If you're still out of pocket take the other contractor to court and as second defendant the govt office who's holding the money. One case suing 2 people first and second defendants. Why? - Well you can't let them get away with it AND The authorities will see the scam and put him down for you.
Let it go, I had many such ventures, One job I was busy doing and a pampered assasin who was incharge or put in charge by the manager was telling me that my job was no good, all I did was put up some trays which he said himself were good and done but then he said No, so I said ok sunshine you are right and I am wrong, do not pay me for today at all and I walked out in the afternoon, he said are you sure are sure you do not want the 250 for today I said yes you need it more than me ha ha and I WALKED OUT.
You said your dad got stung yet you did the same that’s just absolutely stupid you got what you deserved ALARM bells ringing but you still went ahead NUMPTY 😂😂😂😂😂
If you’re fairly confident that you will eventually get your money, I would just wait for that. Then I would write down the name of the sub contractor and NEVER do work for them again. If they asked you why not, then you could tell them exactly why. Sub contractors like them will develop a reputation for treating others badly and will have a harder and harder time doing business.
I used to be a brickie and heard the customer was notoriously problematic in getting money out of. Luckily I was only building the chimney for them and heard this towards the end of the job. I built a pane of glass into the chimney. End of job and the guy gave me the run around for weeks, I told him he'd never be able to use the chimney unless he did. He thought I was making an idle threat, but first time lighting the fire resulted in the house filled with smoke. He phoned and said he'd pay if I sorted it out. Money in hand I dropped a round weight down the chimney, smashed the glass and walked away. I've returned to knock buildings down that were built but not paid for. I'd go to jail before letting anyone away with owing me money.
@@MrBollocks10 2 wrongs are usually the only way to produce a right or one guy just gets royally fucked, but maybe you just take the loss and dont care that much
Many years ago, a friend was owed £450 for installing some software for a company to patch the main switchboard from reception to various mobile phones, this included intruder alarms to those mobile phones. He tried for two months to get money from this huge company and they just kept giving him the run around....So late at night, he parked up near the company and using his laptop he triggered the intruder alarm and the site manager turned up to check the building. After he was convinced everything was fine he got back in his car and my mate triggered the alarm again and watched the site manager go back in and my mate saw him switch off his phone.... well the system then automatically goes down the list and calls all the numbers... within ten minutes, at least three other people turned up, checked the building and left, he triggered it again after ten minutes and this time the boss turned up ! My mate said to him that he has just had a call from one of the managers (he didn't) and said there seems to be a problem and the boss said to him "well you installed it you fix it" my mate said I would only too pleased too fix your issue as soon as payment has cleared for he install, because it has not been paid for and is in dispute, he will wash his hands of it and walk away..... He triggered the alarm and also redirected calls from reception to the boss's phone for a couple of days ! He had a call from the company to fix it and he said as soon as he gets full payment plus the late night call out charge and also to remedy the issue as soon as full payment of £1250....they paid that day, he walked in pretended to do something to their main switchboard for two minutes and walked out with a smile on his face,,, He still has the access codes to do it again if they mess him about !
I had a freind his wife works in a insurance company and her client your husband is a Gardner and can he do land scaping new build comersial building he said I don't land scaping he ask him nicely so he quoted for a job and gives contract to this guy, first question why so expensive and call on Sunday evening go ahead. So he start job finish on time and send a final bill, my freind get in back list of extra jobs so he said if he pay extra that will be done he refused and returned to pay so he said I have to take you to court finnal he get a cheque with letter "if you cash this cheque you then are agreed to do those extra jobs. That's how the big companies do with small ones always work I you can see person who have to pay for work
@@stephenhands2108 This should be part of every qoutation/contract. How many small businesses bother with providing written quotations though? Everthing is OK untill things wrong. Unfortunately so many small businesses are brilliant at their job but poor at business procedures.
absolutely, small claims all the way. They've agreed a quote, you've provided the service, they've failed to pay. You're well in your rights to pursue the money you're owed!
@@artisanelectrics pay when paid is illegal in business.. did u agree to thier t&c’s or was it yours .. also osev might not be issue they might not of completed the paperwork. U can imagen they have hundreds of grants and many will slip
I like to point out it’s going to cost them a lot more than the initial bill if they don’t sort it. The tone of your voice decides whether it’s a statement or a threat.
Absolutely go ahead with the legal route. I'd also send them a payment reminder every week with the actual amount of interest on top of the total fee, so they stay informed :)
Large companies are notorious for taking advantage of smaller companies in this manner. Personally, after a third invoice chase is ignored, I’d go via small claims court…
Suggest you invoice for money on contract plus interest accrued for a month and state interest will be added for each month as per your terms they agreed to. Document to be sent registered post and to be signed on arrival for by accounts. Good proof for any later legal action. Also to send letter showing next month total cost including interest if payment to due date not actioned.
Depending on the value of the claim, you may be entitled to issue a statutory demand and pursue compulsory liquidation of the primary contractor. It may cost you more than going down the small claims court route however, provided the debt is well recorded and sufficient in value, it would send a very clear message to both this primary contractor and any future primary contractors that unpaid invoices will be recovered or the recipient of the relevant service declared insolvent and the Official Receiver appointed. Alternatively, you could potentially pursue the debt through small claims court first, followed by attempted enforcement, followed by a statutory demand whereupon the primary contract may find it difficult to contest the final winding up petition with the same effect.
As a sole trader plasterer, I have faced similar woes. Mainly with customer's stalling payments. After building a pleasant relationship with clients, I find the process, chasing up payments awkward. Funny enough, I find the more affluent clients are more likely to do this. Yes, I avoid contractors these days. Great video, hope you get your money back! Subscribed.
You’re not wrong, the more money a person has the tighter they get, that’s one way to get rich. With it comes attitude, I work in a GP surgery the most disrespectful people are those with airs and graces they don’t deserve.
Self Employed Carpenter of 40yrs, totally agree the more they have the harder it is to get it off them. Luckily I am in a position were I can be particular who I do work for.
I use creditsafe to check potential business customers, the sketchy ones tend to stand out a mile! Also for companies I’ve not done business with before I sometimes decide to issue a pro forma invoice, once paid, the work gets done!
Other option to pro-forma is deposit amounts. 50% upfront (or just list a fixed £ deposit based on cost + small margin) this way you start the job at breakeven and are only chasing the profit of the job.
@@dominicgarlick2101 Another way is to do stage payments, deposit, reach a stage 2nd payment, reach any stage 3rd payment etc. With this system usually the last 10% is always the hardest to get- a way round this is to build in the 10% into the first 90% then if paid its a bonus!!
@@dominicgarlick2101 This is how I bill everyone except for long-standing customers. The deposit covers my material costs entirely, so in case something goes awry I'm not out a cent.
In my electronic business , I always used a factoring agency for large contract work. The advantage is they do all the credit checks etc . and you get a large percentage of invoiced money on completion You would be amazed at the number of large companies that were declined this option . Thankfully , doing this , I never got taken to the cleaners . Hope your invoice is paid asap. Keep up the videos and the brilliant work.
My advice regarding your “client”, send him a recorded delivery letter with a formal request for full payment and include a photocopy of completed small claims court paperwork with a 14 day window for payment. If he doesn’t pay, then post off the court papers. Reason for including the copy of the court paperwork, sheer brinkmanship! He will know all you need to do is stick it in the post with the fee rather than court action being an idle threat. I’ve used this method a few times in business, it works a treat!
Take them to court, luckily you have a big following and you’re also very successful. This happens all the time to smaller businesses and these large companies should be taught a lesson.
I'm a person of principle. Even if they owed you £30, you should chase them up. Do not let them off, look into getting a high court writ against them. This way, you can get an enforcement agency onto them, taking the stress off yourself. EDIT: Added a paragraph to the comment because people seem to be confused with the full stop not ending a sentence.
If they're a big company they have a hundred ways of avoiding payment. If they're a small company they can either just disappear or go out of business. The legal system shafts the honest little guy.
@Bercilak de hautdesert I never said anything about getting a high court writ for £30. I said even if it was only £30 I would chase it up. If my entire statement was within the same sentence then you could have claimed that to be, but it was not.
@@sparkie996 the video and comment relate to England and Wales, and by implication the laws of England and Wales. I don't know where you live that they use dollars instead of pounds and spell counsel as 'council' but it's clearly not relevant in this situation. LOL.
The worst part about the story regarding your dad's business is that that contractor probably started up again the next day under a new name and all the top guys won't have felt the pinch like your dad did. Happens every day.
At one point in my life i was undertaking insurance jobs to high value. I ended up on a huge flood restoration job and was owed £225,000 pounds. Yes nearly quarter million. They didnt pay up for a whole year. It nearly killed me.... literally. They wanted me to go bust im sure of it. I weathered the storm but it had a detrimental affect on my mental health.
