Can Copper Weld into Steel Damascus?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 30 พ.ค. 2022
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Alec Steele Blacksmith 2022 - บันเทิง
it's brazing - technically once you make your steel boat, so long as the opening is at the top, you can fully melt the copper and let it cool. The copper as a liquid will fill every crevice and void without the need to hit it (so use copper shims in the final thickness you want from the start). You can also make patterns in the copper by gouging the steel before melting it in place (giving you lines or waves of copper).
After reading this, I no longer feel the need to watch the video 😂
After reading this I realized I'm subscribed to Tyrell Knife Works. This process isn't new, it's been done.
@@gatekeeper5418 But it's not about being a new process, it's about Alec exploring something that is new to him.
I feel it's similar to 80's horror movies. Different iterations and representation of a similar concept. But everyone loves those cheesy ass movies 😆
@@gatekeeper5418 this would technically be a version of modern mokume gane and since it uses the original process to create mokme gane (forging a hot billet of dissimilar metals into a laminate using hammers and a non temperature controlled furnace) the process is well out of copyrightable phase thus literally anyone can do this. (current copyright law only protects the life of the orginal inventor plus 70 years(thank disney co for this LUL), as the process used to make this is the mokume gane process it's not uniqe or original to Tyrell Knife Works and thus only subject to the original copyright which would for copper-steel bonding actually belong to Tiffany co if anyone from the modern era from their experiments in the 1870's which are also out of copyright and yes one of the attempted laminates was steel to copper which succeeded) any and all copyright or originality claims towards mokume gane have failed in the modern court system and most companies try to trick people into settling out of court. side note this is also why Alec was able to try to make titanium damascus without worrying about getting sued as he was using traditional methods to do so(which are also ancient in origin and thus public domain.)
Technically soldering. Brazing requires the use of brass based alloys on dissimilar metals. It’s a sub division of soldering.
Alec I dare you to make a sword without any power tools
OMGGG YESSS🤩🤩🤩🤩🤩🤩🤩
That's definitely what I'm interested in seeing.
Nice to see you again.
Anyone keeping track of this request?
Relatively easy for Alec to knock up I bet but would be a good videl
He did it four years ago with his 8 part "Back to Basics" series, though that was just a small knife.
I've seen a few of these non-ferrous metal damascus videos, and something I have not seen, is attempting to increase the melt temperature of the copper, by alloying it first. IIRC Chromium+ Niobium can increase the melt temperature of the copper, and it might not lose it's coppery luster.
I ... don't think you need much maybe 5% by weight of each? But... like I'm no metallurgist, so... YMMV!
(Might be something worth looking up.)
If you alloy the copper with Chromium and Niobium it no longer would be copper. It would be a Bronze or brass like compound. I’m not a professional but I have taken some college courses in metallurgy.
@@tjboylan20 well, I'm fairly certain bronze and brass are specific copper alloys, and as such you could only call what OP mentioned a copper alloy, or potentially a different name if it has a specific one.
ive used cupronickel to good effect. it has been my go to choice since about 2019
SuccesFully alloy it with ~10% silver and ~3% palladium and you got silver palladium copper which melts at ~1430°c and will annihilate your savings if you buy more than some grams
I meant ~30% palladium....
So in a former life we used explosively welded stainless steel and copper to make heat exchangers…
you pack the billets of stainless and copper in high explosive and set it off and the high pressures fuses the dissimilar metals together.
The bond was tight enough to be leak tight to superfluid helium.
I wonder if that method would work with mokuTi or titanum mokumegane I'd immagine there's plenty of pressure and no atmosphere to oxidize the titanium rapidly and from an engineering perspective should work provided the explosive operated at sufficient pressures rapidly enough.
Quick google search found a supplier doing titanium clad steel made by explosive welding.
Course it’s not really the same as a Damascus like process..
It’s a cool process though and it helped us eliminate a tricky joint (if I remember correctly - it was a while ago now)
Cody's Lab did this
I happen to work in a factory that produces heat exchangers and we do the exact same thing but without explosions lol
When I did mokume I dipped the metal into barrier flux, bound them all together in a stack and brought them up to temperature with a tort in a darkened room. As soon as I noticed any indication of that gooeyness around the copper edges I would remove the torch and give it a slight tap between two very flat surfaces. Rinse and repeat a couple times and then treat it like a Billet of material as normal
Is there a website I can check out or something? That sounds pretty sweet
Quick answer: yes.
