Yep.. The NSR 250 F3 spec engine has a dry clutch and so does my NS250R HRC bike because you slip the clutch quite a bit when racing especially out of slow corners and the clutch can be toast after a race or a race meeting and its clutch plates are a consumable part. If you have to use a new gasket each time and drop the oil and pull the crank case cover each time it takes longer so why not just have it open to the air and have 5 bolts to undo then swap a clutch pack in minutes??? It makes sense for racing and has no impact on how much BHP the bike produces. Some claim it is 2 or 3bhp in a 70BHP 250cc race bike but I have never seen anyone actually prove it..
I Raced MX professionally for 8 years and I watched this…. Unfortunately lol. It was dyno proven before I was born. Around 1-2% loss. MX bikes come with circle covers specifically for swapping the pack and it adds a minute difference if you’re pulling the entire pack. The number one reason they use them is because of the loss. Wet or dry clutch you can make it extremely easy to swap to the point the difference is irrelevant. Just because YOU never raced anywhere and your z900 never saw 35° a day in its sad life doesn’t mean everyone else is shite.
You're running like what 10w30 in a transmission? You don't change that cooked oil every race? Do you just rely on it leaking and keep it topped off? It's a one use gasket. Are cereal boxes expensive where you live?
@gooklogander7 where are these dyno results? I mean they've been around since before you were born... they should be everywhere. How many bikes can you swap between wet and dry? I'll wait for these results...
@@gooklogander7listen to yourself. you're saying that dry clutches are 1-2% better in power, wet clutches take slightly longer to change, but MX still use wet clutches regardless. has it crossed your mind that they race in dirt? Superkart racers almost all use dry clutches. Horstman tried pushing a wet clutch on them, but it was stupid on a 90+hp 125cc race kart.
Get Your Duc on a rear stand, shift a gear in. Now pull the clutch and turn the rear wheel. It turns very easy, almost like as if You are in neutral. Now do the same with a bike with a wet clutch. The wet clutch needs, compared to the dry clutch, much more force to turn. Means, every shifting slows down the bike, except with a dry clutch. All serious race bikes of Ducati have a dry clutch. To change from wet back to a dry clutch is an easy job on a Ducati
No issues with the dry clutches on my BMW’s or Moto Guzzi, excellent engagement, no noise, 100,000 plus miles. Did Ducati fail to design a good dry clutch? Do Ducati riders not understand how to operate a bike with a dry clutch? I think a wet clutch is a little more user friendly for beginner riders, and easier when doing tight slow speed maneuvers where that friction zone is helpful, but I like dry clutches.
Don't most system that have a seperate oil bath for the clutch recommend less frequent oil changes on the clutch side than the engine side? Meaning the engine causes the shorter interval? For example my 2 strokes have about double the service life for transmission oil changes than a similar 4 stroke dirt bike with shared wet clutch.
I loved my old dry clutch. I pulled up behind a Cabriolet, who had made a last ditch overtake as he couldn't be behind a bike. But at the junction where I was sat behind him, he thought it was his car making the rattling noise. I was laughing so hard in my helmet I almost forgot to go when the light changed.
Older Ducati’s had a dry clutch, desmo valves, short maintenance intervals etc. if you have to ask why you will never understand. Honda, Yamaha, etc. make perfectly good motorcycles you do t have to justify your choice just like I don’t have to justify mine.
mechanical sheering of polymer chains and viscosity breakdown dictate oil change scheduling and that is linked to engine design, some mechanically break down lubricants faster than others and contamination rarely has anything to do with that service interval.
i used to own a GSXR750LTD with a dry clutch only benefit i could see was easy access to swap the plates out otherwise only noticeable difference was the noise
I think there is an argument for two strokes, even just based on swept volume. The number of times I've pulled up on my Ducati and someone let's me know my bearings are failing cannot be counted though, no joke
Dry clutches have their advantages in racing. They can be lighter as without the oil there is more friction between the plates, therefor less plates can be used. I've seen that on TM race karts and other race clutches where they run a few less plates. I have several dry clutch systems and both run less plates than the OEM systems, so marginal gains to be had. Not as robust as the oil reduces the wear rate between plate tabs and basket, noisier (hence being phased out on Ducati exotica) means less suitable for road going bikes.
with some engine clutch there is something to keep the dirt somewhere .. it does not carry them off with the oil, a kind of rotating movement and an intermediate piece is used by it
Dry clutches definitely have the advantage in a race bike, so he’s wrong about the power/faster argument. But like he said they need changing a lot to get this advantage. Hence, on a road bike, there isn’t much point in them
@@dirtygarageguy I agree with you 100% about the dry clutch for average joe on a road bike. No need for them at all. But if the dry clutch gives the bike a 0.1 second a lap advantage in a race situation, they’re going to use it. Which is why they do. And like you said, they don’t care about changing them. It’s like tyres to them.
