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Dave Ramsey Eviscerates Co-Host George Kamel for Preaching the 4% Rule
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 10 พ.ย. 2023
- Dave Ramsey cracks down on his co-host George Kamel for having promoted sustainable distribution rates in retirement. On his own show he discussed the FIRE movement. Who's right?
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Wasn't george talking about retiring early at 30? Thats a whole different situation than 65.
This is also how I understood it.
Yeah, and that’s a hidden upside to FIRE: while that first decade is crucial to your long-term success, if you retired at 30 you can return to work and course-correct. Trying Dave’s strategy at 60 and having a bad first decade in the market means you’re screwed.
It's a situation no sane person would ever consider.
If you retire at 30 you would NEED to course correct. There's no way that can work.
Even retiring at 60 is questionable. Generally people shouldn't retire before the age of 80.@@epbrown01
Retiring at 35 is so different than retiring at 65.
The caller is misunderstood and Ramsay didn’t realize it was based on low retirement savings at 35 years old
Leaping to such anger like that without checking the context, public humiliation, continued beratement. What a nightmare.
Idk, why you're saying public humiliation. It would only be humiliating if that is actually what happened, but it's not. The video from George is still up so it's obvious Dave doesn't disagree with it. It is also obvious the caller did not understand the context of George's video as the video is literally called Why retiring at 35 is a bad idea. So there's obviously more context to George's vid than "The Power of Zero" is providing. You guys just want there to be drama in everything.
@@BosuDX The reaction Dave had was one that presumed George had made a critical error. It didn't give him the benefit of the doubt. If you heard that your friend said something that surprised you and you disagreed with, would you jump to anger like that or would you say something like. "I don't know the context, but I expect you may have misunderstood what my friend was saying."
@@BosuDX While George was right in the end, it doesn't take from the fact that Dave got insenced and basically called him a dumdum. You can be humiliated even when you're right.
Yes, I completely agree. And this is why I now believe Dave Ramsey is too big for his britches. Because he has so much experience and knows so much, he gets upset when people don’t. he no longer has the heart of a teacher
He's a asshole. We lease our truck cause it makes us money and he said it was stupid and the most expensive way to own a car. After 39 months of just oil changes and tire rotations we turned it back in no negative equity. My Cruze I own and have already dumped 4000 in it to keep it paid off when that 4000 could have been another lease with a reliable car. After 6 years the cars value is worth nothing and you have more into it then it's worth. @@uria711
George's advice was for a fire person trying to retire at 30. The humble brag caller failed to mention that detail.
Exactly
Exactly. And the fact that everybody is ragging on Dave is crazy.
Plus Dave was too arrogant to hold off and look into all of the facts. He thinks he's all-knowing, and as often happens, has egg on his face and looks like an out of control egomaniac. George needs to get out and spin off his own thing, just like AO. I'd hate to be Dave's daughter and basically "stuck" working for Dave or she is cut out of both her job/reputation and all of company assets she is set to inherit.
Dave will fucking loathe the FIRE movement. He won’t countenance it.
correct. he did NOT give dave the full picture. hence the blow up from dave. this was probably brought up, and george told him "watch the video."
then saw what he ACTUALLY was talking about.
I feel bad for George. Kudos to Rachel for pushing back a little.
The minute my boss calls me 'stupid' on-air, I'm telling him to go f himself and getting up out of there. George doesn't need that.
She didn’t push back enough.
This video is pretty ingenious, George was specifically referring to people who want to retire in their thirties, not this gentleman who is working until his normal retirement date.
@@TheFattestDad No, he specifically addressed that fact. George clearly stats using a 4% withdraw rate, you would have 3% of your retirement left after 30 years which is the standard retirement calculation. It is also shown clearly in the chart. How about you start learning math and stop simping for Dave Ramsey.
@Cjamal66 Go simp for Dave Ramsey somewhere else. George clearly states you would have only 3% of your retirement left using the 4% rule. He also clearly shows that using 5%, you have only 17% left after 20 years and its gone at 25 years. I would say that is pretty clearly agreeing with the 4% rule.
It's like Dave flew off the handle before he fully realized what they were talking about, the FIRE movement and withdrawal rates will typically need to be much more conservative.
Dave never accounts for market declines, which GREATLY affects the timing and the withdrawal %.
He does account for market declines. That’s why he says 12% average. He doesn’t recommend people have a withdrawal rate of 29% just because it returns 33% some years. He says it averages 12 so you can withdraw 8. Over a 15 year period, your account balances will not go down. Over a 3 year period, it might go down.
Correct @@wadelevan1787
@@wadelevan1787and 12 is a lot
Historically isn’t it closer to 8?
