Another quick correction just for clarity for new players, dealing damage to a creature doesn't reduce its toughness. There are ways of reducing a creatures toughness but that's not what's happening here. The way it's looked at is the following. A creature has x toughness, if that creature is dealt damage equal or greater than its toughness, it will die as a state based action (providing it's not indestructible or has gained toughness like goyf would in this scenario).
As a relatively new player, I have a question about a state-based action that goes in the opposite direction. Say I have Queen Allenal of Ruadach on the field (power and toughness equal to number of creatures I control) alongside one 1/1 elf. Allenal is 2/2. The opponent casts Smash to Dust, dealing 1 damage to each of my creatures. This is enough to kill the elf, but not Allenal, per her toughness. However, when the elf isn’t on the battlefield anymore, her toughness is 1, and the 1 damage is lethal. So does the state based action for that 1 damage resolve simultaneously for Allenal and the elf, leaving her alive, or does it resolve after the elf enters the graveyard, making the damage against her lethal?
@@zacharypoplawski1076 [Slightly pedantic sidenote, "resolve" is something that only objects on the stack (spells and abilities) do. State-based actions don't "resolve", they just kinda happen.] If we look at the relevant entry in the Comprehensive Rules (704.3), it says the following: "Whenever a player would get priority, the game checks for any of the listed conditions for state-based actions, then performs all applicable state-based actions simultaneously as a single event. *If any state-based actions are performed as a result of a check, the check is repeated;* otherwise all triggered abilities that are waiting to be put on the stack are put on the stack, then the check is repeated. Once no more state-based actions have been performed as the result of a check and no triggered abilities are waiting to be put on the stack, the appropriate player gets priority." So if I'm reading this right (and I might well not be, I'm not a judge): After Smash to Dust finishes resolving and goes to the graveyard, the game 1) checks for state-based actions, 2) sees that your Elf has lethal damage marked on it, 3) destroys the Elf as a SBA, 4) performs another check for SBAs, 5) sees that Allenal has lethal damage marked on it, and finally, 6) destroys Allenal as a SBA. Then the game would check for SBAs again, and presumably not find any it needs to perform. If your opponent's spell resolving or your elves dying triggered any triggered abilities, they would go on the stack now (prompting another round of checks for potential state-based actions). Finally, the turn player gets priority. tl,dr: The Elf and Allenal both die. They technically do so slightly apart from one another, but not in a way that matters. Probably.
Another small correction/clarification: As a rule, once a card starts resolving, state-based actions aren't checked until a card finishes resolving. A card finishes resolving (typically) by going to the graveyard. Then, and only then, as the game is about to move to the active player gaining priority, can the game check state-based actions. This is a somewhat easier rule-of-thumb for many people to follow and can help explain this (and similar state-based interactions) to newer players.
That's how I'd understand it as well. I don't see the setting of Tarmogoyf going to 0 as it's not really happening that way the card is resolving, part of the resolution is 3 damage being dealt, and part of the resolution is the card going to the graveyard and part of the resolution is tarmogoyf's checking the value of the graveyard. Now you could say prior to the card being cast the Tarmogoyf has */*+1 where star is 2 card types in the graveyard. But if you're trying to calculate the tarmogoyf's value before checking it's based state then you'd kind of be saying well the tarmogoyf went to -2 since reading the tarmogoyf's * based value is part of reading it's based state. if you're not then you're having to complete reading through all the actions in order in which checking for the death state would result in read a value of 1. At no point do you really read a value of 0 as explained in the video. Even though you could note a value of /3 by checking it's value beforehand the tarmogoyf's value in a very real sense is */*+1
Yeah. More specifically, the wording in the comp rules is that state based actions are checked whenever a player *would* get priority, which is to say that if any state based actions occur, those happen *instead* of any player gaining priority. Then, if any state based actions occurred, the process starts over and the game checks for state based actions again. Once it checks but no state based actions occur (and no triggers are waiting to be put on the stack), the player receives priority.
@@JStack I literally had an interaction today on Arena that was the same as in the video when I was wiping the board with a Mayhem Devil and a Cauldron Familiar/Witch's Oven sac loop and an opponent's creature hit 0 toughness but ended up needing an extra ping to kill it because of a state based action I didn't realize worked like it did. I'm glad the video came out today because I was willing to chalk it up to some sort of weird sequencing bug in the game and would have forgotten about it by tomorrow.
Its popular joke among mtg judges. Few years ago somebody went viral with his mug that had image of gun and mtg card and text: "Guns dont kill goyf state based effect do."
Big agree from me too. Even something as simple as a block-sac has always annoyed me, but the rules allow for it so that's that. Let's be honest... it's these technicalities that make MTG what it is!
It only gets really funny once you enter Humility-territory. If you want your locag Judge to hate you ask him for all possible interactions "Rules Lawyer" can have.
It makes sense if you think about it this way: a “spell” when cast is just the verbal/somatic/material components of the spell itself, made real/manifested by the combination of these things with the mana the planeswalker who cast it has channeled. As soon as the action of “casting” the spell has finished, the spell is now manifested as an actual thing, and the components of it go to the graveyard. Therefore, since the Tarmogoyf gains toughness and strength through the now-lost essence of the different types of spells that have been cast thus far, it can survive the manifestation of the spell itself. I guess that doesn’t really explain why “damage” is different from “loss of toughness” but I guess maybe it could be visualized as a physical thing/energy flying towards the ‘Goyf vs some kind of enervation that’s not possible to react to. Shrug. It’s a cool thought experiment even if it’s really just a result of wonky rules and technicalities 🤪
@Ache of Rectum 17 times 5 (I assume, correct me if I’m wrong) times 2 is 170. That’s almost enough for three full price video games. It’s probably not so bad if you’ve already spent over 1,000 on cards, but it’s not trivial by any means.
I figured this would be the case, but ai wouldn't have been able to explain why. My explanation would be "as you cast bolt, your card hits the grave and as a result, goyf gets the +1 toughness, and would survive it," not even going into state based actions. Cool to know I wouldn't have flubbed that ruling in a game tho!
