the game needs to be more pug friendly. It's hard enough by itself on so many different aspects already and when you add mechanics and design that requires next level of coordination and communication, it just becomes too much for the majority of the player base
@@thelegendbehindthecow yeah i mean the problem arises only at a certain key level, and in an infinite scaling system there will always be this key level where it becomes "too much", but for some reason a whole bunch of people who cant do it properly still get into and play these key levels. dont know how to solve this. maybe increase the barrier for doing higher keys, requiring more experience, a certain amount of keys timed until you can progress into the next level?
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The overarching problem is too much defensives. I understand it feels fun for the rest of the group but defensives indirectly destroy the healing role. Defensives force encounter designers to create spiky damage. The only way you can threaten the players is to simultaneously overpower both player defensives and healer output. Only then will a coordinated group be threatened. The trouble are twofold. Healers must have weak healing, otherwise any half good healer will be able to trivialize the content. That makes the healer role not fun. The other problem is that the weak healers will not be able to help an uncoordinated group. More anti fun for the healers. You can be as geared and skilled as you want, but in contrast to the other roles, you will never be able to carry a weak group.
Yeah and I think they kind of acknowledged that but said that defensive pruning is too hard to do right now and players would need those defensives to play in different types of content (like Delves). Very weak arguments if you ask me - fix the game and don't allow different game mode types to spoil the fun for each other - that part at least is not that hard as they've already done it for PvP vs PvE
@@thelegendbehindthecow Problem is they actually doubled down on it in TWW, hero trees added even more defensive creep
@@DanH465 Yeah, I haven't talked on this topic yet but personally I was not fan of the talent trees initially and hero talents, as you say, only made things more complicated. Obviously they are not changing that any time soon but at least they should steer to a direction that will eventually reduce complexity and not the other way around.
@@thelegendbehindthecow problem is its not just something they can do in a mid expansion patch, it would require a group up redesign.
@@DanH465 Yes and it does seem that they are sold out on them right now so we are going down this rabbit hole no matter what. Let's just hope the figure out changes for the better!
I don't really understand what's the issue is with people and Soothing Mist, it's a tool that depending on the build can allow you to bombard a person with single target healing in either in Raid or M+, of course Jade Empowerment has made it slightly obselete in M+ but it still has it's use cases.
Why isn't Peer into Peace's part "Soothing Mist now follows the target of your Enveloping Mist or Vivify..." baked into Soothing Mist, it should be a great QoL.
Legacy of Wisdom, bake it into Sheilun's Gift.
Dancing Mists, Misty Peaks and Rapid diffusion should be baked into one, 2-3 talent point talent or at least just the first 2.
I still don't know why the most versatile healer in the healer rooster, Mistweaver (reminder Mist weaver, jesus i don't know why i have to emphasize this to make my point more valid, it's literally in the name of it) has to have Jade Empowerment and Dance of Chi-Ji as a competing node instead of a passive talent that procs a buff which empowered both Crackling Jade Lighting and Spinning Crane Kick but you only get to it on one of them, makes the, "go back and forth" from melee to range and vise versa so much more interesting gameplay and it's not even broken or anything at all.
And like, why the f is Rising Wind Kick a node Choice with Jadefire Teachings and why is that ratio at 30% + 140% and not like 70% + 100% for Ancient Teachings?
When you spec into master of harmony, Rapid Diffusion (when picked) removes the damage buff from Balanced Stratagem if you cast Rising Sun Kick even though it shouldn't as RSK is a physical spell, likely because it was more convenient to code Rapid Diffuse to proc from your character at the time (and it made sense visually as well) but right now, it causes this conflict, many months in, i have reported this bug and it's still not fixed, and i am fairly certain it's not intended at all given the talents and spell descriptions and their specifications. If you unlearn Rapid Diffusion, the bug does not occur.
Usually tier lists are split between game modes(M+ and raid) and even meta versus class fantasy/design.
Trying to classify healers in a catch-all tier list doesn't really do some specs justice, like priests, druids and prevokers, which have wildly different experiences and meta value depending on what game mode you are talking about.
Take priest for example, disc is obviously meta in M+, but it falls short in raid. Holy is the weakest M+ healer, but it's also the best spot healer in raid. Disc has great class fantasy with voidweaver, but holy is quite "boring" comparatively and both hero talents feel like they have been slapped on in 10 minutes at the last moment and just tuned somewhat competitively so Blizzard can say the spec is technically playable.
Valid, but we do play almost everything almost everywhere so we tried to make an almost extensive tier list as a result :)
@@thelegendbehindthecow Yeah, what I meant was it might have been better to split the tier list up into M+, raid and class fantasy: one bite-sized video per tier list.
I just looked up +5-7 keys in LFG and there were 3 keys up in all of NA. Perfect range for getting some alt gear later in the season. I've never seen M+ this dead. Boy did they ruin their game with the TWW changes.
I usually find plenty of keys up to the +10 range but none of them have tanks. And it only gets worse as the key level goes up. That said though, there's definitely a lot more to be desired right now from the LFG tool and the endless queue times so some changes to help with that will be very welcome!
Make healers ...healers again ...if i need to do dps i make a dps character. -
They kind of, sort of, did as healer dps is irrelevant now. However, you are still dependent on other people using their personal and group defensives in order to succeed which feels really bad in pugs.
That’s what they have done 😂
Ass Opinion: Learning to tank would be easier if there was a proper unit frame or window that showed every mob hitting you and who's about to run off to Narnia and Iron Fist your healer. I play WoW and XIV and I am much more willing to dip my toes into tanking every now and again in XIV, mainly because I know at the barest of minimums I'm doing my job of making sure the enemies are hitting me by that little icon that's telling me "Hey this guy is about to eat your healer, maybe throw a taunt at him".