Such and honest video after being screwed over twice by builders for money and ending up with having to up my mortgage I don’t work for builders and prefer smaller jobs with quicker turn rounds Keep up the greet content Jordan !
I wrote bespoke software for the retail sector. I inserted some code that basically killed the programme and made it unusable after a certain date (usually about 3 months after completion). Once the client paid the bill they were given a software update that removed the kill switch code.
Definitely pursue it, maybe consider selling the debt to a collection agency, let them take the pressure off and you get return albeit a bit less than your due.
@Ellis The DJ if you get one of those shady collection agencies that turn up with 20 tattooed body builders and just "ask nicely" for a lot of cash then it's not 🤣 Not that I would know anything about that...
If you want to bid for larger contracts, sub contract or direct, build staged payments into the contract, e.g. after first fitting, After trunking, lighting etc, 7 days payment terms...
Good luck with your claim, Jordan. Don't let them get away with it. It should be an open and shut case, although in my experience it can drag on for quite a time. But then Covid caused court delays so it should be quicker now.
Pay when paid clauses are now illegal in contracts for this very reason. I'm a QS and on the other side of the coin, I have had contractors tendering low for jobs then spending their time on a job making up variations to the price at every opportunity to make their money. I didn't pay certain variations on a previous job and the contractor threatened to take me to court. Nothing ever happened and I stood my ground as the supposed variations were not justified in accordance with the contract.
I totally agree with you in pursuing your money and totally agree in not working for sub contractors. I seriously do hope you’ve retrieved your payment from the company, it hurts to know that this had happened.
If you "just let it slide" , then I think I will definitely contact you guys to do my house electrics.. Because, well, I know I can just not pay you, and you will "just let it slide".. This is the best advertisement for your company you could do.. You will get so many customers from this... Great job.. (This comment has been brought to you in full sarcasm)
Here in South Africa as a electrical contractor it happens alot because you cannot really persue it as our justice system and small claims coart doesn't really function that well in that department. If the client doesn't want to pay there is nothing you can do about it and knocking his teeth in won't help eather and gaining access to remove your stock is difficult due to majority of houses being gated communities and they just block you at the gate, 50% of our invoices gets paid 4 months down the line and that's after begging your bum off but the moment you start threatening the client it's over you can write the money off... Moving to another country mostly because of it.
Get paid as work proceeds in agreed stages No payment tegusr to move on Do not cert the work until final payment You want customers not liabilities Snall claims is ok if the client is a private person and not a company Pressure the gaffers Good luck
The one word is contract, contract, contract. Whenever doing anywork as a subcontractor for another, put every little thing in a contract before you start anywork, even if its for one of your ‘mates’ if its all in written black and white, then it makes it far easier to use that against them. My last boss never did this and one too many times ended up in the same situation because no formal contract was written up, it might tarnish the relationship you have with someone you want to work with but when things go wrong its the only hope you have.
I've done it the other way around. I used to rent (bills inclusive, with a fair usage policy which allowed 4600 kWh of electricity a year and around 20,000 kWh of gas a year, for five people) That's not great given that apparently five people would typically use around 6000 kWh if electricity, and the EPC certificate showed we needed around 28000 kWh a year of energy to heat the property. This being said, we still managed to be under that Half way through the tenancy, they changed the heating to a heat pump. We could no longer be under the limit due to the fact that they changed the heating source mid tenancy, but didn't update the fair usage policy. Equally, it was an HMO. They later billed us an extra £175 for "excess bills" between five of us, including one guy who spent the entire month in India AND told them beforehand too. In particular, I argued against it and I wasn't too fussed because I knew I was going to get my own house within six months to a year anyway. I particularly asked for proof of bills, because they can't just fine us without proof. They made us pay the "fine" of around £35 each and then gave me a section 21 anyway. I took them to small claims over the paltry sum of £35 and in the end, not only did they have to pay me what they owed, they also had to pay for the small claims fee and just to be petty, 1 penny of interest per day for every day they didn't pay. The money of £35 isn't a lot of cash at all, but I took them to small claims entirely on principle..
In New Zealand if a company fails to pay, I believe you can lodge a special notice with the courts, which basically asks the court to declare the defaulting company as bankrupt. It is surprising how quickly payments get made with the threat of such a notice hanging over the defaulters.
Small claims court and apply interest- you can’t allow people to bully you, a service has been provided and needs to be paid for, irrespective of the main contractors reliance on them receiving the grant money!!
I'd pursue it legally and have done in the past dealing with these nationals as we were in the same situation you were. Strangely 3 days later we were paid. As for main contractors we work along side many builders as a team but we're all billing the customers separately and all the warranties that way are separate and not contingent on one contractor staying afloat. It has served us and all our clients well thus far and hopefully will continue to do so.
A letter before action can usually add some pressure on them to pay. Explain that if they don't pay within 14 days of the date of the letter you will start legal action for which they will be liable to pay the costs plus you will start charging interest. Ripping off small businesses is the lowest of the low and needs to be dealt with to stop them doing it to others.
Happened to me, one of my first jobs for myself last year. Company went bust on a new kitchen / extension. Got taken for about £3k roughly 50% of that was materials
There are too many companies that deliberately fail and re-brand owing lot of people money, unfortunately because o limited liability people can just walk away from contracts, they should be held personally responsible as it's the only way to assure viable business and commerce.
Definately get paied for your work , that’s how big companies make their money by rippping little companies off , it’s happening here in australia all the time , cheers for the video fellow spark here in aus
no friends in business, small claims all the way - i've used it, and it got payed out after they still ignored the court. The court bailiffs when in and seized assets, funny how the money appeared plus the costs. Don't be afraid to use the tools when you need too. Never let it slide. ~Trooper
Unfortunately there seems to be companies out there that work on the basis that they can get away without paying! As you say you don’t need many to default before it really hurts. I think you know the answer. I think you should have pulled out when they supplied the wrong kit. Get your money & don’t feel bad,they probably only pay the ones that fight!
Sorry to hear this mate, we run a small father son company with a few employees, had the same issues a few years back, the bill came to about 800 quid, had to take it on the chin. It’s all part of running a business I’m afraid.
@@ef7480 still waiting to hear your thoughts, every small company I know with has had problems with customers refusing to pay, hardly a silly a comment, you must be running a multi million pound electrical firm
Small claims court all the way Jordon. The amount of emails we’ve had over the years from companies based on Mars 😂 asking to be part of their supply Chain never ends It has been tempting, especially when work is quiet, but I’ve heard similar stories to yours over the years, and stayed well Clear, Also regarding your Dad, I’ve always avoided building contractors! Their margins are too tight!! And you just never know Work direct with client or not at all, I’ve waffled enough 😂 Great video mate 👊🏾
Sad to say that I recommended your company to my parents but they had quite a negative experience. One of your team (won’t name him publicly) was sent to give a quote for some extensive work at their house, but they then heard nothing for weeks. After chasing it up, my dad eventually received a reply from the electrician in question saying they’d just forgotten to send a quote. He apologised, but said he had decided the company was too busy to quote for the work. I was embarrassed for having recommended Artisan Electrics in the belief they’d have a really positive experience. Happy to provide you with the details privately if you want to look into it.
@@manresaelectric Mistakes are fine, but it’s a question of how you deal with it. Sounds like you think it’s fine to ghost a customer and then come up with no explanation as to why you’ve wasted their time for weeks, eventually saying you’re now just ‘too busy’. Artisan Electrics makes a very big deal of having 5-star customer reviews and aren’t shy about roasting other people and companies for bad work. So you would expect at least 3-star customer service when they make a mistake.
That sounds poor - and considering how many staff Artisan have hopefully that's a rare glitch - have you made a more formal complaint - I'm sure Jordan will respond (especially now you've made it public).
@@SquirreliciousMe you’re right. I’d imagine it’s not a frequent occurrence. My dad’s a very gentle and trusting guy, so I guess I’m just embarrassed for having recommended them.
Here in the USA, if you have the billing info...send a bill then send a remittance. After that file for small claims court and file against the credit report.
You need to go after your payment with every available resource at hand! They had no problem hiring you but suddenly no money to pay you for your work. In cases like these where you are suspect, I’d get the money up front due to their deceptive practice.
Don't delay, immediately issue a County Court summons. I used the County Court over 35 times with "won't payers". I won my claims, and they were forced tp apy me. Just go for it. Dr David Whitaker
Bad times Jordan - I have heard stories similar to your Dads too many times. I would not work as a sub contractor for anyone without full upfront payment- I might loose some jobs but at least not loosing thousands of pounds.
