Rhop does not reduce FPS in the same way that a regular bucking does. At the rpm backspin required of a given weight BB the RHop system will have slightly higher FPS if its simply being installed in a given rifle, so it will go farther. If the bucking setup its being compared with is modified to spit out the same FPS as the Rhop system the difference in range will be zero, effective range will still be better due to more consistent backspin. Most of the range improvements people report are from no longer loosing FPS as hop up comes on; Rhop is more pneumatically efficient
Your theory is a flawed due to the fact that you operate on a 2D plane, and you imply that spin is applied in only one direction. Your statement that after applying the same amount of backspin in two different systems, the flight path will be completely the same is false. In classic hop-up systems the BB will never enter the bucking mound at exactly the same place. This will cause hop-up to be applied off-center causing the so-called wobble. The elongated and concave patch of the r-hop is forcing the BB to center in the barrel and have most of the spin applied in one axis. If, and why such an off-center rotation makes the BB flight path shorter is sadly beyond my understanding of physics. The wobble theory actually goes even deeper implying that spin is applied more effectively in regards to center of mass of the projectile. There is a quit thorough explanation by HS5 on Airsoft Mechanics. While this may all be considered wild and unfounded, you admit in the part of your video about lower quality BBs that off-center spin, wobble or whatever we call it can in fact, shorten the distance of your shots. Remember that the wobble hypothesis didn't came first, but was proposed after techs reported that r-hop was increasing their range.
You are correct, the spin vector is not two-dimensional but rather three-dimensional. Off-center spin induces curving. But as long as the vertical backspin is the same on two bb's, the horizontal distance the bb travels remains the same, the bb may curve right or left but that does not make too much of a difference in actual range. It has a huge influence on accuracy of course, obviously. And, if the spin is off-center, some of the spin is not vertical so the vertical spin would be less, so that would be a difference. But the whole explanation starts with the assumption that the vertical spin is the same in the first place ;) Obviously, when I say that the two trajectories will be the same, I am talking about the two-dimensional flight path as the three-dimensional flight path is not interesting for range, only for accuracy. This theory is not flawed, it is simply a simplified model which disregards the third dimension. Keep in mind that a bb's trajectory is a linear system, so the superposition principle fully applies here and disregarding the third dimension has no influence on the outcome. So, while technically you are correct and the bb can spin in other directions, this does not reduce range. Just so long as the vertical spin remains constant when comparing two trajectories ;) I have read the explanation by HS5 on wobble theory but it is flawed in my humble opinion. If the bb is allowed to randomly pass underneath the bucking as described by the wobble hypothesis, it would experience some slight left/right spin along with the vertical backspin, because it didn't travel underneath the hopup mound at dead center. This does not mean that the bb rotates better or worse around its center of mass, it just means the rotation vector has a slightly different direction. If anything, the mechanism the wobble theory proposes would imply that the bb rotates around its center of volume rather than its center of mass because it is not allowed to move up or down. In my experience, R-hop hasn't done an awful lot to range. The minor differences I have seen have always been due to a different hop setting or because the fps was higher because less downforce on the nub was needed. I therefore do not think wobble theory is true. And even if it were true, we're talking about minor differences. The big difference in range when installing an R-hop is not because of wobble theory but due to the difference in bb weights you're capable of using. Especially when comparing an R-hop to a flat hop or maple leaf which would also be subject to wobble theory, IF it were true. The real reason why R-hop is great is because of its lift potential and accuracy. But it doesn't do much magic to your actual range ;)
You understand however, that "not an awful lot" is not "none at all" which is implied in your video. I just find the the whole thing to be a bit "drama-inducing" instead of an invitation for a merithorical discussion. The more important question is, if the time / money investment into R-Hops is worth the benefits. If we assume that an R-Hop would give you even the slightest but still consistent advantage, let's say 2 meters, wouldn't it be reasonable to do it if your intetion was to squeeze out every drop of accuracy and range out of airsoft (which seems to be the case according to your posts on ASF)? Don't get me wrong - I am in no way an advocate for the R-Hop and in my specific use case (450 fps, 0,3 gr BBs) I find it causes more problems than it solves (mostly because the required hop amount is so low that it diminishes the advantages of the system and multiplies installation errors). Due to the very fact that besides personal opinions there is no hard evidence / documented results that would prove or debunk the theory that R-Hop is superior / inferior I would much rather prefer to have people invest their time for proper tests instead of just theorizing. Excuse my rant-ish behaviour, but I'm quite emotional about the fact that there seems to be a stagnation period in airsoft teching going on due to the fact that there aren't a lot of techs willing to do some advanced r&d and further develop ideas by the likes of HS5 and Maekkii and instead opt for simple and "drop-in" solutions.
The reason I advocate drop-in solutions is because they are easy to do by people who have no experience with it. I like things made simple. R-hop is a great concept but the same thing done by an R-hop is also done by a maple leaf bucking for example. The reason I've made this video is because I've found it strange that by changing a mechanism by which something works the outcome would be vastly different. So I came up with this theory (quite a while ago, really). I have since then tested several scenarios with different guns (stock buckings, R-hops, maple leafs, flat hops) and concluded that as long as the bb's and muzzle energy were the same, the range was the same, assuming the amount of backspin was also set the same way. Which fully coincides with the theory. So don't worry, it's not all talk, I have actually tried this before I put it up on the internet ;) I actually aim to make a video on the subject including some real world tests with scopecam footage of several bb's and hopup methods to compare trajectories at different ranges and demonstrate that the theory checks out as that is much easier to believe than 20 minutes of theory. I'm even building a gun to really push the limits for demonstration purposes :) If an R-hop is worth it, then by all means it should be used. And R-hop is worth it in many scenarios. In low fps builds such as assault rifles shooting below 1 J, R-hop's added lift potential compared to a maple leaf is worth quite a lot because it allows you to use heavier bb's which extends your range. Also the reduced amount of downforce on the bucking means you can get higher fps with the same power train which is very useful for AEP's where power is limited. But in bolt action guns, a maple leaf provides the same accuracy and lift as an R-hop in my experience and is easier to do, so I prefer maple leafs in that scenario as you can't mess them up ;) Don't get me wrong, I by no means think we should be happy with what we have and we should always be pushing for innovation. But we should also gain an understanding why certain things work and others don't. The real world results with R-hops are interesting, but if we can build a theoretical model on it that checks out with the real world results then we can build new ideas on those principles :) Therefore it is in my opinion that people understand these basics of bb trajectory dynamics, because if you understand the theory, then you can know how to improve. If you don't understand the theory, then it's just messing around and hoping the results improve :P
assuming the velocity and vertical spin of the bb are constant, r-hop will indeed have 0 effect on range. side spin will have no effect. assuming when you say range you mean the displacement of bb parallel to the barrel. Unless the magnus effect that causes the side spin messes with the aerodynamics and somehow amplifies the drag/negative acceleration of the bb. his theories are not flawed, at least not in ways you stated. a real life fair test is practically impossible if you intend to see the effects on range (effective range however is more doable). but still it's unlikely that someone would invest their time in such test.
