The Heiser view of the Nephilim (at least to me) seems to fit more consistently with the supernaturalized view of pagan gods as demons -- and the Nephilim are actually what's occuring with the demigods in the ancient myths ("men of renown"; heroes). Genesis thus serves as a critique of the Mesopotamian religious system (Apkallu). Furthermore, 1 Cor 11:10 states that a woman's headcovering is "because of the angels"; which seem like a throwaway line until we remember the 2nd Temple context of St. Paul.. etc etc. And if that's not enough, Nephilim literally was translated as "gigantes" in the LXX, the progenitors of the (six-fingered) Anakim/Gath.. there's something 'unnatural' going on, at least. The naturalist-Sethite view seems to gain prominence coinciding with the decline in viewing the gods as demonic but rather fictitious (post-2nd Temple). But that's just my frame of thought -- obviously this is speculative! Haha
This was outstanding, and it is an area of study that has always fascinated and intrigued me. Apologies, I'm years behind. You have a seemingly endless reservoir of videos.
I'm not sure I share your conclusion about pagan gods being actual existant demons. It seems to me the prophets overwhelmingly portray pagan idols as "dumb" manmade creations that cannot effect action in the real world (see: Elijah vs. Baal's prophets). But it's also clear that idolatry is demonic in a very real sense. Perhaps they simply take advantage of man's natural inclination toward idolatry instead of Baal and Molech being actual dudes who are floating around out there.
I think your conclusion here is better, as it takes fuller account of the complete scriptural data available to us and relies on a minimum of conjecture. Thank you for sharing!
As a confessional Reformed Baptist who grew up in the charistmatic/word of faith movement, I really appreciate this video! It's good to hear from brothers of other legitimate Christian traditions on this subject that helps clarify some things, especially on the Nephelim issue :) Christ bless!
“Just as in the divine economy, good is not good alone but only in company with wisdom, power, and mercy, so be it with man. Let the Christian participate in the simplicity of God by reflecting not merely this or that attribute, but in instantiating the whole host of God befitting virtues”
The book of Enoch was lost in the vast majority of the patristic period. In the 1700s some if it was rediscovered in Ethiopia. The theological and moral teachings in Luther's lectures in Genesis remain true and edifying regardless.
The Lord of Spirits podcast does a good job of explaining the Nephilim thing in a way that doesn't seem unhinged or conspiratorial. According to them, it's a matter of two humans mating when one is posessed by/ritually representing a fallen angel.
Yes, I found this quite convincing and it seems to fit reasonably well with some knowledge about pagan practices of the ancient near east. And at least some more recent occult rituals, often involving sex. Also the idea that angelic powers (who eventually fell by accepting worship by humans) were set above the different tribes is in Genesis and elsewhere (deuteronomy and Psalm 82 is the judgment of them) and this idea of local gods is shared by pagan literature, down to Plato.
thats actually quite an elegant solution to the problem that either angels directly mating with women or if its just humans mating with each other then how does this related to the flood narrative problem
@@bartolo498 yeah Hieser talks about this and it makes so much sense, the only thing that confuses me is that since every culture other than the Isrealites went full pagan, why did *none* of the heavenly beings assigned to the nations stay loyal to Yahweh?
@@j.g.4942 Sure, but the near east and levante is obviously the context of the AT and NT. Of course, we get again a strange specific theodicee question but it would at least be consistent that all or most pagan gods in the whole world are angelic powers originally set to govern their tribes but who all succumbed to the dark side getting too fond of human worship. Alternatively one could suggest that the fallen angels were just allowed some influence over the earth, so the fell before they "became" the pagan gods". Although some passages in Genesis, deuteronomy and the psalm 82 with the judgement over the "gods" having failed at their task strongly suggests that their fall was after having been appointed as powers over the nations. Before I encountered the Lord of Spirits podcast I would have found this totally esoteric but it seems to square reasonably well with scripture.
Nowhere. It doesn’t even say that 1/3 of the angels joined Satan. These are all much later church traditions that are now treated as gospel truth (which violates the concept of sola scripture)
This was awesome :D (Edit: It would interest me how the language of "heart" plays into essential metaphisics of evil. Could it be that the heart, which is closely related to the spirit in biblical anthropology, is the seat of spirits, which means that spirits are purely defined by their action? The action of the spirit, preceding the action of the material/flesh, is what the spirit is. Therefore, the evil act of a spirit, condemns the spirit to become essentially evil. In part I base this on the Spirit as translator of the Father through the Son to us. He is the Holy Spirit, because He translates the Will of the Father into material reality.)
I have the same thoughts as you about the nephilim being fallen angels/demons. One because, as you said angels do not procreate. And two is demons were the ones mating with the daughters of men, would that not have continued on and still going on? The very thought that fallen angels can come into women in this world and produce half angels and half humans, is very disturbing. 😮 I believe if this were possible, Jesus would have warned us of that. Wouldn’t He?
Hi Pastor, God bless you. I am sure, you having a phd, that you read german and french. Here, in Spain we are required to know English and recommended to learn French or German. I wonder why languages are not taught anymore in the very degree of Seminary, back in the day pastors were polyglot (at least reading). Do you think we should bring that back?
hmm, an off hand comment about paradise lost that "Satan is this miunderstood bad boy" i thought was a bit off the mark. Yes, Satan is an interesting character in Paradise Lost, but he is clearly evil, him having some sick bars doesnt change that
There are a number of interpretations of Milton's portrayal of Satan, but a number of modern readers do view him as a kind of protagonist. Whether that was actually Milton's intention is another question.
I see within Milton's Lucifer a multilayered critique of the English Civil War (Cromwell) of which he participated, asking whether noble intentions are enough to justify evil and unjust actions, the question of authority -- making Lucifer a cautionary symbol of modernity and the notions of "abstract rights" and "unmitigated reason" (divorced from an ultimate rights/law/reason Giver) and the potential for revolutionary leaders to turn into despotic dictators (prophetic for the 20th century, and earlier French revolution). There's a lot going on and much of the "sympathetic" lens given Lucifer is self-imposed by Lucifer within internal monologue, rather than by Milton, the narrator. By the end of the poem it is very clear that he is the villain (in contrast to Christ).