Sorry to hear this, we have been there ourselves. Contact the main contractor and advise them all materials supplied, remain yours until the payment is made in full. If payment isn't made within 3 days, you will have no choice but to add interest daily (8% above base rate) AND pursue a small claims case. OR just put a big sign in front of their registered address notifying people that they are not responsible contractor and refuse to pay hard working people. Good luck
So happy to hear you’re pursuing your money. It may only be a few hundred but they may be putting 200 other guys like you in the same awful situation. If it’s their poor cash flow management that’s creating the problem, the directors have a duty of care not to employ further services! It’s a sad story about your dad. I know plenty of people who have great relationships with big contractors, but only work with schedules of payment (incremental payments made at pre-agreed milestones) and only working with companies they’ve known professionally for some time. I get that sometimes you’ve just gotta take work that’s available but I’m glad to see that’s not the case in the trade right now 👍🏼
Great that you have pursued this! Maybe as a sub contractor their should be a 50% up front payment before work starts? Quote for half the job , then final payment on completion! I’m not a business man but safety clause needs incorporating as a subby
Hi Jordan, your videos are fantastic, please look to see if this contractor has any CCJS. This can be done very easily, it will provide a picture into weather this is a recurrent event with lots of subcontractors like your self in the same boat. It will also help as if their are many ccjs this could potentially limit your chances of recovering the monies owed to you. If it has limited or non currently and a award is made by the court consider escalation to the high Court for enforcement action at the soonest available opportunity, as this is likely to lead a more successful and quicker recovery of any potential award from the court. If the company is ignoring your invoices it is likely they will ignore that of a court.
Agreed. The small claims process is quite simple and you will recover your court costs too. Quite often, late payers will hang it out until the last moment, using you as their bank. The only occasions when I might not use the small claims process is if the person due to pay you has insufficient resources or if you really want to work with the main contractor again.
"Avoid working for Contractors". A great lesson. My business worked for Ad Agencies, who of course, buy in the technical skills they don't have in-house. After several bad experiences in persuading them to pay for completed work, we ultimately lost £11,000 on one job when the agency went bust. We took the decision then to avoid working for anyone but the "end user" and changed our marketing approach completely. By doing so, we forged strong relationships with our customers, who saw us as part of their communications team. Better relationships, clearer targets and payment on time every time. Personally, I would sue them in the CC (if the amount allows). Or, apply for a winding up order. They probably won't bother to offer a defence. You'll get the judgement and then you can send in the bailiffs if they don't pay. Yes, it takes time, but this money is yours and you should not allow a major contractor to get away with such behaviour.
Totally gutted for you it's a story we hear every day throughout the year working in this building trade, It seems to me that working direct for clients is a much better way through the jungle of self-employment but even then we still get caught from time to time,all the best and i hope you get that money eventually great video very informative.
I would of sent them a final demand after 30 days non payment. 30 days after that it would be filed with the small claims court. you can easily demonstrate to the judge you have done everything in your power to settle it out of court. It would be a very clear cut case and I suspect a CCJ would be filed against the debtor company.
My dad's been a tradesman for about 40 years. He does small and large residential jobs and large commercial jobs. He does very high quality work for below the going rate and e.g. he'll come back to make adjustments for free no questions asked, which most wouldn't, and he works for free for all of his tradie mates who don't return the favour. People don't pay him all the time. He's near retirement now but at the peak of his career there was at least one a month and they might have owed thousands. Most often what they'd do is misspell his name on the cheque over and over again to drag it out. He took a few bigger ones to court, but it's so much extra time and effort to do that that it adds cost to the job that he's not getting back and it's time that he's not earning. He had to write off the majority as it was worth more to him to be busy on the next job than faffing around chasing a couple of days work. It sucks that they get away with it but you just have to price the jobs that do pay to cover the cost of the ones that don't.
I feel your pain. I get outraged by customers that won’t pay, be they private companies or larger companies sub-contracting. Like your dad, I’ve got very close to going and ripping out work I’ve done and not been paid for. But in this instance, I would go legal. Via small claims, the legal costs can be recouped along with the invoice amount. You obviously won’t be doing any more work for these guys, so no relationship is at stake. In this instance I’d say you have nothing to lose. Good luck 👍
Good for you, I would hope that once you get resolution, you name and shame, because all the time they can get away with this sort of thing, they will carry on treating subcontractors badly. It is companies like this, that undercut honest businesses, and make the whole job harder for everyone.
Mate don’t use out source enforcement agency ( total waste of money ) . Just CCJ it’s 4 pages online , they’ll get the CCJ through the post and pay . You’re a reputable and professional company mate, you’ll be paid before it ever got to court. I’ve done this couple of times and both times people have paid before court .
I did a quote for a guy who wanted a frame for a greenhouse, this would be a welded steel frame to conform with structural standards, so not a small job, he wanted the frame built onto an existing footing for the old shed. I advised the guy that he might want to reconsider and get a new foundation built, the architect he had employed also agreed, mainly because the frame will be substantially heavier than the wood and it was a sloped garden. He said no so I quoted, organized the materials, etc, and went to start. A couple of days later, I begin the installation and he drives up and starts shouting that I haven't done what I agreed, which was to do the new foundation, I said to him that I offered and you said do not bother. Anyways, the guy refused to pay the bill for materials and time on the job, and he also refused to pay the architect and some other people. Tried to take to small claims but had no luck, and ended up having to give in and stomach the cost. I folded my small business 2 months later. Alas, at least I have £3000 worth of angle in the garage.
Sorry to hear about your problem. I would certainly pursue through the small claims. However I would first contact the government agency to see what their lead time on payments is. This way you will establish if the contractor is BSing you.
Great Video, I can relate. As a side note, you can get insurance to cover you if the MainCon goes under but that eats into your margin. I used to have a business installing IT Networks and like you got leads from a company offering low cost network installs. My main issue was I'd quote for the cabling and network switches and routers which when they turned up weren't what I quoted for and didn't meet the spec. I didn't do the installs and my only hit was the cables which like electricity cables can be used elsewhere. However I did hear from other installers who got stung as in the paperwork was a line stating that the installer had to offer 24 months support for the hardware which was subpar and a lot of the installers went under because either the company refused to pay for the install as it didn't meet specs or the amount of support calls which couldn't be charged for took up so much time it was impossible to do anything else. Try and avoid sub contracting and if you can't get insurance walk away. You can check out MainCons and insurance companies won't offer cover on dodgy MainCons so that should give you some confidence you're going to get paid.
Jordan..Start applying interest charges to the sum owed as of the day surpassing the period of payment. Also open a case in a small claims court which you will clearly win. Yes it is headache and agro you shouldn’t have to endure but at the end of the day this customer is having a rise out of you and needs to be brought to task over it.
One of my friends, a local flooring contractor was sub-contracted by a Glasgow building contractor, to do all the flooring in the new Morrisons supermarket in Inverness. My friend did a great job over several months. Morrisons paid the Glasgow building contractor, however before my friend could get paid the building contractor went bust. My friend was owed several hundred thousand pounds. Sadly his business could not withstand such a loss and he went out of business after 20 years in the trade.
Many years ago i was in a very similar situation. Dads company i tagged along and learned ‘on the job’ had a job to rewire a large house to HMO. Slot meter in each bedroom. Shower unit wire etc. 8 bedrooms in all plus kitchen. Took about a month. Paid for all the kit. Owner who we worked to skipped the country. Never got paid the £18k we were owed. Legal tried and failed to find him. Only light at end of tunnel. A year or so later news came through the missing owner was in jail for fraud! That taught me. Always get paid before starting. Why pay for kit and get money after?
When doing subcontracting it's very important to set up billing correctly. Have a contract that says you bill when job is done 20%, next bill when done 40% etc. Doesn't work for these small jobs as yours in the video but does work with your dads problem
Talking to a guy that did an alarm install and there were red flags regarding the customer being difficult. So he hid a wire that he could get to from outside and when the customer didn't pay, he cut the wire and the alarm became useless. Customer paid next day!
Good content, thanks. I like your wise thoughts on conducting business. If you ever do seminar I'll come up from London to Cambridge-way. We've all been there before...... it's always other Ltd companies giving you the work .... and pain in the butt....
It says a lot you're asking. Most small companies I've worked with don't have a formal debt recovery process, and they don't do a credit check before agreeing to take on credit-based work for other companies. That is a road to failure through lack of liquidity. So, i'd check their annual accounts before chasing/throwing good money after back and any future work would depend on credit checks/ payment in advance.
Would never take the job on, if your that desperate for the money and can't use a gap in your diary to go fishing then you are living beyond your means. Also if you do get mugged off take the chancer for a ride in the boot of your car to a remote location they soon pay up.