Every moto GP bike made uses dry clutches All the 250’s, all the 500’s, all the 990’s and so on… Less parasitic drag Easier maintenance, because you do not need to pull side cover to check plates. Sound cool Look cool
@ Parasitic drag. The clutch spins through oil…in a wet clutch. It spins through air in a dry clutch. Not sure what is confusing as air has less drag on a spinning clutch than oil does. Not sure what dry sump pump your referring to? None of my two stroke SP dry clutch bikes have a dry sump for the transmission.
The Moto Morini v-twin 250, 350, 400, 500 and 507cc engines of the 70's & 80's all had non-vented multi-plate dry clutches that didn't make noise and lasted many many thousands of miles. My K2 350 and Camel clutches always performed flawlessly. Eng. Franco Lambertini said they used the dry clutch for easier oil filtration to save costs. However, wish a couple of other things on the little MM were as reliable.....
I haven't read into it but surely a dry clutch engine has less oil than a wet clutch so theres a miniscule weight saving there? The question I have is nearly all cars have them so why don't bikes?
The arguement of power I believe is that in a dry system you can have more friction between the plates reducing the amount of slip and therfor take more power before they slip.
The main reason for a dry clutch on a race bike, as mentioned in the video, is that for racing its a consumable. A dry clutch means its really easy to open it up and swap the clutch plates before every race and it's a fairly quick and painless process for the mechanics. For street purposes... there's really not a reason. For the street you aren't swapping your clutch every week (hopefully), so service convenience isn't a major priority when you're only gonna change it after tens of thousands of miles.
I am now on my ninteenth motorcycle, only four of those have had dry clutches, a 1975 Triumph T160V, two 1980 Moto Guzzi's and a 1980 Benelli 900 Sei. The first three were single plate clutches, the Trident had the same Borg & Beck clutch as the Austin Mini car. The Benelli had a multi-plate clutch, it would rattle, scream when starting to move from a stand still, it would also overheat, so much so that I could smell it. I overcame the clutch problems on the Benelli by adding an extra plain and friction plate, that was good advice from Speedscene in Huddersfield who used to be the Benelli importers.
Having lived with dozens of bikes, the ones I enjoyed most were dry clutch Ducatis. I did all the maintenance myself, replaced clutches and did the desmo shims. Don't buy a Ducati unless you love it. Asian bikes are more logical choices and cheaper to keep...so I'm told.
A wet clutch is spinning in a oil bath. Clutch has to push through oil. Dry clutch jest has to spin through air. Pushing air around. Air is lighter than oil. Nuf said.
And what do you think is the biggest producer of drag in a clutch 🤔🤪 its not oil or air, and second what cools better oil or air across the entire clutch 🤪
Got any proof of what the difference is? Does your clutch ride in oil? Strange that they have an internal oil feed then... what would be the point? You know your oil level drops when you start the bike right?
Very few could ride a 125cc bike hard enough to notice the power loss from oil on the wet clutch. Virtually nobody can ride a 600 or a liter bike hard enough to notice the power loss from a wet clutch. If you're just chasing ALL THE POWER as a little exercise in futility then that's fine but if you genuinely think you need that power then you're overestimating your own abilities to a massive degree
@@dirtygarageguy Matt you know there’s a difference lol. But your unwilling to overlook ultimate design flaws for marginal gains for specific application. You love a good troll also I’ve noticed. I agree with points you make especially when we talk about longevity but the most successful racing bikes in history have had dry clutches and you know why.
I think it would only benefit "power" wise on say something like a 300+HP bike where the clutch is slipping often. You said the oil allows it to slip just that lil bit more so I assume it does grip better technically. But unless ur drag racing a 300hp bike u wouldn't notice or be affected by it.
Totally agree. We have a guy at work who owns several Ducati's and every one of them sounds like the gearbox has collapsed when he goes to pull away in the car park. I've started to think that the reason why he has several Ducati's is because the rest are waiting on clutch packs.
@mazdamaniac4643 that's 🙃 funny it's not just me then it's not a sound that I would apply the term mechanical sympathy too as it is just an adherent ungodly seemingly out of balance at low rev death rattle ... the first time you hear it in person for me was about 2009 Superbike Grand Prix Phillip Island .... talk about give you the heebie jeebies
Why can't an automobile style dry clutch work on a bike? The ones on our semi trucks last over 500k miles pulling 80k lbs with an engine making somewhere around 2000 ft lbs of torque from a 15.5L engine?
