I like all of them. Guitars sing and sometimes one clear voice is just the right thing. Sometimes when you have different voices singing different parts, it’s just the thing to make magic. I love that guitars have different voices dependent on so many different variables, it’s part of what makes them so compelling!
They're all incredible. I don't think one is better than the other, you pick the right tool for the job. 5 pound sledge, 16 oz claw, and tack hammer, are all hammers...they all have different uses....same with tonal woods...IMO. This was a really cool experiment!
Michael, always admired your playing, and I've always admired Ervin's work! Phenomenal guitars, though I have to say visually and sonically I really love that cedar! I don't see too many Somogyi guitars in cedar...
Very cool project Michael. Of course they all sound great. I think I land in the Cedar group, although my copout answer is that they are all great, just different. I can't wait to hear the CD.
I think Cedar sounds best, warm and colorful, very natural. Sitka is close. Then European is kinda chocked, not so natural, imho. Love your "California Dreamin'" arrangement from 2000s ;)
That was freakin' awesome! Michael on some Somogyis! Now, this comparison isn't fair. The cedar will, of course, sound way more open off the start, the other two tops need a year or two of playing to break in! Also, Somogyi usually uses sitka for his tops.. I'm guessing 90% of the time, so he's used to building with it and his voicing is adapted for it because of it's elasticity (I THINK). Anyways, awesome video and great reason for an album!
Perhaps the European spruce needs more time to develop as it is the case with classical guitars. Are there any differences in the playability of thes three guitasrs?
I am with you... they all sounded good...what do i think? well let me see... I think that most of it is in your hands and touch ... a good player can make a bad guitar sound good, but a bad player will NEVER make one of these guitars sound good,...
My preference is in the same order they were played, but I would have liked to hear more of the cedar - love it's complexity. I thought the European spruce seemed, in contrast, very constrained and "tight". Who knows, over time and aging, (the guitars, not me) my preferences might change. Lets repeat this experiment in about 10 years after all guitars will have had serious playing time. Please send me the cedar...
The cedar top sounded best to me followed closely by the Sitka spruce. The European spruce sounded quite dull in comparison to the other two. I do not know though if that is indicative of the wood type, or that particular piece of wood.
Would’ve liked to hear a bit more of that cedar. From this demo, I’d go with the Sitka. Sometimes more lively can get in the way of sound clarity. Sitka seemed to be the balanced one.
Even with the "on the spot mic set up"the first thing I hear is that strong bass.You just don't here that in guitar center(big shop) guitars .......ever!
Given the choice of just one, I'd go with the European - it sounds considerably better to my ear (but would like to have heard more of the cedar). But that assessment might change if I had all three in my hands in the quiet of my bedroom.
Looking forward to the full CD. Great playing of great guitars, as always form Messrs Chapdelaine and Somoygi! The cedar and sitka tops sounds best to me, though, listening in the studio, the recording's a little crunchy. To my ears it sounds like there's something going on with the European recording - perhaps a difference in positioning of guitar vs the mic - which makes it unappealing and somewhat thin and phasey sounding by comparison to the others. Just a few mm can make all the difference... My guess is that in the flesh the Euro top compares well to the others, but it's not doing it for me in this recording. No particular vested interest here: I've got guitars with cedar and sitka tops, but the one I'm most excited about is my incoming Mod D from one of Ervin's former apprentices - Jason Kostal - in German spruce over some claro that came from Ervin.
IMHO, Cedar is my preferred one, then Sitka, last "this" European Spruce guitar. From quite a long time, I have an Alhambra 6-string acoustic guitar that I ordered with cedar top, mostly influenced by Pierre Bensusan, who at that time played a Lowden guitar with cedar top (actually Alhambra kind of copied the Lowden design, not to mention the saddle, which is identical...;-) I have a Lakewood 12-string guitar with European spruce on top (Indian rosewood back and sides) and it does not sound with those "uncontrolled" highs...;-( What Ervin says about the importance of the top and fan strutting was demonstrated by Antonio de Torres Jurado who, in 1862 built his famous "papier-mâché" bodied guitar, as a proof that the strutting of the table is of paramount importance in the determination of guitar tone. The table was made of high-quality spruce, with the conventional Torres bracing pattern of seven fan struts in the lower bout. The sides and back were made of sheets of cardboard, stiffened with timber fillets.