@@DrJordanBCooper fair comment. I don't like a lot of modern takes of Milton generally. Modern literary criticism is just so infected by the critical theory stuff it generally has no interest in literature for its own sake anymore unfortunately
@@DrJordanBCooper Are you familiar with C.S. Lewis's Preface to Paradise Lost? I'm a bit out of my depth here, having read neither it nor the original poem yet, but it sounds like an interesting refutation of the "Lucifer is a Bad Boy" school of thought.
@@allisvanity...9161 Not at all, unless you're using it as a tool to worship Zeus or something. I love the classics. Check out Louis Markos' Myth Made Fact for a Christian approach to Greek mythology.
@@DrJordanBCooper Thank you, I'll check out that book! When I'm reading the classics, I think of zeus, etc as fictional characters like superman. Though I do think that the Ancient Greeks were worshiping demons under that guise.
A good dissertation. I live in the hometown of Henry Eyster Jacobs: Gettysburg, Pennsylvania. I wonder if the seminary here still uses his works. I doubt it.
@@DrJordanBCooper - Not surprised really, but it is a shame when you think that giants like Krauth and Jacobs were once there. I’m LCMS, so I don’t have much in common with the “Lutheranism” of this town. I have to drive all the way to Mechanicsburg, Pa for my parish. There’s not much in the way of Confessional Lutheranism around here sadly.
Sure, but "men" might also mean great 'male heroes' of old/renown. To me, I hang my hat on the fact that "Sons of God" is only ever used in the OT (and 2nd Temple Judaism) to refer to Spiritual Beings, never mankind. Similar to the "God sits in the Council of the gods" of Psalm 82.
@@Mygoalwogel _Ben-ai El hay_ -- "sons of the living God" is a different expression than _Ben-ai Elohim_ -- "Sons of God", the latter is a formal title rather than a description. Psalm 82 is clearly the most definitive passage indicating the use of this title for Spiritual beings.
@@vngelicath1580 It was actually the NT that convinced me that Heiser is right regarding the Ben-ai Elohim. In the OT, the title was only used of spiritual beings. In the NT, it is only used of the Church. "Now we are the Sons of God…" (1 John 3:2). And that is intentional.
@@mwdiers Right, there is a sort of "Replacement Theology" going on there. And this ties wonderfully not only into Christus Victor but Theosis -- as the "old gods" (demons) became evil and accepted worship of their subjects, the "new gods" (in Christ) have come to replace them as the stewards and co-rulers of the cosmos. The Church (Israel) is the NEW "Council of God" at the helm of creation; one not in rebellion.
To the Muslims, the god they worship is the god of Abraham and therefor the god worshiped by Christians. They do not consider that Jesus is divine but was a prophet. Of course one of those groups can be worshiping the true God. The other two groups are worshipping idols. As a Christian I worship Jesus Christ, the 2nd person of the Triune God and consider Jews and Muslims as engaged in idolatry-worshiping a false God. You cannot accept all three groups as worshipping the same God because Jesus Christ said he is the way, the truth, and the life.
The word Angel is job title. Angels can think, feel and have emotions.They can choose between good and evil. They can walk among us as one of us... Demons cannot. They need a human body to inhabit. More than likely they are the spirits of the off spring between man and fallen angels. These beings are the seed of Satan.
@@shy_guy2814_IndigoLantern I don't think they know your thoughts but they do seem to know what you are thinking. Most definitely. They have been observing humans for a long time.
14:03 Isn’t Lutheranism supposed to be big on “sola scriptura”? Why are you treating Paradise Lost as gospel truth? The Bible never, ever, ever, even a single time ALLUDES to the idea that “angels fell” before the events of Genesis 3. It doesn’t even imply that one third of the angels fell, this is one particular reading of Revelation 12 (which, if we accept, would mean that one third of the angels fell AFTER the birth of Christ). Is this what systematic theology is all about? Reading our tradition into scripture rather than the other way around?
There's an entry in Luther's Table Talk which appears to be a form of demonic possession in that although the victim wasn't mentally deranged she was physically under the control of the devil at times. No doubt the Holy Spirit wasn't indwelling her at the same time that the devil had control of her and was subjecting her to seizures, but it doesn't follow that she wasn't a true Christian - the Holy Spirit isn't always actively present in a Christian. This is the entry: A woman at Eisenach lay very sick, having endured horrible paroxysms, which no physician was able to cure, for it was directly a work of the devil. She had had swoonings, and four paroxysms, each lasting three or four hours. Her hands and feet bent in the form of a horn; she was chill and cold; her tongue rough and dry; her body much swollen. She seeing Luther, who came to visit her, was much rejoiced thereat, raised herself up, and said: Ah! my loving father in Christ, I have a heavy burden upon me, pray to God for me; and so fell down in her bed again. Whereupon Luther sighed, and said: “God rebuke thee, Satan, and command thee that thou suffer this, his divine creature to be at peace.” Then turning himself towards the standers by, he said: “She is plagued of the devil in the body, but the soul is safe, and shall be preserved; therefore let us give thanks to God, and pray for her;” and so they all prayed aloud the Lord’s prayer. After which, Luther concluded with these words: “Lord God heavenly Father! who hast commanded us to pray for the sick, we beseech thee, through Jesus Christ, the only beloved Son, that thou wouldst deliver this thy servant from her sickness, and from the hands of the devil. Spare, O Lord, her soul, which, together with her body, thou hast purchased and redeemed from the power of sin, of death, and of the devil.” Whereupon the sick woman said: “Amen.” The night following she took rest, and the next day was graciously delivered from her disease and sickness. (DCLIV, Hazlitt)
I just want to make a further comment upon the entry above from Luther's Table Talk which is that since the woman was greatly encouraged by Luther's presence when he came to visit her and addressed him as her loving father in Christ it seems to follow she could only have reacted like this if the Holy Spirit was actually indwelling her. So it seems to follow that the Holy Spirit can be present in a person's soul whilst the body at the same time can suffer at the hands of a demon. It would be different of course if the demon was in possession of someone's mind so that they were cursing and swearing. I can't imagine in that case that the Holy Spirit could be indwelling a person's soul and allowing that to occur. I think on reflection it's true to say that in a general sense the Holy Spirit always indwells a Christian otherwise he wouldn't be able to maintain his faith in Christ, but this doesn't mean that the Holy Spirit is always actively present. When the Spirit isn't actively present I think the possibility exists, if God allows it, that a person can be physically controlled by a demon.