Put a bike that can convert from wet clutch to dry clutch and put it on a dyno. That'll tell the story. Or if some Ducati's come with it as an option, get one bike with a wet clutch and an identical bike with a dry clutch and do the dyno test.
You can replace them in minutes and unlike on the Japanese bikes that I love so much clutch packs don't contaminate the oil so you don't even have to use the motorcycle oil.
What's so special with dry clutchs? Cars have used them for years. I can't think of a car I've worked on or driven that had a wet clutch and I've been driving/riding since the early 1970's.
I got about 150,000 k's out of my R1 clutch before I changed it. Didn't really need to change it so I kept the old one just in case I need it. Guessing I won't need it anytime soon.
ever put automotive oil in your wet clutch bike? the clutch then slips. ducati needed better oil because their engines were failing. the answer was better oil and to get their clutch out of the better oil. thats the answer. lot of bike have wet clutches and dry sumps, so thats not the answer. a lot of bikes now are using seperate oil for the engine and wet clutch/gearbox, this is also solves the problem that ducati solved but doesn't end in burnt clutches all the time.
Can you spot a logical error/fallacy in the assumption that if manufacturer A and B have the same oil change intervals, then the oils must be equally dirty at the time of dumping it?
While I enjoy the theatre of the dry clutch in my Hypermotard 1100 EVO SP, it's a bit shit and deafening and one bike once in my life is enough. Never again.
The fly wheel and clutch system generates static eclectic charges for the spark. Like and old twin hit and mis the fly wheel you put a belt on the gears are on the other side with oil I think don't know is this a 350 orc327. :lis this one of them vehicular things but dirt bikes dont need a battery even when you add the battery the charge system like one them Altner
Still doesn't explain why Ducati advocated them for so long. If just these reasons we're given, and can be so easily debunked, then there must be other beneficial properties.
I think they are so noisy you don't need a loud exhaust system on a dry clutch Ducati you can hear the dry clutch rattle from 200 metres and l didn't until now that they didn't last that long
I take it, that there's no advantage for a dry clutch over a wet clutch in racing condition but a flawed design for street bikes....is that your point Matt ?
I've sold BMW & Triumph, done C grade (or right at bottom of B 😂) on 954rr, tested a lot 🤔... but my 2012 Benelli TNT R160 triple has a dry slipper clutch & it is a superior set up on a track. The triple cylinder engine braking and the slipper allow a brutal deceleration (+Brembos/massive wave discs,) that just isn't there in a big 4. The rear just doesn't lock up 🫨 *dry slipper* 💅🏍 the basket has been replaced but before that, the clutch was restacked & so life extended. Still, she is a stupid commuter 😪
Cars typically have much larger diameter clutches (outside of motorsport, where replacing the clutch after every race weekend is typical, and exotic motorsport-derived cars), though, which creates more surface area for cooling. And even then, many DCT designs use wet clutches because they tolerate more slip, despite higher maintenance requirements. (IIRC, 40,000 mile intervals for the VW wet clutch DCTs in the US, versus lifetime for the one dry clutch that we got. Also, that shows what the impact of a wet clutch is on oil change interval - the engine's effects on the oil are such that it needs to be changed long before the clutch's effects become an issue.) Of course, car DCTs are sold to people who expect the creep behavior of a torque converter, and they also have significant clutch slip on every shift when shifting at their fastest speed, so they'll likely experience more slippage than a manual (or even a motorcycle DCT). Also, the clutch packs and band brakes in conventional torque converter automatic transmissions are wet.
Well.... If you are talking about manual transmissions, single plate clutches are dry. But if we are talking about automatic gearboxes that have the same clutch pack design as a motorcycle (usually 3 or 4 clutch packs in a single transmission) they are all wet. And even most dct gearboxes have wet clutches,at least the ones that need to deal with some meaningful amount of power. You can find some dry clutch dcts on lower spec cars but most of the ones i know about are wet. Getrag,zf and borgwarner make the majority of their automatic/dct gearboxes with wet clutch packs. Every american automatic gearbox I've heard about has a wet clutch.
@@TheCeroveci remember ford had a dry dct and it would have all kinds of issues. Car stalling at stop and go, lots of noise, ect. Ford also did its best to not fix it under warranty.
My mate Dell Races Buses and rides a "Harley Davidson" basically he's an expert. He said "Wet Clutch" is erosion identical to an angle grinder disk. A dry clutch is abrasion like grazing you Knee Matt. He said abrasion is hotter because that's how they used to braze metal in 1980s before oxygen was invented. I asked if it was friction welding he said no because abrasion is the strong nuclear force and friction is weak like gravity, Matt
Realistically, there probably is no point, advantages and disadvantages, and so on. Depends on how far you delve into it. I personally couldn't live with the rattle, they're cool to look at though. And im sure the Honda NSR 250 sp had a dry clutch. They come up on ebay for sale every so often. I dont know if any of the other manufacturers did this also. Just Ducati and dry clutch seem to go hand in hand.
