Hey Jonathan, this is Kenny from Belgium, so off course I would promote Flanders. The 260 course is the entire course the elites do during the race, which includes 100k of boring, flat highways. The shorter course starts when it starts to get fun with the hills and cobbles. Also, other big granfondo's in Europe are: The Marmotte Alps!! Biggest of them all, and also the Maratona Dolomiti. You could also consider the crazie Mallorca 316 (that is 316k!!). Love the podcast, keep it up.
Peaks Challenge Falls Creek (3 Peaks) is awesome, 235km and 4500m. I've also done the Maratona (135km, 4500m, 7 mountain passes) which is incredibly scenic (assuming good weather) but also has 9000 starters. It took me 30 mins to get over the start line. If you can get a priority starting position that would be the way to go. Peaks is definitely more challenging - parcours and weather, I've ridden it in both sleet and heat. Would love to see you in Oz and hear about your training plan!
I race Cat 2 in the US, ride ~10k miles this year by the end, and eat/drink a lot of carbs and electrolytes with a structured training plan in both climates. I still cramp on 70+ mile road races and can do good in crits. Cramping unfortunately really runs in my family. There are people I know as well that tell me they've never cramped before...
I cant wait to listen. Cramps have been my biggest problem over the last 15 years of endurance sports between xc skiing and xc mtb. I am thinking of trying creatine for all the many benefits that have been discussed here and other forums and also to see if can help alleviate my cramping issues on efforts longer than 90 minutes.
Big fan here, but this time if found odd two things: 1. Why you think it is more comfortable to ride an mtb than a gravel bike and choose looong bike races for next year. A gravel bike should be able to replicate a road bike fit, AND all the benefits that come with it. 2. Why you want to put HR as back burner indicator of effort? You've asked at least two experts and they say HR tops over power. Yeah HR is all over the place, but then again, it is all over because of something you probably should pay attention to for health and performance. Yeah, I understand your platform is centered on power (main reason why I haven't joined TBH) but still, "the beauty of science" and all that.
Just listening to the podcast atm and got up to calories... when I had an accident several years ago (fractured T2, T3, rib and concussion) I burned through a _lot_ of calories just lilting in bed!
I've done We Ride Flanders twice. I think most people do the longest route that starts and stops in Oudenarde. The logistics of starting in Antwerp is a PITA (unless it's starting in Bruges, then it becomes much more manageable). Great event production but I'd hardly call it competitive, to be honest, no awards or anything like that. Haute Route Alps has to be on the list. Bucket list of bucket list races IMO. Missed you at Big Sugar Jonathan, it was a fun weekend indeed.
When you speak about Maratona dles Dolomites that I love, do not forget about Oetztaler Radmarathon, for me this one is the pinnacle of European fondos..
My experience as someone who used to race at the front of the field in gravel but on a MTB, by about 70kms my core would get so sore from trying to maintain an aero position that once the next guy on a gravel bike caught and attacked on a downhill there was no way I could maintain enough of an aero position to keep up with or catch him again, I went out that week and bought myself a gravel bike and he never beat me again.
A few comments: 1)I don't think we'll see flat bars become a thing in gravel racing, and probably more the other way as we've seen drop bars showing up in races like Leadville (Kegan and Dylan Johnson) and Chequamegon. Even the pros can spend a lot of time solo or in small groups where aero really matters. You just can't get a tight elbows-in position on flat bars or not at least sustainably. 2) While the pros may be going to 2+" MTB tires, I'm not sure that's the fastest for everyone. I've done my own testing on a 20 minute flat, variable gravel loop with tires up to 2.1" and they were slower than the 45mm that seems to be the sweet spot for me. I'm thinking they could be faster for them as they're at 20 mph and I'm at 15-17 mph, and the shock-absorption or "float" at the higher speeds works better. My conclusion is there isn't a one-size-fits-all and you need to do your own testing. 3) If suspension does become common in gravel, it'll be something different that what we see in MTB. In gravel it's more about smoothing out the higher frequency roughness that absorbing bigger hits. I don't believe telescopic forks are very good at that. I just got a Lauf Seigla and it's actually quite stiff in front. The stiffness with minimal damping seems to work better. It doesn't totally remove the roughness, but it does take the sharper edge. off. My two cents.
I largely agree, as I've been doing some testing myself. Sessioning a trail with rigid gravel, 40mm suspension gravel, 40, 48 mm tyres, XC MTB with flat bars and with drop bars, I've had my fastest runs on the drop bar XC, and I think it's mainly due to comfort and confidence as I'm coming from road. I measured sections at a fixed power and one that was just at a comfortable pace. Drop bar XC went fastest from A to B and for the least power. Anyway, I like the gravel geo and I found it the most fun, although I still prefer having suspension due to rocky/rooty singletrack sections. Gravel fork seems to be tuned well, I still get a direct feeling in terms of bike response, it takes the bite off, preserves my rims, and is stiff enough. Most importantly, I don't sink to the front while braking or cornering in the drops. Bottom line, plenty of stuff out there. Do your own testing and on your desired trails.