I found the following account on the internet which again appears to be the situation of a true Christian who was nevertheless possessed bodily at times by a demon: Once, during the life of Dr. Martin Luther, a young woman was brought to Wittenberg who was born in the land of Meissen, who was often vexed and tormented by the devil. And a letter was written to blessed Dr. Martin that he should save and rescue this young woman, who was 18 years old, from the evil spirit. When this virgin was brought to Dr. Martin, he asked her at that time whether she could say her faith [the creed]. She answered, “Yes.” Then the blessed Dr. Martin commanded her to say it. As she now began and came to the article [of the creed] and these words, “And I believe in Jesus Christ, His only-begotten Son, our Lord,” she could no longer speak, but the evil spirit began to convulse and torment her. Then Dr. Luther spoke, “I know you well, you devil. You would really like it if someone would set up a big ceremony with you and celebrate you greatly. You will find none of that with me.” Then he commanded that she be brought to his sermon in the church on the next day, and afterwards be brought into the sacristy, and he told the other servants of the church to come into the sacristy in addition. The virgin was obedient and came to the sermon of the doctor, but afterwards, when they wanted to bring her into the sacristy, she fell down and struck and convulsed around, so that several students had to carry her into the sacristy and lay her at the feet of blessed Dr. Martin, and they locked the door to the sacristy, and all the servants of the church with several students stayed therein. Then Dr. Martin began, and made this short admonition to the servants of the Church, which should be well observed by all preachers of the divine Word who find themselves in the same situation, and they should do nothing different. He began and spoke: “Now and at our time, people should not drive out devils as it was done at the time of the Apostles and shortly thereafter, when it was necessary to do miracles and signs for the sake of the Gospel, to confirm it as a new doctrine, which now and at our time is not necessary, since the Gospel is not a new doctrine, but has been sufficiently confirmed. And if anyone wants to drive them out as was done at that time, he tempts God,” he said. “One should also not drive out the devils with conjurations, by commanding, like some in the papacy and even some of our own people do, but one should drive them out with prayers and contempt. For the devil is a proud spirit, who cannot stand prayer and despising, but desires a ceremony. Therefore no one should make a ceremony with him, but should despise him as much as possible.” Dr. Luther spoke further, “One should drive out the devil with and through prayer in such a way that one prescribes for the Lord Christ no rule, no means and manner, no time or place when and how he should drive out the devils, for that would be tempting God. But we persist in prayer so long, knock and rap [at the door] so long, until God hears our prayer, as He Himself says, Matth. 7[:7], ‘Ask and you will receive, seek and you will find, knock and it will be opened to you.’ But Uzziah, he tempts God by setting and prescribing the time for Him, in which He should help him, Judith 7[:30]. Therefore he is rightly rebuked by Judith, Judith 8[:11-27].” Dr. Luther laid his right hand on the head of the virgin, just like one lays hands on those who are being ordained and consecrated to the preaching office. And he commanded the servants of the Gospel to do the same, and commanded further that they speak after him: First, the Apostles’ Creed. Next, the Our Father. Third, Dr. Luther spoke these words, John 16[:23b-24]: “Truly, truly, I say to you, whatever you ask the Father in My name, that will He give to you. Until now you have asked nothing in My name. Ask, and you will receive, that your joy may be full.” After these words, the blessed doctor called upon God mightily and prayed that He would rescue and save the poor young woman from the evil spirit which was in her for the sake of Christ and of His holy name, that thereby He would be praised, honored, and glorified. After this prayer and admonition, he stepped away from the girl and shoved her with his foot, and mocked Satan, saying, “You proud devil, you would gladly see me set up a ceremony with you, but you will not experience that. I won’t do it. Do what you want, I will not give up.” After this procedure, they took the young woman the next day back to Meissen from Wittenberg. And afterwards they wrote and reported several times to Dr. Luther and others that the evil spirit after this no longer tormented and convulsed the girl as previously. (Höker, in Ludwig Dunte, Decisiones casuum conscientiae [1664], pp. 100-103; translated by Benjamin Mayes)
I'm in two minds about whether the following account was concerning someone who was essentially an unbeliever or someone who could have been a true Christian with the Holy Spirit. Perhaps I need to revise my opinion that a person who has episodes of cursing through being possessed by a demon can't be a true Christian: On the day of the festival of Simon and Judas we arrived safely, by the grace of God, in Lübeck. Once I had gotten there the Devil gave public notice of himself and was recognized in a possessed girl, who, until this time, had been quite well. Before this, his presence in her was doubted, but now he claimed openly to be there and to have entered the young girl through an old woman’s curse. The girl had reminded the old woman (the Devil claimed) of a pound which she still owed her, to which the woman responded: “I’ll send the Devil into your body.” I was with the girl today, who was well again. Because they feared that the Devil might return, the parents were still concerned. Her parents told me what else the Devil had said: “Aren’t there enough preachers here? Why is it that you had to call one from Wittenberg?” He also said: “Bugenhagen has come. I know him well, and have often been with him, etc.” When I had heard this from the girl’s father, in her presence, I laughed and was reminded of the verse in Acts 19: “Jesus I know well and Paul I know well, etc.” It is quite true that he has often tempted me and bothered me with his thousand tricks, trying to disprove my teaching and faith, but because of Christ, who helped me by His grace, he was not able to achieve anything except to provoke me to do battle with him. I have still not forgotten what he tried to do through the Silesian Sacramentalists, etc. In other sins it has seemed as if he was defeating me. But, Christ be thanked, though he was pleased to visit me, he was not pleased to stay. I would remind you again to pray for me in this matter, etc. But to return to the situation: I asked the girl, who is about eighteen years old and continually bed-ridden, if, after she had come to herself again and was feeling well, she was aware of the way in which she had cursed and mocked. She answered no, that she knew nothing of this. Her parents told me the same thing. They, too, had questioned her when she had regained her senses as to why she had mocked so terribly. She had answered them: “I didn’t do it, it was the Devil in me; but I have no idea what I did.” They also told me the following: Yesterday, while the Devil was torturing her, the father began to quote to her from the Word of God, and, when that did not help, he took a copy of the German New Testament and held it in front of her. She, however, turned her face away and began biting the pillow that was under her head, etc. I spoke for a while with the girl and she gave