Copper is a problem contaminant in steel recycling because it's virtually impossible to separate once its been incorporated. Copper in steel generally follows Hume Rotheroy rules which strongly suggests the ability to form solid solutions. Unfortunately, the peoperties of Copper in steel tend to be undesirable. Nickle is similar, but gives better corrosion properties than copper without sacraficing microstructural integrity as much.
You'll need to be wary of the fact that martinsitic phases can't be generated in nonferrous alloys, so any form of heating will soften the supplemental metal. To retain blade strength it may be best to peen the edge instead of relying exclusively on heat treating.
With the Dark Steele Color and the Copper "vein" it would be a perfect knife, if you put a Handle out of Some sort of Dark Wood on it it would look awesome
Vein; that's it! Now do it with gold!
@@DrewskisBrews the poor man’s gold is brass I’ll try it with brass
Let's see a bog oak dagger
@@tjboylan20 see
Ok
6:21 That's exactly what I was afraid would happen. That molten copper squirting across the shop is extremely dangerous. But I guess you can't make anything cool with some third degree burns...
That would make for a great watch dial. No strength needed, all visual splendor.
There have been a fair few of copper dial watches, but I don't know of any with this combo. They did a few with damascus in the bracelets, but not ina dial. Could be a winner!
One incredible idea I heard for the mix of Mokume-Gane (multiple different non-ferrous metals forged together like damascus) with steel was to make a knife or sword with a steel edge embedded into a Mokume-Gane jacket. You can then grind and etch them so that it looks like the steel is emerging from a wood grain or any other pattern. SUPER pretty
Bit of a misnomer here any dissimilar metals forged together qualify as mokume gane adding ferrous metals just makes modern mokume gane instead of ancient. Technically the laminating technique used to make katanas back in the day would also qualify as low(core) and high(edge) carbon steel are dissimilar. It's the entire reason that a patent on "damascus" steel forging techniques is indefensible and cannot be used in us courts due to the technique already existing.
I think what you'd like in more precise terms is traditional nickle/copper mokume backing on a blade steel edge and that's very doable but also VERY expensive. The blade steel would already have to be mostly drawn out same with the traditional mokume backing preferably via the standard rolling technique. Both heated and plenty of low temp copper safe flux used to fuse the spine on. I think this would make for an interesting project piece for the record.
The videos have gotten so short would like to see some longer bigger projects these videos are awesome
If you need inspiration, check out Dennis on the Tyrell Knifeworks channel or Baker forge and tool are rocking it. They use the copper that has a crimson hue. They call it tiger Damascus it think
I need to see Will & Sam next to each other. Close your eyes and they sound the same.
I would love to see bowie knife, a short Japanese knife that can be carried. Also a canister Damascus made from octagonal stock and copper.
Happy to see you back in Montana Alec. Hope all is going well after I am sure a long plane trip and drive back to your greatest shop. I started watching your channel when you were still on Barker street. And Sam was helping you do videos. The Montana shop is definitely the most impressive.
Awesome video guys! I appreciate the shout out. That stuff can definitely be tricky!
All the successful copper Damascus I’ve seen has been done by forging the steel to size, completely sealing in the copper with welds/sheet metal and ground to shape.
A handguard for a sword or a dagger with that piece would look gorgeous.
Seeing you in your Texas shop gives my joy to no end. Glad your back, hope to see all the new things you have up your sleeves.
His shop is in Montana...
Great video guys glad too see your back on this side of the pond. Keep up the amazing work
The steel jackets seemed like a pretty sweet idea. Maybe going for a full canister damascus could be cool.
youd likely get molten copper squorting out of a crack, right in someones face
I would like to order a steel jacket in size 15 neck. Medium, slim and short.
this is a fantastic Idea just need to watch where the hole in the canister is drilled so as not to point it at the smith or anything important LOL. I've seen pretty good results from can damascus using copper as one of the materials so I'm looking forward to it If alec is willing to try.
@@HunterReport would you like 3/4, 1/2 or full sleeve?
It is very cool when done properly but neither one of them did look up cumascus
So great seeing Alec home. Hopefully it’s for a while, but we will see.
Ever since i saw this on another channel I have been wanting to see you try it. Cant wait to see what you come up with!
How does it feel to be home buddy. In your shop, with all your tools, and memories. I'm so glad you're back, I hope you guys stay. We miss your videos in this shop
Hey alec what about milling groove between steel an drop the copper inside the groove.. then weld together so the copper cannot burst so easily out
The Ideal Temperature for forging CU Mai (Copper Damascus) is under 1800 F give, just barely red. I'd like to see you turn the billet into a Harpoon Point Hunting Knife with a Hidden Tang, or perhaps a Bowie if you have enough material to make one.