SEE NEW EDIT BELOW. I have a distinct preference for Cedar, due to its intrinsic warmth and darkness. Cedar also reaches its potential quicker than Spruce. If I could play (which I can't) the warmth would get in the way of lots of music, and I would probably prefer Sitka, which is the most balanced, and therefore the most versatile. European, like any visitor from a foreign land, gets high marks in America, but Europeans, of course, tend to give similar high marks to Sitka, for the same general reason. European sounds a little brittle at times, but then I am biased to the dark side. If I could really play, doubtless I would prefer having all three. I've ordered the CD, and look forward to hearing the raw files, wondering if any of them will refute my bias(es). Somogyi makes great guitars, but they can't sound great unless the player is also great. Someone should make it possible for Michael to have one of them. My guess is he would take the Sitka, about the price of a nice car. All three and we are talking about a house in a small town. EDIT: The mailwoman was kind to me today (March 5) and delivered Mike's CD. Fantastic sound, excellently designed packaging too. This item kicks ass all the way around. And ... to my great surprise in the 3-way head to head, SITKA provided the extra kick of dark power that I am accustomed to associating with cedar. Listen and learn. Biases are made to be broken.
Well I have to preface my answer by saying 1) Obviously the most importance falls on the workman (in this case both the luthier as well as the player) and not the tools, and 2) we need to hear more in order to make the most informed decision possible. I personally would like to hear more harmonics out of all three as well. That being said, by going off just what was heard in this video, I prefer either the Cedar or the Sitka/American Spruce. Need to hear more in order to differentiate the two accurately. I am not so much a fan of the European Spruce; as others have said, it seems to have a bit more of a muffled quality to the sound, though that could still very much fit some songs perfectly.
cedar is more complex... scope the sound and see the physics of the sound!! the cedar has less dirty standing waves.. the others sounded somewhat cloudy and more muddy. does your design of reverse cut away affect the sound and projection? just curious.
My luthier Marc Beneteau told me a cutaway doesn't affect the sound of projection of the guitar because sound isn't generated by the very top of the guitar body.
I'd love to hear the sitka play the intro the the cedar to play the A section, to really compare the differences. If I had to choose one of these guitars ( in a pipe dream ) The european is too delicate for me. Digital download of the CD please would be fantastic. For god's sake, how does a garden variety musician afford $30,000 USD for a guitar ? Are these made for collectors or the 1% of guitarists who can afford this beautiful guitars ?
+tweed guitar Oh Tweed, those are soooo not "my" guitars. The are now safely in the possession of a much wealthier man. Am I really "garden variety"? That plus being too poor to buy a "collector grade" guitar has just assured some heavy drinking tonight.
+Michael Chapdelaine Dearest Michael, I am fully aware that these guitars are not your guitars, I have followed your career ever since you studied with Segovia. You are a beautiful soul, with extreme mastery of the guitar. Yes...teaching and playing acoustic guitar is not a highly paid profession, as we both know. Thank you as always for your beautiful music maestro. Oh my god michael , now i see ....when I said " garden variety musician" I was referring to ME and countless others...not you my friend, not you at all, you are a grand sage of the guitar ( sincerely ) My comment : Are these made for collectors or the 1% of guitarists who can afford this beautiful guitars ? ( i refer to investment collectors who buy us out of the market, and to world touring recording artists etc who can afford this sort of money for a guitar.)
Hi Tweed. Somogyi makes them to be played, first and foremost, so the soul of the instrument is aimed at players, especially players who require a wide range of responses from the instrument as it is played. I suppose a player who derives great income from playing would be part of his market. John Denver, for instance, owned a Somogyi, and he could afford it. That said, I can tell you Mr. Somogyi was and is very happy that Mike did the playing for this experiment. Somehow, I don't think he would have been quite as excited if the player were John Denver (said with great respect for John Denver, a great singer who used guitars for accompaniment). If you get the CD, you will notice the artist is an "Acoustic Guitar Virtuoso", somewhat humorous (as opposed to grandiose) and absolutely true.
Considering the expense of the guitars, they could have taken much more care to record them with with a good small-diaphram condenser mic and played all 3 with the same part of the same song. Some guitars that sound great on melody lines don't hack it on strumming and vice versa. I noticed that Michael mentions that the mics and placement were the same. Using just one mic is better for this kind of a test to avoid the possibility of phasing issues. Even a slight movement of one of the pair can potentially make a big difference in phase interaction. I think this is what happened to the third recording. The recording of the third (European Spruce) sounded horrible and I would be shocked if it sounds like that in real life. I don't think Ervin's reputation would be what it is if that were the case.