I'm with you Jordan - sue their arse off. I was done like your dad, but only for a couple of grand, but it still hurt. If the directors of the company going bust shared the pain it would not be so bad, but they were sitting pretty with their protected pensions, massive house etc. Liquidator was no use as the guilty were not penalised, despite the attempt. They had carefully stripped all assets from their company - everything was hired so no recompense.
Most of my mates are tradesmen ( refuse to say trades person ) and we all agree they should make a program called Rogue Clients to show our side of the coin, plus point point out what main contractors do to subbies.
I myself has used the small claims court on 2 occasions, won my claim on both, I’m not a trader just 2 individuals trying to rip me off. I find as long as you have your own house in order, well documented as I know you will have go for it. Like you say if the court agrees in your favour you can claim interest , all costs including having to take the time off to go to court,just them getting a summons to appear in court sometimes scares them off. Will keep watching channel to see outcome, don’t let them get away with it, there excuses for not paying wouldn’t stand up in a magistrate’s court. I’m sure you don’t need me to tell you but send all the correspondence between you and the other party , letters , emails text message to the court. Very best of luck.
Here in Canada we have grant money for business to convert to LED lighting. The grant money will not be paid out to the business until the electrical contractor has submitted proof of payment from the business. If the customer hasn’t paid their bill they will not receive the grant money. It’s not perfect but it helps.
Exactly the same happened to me, builder went bust at the end of a large job, i had emptied my account doing the job (expecting a nice payday) and as soon as i was advised they had gone bust the vans engine died, i had no money no van - i had no choice but to fold, if i had my time again i would do stage payments to lessen any risk
Did you know this !! As of April 1st 2022, the OZEV grant changes will no longer include homeowners as eligible applicants for funding. Instead, a new set of criteria will come into effect that enable landlords, apartment block owners and social housing providers to claim an EVHS grant. So if it was a house owner there wouldn't of been any grant available
Great video Jordan! So true, I would definitely recommend his electrician business course. Jordan offers all types of advice and help like this video! It's so worth the money and it really has turned my business around. I can't thank Jordan enough, keep up the great work! Sean JDS Energy Services!
I cannot abide this sort of behavior from main contractor. I have had this sort of thing happen to me. I use a debt collection agency called Thomas Higgins solicitors , the cost is minimal and you get most of your money back plus interest , I have put debt collectors in to some big companyie and the threat of making them bankrupt gets results. So good luck resolving the issue.
Legal letter before action, works pretty well in my experience. There's templates online. You can ask a law firm to do it for you, but also directly from your firm.
I work for someone who had basically repeat customers. Sometimes they would say they couldn't pay because they didn't make anything on the job. He would ask if they could pay anything and if not he would say it's okay. We'll catch you on the next one.
We did a loft conversion 10 years ago working up till 6 pm Xmas Eve never got payed worked out the couple owed thousands and they new they were going bust but kept us in the dark to get it done.
use the small claims court, ive done it many times. you shouldn't have to, but this is how many of these firms operate. it has worked every time for me. Good luck mate
I laid a Patio for a couple and they wanted the cheapest new slabs we could get so I priced the job accordingly. Onyhoooo at the end of the job she complained that some of the slabs had tiny chips on the odd corner and I explained that it is the way they come off the press and she wanted 3 quarters of them replaced. I explained I would have to buy 4 or 5 times the amount required to pick the perfect ones and she did not care again I explained they were brand new 2x2 and 3x2 slabs of the type she wanted included in the price.. Cut a long story short I told the boys to lift them all and pallet them onto the lorry while she was at the shops. She freaked out and wanted them put back before her husband returned home. I explained they were my property as she had not paid and we were about to dig out all the edging and lift all the sand and hard core and take it away as it was mine. she said ok I will pay just re-lay it with what was there. I told her I wanted cash up front and an extra £400 for the lifting of a perfectly laid job just to relay it again. Off she toddled to the bank and we put them all back. Job done.
Definitely pursue it! Small claims court, bailiffs? I have heard of building contractors going "bust" and conveniently rising like a phoenix from the ashes under another name before. Seems too common to be allowed to happen. Thinking about your Dad's experience, are staged payments unheard of in your business? That way at least the alarm bells would be rung well before the job was finished.
I'm in a completely different industry, but a while back we had a client withholding payment. They refused to pay until we had answered some of their issues to their satisfaction. I got the individual concerned overruled thanks to bit of discrete director-to-director communication and the payment followed pretty sharpish, but I learned my lesson. Right after that, we went onto a clearer legal footing and now we don't do any work without a signature on a contract. The contracts stipulate late payment penalties as well as withdrawal penalties and they've now saved us a good few quid! A few years before that, when I ran a completely different business I too got stung by subcontracting. There is a rather slimy business model wherein companies put a lot of money into promoting a website, get business and then subcontract it to local people on the ground. They take a lot of money for basically just pushing buttons and they can be awful at paying on time. I had to take one to court to get paid!
I know this is late and I hope you got this resolved. I found that using the interest terms in my contact as a lever worked well without being too antagonistic. "According to our contract, you now owe us £x in interest. I'm prepared to let that slide if you pay by close of business on Friday."
Back in the days when I did house re-wires, I would hide a cheap 24hr time clock somewhere in the loft that fed the upstairs lights... I would set it to turn the lights off at 5.00 pm and back on at 11.00 pm so the customer couldn't complain that the lights didn't work and therefore withhold payment for that reason.. Of course I would remove the time clock after receiving payment, and rest assured I always got paid in the end...! The other thing I would do is insist the customer pays upfront for materials, so if they didn't pay all I lost was my time.. Yep, I learnt the hard way...!
Ive had a few clients not pay - a few things generally apply where they don't pay after 30 days and you're being nice in that period (as you clearly have). 1) send a new invoice with the commercial late fee and compensation for chasing as legally entitled - it shows you are serious. 2) review your t&c / service agreement - if your terms don't mention (in this case) any regard to other payments they may rely on - for example i have clients who i do work in regards to their clients, so they may wait for their clients to pay, but i am clear that at no point can they use that as an excuse not to pay ... - so if your terms or invoices don't mention it they can never rely on it. they have employed your services, your t&c apply and not theirs (which may allow for delayed payment). 3) always keep on at them and be clear that if 90 days passes you will be taking this to court and during in period from invoice to court and beyond interest will continue to grow and you will send a new invoice each month and chase on a regular basis.
If you're contract is classed as a Construction Contract, the HGCRA 1996 (as amended, particularly by LDEDCA 2009) it has rendered "Pay when paid" and "Pay when certified" has been rendered illegal. If you have issued an invoice, this will be deemed as the default payment notice and failure to follow the relevant timescales means you can go to adjudication (quick form of dispute resolution - 28day normally) to get judgement. P.s. the Scheme for Construction Contracts also applies if there are terms in your contract that does not comply with relevant legislation, which means any unfair terms can be voided.
As a business it has to be the worst part chasing payments, I took a customer to court, 2 years later I one my case but didn't get all my money back, a lot of stress for nothing. now just contract direct and get paid weekly
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I'm sorry this has happened to you in these unprecedented times, I hope you get your money soon.
If you're still out of pocket take the other contractor to court and as second defendant the govt office who's holding the money.
One case suing 2 people first and second defendants.
Why? - Well you can't let them get away with it AND
The authorities will see the scam and put him down for you.
Let it go, I had many such ventures, One job I was busy doing and a pampered assasin who was incharge or put in charge by the manager was telling me that my job was no good, all I did was put up some trays which he said himself were good and done but then he said No, so I said ok sunshine you are right and I am wrong, do not pay me for today at all and I walked out in the afternoon, he said are you sure are sure you do not want the 250 for today I said yes you need it more than me ha ha and I WALKED OUT.
You said your dad got stung yet you did the same that’s just absolutely stupid you got what you deserved
ALARM bells ringing but you still went ahead NUMPTY 😂😂😂😂😂
If you’re fairly confident that you will eventually get your money, I would just wait for that. Then I would write down the name of the sub contractor and NEVER do work for them again. If they asked you why not, then you could tell them exactly why. Sub contractors like them will develop a reputation for treating others badly and will have a harder and harder time doing business.
I used to be a brickie and heard the customer was notoriously problematic in getting money out of. Luckily I was only building the chimney for them and heard this towards the end of the job. I built a pane of glass into the chimney. End of job and the guy gave me the run around for weeks, I told him he'd never be able to use the chimney unless he did. He thought I was making an idle threat, but first time lighting the fire resulted in the house filled with smoke. He phoned and said he'd pay if I sorted it out. Money in hand I dropped a round weight down the chimney, smashed the glass and walked away. I've returned to knock buildings down that were built but not paid for. I'd go to jail before letting anyone away with owing me money.
that's brilliant
You sound like you should be in jail.
