Sounds awesome. And I completely agree! Are you on MT or AT? Would be interesting to hear what you think about it after it goes in. The 4.88 on my MT is imo, already on the extreme side for a daily driver. By my calculations, 5.125 FD on a MT would result in 70mph in 6th gear at 3700RPM !
I completely agree. This 4.88 final drive means 78mph in 6th gear has the car revving at 4k! Since Oregon speed limits are capped at 65mph, that puts me at about 3.5kRPM when cruising. I would love to have at least 6th gear swapped for economy. 5th gear with the 4.88 tops out at redline at 111mph. So, the 6th gear being strictly for economy would let me keep the revs down and mpg up.
@@AlphaXGamingAXG i didn’t find the speedo to be off from what I saw and what I’ve read online on forums. What i did notice is if you use the LCD readout for mpg or gear # display, that WILL be off. I was able to correct the table entries for those using open flash tablet and romraider so they were adjusted appropriately.
Props for putting ambient temperature differences. That difference would probably be noticeable in our UK climes say if it was 8 degrees vs 14. Not sure at ~22 -> ~28 we don't spend much time round there!
Thanks! I know that the BRZ has tuning adjustment for timing based on IAT so I wanted it to be clear what the other potential advantages were in either case. That said, there are a lot of variables that were hard to control, especially with respect to my shift times. In retrospect after doing this video, I just ended up doing 1st, 2nd, and 3rd gear pulls from 2k to redline in a future one... to take shifting completely out of the comparison. Cheers!
I’ve heard it said before that the 4.8 final drive reduces our cars torque dip. Did you notice the torque dip less with this mod? I’m considering this to reduce it If not a supercharger or headers mod.
I have a stock JDM Dc5 type R FD 4.78 and a stock GT86 prefacelift FD 4.1. I drive them for daily. Dc5 feels much quicker and fun to drive though less fuel economy. However the GT86 FD 4.1 has its good side. When driving at NZ country road (similar to UK B road), GT86 is good for overtaking between 100-130km/h because the overtaken can be done with 3rd gear while DC5 need to shift to 4th during overtaken. Just my experience for your reference
I have IS250 with 3GRFSE should I go 4.88 or 4.3 is enough? What gearbox do you have there RA63/62? Can y oucomment on that a little bit please. Cheers
In my mind it was totally worth it. Watch my other video about the project cost. It is much more fun than before, IF you like shifting more and a little more push than before. The rear tires now, even in a straight line, experience a small amount of slip. It is much easier to push the back-end out now. My day-to-day fuel economy is only 1-2mpg less than it was when stock.
Agreed! they changed it up with the later manual models to include a 4.3 FD if I'm not mistaken... probably made the reported 0-60 time worse and lower overall gas mileage... but no one buying these cars cares about that. It's all about sideways smiles per gallon and driver engagement.
The speedometer reads from wheel speeds, not transmission output. So as long as your tires are the same diameter (and the stock diameter), the displayed speed between the two setups is correct.
Top speed with 4.88 should be about 145mph (calculated). I believe 143 is the rated top speed from the factory so you're not sacrificing your ability to hit that. In fact I would think you'd be able to get to it much easier because of the gearing. For comparison: First MY manual cars got the 4.1 and top out around 172mph. Later MY manuals got a 4.3 and that should be ~164. On a test track I've been on at 4000ft elevation, I could get up to about 124mph with the stock 4.1 and 137 on the 4.88.
It's hard to really compare because my shifting is a variable in this as well. You'll want to watch my other video where I actually break everything down like cost and how it has changed the feel of the car. At the end of the day... there's no added power to the car. Just the engine's ability to more easily rotate the wheels.
@@RRCsteve this is something id live to do to my own car. the larger FD means you can get more out of the lower end of the torque curve. basically translates to more acceleration but this also means you have more gear shifts on your way to 60, which is why it appears in this video like you hit 60 faster with the smaller FD. thats basically accurate and how it should be. this isnt something you would want to do for drag racing, its something you do for canyon carving / tracks with lots of curves, because it gives you more control over the torque range and thus more control over corner exit speeds. its two completely different kinds of driving. summary: for DRAG: fewer gears, smaller FD for AGILITY: more gears, larger FD the only real loss in terms of daily driving is the loss in highway gas efficiency, which as mentioned elsewhere can be mitigated greatly by switching out the 6th gear in the transmission to a smaller ratio (to create a smaller total ratio from the crank = more rpm at the wheel = better highway gas mileage). im not sure how much that would cost though. basically the cost of a transmission rebuild ?