proper Christian answers and a good understanding of her baptism. I was especially concerned to convince her not to get the idea that she was forced to belong to the Devil simply because he had tortured her, etc. Finally, I knelt, along with all who were present, laid my hands on her head, and prayed. She thanked me as I was leaving. While I was writing this letter, however, a messenger came and told me that the Devil had tortured the girl again, had thrown her naked out of bed, and under a table, and then under a chair, and had twisted her neck so badly that she would have died had not her father quickly come to help. The girl’s parents pleaded that I should come. So I went, and, as I arrived in front of the house, I heard a loud scream. When I entered and reached the possessed girl I heard with my own ears these words: “Bugenhagen the traitor is coming! Oh the traitor, he wants to torture me and will not allow me to remain! Oh, I must go out!” I stood there dumbfounded, and even though I did not believe the liar, I nevertheless interpreted his words to refer not only to the possessed girl, but to the entire city; that is, that I would not tolerate the Devil’s kingdom in it. May the God of all mercy permit and accomplish this through Jesus Christ our Lord, Amen. All those present claimed that the girl had not formerly known my name, and added that she had mocked horribly before I had entered the house. Now when she screamed, I yelled back and called her by name: “Elizabeth!” The Devil answered: “Elizabeth, Elizabeth.” Then I said: “Yes, are you trying to deny it? Why shouldn’t I call you Elizabeth? You gave me testimony today that you received that very same name in baptism, by which we are baptized into Christ.” He then began to pounce about, screaming so loudly that those present could not hear each other. But I fell to my knees and prayed earnestly with the intensity which the girl’s misery and despair wrung out of me, speaking loudly so that all could hear, that the Lord Jesus should free her - for He had said, “In my name they will drive out devils.” I think that the others were praying with me since I had turned my back to them. Meanwhile the Devil screamed: “I must go out! Oh I must go out!”, and tortured the girl horribly. But her father held her. Immediately after this she lay still, so that her father no longer had to hold her. She lay there, breathing heavily as if she was about to depart. Meanwhile the father told me what the Devil had said to him yesterday before I had arrived: “You doubt that I am present! Now look, I have given you a clear sign!” He pointed to a hole in the window which he had broken. “That,” said he, “is how I entered, etc.” Though the girl’s body was still moving, we were afraid that she was slipping away. While I sat and waited to see what would happen, she opened her eyes just as if she was awakening from sleep. I spoke to her with a quiet voice: “Elizabeth!” She answered: “What?” I continued: “Do you know what you have done and the way in which you mocked?” She answered: “No.” So I reminded her in the same way I had earlier in the day. Then I knelt and prayed with my hands on her head that she should be free, etc. Having finished praying, I asked her to say the Amen. This she did willingly. And so I left; but I have been told that the Devil tortured her again that night, just as we read in the Gospel concerning the swine, etc., and screamed: “I must go out, but where shall be my habitation? There is a horse in Lünenburg; I will enter it, or perhaps the chain-maker.” Now the girl’s father was of the same profession and was, as we say, an adventurous man, since, to my surprise, he had spoken to me without fear from the start, as soon as he was certain that it was the Devil. Said he: “If it weren’t a sin there’s a lot I would ask the scoundrel and he would have to answer it all.” I, however, forbade him to ask anything secretly of the Tempter or to allow it of anyone else. I did not ask what else had happened. I am puzzled that Satan can confuse people this way. But no matter what he does or says, he still shows that he is a stupid and condemned spirit. These things happened on the eve of All Saints Day, in the year 1530. May God graciously give us the victory against all of [the Devil’s] fiery darts through Jesus Christ our Lord. Amen. (Johannes Bugenhagen, Letter to the Wittenberg Theologians [Nov. 1, 1530], in John Warwick Montgomery, Principalities and Powers [Minneapolis: Bethany Fellowship, 1973], pp. 181-83)
With respect to the demon saying to the father of the girl in the previous account that he had entered through a broken window, Luther made mention of such a thing in the following passage: Either the devil is driven out by the prayer of the whole Church - thus when all Christians offer and link together a prayer that is so strong and powerful that it penetrates through the clouds and is heard; or, on the other hand, the one who drives out the evil foe must be highly enlightened in his spirit and have a strong, firm courage like Elijah, Elisha, Peter, Paul, etc., so that the matter is certain. But when the devil was driven out by papistic monks and the priest exorcists and left a sign behind - perhaps a pane of glass or a window broken out, or a piece of the wall torn - he did this to fool the people who did not know any differently [into believing] that he had departed, since he no longer bothered the possessed person, all with the intention of possessing the people later by such smoke and mirrors [literally “fencing with a mirror”], but in an entirely different way (namely, spiritually), and strengthening them in their superstition. Thus in St. Cyriacus Church in the cloister at Wimmelburg, situated not far from Eisleben, where there was a great pilgrimage and gathering, it also happened that a monk, a good drinker, commanded a possessed person to open his mouth, let him put two fingers in it, and yet not bite him, and this happened. He also commanded the devil to depart when the little bell of St. Cyriacus was rung; the rogue did it, too, in order to strengthen the poor people in the delusion and error that the little bell was so holy that the devil had to depart at its sound, and thus entirely exterminated faith in Christ. (Martin Luther, Table Talk #830, quoted in C. F. W. Walther, American-Lutheran Pastoral Theology, p. 345.) (By the way this passage and the previous two, I copied from a pdf I downloaded from angelfire.com titled: Bugenhagen, Luther, and Chemnitz on Demonic Possession and Exorcism)
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The Heiser view of the Nephilim (at least to me) seems to fit more consistently with the supernaturalized view of pagan gods as demons -- and the Nephilim are actually what's occuring with the demigods in the ancient myths ("men of renown"; heroes). Genesis thus serves as a critique of the Mesopotamian religious system (Apkallu). Furthermore, 1 Cor 11:10 states that a woman's headcovering is "because of the angels"; which seem like a throwaway line until we remember the 2nd Temple context of St. Paul.. etc etc.
And if that's not enough, Nephilim literally was translated as "gigantes" in the LXX, the progenitors of the (six-fingered) Anakim/Gath.. there's something 'unnatural' going on, at least.
The naturalist-Sethite view seems to gain prominence coinciding with the decline in viewing the gods as demonic but rather fictitious (post-2nd Temple). But that's just my frame of thought -- obviously this is speculative! Haha
This was outstanding, and it is an area of study that has always fascinated and intrigued me. Apologies, I'm years behind. You have a seemingly endless reservoir of videos.