One instance where it's important to know that a spell hits the graveyard "after" its resolution is with the card beacon-bolt. It deals damage equal to the number of instants and sorceries in your graveyard, and it does not count toward itself because it's not in the graveyard yet. 🙂👍
@@potatospartan6056 "At the time that it's cast, that number is set to how many is in your grave" is how my brain would see that, but a very valid point to bring up. I'm not sure how I differentiate them, it just feels different reading goyf vs beacon bolt. Like if you cast something pertaining to cards in hand and then a couple card draw instants, it's the same thing where you're not changing the effect of the spell once it's put onto the stack. I've had a few tall ones where I asked everyone else the order of things and creatures dying/being destroyed was always the very last thing resolved (other than death triggers ofc) so it made sense to me that goyf wod survive.
@@guyinthecorner0 Not sure if this is what you were getting at, but to clarify, modifying the number of cards in your hand/library/graveyard DOES affect cards that rely on it while they're on the stack. For instance, if I use the example above and cast Beacon Bolt with four instants & sorceries in my yard, it would be four damage if resolved as-is. If I mill four cards in response to my own Beacon Bolt and two of them are instants, Beacon Bolt now does six damage. The reason it doesn't count itself is because the card itself doesn't go to the graveyard until after resolution. Functionally similar to what you were saying, but could change how things play out as you get into more complex interactions. There are some cards that set the value when the card is cast, though - X cost spells, the modes chosen for cards like Cryptic Command, and cards that specifically say to set a value on cast rather than resolution.
My first standard tournament. I burned a goyf(was either magma jet or arc lightning) can't remember but I was so fucking pissed when I found out this interaction lmao
Tarmagoyf's toughness is similar to a quantum state, although it is theoretically a number like 3, you can only prove that by checking it, and you can only check during state-based actions (at which time if damage >= toughness -> it dies).
This is only true if there isn’t another instant in any player’s graveyard. And State Based Actions are double checked before Triggers, which are double checked before active player gets priority.
@@pintlemounted If there is an instant and, lets say, a sorcery in all graveyards, hitting a Tarmogoyf with a Lithtning Bolt won't increase its thoghness, becaus it was already 2/3.
1:40 The Goyf's toughness doesn't go to 0. It still has 3 toughness, and 3 damage. If damage is higher than or equal to the toughness of a creature without Indestructible, it dies as a state-based action. It's different to losing toughness, where Indestructible doesn't matter.
If a creature does die by losing toughness would it die sooner? Say the interaction was exactly the same except lightning bolt gave -3/-3, would it still wait to check and survive?
@@MidoriTheAwesome No, it dies at the exact same check. The game checks if the damage each creature has is more than or equal to its toughness, if true, the creature dies. Dying to toughness loss happens because the game checks if the damage on the creature is more than or equal to 0, which is always true. The difference just matters here because some effects check for a creature's toughness -- and this doesn't change with damage.
@@MaavBR That is not how dying to toughness loss happens, they're entirely separate checks and even in a world where a creature could be permanently marked with damage >= toughness (which can now happen on Arena via Uthgardt Fury) indestructible would still keep the creature alive. If you're going to correct the video on a messy explanation that reaches the intended end result you should make sure that your explanation is watertight, too.
Yugioh has a similar deal with cards going into the graveyard before fully resolving, which allows for effect negation of cards in the GY before the chain (stack) ends, as well as cards being able to activate effects that sacrifice themselves as a cost while being negated on the field.
Just a small clarification because there were issues at my local FNM recently due to this misconception: damage does not decrease a creature's toughness. There is a state-based action to destroy creatures with lethal damage marked, and there is a different state-based action to put creatures with toughness
Fun fact the Oracle text on boros charm actually includes planeswalkers!! A lot of the text on burn spells include “any target” or “player or planeswalker” but it’s not written on the actual card. I hope you get a judge call. Have fun out there.
That's because they errata'd every instance of "target player" to include Planeswalkers as a valid target and errata'd every instance of "target creature or player" to "any target." with respect to burn. This was because originally, damage pointed at a player could be redirected to the Planeswalker at the caster's discretion, so they just decided to errata the cards directly to make it more clean for play. Used to be that if you wanted to hit a Planeswalker with burn, you had to target the player first. As a point of order, Boros Charm has been reprinted and the reprint includes the "or Planeswalker" text. He's just showing the original print which was made before the errata.
A version of this also works with a non-delirium unholy heat and a DRC. Use the heat on your own DRC and you can gain delirium for your DRC because it sees four types in your GY but heat can't see itself in the GY when you cast it. Or something like that. I just know it works 😅
...and so they throw a goddam' lightning bolt at me! And here I am at 3 toughness! - Well gee, Goyf, how did you survive? - Didn't, got killed... aha-ha-ha, you should've seen your face right now!
He's not saying it gets a +1 before the spell resolves: he's saying that resolving the spell with Tarmogoyf at 0 toughness does not kill it. What kills it is after when you check the state of Tarmogoyf as the player gains priority. At that point you now check if the toughness is 1 or more or 0. By that point Lightning Bolt is in the graveyard and Tarmogoyf has 1 more toughness. Taking damage does not kill a creature, checking its status once priority passes is when it is killed. A spell resolves prior to that.
I logiced out that it wouldn't die for a similar reason just not the correct rules, the way I figured it wouldn't is due to the nature of the stack (for those that don't know, First in= Last out) by assuming the spell itself hits the grave while the effect of the spell is still on the stack and then goyf triggers because of a new spell type in grave buffing itself before the Bolt damages the goyf making it a 3/4 before the Bolt even resolves and therefor having enough toughness to face tank the Bolt, it's like that joke with math "you did the complete wrong formula but got the correct answer"
im still a little confused ngl, i thought it went like this cast bolt responses? resolution of bolt tarm dies during resolution? so one of two things is happening here in my mind for this to work that way: 1. either bolt goes the graveyard officially to be checked by stuff like tarm during resolution or something 2. or the bolts effect doesnt really trigger until after resolution either way i think in my common logic it should be; thing has 3, i shoot 3, thing dies
Neither of those are quite what happens. Here's how it goes Cast Bolt (Pass priority) State based actions are checked Responses? (none) Resolution of Bolt: Tarmogoyf takes 3 damage Bolt goes to graveyard (Active player gets priority) State based actions are checked: Tarmogoyf has 4 toughness and has taken 3 damage, so it doesn't die. Active player may continue whatever phase they were in So as you can see, the effect of Lightning Bolt (deal 3 damage) happens during resolution. After resolution, it goes to the graveyard. Note that nobody gets priority between resolution and the card going to the graveyard. After Lightning Bolt has gone to the graveyard, the active player gets priority and state based actions are checked.