That's really cool, glad to see the experimentation.
These videos helped me get excited about working with metal again :)
Cool idea of twisting it. Ive never thought of trying that. Ive had a few successful tries using it in Go Mais. All you have to do is make sure the weld is air tight all the way around and forging it out. Then do a stock removal. Good luck.
You should do a dagger of some sort with the copper infused damascus
great video. glad to see you back in the montana shop!
So good to see him back in the workshop
Back on watching, something about a Brit abroad making his life draws me to this channel far more than when Alex is at home in the UK
Tog make kitchen knives that have a vein of copper running through the blades. They look fantastic, though are far from cheap enough for the "average consumer" IMO.
The Japanese have been doing Mokume-gane for centuries using all sorts of mixed metals. I had a nickel/copper Mokume-gane ring I lost years ago. Loved the pattern. Huge respect for all the skill and hard work these folks put into their trade. Great video.
it's really nice to see you forge after so long🙌
We NEED a Steel vs. Stelter for this!!! Gotta make a sword-breaker with it too!!
Will *Sword-Breaker* Stelter.
I just watched that series for the 5th time in 3 years the other day. I felt so bad for Will when it snapped.
I have made two knives out of Cu- Mai and currently working on my third, the best way I have found is to weld all the way around and keep the forge below 1800 F
sweet! Do you sell your knives!? I'd love to buy a smaller copper infused Damascus knife for field dressing deer.
@@strikeforcek9149 did you have any luck mate?
@@dragonwing4ever nope, no luck or response. Lol
I'm still super interested in a custom piece for field dressing deer though, haha.
@@strikeforcek9149 thought i replied to this already but who knows, i might be able to help you out there mate
@@dragonwing4ever awesome! Do you have an email or something I can contact you through?
Alec, You had the right thought when you referred to the copper as "Adhesive" because the melting temp is so much lower than steel the best you are going to get is LAYERS of steel adhered to LAYERS of copper which if done artistically is very cool.
to reduce the odds of separation when force is applied (torsion being among the more extreme kinds of force you could try lol) it could help to keep the billet in the forge for an extended period of time. given the pretty high degree of solubility of copper in steel, the longer time window should result in greater diffusion and therefore better alloying in the boundary regions, providing a stronger bond than just mechanically smushing the layers together
Based on your experiment, you should be able to meld steel with titanium in a Damascus style, thusly allowing for a severely reduced weight yet still retaining strength. Just an idea.
Yeah its called timascus it's already a thing 😁😁
the problem is the titanium creates titanium dioxide, a weld inhibitor.
i did a honsanmai billet a while back that failed due to VERY small amounts of air getting into the billet at some point. also the thermal conductivity and thermal dynamic of the ti come into play... ti is a weird animal.
we also need to think about heat treatment post forging and grinding... ive gone so far as to attempt a canister billet that was heat treated... then grind it all into a final shape.
coaster for drinks it just looks so cool having two opposite metals forge in one it really has a nice color contrast
its great to have you back in the states.
A burl wood handled hunting/skinning knife with a gut hook done from this infusion would be amazing.
never been this early
Great to see a new video Alec steel. This turned out very unique and very beautiful. Can't wait to see more videos soon my friends. Mr. Steel. Keep up the great craftsmanship and hard work my friends. Forge On. Fab On. Weld On. Keep Making. God bless.
This was a cool project. Very interesting and so good to be back in Montana 🙌
Speaking of Damascus: Have you ever considered making Wootz? That is, the original, not pattern welded stuff?
They tried but since they used a power hammer to try and combine the I can't remember what it's called the bloom to consolidate the bloom it instead crumbled into dust. I should have been using something like a wooden stump and light taps from a hammer a sledgehammer to consolidate it.
@@AdmiralStoicRum That is not Wootz
@@thedausthed omg i had a brain fart!
Lol
Its a crucible thing lol my bad
What would 1 million layers of copper-steel damascus look like? That would be crazy!
It would probably just look like one color because the layers were so thin if it were even possible but they squeeze a bit of copper out on every heat. Probably not as impressive as you'd think.
It wouldn't be impressive.
Evan and Katelyn did a ~1mil layer experience with rainbow plasticine.
It turned to "brown" at about half way through their restacks. Iirc, looked its best around the 25000 layer restack.