If, and why such an off-center rotation makes the BB flight path shorter is sadly beyond my understanding of physics. Because the magnus effect is what makes the bb counteract gravity and if the force between shots is relatively the same it will decrease the range by making the bb spend less of its energy counteracting gravity and spend more of it curving. It isn't physics, it's just some common sense stuff.
From what I’ve seen R hops do from the ones I’ve installed and made for personal weapons and other peoples, is the range it increase is effective range, stock hop ups will reach accurately to 150 feet and start waining off at about 170-200, while R-hop makes its accurate to 200 feet, but doesn’t increase actual range in how far the bb flies, maybe by a little from a better trajectory.
Rhop does very slightly increase range too, because something that isn't flying straight is losing energy from well, not flying straight. By making your hop more consistent, and straight. You're making the BB lose energy while going perfectly (or as close to it as possible) straight, which makes it so youre using the energy of the BB to go only straight instead of wobbling around.
If you go from a standard bore barrel to a tight bore less air can escape past the BB giving it a higher fps, Wich means more range. If a BB goes through a barrel smoother (les woble in the barrel) it has lower friction, Wich means more fps and more range. Being able to apply more spin to a BB makes it possible to shoot heavyer BB's giving you more range
Your theory is base on misuse of a R-hop system...because the point of using a aftermarket bucking or R-hop is to increase your spin to be able to lift heavyer bbs wich results to range and consistency increase , so what the point of saying that R-hop isnt't that great if you dont even use it properly ?
Interesting video, going to test out my new maple leaf bucking soon with the concave-shaped nub. Hope its as consistent as r-hop, because Im trying to build as good vsr as possible.. :P
The RHOP stabilizes the bb as it travels down the barrel, eventually leaving and moving toward the target. The advantage of this stabilization is that there is less wobble on the bb when it exits the muzzle of the gun. This reduction in wobble in combination with the backspin reduces the likelihood of the bb traveling in the left or right direction once out of the muzzle. If a bb has sidespin, occurring due to wobble, you lose both range and effective range due to the deviation right or left. This is why RHOP creates both increase in both range and effective range. Its the same concept as a golf ball being hit, a slice or hook will never get the distance that a straight shot would get if all other variables kept constant.
Jacob Webster A bb curving right/left still has the same distance from the shooter, because forces acting on the Y-axis (off-center spin) do not influence motion on the X-axis (bore of the gun). (because of the superposition principle) There is a very small difference due to off center spin slightly slowing down X-axis velocity once there is velocity on the Y-axis as well but this is a difference in the order of centimeters over a 50 meter trajectory ;)
the reason they dont wobble around as much is because the friction force is applied smoother over a greater length rather than it being applied abruptly. Think of it as gently easing on the breaks for a couple of seconds vs slamming on them for a split second, they both get the job done but one makes you shit yourself.
I noticed a slight mistake with your wording. when u say there are only 2 variables that will increase range which are mass and velocity. There is a 3rd variable which is lift adding backspin creates lift similarly to the wing of a aircraft and will effect range.
One thing about the wobble is that the BB will lose momentum inside the barrel, thus theoretically decreasing (maybe negligibly?) range. Maybe because this wobble is inside a circular object (barrel), the BB's backspin might get redirected into a side spin or diagonal spin, making it fly wrong and decreasing effective range... Just my two cents.
That's why Rhop is mainly recommended on high velocity setups with heavy bbs. Even with little contact it creates a lot of magnus effect so light bbs go up immediately. I use 0.45G bbs on my 600 FPS DMR, with Rhop I am able to achieve around 100m effective range with almost no change of trajectory.
bbs are different sizes, just like the barrel o.01mm bbs also have minute differences. I think anything that creates a lift even if it corrects at some point is pointless. Air guns do not use a hop up. So increase power and use lesser power close range. Straight flight path and of course it will drop at the end but something that goes up and and then straight means there is a whole area that you have no idea where it will hit. To be honest I love modifications but there are too many variable and when it is this fiddly it will drive me mad. But I know when i go from plinking to the field I am definently going to want range on low power, but I really want a straight trajectory, and consistency is dangerous if it is lacking. Imagine you test and its fine and then it increasrs and you hurt someone. same with accuracy if its off target due to spin then you could hit someone with a sniper who is close range
In my country, 240fps(0.5Joules) is a legal limit for fullauto. Stock these AEGs are of course designed for more energy. I once switched the stock hopup of my JG 416 (which alledgedly sold with 1.6 Joules outside of the country) to a TM silicone rubber bucking for 2 bucks...40% range increase. To the point people accused me of cheating and running hot. Chrono disproved them handily. Hop Up can improve range aswell as accuracy...maybe not as drastically as in my case, but it can. TM guns usually run fairly low energy, but because all the components are designed for each other, they still boast very good range and accuracy. The BBs just take longer to get there.
this video makes me feal like people just don't know the terminology to use, they should use the words accuracy and stability instead of range. But... the headline is also false, R-hop is still the best thing around and therefore IS exactly as great as I believe.