Same reason that if you blink an archaeomancer with a ghostly flicker, you can get your flicker back to hand. It goes to the graveyard before anything resolves. That about right?
Good explanation. One tip for viewers though: at tournaments don't play with foils and non foils in a deck. You can get a 'marked cards' DQ because of the pringle effect.
@@aristotlespupil136 I did my own research. As long as a foil does not curl to a point where you can tell its a foiled card then it is legal. And thats only in a mixed deck and applies to the non-foils being essentially marked as well. Don't play with bent cards or use some good sleeves is my opinion and thats how I play anyway.
@@PH03NIX96using good sleeves isn't enough. Next major tournament I go to if my opponent shuffles my deck instead of cutting it I'm calling a judge (last time my opponents would shuffle my deck then call a judge on me for having marked cards to try and take a free win.)
man! I discover new things everyday with magic... and I play since a long time XD but some interactions are so obscure sometimes that when you're in front of them you're like "huuuuuum ok, what should happen right now?" yeahyeahyeah... tarmo and bolt are staple modern I know but I play only ultra casual u.u not that I coulnd't play competitive, it's more that I don't really care and have fun with friends so, we don't often use powerhouse cards (gotta play those janky 24 cards combo!) anyway! reminded me of the time I discovered that enchanting against a color would remove enchants of that color :D and how you could "target" Narset with a pacifism
Yeah this is how it works, in another example if u are at 10 life with 1 death shadow and your opponent attacks with two 5/5s and u block one your death shadow will live even if it took 5 damage as a 3/3. The 5/5 that got through puts you down to 5 life making the deaths shadow a 8/8 and only having been assigned 5 damage it would live
To simplify the explanation: Tarm can't have been dealt damage yet if bolt hasn't resolved yet. Bolt can't have resolved yet if it isn't in the grave yet. Bolt goes to the grave as part of resolving. So at the point where Tarm takes 3 damage, its toughness will be 4.
Ah, I see. I thought it was going to be like "the instant goes to graveyard before damage is dealt somehow", but that's not it. It's "the creature doesn't check to see that it's damage is fatal until the instant is already in the graveyard".
Would it be wrong to say that the "toughness check" doesn't happen until lightning bolt is in the graveyard(resolved)? Maybe not the most rule lawyer-y way to say it, but to get the general idea across? Also if there was a card that would cause a player to gain life based on cards in graveyard, would they be able to survive a lightning bolt at 3 life?
Yes, because it has to be different card types. If there's already an instant, then Lightning Bolt won't increase toughness and therefore WILL kill Goyf. On the flipside, using a sorcery to deal 3 damage would now let it survive, as there are no sorceries in your example.
TL:DR As Lightning bolt resolves to do damage Tarmagoyfs STATIC ability checks to see what value it has AS it takes the damage, which as the damage resolves Lightning bolt is now in the grave making the unique # 3. goyf lives with 1
Okay so I have a question and I feel like it’s related to this. If I cast a spell such as displace or ghostly flicker and one of the targets is an archaeomancer, will those cards be targetable and in the graveyard when the archaeomamcer’s trigger is on the stack?
Yes, because that spell finishes resolving (and as such would be put into its owner's graveyard) before Archaeomancer's triggered ability is put on the stack. Archaeomancer's rulings actually answer this very question
Sorry if my commend posted twice, yt is a bit buggy. Doesnt LB go to the graveyard before it's effect resolves? meaning LB is cast targeting Tarmagoyf > it goes to the stack and the graveyard > enemy gets priority with LB in graveyard and Goyf at 4 toughness > LB resolves, dealing 3 damage
Nope, a cast spell is on the stack until it resolves and enters the graveyard. BUT there is no "death check" for the tarmogoyf until after the spell resolves AND enters the graveyard.
Should be easier to understand from the other perspective because "priority" is kind of confusing. The spell has to resolve for the effect to do any damage. When the spell resolves it goes to the graveyard, at that point the damage against the creature is checked to see if it is lethal. Which at that point it no longer is.
Similar Situation: I have had so many players block my Serra Ascendant when I'm at 29 life and then be confused when it doesn't die and instead becomes a 6/6 flyer.
@@ascendchan since it has lifelink, damage and the life gain occur at the same time so when it would check if it has received enough damage to die it sees that I now have 30 life so it gets +5/+5 and flying and now does not have lethal damage.
@@parkerjap im still trying to understand this whole concept. So since both actions happen simultaniously, why does the lifegain take precidence over your creature dying? Or I guess, what EXACTLY happens at the same time?
@@ascendchan the damage and lifegain happen at the same time. I'm not a judge so not one hundred percent certain but since the buff on Serra ascendant is a static effect it takes place immediately before state based actions including checking for lethal damage.
Ironically, no. Fury doesnt cause problems with killing goyf. Assuming you're refering to it's evoke cost and sacrifice requirement, the ruling on evoke is that it causes 2 enter the battlefield effects. In the case of fury, the damage, and the sacrifice. You chose which one on the stack resolves first. Resolution happens, statebased actions are checked, priority passes, then the sacrifice resolves, state based actions are checked, priority passes.
Using artifact creatures or enchantment creatures in a strong jund meta is a tough decision as you provide card types that are not common in the archtype
Just checking because i dont really understand things most of the time. It is because there is no instant cards in the graveyards right? Like, if there was already an instant in one of the graveyards instead of the land that was there in the video, the Tarmogoyf would die.
When explaining the rules, it helps to have your terminology correct. Damage doesn't reduce toughness. A creature dies in various ways, and one of those is by taking damage equal to or above its toughness. A card like Nameless inversion would reduce the toughness by three, but not lightning bolt.
You know what is a fun interaction with Tarmogoyf? Warping Wail with 0 cards in all GYs. Since Warping Wail exiles on resolution and not when state based actions are checked, it has 1 toughness and gets exiled before warping wail ever hits the GY.