Yes, he does. An average of 12% is the compound average. That means over 100 years, the average value of the market is (1+12%)^100, which is 85,522 times growth. Or, put another way, if the market is 85,522 times larger after 100 years, the average rate of return, INCLUDING crashes and down years is e^(log(85,522)/100)-1, or 12%.
Yes, but if the market declines 20% at the time of a needed withdrawal (i.e. an RMD), you’re not only having to withdraw a larger % that you budgeted, you have to have a much higher % return to catch up. So timing and risk is critical. Some may not have the ability to ride out the decline and rebound.
I love Rachel. She is the only one who stands up to him. Everyone knows 12 percent return every year is ridiculous!!!!
Their livelihood is on the line. She's set for life regardless of checking him or not.
She's the ONLY who can get away with it
@azteca6695 yeah, she will always be daddy's lil girl.
But did she REALLY stand up to him on this though? It was just a very soft ball pushback.
What he gone do, fire his daughter?
you should never scold your staff in front of others, let alone the public.
Horrific management!!!
100%!
The Boss is way out of line >__< What he should do was to have a debat on this
He literally wrote in “entreleadership” to never scold your employees in public
Dave probably should have just remained calm and told the caller that he'll ask George about that video and see what George actually said. I'd like to think George is smarter than to put out misinformation. Hope that meeting between Dave and George WAS cool headed and gave George the benefit of the doubt. Not good for Dave to jump to conclusions without letting George explain. George is a good guy.
Disgusting behavoir, wow I'm shocked. George man, I'm sorry. Know most everyone sees sense and stands with you. Can you imagine the wrath directed at George after this recording session ended? Jeesh
In Dave's math, you don't pay taxes, that's a good world to live in
You wouldn't pay taxes if it's coming out of a Roth IRA or 401k after age 59.5. But that wouldn't apply to those on FIRE as George was discussing
There's a lot wrong with his math here; no one can sustain a 12% return year after year. An 8% withdrawal post market downturn could be catastrophic for a retirement portfolio.
He's also assuming everyone has other income streams aside from their retirement withdrawals, which they don't.
@@aj_mcnamara you pay taxes on 401k withdrawals, it's just taxed as income. So if you're withdrawing 50k/year, you're basically paying 0 tax, but if you're withdrawing 150k/year, a huge chunk of that is going to tax.
@@aj_mcnamara Umm yes you pay taxes on 401k withdrawals unless it’s a Roth 401k, which almost nobody has
@@mish4181 last year’s S&P return was 24%, not sure where you got 8% from
When it comes to Math, I trust George more than I trust Dave. Also, George understands the current market better than Dave does.
@@FURDOG1961well he is half of Dave’s age….
@FURDOG1961 the more I watch Dave...the less I believe his numbers.. wouldn't surprise me if its all smoke and mirrors.
@@dirtdevil70I think he has a ton of real estate and most of it double or tripled through the last 5 years.
@Bibleguy89-uu3nr yep...he's out of touch with regular people...
@@FURDOG1961 Dave has the advantage of time. George has done it without being an idiot in his early years.
Imagine if you withdraw 8% annually and retire at the start of a "lost decade" (zero returns over 10 years). You'll be completely screwed.
Yeah and notice how none of them mention that all they do is parrott what ever dave says .
Exactly people are not taking into account a lost decade. Also if you can live on 3-4% that’s amazing as long as your living life to the fullest just invest the other 7%
@@Dividendsmattertooand in boom decade ppl can live off 16% withdrawal rates. 😂
@@Dividendsmattertoomy index funds ain't nothing since biden took office😅😅😅😅
Plus if withdrawal over 25k.You got pay taxes on ssi benefits.34K IF MARRIED.
I grew up in poverty, I saw my mother being a struggling senior citizen barely getting by, having to live in subsidized housing and qualifying for food stamps. I’ve saved like mad, will have a pension in addition to my assets. I’m doing 2-3% and will let my accounts grow. I need that sense of security. My sons may be left a huge pile of money but so be it.
Imagine what he does when the cameras are off🤷🏾
I find him to be extremely condescending.
@joemunch58 truth hurts. People need to stop letting their feelings get in the way of the message and doing what they’re supposed to do
Well, he did brand a weapon to staff once. They run the company like a cult. One time a staff member became pregnant, so he fired her for not being married and going against Christianity.
Yes, Google for the employment lawsuits.
If he talks down on his employee like this in front of cameras, just imagine how he treats them behind closed doors? Yikes! I've never seen someone so arrogantly wrong at math like Dave Ramsey!