R-hop is arguably the best thing around but it is not as great as many people think it is. Many people think R-hop magically makes bb's fly far. Which isn't true ;) R-hop is still very much worth it, but not because it makes bb's fly far. That's my point :) Although the title is indeed a bit clickbaitey :P
Well i will give my experience with R-hops, at first when i sow your title, i thought what is this guy talking about, R-hops is proven by many, including myself . which i have install rhops for many guns (original material) for over 4 years (zkit version) so at first i was sceptical to your video, but after watching it. i must agree with most been said on it. from my experience with rhops. it gives more effective range and accuracy , but not necessarily more range. other things which is not mention on your video. is that R-hop in most guns, as you applied less hop there is less or none fps loss (except vsr stile buckins which is the oposite) now I am now experimenting with ER-hop ;)
MOUNTAINAIRSOFT I forgot to mention that? Thought I put it in the video, oh well... But you're right, that's another one of the reasons why R-hop is good, it reduces fps loss :)
and you can have a perfect hopped shot at the first time even at cold temp. it`s important for sniping cause we can`t shot tons of bb to make the bucking work properly
You're quite right in that r-hop doesn't improve maximum range, but it will improve effective range (i.e. improve your accuracy) due to its more consistent application of spin. The drop-in buckings, e.g. Maple Leaf are really good at emulating an r-hop, a proper r-hop installation will still outperform them though. If you're trying to get the most out of the gun, go r-hop. If you're lazy and want second best, try Sugru or the Maple Leafs. MORE BELOW v You've made a pretty big mistake in your theory - the lift generated through the backspin is dependent on the velocity of the BB: www.grc.nasa.gov/www/k-12/airplane/beach.html - I see you mentioned that later in the video actually but you don't seem to account for it. This means the lift force does not stay constant - you get more at the start of the shot when velocity is highest, and less as the drag reduces velocity and the spin decays (like you said, the spin decay is so small it can pretty much be ignored). The more constant velocity of using heavier BBs helps reduce this effect as the lift force will be more constant too. Tuning the hop so you get a straight, flat shot will not get you the longest range due to this effect - it's best to have a little upwards movement in the BB. Makes it a little harder to shoot at varying ranges, but you will get more range. Another perk of the heavier BBs is that for targets over ~30m/100ft they'll actually get to the target faster than lighter BBs.... they start out slower but because lighter faster BBs decelerate so fast the heavies overtake them past 100ft! Heavier is better all round :)
Snakebitey Lift generated (magnus force) indeed depends on the velocity, which I emphasized pretty early in the video. You may have missed it, but it's pretty much what the video revolves around.
Accuracy = Distance "Once BB exits the barrel the trajectory is already set." Trajectory is manipulated by the quality of the barrel and hop-up. That's the point of quality control mate! More backspin, Less wobble, etc. inside the barrel = less once the bb exits the barrel.
@@ben1ben2ben1 it does not allow you to use heavier BBs. It applies hop characteristics that are better for heavier BBs. The BB will not fly any further by changing the way backspin is applied.
@@midwestairtech It gets you more backspin so you can use heavier BBs. Thats why an RHOPd gun will over hop lighter BBs. And if you can use heavier BBs, the BBs retain energy for longer periods making them go further. No RHOP means it can't get the spin to lift heavy BBs
Your theory is sound but your conclusions are incorrect. An R-Hop does increase your range (not just your effective range) over a Flat Hop or Standard hop for several reasons. First, the hop up itself doesn't decrease the BB's velocity as much as the other hop ups. Second, it doesn't introduce as much wobble and so the BB doesn't interact with the inside of the barrel as often which also robs the BB of velocity through friction. Third, it imparts more consistent vertical back spin rather than potentially diagonal spin creating more effective lift. Your statement that once the BB leaves the barrel the R-Hop has no effect on distance is obviously correct but that doesn't change the fact that because of the above reasons the velocity *will* be higher when it leaves the barrel compared to inferior hop up types and so the range will be increased. In fact, because the effect on velocity is so much less with an R-Hop over a standard Hop up, you can see a significant increase in actual range by as much as 25%, which depending on the FPS allowed at your site, could be as much as 15 or 20 metres. In addition, a smoother barrel will increase your range to a lesser degree, due to decreased friction with the BB, causing a reduced effect on velocity compared to a less smooth barrel. So, as you said, velocity is the main parameter which effects range and as an R-Hop decreases the Velocity less than other Hop up types it does increase your range incomparision to other types of Hop Up. Now if your argument is that an R-Hop does not increase range over No Hop then this *might* be true but you would have no accuracy so range wouldn't matter anyway.
The whole comparison was made assuming muzzle velocity (and kinetic energy remains constant). Yes, R-hop CAN be more efficient in terms of energy efficiency, especially in low power setups, but if you have your setup optimized then you would've taken that into account and would be playing at the maximum permissible kinetic energy / muzzle energy anyway. That being said, even if you do not, and actually do factor in the fps boost from the R-hop (or to state it correctly: less fps-drop compared to a traditional hopup), then the difference would be marginal. You can get maybe a 5-10% increase in muzzle energy depending on what you came from, which doesn't increase range by any significant amount.
Well experience says your figures of 5-10% are wrong but assuming it is correct that still equates to potentially over 10 meters increase in range. Of course if you upgrade your gun to get to your sites maximum FPS and then upgrade your hop up to a R-Hop to increase your accuracy and as a result find it has increased the muzzle velocity as well, you are now over the FPS limit and have potentially spend unnecessary time and money to get the gun dialled in and chronographed at the site limit. I am looking at it from the standpoint of most Airsofters looking to upgrade their low to mid range gun to increase range and accuracy. At this point it is logical to start with the hop up first to gain the accuracy provided and gauge the effect it also has on range. If, at that point, there is more to do at least you haven't spend money unnecessarily. The whole premise of "lets compare 2 guns with the same muzzle velocity but different hop up to show R-Hops have no effect on the range achieved" is flawed as if you simply change one of the hop ups to match the other you will see those guns no longer have the same range proving that the hop ups do in fact have an effect on range.
If you're going to go to the bother of r-hopping, you're going to tune your muzzle energy to site limits. Take your silly arguments back to your bedroom.
remember that chrono's only measure the acceleration at the muzzle and doesn't give an accurate measure when the bb has reached it's maximum acceleration point and started decelerating. barrel length and volume will be an important factor. bore diameter may also influence on how much energy is used up during bb bouncing (from inspecting used DMR barrels, bb bounce is self evident).