+Blane Ebersold Thanks Blane: Please read the updated text above about this video. I was in a hurry this AM and just pasted the CD notes, which was recorded quite differently. th-cam.com/video/ft5_QdYvZw4/w-d-xo.html Saludos, m
Michael, Hi, I am a video and audio recording engineer as you know. The audio on your speech and conversation with Mr S is OK with a little low end distortion but the low end on the mic on the guitars sounded overdriven and a bit distorted. I listened several different ways on Phones, JBL, Tannoys and two different playbacks. Could you please post again with something like an NT1, Neumann, AKG or other quality condenser and watch the levels? Hard to be subjective about the audio on the TH-cam clip. I know you are a quality centric dude. Sincerely Howard
+Bud Chestnut thanks Brad: Please read the updated text above about this video. I was in a hurry this AM and just pasted the CD notes, which was recorded quite differently. th-cam.com/video/ft5_QdYvZw4/w-d-xo.html Saludos, m
It is impossible to create similar guitars even using same wood for each part... Even if it will be same tree. This is the reason for this hundreds of years debates. Also, the only "real" way to hear difference is to sit next to you while you playing guitars - there's a lot of stages between guitar's sound and listeners ears - mics, recording (digital/analog) tools, listeners speackers. Nevertheless, this is really cool and excite experiment. It won't solve this issue, but nice try)
I like all of them. Guitars sing and sometimes one clear voice is just the right thing. Sometimes when you have different voices singing different parts, it’s just the thing to make magic.
I love that guitars have different voices dependent on so many different variables, it’s part of what makes them so compelling!
They're all incredible. I don't think one is better than the other, you pick the right tool for the job. 5 pound sledge, 16 oz claw, and tack hammer, are all hammers...they all have different uses....same with tonal woods...IMO. This was a really cool experiment!
I thought very good and would like to hear more.
I want to hear them more! Can't wait
To me it was the cedar for sure. Thanks Michael - you continue to be an inspiration! Simon
Michael, always admired your playing, and I've always admired Ervin's work! Phenomenal guitars, though I have to say visually and sonically I really love that cedar! I don't see too many Somogyi guitars in cedar...
Very cool project Michael. Of course they all sound great. I think I land in the Cedar group, although my copout answer is that they are all great, just different. I can't wait to hear the CD.
I think Cedar sounds best, warm and colorful, very natural. Sitka is close. Then European is kinda chocked, not so natural, imho.
Love your "California Dreamin'" arrangement from 2000s ;)
Awesome as always!
That was freakin' awesome! Michael on some Somogyis! Now, this comparison isn't fair. The cedar will, of course, sound way more open off the start, the other two tops need a year or two of playing to break in! Also, Somogyi usually uses sitka for his tops.. I'm guessing 90% of the time, so he's used to building with it and his voicing is adapted for it because of it's elasticity (I THINK). Anyways, awesome video and great reason for an album!
Cedar for sure ... sounds rich and well balanced : )
I think Sitka sounded the most balanced! All sounded amazing. :-)
Perhaps the European spruce needs more time to develop as it is the case with classical guitars.
Are there any differences in the playability of thes three guitasrs?
I am with you... they all sounded good...what do i think? well let me see... I think that most of it is in your hands and touch ... a good player can make a bad guitar sound good, but a bad player will NEVER make one of these guitars sound good,...
My preference is in the same order they were played, but I would have liked to hear more of the cedar - love it's complexity. I thought the European spruce seemed, in contrast, very constrained and "tight". Who knows, over time and aging, (the guitars, not me) my preferences might change. Lets repeat this experiment in about 10 years after all guitars will have had serious playing time. Please send me the cedar...
Sitka Spruce! Cedar is authentic-nostalgic, sitka is modern and warm...
The cedar top sounded best to me followed closely by the Sitka spruce. The European spruce sounded quite dull in comparison to the other two. I do not know though if that is indicative of the wood type, or that particular piece of wood.
I like cedar and redwood ... these are best choice for serious player
Would’ve liked to hear a bit more of that cedar. From this demo, I’d go with the Sitka. Sometimes more lively can get in the way of sound clarity. Sitka seemed to be the balanced one.
Even with the "on the spot mic set up"the first thing I hear is that strong bass.You just don't here that in guitar center(big shop) guitars .......ever!
I like the cedar.