I'm not sure I share your conclusion about pagan gods being actual existant demons. It seems to me the prophets overwhelmingly portray pagan idols as "dumb" manmade creations that cannot effect action in the real world (see: Elijah vs. Baal's prophets). But it's also clear that idolatry is demonic in a very real sense. Perhaps they simply take advantage of man's natural inclination toward idolatry instead of Baal and Molech being actual dudes who are floating around out there.
I think your conclusion here is better, as it takes fuller account of the complete scriptural data available to us and relies on a minimum of conjecture. Thank you for sharing!
As a confessional Reformed Baptist who grew up in the charistmatic/word of faith movement, I really appreciate this video! It's good to hear from brothers of other legitimate Christian traditions on this subject that helps clarify some things, especially on the Nephelim issue :)
Christ bless!
Christ bless? Oh
@@tjs.5044 What?
Great vid as always Dr Cooper! Bless you and your ministry!
Great video, I'm looking forward to the next video.
God's peace be with you.
50:30 Jordan Cooper trying to squeeze Lutheran soteriology into his demonology
“Just as in the divine economy, good is not good alone but only in company with wisdom, power, and mercy, so be it with man. Let the Christian participate in the simplicity of God by reflecting not merely this or that attribute, but in instantiating the whole host of God befitting virtues”
It was also the position of Walther, and of Luther that God, in rare cases, allows the bodily possession of Christians.
Thanks for the excellant video! You're books are on my Christmas list!
The book of Enoch was lost in the vast majority of the patristic period. In the 1700s some if it was rediscovered in Ethiopia. The theological and moral teachings in Luther's lectures in Genesis remain true and edifying regardless.
The Lord of Spirits podcast does a good job of explaining the Nephilim thing in a way that doesn't seem unhinged or conspiratorial. According to them, it's a matter of two humans mating when one is posessed by/ritually representing a fallen angel.
Yes, I found this quite convincing and it seems to fit reasonably well with some knowledge about pagan practices of the ancient near east. And at least some more recent occult rituals, often involving sex.
Also the idea that angelic powers (who eventually fell by accepting worship by humans) were set above the different tribes is in Genesis and elsewhere (deuteronomy and Psalm 82 is the judgment of them) and this idea of local gods is shared by pagan literature, down to Plato.
@@bartolo498 not just the near East, I was watching a doco on the Khmer empire: the temple for ritual sex for the gods all is there too
thats actually quite an elegant solution to the problem that either angels directly mating with women or if its just humans mating with each other then how does this related to the flood narrative problem
@@bartolo498 yeah Hieser talks about this and it makes so much sense, the only thing that confuses me is that since every culture other than the Isrealites went full pagan, why did *none* of the heavenly beings assigned to the nations stay loyal to Yahweh?
@@j.g.4942 Sure, but the near east and levante is obviously the context of the AT and NT. Of course, we get again a strange specific theodicee question but it would at least be consistent that all or most pagan gods in the whole world are angelic powers originally set to govern their tribes but who all succumbed to the dark side getting too fond of human worship. Alternatively one could suggest that the fallen angels were just allowed some influence over the earth, so the fell before they "became" the pagan gods". Although some passages in Genesis, deuteronomy and the psalm 82 with the judgement over the "gods" having failed at their task strongly suggests that their fall was after having been appointed as powers over the nations. Before I encountered the Lord of Spirits podcast I would have found this totally esoteric but it seems to square reasonably well with scripture.
Wait…where does the Bible say that 1/3 of the angels fell before Adam?
Nowhere. It doesn’t even say that 1/3 of the angels joined Satan. These are all much later church traditions that are now treated as gospel truth (which violates the concept of sola scripture)
This was awesome :D (Edit: It would interest me how the language of "heart" plays into essential metaphisics of evil. Could it be that the heart, which is closely related to the spirit in biblical anthropology, is the seat of spirits, which means that spirits are purely defined by their action? The action of the spirit, preceding the action of the material/flesh, is what the spirit is. Therefore, the evil act of a spirit, condemns the spirit to become essentially evil. In part I base this on the Spirit as translator of the Father through the Son to us. He is the Holy Spirit, because He translates the Will of the Father into material reality.)
Have you listened to any of father Chad Ripperger’s lectures? I’d appreciate your thoughts on them.
I have the same thoughts as you about the nephilim being fallen angels/demons. One because, as you said angels do not procreate. And two is demons were the ones mating with the daughters of men, would that not have continued on and still going on? The very thought that fallen angels can come into women in this world and produce half angels and half humans, is very disturbing. 😮 I believe if this were possible, Jesus would have warned us of that. Wouldn’t He?
Hi Pastor, God bless you. I am sure, you having a phd, that you read german and french. Here, in Spain we are required to know English and recommended to learn French or German. I wonder why languages are not taught anymore in the very degree of Seminary, back in the day pastors were polyglot (at least reading). Do you think we should bring that back?
Pastors must learn Koine Greek and Biblical Hebrew. PhD students must learn Luther's German.
hmm, an off hand comment about paradise lost that "Satan is this miunderstood bad boy" i thought was a bit off the mark. Yes, Satan is an interesting character in Paradise Lost, but he is clearly evil, him having some sick bars doesnt change that
There are a number of interpretations of Milton's portrayal of Satan, but a number of modern readers do view him as a kind of protagonist. Whether that was actually Milton's intention is another question.
I see within Milton's Lucifer a multilayered critique of the English Civil War (Cromwell) of which he participated, asking whether noble intentions are enough to justify evil and unjust actions, the question of authority -- making Lucifer a cautionary symbol of modernity and the notions of "abstract rights" and "unmitigated reason" (divorced from an ultimate rights/law/reason Giver) and the potential for revolutionary leaders to turn into despotic dictators (prophetic for the 20th century, and earlier French revolution).
There's a lot going on and much of the "sympathetic" lens given Lucifer is self-imposed by Lucifer within internal monologue, rather than by Milton, the narrator. By the end of the poem it is very clear that he is the villain (in contrast to Christ).
@@DrJordanBCooper fair comment. I don't like a lot of modern takes of Milton generally. Modern literary criticism is just so infected by the critical theory stuff it generally has no interest in literature for its own sake anymore unfortunately
@@DrJordanBCooper Are you familiar with C.S. Lewis's Preface to Paradise Lost? I'm a bit out of my depth here, having read neither it nor the original poem yet, but it sounds like an interesting refutation of the "Lucifer is a Bad Boy" school of thought.