I love seeing Alec back in the Montana shop.
You'll want to work it at a much lower temperature I think, or at least *by hand* because the power hammer hits it too hard across the entire surface. Whatever you do the copper will still move more than the steel, but if you're moving less at once you might be able to deal with it and avoid squirting molten copper across the shop while you shape the piece. Definitely no more folding or twisting, but a mild curve or wavy pattern may be possible. Alternatively, you could go straight to the grinder and make a really cool-looking paperweight or shelf piece, or even use it as the handle for a sword or dagger. Maybe a letter opener?
That was sooo cool! I just moved back from Whitefish to Washington.
Its nice to see you back at your main shop
I learned from an old fellow I use to work with. One of our tasks was hard facing an auger on a trenching machine used to push dirt away from the trench. as you can guess trying to keep and build a straight weld on the edge of a 1/4 screw is a nigh impossible task. well the fix that this gentleman had was using a copper bar. you could form the soft copper to the curve of the auger and you could let your bead flow up against the copper without it welding as long as you Keep the copper cool. If you let it get too hot some of the weld would fuse to the copper.
Making a ring out some of the bar would be really cool with the copper vein through the middle.
Hey alec, love the video, all of your content is absolutley fantastic and the hammering after the forge is just simply mesmorising. keep up the good work. As somebody who has recently taken an intrest in smithing and has some intrest in butterfly knives (or balisongs), i'd be interested to see if anybody has made a demascus etched butterfly knife, maybe a video idea? Id be very curious to see. :)
Thanks Alec for this awesome video. 👍😁
Love this look. I think this would make an awesome smatchet with a copper pommel
hey Alec, I hope that with you being back in MT for the moment that you might be able to get supplies back in stock on your website. I'm looking to buy your 3M Versaflo PAPR Deluxe Package but it's been sold out for quite a while. I'm checking the site daily to make sure I can get one next time you have all the parts available! I'm in Missoula, so I could even drive over to pick it up!!
How does it feel being in the Montana shop? I had a job between two locations and it would be some time from one to the other, and I found when I got to the 'new' location, I would feel a bit out of sorts, like I didn't belong there or that I was in the way of everyone. You own the shop so maybe you don't feel that way, but I was wondering if you experienced anything like that going from UK to Montana.
Also make a Damascus Bowie with that copper/Damascus billet
Love the videos Alec, house the house over in England coming along would love to see another video on it
Anything you make out of that will be awesome
I've seen some people make knives with copper infused Damascus. The trick is you can't really forge out a knife shape because the copper will just melt and move on you. So if you're gonna do a knife, it has to be done with the stock removal method.
Im glad your back in the US of A's!! Hope you enjoy it
He probably just came in for blade show this weekend
I guess you could make a multi layer billet and weld the steel to the steel; that should stick. But san mai is pretty dang cool.
Probably require leather aprons, helmets with face shields and frc clothing when doing this.
I made some mokume and the silver squirted out and started dozens of small fires around my shop. That was when i built a sand tray that sits under the mouth of my forge. Normally its wheeled back under the table the forge is on. It serves to deaden, prevent splash, cool, etc very hot things that fall out of the forge mouth.
Done this a few times a press has always worked better for me. And yeah getting that metal too hot hitting it with a hammer that copper can shoot out of there like liquid fire. Another thing I've done this seems to help a little bit is drilling some dimples on the inside of the steel that's going to be touching the copper seems to hold the copper in much better. Another fun thing did I started doing before this to see how the copper and metal would react. A stack of quarters we'll forge Weld together and you make some pretty cool little pieces out of it you know the cross little hearts that type of stuff but you rarely get to see how that copper get to that as you would say sticky look. I've never even attempted A twist with it
It's summer time, time to forge up some new grilling empliments
I've done it a few times Alex. The copper makes a great show piece like an award. I've given 2 away for ppl to test for me as a EDC I got mixed reviews about them but all and all they are beautiful blades
Good job on your PSA 1 and your training is so nice keep up the good woork
I’d try to see how thick you can get that copper layer before it stairs too get too hard to fuse. And then see how much you can hot cut and fold it!
Let’s take a minute to appreciate how much of a great addition Sam is! I’m really looking forward to seeing you both working together 🙂
I bet you don't remember the first sam :(.
Tyrrell knifeworks does this frequently. Very beautiful work!
