Why you should train Wrestling & Dagger
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 28 ส.ค. 2024
- Wrestling is the foundation of fighting with the sword, so everybody trains wrestling... right?!
Here's a recent video from Matt Easton, why wrestling and dagger defense is great for self defense:
Is HEMA a BAD martial art for the modern world?
• Is HEMA a BAD martial ...
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You summarized key points very well. I study grappling (Brazillian Jujutsu) 1-2 times a week as schedule allows alternating between dogi/gi & no-go. Though I'm not a HEMA practitioner (non in my area in Northern Japan that I know of), I practice other weapons based systems (Pekiti Tirsia Kali & Bujinkan Taijutsu). The grappling has helped me in base, zoning in and out of ranges & tactile feel. Grappling with weapons is an area of study that is underrated. When I travel to visit my dojo locations in Tokyo & Yokohama every couple of months, I get to experiment.
Bujinkan in Yokohama? A student of Paul, perhaps?
@@kodain Paul is one the reasons why I stayed in the Bujinkan. I met him when I was making a decision to leave. After meeting his group and a few others in Osaka and Nara I decided to give it another go.
@@TenchiBushi Glad to hear. I was in the Bujinkan for eight years until the instructor and I no longer saw eye to eye. I've met and trained with Paul at a taikai. Very unique person, and it was a somewhat different approach to training, but I found it OK. He also drew us all shodou, which was nice.
Absolutely! We've been doing dagger and wrestling for a while at our club now, focusing on wrestling for the past couple of months. One of the best things I've found for Fiore abrazare is looking carefully at the illustrations of the plays and pulling wrestling fundamentals from there. Is there a collar tie? A bicep tie? Wrist grab? Underhook/overhook? There are so many things in that section that aren't explicitly stated. Then there are all the other sections where wrestling is happening too :D Great video and I appreciate more people drawing attention to this!
Thanks, I really hope that a least a couple of basics make it into the HEMA mainstream as everyone can benefit from them. :)
I would appreciate any content on wrestling and dagger, whether it is sparring or technique oriented.
Thanks for the feedback, I'll see what I can do :)
I love wrestling, it's something I started doing a lot of to differentiate my club from others. It's also super useful for people that don't know how to wrestle, and will try to draw dagger when distance is closed. If you know how to wrestle, they usually don't get the dagger out before you lock that arm down.
It's also super weird that people don't practice wrestling because, well, one, it's EVERYWHERE in the treatises. Maybe more common than swords even. And two, tournaments are commonly held on hard wood flooring. If you don't know how to break fall, you can really injure yourself if you end up tripping, which I have seen a few times.
Yes please add in some wrestling and dagger work. I does apply very well to the sword play.
I have one important point to add. A detail I pointed out in an article some years ago:
If you are trying to follow the description for throws in manuscripts, be carful, because some are designed to throw your opponend on the head or in positiones where he cannot use he technique for falling safe (and noone told you 😉).
Remember the throws from Judo were changed for a save freeplay, those arent.
Good point, I was thinking something similar. Do Marozzo as the techniques are intended and your partner won't be around for long... You can do those only slowly and controlled and that doesn't suit a lot of people since they often want to "play" at normal speed or with more intensity. If you wanna practise the latter and also aim towards tournaments I think the "modern" solutions like BJJ, Luta, Judo... are worth a try.
Besides that, cool video! I love wrestling - if you're into it, DO IT! :D (But be careful, it's really easy to get yourself injured, trust me, I know... xD)
I thought I mentioned something like that, but it's worth pointing out anyways :) and like I wrote to another comment: I think we can train a couple of the more dangerous techniques in a heavily controlled environment and then switch these moves out (for safer ones) for more playful sparring still keeping the real technique in mind. Like in fencing I will not hack through my training partners, though I fully know that in any real context that would have been the thing to do. Still, playful fencing can get my footwork, timing etc. up to par to land a strike to the target, which would undoubtedly be useful^^
@@SchildwachePotsdam you get me wrong. You refer to the plays that call for broken limbs and necks. I refer to the plays which did not mentioned it, but if you do them correctly for example the partner hit the floor with the top of the head first and you werent aware or warned of it.