What you miss about a higher FD is - its not all about time. Sure you get better 0-60, but what you really get is a higher reving car. If that is something you would derive endless joy from, who cares about how fast it is? Basically it makes the car feel like its supercharged. Since you don't own a fast car, but you do own a fun car... isn't that what you're looking for anyways? You want speeding tickets or near death experience smiles? You have a 6th gear, you'll be fine on the highway you'll just burn a shitload more gas.
Certainly for some this no longer makes it a daily driver. Other than having to shift a lot more often, 6th gear at 70mph is at ~3700RPM. That would make this car completely useless for anyone who regularly does freeway speeds.
@@PSIRockinOmega 3700 at 70 mph is HORRIBLE. I have the 4.3 from the kouki models and I do 3400 - 3500 at 70 and it is hell. noisy, harsh, horrible fuel economy. you gotta cruise like grandma at 60-65 tops to have a tolerable ride, especially on long drives.
It sounds like you watched the other video to this explaining the reasons for doing this mod. While there are options for similar dollar amounts which will provide more realized gain, that’s not what I was going for. The additional torque multiplication makes for kicking out the backend much easier without any changes which would potentially affect emissions.
If u stacked 2 cars up next to each other drag style, it would be much easier to see the difference. Heres an example of a 4.1 vs 4.67 FD /watch?v=qgWwfprYvI4
This is a video showing what happens when someone cant shift. the fact that there was mph dropoff during shifts completely defeats the purpose of this.
i dont know about "cant shift", it was just demonstrating a calm / safe shift. the reality is you dont want to do this if you are trying to win a drag race, you want fewer gears and a smaller FD for drag, because you want fewer shifts so that you have more time putting torque to the wheels. ideal drag setup would be 4 gears on the 4.1 or even a 3.9 you want the large FD and a lot of gears for a completely different kind of driving: corner slaying. aka canyon carving, aka track driving. the goal is to give you a more WIDE torque band, while sacrificing top speed. gives you more control over your corner entry (resistance) and exits (torque to pavement) how fast you shift is a issue that varies widely depending on your driving application, its not really a blame for why this video shows the 4.1 hitting 60 before the 4.8. the shifting time was the same across both, but there was an extra shift on the 4.88 before 60. thats always going to be a loss in time in that gap. period. btw this is why automatics are so popular in drag. you just spool up the torque converter (sacrifice off the line) and its 100% GO from there to the 1/4. manual transmission competetive brackets are ALL systematically slower times than any autotrans brackets in the same power range. always. thats the reason they are separated, even though its possible for a manual to actually be shifted as fast as an average auto (but not a really good auto. just to be clear.), its the torque/ clutch slip range, that really steals the power. in this application its simply a mistake to even bother looking at the 0 - 60. if you wanted to see the advantage that the 4.1 gives, you would need to go to like 160 to actually see it. the 4.1 will WAY outperform the 4.8 in the top range. this video CLEARLY shows how the 4.8 vastly outperforms the 4.1 in the low speed range (low speed acceleration). watch the 5-60 slow-mo portion, youll see it very clearly. 01:44
There's only one way to make the 86 engine terrific! A 10 psi 93 octane tuned turbo kit with a nice sized turbo that spools quick. Everything else is worthless
I agree that forced induction is the only way to get the car putting down power that everyone was expecting it was going to come with from the factory. Needless to say, my mission was to make the car more fun knowing I wanted to keep a reliable DD. Parts and install of the final driver is ~30% the cost of buying the Edelbrock supercharger kit. Which does seem like the overall cost for this project was fairly expensive considering no actual additional power was gained. The important part though is that, I feel more involved with the drive and I wasn't adding any new parts that could go wrong.
Shambler I paid $3900 for a SBD turbo with install and dyno tune here in Atlanta. I gained 140whp/120 wtq from spending that much! Best money I ever spent.
