I think that the view of the current political divides as stemming from tribal behavior is very useful, but an important question was not addressed: how is that these tribal affiliations, usually defined along ethnic lines have become (in the US case), defined along class and (partially) partisan lines. I feel that there is a big hole in the conversation (have not read the book) if the commodification of political discourse (as TV news-entertainment) and social relationships (as social networked data for sale) in this reconfiguration of tribal divides is left out.
I thought Tiger Mom was hilarious. She was so self-depreciating and owned up to mistakes and was just real about positives and negatives about her culture and American culture and second generation culture. I saw a bunch of moms just angry about her and this book which caused me to pick it up and I liked it. I thought, "I don't think one of them read it." This new book and hillbilly Elegy have been on my wish list for a while, I hadn't realized she wrote Tiger Mom.
It seems to me that our country is being polarized by radical demographic and economic changes--- globalization, including deregulated trade, deregulated banking and an immigration policy which looks increasingly like an open borders, deregulated labor market--- bringing upon us massive population growth, job competition, and the out sourcing of many good paying jobs. Our rural communities have been especially hard hit. And none of these policies came from the American people-- the American people never asked Congress for this phenomenal population change. We didn't think we were "too white" for our own good-- we had to be indoctrinated in that idea. And we wouldnt think of telling Africans they're" too black" for their own good. That would be offensive. The globalist agenda was done to us, for our own good, by an educated elite-- focused almost exclusively on one goal: grow the GDP at all costs. More workers, more consumers, caching! caching! And if we abuse cheap labor from foreign countries-- ignore it , talk about celebrating diversity instead. It has a more positive tone. And if anybody dares to whisper that maybe multiculturalism has some unanticipated problems-- than slam them with the charge of bigotry and white supremacism. That'll make em hush up---and then we just wait for them to die. Are we surprised they put a monkey wrench into the White House?
Idiotic. This is about liberalism (Rawlsian and Millian) carried to its extreme. These are not tribes but demographics. Whites are not cohesive in terms of families, communities, religion, etc. but do get marketed to by our branded politics. The same goes for all forms of identity and consumption, especially of media. Very outdated analysis, like Fukuyama's.
Thank you P&P for arranging this great event and also making it available to us who is not in D.C. at the time and still gets to enjoy the wisdom of book events held by P&P ! As far as the book is concerned, I do not think Amy Chua understands how those living in Youngstown , Ohio have been going through in the past decades. Second, it is about her previous book undermining her a credible authority on anything. She is a failure as a mom and I know lots of Chinese kids who are now in their late 20s and are severely traumatized, with one of them even resorting to hypnosis therapy, as a way to cope with their "Tiger-mom" childhood upbringing, which are exactly the same as Amy Chua chanted in her previous book. Amy Chua should be in arrested and in jail and prosecuted for physically abusing he Children instead of popping up everywhere on media earning her fame and money.
I'm a fan of Small Is Beautiful ie secession. I think the country is far too large and that many bad effects stem from its size. If the US were reduced to at least regional [not necessarily Tribal] groups, I think such would be more rational, in some ways more efficient, more readily governed, but most importantly, less dangerous to the World. Of course this was a key issue during the Articles of Confederation from 1783 to 1789 and the Constitutional Convention in 1787...
Neither did Hillary. That forced people to vote for policies (policies over personalities--what a novel concept!), and people in most states liked Donald's policies better.
Ezra Klein, in a polite, non-combative interview subtly exposed Chua's over reliance on tone and civility as a solution to current partisan divisions. She basically just appoints herself as the arbiter of what tone "the left" should take. Then she weighs heavily on appeals to civility in rhetoric and notions of commonality as if the current divisions we face can be significantly resolved with that. But she under weighs how broader divisions often come from fundamental demographic shifts and simply can't be resolved with appeals to more civility. Also, frankly, it's annoying how she poses as a more down-to-earth, out of the "coastal elite liberal bubble" person just because she has some level of self-flagellating awareness about how she appears to so called, "regular Americans" e.g. white, working class men in middle America. Frankly, as someone who still lives in Podunk, USA, if you still lived among those folks you'd know how oppressive they can be in their small c and big C conservatism-culturally, politically, and so on. By comparison, I'd love to live in the "coastal elite liberal bubble" and self-flagellate about how out of touch I look like to Middle American in my nice apartment in Manhattan with salary.
Yes I mostly agree with Christopher A. "I feel like we are in some kind of civil war right now...The Democratic Party has changed so much that I don't recognize it anymore..." However, towards the epilogue and in the epilogue, I feel as though I am being spoonfed some sweetened but bitter tasting medicine. This is for my own good, to make me realize that despite the previous text, I am ultimately responsible for my faulty beliefs. I keep thinking of the Monty Python parable where Jack and Jill go up the hill to fetch a pail of water, come "tumbling" down and catch Venereal Disease. They go to the VD clinic which is surrounded by fluttering butterflies and song birds.
Just as America has floundered so spectacularly in their foreign policy in recent decades because of blindness to the power of tribalism, or even its very existence, America can fail to resolve its own domestic challenges due to the same kind of myopia. How much of what you believe is real and how much is a result of affinity to the "tribe": you have chosen?
What's yours and Ezra's solution? Incivility and painting deeply dishonest caricatures of your opponents? Actually, that pretty much summarizes what Vox is.
![[TH] 2024 PMSL SEA W2D5 | Fall | พลาดวันนี้ จะต้องเสียใจ](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/A5-Cuo12p6A/mqdefault.jpg)
This is a fantastic discussion and touch on alot of very important points.