A happy incident!
Given the choice of just one, I'd go with the European - it sounds considerably better to my ear (but would like to have heard more of the cedar). But that assessment might change if I had all three in my hands in the quiet of my bedroom.
In order to my ear on a TH-cam video Sitka, Cedar European. I would think sitting in the room might be different.
Looking forward to the full CD. Great playing of great guitars, as always form Messrs Chapdelaine and Somoygi!
The cedar and sitka tops sounds best to me, though, listening in the studio, the recording's a little crunchy.
To my ears it sounds like there's something going on with the European recording - perhaps a difference in positioning of guitar vs the mic - which makes it unappealing and somewhat thin and phasey sounding by comparison to the others. Just a few mm can make all the difference... My guess is that in the flesh the Euro top compares well to the others, but it's not doing it for me in this recording.
No particular vested interest here: I've got guitars with cedar and sitka tops, but the one I'm most excited about is my incoming Mod D from one of Ervin's former apprentices - Jason Kostal - in German spruce over some claro that came from Ervin.
Cedar for me, but maybe because I have a cedar guitar on order..
IMHO, Cedar is my preferred one, then Sitka, last "this" European Spruce guitar. From quite a long time, I have an Alhambra 6-string acoustic guitar that I ordered with cedar top, mostly influenced by Pierre Bensusan, who at that time played a Lowden guitar with cedar top (actually Alhambra kind of copied the Lowden design, not to mention the saddle, which is identical...;-)
I have a Lakewood 12-string guitar with European spruce on top (Indian rosewood back and sides) and it does not sound with those "uncontrolled" highs...;-(
What Ervin says about the importance of the top and fan strutting was demonstrated by Antonio de Torres Jurado who, in 1862 built his famous "papier-mâché" bodied guitar, as a proof that the strutting of the table is of paramount importance in the determination of guitar tone. The table was made of high-quality spruce, with the conventional Torres bracing pattern of seven fan struts in the lower bout. The sides and back were made of sheets of cardboard, stiffened with timber fillets.
SEE NEW EDIT BELOW. I have a distinct preference for Cedar, due to its intrinsic warmth and darkness. Cedar also reaches its potential quicker than Spruce. If I could play (which I can't) the warmth would get in the way of lots of music, and I would probably prefer Sitka, which is the most balanced, and therefore the most versatile. European, like any visitor from a foreign land, gets high marks in America, but Europeans, of course, tend to give similar high marks to Sitka, for the same general reason. European sounds a little brittle at times, but then I am biased to the dark side. If I could really play, doubtless I would prefer having all three. I've ordered the CD, and look forward to hearing the raw files, wondering if any of them will refute my bias(es). Somogyi makes great guitars, but they can't sound great unless the player is also great. Someone should make it possible for Michael to have one of them. My guess is he would take the Sitka, about the price of a nice car. All three and we are talking about a house in a small town.
EDIT: The mailwoman was kind to me today (March 5) and delivered Mike's CD. Fantastic sound, excellently designed packaging too. This item kicks ass all the way around. And ... to my great surprise in the 3-way head to head, SITKA provided the extra kick of dark power that I am accustomed to associating with cedar. Listen and learn. Biases are made to be broken.
Well I have to preface my answer by saying 1) Obviously the most importance falls on the workman (in this case both the luthier as well as the player) and not the tools, and 2) we need to hear more in order to make the most informed decision possible. I personally would like to hear more harmonics out of all three as well. That being said, by going off just what was heard in this video, I prefer either the Cedar or the Sitka/American Spruce. Need to hear more in order to differentiate the two accurately. I am not so much a fan of the European Spruce; as others have said, it seems to have a bit more of a muffled quality to the sound, though that could still very much fit some songs perfectly.
+edallencompassingly www.michaelchapdelaine.com/SomogyiIncident.html
The Cedar sounded best to me, which pains me to say as I recently bought a beautiful D-18 with a Sitka top. Oh well, I'll know for next time.
I think that I don't know. Has scandinavian wood ever been used in guitar making?
Also, you channeled your inner Steven King in the end.
cedar is more complex... scope the sound and see the physics of the sound!! the cedar has less dirty standing waves.. the others sounded somewhat cloudy and more muddy.
does your design of reverse cut away affect the sound and projection? just curious.
My luthier Marc Beneteau told me a cutaway doesn't affect the sound of projection of the guitar because sound isn't generated by the very top of the guitar body.