He's also quite wrong with his oversimplified math and assumptions.
@@AlanPeeryhe’s predicting a very rosy picture into the future with no volatility
Everyone is ignoring the fact that Georges video was talking about what's wrong with the early retire at 30 scenario. one being you can only draw a measly 4% if it gonna last 60 plus years. the caller did not state that and Dave did not know that was what Kamels video was about. Dave was thinking the guy was planning to work another 30 years and could only live on 4%.
@@Remo22Mod Still doesn’t justify Dave’s poor reaction.
He's fired employees before for having sex outside of wedlock.
Dave needs to take this video down.
lol exactly
I've often gotten cringe sores while listening to Dave's radio show, when he scolds this person or that, calling them stupid, or insinuating they're corrupt, without fully considering the entirety of any given situation. And even though I often feel like loud-mouth-know-it-alls have it coming when they parade over their egos, I still can't help to just feel sorry and pain for Dave and his family when I hear these types of clips.
@@Rick-the-SwiftI was thinking the same. You can see Rachel’s pain. This was a low stakes situation… Dave had a tantrum over what seems to be nothing. I think he was just mad George went off and had his own opinion. Dave DESPERATELY needs yes-men around him for whatever reason. And when he doesn’t get that… he unravels with misdirected rage and it’s embarrassing to watch. Rachel has to choose between dignity or inheritance…
Here’s the video we discuss in this interview: Dave Ramsey Eviscerates Co-Host George Kamel for Preaching the 4% Rule
th-cam.com/video/9OmuFsK59b8/w-d-xo.html
You know what I've listened to Dave a lot for getting through baby steps one and two getting out of debt, still working on those steps. But what really gets me here is his close-mindedness and not being open to other data that sheds light on this situation. In Dave's world Dave is right and everyone else that doesn't agree with him is wrong. That's what I don't like
His arrogance is unbelievable. Who complains about taking a more conservative approach to withdrawing your retirement nest egg let alone publicly bashing his own employee/partner without him even being able to defend himself? This was a tiny dick move 😂
Dave is so full of himself. His ego is ridiculous. Telling people that 8% drawdown in retirement is OK is a huge diservice, as it puts them on the bleeding edge of hoping their investments perform each and every year at a high rate, and requires you to go all stocks at a later age to achieve these numbers instead of a prudent mix of stocks and 5% treasuries to hedge. Very few financial folks out there will recommend 8% withdrawals.
@@993mikeHe even conceded to Rachel saying be more conservative at 10% and subtract 4% and that’s 6%. Four to five percent is just a tad more conservative than 6%.
Everyone is ignoring the fact that Georges video was talking about what's wrong with the early retire at 30 scenario. one being you can only draw a measly 4% if it gonna last 60 plus years. the caller did not state that and Dave did not know that was what Kamels video was about. Dave was thinking the guy was planning to work another 30 years and could only live on 4%.
This! This comment! I was going to say the same thing! Seems like one big misunderstanding and Dave didn’t take a step back to verify the claim and just went off. Man I feel for George, I probably would quit. Dave embarrassed the crap out of George in front of millions. I love George!
@@bhilde55 nah. Dave embarrassed himself. George is right and anyone with a single brain cell can see it.
@@bhilde55 Me too! George gives great information in his videos and always adds a little humor to each. Love them.
Honestly I think you're right, I wonder what sadness response to is this
But man Dave should look back on this and feel embarrassed
He seriously called George a “super nerd” 😮
lol, at 9:09 he called him a "4% withdrawal moron"! 😂
I tried listening to Dave in years of hard times and nothing applied to me. I was already eating “rice and beans” family vacations were car camping in the National Forest. All he did was demoralize me for having too small of a shovel.
That reminds me of when I read The Millionaire Next Door when I was broke after leaving my teaching job. Reading that book didn't do a damn thing for me. It's not the great resource that people think it is, especially compared to books like Automatic Millionaire or The Total Money makeover.
Dave will freely admit his advice doesn't help people below a certain income level. I haven't listened to him in a few years but he used to phrase it in terms of needing to make around 4x the minimum wage in your area before his strategies were viable. At anything below that, you just don't have the income and expenses against that income to really make significant lifestyle changes. And instead you should be focused on making more money, either through taking on debt to invest in yourself (yes, he would promote debt for this), or through working additional jobs. In current terms, if minimum wage in your area is $15/hour, it would mean you need at least $120k/year in income (single, not married) before his advice is meant to apply to you.
@@phonyalias7574
I don't think that's quite accurate. I make $50K, and I make enough to put his debt snowball into practice. Once that ball gets rolling, it will free up $650/month, over $7500 a year, which can then be used for saving and investing. I make about double the median income in my city, not 4x.