MTB while a great thought, it is gearing limitation on those bikes vs the gravel bikes. If all the mfg's could figure out gearing to fit bigger rings on the front then mtb's with drop bars would be the way to go for many of the events. I am 54 and my LTHR is 179 and I can still max out my HR to 205 for up to 15 seconds. It has been this way close to my entire life.. My resting HR is only in the mid 50's and that has not changed in 20 years
Ötztaler Radmarathon is probably rhe most competitive and prestigous Road marathon event in the European Alps. And it's amazing too. Then there are La Marmotte (Col du Galibier, Alpe d'Huez) and Marathona de los Dolomitas which are brilliant but maybe one tier lower. Alpenbrevet (Swiss passes around Andermatt) is anorher good one. L'Etappe du Tour is for international tourists. Great event probably but not rhe real thing.
My understanding is that there is a large neural component to cramping and sodium(or a lack of) impacts the signalling to the muscle. I agree with what is said here, training advances are enabling higher performances for extended periods. High power spikes require high neural function. Combine that with longer efforts at higher intensity and dehydration and muscle contraction is going to be compromised. High (neural muscular) power efforts placed at the end of training may help fatigue resistance.
c'mon go hard, come down under for 3 Peaks. I am training hard for it, not sure yet whether I am going yet due to finances and fitness and weight being 112kg but doing my best. 235km of closed off road with around 4500m of climbing. Hardest climb is the last one! 30km long and first few k's average over 10% with 15% in it. Yes you have to do all 3 climbs! When you turn WTF corner the final climb hits with the Grim Reaper waiting up the road 13 hours to finish, 12 hours to get finishers jersey, 10 hours is what a lot try for and elites go under 8 hours
its so easy to do calorie counting wrong X_x It took me a long time and a lot of trial end error to figure out that even though various devices estimated my BMR to be like 1450kcal I needed to eat a base level of about 2100-2200 calories to not feel hungry all the time. I was doing a fairly high volume of training at the time though, about 15-17 hours a week.
Differences in Sweat could also be from weight. The bigger you are the more you sweat, and if you get stronger and burn more calories which might cause more sweat, if you lose weight at the same time the amount you sweat might just stay the same. 220 minus age does not always apply. I am 55 at 30 my max hr was 188, at 55 it is now 186 and have held an average of 168 for over 30 minutes. My doctor has told me I should consider my health and not train so much lol... so I doubled my training.
Another great podcast and thank you for continuing to improve the TR platform, love it. If you come to Oz come to the Seven UCI gravel qualifier Western Australia (125km and 3200m of climbing, if it's good enough for Brendan Trekky Johnston, it's a challenge! th-cam.com/video/Uh-BSsXkjHw/w-d-xo.htmlsi=IGQQcRm3Wtkm6sB4) and the same area is hosting the Gravel World Champs in 2026. Second encourage everyone to listen to Andy Galpin's podcast on How and Why to Strengthen your Heart - a deep dive into the heart and answers a lot of questions about heart rates etc.
Caffeine causes cramp in a lot of cases. It drives your muscles to go harder than they normally would and it also depletes magnesium which is vital for muscle function, particularly relaxation.
Hey Jonathan, this is Kenny from Belgium, so off course I would promote Flanders. The 260 course is the entire course the elites do during the race, which includes 100k of boring, flat highways. The shorter course starts when it starts to get fun with the hills and cobbles. Also, other big granfondo's in Europe are: The Marmotte Alps!! Biggest of them all, and also the Maratona Dolomiti. You could also consider the crazie Mallorca 316 (that is 316k!!). Love the podcast, keep it up.
Peaks Challenge Falls Creek (3 Peaks) is awesome, 235km and 4500m. I've also done the Maratona (135km, 4500m, 7 mountain passes) which is incredibly scenic (assuming good weather) but also has 9000 starters. It took me 30 mins to get over the start line. If you can get a priority starting position that would be the way to go. Peaks is definitely more challenging - parcours and weather, I've ridden it in both sleet and heat. Would love to see you in Oz and hear about your training plan!
Unpopular opinion: getting cramps has as much to do with fit as it does nutrition.
Fitness is all it has to do with, but the electrolyte industry is too big and will never admit it.