Two wrongs don't make a right.
@@MrBollocks10 2 wrongs are usually the only way to produce a right or one guy just gets royally fucked, but maybe you just take the loss and dont care that much
@@MrBollocks10 makes it right in my books and that's all that matters.
I can smell B S
Many years ago, a friend was owed £450 for installing some software for a company to patch the main switchboard from reception to various mobile phones, this included intruder alarms to those mobile phones. He tried for two months to get money from this huge company and they just kept giving him the run around....So late at night, he parked up near the company and using his laptop he triggered the intruder alarm and the site manager turned up to check the building. After he was convinced everything was fine he got back in his car and my mate triggered the alarm again and watched the site manager go back in and my mate saw him switch off his phone.... well the system then automatically goes down the list and calls all the numbers... within ten minutes, at least three other people turned up, checked the building and left, he triggered it again after ten minutes and this time the boss turned up ! My mate said to him that he has just had a call from one of the managers (he didn't) and said there seems to be a problem and the boss said to him "well you installed it you fix it" my mate said I would only too pleased too fix your issue as soon as payment has cleared for he install, because it has not been paid for and is in dispute, he will wash his hands of it and walk away..... He triggered the alarm and also redirected calls from reception to the boss's phone for a couple of days ! He had a call from the company to fix it and he said as soon as he gets full payment plus the late night call out charge and also to remedy the issue as soon as full payment of £1250....they paid that day, he walked in pretended to do something to their main switchboard for two minutes and walked out with a smile on his face,,, He still has the access codes to do it again if they mess him about !
Bloody brilliant! we should all build non-payment issues into our work.
Sweet
I had a freind his wife works in a insurance company and her client your husband is a Gardner and can he do land scaping new build comersial building he said I don't land scaping he ask him nicely so he quoted for a job and gives contract to this guy, first question why so expensive and call on Sunday evening go ahead.
So he start job finish on time and send a final bill, my freind get in back list of extra jobs so he said if he pay extra that will be done he refused and returned to pay so he said I have to take you to court finnal he get a cheque with letter "if you cash this cheque you then are agreed to do those extra jobs.
That's how the big companies do with small ones always work I you can see person who have to pay for work
Fantastic!
@@stephenhands2108 This should be part of every qoutation/contract. How many small businesses bother with providing written quotations though? Everthing is OK untill things wrong.
Unfortunately so many small businesses are brilliant at their job but poor at business procedures.
absolutely, small claims all the way. They've agreed a quote, you've provided the service, they've failed to pay. You're well in your rights to pursue the money you're owed!
Thanks for the comment
@@artisanelectrics pay when paid is illegal in business.. did u agree to thier t&c’s or was it yours .. also osev might not be issue they might not of completed the paperwork. U can imagen they have hundreds of grants and many will slip
@@artisanelectrics it’s basically late payment fee as per ur T&Cs
This has happend to a few guys ! I’ve seen it all over social media for sparks , there scum! Literally stealing your money!
I like to point out it’s going to cost them a lot more than the initial bill if they don’t sort it. The tone of your voice decides whether it’s a statement or a threat.
Absolutely go ahead with the legal route. I'd also send them a payment reminder every week with the actual amount of interest on top of the total fee, so they stay informed :)
Great idea!
Don't forget to stick a late payment fee on to cover the stamp, envelope, printing and paper... assuming that's in T&Cs. And if it's not, add it!
Large companies are notorious for taking advantage of smaller companies in this manner. Personally, after a third invoice chase is ignored, I’d go via small claims court…
Lets see what happens...
Happened to a company on st David’s 2 in Cardiff and I’m pretty sure they took the building contractors to court and won 👏
Suggest you invoice for money on contract plus interest accrued for a month and state interest will be added for each month as per your terms they agreed to. Document to be sent registered post and to be signed on arrival for by accounts. Good proof for any later legal action. Also to send letter showing next month total cost including interest if payment to due date not actioned.
Depending on the value of the claim, you may be entitled to issue a statutory demand and pursue compulsory liquidation of the primary contractor. It may cost you more than going down the small claims court route however, provided the debt is well recorded and sufficient in value, it would send a very clear message to both this primary contractor and any future primary contractors that unpaid invoices will be recovered or the recipient of the relevant service declared insolvent and the Official Receiver appointed. Alternatively, you could potentially pursue the debt through small claims court first, followed by attempted enforcement, followed by a statutory demand whereupon the primary contract may find it difficult to contest the final winding up petition with the same effect.
@@donaldjackson6659 Sadly the interest is so small on a few hundred quid, it couldn't buy you a coffee
As a sole trader plasterer, I have faced similar woes. Mainly with customer's stalling payments. After building a pleasant relationship with clients, I find the process, chasing up payments awkward. Funny enough, I find the more affluent clients are more likely to do this. Yes, I avoid contractors these days. Great video, hope you get your money back! Subscribed.
You’re not wrong, the more money a person has the tighter they get, that’s one way to get rich. With it comes attitude, I work in a GP surgery the most disrespectful people are those with airs and graces they don’t deserve.
Self Employed Carpenter of 40yrs, totally agree the more they have the harder it is to get it off them. Luckily I am in a position were I can be particular who I do work for.
I use creditsafe to check potential business customers, the sketchy ones tend to stand out a mile!
Also for companies I’ve not done business with before I sometimes decide to issue a pro forma invoice, once paid, the work gets done!
Thats a great tip
Yes it's part of our new customer checks - still do business with them but they go 100% up front
Other option to pro-forma is deposit amounts. 50% upfront (or just list a fixed £ deposit based on cost + small margin) this way you start the job at breakeven and are only chasing the profit of the job.
@@dominicgarlick2101 Another way is to do stage payments, deposit, reach a stage 2nd payment, reach any stage 3rd payment etc. With this system usually the last 10% is always the hardest to get- a way round this is to build in the 10% into the first 90% then if paid its a bonus!!
@@dominicgarlick2101 This is how I bill everyone except for long-standing customers.
The deposit covers my material costs entirely, so in case something goes awry I'm not out a cent.
In my electronic business , I always used a factoring agency for large contract work.
The advantage is they do all the credit checks etc . and you get a large percentage of invoiced money on completion
You would be amazed at the number of large companies that were declined this option .
Thankfully , doing this , I never got taken to the cleaners .
Hope your invoice is paid asap.
Keep up the videos and the brilliant work.
Good on you for pursuing it. Your gut is probably right that the company will probably wind itself up/declare bankruptcy in the next few months
yeah and run off with a bunch of money then a few weeks later reform under a different name
My advice regarding your “client”, send him a recorded delivery letter with a formal request for full payment and include a photocopy of completed small claims court paperwork with a 14 day window for payment. If he doesn’t pay, then post off the court papers. Reason for including the copy of the court paperwork, sheer brinkmanship! He will know all you need to do is stick it in the post with the fee rather than court action being an idle threat. I’ve used this method a few times in business, it works a treat!
It's not a refund, it's a payment. Maybe you misunderstood.
@@midlam99 Thanks, I posted similar elsewhere and didn't proof read before posting it here. Duly edited.
Take them to court, luckily you have a big following and you’re also very successful. This happens all the time to smaller businesses and these large companies should be taught a lesson.
yes take legal action against them!
I'm a person of principle. Even if they owed you £30, you should chase them up.
Do not let them off, look into getting a high court writ against them. This way, you can get an enforcement agency onto them, taking the stress off yourself.
EDIT: Added a paragraph to the comment because people seem to be confused with the full stop not ending a sentence.
If they're a big company they have a hundred ways of avoiding payment. If they're a small company they can either just disappear or go out of business. The legal system shafts the honest little guy.
high court judgement for £30
@@AskDoctorMurphy Obviously not. This firm owes Artisan several hundreds of pounds. If you watched the video you would have heard that being said.
@Bercilak de hautdesert I never said anything about getting a high court writ for £30. I said even if it was only £30 I would chase it up. If my entire statement was within the same sentence then you could have claimed that to be, but it was not.
@@sparkie996 the video and comment relate to England and Wales, and by implication the laws of England and Wales. I don't know where you live that they use dollars instead of pounds and spell counsel as 'council' but it's clearly not relevant in this situation. LOL.
The worst part about the story regarding your dad's business is that that contractor probably started up again the next day under a new name and all the top guys won't have felt the pinch like your dad did. Happens every day.
At one point in my life i was undertaking insurance jobs to high value. I ended up on a huge flood restoration job and was owed £225,000 pounds. Yes nearly quarter million. They didnt pay up for a whole year. It nearly killed me.... literally. They wanted me to go bust im sure of it. I weathered the storm but it had a detrimental affect on my mental health.