I think Dave is way out of line. He should apologize to George. George's math makes more sense and is reasonable. Sorry Dave. I would fire Dave, not George.
If you work for Ramsey, don’t be surprised if he pulls a Ramsey on you. He’s a narcissist. He even calls them “Ramsey personalities” 🙄 When you work for Dave, you can’t have your own thoughts, you’re only allowed to have Dave’s thoughts regurgitating from your mouth. Go do your own thing George.
Not saying you’re wrong overall, but they’re called Ramsey personalities because they work for Ramsey Solutions. And they’re not gonna be allowed to deviate from Dave on air.
People lack common sense. He built his company on principals a, b, and c… his employees shouldn’t go on air under his $$ and say do x, y, z. If they want to do that then venture out on your own and build your own company. If he is wrong or not on the %.. save and invest and stop wasting money and you will be fine. If you are smart enough to save and invest I’m confident you will figure out how much you should personally withdraw.
He is such a rude narcissist. So terrible to carry on like that about his employee. I’d take George’s advice over him.
my concern isnt about Dave believing if 4-5 percent is too low or not tbh. My real concern is how he just left George hanging and trashed his statement ON LIVE AIR IN PUBLIC without even checking with him first. He could've easily said he disagree and will check back with George with his numbers and see why he said that but to just trash him was sick to me as if he havent suck by his outdated work since he's worked with Dave
Edited: I’ve changed my mind with my concerns
Yes Dave bashing George was my main concerns but I forgot how big Dave platform is and realize his 8% stance is actually really concerning with the amount of ppl following his plan
George needs to start his own show and I’ll watch that
He does has his own youtube channel, you can support that by subscribing!
Dave's daughter was trying to correct him, but his pride refuses to hear anything other than what's in his head.
"Powdered butt syndrome"! I have heard Dave say that many times. It is so true. He's not going ever follow what his daughter says.
Well that’s not gonna go over well next team meeting…dust off that resume
8 % isn't reasonable. Money guy even agrees with George. Dave isn't always right
@@laundrygoddess4Yeah, but the money guy doesn’t drink beer.
@@tonycrabtree3416 so?
You can tell she's holding back. What a bad look for him.
Agreed. Rachel is trying to tow the Company line, but she's too smart for this. As a Dad what shitty situation he put her in.
Ditto, he sounds like a raging narcissist. Scarry thought WWJD Dave?
I have always respected Dave Ramsey. But as a Christian, this was a tough video to watch. As Christians we are suppose to have the most charity and grace . Dave Ramsey sounds so abrasive, and is not gracious towards his own employee in this video . What a disappointment. Most people will not listen to what you have to say if you are so unkind !!!
Dave is usually talking about retiring at 65, or when home is paid off and have enough money in 401k. You have to make your money last 30 years. George, on the other hand, is responding to folks that want to retire crazy early. Taking out a lower percentage means you can live through more ups and downs of the market during your 60 years of retirement. (Twice as long of retirement)
This is the best comment on here.
The amount of people who missed it is surprising.
George should quit like Alexander O’Neal. As a manager it’s common rule to never throw your team under the bus. Wow unbelievable.
I think you meant Anthony O'Neal lol
@@aceflamez00 They all look the same to him. ;)
@@gingercat7925😂
Why did O’Neal leave ?
Anthony wasn't thrown under the bus.He went out to create something that was his vision.I believe they parted on good terms.
Why people listen to Ramsey beyond getting out of debt is beyond me. Dude knows how to get people out of debt and thats it.
I agree. I do not agree with his political or religious views but I do like his principles of getting out of debt and saving.
100%
Nah, you're completely wrong. The creator of this video is misleading, I'll be gracious and assume from ignorance, not from intention. Here's what Dave really says:
1) You can AVERAGE a 12% return over the LIFETIME of your investments. In my 10 years of following Dave's investment advice, he's spot on. I'm currently at a 11% return and expect it to AVERAGE closer to 12% in the year or two.
2) George Kamel was describing (and CRITICIZING) the FIRE investment plan and pointing out its flaws. He WAS NOT endorsing it!
@@java_debugger You're wrong. You can't stay there in retirement, or your portfolio is gonna get decimated when the market is down and you won't be able to recover in a timely manner. Sure, go all out when you're accumulating and won't touch the funds for years to come, but retirees can't be 100% stock-invested with no volatility buffer. Anyone who tells you otherwise either doesn't know what they're talking about or doesn't want you to.