To avoid confusion, the bb does not accelerate further when out of the barrel. After it has left the barrel, all parameters are set and unless some external influence occurs (e.g. wind or a twig), the trajectory is already determined. When the bb is out of the barrel the velocity will only decrease because there is no force driving the bb, there is only drag force ;) Cylinder:barrel ratio is a whole different can of worms, I've written a thread on that subject here :) www.airsoftsniperforum.com/32-general-sniper-talk/14303-cylinder-barrel-ratios-explained.html
You theory is false because backspin for each shoot is NOT constant. R-HOP produce more STABLE backspin. And it is why R-hop better than other hops...Stable backspin -> better accuracy -> better effective range. The same thing happen with HPA. Stable FPS and backspin-> better accuracy -> better effective range
ddv2005 watch the video again. this is exactly what I already said. R-hop is more accurate and improves effective range, but it doesn't magically make bb's fly far.
Yes it does effect range because the bb is not spinning initially and an rhop is the most effective way to start the bb spinning due to the fact that it is concave like the bb. For the magnus effect to even work the object in question has to be spinning
@@MegaChickenPunch ok ok i guess if you want to use a .32 and above the r hop can apply more pressure thus more backspin at the sacrifice of fps for most people .30 and below its unnecessary.. no need to overhop you just loose distance... but people do it anyway and it works great at keeping the bb in a consistent position in the barrel.. so yes it can put more backspin on the bb but thats not what its solely intended for.
I watched your video and it helped me a lot to understand what's going on a barrel and a hop up unit. Thanks ! About the part on the wobble, I agree and disagree with you. I agree with you because if two bb's get out of two barrels with the same velocity, backspin and weight, they will have the same range. So, I disagree with you when you say that no matter how many times it wobble in the barrel as long as theses parameters afformentioned are the same, the range will be the same. From my point of view each time the bb hit the barrel, the backspin will lose some velocity so the Magnus effect will stay less longer out of the barrel. So the less wobbling, the less backspin decrease, the more range. As I write this i understand why I'm wrong: because if you have more wobble of the bb's in the barrel and that you have less Magnus effect, you adjust the hop up unit to give it more backspin at the beggining so the backspin at the end of the barrel is the same as one with less wobbling. Thanks to myself for this interesting discussion.
+jackd787 rifling only prevents the bullet from tumbling mid-flight. Sure, that tumbling would increase drag and thus mean the bullet would achieve less distance before it dropped onto the ground, but the primary function of rifling is preventing uneven aerodynamics from spoiling your precision. Lack of rifling will make a gun inaccurate past 30 yards (sometimes shorter, taofladermaus on youtube has footage of attempts to stabilize darts and slugs from smoothbore barrel shotguns and sometimes the shot just curves wildly even at up close ranges) so losing a few dozen yards off a projectile that will only hit the ground a mile away isn't that relevant.
""this one will fly further than the other"" is not the point...... consistency is the only point ever made by the origins of who made it. Not effective range. you might be able to be more consistent shot at a greater range but not get better range...simple, dont over complicate this please. any! hop up! gains the range and a "very high" hop up sometimes can net you a crazy range but you will have no idea where it went....lol. you want the most range that you can consistently get.
If any of you guys ever paid attention to physics, you would know that accuracy has nothing to do with r-hops. What a r-hop system does is increase the precision of the gun, not the accuracy. Accuracy is all based on the operator and how well his aim is. Because a r-hop system basically flattens the contact patch of the hop up, it eliminates bb wobble because there is no space for the bb to seat on the side of the barrel. Thus creating a straight trajectory equaling more effective range. 👌
It only have two forces. g (gravity by earth) downward and f (air friction) to the left. there will also be a moment M caused the hopup spin in the counter-clockwise direction. OK, next let explain why the bb can go upward :) Because when bb travels to the right and spin counterclockwise, the spin will make the air on top travel longer distance than the lower. So, in the same amount of time, the longer distance traveled will end up having lower pressure, which means under the bb, air has more pressure than the top. That causes the bb travel upward.
Frank Yang less pressure on the top of the bb and more pressure on bottom of the bb. You are entirely correct. However, I urge you to look up the definition of "force" in a physics context. Draw a FBD of the bb and you will end up with exactly the same image as I have drawn in the video. Unless my physics teachers back at university were all wrong, of course :p
tldr rhop affects accuracy not range
What brand of bb's do you use for your drawings? they don't look too round....
They're special non-spherical bb's. They increase your range ;)
Nuprol, obviously.
Your videos are actually the most interesting ones I've seen about Airsoft
Rhop does not reduce FPS in the same way that a regular bucking does. At the rpm backspin required of a given weight BB the RHop system will have slightly higher FPS if its simply being installed in a given rifle, so it will go farther. If the bucking setup its being compared with is modified to spit out the same FPS as the Rhop system the difference in range will be zero, effective range will still be better due to more consistent backspin. Most of the range improvements people report are from no longer loosing FPS as hop up comes on; Rhop is more pneumatically efficient
Reece Mechanical that is correct :)
Your theory is a flawed due to the fact that you operate on a 2D plane, and you imply that spin is applied in only one direction. Your statement that after applying the same amount of backspin in two different systems, the flight path will be completely the same is false.
In classic hop-up systems the BB will never enter the bucking mound at exactly the same place. This will cause hop-up to be applied off-center causing the so-called wobble. The elongated and concave patch of the r-hop is forcing the BB to center in the barrel and have most of the spin applied in one axis.
If, and why such an off-center rotation makes the BB flight path shorter is sadly beyond my understanding of physics.
The wobble theory actually goes even deeper implying that spin is applied more effectively in regards to center of mass of the projectile. There is a quit thorough explanation by HS5 on Airsoft Mechanics.
While this may all be considered wild and unfounded, you admit in the part of your video about lower quality BBs that off-center spin, wobble or whatever we call it can in fact, shorten the distance of your shots.
Remember that the wobble hypothesis didn't came first, but was proposed after techs reported that r-hop was increasing their range.