+Rael0505 sound and projection*
I'd love to hear the sitka play the intro the the cedar to play the A section, to really compare the differences.
If I had to choose one of these guitars ( in a pipe dream )
The european is too delicate for me.
Digital download of the CD please would be fantastic.
For god's sake, how does a garden variety musician afford $30,000 USD for a guitar ?
Are these made for collectors or the 1% of guitarists who can afford this beautiful guitars ?
+tweed guitar Oh Tweed, those are soooo not "my" guitars. The are now safely in the possession of a much wealthier man.
Am I really "garden variety"? That plus being too poor to buy a "collector grade" guitar has just assured some heavy drinking tonight.
+Michael Chapdelaine Dearest Michael, I am fully aware that these guitars are not your guitars, I have followed your career ever since you studied with Segovia. You are a beautiful soul, with extreme mastery of the guitar. Yes...teaching and playing acoustic guitar is not a highly paid profession, as we both know. Thank you as always for your beautiful music maestro.
Oh my god michael , now i see ....when I said " garden variety musician" I was referring to ME and countless others...not you my friend, not you at all, you are a grand sage of the guitar ( sincerely )
My comment : Are these made for collectors or the 1% of guitarists who can afford this beautiful guitars ? ( i refer to investment collectors who buy us out of the market, and to world touring recording artists etc who can afford this sort of money for a guitar.)
Hi Tweed. Somogyi makes them to be played, first and foremost, so the soul of the instrument is aimed at players, especially players who require a wide range of responses from the instrument as it is played. I suppose a player who derives great income from playing would be part of his market. John Denver, for instance, owned a Somogyi, and he could afford it. That said, I can tell you Mr. Somogyi was and is very happy that Mike did the playing for this experiment. Somehow, I don't think he would have been quite as excited if the player were John Denver (said with great respect for John Denver, a great singer who used guitars for accompaniment).
If you get the CD, you will notice the artist is an "Acoustic Guitar Virtuoso", somewhat humorous (as opposed to grandiose) and absolutely true.
+tweed guitar Thanks Tweed. You are too kind. (I did have mighty nice Napa Cab, though. Good on ya'.
The rich sound of Cedar...
Cedar. The other two sounded muffled in comparison.
Considering the expense of the guitars, they could have taken much more care to record them with with a good small-diaphram condenser mic and played all 3 with the same part of the same song. Some guitars that sound great on melody lines don't hack it on strumming and vice versa. I noticed that Michael mentions that the mics and placement were the same. Using just one mic is better for this kind of a test to avoid the possibility of phasing issues. Even a slight movement of one of the pair can potentially make a big difference in phase interaction. I think this is what happened to the third recording. The recording of the third (European Spruce) sounded horrible and I would be shocked if it sounds like that in real life. I don't think Ervin's reputation would be what it is if that were the case.
+Blane Ebersold Thanks Blane:
Please read the updated text above about this video. I was in a hurry this AM and just pasted the CD notes, which was recorded quite differently.
th-cam.com/video/ft5_QdYvZw4/w-d-xo.html
Saludos,
m
1/ cedar 2/ sitca , but we need more listening time to be accurate !
Michael, Hi, I am a video and audio recording engineer as you know. The audio on your speech and conversation with Mr S is OK with a little low end distortion but the low end on the mic on the guitars sounded overdriven and a bit distorted. I listened several different ways on Phones, JBL, Tannoys and two different playbacks. Could you please post again with something like an NT1, Neumann, AKG or other quality condenser and watch the levels? Hard to be subjective about the audio on the TH-cam clip. I know you are a quality centric dude. Sincerely Howard
+Bud Chestnut thanks Brad:
Please read the updated text above about this video. I was in a hurry
this AM and just pasted the CD notes, which was recorded quite
differently.
th-cam.com/video/ft5_QdYvZw4/w-d-xo.html
Saludos,
m
My last name is Somogyi but it's not pronounced like his
Hey Michael, do you sell your albums in digital format?
+Faceless Messiah Working on it.
It is impossible to create similar guitars even using same wood for each part... Even if it will be same tree. This is the reason for this hundreds of years debates. Also, the only "real" way to hear difference is to sit next to you while you playing guitars - there's a lot of stages between guitar's sound and listeners ears - mics, recording (digital/analog) tools, listeners speackers.
Nevertheless, this is really cool and excite experiment. It won't solve this issue, but nice try)
Cedar is the best.