Now, to the 8% withdrawal rate -- this is an absurd recommendation. He simply doesn't understand the math, nor does he understand the various risks in retirement such as sequence of return, inflation, and spending shocks, and following his advice is likely to get adherents into trouble as they try to implement it.
@@maliqmatthew1009Not if you invest the way he suggests; it goes down with the market, not decimated. Biggest drop I saw in my 401k was the spring of 2020; it dropped 30%. And guess what? At the end of year, it recovered and I had a 4% gain! Statistically, by the way, if you contribute something like 5% of your income (Dave recommends 15%) combined with an employer match, for 30-40 years, you WILL have multiple millions in your 401k.
George needs to have his own show.
He does: th-cam.com/channels/NIFV-Bgh2YtrWQxmrgFS4w.html
Just like others who have left Dave's show.
I'd watch
@@sagatuppercut2960Who are the others that left? I want to see their videos lol
Watch Anthony O'Neal " The Table"@@Hunter-ef4ch
“If you’re making 12%,” “there are a lot of stupid studies out there,” Dave is right here. The problem with the study that was cited is not with a realistic rate of return that people should be getting.
The other issue is some years are down years, meaning when you withdraw you’re losing principal. That’s where the far lower safe withdrawal rate comes from. I 1000% trust the studies done by experts over one man’s opinion.
@@traceswann7054 Yeah its called "sequence of returns risk" and Dave completely - and I mean TOTALLY gets this 100% wrong - the market isnt linear - never has been never will be
@@traceswann7054I would argue that that 1 man is an expert who has done multiple studies.
@@traceswann7054You don't need studies done by experts just look at the lifetime avg rate of return for the S&P 500.
On avg I have made 13.8% over the last 26 years a few years down but mostly up and still came out at 13.8 compounded each year. I don't see Dave's numbers being that far off at all.
George is right and Dave is banking on best case scenario every year.
Being completely honest S&P has only ave 12% return since 1945 Between 1901 and 1944 the ave was less than 1%
If you assume retirement at 67+, which is probably more in line with old fashioned Dave's thinking, it's not too crazy. An average person retiring at 67 is far more likely to run out of life before they run out of money with an 8% withdrawal rate.
But for an early FIRE-style 30+ year retirement, the context of George's video, Dave is absolutely wrong.
@@ordinaryhuman5645 can you be more specific? If you’ve already made it to 67 when is your average age of death? And can you qualify “far more likely?” That’s a big term.
@@financesage the CDC estimates average age of death to be around 76 years old after the covid outbreak but for countries comparable to the US its estimated around 82. So if these numbers are consistent the average person could expect retirement to last around 9-15 years before death if they retire at 67. I think that's what the other comment was getting at as someone who building towards FIRE would need their money to last 2.5-5x as long.
He’s a product of his privilege. Born into upper middle class with parents that got him set up in real estate at 18 and know real estate investors for young master Dave to pitch to. bankers that gave him notes that he should’ve never got. His whole story is only possible because of his privilege. And that’s fine! But it’s not OK to try to white wash it or pretend it wasn’t privilege that most of us never, ever see.
The question is “how long George will remain employed at Ramsey Solutions”? I can’t imagine him staying there much longer. Feel bad for the guy.
He’s definitely outgrowing him
He can probably go off on his own at this point. He has enough people following him specifically by this point. I've always liked him on the show and on his own videos. He seems like a voice of reason most of the time.
George is already millionaire and Dave is ready to sack him
@@davidc4408Once you start pushing back on the big dog, there's a good chance you're gone. Dave does nothing but surround himself with yes-men.
@@jgallone yep. They did it with chris Hogan. Nobody is safe unless blood related.
to George's defence he was talking about retiring early in your 30s. If you retire that early you need a low withdrawal rate in order to not deplete your nest egg before you outlive it. But you can't withdraw from retirement fund early without tax penalties. So the FIRE movement is about investing in non-retirement fund.
In contrast, if you retire in your 60s then a withdrawal rate of 8-10% is feasible. You'll have plenty to live on and not even touch the principle nest egg. You can live on only the growth perpetually. Less chance of you outliving your nest egg.
It's recommended to save at least 15% of your income in a 401k. You can use online calculators to estimate how much you should save based on your age and income. Saving at least 15% of your income in a 401(k) can help ensure that you have enough money to retire comfortably. By saving this much, you can take advantage of compound interest and potentially grow your retirement savings over time.
Effective personal finance management is more significant than the amount of money saved, independent of income source (work or investment). To optimize financial outcomes, individuals might seek help from a professional financial advisor, who can provide specialized advice and strategies to reduce expenses and maximize revenue.