You are correct, the spin vector is not two-dimensional but rather three-dimensional. Off-center spin induces curving. But as long as the vertical backspin is the same on two bb's, the horizontal distance the bb travels remains the same, the bb may curve right or left but that does not make too much of a difference in actual range. It has a huge influence on accuracy of course, obviously.
And, if the spin is off-center, some of the spin is not vertical so the vertical spin would be less, so that would be a difference. But the whole explanation starts with the assumption that the vertical spin is the same in the first place ;)
Obviously, when I say that the two trajectories will be the same, I am talking about the two-dimensional flight path as the three-dimensional flight path is not interesting for range, only for accuracy. This theory is not flawed, it is simply a simplified model which disregards the third dimension. Keep in mind that a bb's trajectory is a linear system, so the superposition principle fully applies here and disregarding the third dimension has no influence on the outcome. So, while technically you are correct and the bb can spin in other directions, this does not reduce range. Just so long as the vertical spin remains constant when comparing two trajectories ;)
I have read the explanation by HS5 on wobble theory but it is flawed in my humble opinion. If the bb is allowed to randomly pass underneath the bucking as described by the wobble hypothesis, it would experience some slight left/right spin along with the vertical backspin, because it didn't travel underneath the hopup mound at dead center. This does not mean that the bb rotates better or worse around its center of mass, it just means the rotation vector has a slightly different direction.
If anything, the mechanism the wobble theory proposes would imply that the bb rotates around its center of volume rather than its center of mass because it is not allowed to move up or down.
In my experience, R-hop hasn't done an awful lot to range. The minor differences I have seen have always been due to a different hop setting or because the fps was higher because less downforce on the nub was needed. I therefore do not think wobble theory is true.
And even if it were true, we're talking about minor differences. The big difference in range when installing an R-hop is not because of wobble theory but due to the difference in bb weights you're capable of using. Especially when comparing an R-hop to a flat hop or maple leaf which would also be subject to wobble theory, IF it were true.
The real reason why R-hop is great is because of its lift potential and accuracy. But it doesn't do much magic to your actual range ;)
You understand however, that "not an awful lot" is not "none at all" which is implied in your video. I just find the the whole thing to be a bit "drama-inducing" instead of an invitation for a merithorical discussion.
The more important question is, if the time / money investment into R-Hops is worth the benefits. If we assume that an R-Hop would give you even the slightest but still consistent advantage, let's say 2 meters, wouldn't it be reasonable to do it if your intetion was to squeeze out every drop of accuracy and range out of airsoft (which seems to be the case according to your posts on ASF)?
Don't get me wrong - I am in no way an advocate for the R-Hop and in my specific use case (450 fps, 0,3 gr BBs) I find it causes more problems than it solves (mostly because the required hop amount is so low that it diminishes the advantages of the system and multiplies installation errors).
Due to the very fact that besides personal opinions there is no hard evidence / documented results that would prove or debunk the theory that R-Hop is superior / inferior I would much rather prefer to have people invest their time for proper tests instead of just theorizing.
Excuse my rant-ish behaviour, but I'm quite emotional about the fact that there seems to be a stagnation period in airsoft teching going on due to the fact that there aren't a lot of techs willing to do some advanced r&d and further develop ideas by the likes of HS5 and Maekkii and instead opt for simple and "drop-in" solutions.
The reason I advocate drop-in solutions is because they are easy to do by people who have no experience with it. I like things made simple. R-hop is a great concept but the same thing done by an R-hop is also done by a maple leaf bucking for example.
The reason I've made this video is because I've found it strange that by changing a mechanism by which something works the outcome would be vastly different. So I came up with this theory (quite a while ago, really). I have since then tested several scenarios with different guns (stock buckings, R-hops, maple leafs, flat hops) and concluded that as long as the bb's and muzzle energy were the same, the range was the same, assuming the amount of backspin was also set the same way. Which fully coincides with the theory. So don't worry, it's not all talk, I have actually tried this before I put it up on the internet ;)
I actually aim to make a video on the subject including some real world tests with scopecam footage of several bb's and hopup methods to compare trajectories at different ranges and demonstrate that the theory checks out as that is much easier to believe than 20 minutes of theory. I'm even building a gun to really push the limits for demonstration purposes :)
If an R-hop is worth it, then by all means it should be used. And R-hop is worth it in many scenarios. In low fps builds such as assault rifles shooting below 1 J, R-hop's added lift potential compared to a maple leaf is worth quite a lot because it allows you to use heavier bb's which extends your range. Also the reduced amount of downforce on the bucking means you can get higher fps with the same power train which is very useful for AEP's where power is limited. But in bolt action guns, a maple leaf provides the same accuracy and lift as an R-hop in my experience and is easier to do, so I prefer maple leafs in that scenario as you can't mess them up ;)
Don't get me wrong, I by no means think we should be happy with what we have and we should always be pushing for innovation. But we should also gain an understanding why certain things work and others don't. The real world results with R-hops are interesting, but if we can build a theoretical model on it that checks out with the real world results then we can build new ideas on those principles :)
Therefore it is in my opinion that people understand these basics of bb trajectory dynamics, because if you understand the theory, then you can know how to improve. If you don't understand the theory, then it's just messing around and hoping the results improve :P
assuming the velocity and vertical spin of the bb are constant, r-hop will indeed have 0 effect on range. side spin will have no effect. assuming when you say range you mean the displacement of bb parallel to the barrel. Unless the magnus effect that causes the side spin messes with the aerodynamics and somehow amplifies the drag/negative acceleration of the bb. his theories are not flawed, at least not in ways you stated. a real life fair test is practically impossible if you intend to see the effects on range (effective range however is more doable). but still it's unlikely that someone would invest their time in such test.
If, and why such an off-center rotation makes the BB flight path shorter is sadly beyond my understanding of physics.
Because the magnus effect is what makes the bb counteract gravity and if the force between shots is relatively the same it will decrease the range by making the bb spend less of its energy counteracting gravity and spend more of it curving. It isn't physics, it's just some common sense stuff.
From what I’ve seen R hops do from the ones I’ve installed and made for personal weapons and other peoples, is the range it increase is effective range, stock hop ups will reach accurately to 150 feet and start waining off at about 170-200, while R-hop makes its accurate to 200 feet, but doesn’t increase actual range in how far the bb flies, maybe by a little from a better trajectory.