Thats mostly because modern practisioners have sportified throws in mind which everyone could fall savely.
@@OliverJanseps (Bit out of context, but: This whole conversation makes me wanna get an army of ringer dummies and kill them "properly" according to source texts a couple of times a week 😎 If I only had the space and money... 😓🤣)
Point for wrestling and dagger: it's incredibly cheap. You can make a training dagger from a rolled up magazine and some ducttape, and wrestling needs no gear whatsoever, except maybe some mats.
Point against wrestling: it is really, really easy to hurt yourself or others, to a point where you almost shouldn't be doing it unless you have someone on hand who knows what they are doing. And it's not just the obvious stuff either, Fiore shows you a standing Full Nelson - if you are the one in a hold and try to stand up wrong, and put your strength into it, it's easy to permanently mess up your spine. This isn't something you'll necessarily notice without knowing about it - clocking someone with a longsword over the head is immediately and obviously bad, but overextending your knee joint...
The solution is to do an ungodly amount of research, whether going to a good wrestling club or on the internet/from books, or preferably both. This is a problem on its own, because now your research topics expanded from just HEMA (which may include learning one or more languages) to medicine as well, and that takes a lot of time.
Another solution? Find a wrestling club (doesn't matter whether BJJ, judo, MMA, grecoroman or whatever) that lets you attend once every week and go there. That's probably the easiest thing to do if your time is limited.
Just went back from the weekend HEMA training session that included a couple of hours of wrestling.
And it was demanding physically, but still lots of fun.
Regarding your mentioning that it is impossible to train for potentially traumatic locks and controls, that is, in my opinion inherently true.
Learned this topic a little, not in the HEMA context, but as part of eastern martial arts.
Nonetheless, the same principles apply.
I used to learn them slowly, just to know how it feels, but going full speed and strength might be too dangerous for the opponent.
Throws that use over straightened elbow as a lever were especially scary for me.
I agree. I think we can train a couple of more dangerous techniques in a controlled environment and then switch a couple of moves out for more playful sparring still keeping the *real* technique in mind. Like in fencing I will not hack *through* my training partners, though I fully know that in any real context that would have been the thing to do. Still, playful fencing can get my footwork, timing etc. up to par to land a strike *to* the target, which would undoubtedly be useful^^
Please do the commentary! And if possible, I would love to see a grappler/Greco-Roman wrestler analyze Fiore or a good example of Fiore grappling.
Great stuff, can't wait to see more!
Hi Martin! Sure, i'd love to have more videos on wrestlomg
Good stuff, I look forward to see more!
I agree 100%. Every HEMA class I teach has at least 10-15 minutes of wrestling and or rondel and every 4 weeks or so a full 2 hours of durchlaufen.
I'd love to see some commentary on wrestling and dagger.
Yup! I wish we would be practicing much more wrestling in our club. A commented sparring from you would be very interesting. Cheers
Thanks for the feedback - I'll try to get some proper footage soonish ^^
I hope Martin doesn't mind, but I have one medieval wrestling match w/commentary on my channel. Me doing Fiore and my opponent doing German. Have some other harness fights that include some wrestling commented as well. I can give a link if it's okay, and if not my apologies, Martin! Not trying to hijack the channel, just spread wrestling love!
@@corrugatedcavalier5266 spread the love! :D
@@SchildwachePotsdam Thanks Martin!
Here is a match of Ringen vs. Abrazare, Luke Marra vs. Myself. There is also some grappling and/or dagger in any harness fights on my channel th-cam.com/video/ad9OUjfZgD8/w-d-xo.html
I study dagger because it’s fun. I’m sure your points are good but I do dagger because it’s my favorite.