Don't let them get away with not paying you the money they own you keep the very good work you and your team do big 👍
Definitely pursue this. Don’t let them get away with that.
Such and honest video after being screwed over twice by builders for money and ending up with having to up my mortgage I don’t work for builders and prefer smaller jobs with quicker turn rounds
Keep up the greet content Jordan !
I wrote bespoke software for the retail sector. I inserted some code that basically killed the programme and made it unusable after a certain date (usually about 3 months after completion). Once the client paid the bill they were given a software update that removed the kill switch code.
Definitely pursue it, maybe consider selling the debt to a collection agency, let them take the pressure off and you get return albeit a bit less than your due.
Good suggestion thanks
He might get on the BBC with a new series of the sheriff's 😁
@Ellis The DJ if you get one of those shady collection agencies that turn up with 20 tattooed body builders and just "ask nicely" for a lot of cash then it's not 🤣
Not that I would know anything about that...
If you want to bid for larger contracts, sub contract or direct, build staged payments into the contract, e.g. after first fitting, After trunking, lighting etc, 7 days payment terms...
Good luck with your claim, Jordan. Don't let them get away with it. It should be an open and shut case, although in my experience it can drag on for quite a time. But then Covid caused court delays so it should be quicker now.
Pay when paid clauses are now illegal in contracts for this very reason. I'm a QS and on the other side of the coin, I have had contractors tendering low for jobs then spending their time on a job making up variations to the price at every opportunity to make their money. I didn't pay certain variations on a previous job and the contractor threatened to take me to court. Nothing ever happened and I stood my ground as the supposed variations were not justified in accordance with the contract.
I totally agree with you in pursuing your money and totally agree in not working for sub contractors. I seriously do hope you’ve retrieved your payment from the company, it hurts to know that this had happened.
If you "just let it slide" , then I think I will definitely contact you guys to do my house electrics.. Because, well, I know I can just not pay you, and you will "just let it slide".. This is the best advertisement for your company you could do.. You will get so many customers from this... Great job..
(This comment has been brought to you in full sarcasm)
Here in South Africa as a electrical contractor it happens alot because you cannot really persue it as our justice system and small claims coart doesn't really function that well in that department. If the client doesn't want to pay there is nothing you can do about it and knocking his teeth in won't help eather and gaining access to remove your stock is difficult due to majority of houses being gated communities and they just block you at the gate, 50% of our invoices gets paid 4 months down the line and that's after begging your bum off but the moment you start threatening the client it's over you can write the money off... Moving to another country mostly because of it.
Get paid as work proceeds in agreed stages
No payment tegusr to move on
Do not cert the work until final payment
You want customers not liabilities
Snall claims is ok if the client is a private person and not a company
Pressure the gaffers
Good luck
Small claims court. Simple and efficient. Do not let them get away with it, as it will constantly be on your mind for months or years ahead.
The one word is contract, contract, contract. Whenever doing anywork as a subcontractor for another, put every little thing in a contract before you start anywork, even if its for one of your ‘mates’ if its all in written black and white, then it makes it far easier to use that against them. My last boss never did this and one too many times ended up in the same situation because no formal contract was written up, it might tarnish the relationship you have with someone you want to work with but when things go wrong its the only hope you have.
I've done it the other way around. I used to rent (bills inclusive, with a fair usage policy which allowed 4600 kWh of electricity a year and around 20,000 kWh of gas a year, for five people)
That's not great given that apparently five people would typically use around 6000 kWh if electricity, and the EPC certificate showed we needed around 28000 kWh a year of energy to heat the property.
This being said, we still managed to be under that
Half way through the tenancy, they changed the heating to a heat pump. We could no longer be under the limit due to the fact that they changed the heating source mid tenancy, but didn't update the fair usage policy.
Equally, it was an HMO. They later billed us an extra £175 for "excess bills" between five of us, including one guy who spent the entire month in India AND told them beforehand too.
In particular, I argued against it and I wasn't too fussed because I knew I was going to get my own house within six months to a year anyway. I particularly asked for proof of bills, because they can't just fine us without proof.
They made us pay the "fine" of around £35 each and then gave me a section 21 anyway.
I took them to small claims over the paltry sum of £35 and in the end, not only did they have to pay me what they owed, they also had to pay for the small claims fee and just to be petty, 1 penny of interest per day for every day they didn't pay.
The money of £35 isn't a lot of cash at all, but I took them to small claims entirely on principle..
In New Zealand if a company fails to pay, I believe you can lodge a special notice with the courts, which basically asks the court to declare the defaulting company as bankrupt. It is surprising how quickly payments get made with the threat of such a notice hanging over the defaulters.
True, but they are in the UK no NZ though
Small claims court and apply interest- you can’t allow people to bully you, a service has been provided and needs to be paid for, irrespective of the main contractors reliance on them receiving the grant money!!
I'd pursue it legally and have done in the past dealing with these nationals as we were in the same situation you were. Strangely 3 days later we were paid.
As for main contractors we work along side many builders as a team but we're all billing the customers separately and all the warranties that way are separate and not contingent on one contractor staying afloat. It has served us and all our clients well thus far and hopefully will continue to do so.
A letter before action can usually add some pressure on them to pay. Explain that if they don't pay within 14 days of the date of the letter you will start legal action for which they will be liable to pay the costs plus you will start charging interest. Ripping off small businesses is the lowest of the low and needs to be dealt with to stop them doing it to others.
Happened to me, one of my first jobs for myself last year. Company went bust on a new kitchen / extension. Got taken for about £3k roughly 50% of that was materials
There are too many companies that deliberately fail and re-brand owing lot of people money, unfortunately because o limited liability people can just walk away from contracts, they should be held personally responsible as it's the only way to assure viable business and commerce.
Definately get paied for your work , that’s how big companies make their money by rippping little companies off , it’s happening here in australia all the time , cheers for the video fellow spark here in aus
no friends in business, small claims all the way - i've used it, and it got payed out after they still ignored the court. The court bailiffs when in and seized assets, funny how the money appeared plus the costs. Don't be afraid to use the tools when you need too. Never let it slide. ~Trooper
Unfortunately there seems to be companies out there that work on the basis that they can get away without paying! As you say you don’t need many to default before it really hurts.
I think you know the answer.
I think you should have pulled out when they supplied the wrong kit.
Get your money & don’t feel bad,they probably only pay the ones that fight!
Sorry to hear this mate, we run a small father son company with a few employees, had the same issues a few years back, the bill came to about 800 quid, had to take it on the chin. It’s all part of running a business I’m afraid.
No its not. That's a silly comment ..
@@ef7480 have you ever tried going through small claims court?
@@ef7480 still waiting to hear your thoughts, every small company I know with has had problems with customers refusing to pay, hardly a silly a comment, you must be running a multi million pound electrical firm
Small claims court all the way Jordon. The amount of emails we’ve had over the years from companies based on Mars 😂 asking to be part of their supply Chain never ends
It has been tempting, especially when work is quiet, but I’ve heard similar stories to yours over the years, and stayed well Clear,
Also regarding your Dad, I’ve always avoided building contractors! Their margins are too tight!! And you just never know
Work direct with client or not at all,
I’ve waffled enough 😂
Great video mate 👊🏾
I have never watched your videos, but what a nice way you come across, I enjoyed that and sorry to hear about your dad
Sad to say that I recommended your company to my parents but they had quite a negative experience. One of your team (won’t name him publicly) was sent to give a quote for some extensive work at their house, but they then heard nothing for weeks. After chasing it up, my dad eventually received a reply from the electrician in question saying they’d just forgotten to send a quote. He apologised, but said he had decided the company was too busy to quote for the work. I was embarrassed for having recommended Artisan Electrics in the belief they’d have a really positive experience. Happy to provide you with the details privately if you want to look into it.
Omg you mean they are human?!
@@manresaelectric Mistakes are fine, but it’s a question of how you deal with it. Sounds like you think it’s fine to ghost a customer and then come up with no explanation as to why you’ve wasted their time for weeks, eventually saying you’re now just ‘too busy’. Artisan Electrics makes a very big deal of having 5-star customer reviews and aren’t shy about roasting other people and companies for bad work. So you would expect at least 3-star customer service when they make a mistake.
That sounds poor - and considering how many staff Artisan have hopefully that's a rare glitch - have you made a more formal complaint - I'm sure Jordan will respond (especially now you've made it public).
@@SquirreliciousMe you’re right. I’d imagine it’s not a frequent occurrence. My dad’s a very gentle and trusting guy, so I guess I’m just embarrassed for having recommended them.
@@benedict2814 they deal with 50000 people.Youre dealing with 1.Of course you're going to care more and take it personal
Here in the USA, if you have the billing info...send a bill then send a remittance. After that file for small claims court and file against the credit report.