Rhop does very slightly increase range too, because something that isn't flying straight is losing energy from well, not flying straight. By making your hop more consistent, and straight. You're making the BB lose energy while going perfectly (or as close to it as possible) straight, which makes it so youre using the energy of the BB to go only straight instead of wobbling around.
BB quality also has a lot to do on how they deal with air friction, which greatly affects both effective and max range.
Hi Reliku. I was wondering what length inner barrel i should use with the Ares Striker S1 with a mancraft kit
If you go from a standard bore barrel to a tight bore less air can escape past the BB giving it a higher fps, Wich means more range. If a BB goes through a barrel smoother (les woble in the barrel) it has lower friction, Wich means more fps and more range. Being able to apply more spin to a BB makes it possible to shoot heavyer BB's giving you more range
What about barrel length? How does that effect effective range and accuracy?
It doesn't
Your theory is base on misuse of a R-hop system...because the point of using a aftermarket bucking or R-hop is to increase your spin to be able to lift heavyer bbs wich results to range and consistency increase , so what the point of saying that R-hop isnt't that great if you dont even use it properly ?
That ring is giving me a cringe feeling.
Interesting video, going to test out my new maple leaf bucking soon with the concave-shaped nub. Hope its as consistent as r-hop, because Im trying to build as good vsr as possible.. :P
The RHOP stabilizes the bb as it travels down the barrel, eventually leaving and moving toward the target. The advantage of this stabilization is that there is less wobble on the bb when it exits the muzzle of the gun. This reduction in wobble in combination with the backspin reduces the likelihood of the bb traveling in the left or right direction once out of the muzzle. If a bb has sidespin, occurring due to wobble, you lose both range and effective range due to the deviation right or left. This is why RHOP creates both increase in both range and effective range. Its the same concept as a golf ball being hit, a slice or hook will never get the distance that a straight shot would get if all other variables kept constant.
Jacob Webster A bb curving right/left still has the same distance from the shooter, because forces acting on the Y-axis (off-center spin) do not influence motion on the X-axis (bore of the gun). (because of the superposition principle)
There is a very small difference due to off center spin slightly slowing down X-axis velocity once there is velocity on the Y-axis as well but this is a difference in the order of centimeters over a 50 meter trajectory ;)
Your videos are legit the best thank you so much!!!!
the reason they dont wobble around as much is because the friction force is applied smoother over a greater length rather than it being applied abruptly. Think of it as gently easing on the breaks for a couple of seconds vs slamming on them for a split second, they both get the job done but one makes you shit yourself.
Dude, this video is GOLD. Thank you ;)
What's better pdi chamber and w hold bucking or a r hop
Lana Douglas AA chamber and a maple leaf would be my recommendation above both of those.
ya just had to use that fancy ass pen
I noticed a slight mistake with your wording. when u say there are only 2 variables that will increase range which are mass and velocity. There is a 3rd variable which is lift adding backspin creates lift similarly to the wing of a aircraft and will effect range.
Never mind u do correct that later.
One thing about the wobble is that the BB will lose momentum inside the barrel, thus theoretically decreasing (maybe negligibly?) range. Maybe because this wobble is inside a circular object (barrel), the BB's backspin might get redirected into a side spin or diagonal spin, making it fly wrong and decreasing effective range... Just my two cents.
You have my sub sir! Very valuable content!
I've heard R-hop applies hop more consistently and results in more precise shots versus a standard hop up.
That's why Rhop is mainly recommended on high velocity setups with heavy bbs. Even with little contact it creates a lot of magnus effect so light bbs go up immediately. I use 0.45G bbs on my 600 FPS DMR, with Rhop I am able to achieve around 100m effective range with almost no change of trajectory.
I'd like to see the field that allows you to play with a 7.5 Joule DMR as well as the gun itself.
@@jonaswolfsberger7158 it’s 3,34 J
@@jedrzejzeleznik7997 As an engineer, with a minor in mathematics, it's 7.5 bud....
@@casongrumbles5248 Hardball😀
@@casongrumbles5248 600 fps on 0.2g = 400 fps on 0.45g = 3,34J
bbs are different sizes, just like the barrel o.01mm bbs also have minute differences. I think anything that creates a lift even if it corrects at some point is pointless. Air guns do not use a hop up. So increase power and use lesser power close range. Straight flight path and of course it will drop at the end but something that goes up and and then straight means there is a whole area that you have no idea where it will hit. To be honest I love modifications but there are too many variable and when it is this fiddly it will drive me mad. But I know when i go from plinking to the field I am definently going to want range on low power, but I really want a straight trajectory, and consistency is dangerous if it is lacking. Imagine you test and its fine and then it increasrs and you hurt someone. same with accuracy if its off target due to spin then you could hit someone with a sniper who is close range
Totally agree!
The ENTIRE point of R-hop is stability and accuracy. A new hop-up system dosn't add kinetic energy to your BB, thus it doesn't give you range.
Koofuku1ce r hop might not add energy, but it doesn't rob as much energy as a huge rubber being stuffed halfway down trying to hop a .4
Koofuku1ce It is merely increasing accuracy within that range, no hop up increase your KE, all of they will rob away some KE
In my country, 240fps(0.5Joules) is a legal limit for fullauto.
Stock these AEGs are of course designed for more energy.
I once switched the stock hopup of my JG 416 (which alledgedly sold with 1.6 Joules outside of the country) to a TM silicone rubber bucking for 2 bucks...40% range increase.
To the point people accused me of cheating and running hot. Chrono disproved them handily.
Hop Up can improve range aswell as accuracy...maybe not as drastically as in my case, but it can.
TM guns usually run fairly low energy, but because all the components are designed for each other, they still boast very good range and accuracy.
The BBs just take longer to get there.
this video makes me feal like people just don't know the terminology to use, they should use the words accuracy and stability instead of range.
But... the headline is also false, R-hop is still the best thing around and therefore IS exactly as great as I believe.