(wrestling coach) wrestling is not just about center of mass, its quite important, but you left out the importance of relative positioning. in the 2-3 minute mark where your side is completely exposed to his front plus actively exposing yourself. wrestling is not about having power from any position, it is specifically being in the right position to apply technique. not to rip on your guy you were with but there were multiple times he had basically and underhook on you from the side, partly youd given him this position. if he were a better wrestler he would have exploited your side right there. as far as your head and arm throw is concerned, only expose your side while youre making the movement to get your hips in the right spot for the throw, dont expose your side before youre in the right position to throw and dont be deadset on holding the headlock especially if you havent gotten to the throwing part of the throw yet. but ive never seen that standing armbar you were doing that was pretty neat
Thanks for the feedback and you are right of course with the criticism :) Often times, when I play with beginnners I'll do semi-stupid stuff just to see, if they already have a proper reaction or trying to work myself out of bad positions. Other times, I am just semi-stupid without purpose of course :)
@@SchildwachePotsdam its incredibly important to do silly stuff and to let beginners get an up you especially to build their confidence. just the relative position just cant be stressed enough lol. im assuming the more standup posture yall have is to be closer to wrestling in a swordfight?
@@elijahoconnell Yup, that's right :)
@@SchildwachePotsdam one thing ive noticed with head and arm throws as an fyi forewarning just incase for anyone; ive bonked my head doing that throw a couple of times, thankfully only bonking myself on the matts but as someone whos done this throw on concrete a couple of times, its definitely something to watch out for. generally (if not always) id hit with the top side (a couple degrees from center of head). i believe this happens when the rest of the throw is done well but my head is over extended/leaning into the throw too much
hi, Danke für das interessante Video, ich bin selbst Luta Livre (brasilianischer Ringkampf) Schwarzgurt und Trainer und als Norweger sehr an den Prinzipien hinter Glima, der nordischen Ringen Variante. Alle in der Kriegskunst verwurzelten Ringerstile, in Europa aber auch das Sumo bei den Japananern oder die Regeln des mongolischen Ringkampfes, haben alle gemeinsam, dass das Ziel ist den Gegner zu Boden zu bringen, während man selbst sethen bleibt. Im Glima wird dieses Prinzip durch das Regelwerk noch besonders hervorgehoben. Gibt es auf deutschem Boden jemanden aus der HEMA Gemeinschaft, der sich mit Glima auskennt?
Gerne! Bezüglich deiner Frage, schau doch mal in die HEMA D.A.Ch Gruppe auf Facebook. Dort hast du zumindest schonmal alle deutschsprachigen HEMAisten vereint.
Like the video any specific style of wrestling you are using?
I am studying Marozzo and Fiore mainly. :)
I was wondering if you and your opponent are in the bind and you are in opposite stands would tripping his front leg with your back leg and then continue with wrestling or try to deliver a hit with the dagger immediately be a viable strategy. also I was wondering same thing with a sword. in most of your videos after delivering an attack you always suggest retreat. however while at close range and your swords are in a bind and you are in opposite stands what is really preventing me from swiping his leg as long as I raise the sword they way you showed at the beginning of the retreat. then if he block it I can still retreat the way you showed. but if I'm able to trip his leg then I can come up to his side with me at 90 degree angle to him while simultaneously attacking him with the sword. why would that not work?
I train wrestling and dagger because I live in London
NEEDS MORE RINGEN!
Good pitch for why wrestling should be studied. Best reason: ITS FUN!
The ultimate reason to do most things really :)
But no dagger was shown
That's right at the start, pretty short though as I didn’t want to expose my beginners too much and I wasn't filmed in these sessions^^
@@SchildwachePotsdam are you following marozzo in the dagger as well?
@@shotgunridersweden yup (Book 5 to be precise since the plays in book 2 are more like fencing with a sword^^)
@@SchildwachePotsdam yes, marozzos dagger is an outlier, it is as you say closer to fighting with a short sword, and as its unique in this way, even to the point where marozzos unarmed defence vs dagger assumes everyone else attacks as seen in the german corpus, i have a suspicion its more of a duelling system for a specific context
@@shotgunridersweden I think it's fairly clear, that at least Marozzo himself thinks the plays in book 5 are meant for self-defense as he addresses two of his senior students in that small introduction.