Wouldn't that just be the case for any card that removes Goyf without needing to interact with toughness directly though? Something like Fleshpulper Giant or Ghastly Demise?
@@matthewjackman8410 That would be the case. The reason I mention Warping Wail is because you're more likely to see this interaction happening as both Goyf and Warping Wail occasionally see modern play. I also believe it to be interesting because it requires exactly zero cards to be in either graveyard to work.
warping wail is 1 power or toughness, as such, 0-1 cards in graveyards allows it to work. but you aren't wrong (i know its a long time ago to fact check this, but my main deck is colorless and i cannot let this leave... i'm sorry)
I think the most annoying thing about it would be like... Trying to explain WHY that's a thing. I can't even think of how the game would break if state based effects had different timing on them, but this is one of the only times I can think of that brings state based effects and when they occur to the forefront. It's just easier to assume people are douching you over and making stuff up to benefit their friends or specifically beat you down, even though that's not the case. I think a lot of players might like to know what decisions led to the timing of state based effects. In the end, this is just another way to tell that Tarmagoyf is the only good Green card in Magic.
One thing that you should have clarirfied is that Goyf's toughness doesn't matter, what matters are the super types fhe kind of cards in the graveyard: Sorcery, Land, etc, so even if the Goyf is already 2/3 but you play a spell targetting him that has a matching super type in the graveyard, it would die. Also, ach! Hans! Run! It's the Hashep Oasis!
So if there was a lightning bolt variant with extra text like "deal 3 damage to any target, you may scry 1", would that "may" clause be considered a time where you could take a state-based action?
@@lifeiaskedfor Well just as you said, no, not everyhing happens at once, it happens in the order written in the card, and in some cases this is really relevant
Tarmagoyf checks all graveyards, not just your own, so in the example in the video it doesn't matter who cast the spell. It will still increase Goyf's toughness.
I would say yes and no. While there are certainly a ton more mechanics and keywords nowadays, many of the core workings of the game have been simplified. Damage on the stack, mana burn, vague and oddly worded cards, interrupts.... Don't even get me started on batches!
Another quick correction just for clarity for new players, dealing damage to a creature doesn't reduce its toughness. There are ways of reducing a creatures toughness but that's not what's happening here. The way it's looked at is the following.
A creature has x toughness, if that creature is dealt damage equal or greater than its toughness, it will die as a state based action (providing it's not indestructible or has gained toughness like goyf would in this scenario).
whereas something like witch's vengeance does reduce toughness, right?
@@Deloxo yes
also very important, reducing a creature's toughness to 0 sends it to the graveyard regardless of its indestructibility
As a relatively new player, I have a question about a state-based action that goes in the opposite direction.
Say I have Queen Allenal of Ruadach on the field (power and toughness equal to number of creatures I control) alongside one 1/1 elf. Allenal is 2/2. The opponent casts Smash to Dust, dealing 1 damage to each of my creatures. This is enough to kill the elf, but not Allenal, per her toughness. However, when the elf isn’t on the battlefield anymore, her toughness is 1, and the 1 damage is lethal. So does the state based action for that 1 damage resolve simultaneously for Allenal and the elf, leaving her alive, or does it resolve after the elf enters the graveyard, making the damage against her lethal?
@@zacharypoplawski1076 [Slightly pedantic sidenote, "resolve" is something that only objects on the stack (spells and abilities) do. State-based actions don't "resolve", they just kinda happen.]
If we look at the relevant entry in the Comprehensive Rules (704.3), it says the following:
"Whenever a player would get priority, the game checks for any of the listed conditions for state-based actions, then performs all applicable state-based actions simultaneously as a single event. *If any state-based actions are performed as a result of a check, the check is repeated;* otherwise all triggered abilities that are waiting to be put on the stack are put on the stack, then the check is repeated. Once no more state-based actions have been performed as the result of a check and no triggered abilities are waiting to be put on the stack, the appropriate player gets priority."
So if I'm reading this right (and I might well not be, I'm not a judge): After Smash to Dust finishes resolving and goes to the graveyard, the game 1) checks for state-based actions, 2) sees that your Elf has lethal damage marked on it, 3) destroys the Elf as a SBA, 4) performs another check for SBAs, 5) sees that Allenal has lethal damage marked on it, and finally, 6) destroys Allenal as a SBA.
Then the game would check for SBAs again, and presumably not find any it needs to perform. If your opponent's spell resolving or your elves dying triggered any triggered abilities, they would go on the stack now (prompting another round of checks for potential state-based actions). Finally, the turn player gets priority.
tl,dr: The Elf and Allenal both die. They technically do so slightly apart from one another, but not in a way that matters.
Probably.
Tarmogoyf + Lightning Bolt: there’s a complicated rules interaction that explains why it doesn’t die.
Bloodbraid Elf + Boros Charm: reading the card explains the card
Both types of magic players in one comment
@@Humatra as a cascade player, we are happy. We hate ourselves and you.
RTFC
Another small correction/clarification: As a rule, once a card starts resolving, state-based actions aren't checked until a card finishes resolving. A card finishes resolving (typically) by going to the graveyard. Then, and only then, as the game is about to move to the active player gaining priority, can the game check state-based actions. This is a somewhat easier rule-of-thumb for many people to follow and can help explain this (and similar state-based interactions) to newer players.
its similar to the "took a ton of damage but then gained life, for a second youre at 0 but instantly gain it back."
_Permanent_ cards don't typically resolve by going to the graveyard :)
That's how I'd understand it as well. I don't see the setting of Tarmogoyf going to 0 as it's not really happening that way the card is resolving, part of the resolution is 3 damage being dealt, and part of the resolution is the card going to the graveyard and part of the resolution is tarmogoyf's checking the value of the graveyard. Now you could say prior to the card being cast the Tarmogoyf has */*+1 where star is 2 card types in the graveyard. But if you're trying to calculate the tarmogoyf's value before checking it's based state then you'd kind of be saying well the tarmogoyf went to -2 since reading the tarmogoyf's * based value is part of reading it's based state. if you're not then you're having to complete reading through all the actions in order in which checking for the death state would result in read a value of 1. At no point do you really read a value of 0 as explained in the video. Even though you could note a value of /3 by checking it's value beforehand the tarmogoyf's value in a very real sense is */*+1
Very minor correction: State based actions are checked *before* a player would get priority.