R-hop is arguably the best thing around but it is not as great as many people think it is. Many people think R-hop magically makes bb's fly far. Which isn't true ;)
R-hop is still very much worth it, but not because it makes bb's fly far. That's my point :)
Although the title is indeed a bit clickbaitey :P
@@Relizu with a quality r-hop your bbs will overcome gravity, going further
Rhop is about consistency of the backspin, wich a longer patch does provide, so..
Rafael Soares Pinheiro indeed, but many people think it magically makes bb's fly far ;)
Well i will give my experience with R-hops, at first when i sow your title, i thought what is this guy talking about, R-hops is proven by many, including myself . which i have install rhops for many guns (original material) for over 4 years (zkit version) so at first i was sceptical to your video, but after watching it. i must agree with most been said on it. from my experience with rhops. it gives more effective range and accuracy , but not necessarily more range. other things which is not mention on your video. is that R-hop in most guns, as you applied less hop there is less or none fps loss (except vsr stile buckins which is the oposite) now I am now experimenting with ER-hop ;)
MOUNTAINAIRSOFT I forgot to mention that? Thought I put it in the video, oh well...
But you're right, that's another one of the reasons why R-hop is good, it reduces fps loss :)
in airsoftsniper. i am sicariatus :)
and you can have a perfect hopped shot at the first time even at cold temp. it`s important for sniping cause we can`t shot tons of bb to make the bucking work properly
Great video, lots of helpful information
You're quite right in that r-hop doesn't improve maximum range, but it will improve effective range (i.e. improve your accuracy) due to its more consistent application of spin. The drop-in buckings, e.g. Maple Leaf are really good at emulating an r-hop, a proper r-hop installation will still outperform them though. If you're trying to get the most out of the gun, go r-hop. If you're lazy and want second best, try Sugru or the Maple Leafs. MORE BELOW v
You've made a pretty big mistake in your theory - the lift generated through the backspin is dependent on the velocity of the BB: www.grc.nasa.gov/www/k-12/airplane/beach.html - I see you mentioned that later in the video actually but you don't seem to account for it.
This means the lift force does not stay constant - you get more at the start of the shot when velocity is highest, and less as the drag reduces velocity and the spin decays (like you said, the spin decay is so small it can pretty much be ignored). The more constant velocity of using heavier BBs helps reduce this effect as the lift force will be more constant too.
Tuning the hop so you get a straight, flat shot will not get you the longest range due to this effect - it's best to have a little upwards movement in the BB. Makes it a little harder to shoot at varying ranges, but you will get more range.
Another perk of the heavier BBs is that for targets over ~30m/100ft they'll actually get to the target faster than lighter BBs.... they start out slower but because lighter faster BBs decelerate so fast the heavies overtake them past 100ft! Heavier is better all round :)
Snakebitey Lift generated (magnus force) indeed depends on the velocity, which I emphasized pretty early in the video. You may have missed it, but it's pretty much what the video revolves around.
um uh, um uh, uhm uh, uhmuh, mm uh, m uh
Video would've been 10 minutes if he had simply written a script
Im stil trying r-hop but good vid
Accuracy = Distance
"Once BB exits the barrel the trajectory is already set."
Trajectory is manipulated by the quality of the barrel and hop-up.
That's the point of quality control mate! More backspin, Less wobble, etc. inside the barrel = less once the bb exits the barrel.
Great video. Do people really think a BB will fly significantly further with an r hop? I always understood the conversation to be about accuracy.
It does because it allows you to use heavier BBs
@@ben1ben2ben1 it does not allow you to use heavier BBs. It applies hop characteristics that are better for heavier BBs. The BB will not fly any further by changing the way backspin is applied.
@@midwestairtech It gets you more backspin so you can use heavier BBs. Thats why an RHOPd gun will over hop lighter BBs. And if you can use heavier BBs, the BBs retain energy for longer periods making them go further. No RHOP means it can't get the spin to lift heavy BBs
Your theory is sound but your conclusions are incorrect. An R-Hop does increase your range (not just your effective range) over a Flat Hop or Standard hop for several reasons.
First, the hop up itself doesn't decrease the BB's velocity as much as the other hop ups.
Second, it doesn't introduce as much wobble and so the BB doesn't interact with the inside of the barrel as often which also robs the BB of velocity through friction.
Third, it imparts more consistent vertical back spin rather than potentially diagonal spin creating more effective lift.
Your statement that once the BB leaves the barrel the R-Hop has no effect on distance is obviously correct but that doesn't change the fact that because of the above reasons the velocity *will* be higher when it leaves the barrel compared to inferior hop up types and so the range will be increased.
In fact, because the effect on velocity is so much less with an R-Hop over a standard Hop up, you can see a significant increase in actual range by as much as 25%, which depending on the FPS allowed at your site, could be as much as 15 or 20 metres.
In addition, a smoother barrel will increase your range to a lesser degree, due to decreased friction with the BB, causing a reduced effect on velocity compared to a less smooth barrel. So, as you said, velocity is the main parameter which effects range and as an R-Hop decreases the Velocity less than other Hop up types it does increase your range incomparision to other types of Hop Up.
Now if your argument is that an R-Hop does not increase range over No Hop then this *might* be true but you would have no accuracy so range wouldn't matter anyway.
The whole comparison was made assuming muzzle velocity (and kinetic energy remains constant). Yes, R-hop CAN be more efficient in terms of energy efficiency, especially in low power setups, but if you have your setup optimized then you would've taken that into account and would be playing at the maximum permissible kinetic energy / muzzle energy anyway.
That being said, even if you do not, and actually do factor in the fps boost from the R-hop (or to state it correctly: less fps-drop compared to a traditional hopup), then the difference would be marginal. You can get maybe a 5-10% increase in muzzle energy depending on what you came from, which doesn't increase range by any significant amount.
Well experience says your figures of 5-10% are wrong but assuming it is correct that still equates to potentially over 10 meters increase in range.
Of course if you upgrade your gun to get to your sites maximum FPS and then upgrade your hop up to a R-Hop to increase your accuracy and as a result find it has increased the muzzle velocity as well, you are now over the FPS limit and have potentially spend unnecessary time and money to get the gun dialled in and chronographed at the site limit.
I am looking at it from the standpoint of most Airsofters looking to upgrade their low to mid range gun to increase range and accuracy. At this point it is logical to start with the hop up first to gain the accuracy provided and gauge the effect it also has on range. If, at that point, there is more to do at least you haven't spend money unnecessarily.