@dirtygarageguy I've not had a clutch last more than 16 minutes... All joking aside, I know where you're coming from really, for us normies on the road, not racing, they're pointless and we won't ever see the advantage. I almost bought a Monster, but it was the sheer amount of maintenance which would soon keep coming round, which put me off.
ALL wet clutch bikes with the same oil for the gears all need an oil change every 3500 miles or so. manufacture specs are trash. its been well known. my ninja needs an oil change every 2000 to 2500 miles. To be clear its not from the clutch so much as it is an engine that has the same oil for the crank assembly that also oils the trans gears. gears KILL oil. The rocket is a dry sump oil system with a wet clutch. You really did not answer your question with anything other than control... so why are dry clutch bikes NOT winning every race? The answer is only ONE thing, back in the day clutches on race bikes failed FAST and it was easier and cheaper to make this system for speed and cost of maintenance for race applications because oil back then is NOT what it is today! If you wanted maximum clutch on a race back back in the day that lasted an entire race, it was dry.
The nice thing about Ducati dry clutches is, you can change them in a parking lot of a supermarket! The problem is, you sometimes have to!
Haha so true. BMW as well. I hated them. Crappy feel
Dry clutches so you can't hear the big end going.
[edit] spelling mistake
Yep.. The NSR 250 F3 spec engine has a dry clutch and so does my NS250R HRC bike because you slip the clutch quite a bit when racing especially out of slow corners and the clutch can be toast after a race or a race meeting and its clutch plates are a consumable part. If you have to use a new gasket each time and drop the oil and pull the crank case cover each time it takes longer so why not just have it open to the air and have 5 bolts to undo then swap a clutch pack in minutes??? It makes sense for racing and has no impact on how much BHP the bike produces. Some claim it is 2 or 3bhp in a 70BHP 250cc race bike but I have never seen anyone actually prove it..
I Raced MX professionally for 8 years and I watched this…. Unfortunately lol. It was dyno proven before I was born. Around 1-2% loss. MX bikes come with circle covers specifically for swapping the pack and it adds a minute difference if you’re pulling the entire pack.
The number one reason they use them is because of the loss. Wet or dry clutch you can make it extremely easy to swap to the point the difference is irrelevant. Just because YOU never raced anywhere and your z900 never saw 35° a day in its sad life doesn’t mean everyone else is shite.
You're running like what 10w30 in a transmission? You don't change that cooked oil every race? Do you just rely on it leaking and keep it topped off? It's a one use gasket. Are cereal boxes expensive where you live?
Where are these dyno results?
@gooklogander7 where are these dyno results? I mean they've been around since before you were born... they should be everywhere. How many bikes can you swap between wet and dry? I'll wait for these results...
@@gooklogander7listen to yourself. you're saying that dry clutches are 1-2% better in power, wet clutches take slightly longer to change, but MX still use wet clutches regardless. has it crossed your mind that they race in dirt? Superkart racers almost all use dry clutches. Horstman tried pushing a wet clutch on them, but it was stupid on a 90+hp 125cc race kart.
That did make sense thanks Matt.
Agreed.... there is no point.
I still love my single sided swing arm and 'bag of spanners' clutch.
I am not riding bikes out of practicality.
YMMV
LOUD clutches SAVE LIVES ! (I should have bought that T-shirt)
This is the kind of video I subscribed for. Good stuff Matt.
Lubricated rear tyre on old British bikes was a feature not a fault!
Harleys still have this feature!
Even Ducati don't believe in it anymore, their new bikes have wet clutches.
Their higher performance bikes still have dry clutches as standard, for example the Multistrada RS.
For now...
@@dirtygarageguy they’re also available on most models as a £3k option, they’ll keep making them as long as people keep buying them 😂
Get Your Duc on a rear stand, shift a gear in. Now pull the clutch and turn the rear wheel. It turns very easy, almost like as if You are in neutral. Now do the same with a bike with a wet clutch. The wet clutch needs, compared to the dry clutch, much more force to turn. Means, every shifting slows down the bike, except with a dry clutch. All serious race bikes of Ducati have a dry clutch. To change from wet back to a dry clutch is an easy job on a Ducati
@larsfriese9857 much more force to turn, explain, in detail.
I've heard there's a small loss of power moving a wet clutch through the oil. Important in racing, not important on the street.