You need to go after your payment with every available resource at hand! They had no problem hiring you but suddenly no money to pay you for your work. In cases like these where you are suspect, I’d get the money up front due to their deceptive practice.
Don't delay, immediately issue a County Court summons. I used the County Court over 35 times with "won't payers". I won my claims, and they were forced tp apy me. Just go for it.
Dr David Whitaker
Bad times Jordan - I have heard stories similar to your Dads too many times. I would not work as a sub contractor for anyone without full upfront payment- I might loose some jobs but at least not loosing thousands of pounds.
Sorry to hear this, we have been there ourselves. Contact the main contractor and advise them all materials supplied, remain yours until the payment is made in full. If payment isn't made within 3 days, you will have no choice but to add interest daily (8% above base rate) AND pursue a small claims case. OR just put a big sign in front of their registered address notifying people that they are not responsible contractor and refuse to pay hard working people. Good luck
So happy to hear you’re pursuing your money. It may only be a few hundred but they may be putting 200 other guys like you in the same awful situation. If it’s their poor cash flow management that’s creating the problem, the directors have a duty of care not to employ further services!
It’s a sad story about your dad. I know plenty of people who have great relationships with big contractors, but only work with schedules of payment (incremental payments made at pre-agreed milestones) and only working with companies they’ve known professionally for some time. I get that sometimes you’ve just gotta take work that’s available but I’m glad to see that’s not the case in the trade right now 👍🏼
Great that you have pursued this! Maybe as a sub contractor their should be a 50% up front payment before work starts? Quote for half the job , then final payment on completion! I’m not a business man but safety clause needs incorporating as a subby
Hi Jordan, your videos are fantastic, please look to see if this contractor has any CCJS. This can be done very easily, it will provide a picture into weather this is a recurrent event with lots of subcontractors like your self in the same boat. It will also help as if their are many ccjs this could potentially limit your chances of recovering the monies owed to you. If it has limited or non currently and a award is made by the court consider escalation to the high Court for enforcement action at the soonest available opportunity, as this is likely to lead a more successful and quicker recovery of any potential award from the court. If the company is ignoring your invoices it is likely they will ignore that of a court.
This is such a common thing unfortunately, we've had very similar with a national company we know longer work with !
Don’t let them get away with it. They are your client, not the government.
Thanks
Agreed. The small claims process is quite simple and you will recover your court costs too. Quite often, late payers will hang it out until the last moment, using you as their bank. The only occasions when I might not use the small claims process is if the person due to pay you has insufficient resources or if you really want to work with the main contractor again.
"Avoid working for Contractors". A great lesson. My business worked for Ad Agencies, who of course, buy in the technical skills they don't have in-house. After several bad experiences in persuading them to pay for completed work, we ultimately lost £11,000 on one job when the agency went bust. We took the decision then to avoid working for anyone but the "end user" and changed our marketing approach completely. By doing so, we forged strong relationships with our customers, who saw us as part of their communications team. Better relationships, clearer targets and payment on time every time. Personally, I would sue them in the CC (if the amount allows). Or, apply for a winding up order. They probably won't bother to offer a defence. You'll get the judgement and then you can send in the bailiffs if they don't pay. Yes, it takes time, but this money is yours and you should not allow a major contractor to get away with such behaviour.
If they’re screwing you, they’re screwing others. Get your money Jordan, plus the interest. Good luck mate
Totally gutted for you it's a story we hear every day throughout the year working in this building trade, It seems to me that working direct for clients is a much better way through the jungle of self-employment but even then we still get caught from time to time,all the best and i hope you get that money eventually great video very informative.
I would of sent them a final demand after 30 days non payment. 30 days after that it would be filed with the small claims court. you can easily demonstrate to the judge you have done everything in your power to settle it out of court. It would be a very clear cut case and I suspect a CCJ would be filed against the debtor company.
Thanks
Definitely pursue this, you provided a good service and completion so they need to pay. Good luck 👍
Hope that you get back everything that you’re worked for mate. Everyone deserves to be paid for work carried out.
My dad's been a tradesman for about 40 years. He does small and large residential jobs and large commercial jobs. He does very high quality work for below the going rate and e.g. he'll come back to make adjustments for free no questions asked, which most wouldn't, and he works for free for all of his tradie mates who don't return the favour. People don't pay him all the time. He's near retirement now but at the peak of his career there was at least one a month and they might have owed thousands. Most often what they'd do is misspell his name on the cheque over and over again to drag it out. He took a few bigger ones to court, but it's so much extra time and effort to do that that it adds cost to the job that he's not getting back and it's time that he's not earning. He had to write off the majority as it was worth more to him to be busy on the next job than faffing around chasing a couple of days work. It sucks that they get away with it but you just have to price the jobs that do pay to cover the cost of the ones that don't.
As a general rule, I prepay all my handymen and workers in advance either 75% or 100%. Then, I bug them to come and work well. Until now, no issues.
That said, would you work in Central Europe ;)
Thank you. Wish you well with your claim. Good lesson for us all I think.
I feel your pain. I get outraged by customers that won’t pay, be they private companies or larger companies sub-contracting. Like your dad, I’ve got very close to going and ripping out work I’ve done and not been paid for. But in this instance, I would go legal. Via small claims, the legal costs can be recouped along with the invoice amount. You obviously won’t be doing any more work for these guys, so no relationship is at stake. In this instance I’d say you have nothing to lose. Good luck 👍
Good for you, I would hope that once you get resolution, you name and shame, because all the time they can get away with this sort of thing, they will carry on treating subcontractors badly. It is companies like this, that undercut honest businesses, and make the whole job harder for everyone.
I totally agree on not working for main contractors, My father in law lost a fortune doing this
Mate don’t use out source enforcement agency ( total waste of money ) .
Just CCJ it’s 4 pages online , they’ll get the CCJ through the post and pay . You’re a reputable and professional company mate, you’ll be paid before it ever got to court.
I’ve done this couple of times and both times people have paid before court .
I did a quote for a guy who wanted a frame for a greenhouse, this would be a welded steel frame to conform with structural standards, so not a small job, he wanted the frame built onto an existing footing for the old shed. I advised the guy that he might want to reconsider and get a new foundation built, the architect he had employed also agreed, mainly because the frame will be substantially heavier than the wood and it was a sloped garden. He said no so I quoted, organized the materials, etc, and went to start. A couple of days later, I begin the installation and he drives up and starts shouting that I haven't done what I agreed, which was to do the new foundation, I said to him that I offered and you said do not bother. Anyways, the guy refused to pay the bill for materials and time on the job, and he also refused to pay the architect and some other people. Tried to take to small claims but had no luck, and ended up having to give in and stomach the cost. I folded my small business 2 months later. Alas, at least I have £3000 worth of angle in the garage.
Sorry to hear about your problem. I would certainly pursue through the small claims. However I would first contact the government agency to see what their lead time on payments is. This way you will establish if the contractor is BSing you.
My first question when talking with a tradesman is "Do you use sub-contractors?". I'll never work with someone who does subs. No chance, No way.
Great Video, I can relate. As a side note, you can get insurance to cover you if the MainCon goes under but that eats into your margin. I used to have a business installing IT Networks and like you got leads from a company offering low cost network installs. My main issue was I'd quote for the cabling and network switches and routers which when they turned up weren't what I quoted for and didn't meet the spec. I didn't do the installs and my only hit was the cables which like electricity cables can be used elsewhere. However I did hear from other installers who got stung as in the paperwork was a line stating that the installer had to offer 24 months support for the hardware which was subpar and a lot of the installers went under because either the company refused to pay for the install as it didn't meet specs or the amount of support calls which couldn't be charged for took up so much time it was impossible to do anything else. Try and avoid sub contracting and if you can't get insurance walk away. You can check out MainCons and insurance companies won't offer cover on dodgy MainCons so that should give you some confidence you're going to get paid.
Jordan..Start applying interest charges to the sum owed as of the day surpassing the period of payment. Also open a case in a small claims court which you will clearly win. Yes it is headache and agro you shouldn’t have to endure but at the end of the day this customer is having a rise out of you and needs to be brought to task over it.
Good man, go get your money! Love your channel
One of my friends, a local flooring contractor was sub-contracted by a Glasgow building contractor, to do all the flooring in the new Morrisons supermarket in Inverness. My friend did a great job over several months. Morrisons paid the Glasgow building contractor, however before my friend could get paid the building contractor went bust. My friend was owed several hundred thousand pounds. Sadly his business could not withstand such a loss and he went out of business after 20 years in the trade.