@@ericwilde4583 I completely agree; I am 60 years old, recently retired, and have approximately $1,250,000 in external retirement funds. I am debt free and have very little money in retirement funds compared to the total value of my portfolio over the past three years. To be honest, the Fin-advisor can only be neglected, not rejected. Just do your due diligence to identify a fiduciary one.
@@JosephineGaule This is exactly how i wish to get my finances coordinated ahead or retirement. Can I get access to your advisor?
Do your due diligence and opt for one that has tactics to help your portfolio continue consistent and steady growth. “Emily Lois Parker” is accountable for the success of my portfolio, and I believe she has the qualifications and expertise to accomplish your objectives.
@@JosephineGaule This is useful information; I copied her full name and pasted it into my browser; her website popped up immediately and her qualifications are excellent; thanks for sharing.
Man Dave's arrogance is sickening. I love how he cherry picks that the S&P is up 10% YTD and fails to mention that it was -20% in 2022
How much was the S&P500 down in 2022?
Actually the S&P was up in 2021, it was down in 2022
Fact my been flat since biden took office
@simonlaw276
"I love how he cherry picks that the S&P is up 10% YTD and fails to mention that it was -10% in 2021"
Not arguing with you. I agree that Dave avoids mentioning losing years in the market.
Just want to clarify that the S&P was UP 26.6% in 2021, NOT down ~10%.
I think you meant 2022.
2022 was DOWN ~20%.
No, he mentioned the rate of return averages over a decade in the video. It doesn't matter what it did last year...
I'd rather be a "goober" than an arrogant assh*le. I think is says something about Ramsey to throw an employee under the bus on the air before even giving them a chance to explain their position, and then to continue to sling insults because they don't embrace his erroneous financial assumptions. He didn't even address the question the caller was talking about. Didn't the guy say he wanted to retire early? Didn't he say he had accumulated $120K? Didn't he say he was on the edge of total financial independence? I'm no financial genius but even at 20% return he isn't even close.
I don't listen to Dave ramsey. He is very arrogant and loud and thinks that he is Gods gift to the Universe!!!
YEP
The caller was asking about coast-FI and “coasting” from his current $120k to what he will need for his retirement number at retirement age. It’s definitely better to be on the conservative side if you plan to coast-FI
@@nodsib Sorry, I don't know what coast-FI means.
@@Columbus1152Coast-FI means that you've saved enough that you will be able to reach FI by your target, without contributing any more money (hence, "coasting"). For example, if their FI number was $1M, and they are planning on retiring in 30 years, then that's doable with just the $120k they have now, growing at an 8% annual return. It's obviously super dependent on what returns to expect, and how far out retirement is, so I would generally recommend anyone who wants to coast-fire to use conservative return estimates. It's better to save a little bit extra just in case
Dave is a boomer who made money while boomers were making money
At 8:53 rachel feels like she has sold her soul for a job and inheritance. I've felt that way before. Those situations don't last. You either get out of there or you lose your identity. How do you pull $80,000/yr forever when a 30%-40% market crash occurs? Giving people false hope that they can withdraw more assuming that there won't be corrections, so they plan to live above their means, goes against the entirety of what Dave Ramsey has advocated people do his entire career.
I think he needs to keep this up because he needs to continue with the fantasy that mutual funds that outperform the S&P500 over time exist . He keeps saying to find one, but I have never heard him mention a specific one on air. Ever. Not once.
I wonder why???
Dave is a narcissist...he just threw his own employee George under a bus
Yes, who does that?
But this proves one thing sir . AO made the right choice . George can do the same and have his own channel like AO did .
Dave clearly is not factoring in the sequence of returns risk that’s present. If you are fortunate enough to retire during the “right” time period, then you don’t have to worry about running out of money. However, if you do retire during a period of high inflation and low investment returns, and you’re taking out 8% a year, you will run out of money. For someone that purports to be a professional financial advisor, this is just plain stupid of Dave Ramsey to give such idiotic advice.
@@stephenrice5938 100% agree
@@muradshawar who is AO? I’m new watching these channels. Thanks
Definitely only Dave Ramsey on the Dave Ramsey show that thinks an 8% withdrawal rate is fine. Everyone else on the team know it's just plain wrong but don't dare to correct Dave.
They probably know how spiteful he is.
Plus if withdrawal over 25k.You got pay taxes on ssi benefits.34K IF MARRIED.
Let's be honest, there is no correcting Dave. We know that. They know that. So definitely not going to go back and forth on air.