Every nameplate add on has a feature that changes color when you lose threat by default
One of these days I need to go back to XIV and reach the end game there so I can see those differences :)
The root problem is that Tank and Healers have way too much responsibility in a Key. If they make a mistake, the impact on the group is too severe. Majority of players don't want to take on that responsibility. Just like people in life don't want to have a lot of responsibility.
This gets amplified by DPS player always being able to move the blame to the healer or tank. DPS not doing enough damage and the pull doesn't die before party runs out of defensives? Tank, why did you pull so many mobs.
DPS not interrupting properly? Tank, why did you pull so many casters
DPS not interrupting properly so Tank pulls smaller packs? Tank, why are you pulling so slow
DPS not using defensives properly and die or get one shot? Healer, why did you not heal more or use your cooldowns better
Blizzard has to find a way where the fail of player of a specific role has to have direct impact on what they are supposed to do in a dungeon.
DPS player fails cannot have impact on people dying, at least not to the extend as is. If you don't interrupt properly other people cannot suffer for it. This is destined to create a negative environment. DPS player fails must have direct impact on their own performance. Thus the blame cannot get shifted to other people as easily.
Blizzard also needs to make it more apparent to players that they in fact did fail the mechanic. They have the power to stop people from constantly blaming other players. There is not enough feedback from the game itself for players who are not researching every mechanic.
Combine that with the natural ignorance and instinct of the current main character syndrome generation that it must be other player's fault when fails happen and you have a recipe for disaster.
If the responsibilities get distributed more evenly among the entire party and fails have more direct impact on the roles responsibility, the PUG scene will improve dramatically.
To double-down on that concept, as is, one player can single-handedly ruin the key, but you cannot single-handedly carry the entire key. This feels very bad and is also a huge problem for a pugging scenario.
A really bad tank will brick your key as will a really bad healer. Unfortunately even one really bad DPS can brick your key if they get targeted by certain mechanics and handle them badly which can get other people killed, thus ruining the entire run. Even them dying over and over while not using interrupts significantly slows down the run and with challenger's peril can single-handedly brick the key.
Pair that with the limited information you have about other people when pugging and you feel helpless. Helplessness turns into anger and other negative emotions. Since it's very difficult to deal with that as a human, people will naturally lash out on other people that usually don't deserve to be the target of those emotions. Vicious cycle.
I think incentivise using metrics like parsing in logs (so not just damage or healing done) would be great.
Avoidable damage avoided (or least taken), interrupts, dispels etc. Some favours.tank/healers but is that really a bad thing? Roll one if you want in on the sweet deal - makes lfg a better place.
Could be more crest, chance of piece of loot, valor stones etc.
And do combine with a rework of kick like dispels. Might lead to some macro shenanigans but perhaps give it a short 1-2 second windows, so it's not just spam able.
I don't think they can do anything to fix the toxicity in M+. No matter what the design is, ppl will always find ways to blame others. Some pretty good points and takes in these comments though, thank you!
@@thelegendbehindthecow game has to be overhauled, having different objectives (survive as a tank, keep everyone alive as a healer and deal dmg as a dps) will never work.
When tanks die, they can blame everyone else for dying. When DPS don't deal enough DPS or die, they can blame everyone else right now. When people die, healers can blame everyone else for dying.
If the game had one shared objective aka dealing enough DPS and you would manufacture every role to essentially contribute towards that goal but in different ways, then there is a chance to evolve in the right direction.
Tanks could have checks where if they fail that DMG mitigation check, entire grp gets a debuff that reduces haste / dmg dealt or something that indicates that the tank failed a mechanic because they didn't press their button. No blaming other people possible.
Healer could have a healing absorb check similar to current devour affix. Healer fails mechanic, everyone gets a debuff with the healer indicator.
DPS could have a mini DPS check, or kill adds or whatever. If that failed, everyone gets a DMG down. It has to be clear who failed the mechanic, no questions asked.
Right now you can blame everyone which is bad.
But then we're essentially talking about a different game... :D
Problem 1: should be servers and cross play by language. We type in English and barely 2/4 reply. And I am French saying that.
Problem 2: no voice com, shitty text box. How can Vermintide2 from 2015 from Fatshark in Danmark provide better cohesion experience.
Problem 3: tanks need rear view mirrors on the groups to adapt pacing and not go wipe their face too far ahead on a drinking healer.
Problem 4: deaths are too punishing. There should be a m8 pug and a m8 challenging with then more rewards.
Problem 5: the mechanics have no clarity or vocal roleplay HINTS for what to do. Thus players guess and fail. The orbs in Stonevault is a clear example. We need DBM and even with it it's still unclear. But players want gear above 619 so everyone bangs their skulls on the walls for those who are casual and wing it...
All valid points unfortunately and some of them don't seem to have easy solutions :(
Everybody is sleeping on far seer. I run far seer and don’t even cast healing rain. Let me tell you something about the numbers you can get off on dps.
Cast life bind, ancestral swiftness chain lightening your ass off. If people are using defensives, I can average 400k dps in a good group. Boss dmg with lava burst is pretty nuts too.
You CAN squeeze about 50k dps out with acid rain but it’s not worth casting.
Interesting comment :) Honestly, I haven't looked into those numbers in awhile first, because I'm playing totemic and second, because healer damage is completely irrelevant but back in DF you would cast acid rain even on single target! I guess that's not the case any more.