Thank you for this. Also makes some Arena interactions make some more sense to me even when full control turned on
Yeah. More specifically, the wording in the comp rules is that state based actions are checked whenever a player *would* get priority, which is to say that if any state based actions occur, those happen *instead* of any player gaining priority. Then, if any state based actions occurred, the process starts over and the game checks for state based actions again. Once it checks but no state based actions occur (and no triggers are waiting to be put on the stack), the player receives priority.
@@JStack I literally had an interaction today on Arena that was the same as in the video when I was wiping the board with a Mayhem Devil and a Cauldron Familiar/Witch's Oven sac loop and an opponent's creature hit 0 toughness but ended up needing an extra ping to kill it because of a state based action I didn't realize worked like it did. I'm glad the video came out today because I was willing to chalk it up to some sort of weird sequencing bug in the game and would have forgotten about it by tomorrow.
@@chasm9557 i hate cat oven combo
@@kaiseremotion854 I like aristocrats stuff, but I get it's not for everybody. I hate stax and control myself.
This happened to me. I wanted to kill a Goyf with a Bolt, but my opponent pointed this out. My deck was already outclassed, so this was demoralizing.
..? As it makes almost no sense to me, why 8thplace want to bolt his own 'goyf, why can't you bolt your opponents 'goyf, when it is 2/3..?
@@freireisender2
Goyf looks at all graveyards
L1 Judge here and this is my favorite saying: Bolt does not kill tarmogoyf, state based actions do.
Remember folks: damage doesn't kill creatures, State Base Action do.
Underrated comment.
Its popular joke among mtg judges. Few years ago somebody went viral with his mug that had image of gun and mtg card and text: "Guns dont kill goyf state based effect do."
Even more specifically, the rules of the game are what's doing it.....
@@AggressiveLemur That's actually less specific.
Brings back memories when my friend tried to Tarfire a Goyf on stream at an Open. Did not go the way he wanted.
Bet it made for a nice stream though ;)
The only thing magic players seem to love more than correcting other people's understanding of the game is being wrong while doing so.
sometimes mtg feels like a game only a lawyer would enjoy. this feels like absolute bullshit even though its correct
honestly, big agree. I love magic, but geez it can be absolutely inane when some of its more obscure rules come into play.
Big agree from me too. Even something as simple as a block-sac has always annoyed me, but the rules allow for it so that's that. Let's be honest... it's these technicalities that make MTG what it is!
It only gets really funny once you enter Humility-territory. If you want your locag Judge to hate you ask him for all possible interactions "Rules Lawyer" can have.
It makes sense if you think about it this way: a “spell” when cast is just the verbal/somatic/material components of the spell itself, made real/manifested by the combination of these things with the mana the planeswalker who cast it has channeled. As soon as the action of “casting” the spell has finished, the spell is now manifested as an actual thing, and the components of it go to the graveyard. Therefore, since the Tarmogoyf gains toughness and strength through the now-lost essence of the different types of spells that have been cast thus far, it can survive the manifestation of the spell itself. I guess that doesn’t really explain why “damage” is different from “loss of toughness” but I guess maybe it could be visualized as a physical thing/energy flying towards the ‘Goyf vs some kind of enervation that’s not possible to react to.
Shrug. It’s a cool thought experiment even if it’s really just a result of wonky rules and technicalities 🤪
Dress down and magus of the moon ruined an fnm in my city
This video was informative, AND inspired me to finally buy 5 of each unstable land.
I got myself 17 of each so now I'm set no matter what I draft!
@Ache of Rectum Thats the dream, but they're so expensive 😫
@Ache of Rectum
17 times 5 (I assume, correct me if I’m wrong) times 2 is 170. That’s almost enough for three full price video games.
It’s probably not so bad if you’ve already spent over 1,000 on cards, but it’s not trivial by any means.
I figured this would be the case, but ai wouldn't have been able to explain why. My explanation would be "as you cast bolt, your card hits the grave and as a result, goyf gets the +1 toughness, and would survive it," not even going into state based actions. Cool to know I wouldn't have flubbed that ruling in a game tho!
One instance where it's important to know that a spell hits the graveyard "after" its resolution is with the card beacon-bolt. It deals damage equal to the number of instants and sorceries in your graveyard, and it does not count toward itself because it's not in the graveyard yet. 🙂👍
@@potatospartan6056 "At the time that it's cast, that number is set to how many is in your grave" is how my brain would see that, but a very valid point to bring up. I'm not sure how I differentiate them, it just feels different reading goyf vs beacon bolt. Like if you cast something pertaining to cards in hand and then a couple card draw instants, it's the same thing where you're not changing the effect of the spell once it's put onto the stack. I've had a few tall ones where I asked everyone else the order of things and creatures dying/being destroyed was always the very last thing resolved (other than death triggers ofc) so it made sense to me that goyf wod survive.
@@guyinthecorner0 Not sure if this is what you were getting at, but to clarify, modifying the number of cards in your hand/library/graveyard DOES affect cards that rely on it while they're on the stack. For instance, if I use the example above and cast Beacon Bolt with four instants & sorceries in my yard, it would be four damage if resolved as-is. If I mill four cards in response to my own Beacon Bolt and two of them are instants, Beacon Bolt now does six damage. The reason it doesn't count itself is because the card itself doesn't go to the graveyard until after resolution. Functionally similar to what you were saying, but could change how things play out as you get into more complex interactions.
There are some cards that set the value when the card is cast, though - X cost spells, the modes chosen for cards like Cryptic Command, and cards that specifically say to set a value on cast rather than resolution.
Dude that foil full art bolt is cool as hell.
Oh yeah? Well I think YOU, are cool as hell.
My first standard tournament. I burned a goyf(was either magma jet or arc lightning) can't remember but I was so fucking pissed when I found out this interaction lmao
Tarmagoyf's toughness is similar to a quantum state, although it is theoretically a number like 3, you can only prove that by checking it, and you can only check during state-based actions (at which time if damage >= toughness -> it dies).
This one video helped me so much, the state based actions thing I’m not a new player but I’m new enough to where that makes a lot of sense thank you!
This kinda reminds me of how I figured out a few years ago, that -1/-1 counters actually can kill creatures with indestructible.