No issues with the dry clutches on my BMW’s or Moto Guzzi, excellent engagement, no noise, 100,000 plus miles. Did Ducati fail to design a good dry clutch? Do Ducati riders not understand how to operate a bike with a dry clutch? I think a wet clutch is a little more user friendly for beginner riders, and easier when doing tight slow speed maneuvers where that friction zone is helpful, but I like dry clutches.
Don't most system that have a seperate oil bath for the clutch recommend less frequent oil changes on the clutch side than the engine side? Meaning the engine causes the shorter interval? For example my 2 strokes have about double the service life for transmission oil changes than a similar 4 stroke dirt bike with shared wet clutch.
most roadgoing bikes have shared engine and transmission oil
I like the transitions without interrupting speech
Looks and sounds cooler. Don't need another reason.
I loved my old dry clutch. I pulled up behind a Cabriolet, who had made a last ditch overtake as he couldn't be behind a bike. But at the junction where I was sat behind him, he thought it was his car making the rattling noise. I was laughing so hard in my helmet I almost forgot to go when the light changed.
Sounds cooler? My guy it's a tin can with rocks rattling around in it. It's as sophisticated of a sound as marbles in a fucking bucket.
@@CutACrow Nonsense.
@@timgilfedderhonestly dry clutches 1, sound bloody awful and 2, they don't even need to rattle anyway.
They just sound broken 😂😂
Older Ducati’s had a dry clutch, desmo valves, short maintenance intervals etc. if you have to ask why you will never understand. Honda, Yamaha, etc. make perfectly good motorcycles you do t have to justify your choice just like I don’t have to justify mine.
Back in the day (the Seventies 👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻) Honda four cylinder bikes used to have a 1,500 mile oil change interval.
Everyone knows wet is always better than dry !
🫢
mechanical sheering of polymer chains and viscosity breakdown dictate oil change scheduling and that is linked to engine design, some mechanically break down lubricants faster than others and contamination rarely has anything to do with that service interval.
That was the point.
i used to own a GSXR750LTD with a dry clutch only benefit i could see was easy access to swap the plates out otherwise only noticeable difference was the noise
Now knowing how stupid dry clutches are outside of racetracks the next time i hear someone having one for road use is an idiot
I think there is an argument for two strokes, even just based on swept volume. The number of times I've pulled up on my Ducati and someone let's me know my bearings are failing cannot be counted though, no joke
I have a dry hump system, he's a Blue Heeler.
This is nice. I do miss all the technical videos you make. Cheers.
Dry clutches have their advantages in racing. They can be lighter as without the oil there is more friction between the plates, therefor less plates can be used. I've seen that on TM race karts and other race clutches where they run a few less plates. I have several dry clutch systems and both run less plates than the OEM systems, so marginal gains to be had.
Not as robust as the oil reduces the wear rate between plate tabs and basket, noisier (hence being phased out on Ducati exotica) means less suitable for road going bikes.
with some engine clutch there is something to keep the dirt somewhere .. it does not carry them off with the oil, a kind of rotating movement and an intermediate piece is used by it
A normal video, nice
Not one MotoGP manufacturer in the current crop run a wet clutch. If wet clutches were an advantage they would use them, no question about it
Dry clutches definitely have the advantage in a race bike, so he’s wrong about the power/faster argument. But like he said they need changing a lot to get this advantage. Hence, on a road bike, there isn’t much point in them
Clearly you didn't listen to what I said. The whole thing about you're not a racer, racing needs a clutch once... they don't care about wear...
Tell me what is wrong about the power/faster argument? They run nitrogen in their tyres, is that so it can be faster? Not everything is about faster.
@@dirtygarageguy I agree with you 100% about the dry clutch for average joe on a road bike. No need for them at all. But if the dry clutch gives the bike a 0.1 second a lap advantage in a race situation, they’re going to use it. Which is why they do. And like you said, they don’t care about changing them. It’s like tyres to them.
@Tig_Weldor prove to me anything you've said...
Every moto GP bike made uses dry clutches
All the 250’s, all the 500’s, all the 990’s and so on…
Less parasitic drag
Easier maintenance, because you do not need to pull side cover to check plates.
Sound cool
Look cool
Correct!!
Parasitic drag of the oil? Explain. Then once you think you know what the answer think about that vs an extra oil pump of the dry sump system.
@
Parasitic drag.
The clutch spins through oil…in a wet clutch. It spins through air in a dry clutch. Not sure what is confusing as air has less drag on a spinning clutch than oil does.
Not sure what dry sump pump your referring to? None of my two stroke SP dry clutch bikes have a dry sump for the transmission.