No. Going fast in a straight line was never what this car was about and adding boost only adds this as an additional capability. This platform can go faster around a *real* track (ie. one with turns) for less power than most other performance cars. TRD took what was already good and improved upon that to make a sub-1min Tsukuba car with only 26hp more than stock. You can't put down a sub 1min lap in an R35, any model that's ever been sold, without suspension tuning, because all that power is for nothing if you have to scrub it off in the turns because the car is so heavy. That's also why you don't see record setting Mk IV Supra in Time Attack/Super Lap. They're better suited for the drag strip. And that's what this platform is about.
@@Bedey53 The time it took to write this you could have found ample documentation of the truth. The fact that you did not is typical of people who don't actually understand performance and engineering and consider stuff like The Demon to be more than it actually is.
This was best comparison of final drives. Having digital speed read out helps alot as well - to see speed differance.
No, the petrol in the stock is empty and with 4.88 is almost full
I wish someone had a video like this for Honda K-Series cars but this still gives me all the info I need haha
Very helpful and detailed video. I'm planning on going 4.875 in my FR-S. Thanks for posting.
Great stuff! I have a 5.125 FD about to go in soon. Staying NA having a shorter FD brings this car alive!
Sounds awesome. And I completely agree! Are you on MT or AT? Would be interesting to hear what you think about it after it goes in. The 4.88 on my MT is imo, already on the extreme side for a daily driver. By my calculations, 5.125 FD on a MT would result in 70mph in 6th gear at 3700RPM !
What would be great would be gear swaps for 5th and 6th to put highway cruising back in line with stock, if not better. Crazy expensive though.
I completely agree. This 4.88 final drive means 78mph in 6th gear has the car revving at 4k! Since Oregon speed limits are capped at 65mph, that puts me at about 3.5kRPM when cruising. I would love to have at least 6th gear swapped for economy. 5th gear with the 4.88 tops out at redline at 111mph. So, the 6th gear being strictly for economy would let me keep the revs down and mpg up.
I want a 4.9 ratio for my turbo rb build im doing lmao. Dont like speed but like lots of wheelspin so short ratio diff perfect
@@DhirC35 I went 4.92 on my honda f20 f2b swap. IT was perfect.
out of curiosity, did you notice the speedometer reading differently when you swapped FDR?
@@AlphaXGamingAXG i didn’t find the speedo to be off from what I saw and what I’ve read online on forums. What i did notice is if you use the LCD readout for mpg or gear # display, that WILL be off. I was able to correct the table entries for those using open flash tablet and romraider so they were adjusted appropriately.
Props for putting ambient temperature differences. That difference would probably be noticeable in our UK climes say if it was 8 degrees vs 14. Not sure at ~22 -> ~28 we don't spend much time round there!
Thanks! I know that the BRZ has tuning adjustment for timing based on IAT so I wanted it to be clear what the other potential advantages were in either case. That said, there are a lot of variables that were hard to control, especially with respect to my shift times. In retrospect after doing this video, I just ended up doing 1st, 2nd, and 3rd gear pulls from 2k to redline in a future one... to take shifting completely out of the comparison.
Cheers!
I’ve heard it said before that the 4.8 final drive reduces our cars torque dip. Did you notice the torque dip less with this mod? I’m considering this to reduce it If not a supercharger or headers mod.
I have a stock JDM Dc5 type R FD 4.78 and a stock GT86 prefacelift FD 4.1. I drive them for daily. Dc5 feels much quicker and fun to drive though less fuel economy. However the GT86 FD 4.1 has its good side. When driving at NZ country road (similar to UK B road), GT86 is good for overtaking between 100-130km/h because the overtaken can be done with 3rd gear while DC5 need to shift to 4th during overtaken. Just my experience for your reference
Could you make a video that shows the Highway Speed/RPM in 6th gear?
Like... 6th gear at 50, 55, 60, 65, 70, 75, 80 MPH?
you can do the calculations, it's linear
Awesome video thanks!
I have IS250 with 3GRFSE should I go 4.88 or 4.3 is enough?
What gearbox do you have there RA63/62?
Can y oucomment on that a little bit please.
Cheers
Does it worth it? Numbers are a thing but behind the wheel is an other one. Do you have more fun and how does it affect fuel economy?