Alex at Valhalla Ironworks has some great info on making cumai with this kind of copper sandwich. IIRC his conclusion was forge the pieces out thin, weld (ok, braze) the copper in then do stock removal from then on. Avoids the exact problem you ran into of squirting molten copper places it shouldn't go when you try to forge or otherwise manipulate the cumai billet
“I have been bit by my own tics and flees” is a new one for me 😂
Can your paragon ovens get to forging temps? Combining metals seems like a process that would really benefit from the precision control.
Man it took me a minute to get used to seeing the old shop in Britain and now I have to get used to the Montana shop again
The Tyrell knife guy does it best to date!!! Probably should have checked with him instead of the amateur you asked and mentioned Haha You'll never see this or do it but maybe somebody will get some inspiration from it Lol I've been making gun parts out old wrought iron and some Damascus. Antique 22 single shot, replaced the bolt handle. Break action shotgun, replaced a few random parts with wrought iron steel combo. I make holsters for a living some I'm working on a claw made of Damascus, the weight is the only issue haha
When you do anything like this you have to treat the copper as a liquid than metal cause of its mailability at working temp for steel. Either you finish out the metal to a rough final dimension and thickness then layer the copper in and seal weld and do finishing smush and then do the rest in grinding.. Or.. you do a finishing can meaning the material you want will be the can including the ends that lay over to seal will be the material you want. Then you can forge it out and even twist but it has to stay a capped form until its finished out and you start to grind to finish. The cap can be really thin like 1/8 inch thick and maybe can get away with 1/16 thick cap. Its all finishing grinding or milling to shape that has to be done with this type of metal working.
Matching karambits would be simply stunning with that copper in there.
Hey Alec. Good to see the experiment, even if it is only a partial success. If you ever want to create a ring again, look up Mokume Gane. That technique is the Damascus of jewelry.
I am completely ignorant to steelwork but that is so rad! Can't wait to see what you end up making from it 🤙
I'd like to see Alex make a Spatula out of the copper Damascus piece! Not sure if it should have slits in the flat part or be solid but that would be cool to see. Also would be interesting how flexible the spatula would be for like cooking over easy eggs or pancakes & sausage.
could you make the initial weld by heating the copper and steel separately so the copper isn't so molten and laying them together while hot?
That seems like the perfect material to do raindrop damascus.
id say between the aesthetic that the copper brings to the damascus and the origins of Damascus itself maybe make a ornate style middle eastern dagger or short sword if there is enough material. i would personally suggest either a Janbiya dagger or a yataghan
Looks really cool, how about a cross or other decorative item? Great to see him back in Montana, hope to see lots more content now that he's given up brick laying ha ha
Look up squirrel cage motor, it has copper cast into silicon steel plates as a rotor. Might make interesting looking damascus.
For anyone wondering, It works by synchronizing to a rotating magnetic field by rotating itself.
Excited for this
How thick is the material mate man my minds blowing up with what you could do with it. .. looks amazing.
If sticking with a forge welding type process, maybe use very pieces of steel with relatively thick layers of copper, so when forging down to final thickness you will mainly just squeeze out copper and end up with layers close to similar thickness.
Could you do a video experiment where you pulverize diamonds into dust and mix them with a high carbon steel either by making the steel molten and dumping the diamond dust in or by getting it very hot and then folding in the diamond dust repeatedly. Then use the diamond steel as the center of a San Mai billet and for the outside layer use regular damascus. Make a murasamune with it or any type of Japanese samurai swords will work too.
Alec, I wonder if the issue with the twist is that you are used to the resistance of the steel and that lead to an un-uniform twist. Could you have possibly put that into a lathe (obviously with some custom attachments) and made it work?
@alecsteele Welcome to the world of copper laminates 🤘🏽
This guy right here is where I get mine!
When they make copper tungsten, they will run the pressed tungsten powder bar through the oxygen-less kiln with copper beads piled at each end of the bar. The tungsten bar will form as normal and sucks the molten copper in from the ends making a proper alloy. Conceivably, you could do the same with the pattern welded steel to a similar effect possibly pushing out the contaminates from the forge welding. May not be highly visible like the brazed bar you had.
I'm interested in long term of this method and if the metal forged together will avoid the onset of electrolysis that will decay the metals
Cool idea
Great to see you back in the States. How long you here for? And also, how’s the restoration of the house in the UK going?
“I don’t want it to be dribbling out, but I want it to be sticky” new T-shirt idea!
Love to see a what a ring looks like
I'm pretty sure that mustache sticker is a protector from a nose waxing kit lol