The Moto Morini v-twin 250, 350, 400, 500 and 507cc engines of the 70's & 80's all had non-vented multi-plate dry clutches that didn't make noise and lasted many many thousands of miles. My K2 350 and Camel clutches always performed flawlessly. Eng. Franco Lambertini said they used the dry clutch for easier oil filtration to save costs. However, wish a couple of other things on the little MM were as reliable.....
I haven't read into it but surely a dry clutch engine has less oil than a wet clutch so theres a miniscule weight saving there? The question I have is nearly all cars have them so why don't bikes?
I’ve got 22000 mile on my 1098 just changed my basket the weekend looked the same as that one
Did it start slipping? Or just being proactive?
@ no just really nosy and binding a bit
@@blowduke I recently change my clutch basket and plates on my 748 for same reason, 23000 miles.
The arguement of power I believe is that in a dry system you can have more friction between the plates reducing the amount of slip and therfor take more power before they slip.
But you also lose power through the dry sump pump. Which do you think is the greater loss? I have graphs. Lol
@dirtygarageguy dry sump? Im talking dry clutch not oil system
The main reason for a dry clutch on a race bike, as mentioned in the video, is that for racing its a consumable. A dry clutch means its really easy to open it up and swap the clutch plates before every race and it's a fairly quick and painless process for the mechanics. For street purposes... there's really not a reason. For the street you aren't swapping your clutch every week (hopefully), so service convenience isn't a major priority when you're only gonna change it after tens of thousands of miles.
I am now on my ninteenth motorcycle, only four of those have had dry clutches, a 1975 Triumph T160V, two 1980 Moto Guzzi's and a 1980 Benelli 900 Sei. The first three were single plate clutches, the Trident had the same Borg & Beck clutch as the Austin Mini car. The Benelli had a multi-plate clutch, it would rattle, scream when starting to move from a stand still, it would also overheat, so much so that I could smell it. I overcame the clutch problems on the Benelli by adding an extra plain and friction plate, that was good advice from Speedscene in Huddersfield who used to be the Benelli importers.
2 vids in one day? and with whiteboard vid! thx a lot
Having lived with dozens of bikes, the ones I enjoyed most were dry clutch Ducatis. I did all the maintenance myself, replaced clutches and did the desmo shims. Don't buy a Ducati unless you love it. Asian bikes are more logical choices and cheaper to keep...so I'm told.
A wet clutch is spinning in a oil bath. Clutch has to push through oil. Dry clutch jest has to spin through air. Pushing air around. Air is lighter than oil. Nuf said.
And what do you think is the biggest producer of drag in a clutch 🤔🤪 its not oil or air, and second what cools better oil or air across the entire clutch 🤪
Got any proof of what the difference is? Does your clutch ride in oil? Strange that they have an internal oil feed then... what would be the point?
You know your oil level drops when you start the bike right?
Very few could ride a 125cc bike hard enough to notice the power loss from oil on the wet clutch. Virtually nobody can ride a 600 or a liter bike hard enough to notice the power loss from a wet clutch.
If you're just chasing ALL THE POWER as a little exercise in futility then that's fine but if you genuinely think you need that power then you're overestimating your own abilities to a massive degree
@@dirtygarageguy Matt you know there’s a difference lol. But your unwilling to overlook ultimate design flaws for marginal gains for specific application. You love a good troll also I’ve noticed. I agree with points you make especially when we talk about longevity but the most successful racing bikes in history have had dry clutches and you know why.
I like dry clutches sound, feel, and looks. Easy to work on. Clutch life depends on who, and how it gets used.
You mean they last a bit longer if you're a fanny.
I think it would only benefit "power" wise on say something like a 300+HP bike where the clutch is slipping often. You said the oil allows it to slip just that lil bit more so I assume it does grip better technically. But unless ur drag racing a 300hp bike u wouldn't notice or be affected by it.
Can you make a video on MotoGp seamless transmissions?
The first time A mechanically minded person here's one of these it is an atrocity
Totally agree.
We have a guy at work who owns several Ducati's and every one of them sounds like the gearbox has collapsed when he goes to pull away in the car park.
I've started to think that the reason why he has several Ducati's is because the rest are waiting on clutch packs.
@mazdamaniac4643 that's 🙃 funny it's not just me then it's not a sound that I would apply the term mechanical sympathy too as it is just an adherent ungodly seemingly out of balance at low rev death rattle ... the first time you hear it in person for me was about 2009 Superbike Grand Prix Phillip Island .... talk about give you the heebie jeebies
Why can't an automobile style dry clutch work on a bike? The ones on our semi trucks last over 500k miles pulling 80k lbs with an engine making somewhere around 2000 ft lbs of torque from a 15.5L engine?