Well -1-1 counters doesnt say "destroy....." So indestructible doesnt xount 😂
Just because there’s an explanation doesn’t mean the explanation isn’t stupid and completely counterintuitive
This is the same type of reaction I had when I found out the world was flat
Dude, this is gonna be real useful when i go to my first modern tournament in 2016
This is only true if there isn’t another instant in any player’s graveyard.
And State Based Actions are double checked before Triggers, which are double checked before active player gets priority.
If there was an instant in the graveyard already then the goyf would already have been a 3/4 and this would have worked even less
@@pintlemounted not if the only types in a graveyard were an instant and x, ya know what I mean?
@@thesenate918 I mean, yes. But in this specific situation there is a land and a sorcery in one graveyard. If there was an instant in the other, then…
@@pintlemounted absolutely, but I mean the context of op's comment was what I was referring to
@@pintlemounted If there is an instant and, lets say, a sorcery in all graveyards, hitting a Tarmogoyf with a Lithtning Bolt won't increase its thoghness, becaus it was already 2/3.
1:40 The Goyf's toughness doesn't go to 0. It still has 3 toughness, and 3 damage.
If damage is higher than or equal to the toughness of a creature without Indestructible, it dies as a state-based action. It's different to losing toughness, where Indestructible doesn't matter.
If a creature does die by losing toughness would it die sooner? Say the interaction was exactly the same except lightning bolt gave -3/-3, would it still wait to check and survive?
@@MidoriTheAwesome No, it dies at the exact same check. The game checks if the damage each creature has is more than or equal to its toughness, if true, the creature dies.
Dying to toughness loss happens because the game checks if the damage on the creature is more than or equal to 0, which is always true.
The difference just matters here because some effects check for a creature's toughness -- and this doesn't change with damage.
@@MaavBR That is not how dying to toughness loss happens, they're entirely separate checks and even in a world where a creature could be permanently marked with damage >= toughness (which can now happen on Arena via Uthgardt Fury) indestructible would still keep the creature alive. If you're going to correct the video on a messy explanation that reaches the intended end result you should make sure that your explanation is watertight, too.
Yugioh has a similar deal with cards going into the graveyard before fully resolving, which allows for effect negation of cards in the GY before the chain (stack) ends, as well as cards being able to activate effects that sacrifice themselves as a cost while being negated on the field.
I bolt'd my turmagoyf for threshold tyvm. I knew full well that... PFFT... state based... pffft...
Gotta get that Nimble Mongoose up and running
Btw boros charm got the errata to allow it hit planeswakers, like you could with the redirection that was before the whole redirection thing.
True
The rules really became more clear after Magic Online came about and you could see every action and stack.
"I recognize the Council has made a decision, but given it's a stupid ass decision, I have elected to ignore it!"
Just a small clarification because there were issues at my local FNM recently due to this misconception: damage does not decrease a creature's toughness. There is a state-based action to destroy creatures with lethal damage marked, and there is a different state-based action to put creatures with toughness
bUT oN ArENa
I've played Boros charm for years. I NEVER realized it didn't target a creature....
Fun fact the Oracle text on boros charm actually includes planeswalkers!!
A lot of the text on burn spells include “any target” or “player or planeswalker” but it’s not written on the actual card.
I hope you get a judge call. Have fun out there.
That's because they errata'd every instance of "target player" to include Planeswalkers as a valid target and errata'd every instance of "target creature or player" to "any target." with respect to burn. This was because originally, damage pointed at a player could be redirected to the Planeswalker at the caster's discretion, so they just decided to errata the cards directly to make it more clean for play. Used to be that if you wanted to hit a Planeswalker with burn, you had to target the player first.
As a point of order, Boros Charm has been reprinted and the reprint includes the "or Planeswalker" text. He's just showing the original print which was made before the errata.
I've had to check the graveyard for an instant many times.
This interaction has nothing over the ol’ trampling over a deaths shadow
Goyf and Bolt: the classic way of explaining “Damage doesn’t kill creatures, State Based Actions kill creatures.”
A version of this also works with a non-delirium unholy heat and a DRC. Use the heat on your own DRC and you can gain delirium for your DRC because it sees four types in your GY but heat can't see itself in the GY when you cast it. Or something like that. I just know it works 😅
...and so they throw a goddam' lightning bolt at me! And here I am at 3 toughness!
- Well gee, Goyf, how did you survive?
- Didn't, got killed... aha-ha-ha, you should've seen your face right now!
The bigger question is what did IOK take from opponents hand? I assume a sorcery, otherwise it would already be more than 3 toughness.
How come taramagoif is getting an additional +1 before the spell even resolved?
He's not saying it gets a +1 before the spell resolves: he's saying that resolving the spell with Tarmogoyf at 0 toughness does not kill it. What kills it is after when you check the state of Tarmogoyf as the player gains priority. At that point you now check if the toughness is 1 or more or 0. By that point Lightning Bolt is in the graveyard and Tarmogoyf has 1 more toughness.
Taking damage does not kill a creature, checking its status once priority passes is when it is killed. A spell resolves prior to that.
I logiced out that it wouldn't die for a similar reason just not the correct rules, the way I figured it wouldn't is due to the nature of the stack (for those that don't know, First in= Last out) by assuming the spell itself hits the grave while the effect of the spell is still on the stack and then goyf triggers because of a new spell type in grave buffing itself before the Bolt damages the goyf making it a 3/4 before the Bolt even resolves and therefor having enough toughness to face tank the Bolt, it's like that joke with math "you did the complete wrong formula but got the correct answer"
im still a little confused ngl, i thought it went like this
cast bolt
responses?
resolution of bolt
tarm dies during resolution?
so one of two things is happening here in my mind for this to work that way:
1. either bolt goes the graveyard officially to be checked by stuff like tarm during resolution or something
2. or the bolts effect doesnt really trigger until after resolution
either way i think in my common logic it should be;
thing has 3, i shoot 3, thing dies
Neither of those are quite what happens. Here's how it goes
Cast Bolt
(Pass priority)
State based actions are checked
Responses? (none)
Resolution of Bolt: Tarmogoyf takes 3 damage
Bolt goes to graveyard
(Active player gets priority)
State based actions are checked: Tarmogoyf has 4 toughness and has taken 3 damage, so it doesn't die.