For 46 out of the last 48 years, if you had retired and withdrew 8% a year, your money would have lasted 30 years. Go look it up. DR is actually right on this one. Heck, T-bills are currently paying over 5%, so unless you think the US government is going to default on its debt, then you can get AT LEAST that much of a return! Sheesh
@@jasonbroom7147 Sure you can always take out 8%. You can withdraw 8% of $1000 portfolio. Dave specifically said that you could take out $80k/year on a $1M portfolio. Try that, and you only are successful 36% of the time for varying 30 year periods over the last 123 years.
Lol, the caller really didn't get his question answered...
Not logically, anyway.
Living off 4% is “not realistic” but expecting and counting on a 12% return year over year is absolutely hilarious
George is crafting his 2 week notice
It wouldn't surprise me. If my boss verbally berated me in front of the whole world to see and hear for really no reason I think I would take a long hard look at things going forward especially if their was a ongoing pattern. George may be the next one to jump that ship.
I once wanted to work for this man, I was rejected and I was hurt at the time. Blessing in disguise
Maybe you're just weak
He’s very hypocritical. He kept that guy working who was cheating on his wife and fired a female employee that got pregnant out of wedlock. She took him to court and they ended up firing whatever that guy’s name was that supposedly wrote the millionaire book. Which sucked by the way.
@@Mk-qb2ny Actually that is %100 true and a good thing.
But he said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness." Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ's power may rest on me. 10That is why, for Christ's sake, I delight in weaknesses, in insults, in hardships, in persecutions, in difficulties. For when I am weak, then I am strong. 2 Corinthians 12: 9, 10
REALLY? NOT NICE @@Mk-qb2ny
@@Mk-qb2nylol
Amazing that Dave doesn't understand math and the risk of sequence of returns when markets don't return a consistent % every year. Dave is flat out wrong! Michael Kitces and William Bengen may be extremely intelligent and a little nerdy, but are not idiots!
This is embarrassing. Dave used the word "asinine" - pretty good description of his own behavior here.
Dave’s pride as a Christian is crazy not even letting Rachel speak and there’s no need to put down others like that. There’s a better way to get point across. I like the team but that is disheartening
On one of Dave's show I heard him talk about how he would be "Preaching" at a Church he would be visiting over the weekend. I can only imagine what kind of Church would be letting Dave Ramsey "Preach" on Sunday morning.
His pride as a Christian? What's that got to do with anything?
Dave is claiming that he’s Christian…. A christian should not have pride like him !!
@@Rome1017Lights - Dave's prideful and that is one of the seven deadly sins. Dave has to get a handle on this and his temper.. You can't change what you don't acknowledge..
What the caller and Dave seemed to miss is that George was saying you'll want to take out 3% IF you are "FIRE" retiring at age 35 or whatever. George was NOT saying take out 3% at retirement age. The caller really didnt set the call up right and misinterpreted what George was saying in his FIRE video.
Edit: I think the general consensus is you should take out 4% regardless, but for the sake of the topic of conversation, the information was initially misunderstood.
Doesn't sound like that would matter to Dave based on his response.
@@jake-mv5oioh yeah, Dave is all in on 8% at retirement age. I was more so just saying the caller misinterpreted George's info.
8% still only has about a 30% chance of success if you are talking a typical 30 year retirement.
I personally don’t think Dave will ever admit a mistake. Trump syndrome.
I didn’t miss understand. When I called, I specifically mentioned that George’s point was about a 30 year time horizon.
If my boss basically called me a moron, basement dwelling know nothing nerd, and I was a millionaire like George, I’d QUIT.
I have been retired for five years now. Although I've been adhering to the 4% rule, things are challenging as I did not anticipate. *30%* of the *$600K* I invested in st0cks is lost to the market. How can I diversify my portfolio for retirement
Now you are retired and depend on your investment, it’s best you redistribute your capital. To simplify the process, you could allocate your resources with the help of a financial advisor.
I needed a good boost to help my dwindling stock portfolio stay afloat, hence I and came across an expert who helped a lot to grow my port-folio from $275k to approx. $850k in two years.
This is really nice. I worry that I have a couple more years before retirement, and I want to switch to using a financial advisor, I could really use the expertise of this advsors.
My financial advisor is *Sharon Louise Count* I found her on a CNBC interview where she was featured and I reached out to her afterwards via her website
I just googled her name and I'm really impressed with her credentials; I reached out to her since I need all the assistance I can get. I just scheduled a call.
I like that Dave wants people to have hope. I really do like that. And yet, his attacking his own employee who is trying to protect people from sequence risk...it hurts. Nuance is needed.
Nuance is the name of the game here.
Plus if withdrawal over 25k.You got pay taxes on ssi benefits.34K IF MARRIED.
@@MrDonny27 Gees, how many times are you going to make the same quote in one thread?