Have you seen the size of them?
somehow cars have dry clutches and they're fine, never changed clutch on mine. And dry clutches can handle more torque, it's physics.
‘Cause it looks cool!
The only advantage I see is being able to run on car oil, which ought to be helpful.
Something tells me they don't though...
Put a bike that can convert from wet clutch to dry clutch and put it on a dyno. That'll tell the story. Or if some Ducati's come with it as an option, get one bike with a wet clutch and an identical bike with a dry clutch and do the dyno test.
Some kinda chalk pen...? I love that.
You can replace them in minutes and unlike on the Japanese bikes that I love so much clutch packs don't contaminate the oil so you don't even have to use the motorcycle oil.
Watch the video...
What's so special with dry clutchs? Cars have used them for years. I can't think of a car I've worked on or driven that had a wet clutch and I've been driving/riding since the early 1970's.
I mean, who made this clutch.... IT'S DRY
Always good to hear about racing from someone who’s done one trackday in their life 😂
Only one, you sure about that?
@ well, having seen that photo of you on track, I hope for you sake it’s only one 😂
What do you say to people who are napoleon war experts, they were never there so shut up?
If you're going to take the piss, do a better job...
How about you come on the livestream so you can do some real damage, or are you too much of a coward?
If you have ever heard a tz750 tick over, that's why you have one
I got about 150,000 k's out of my R1 clutch before I changed it. Didn't really need to change it so I kept the old one just in case I need it. Guessing I won't need it anytime soon.
This is all very well, but you forgot one thing:
Massimo Tamburini.
What do they sound like?
BMW also use dry clutches, on some models.
Blackboard videos ftw.
Clearly and quickly explained. 👍👍👍
Planned Obsolescence. Thats it. Why would Ducati want to build a bike to last when they can just infinitely charge you for clutch service.
And that's why it's in racing, and why ducati are moving away from them on road bikes...
I hope you do more videos like this and less shit talking/reaction videos
Because you've said that, no. More shit talking.
It’s just the sound.
So yes, also weight... less oil = less total weight. But that would only be minimal and really only useful for racing.
Ah but then an extra pump...
@@dirtygarageguywhat extra pump?
Dry sump have an extra pump...
@@dirtygarageguy dry sump has other advantages but is a greater parasitic loss than the drag loss of the wet clutch?
Yes, yes it is. What benefits is a dry sump?
I miss the days of the whiteboard…
And Jesus statue!
Please sort this matt
This is the white board...
Can we cerakote the jesus statue whilst detailing the process on a board the colour of your choosing?
ever put automotive oil in your wet clutch bike? the clutch then slips. ducati needed better oil because their engines were failing. the answer was better oil and to get their clutch out of the better oil. thats the answer. lot of bike have wet clutches and dry sumps, so thats not the answer. a lot of bikes now are using seperate oil for the engine and wet clutch/gearbox, this is also solves the problem that ducati solved but doesn't end in burnt clutches all the time.
Can you spot a logical error/fallacy in the assumption that if manufacturer A and B have the same oil change intervals, then the oils must be equally dirty at the time of dumping it?
No, because that wasn't the point. The point is that any contamination is a non-issue.
Wait, so street ducati's have wet sumps, so there's no point to dry clutches then
KTM have dry sump and wet clutch, that not a issue
Great video, enjoyed this
While I enjoy the theatre of the dry clutch in my Hypermotard 1100 EVO SP, it's a bit shit and deafening and one bike once in my life is enough. Never again.
I own a bmw r100rs its clutch is like a car,have to say its the best bike clutch ive tried
The fly wheel and clutch system generates static eclectic charges for the spark. Like and old twin hit and mis the fly wheel you put a belt on the gears are on the other side with oil I think don't know is this a 350 orc327. :lis this one of them vehicular things but dirt bikes dont need a battery even when you add the battery the charge system like one them Altner
Still doesn't explain why Ducati advocated them for so long. If just these reasons we're given, and can be so easily debunked, then there must be other beneficial properties.
Dry clutches are a pig on a road bike in stop start traffic on a hot day ...
Kawasaki zx10 ARRH
Was a nice video. Thanks.
We all know the Italians like it dry 😂😂
Miss the videos like this,
One of the GSXR750's had a dry clutch.
Thanks Matt I now understand 👍
I think they are so noisy you don't need a loud exhaust system on a dry clutch Ducati you can hear the dry clutch rattle from 200 metres and l didn't until now that they didn't last that long
I like my own comments 👍
Because every Duke rider loves a rattle 🤣🤣🤣
Dont some Harleys have dry clutches??? 🤔
I take it, that there's no advantage for a dry clutch over a wet clutch in racing condition but a flawed design for street bikes....is that your point Matt ?