Active player may continue whatever phase they were in
So as you can see, the effect of Lightning Bolt (deal 3 damage) happens during resolution. After resolution, it goes to the graveyard. Note that nobody gets priority between resolution and the card going to the graveyard. After Lightning Bolt has gone to the graveyard, the active player gets priority and state based actions are checked.
@@Felixr2 ah okay thank you i was lost for a hot sec xD, i appreciate letting me know
Can you do a video explaining layers please
Back in the day this was Magnivove and Volcanic Hammer.
Double strike with trample and multiple blockers always gets me @_@
Same reason that if you blink an archaeomancer with a ghostly flicker, you can get your flicker back to hand. It goes to the graveyard before anything resolves. That about right?
Good explanation. One tip for viewers though: at tournaments don't play with foils and non foils in a deck. You can get a 'marked cards' DQ because of the pringle effect.
Sounds like some bullshit to me.
@@PH03NIX96 surprised me too, but was notified of this by a judge and tolled to replace the foils with regular versions at a tournament.
@@aristotlespupil136 I did my own research.
As long as a foil does not curl to a point where you can tell its a foiled card then it is legal.
And thats only in a mixed deck and applies to the non-foils being essentially marked as well.
Don't play with bent cards or use some good sleeves is my opinion and thats how I play anyway.
@@PH03NIX96 True, if they are flat there should be no problem. Just something be be aware of...
@@PH03NIX96using good sleeves isn't enough. Next major tournament I go to if my opponent shuffles my deck instead of cutting it I'm calling a judge (last time my opponents would shuffle my deck then call a judge on me for having marked cards to try and take a free win.)
But would effects that trigger on a creature taking lethal damage trigger?
Nope, because it doesn't take lethal damage.
man! I discover new things everyday with magic... and I play since a long time XD but some interactions are so obscure sometimes that when you're in front of them you're like "huuuuuum ok, what should happen right now?"
yeahyeahyeah... tarmo and bolt are staple modern I know but I play only ultra casual u.u
not that I coulnd't play competitive, it's more that I don't really care and have fun with friends so, we don't often use powerhouse cards (gotta play those janky 24 cards combo!)
anyway! reminded me of the time I discovered that enchanting against a color would remove enchants of that color :D and how you could "target" Narset with a pacifism
Thanks for explaining. Just started playing the rock and hoping to make someone scoop the same way lpl
damn that's a sick lightning bolt though
Yeah this is how it works, in another example if u are at 10 life with 1 death shadow and your opponent attacks with two 5/5s and u block one your death shadow will live even if it took 5 damage as a 3/3. The 5/5 that got through puts you down to 5 life making the deaths shadow a 8/8 and only having been assigned 5 damage it would live
To simplify the explanation:
Tarm can't have been dealt damage yet if bolt hasn't resolved yet.
Bolt can't have resolved yet if it isn't in the grave yet. Bolt goes to the grave as part of resolving.
So at the point where Tarm takes 3 damage, its toughness will be 4.
Ah, I see. I thought it was going to be like "the instant goes to graveyard before damage is dealt somehow", but that's not it. It's "the creature doesn't check to see that it's damage is fatal until the instant is already in the graveyard".
Would it be wrong to say that the "toughness check" doesn't happen until lightning bolt is in the graveyard(resolved)? Maybe not the most rule lawyer-y way to say it, but to get the general idea across?
Also if there was a card that would cause a player to gain life based on cards in graveyard, would they be able to survive a lightning bolt at 3 life?
I'm inclined to say yes to both :)
You actually forgot a card in this clear multi-step process. Hashep Oasis.
What if two card types that are in the graveyard are creature and instant specifically? Then does it die to bolt?
Yes, because it has to be different card types. If there's already an instant, then Lightning Bolt won't increase toughness and therefore WILL kill Goyf. On the flipside, using a sorcery to deal 3 damage would now let it survive, as there are no sorceries in your example.
TL:DR As Lightning bolt resolves to do damage Tarmagoyfs STATIC ability checks to see what value it has AS it takes the damage, which as the damage resolves Lightning bolt is now in the grave making the unique # 3. goyf lives with 1
Well, I learned something new today!
Okay so I have a question and I feel like it’s related to this. If I cast a spell such as displace or ghostly flicker and one of the targets is an archaeomancer, will those cards be targetable and in the graveyard when the archaeomamcer’s trigger is on the stack?
Yes, because that spell finishes resolving (and as such would be put into its owner's graveyard) before Archaeomancer's triggered ability is put on the stack. Archaeomancer's rulings actually answer this very question
Sorry if my commend posted twice, yt is a bit buggy.
Doesnt LB go to the graveyard before it's effect resolves? meaning
LB is cast targeting Tarmagoyf > it goes to the stack and the graveyard > enemy gets priority with LB in graveyard and Goyf at 4 toughness > LB resolves, dealing 3 damage
Nope, a cast spell is on the stack until it resolves and enters the graveyard. BUT there is no "death check" for the tarmogoyf until after the spell resolves AND enters the graveyard.
@@potatospartan6056 oh thanks, didn't know that
Isn't lifelink damage to an opponent's creature preventing damage also a state based action? I'm fairly certain it is but I want to be fully sure
Should be easier to understand from the other perspective because "priority" is kind of confusing. The spell has to resolve for the effect to do any damage. When the spell resolves it goes to the graveyard, at that point the damage against the creature is checked to see if it is lethal. Which at that point it no longer is.
So in short terms you need 2 lighting bolts to kill it.
Similar Situation: I have had so many players block my Serra Ascendant when I'm at 29 life and then be confused when it doesn't die and instead becomes a 6/6 flyer.
Ok, explanation?
@@ascendchan since it has lifelink, damage and the life gain occur at the same time so when it would check if it has received enough damage to die it sees that I now have 30 life so it gets +5/+5 and flying and now does not have lethal damage.
@@parkerjap im still trying to understand this whole concept. So since both actions happen simultaniously, why does the lifegain take precidence over your creature dying? Or I guess, what EXACTLY happens at the same time?