Many years ago i was in a very similar situation. Dads company i tagged along and learned ‘on the job’ had a job to rewire a large house to HMO. Slot meter in each bedroom. Shower unit wire etc. 8 bedrooms in all plus kitchen. Took about a month. Paid for all the kit. Owner who we worked to skipped the country. Never got paid the £18k we were owed. Legal tried and failed to find him. Only light at end of tunnel. A year or so later news came through the missing owner was in jail for fraud! That taught me. Always get paid before starting. Why pay for kit and get money after?
When doing subcontracting it's very important to set up billing correctly. Have a contract that says you bill when job is done 20%, next bill when done 40% etc. Doesn't work for these small jobs as yours in the video but does work with your dads problem
Talking to a guy that did an alarm install and there were red flags regarding the customer being difficult.
So he hid a wire that he could get to from outside and when the customer didn't pay, he cut the wire and the alarm became useless.
Customer paid next day!
Good content, thanks. I like your wise thoughts on conducting business. If you ever do seminar I'll come up from London to Cambridge-way. We've all been there before...... it's always other Ltd companies giving you the work .... and pain in the butt....
It says a lot you're asking. Most small companies I've worked with don't have a formal debt recovery process, and they don't do a credit check before agreeing to take on credit-based work for other companies. That is a road to failure through lack of liquidity. So, i'd check their annual accounts before chasing/throwing good money after back and any future work would depend on credit checks/ payment in advance.
Would never take the job on, if your that desperate for the money and can't use a gap in your diary to go fishing then you are living beyond your means. Also if you do get mugged off take the chancer for a ride in the boot of your car to a remote location they soon pay up.
I'm with you Jordan - sue their arse off. I was done like your dad, but only for a couple of grand, but it still hurt. If the directors of the company going bust shared the pain it would not be so bad, but they were sitting pretty with their protected pensions, massive house etc. Liquidator was no use as the guilty were not penalised, despite the attempt. They had carefully stripped all assets from their company - everything was hired so no recompense.
Most of my mates are tradesmen ( refuse to say trades person ) and we all agree they should make a program called Rogue Clients to show our side of the coin, plus point point out what main contractors do to subbies.
I myself has used the small claims court on 2 occasions, won my claim on both, I’m not a trader just 2 individuals trying to rip me off. I find as long as you have your own house in order, well documented as I know you will have go for it. Like you say if the court agrees in your favour you can claim interest , all costs including having to take the time off to go to court,just them getting a summons to appear in court sometimes scares them off. Will keep watching channel to see outcome, don’t let them get away with it, there excuses for not paying wouldn’t stand up in a magistrate’s court. I’m sure you don’t need me to tell you but send all the correspondence between you and the other party , letters , emails text message to the court. Very best of luck.
Here in Canada we have grant money for business to convert to LED lighting. The grant money will not be paid out to the business until the electrical contractor has submitted proof of payment from the business. If the customer hasn’t paid their bill they will not receive the grant money. It’s not perfect but it helps.
Exactly the same happened to me, builder went bust at the end of a large job, i had emptied my account doing the job (expecting a nice payday) and as soon as i was advised they had gone bust the vans engine died, i had no money no van - i had no choice but to fold, if i had my time again i would do stage payments to lessen any risk
Good on you, these people cant get away with this.
Did you know this !!
As of April 1st 2022, the OZEV grant changes will no longer include homeowners as eligible applicants for funding. Instead, a new set of criteria will come into effect that enable landlords, apartment block owners and social housing providers to claim an EVHS grant.
So if it was a house owner there wouldn't of been any grant available
Great video Jordan! So true, I would definitely recommend his electrician business course. Jordan offers all types of advice and help like this video! It's so worth the money and it really has turned my business around.
I can't thank Jordan enough, keep up the great work!
Sean JDS Energy Services!
I had the same issue too mate, tho mine wasn't that much, Only 5 Grand. In the end I've received 2 cheques for £17.39 they went bankrupt. It sucks.
I cannot abide this sort of behavior from main contractor. I have had this sort of thing happen to me. I use a debt collection agency called Thomas Higgins solicitors , the cost is minimal and you get most of your money back plus interest , I have put debt collectors in to some big companyie and the threat of making them bankrupt gets results. So good luck resolving the issue.
Legal letter before action, works pretty well in my experience. There's templates online. You can ask a law firm to do it for you, but also directly from your firm.
I work for someone who had basically repeat customers. Sometimes they would say they couldn't pay because they didn't make anything on the job. He would ask if they could pay anything and if not he would say it's okay. We'll catch you on the next one.
We did a loft conversion 10 years ago working up till 6 pm Xmas Eve never got payed worked out the couple owed thousands and they new they were going bust but kept us in the dark to get it done.
use the small claims court, ive done it many times. you shouldn't have to, but this is how many of these firms operate. it has worked every time for me. Good luck mate
I laid a Patio for a couple and they wanted the cheapest new slabs we could get so I priced the job accordingly. Onyhoooo at the end of the job she complained that some of the slabs had tiny chips on the odd corner and I explained that it is the way they come off the press and she wanted 3 quarters of them replaced. I explained I would have to buy 4 or 5 times the amount required to pick the perfect ones and she did not care again I explained they were brand new 2x2 and 3x2 slabs of the type she wanted included in the price.. Cut a long story short I told the boys to lift them all and pallet them onto the lorry while she was at the shops. She freaked out and wanted them put back before her husband returned home. I explained they were my property as she had not paid and we were about to dig out all the edging and lift all the sand and hard core and take it away as it was mine. she said ok I will pay just re-lay it with what was there. I told her I wanted cash up front and an extra £400 for the lifting of a perfectly laid job just to relay it again. Off she toddled to the bank and we put them all back. Job done.
Definitely pursue it! Small claims court, bailiffs?
I have heard of building contractors going "bust" and conveniently rising like a phoenix from the ashes under another name before. Seems too common to be allowed to happen.
Thinking about your Dad's experience, are staged payments unheard of in your business? That way at least the alarm bells would be rung well before the job was finished.
I'm in a completely different industry, but a while back we had a client withholding payment. They refused to pay until we had answered some of their issues to their satisfaction. I got the individual concerned overruled thanks to bit of discrete director-to-director communication and the payment followed pretty sharpish, but I learned my lesson. Right after that, we went onto a clearer legal footing and now we don't do any work without a signature on a contract. The contracts stipulate late payment penalties as well as withdrawal penalties and they've now saved us a good few quid! A few years before that, when I ran a completely different business I too got stung by subcontracting. There is a rather slimy business model wherein companies put a lot of money into promoting a website, get business and then subcontract it to local people on the ground. They take a lot of money for basically just pushing buttons and they can be awful at paying on time. I had to take one to court to get paid!
I know this is late and I hope you got this resolved.
I found that using the interest terms in my contact as a lever worked well without being too antagonistic. "According to our contract, you now owe us £x in interest. I'm prepared to let that slide if you pay by close of business on Friday."
Back in the days when I did house re-wires, I would hide a cheap 24hr time clock somewhere in the loft that fed the upstairs lights...
I would set it to turn the lights off at 5.00 pm and back on at 11.00 pm so the customer couldn't complain that the lights didn't work and therefore withhold payment for that reason..
Of course I would remove the time clock after receiving payment, and rest assured I always got paid in the end...!
The other thing I would do is insist the customer pays upfront for materials, so if they didn't pay all I lost was my time..
Yep, I learnt the hard way...!
Ive had a few clients not pay - a few things generally apply where they don't pay after 30 days and you're being nice in that period (as you clearly have).
1) send a new invoice with the commercial late fee and compensation for chasing as legally entitled - it shows you are serious.
2) review your t&c / service agreement - if your terms don't mention (in this case) any regard to other payments they may rely on - for example i have clients who i do work in regards to their clients, so they may wait for their clients to pay, but i am clear that at no point can they use that as an excuse not to pay ... - so if your terms or invoices don't mention it they can never rely on it. they have employed your services, your t&c apply and not theirs (which may allow for delayed payment).
3) always keep on at them and be clear that if 90 days passes you will be taking this to court and during in period from invoice to court and beyond interest will continue to grow and you will send a new invoice each month and chase on a regular basis.
If you're contract is classed as a Construction Contract, the HGCRA 1996 (as amended, particularly by LDEDCA 2009) it has rendered "Pay when paid" and "Pay when certified" has been rendered illegal. If you have issued an invoice, this will be deemed as the default payment notice and failure to follow the relevant timescales means you can go to adjudication (quick form of dispute resolution - 28day normally) to get judgement. P.s. the Scheme for Construction Contracts also applies if there are terms in your contract that does not comply with relevant legislation, which means any unfair terms can be voided.
As a business it has to be the worst part chasing payments, I took a customer to court, 2 years later I one my case but didn't get all my money back, a lot of stress for nothing. now just contract direct and get paid weekly