The whole premise of "lets compare 2 guns with the same muzzle velocity but different hop up to show R-Hops have no effect on the range achieved" is flawed as if you simply change one of the hop ups to match the other you will see those guns no longer have the same range proving that the hop ups do in fact have an effect on range.
If you're going to go to the bother of r-hopping, you're going to tune your muzzle energy to site limits. Take your silly arguments back to your bedroom.
remember that chrono's only measure the acceleration at the muzzle and doesn't give an accurate measure when the bb has reached it's maximum acceleration point and started decelerating. barrel length and volume will be an important factor. bore diameter may also influence on how much energy is used up during bb bouncing (from inspecting used DMR barrels, bb bounce is self evident).
To avoid confusion, the bb does not accelerate further when out of the barrel. After it has left the barrel, all parameters are set and unless some external influence occurs (e.g. wind or a twig), the trajectory is already determined. When the bb is out of the barrel the velocity will only decrease because there is no force driving the bb, there is only drag force ;)
Cylinder:barrel ratio is a whole different can of worms, I've written a thread on that subject here :)
www.airsoftsniperforum.com/32-general-sniper-talk/14303-cylinder-barrel-ratios-explained.html
You theory is false because backspin for each shoot is NOT constant. R-HOP produce more STABLE backspin. And it is why R-hop better than other hops...Stable backspin -> better accuracy -> better effective range. The same thing happen with HPA. Stable FPS and backspin-> better accuracy -> better effective range
ddv2005 watch the video again. this is exactly what I already said. R-hop is more accurate and improves effective range, but it doesn't magically make bb's fly far.
consistency is 90% of accuracy in airsoft
The Airsoft Tech did the same video... who copied who?
U pass more timing thinking then testing
Joao sauwer I do both, I just like to have a theoretical backup for everything :)
the range it's influenced by " etc" :))))
Chef Pan-Pan?! 😅
Yes it does effect range because the bb is not spinning initially and an rhop is the most effective way to start the bb spinning due to the fact that it is concave like the bb. For the magnus effect to even work the object in question has to be spinning
r hop is not for more backspin but a more consistant placement of the bb in the barrel.
You are absolutely WRONG
@@MegaChickenPunch ok ok i guess if you want to use a .32 and above the r hop can apply more pressure thus more backspin at the sacrifice of fps for most people .30 and below its unnecessary.. no need to overhop you just loose distance... but people do it anyway and it works great at keeping the bb in a consistent position in the barrel.. so yes it can put more backspin on the bb but thats not what its solely intended for.
@@fammilyman01 no no
My point was rhop has no solid nub and you have 0% chance to load the bb exactly in the same spot because there is no hardstop.
I watched your video and it helped me a lot to understand what's going on a barrel and a hop up unit. Thanks !
About the part on the wobble, I agree and disagree with you.
I agree with you because if two bb's get out of two barrels with the same velocity, backspin and weight, they will have the same range.
So, I disagree with you when you say that no matter how many times it wobble in the barrel as long as theses parameters afformentioned are the same, the range will be the same. From my point of view each time the bb hit the barrel, the backspin will lose some velocity so the Magnus effect will stay less longer out of the barrel. So the less wobbling, the less backspin decrease, the more range.
As I write this i understand why I'm wrong: because if you have more wobble of the bb's in the barrel and that you have less Magnus effect, you adjust the hop up unit to give it more backspin at the beggining so the backspin at the end of the barrel is the same as one with less wobbling.
Thanks to myself for this interesting discussion.
Wtf is everyone turning into professors in this comment section?
Zucc lol I for one have become more stupid from watching this and I feel I am not smart enough for air soft. I’m going back to water guns
Research how rifling in a real gun affects range... it makes a difference!
+jackd787 rifling only prevents the bullet from tumbling mid-flight. Sure, that tumbling would increase drag and thus mean the bullet would achieve less distance before it dropped onto the ground, but the primary function of rifling is preventing uneven aerodynamics from spoiling your precision.
Lack of rifling will make a gun inaccurate past 30 yards (sometimes shorter, taofladermaus on youtube has footage of attempts to stabilize darts and slugs from smoothbore barrel shotguns and sometimes the shot just curves wildly even at up close ranges) so losing a few dozen yards off a projectile that will only hit the ground a mile away isn't that relevant.
dude please stop doing "umm".
nice video btw :)
""this one will fly further than the other"" is not the point...... consistency is the only point ever made by the origins of who made it. Not effective range. you might be able to be more consistent shot at a greater range but not get better range...simple, dont over complicate this please. any! hop up! gains the range and a "very high" hop up sometimes can net you a crazy range but you will have no idea where it went....lol. you want the most range that you can consistently get.
Yes, that's exactly why I made this video. Many people wrongly believe rhop will magically make bb's fly far.
If any of you guys ever paid attention to physics, you would know that accuracy has nothing to do with r-hops. What a r-hop system does is increase the precision of the gun, not the accuracy. Accuracy is all based on the operator and how well his aim is. Because a r-hop system basically flattens the contact patch of the hop up, it eliminates bb wobble because there is no space for the bb to seat on the side of the barrel. Thus creating a straight trajectory equaling more effective range. 👌
if you learned physics, you will know that there will NOT be any force upwards. lol nice try :)
It only have two forces. g (gravity by earth) downward and f (air friction) to the left. there will also be a moment M caused the hopup spin in the counter-clockwise direction.
OK, next let explain why the bb can go upward :)
Because when bb travels to the right and spin counterclockwise, the spin will make the air on top travel longer distance than the lower. So, in the same amount of time, the longer distance traveled will end up having lower pressure, which means under the bb, air has more pressure than the top. That causes the bb travel upward.
Frank Yang less pressure on the top of the bb and more pressure on bottom of the bb. You are entirely correct. However, I urge you to look up the definition of "force" in a physics context.
Draw a FBD of the bb and you will end up with exactly the same image as I have drawn in the video.
Unless my physics teachers back at university were all wrong, of course :p
Are we just going to ignore the fact that R hops give barrels a better effectively INCREASING RANGE? lol