SteelIsHeavierThanFeathers.png
@@ascendchan the damage and lifegain happen at the same time. I'm not a judge so not one hundred percent certain but since the buff on Serra ascendant is a static effect it takes place immediately before state based actions including checking for lethal damage.
In a similar condition, can this happen with Fury? Suppose Goyf is a 3/4 with no creatures in grave.
Ironically, no. Fury doesnt cause problems with killing goyf.
Assuming you're refering to it's evoke cost and sacrifice requirement, the ruling on evoke is that it causes 2 enter the battlefield effects. In the case of fury, the damage, and the sacrifice. You chose which one on the stack resolves first. Resolution happens, statebased actions are checked, priority passes, then the sacrifice resolves, state based actions are checked, priority passes.
Judge!
I played Fleecemane Lion and priority was passed.
I'll sack my Emberhauler, put the trigger on the stack.
I paid five for monstrosity to make it proof from hex
@@williamchristensen7354 with the the damage on the stack, i block your emberhauler and my lion takes 4 damage
@@morgoth2425 th-cam.com/video/PQFPev7fab8/w-d-xo.html you missed the reference
why tarmogofy does not die to when Hashep Oasis is in the graveyard
Using artifact creatures or enchantment creatures in a strong jund meta is a tough decision as you provide card types that are not common in the archtype
Just checking because i dont really understand things most of the time. It is because there is no instant cards in the graveyards right? Like, if there was already an instant in one of the graveyards instead of the land that was there in the video, the Tarmogoyf would die.
Yes, correct. It counts the number of different card types, not the total number of cards.
I only watched this video because of full-art lightning bolt
I'm assuming that if one of the 2 card types in the graveyard was intant then it would die right?
Yup
When explaining the rules, it helps to have your terminology correct. Damage doesn't reduce toughness. A creature dies in various ways, and one of those is by taking damage equal to or above its toughness. A card like Nameless inversion would reduce the toughness by three, but not lightning bolt.
Not relevant to the subject of video but FYI Boros charm’s errata now allows it to hit planes walkers
If you have an Empyrial Archangel, then Boros Charm can deal damage to a creature
phewww that´s one of those where if i´d use that little trick in a local tournament most people would call me a liar
Imagine explaining this to a mono red player
As a commander player, you rearranging your graveyard made me angry.
Does this mean when I can an instant or sorcery the card hits the graveyard before it resolved?
The card is sent to the graveyard as a part of it resolving.
So what you’re saying is have an instant in grave before trying to bolt it.
An instant and up to only one other card type.
You know what is a fun interaction with Tarmogoyf? Warping Wail with 0 cards in all GYs. Since Warping Wail exiles on resolution and not when state based actions are checked, it has 1 toughness and gets exiled before warping wail ever hits the GY.
Wouldn't that just be the case for any card that removes Goyf without needing to interact with toughness directly though? Something like Fleshpulper Giant or Ghastly Demise?
@@matthewjackman8410 That would be the case. The reason I mention Warping Wail is because you're more likely to see this interaction happening as both Goyf and Warping Wail occasionally see modern play.
I also believe it to be interesting because it requires exactly zero cards to be in either graveyard to work.
warping wail is 1 power or toughness, as such, 0-1 cards in graveyards allows it to work. but you aren't wrong (i know its a long time ago to fact check this, but my main deck is colorless and i cannot let this leave... i'm sorry)
So what you’re saying is I should get a play set of Hashep Oasis?
Better get at least 10, to be safe
more of these
But can i subscribe with Boros Charm???
I'll allow it this time
I think the most annoying thing about it would be like... Trying to explain WHY that's a thing. I can't even think of how the game would break if state based effects had different timing on them, but this is one of the only times I can think of that brings state based effects and when they occur to the forefront.
It's just easier to assume people are douching you over and making stuff up to benefit their friends or specifically beat you down, even though that's not the case. I think a lot of players might like to know what decisions led to the timing of state based effects.
In the end, this is just another way to tell that Tarmagoyf is the only good Green card in Magic.
I made that mistake with boros charm too good to be true :D
just wait for MH3
Wait, you cracked a foothills for a basic forest?
This is only true if it's 3 toughness AND there are no instants on the graveyard already
Why would someone cast lightning bolt on their own creature?
Damage does not kill creatures state based actions do.
One thing that you should have clarirfied is that Goyf's toughness doesn't matter, what matters are the super types fhe kind of cards in the graveyard: Sorcery, Land, etc, so even if the Goyf is already 2/3 but you play a spell targetting him that has a matching super type in the graveyard, it would die.
Also, ach! Hans! Run! It's the Hashep Oasis!
this is still a thousand times less confusing than yugioh
"Not a Comedy Video"
I thought that was an irony so I was expecting a comedy video :/
So if there was a lightning bolt variant with extra text like "deal 3 damage to any target, you may scry 1", would that "may" clause be considered a time where you could take a state-based action?
No, no player gets priority or can do antyhing while a spell is resolving, only after it completes.
no, as the may scry 1 happens as the 3 damage happens. Cards effects happen all at once, commas and periods just note what order they go in
@@lifeiaskedfor Well just as you said, no, not everyhing happens at once, it happens in the order written in the card, and in some cases this is really relevant
@@Dsiefus Right, I think they meant to say they will all happen before anything else requiring priority happens.
why would u target ur own creature, if opponent bolts it the spell goes to his gy not yours. so what's the point XD ?!
no for real im curios 8th pls tell ^^
Tarmagoyf checks all graveyards, not just your own, so in the example in the video it doesn't matter who cast the spell. It will still increase Goyf's toughness.
Good Guy Dave explains noobs the game :)
But you already had priority. I don’t get it. Man why does Magic have to be needlessly confusing
Me explaining why magic is way more convoluted then yugioh half the time lol
Lightning bolt does not do 4 damage, that is why
This game became unnecessarily and ridiculously complicated since I played it first in 90's.
I would say yes and no.
While there are certainly a ton more mechanics and keywords nowadays, many of the core workings of the game have been simplified.
Damage on the stack, mana burn, vague and oddly worded cards, interrupts....
Don't even get me started on batches!
oh, the rules are bad. got it.
You see, the reason you are still in 8th place is that you are following the rules too honestly.
Lmao, he thinks jund is still playable in modern, poor man… . Oh wait, he can build jund, never mind😂😂