@@vngelicath1580 That's a fascinating interpretation.
Nice suit!
Thanks! It's Spier and Mackay
@@DrJordanBCooper
Thank you for all that you do Dr. Cooper!
Do you think that it is sinful to enjoy Homers Odyssey?
It is one if my favorite books.
@@allisvanity...9161 Not at all, unless you're using it as a tool to worship Zeus or something. I love the classics. Check out Louis Markos' Myth Made Fact for a Christian approach to Greek mythology.
@@DrJordanBCooper
Thank you, I'll check out that book!
When I'm reading the classics, I think of zeus, etc as fictional characters like superman. Though I do think that the Ancient Greeks were worshiping demons under that guise.
@@DrJordanBCooper Should have known it was a S&M suit. Looks sharp!
Never mind, you answered my question on whether witches have any sort of powers to curse people 😅
Modern Methodists should honestly just become anglican again tbh. There's room for Wesleyan theology in places like the acna and whatnot
A good dissertation. I live in the hometown of Henry Eyster Jacobs: Gettysburg, Pennsylvania. I wonder if the seminary here still uses his works. I doubt it.
No, they don't, sadly.
@@DrJordanBCooper - Not surprised really, but it is a shame when you think that giants like Krauth and Jacobs were once there. I’m LCMS, so I don’t have much in common with the “Lutheranism” of this town. I have to drive all the way to Mechanicsburg, Pa for my parish. There’s not much in the way of Confessional Lutheranism around here sadly.
Doesn’t the Bible say the Nephilim were MEN of old? Thank you for all you do. Although much of it your work is over my head LOL
Sure, but "men" might also mean great 'male heroes' of old/renown. To me, I hang my hat on the fact that "Sons of God" is only ever used in the OT (and 2nd Temple Judaism) to refer to Spiritual Beings, never mankind. Similar to the "God sits in the Council of the gods" of Psalm 82.
@@vngelicath1580 Nuh-uh. Hosea 1:10
@@Mygoalwogel _Ben-ai El hay_ -- "sons of the living God" is a different expression than _Ben-ai Elohim_ -- "Sons of God", the latter is a formal title rather than a description.
Psalm 82 is clearly the most definitive passage indicating the use of this title for Spiritual beings.
@@vngelicath1580 It was actually the NT that convinced me that Heiser is right regarding the Ben-ai Elohim. In the OT, the title was only used of spiritual beings. In the NT, it is only used of the Church. "Now we are the Sons of God…" (1 John 3:2). And that is intentional.
@@mwdiers Right, there is a sort of "Replacement Theology" going on there. And this ties wonderfully not only into Christus Victor but Theosis -- as the "old gods" (demons) became evil and accepted worship of their subjects, the "new gods" (in Christ) have come to replace them as the stewards and co-rulers of the cosmos.
The Church (Israel) is the NEW "Council of God" at the helm of creation; one not in rebellion.
could offspring inherit demonic oppression? such as "sins of our fathers"?
Who is the god of the Muslims? Is it a demon or is it the God of the Christians and Jews? They come from Abraham so I am confounded.
To the Muslims, the god they worship is the god of Abraham and therefor the god worshiped by Christians. They do not consider that Jesus is divine but was a prophet. Of course one of those groups can be worshiping the true God. The other two groups are worshipping idols. As a Christian I worship Jesus Christ, the 2nd person of the Triune God and consider Jews and Muslims as engaged in idolatry-worshiping a false God. You cannot accept all three groups as worshipping the same God because Jesus Christ said he is the way, the truth, and the life.
The word Angel is job title. Angels can think, feel and have emotions.They can choose between good and evil. They can walk among us as one of us... Demons cannot. They need a human body to inhabit. More than likely they are the spirits of the off spring between man and fallen angels. These beings are the seed of Satan.
@@shy_guy2814_IndigoLantern Agree and I have seen my share of them...
@@shy_guy2814_IndigoLantern I don't think they know your thoughts but they do seem to know what you are thinking. Most definitely. They have been observing humans for a long time.
14:03 Isn’t Lutheranism supposed to be big on “sola scriptura”? Why are you treating Paradise Lost as gospel truth?
The Bible never, ever, ever, even a single time ALLUDES to the idea that “angels fell” before the events of Genesis 3. It doesn’t even imply that one third of the angels fell, this is one particular reading of Revelation 12 (which, if we accept, would mean that one third of the angels fell AFTER the birth of Christ).
Is this what systematic theology is all about? Reading our tradition into scripture rather than the other way around?
There's an entry in Luther's Table Talk which appears to be a form of demonic possession in that although the victim wasn't mentally deranged she was physically under the control of the devil at times. No doubt the Holy Spirit wasn't indwelling her at the same time that the devil had control of her and was subjecting her to seizures, but it doesn't follow that she wasn't a true Christian - the Holy Spirit isn't always actively present in a Christian. This is the entry:
A woman at Eisenach lay very sick, having endured horrible paroxysms, which no physician was able to cure, for it was directly a work of the devil. She had had swoonings, and four paroxysms, each lasting three or four hours. Her hands and feet bent in the form of a horn; she was chill and cold; her tongue rough and dry; her body much swollen. She seeing Luther, who came to visit her, was much rejoiced thereat, raised herself up, and said: Ah! my loving father in Christ, I have a heavy burden upon me, pray to God for me; and so fell down in her bed again. Whereupon Luther sighed, and said: “God rebuke thee, Satan, and command thee that thou suffer this, his divine creature to be at peace.” Then turning himself towards the standers by, he said: “She is plagued of the devil in the body, but the soul is safe, and shall be preserved; therefore let us give thanks to God, and pray for her;” and so they all prayed aloud the Lord’s prayer. After which, Luther concluded with these words: “Lord God heavenly Father! who hast commanded us to pray for the sick, we beseech thee, through Jesus Christ, the only beloved Son, that thou wouldst deliver this thy servant from her sickness, and from the hands of the devil. Spare, O Lord, her soul, which, together with her body, thou hast purchased and redeemed from the power of sin, of death, and of the devil.” Whereupon the sick woman said: “Amen.” The night following she took rest, and the next day was graciously delivered from her disease and sickness. (DCLIV, Hazlitt)
I just want to make a further comment upon the entry above from Luther's Table Talk which is that since the woman was greatly encouraged by Luther's presence when he came to visit her and addressed him as her loving father in Christ it seems to follow she could only have reacted like this if the Holy Spirit was actually indwelling her. So it seems to follow that the Holy Spirit can be present in a person's soul whilst the body at the same time can suffer at the hands of a demon. It would be different of course if the demon was in possession of someone's mind so that they were cursing and swearing. I can't imagine in that case that the Holy Spirit could be indwelling a person's soul and allowing that to occur.