In my mind it was totally worth it. Watch my other video about the project cost. It is much more fun than before, IF you like shifting more and a little more push than before. The rear tires now, even in a straight line, experience a small amount of slip. It is much easier to push the back-end out now. My day-to-day fuel economy is only 1-2mpg less than it was when stock.
thanks for your answer!
No idea why they settled for 4.1 as a stock FD.
Agreed! they changed it up with the later manual models to include a 4.3 FD if I'm not mistaken... probably made the reported 0-60 time worse and lower overall gas mileage... but no one buying these cars cares about that. It's all about sideways smiles per gallon and driver engagement.
@@RRCsteve if talking Hondas, a B series with a 4.4 is really slow. That's why they changed them to 4.7 with later models
is the speedometer corrected for the new final drive ratio?
The speedometer reads from wheel speeds, not transmission output. So as long as your tires are the same diameter (and the stock diameter), the displayed speed between the two setups is correct.
Whats its top speed in 6th reduced to?
Top speed with 4.88 should be about 145mph (calculated). I believe 143 is the rated top speed from the factory so you're not sacrificing your ability to hit that. In fact I would think you'd be able to get to it much easier because of the gearing.
For comparison: First MY manual cars got the 4.1 and top out around 172mph. Later MY manuals got a 4.3 and that should be ~164.
On a test track I've been on at 4000ft elevation, I could get up to about 124mph with the stock 4.1 and 137 on the 4.88.
@@RRCsteve can confirm stock top speed in my brz is 143
Does it ring gear or pinion gear to achieved final gear ratio
Both ring and pinion were replaced.
Shambler it's very helpful as I learned by increased gear ratio it's should be followed by increased numbers of ring gear results best gluteus u have
💪🏽💪🏽💪🏽
You can see the comparion RPM wise but have you adjusted your speedometer for the new setup?
The speedo change is not necessary as the 86 pulls the reading from the wheels and not before the diff.
Tbh it seems same idk 😕 I'm not hating I just can't decide which one is better
It's hard to really compare because my shifting is a variable in this as well.
You'll want to watch my other video where I actually break everything down like cost and how it has changed the feel of the car.
At the end of the day... there's no added power to the car. Just the engine's ability to more easily rotate the wheels.
@@RRCsteve this is something id live to do to my own car. the larger FD means you can get more out of the lower end of the torque curve. basically translates to more acceleration but this also means you have more gear shifts on your way to 60, which is why it appears in this video like you hit 60 faster with the smaller FD. thats basically accurate and how it should be. this isnt something you would want to do for drag racing, its something you do for canyon carving / tracks with lots of curves, because it gives you more control over the torque range and thus more control over corner exit speeds. its two completely different kinds of driving.
summary: for DRAG: fewer gears, smaller FD
for AGILITY: more gears, larger FD
the only real loss in terms of daily driving is the loss in highway gas efficiency, which as mentioned elsewhere can be mitigated greatly by switching out the 6th gear in the transmission to a smaller ratio (to create a smaller total ratio from the crank = more rpm at the wheel = better highway gas mileage). im not sure how much that would cost though. basically the cost of a transmission rebuild ?
What you miss about a higher FD is - its not all about time. Sure you get better 0-60, but what you really get is a higher reving car. If that is something you would derive endless joy from, who cares about how fast it is? Basically it makes the car feel like its supercharged. Since you don't own a fast car, but you do own a fun car... isn't that what you're looking for anyways? You want speeding tickets or near death experience smiles? You have a 6th gear, you'll be fine on the highway you'll just burn a shitload more gas.
My personal opinion is that you went to aggressive. But love the comparisons though
Certainly for some this no longer makes it a daily driver. Other than having to shift a lot more often, 6th gear at 70mph is at ~3700RPM. That would make this car completely useless for anyone who regularly does freeway speeds.
3,700 at 70 mph? That's about what my AW11 does in 5th gear. I don't see much issue with it and I drive 80 miles a day.
@@PSIRockinOmega 3700 at 70 mph is HORRIBLE. I have the 4.3 from the kouki models and I do 3400 - 3500 at 70 and it is hell. noisy, harsh, horrible fuel economy. you gotta cruise like grandma at 60-65 tops to have a tolerable ride, especially on long drives.
doesnt seem so faster
jesus christ I was expecting some noticeable difference...that was a waste of almost $2,000 for nothing!