I race Cat 2 in the US, ride ~10k miles this year by the end, and eat/drink a lot of carbs and electrolytes with a structured training plan in both climates. I still cramp on 70+ mile road races and can do good in crits. Cramping unfortunately really runs in my family. There are people I know as well that tell me they've never cramped before...
man nate showing the newbie lifting gains stilll :D
I cant wait to listen. Cramps have been my biggest problem over the last 15 years of endurance sports between xc skiing and xc mtb. I am thinking of trying creatine for all the many benefits that have been discussed here and other forums and also to see if can help alleviate my cramping issues on efforts longer than 90 minutes.
Big fan here, but this time if found odd two things:
1. Why you think it is more comfortable to ride an mtb than a gravel bike and choose looong bike races for next year. A gravel bike should be able to replicate a road bike fit, AND all the benefits that come with it.
2. Why you want to put HR as back burner indicator of effort? You've asked at least two experts and they say HR tops over power. Yeah HR is all over the place, but then again, it is all over because of something you probably should pay attention to for health and performance. Yeah, I understand your platform is centered on power (main reason why I haven't joined TBH) but still, "the beauty of science" and all that.
Just listening to the podcast atm and got up to calories... when I had an accident several years ago (fractured T2, T3, rib and concussion) I burned through a _lot_ of calories just lilting in bed!
I've done We Ride Flanders twice. I think most people do the longest route that starts and stops in Oudenarde. The logistics of starting in Antwerp is a PITA (unless it's starting in Bruges, then it becomes much more manageable). Great event production but I'd hardly call it competitive, to be honest, no awards or anything like that. Haute Route Alps has to be on the list. Bucket list of bucket list races IMO. Missed you at Big Sugar Jonathan, it was a fun weekend indeed.
I was going to write exactly this. If you're looking for competitive and challending European events, I am surprised the Ötztaler isn't mentioned.
Rides for you: Markleville Death Ride in the Sierras. Five passes, ~140 miles.
Climb to Kaiser, Near Yosemite.
When you speak about Maratona dles Dolomites that I love, do not forget about Oetztaler Radmarathon, for me this one is the pinnacle of European fondos..
My experience as someone who used to race at the front of the field in gravel but on a MTB, by about 70kms my core would get so sore from trying to maintain an aero position that once the next guy on a gravel bike caught and attacked on a downhill there was no way I could maintain enough of an aero position to keep up with or catch him again, I went out that week and bought myself a gravel bike and he never beat me again.
A few comments:
1)I don't think we'll see flat bars become a thing in gravel racing, and probably more the other way as we've seen drop bars showing up in races like Leadville (Kegan and Dylan Johnson) and Chequamegon. Even the pros can spend a lot of time solo or in small groups where aero really matters. You just can't get a tight elbows-in position on flat bars or not at least sustainably.
2) While the pros may be going to 2+" MTB tires, I'm not sure that's the fastest for everyone. I've done my own testing on a 20 minute flat, variable gravel loop with tires up to 2.1" and they were slower than the 45mm that seems to be the sweet spot for me. I'm thinking they could be faster for them as they're at 20 mph and I'm at 15-17 mph, and the shock-absorption or "float" at the higher speeds works better. My conclusion is there isn't a one-size-fits-all and you need to do your own testing.
3) If suspension does become common in gravel, it'll be something different that what we see in MTB. In gravel it's more about smoothing out the higher frequency roughness that absorbing bigger hits. I don't believe telescopic forks are very good at that. I just got a Lauf Seigla and it's actually quite stiff in front. The stiffness with minimal damping seems to work better. It doesn't totally remove the roughness, but it does take the sharper edge. off.
My two cents.
I largely agree, as I've been doing some testing myself. Sessioning a trail with rigid gravel, 40mm suspension gravel, 40, 48 mm tyres, XC MTB with flat bars and with drop bars, I've had my fastest runs on the drop bar XC, and I think it's mainly due to comfort and confidence as I'm coming from road.
I measured sections at a fixed power and one that was just at a comfortable pace. Drop bar XC went fastest from A to B and for the least power.
Anyway, I like the gravel geo and I found it the most fun, although I still prefer having suspension due to rocky/rooty singletrack sections. Gravel fork seems to be tuned well, I still get a direct feeling in terms of bike response, it takes the bite off, preserves my rims, and is stiff enough. Most importantly, I don't sink to the front while braking or cornering in the drops.
Bottom line, plenty of stuff out there. Do your own testing and on your desired trails.
MTB while a great thought, it is gearing limitation on those bikes vs the gravel bikes. If all the mfg's could figure out gearing to fit bigger rings on the front then mtb's with drop bars would be the way to go for many of the events.