I think that the view of the current political divides as stemming from tribal behavior is very useful, but an important question was not addressed: how is that these tribal affiliations, usually defined along ethnic lines have become (in the US case), defined along class and (partially) partisan lines. I feel that there is a big hole in the conversation (have not read the book) if the commodification of political discourse (as TV news-entertainment) and social relationships (as social networked data for sale) in this reconfiguration of tribal divides is left out.
I thought Tiger Mom was hilarious. She was so self-depreciating and owned up to mistakes and was just real about positives and negatives about her culture and American culture and second generation culture. I saw a bunch of moms just angry about her and this book which caused me to pick it up and I liked it. I thought, "I don't think one of them read it." This new book and hillbilly Elegy have been on my wish list for a while, I hadn't realized she wrote Tiger Mom.
It seems to me that our country is being polarized by radical demographic and economic changes--- globalization, including deregulated trade, deregulated banking and an immigration policy which looks increasingly like an open borders, deregulated labor market--- bringing upon us massive population growth, job competition, and the out sourcing of many good paying jobs. Our rural communities have been especially hard hit. And none of these policies came from the American people-- the American people never asked Congress for this phenomenal population change. We didn't think we were "too white" for our own good-- we had to be indoctrinated in that idea. And we wouldnt think of telling Africans they're" too black" for their own good. That would be offensive.
The globalist agenda was done to us, for our own good, by an educated elite-- focused almost exclusively on one goal: grow the GDP at all costs. More workers, more consumers, caching! caching! And if we abuse cheap labor from foreign countries-- ignore it , talk about celebrating diversity instead. It has a more positive tone. And if anybody dares to whisper that maybe multiculturalism has some unanticipated problems-- than slam them with the charge of bigotry and white supremacism. That'll make em hush up---and then we just wait for them to die. Are we surprised they put a monkey wrench into the White House?
What she said about America being a "supergroup" is rather insulting to Canada, Australia, New Zealand, the UK, etc.
Personally, as this event was about Amy Chua's book, I think that J.D. Vance should have talked less and deferred to Amy Chua more.
Idiotic. This is about liberalism (Rawlsian and Millian) carried to its extreme. These are not tribes but demographics. Whites are not cohesive in terms of families, communities, religion, etc. but do get marketed to by our branded politics. The same goes for all forms of identity and consumption, especially of media. Very outdated analysis, like Fukuyama's.
Thank you P&P for arranging this great event and also making it available to us who is not in D.C. at the time and still gets to enjoy the wisdom of book events held by P&P ! As far as the book is concerned, I do not think Amy Chua understands how those living in Youngstown , Ohio have been going through in the past decades. Second, it is about her previous book undermining her a credible authority on anything. She is a failure as a mom and I know lots of Chinese kids who are now in their late 20s and are severely traumatized, with one of them even resorting to hypnosis therapy, as a way to cope with their "Tiger-mom" childhood upbringing, which are exactly the same as Amy Chua chanted in her previous book. Amy Chua should be in arrested and in jail and prosecuted for physically abusing he Children instead of popping up everywhere on media earning her fame and money.
"We have an ethnically and racially neutral constitution."
***looks at 3/5ths compromise***
I'm a fan of Small Is Beautiful ie secession. I think the country is far too large and that many bad effects stem from its size. If the US were reduced to at least regional [not necessarily Tribal] groups, I think such would be more rational, in some ways more efficient, more readily governed, but most importantly, less dangerous to the World. Of course this was a key issue during the Articles of Confederation from 1783 to 1789 and the Constitutional Convention in 1787...
Donald doesn't have these 3 things:
1. principles
2. characters
3. integrity
Neither did Hillary. That forced people to vote for policies (policies over personalities--what a novel concept!), and people in most states liked Donald's policies better.
Ezra Klein, in a polite, non-combative interview subtly exposed Chua's over reliance on tone and civility as a solution to current partisan divisions.
She basically just appoints herself as the arbiter of what tone "the left" should take. Then she weighs heavily on appeals to civility in rhetoric and notions of commonality as if the current divisions we face can be significantly resolved with that. But she under weighs how broader divisions often come from fundamental demographic shifts and simply can't be resolved with appeals to more civility.
Also, frankly, it's annoying how she poses as a more down-to-earth, out of the "coastal elite liberal bubble" person just because she has some level of self-flagellating awareness about how she appears to so called, "regular Americans" e.g. white, working class men in middle America.
Frankly, as someone who still lives in Podunk, USA, if you still lived among those folks you'd know how oppressive they can be in their small c and big C conservatism-culturally, politically, and so on. By comparison, I'd love to live in the "coastal elite liberal bubble" and self-flagellate about how out of touch I look like to Middle American in my nice apartment in Manhattan with salary.
Yes I mostly agree with Christopher A. "I feel like we are in some kind of civil war right now...The Democratic Party has changed so much that I don't recognize it anymore..." However, towards the epilogue and in the epilogue, I feel as though I am being spoonfed some sweetened but bitter tasting medicine. This is for my own good, to make me realize that despite the previous text, I am ultimately responsible for my faulty beliefs. I keep thinking of the Monty Python parable where Jack and Jill go up the hill to fetch a pail of water, come "tumbling" down and catch Venereal Disease. They go to the VD clinic which is surrounded by fluttering butterflies and song birds.
Just as America has floundered so spectacularly in their foreign policy in recent decades because of blindness to the power of tribalism, or even its very existence, America can fail to resolve its own domestic challenges due to the same kind of myopia. How much of what you believe is real and how much is a result of affinity to the "tribe": you have chosen?
What's yours and Ezra's solution? Incivility and painting deeply dishonest caricatures of your opponents? Actually, that pretty much summarizes what Vox is.