It sounds like you watched the other video to this explaining the reasons for doing this mod. While there are options for similar dollar amounts which will provide more realized gain, that’s not what I was going for. The additional torque multiplication makes for kicking out the backend much easier without any changes which would potentially affect emissions.
@@RRCsteve different view here, you had a 1.1 sec gain on the 0-60, thats a huge gain. Now if you add a turbo kit on top of it...
If u stacked 2 cars up next to each other drag style, it would be much easier to see the difference. Heres an example of a 4.1 vs 4.67 FD /watch?v=qgWwfprYvI4
@@RRCsteve $2000 to make the back end easier to kick out? Just admit it's a waste
@@crosswire7777 You're right I probably should have just bought $2000 worth of K&N air filters.
This is a video showing what happens when someone cant shift. the fact that there was mph dropoff during shifts completely defeats the purpose of this.
Kyle Barnett you are so right. I was thinking in my mind, damn this guy can’t shift for shit
i dont know about "cant shift", it was just demonstrating a calm / safe shift.
the reality is you dont want to do this if you are trying to win a drag race, you want fewer gears and a smaller FD for drag, because you want fewer shifts so that you have more time putting torque to the wheels. ideal drag setup would be 4 gears on the 4.1 or even a 3.9
you want the large FD and a lot of gears for a completely different kind of driving: corner slaying.
aka canyon carving, aka track driving.
the goal is to give you a more WIDE torque band, while sacrificing top speed. gives you more control over your corner entry (resistance) and exits (torque to pavement)
how fast you shift is a issue that varies widely depending on your driving application, its not really a blame for why this video shows the 4.1 hitting 60 before the 4.8. the shifting time was the same across both, but there was an extra shift on the 4.88 before 60. thats always going to be a loss in time in that gap. period.
btw this is why automatics are so popular in drag. you just spool up the torque converter (sacrifice off the line) and its 100% GO from there to the 1/4. manual transmission competetive brackets are ALL systematically slower times than any autotrans brackets in the same power range. always. thats the reason they are separated, even though its possible for a manual to actually be shifted as fast as an average auto (but not a really good auto. just to be clear.), its the torque/ clutch slip range, that really steals the power.
in this application its simply a mistake to even bother looking at the 0 - 60. if you wanted to see the advantage that the 4.1 gives, you would need to go to like 160 to actually see it. the 4.1 will WAY outperform the 4.8 in the top range. this video CLEARLY shows how the 4.8 vastly outperforms the 4.1 in the low speed range (low speed acceleration). watch the 5-60 slow-mo portion, youll see it very clearly. 01:44
There's only one way to make the 86 engine terrific! A 10 psi 93 octane tuned turbo kit with a nice sized turbo that spools quick. Everything else is worthless
I agree that forced induction is the only way to get the car putting down power that everyone was expecting it was going to come with from the factory. Needless to say, my mission was to make the car more fun knowing I wanted to keep a reliable DD. Parts and install of the final driver is ~30% the cost of buying the Edelbrock supercharger kit. Which does seem like the overall cost for this project was fairly expensive considering no actual additional power was gained. The important part though is that, I feel more involved with the drive and I wasn't adding any new parts that could go wrong.
Shambler I paid $3900 for a SBD turbo with install and dyno tune here in Atlanta. I gained 140whp/120 wtq from spending that much! Best money I ever spent.
No. Going fast in a straight line was never what this car was about and adding boost only adds this as an additional capability. This platform can go faster around a *real* track (ie. one with turns) for less power than most other performance cars. TRD took what was already good and improved upon that to make a sub-1min Tsukuba car with only 26hp more than stock. You can't put down a sub 1min lap in an R35, any model that's ever been sold, without suspension tuning, because all that power is for nothing if you have to scrub it off in the turns because the car is so heavy. That's also why you don't see record setting Mk IV Supra in Time Attack/Super Lap. They're better suited for the drag strip.
And that's what this platform is about.
@@Bedey53 The time it took to write this you could have found ample documentation of the truth. The fact that you did not is typical of people who don't actually understand performance and engineering and consider stuff like The Demon to be more than it actually is.