I think on reflection it's true to say that in a general sense the Holy Spirit always indwells a Christian otherwise he wouldn't be able to maintain his faith in Christ, but this doesn't mean that the Holy Spirit is always actively present. When the Spirit isn't actively present I think the possibility exists, if God allows it, that a person can be physically controlled by a demon.
I found the following account on the internet which again appears to be the situation of a true Christian who was nevertheless possessed bodily at times by a demon:
Once, during the life of Dr. Martin Luther, a young woman was brought to Wittenberg who was born in the land of Meissen, who was often vexed and tormented by the devil. And a letter was written to blessed Dr. Martin that he should save and rescue this young woman, who was 18 years old, from the evil spirit. When this virgin was brought to Dr. Martin, he asked her at that time whether she could say her faith [the creed]. She answered, “Yes.” Then the blessed Dr. Martin commanded her to say it. As she now began and came to the article [of the creed] and these words, “And I believe in Jesus Christ, His only-begotten Son, our Lord,” she could no longer speak, but the evil spirit began to convulse and torment her. Then Dr. Luther spoke, “I know you well, you devil. You would really like it if someone would set up a big ceremony with you and celebrate you greatly. You will find none of that with me.” Then he commanded that she be brought to his sermon in the church on the next day, and afterwards be brought into the sacristy, and he told the other servants of the church to come into the sacristy in addition.
The virgin was obedient and came to the sermon of the doctor, but afterwards, when they wanted to bring her into the sacristy, she fell down and struck and convulsed around, so that several students had to carry her into the sacristy and lay her at the feet of blessed Dr. Martin, and they locked the door to the sacristy, and all the servants of the church with several students stayed therein.
Then Dr. Martin began, and made this short admonition to the servants of the Church, which should be well observed by all preachers of the divine Word who find themselves in the same situation, and they should do nothing different.
He began and spoke: “Now and at our time, people should not drive out devils as it was done at the time of the Apostles and shortly thereafter, when it was necessary to do miracles and signs for the sake of the Gospel, to confirm it as a new doctrine, which now and at our time is not necessary, since the Gospel is not a new doctrine, but has been sufficiently confirmed. And if anyone wants to drive them out as was done at that time, he tempts God,” he said.
“One should also not drive out the devils with conjurations, by commanding, like some in the papacy and even some of our own people do, but one should drive them out with prayers and contempt. For the devil is a proud spirit, who cannot stand prayer and despising, but desires a ceremony. Therefore no one should make a ceremony with him, but should despise him as much as possible.”
Dr. Luther spoke further, “One should drive out the devil with and through prayer in such a way that one prescribes for the Lord Christ no rule, no means and manner, no time or place when and how he should drive out the devils, for that would be tempting God. But we persist in prayer so long, knock and rap [at the door] so long, until God hears our prayer, as He Himself says, Matth. 7[:7], ‘Ask and you will receive, seek and you will find, knock and it will be opened to you.’ But Uzziah, he tempts God by setting and prescribing the time for Him, in which He should help him, Judith 7[:30]. Therefore he is rightly rebuked by Judith, Judith 8[:11-27].”
Dr. Luther laid his right hand on the head of the virgin, just like one lays hands on those who are being ordained and consecrated to the preaching office. And he commanded the servants of the Gospel to do the same, and commanded further that they speak after him: First, the Apostles’ Creed. Next, the Our Father. Third, Dr. Luther spoke these words, John 16[:23b-24]: “Truly, truly, I say to you, whatever you ask the Father in My name, that will He give to you. Until now you have asked nothing in My name. Ask, and you will receive, that your joy may be full.” After these words, the blessed doctor called upon God mightily and prayed that He would rescue and save the poor young woman from the evil spirit which was in her for the sake of Christ and of His holy name, that thereby He would be praised, honored, and glorified. After this prayer and admonition, he stepped away from the girl and shoved her with his foot, and mocked Satan, saying, “You proud devil, you would gladly see me set up a ceremony with you, but you will not experience that. I won’t do it. Do what you want, I will not give up.”
After this procedure, they took the young woman the next day back to Meissen from Wittenberg. And afterwards they wrote and reported several times to Dr. Luther and others that the evil spirit after this no longer tormented and convulsed the girl as previously. (Höker, in Ludwig Dunte, Decisiones casuum conscientiae [1664], pp. 100-103; translated by Benjamin Mayes)
I'm in two minds about whether the following account was concerning someone who was essentially an unbeliever or someone who could have been a true Christian with the Holy Spirit. Perhaps I need to revise my opinion that a person who has episodes of cursing through being possessed by a demon can't be a true Christian:
On the day of the festival of Simon and Judas we arrived safely, by the grace of God, in Lübeck. Once I had gotten there the Devil gave public notice of himself and was recognized in a possessed girl, who, until this time, had been quite well. Before this, his presence in her was doubted, but now he claimed openly to be there and to have entered the young girl through an old woman’s curse. The girl had reminded the old woman (the Devil claimed) of a pound which she still owed her, to which the woman responded: “I’ll send the Devil into your body.”
I was with the girl today, who was well again. Because they feared that the Devil might return, the parents were still concerned. Her parents told me what else the Devil had said: “Aren’t there enough preachers here? Why is it that you had to call one from Wittenberg?” He also said: “Bugenhagen has come. I know him well, and have often been with him, etc.” When I had heard this from the girl’s father, in her presence, I laughed and was reminded of the verse in Acts 19: “Jesus I know well and Paul I know well, etc.” It is quite true that he has often tempted me and bothered me with his thousand tricks, trying to disprove my teaching and faith, but because of Christ, who helped me by His grace, he was not able to achieve anything except to provoke me to do battle with him. I have still not forgotten what he tried to do through the Silesian Sacramentalists, etc. In other sins it has seemed as if he was defeating me. But, Christ be thanked, though he was pleased to visit me, he was not pleased to stay. I would remind you again to pray for me in this matter, etc.