I am 54 and my LTHR is 179 and I can still max out my HR to 205 for up to 15 seconds. It has been this way close to my entire life.. My resting HR is only in the mid 50's and that has not changed in 20 years
Ötztaler Radmarathon is probably rhe most competitive and prestigous Road marathon event in the European Alps. And it's amazing too. Then there are La Marmotte (Col du Galibier, Alpe d'Huez) and Marathona de los Dolomitas which are brilliant but maybe one tier lower. Alpenbrevet (Swiss passes around Andermatt) is anorher good one. L'Etappe du Tour is for international tourists. Great event probably but not rhe real thing.
Oh, and stay away from Roubaix and Flanders. These are just miserable days on the bike.
My understanding is that there is a large neural component to cramping and sodium(or a lack of) impacts the signalling to the muscle. I agree with what is said here, training advances are enabling higher performances for extended periods. High power spikes require high neural function. Combine that with longer efforts at higher intensity and dehydration and muscle contraction is going to be compromised. High (neural muscular) power efforts placed at the end of training may help fatigue resistance.
I have gotten home from a long hard ride and started cramping badly, applied ASEA Renu 28 gel and cramps stopped almost instantly
c'mon go hard, come down under for 3 Peaks. I am training hard for it, not sure yet whether I am going yet due to finances and fitness and weight being 112kg but doing my best. 235km of closed off road with around 4500m of climbing. Hardest climb is the last one! 30km long and first few k's average over 10% with 15% in it.
Yes you have to do all 3 climbs!
When you turn WTF corner the final climb hits with the Grim Reaper waiting up the road
13 hours to finish, 12 hours to get finishers jersey, 10 hours is what a lot try for and elites go under 8 hours
HRV is an excellent indicator for glycogen replenishment. Once your glycogen stores are fully saturated, you get a top notch HRV reading.
its so easy to do calorie counting wrong X_x It took me a long time and a lot of trial end error to figure out that even though various devices estimated my BMR to be like 1450kcal I needed to eat a base level of about 2100-2200 calories to not feel hungry all the time. I was doing a fairly high volume of training at the time though, about 15-17 hours a week.
Peaks challenge, give Cris and Jesse from the Nero show a race 😂🚲
Differences in Sweat could also be from weight. The bigger you are the more you sweat, and if you get stronger and burn more calories which might cause more sweat, if you lose weight at the same time the amount you sweat might just stay the same.
220 minus age does not always apply. I am 55 at 30 my max hr was 188, at 55 it is now 186 and have held an average of 168 for over 30 minutes.
My doctor has told me I should consider my health and not train so much lol... so I doubled my training.
Nice guns Nate!
Drop bars have to be faster at 19 miles an hour for 5 1/2 hours.
What smartwatch does it look like Johnathan is wearing in today’s podcast? Looks like a Garmin but no sure which model. Anyone have any ideas? Thanks.
best guess is Garmin Forerunner 955 or 965. but it could be a fenix.
What's the plan for the 500th episode? Way back when I suggested a crit race.
Race for 2025: come to Wales and join the Dragon Devil. 296km and nearly 5,000m of climbing. You'll see some of the best climbs in South Wales
Have you not heard of @mctubbbin or seen his teamwork for Keegan? Surprised he didn't even get a mention.
Wider tire chat?
just notice Nates Biceps. looks like your gym work is having an effect.
Ah the studio. Miss Chad though
Do Three Peaks Victorian Alps in Australia!! Or atleast lets us know the best program to use for it 😊
3 peaks is great - when there aren’t bushfires, road slides or floods!
build up k's up to 8 hours then add climbs including short steep ones to get the strength for wtf corner
Another great podcast and thank you for continuing to improve the TR platform, love it. If you come to Oz come to the Seven UCI gravel qualifier Western Australia (125km and 3200m of climbing, if it's good enough for Brendan Trekky Johnston, it's a challenge! th-cam.com/video/Uh-BSsXkjHw/w-d-xo.htmlsi=IGQQcRm3Wtkm6sB4) and the same area is hosting the Gravel World Champs in 2026. Second encourage everyone to listen to Andy Galpin's podcast on How and Why to Strengthen your Heart - a deep dive into the heart and answers a lot of questions about heart rates etc.
All I have ever had to do is add a little salt to my water before the ride. Or your favorite electrolyte.
Caffeine causes cramp in a lot of cases. It drives your muscles to go harder than they normally would and it also depletes magnesium which is vital for muscle function, particularly relaxation.
It's been a little while since you all have discussed road race tactics. Maybe others agree 🤷🏼
I'll be doing as many road races as I'm able in the early season this year to prep, so we'll have plenty of that in the near future!
- Jonathan
Yeah we need XC race tactics
Nate has been doing way too many tubeless tire installs.
Have to say I'm not a fan of the AI thumbnails. You should pay a real artist or photographer imo
The type of calories you eat also matters very much. Calories are not created equal.
Nath’s lost weight for sure. Hasn’t he?