Yeah...
It not an advantage, it's a disadvantage.
Is this a manufacturers attempt to boost up sales?
I've sold BMW & Triumph, done C grade (or right at bottom of B 😂) on 954rr, tested a lot 🤔... but my 2012 Benelli TNT R160 triple has a dry slipper clutch & it is a superior set up on a track. The triple cylinder engine braking and the slipper allow a brutal deceleration (+Brembos/massive wave discs,) that just isn't there in a big 4. The rear just doesn't lock up 🫨 *dry slipper* 💅🏍 the basket has been replaced but before that, the clutch was restacked & so life extended. Still, she is a stupid commuter 😪
Yes, of course, that's why all cars have wet clutches. Oh wait....
Cars typically have much larger diameter clutches (outside of motorsport, where replacing the clutch after every race weekend is typical, and exotic motorsport-derived cars), though, which creates more surface area for cooling.
And even then, many DCT designs use wet clutches because they tolerate more slip, despite higher maintenance requirements. (IIRC, 40,000 mile intervals for the VW wet clutch DCTs in the US, versus lifetime for the one dry clutch that we got. Also, that shows what the impact of a wet clutch is on oil change interval - the engine's effects on the oil are such that it needs to be changed long before the clutch's effects become an issue.) Of course, car DCTs are sold to people who expect the creep behavior of a torque converter, and they also have significant clutch slip on every shift when shifting at their fastest speed, so they'll likely experience more slippage than a manual (or even a motorcycle DCT).
Also, the clutch packs and band brakes in conventional torque converter automatic transmissions are wet.
Cars also have chains, handle bars, swing arms and 2 wheels... oh wait... stop eating crayons.
Well.... If you are talking about manual transmissions, single plate clutches are dry.
But if we are talking about automatic gearboxes that have the same clutch pack design as a motorcycle (usually 3 or 4 clutch packs in a single transmission) they are all wet. And even most dct gearboxes have wet clutches,at least the ones that need to deal with some meaningful amount of power. You can find some dry clutch dcts on lower spec cars but most of the ones i know about are wet. Getrag,zf and borgwarner make the majority of their automatic/dct gearboxes with wet clutch packs. Every american automatic gearbox I've heard about has a wet clutch.
@@TheCeroveci remember ford had a dry dct and it would have all kinds of issues. Car stalling at stop and go, lots of noise, ect. Ford also did its best to not fix it under warranty.
Cuz racecoir
My mate Dell Races Buses and rides a "Harley Davidson" basically he's an expert. He said "Wet Clutch" is erosion identical to an angle grinder disk.
A dry clutch is abrasion like grazing you Knee Matt. He said abrasion is hotter because that's how they used to braze metal in 1980s before oxygen was invented. I asked if it was friction welding he said no because abrasion is the strong nuclear force and friction is weak like gravity, Matt
I think your mate needs to lay off the bongs.
@@r1learner178 🤣Good reply
junk is what they are.
Wh0)s winning motogp dry clutch ducati
All of them have dry clutches...
Ducati pen!
Nice vid
Hard !
Plastic edge !
I think you missed out some words from "It ain't hard, is it?". But you knew that already.
Realistically, there probably is no point, advantages and disadvantages, and so on. Depends on how far you delve into it.
I personally couldn't live with the rattle, they're cool to look at though.
And im sure the Honda NSR 250 sp had a dry clutch. They come up on ebay for sale every so often.
I dont know if any of the other manufacturers did this also. Just Ducati and dry clutch seem to go hand in hand.
There's a clear disadvantage. Do you change your entire clutch every 16k miles?
@dirtygarageguy I've not had a clutch last more than 16 minutes...
All joking aside, I know where you're coming from really, for us normies on the road, not racing, they're pointless and we won't ever see the advantage.
I almost bought a Monster, but it was the sheer amount of maintenance which would soon keep coming round, which put me off.
ALL wet clutch bikes with the same oil for the gears all need an oil change every 3500 miles or so. manufacture specs are trash. its been well known. my ninja needs an oil change every 2000 to 2500 miles. To be clear its not from the clutch so much as it is an engine that has the same oil for the crank assembly that also oils the trans gears. gears KILL oil. The rocket is a dry sump oil system with a wet clutch. You really did not answer your question with anything other than control... so why are dry clutch bikes NOT winning every race? The answer is only ONE thing, back in the day clutches on race bikes failed FAST and it was easier and cheaper to make this system for speed and cost of maintenance for race applications because oil back then is NOT what it is today! If you wanted maximum clutch on a race back back in the day that lasted an entire race, it was dry.