But to return to the situation: I asked the girl, who is about eighteen years old and continually bed-ridden, if, after she had come to herself again and was feeling well, she was aware of the way in which she had cursed and mocked. She answered no, that she knew nothing of this. Her parents told me the same thing. They, too, had questioned her when she had regained her senses as to why she had mocked so terribly. She had answered them: “I didn’t do it, it was the Devil in me; but I have no idea what I did.” They also told me the following: Yesterday, while the Devil was torturing her, the father began to quote to her from the Word of God, and, when that did not help, he took a copy of the German New Testament and held it in front of her. She, however, turned her face away and began biting the pillow that was under her head, etc. I spoke for a while with the girl and she gave proper Christian answers and a good understanding of her baptism. I was especially concerned to convince her not to get the idea that she was forced to belong to the Devil simply because he had tortured her, etc. Finally, I knelt, along with all who were present, laid my hands on her head, and prayed. She thanked me as I was leaving.
While I was writing this letter, however, a messenger came and told me that the Devil had tortured the girl again, had thrown her naked out of bed, and under a table, and then under a chair, and had twisted her neck so badly that she would have died had not her father quickly come to help. The girl’s parents pleaded that I should come. So I went, and, as I arrived in front of the house, I heard a loud scream. When I entered and reached the possessed girl I heard with my own ears these words: “Bugenhagen the traitor is coming! Oh the traitor, he wants to torture me and will not allow me to remain! Oh, I must go out!” I stood there dumbfounded, and even though I did not believe the liar, I nevertheless interpreted his words to refer not only to the possessed girl, but to the entire city; that is, that I would not tolerate the Devil’s kingdom in it. May the God of all mercy permit and accomplish this through Jesus Christ our Lord, Amen.
All those present claimed that the girl had not formerly known my name, and added that she had mocked horribly before I had entered the house. Now when she screamed, I yelled back and called her by name: “Elizabeth!” The Devil answered: “Elizabeth, Elizabeth.” Then I said: “Yes, are you trying to deny it? Why shouldn’t I call you Elizabeth? You gave me testimony today that you received that very same name in baptism, by which we are baptized into Christ.” He then began to pounce about, screaming so loudly that those present could not hear each other. But I fell to my knees and prayed earnestly with the intensity which the girl’s misery and despair wrung out of me, speaking loudly so that all could hear, that the Lord Jesus should free her - for He had said, “In my name they will drive out devils.” I think that the others were praying with me since I had turned my back to them. Meanwhile the Devil screamed: “I must go out! Oh I must go out!”, and tortured the girl horribly. But her father held her. Immediately after this she lay still, so that her father no longer had to hold her. She lay there, breathing heavily as if she was about to depart. Meanwhile the father told me what the Devil had said to him yesterday before I had arrived: “You doubt that I am present! Now look, I have given you a clear sign!” He pointed to a hole in the window which he had broken. “That,” said he, “is how I entered, etc.”
Though the girl’s body was still moving, we were afraid that she was slipping away. While I sat and waited to see what would happen, she opened her eyes just as if she was awakening from sleep. I spoke to her with a quiet voice: “Elizabeth!” She answered: “What?” I continued: “Do you know what you have done and the way in which you mocked?” She answered: “No.” So I reminded her in the same way I had earlier in the day. Then I knelt and prayed with my hands on her head that she should be free, etc. Having finished praying, I asked her to say the Amen. This she did willingly.
And so I left; but I have been told that the Devil tortured her again that night, just as we read in the Gospel concerning the swine, etc., and screamed: “I must go out, but where shall be my habitation? There is a horse in Lünenburg; I will enter it, or perhaps the chain-maker.” Now the girl’s father was of the same profession and was, as we say, an adventurous man, since, to my surprise, he had spoken to me without fear from the start, as soon as he was certain that it was the Devil. Said he: “If it weren’t a sin there’s a lot I would ask the scoundrel and he would have to answer it all.” I, however, forbade him to ask anything secretly of the Tempter or to allow it of anyone else. I did not ask what else had happened.
I am puzzled that Satan can confuse people this way. But no matter what he does or says, he still shows that he is a stupid and condemned spirit. These things happened on the eve of All Saints Day, in the year 1530. May God graciously give us the victory against all of [the Devil’s] fiery darts through Jesus Christ our Lord. Amen. (Johannes Bugenhagen, Letter to the Wittenberg Theologians [Nov. 1, 1530], in John Warwick Montgomery, Principalities and Powers [Minneapolis: Bethany Fellowship, 1973], pp. 181-83)
With respect to the demon saying to the father of the girl in the previous account that he had entered through a broken window, Luther made mention of such a thing in the following passage:
Either the devil is driven out by the prayer of the whole Church - thus when all Christians offer and link together a prayer that is so strong and powerful that it penetrates through the clouds and is heard; or, on the other hand, the one who drives out the evil foe must be highly enlightened in his spirit and have a strong, firm courage like Elijah, Elisha, Peter, Paul, etc., so that the matter is certain. But when the devil was driven out by papistic monks and the priest exorcists and left a sign behind - perhaps a pane of glass or a window broken out, or a piece of the wall torn - he did this to fool the people who did not know any differently [into believing] that he had departed, since he no longer bothered the possessed person, all with the intention of possessing the people later by such smoke and mirrors [literally “fencing with a mirror”], but in an entirely different way (namely, spiritually), and strengthening them in their superstition. Thus in St. Cyriacus Church in the cloister at Wimmelburg, situated not far from Eisleben, where there was a great pilgrimage and gathering, it also happened that a monk, a good drinker, commanded a possessed person to open his mouth, let him put two fingers in it, and yet not bite him, and this happened. He also commanded the devil to depart when the little bell of St. Cyriacus was rung; the rogue did it, too, in order to strengthen the poor people in the delusion and error that the little bell was so holy that the devil had to depart at its sound, and thus entirely exterminated faith in Christ. (Martin Luther, Table Talk #830, quoted in C. F. W. Walther, American-Lutheran Pastoral Theology, p. 345.)
(By the way this passage and the previous two, I copied from a pdf I downloaded from angelfire.com titled: Bugenhagen, Luther, and Chemnitz on Demonic Possession and Exorcism)