You are starting to act like a bot.
It must be a bot.
Seems like a professing Christian (Ramsey) would be able to see the serious error of getting so worked up about money that he goes off on a rant about taking away people's hope (money). Tell me you serve money without telling me you serve money.
Well, this is definitely not CLICK BAIT. They advertised a heated discussion and they definitely delivered. WHEW!😎
Yea, I thought it was click bait too.
7:39
@@RustyZipper Just realized I am the same age as David Ramsey. No jealousy here, I don't have his money but I live in a quiet village in Northeastern Brazil with my wife of 25 years in a very comfortable home watching these shows. 😎
@@RoddieSimmons - that’s fantastic 👏 I’m a bit older that George and certainly not a millionaire. But I’m debt free and work two jobs. I just came back from a two day trip with my g/f and spent around $850 all in. It made no impact on my finances. All of the meals we ate were in nice places. Now I order off menu’s reading left to right, I try to ignore the right hand column as Dave recommends. I always reassure my g/f when we look at the menu to “order anything you want, it makes no difference” 🍻
Don’t listen to a guy that pulls his gun on his employees in meetings and fires them for having kids out of wedlock when you are planning for the next 30 years of your life
In other words, don't listen to any Americans
Look how scared his poor daughter is too. She's been living under his tyranny for so long, she can barely think anymore.
Dave’s math only works if you get a 12%+ return EVERY SINGLE YEAR. And that never happens. If you started retirement with 5 down years in the market then withdrawing 8% every year would be financial suicide.
Ppl need to think for themselves. 12% returns every single year is unrealistic and so is withdrawing 8% out every single year.
The Ramsey team arguing with each other about how stupid their financial advice is pure gold. 😅
lol
You can’t say it’s stupid or wrong if it works, you may disagree with it, just like you can’t tell someone who’s been married for 50 years that there marriage advice is wrong and you’ve only been married for 5.
I met one of his CPAs at a bar in Cost Rica, said he was among the most tyrannic and terrible people to work with, if you didn't live exactly up to his principles.
Ramsey doesn't want people to be financially independent. He wants consumers to buy his financial products.
Bernie Madoff used to promise 12% returns
FACTS you see the lawsuit that Daves company is dealing with 150 mill lawsuit from false mutual fund pushing
@@Josh-py9rqit's America anyone can sue anyone. Just because someone is sued doesn't mean they're guilty by default.
@@Josh-py9rqI don't see any record of a lawsuit about mutual funds, and Ramsey doesn't recommend any specific mutual funds so I don't see how that would make any sense.
@@funtechu I thought the lawsuit was over the timeshare exit company.
@@lovethemflowers There is a lawsuit over that, but that's completely different from what OP is referring to. I don't know if OP made it up, or if they are referring to some other lawsuit.
Imagine working for a boss like this…a complete a-hole to talk about his own trusted staff like this on air! Regardless of whether he’s right or wrong, the way he handled this was wrong and uncontrolled!! Not someone you want to follow
Right, something seems amiss here.
Dave owes a public apology to George! He's being mean! Why hasn't George quit yet? I'm disappointed in Dave.
7% is NOT conservative. Averages are averages. They aren’t annual guarantees. Humble yourself, Dave.
“Don’t argue in front of the kids.” George will be the next one to leave. My deal is , before Dave overreacts, why not get the full story? Why scold George in front of millions and later you’ll see the video and realize there was more to it well too late you’ve made him look stupid!
Precisely: Dave should have said that he'd review that episode, and then re-iterate whatever he wants to say without bad mouthing George. Very unprofessional of Dave.
@@jroysdon it’s disappointing because George is one the best Ramsey personalities !
@@theentrepreneur607 Yes George is the best personality! I thinkJade is giving him a run for his money though 😀 Of course it's impossible to NOT like Rachel!
Dave can get crazy sometimes. There are no guarantees. Past performance DOES NOT guarantee future results. Everyone needs to embrace their own risk tolerance. In my experience, 4.5-5% is probably the max you should start off at; and you should re-evaluate every year or two. There is no reason to make up your mind years in advance when you can adjust along the way!
His tone is harsh
The 4% rule is more established and more widely respected than Ramsey alleges
Preaching 8% SWR's is giving people a false sense of security. Being too aggressive like this is very dangerous and irresponsible for someone in a position of influence.
SWR is a function of many factors, must to mention a few - age, health, asset allocation, asset location, etc. SWR is not a one size fits all
He seems like an angry man throwing everyone else under the bus
Even Rachel was wondering about that one 😂😂😂. Dave assumes the stock market only goes up (completely forgetting what happened in 2008 for example). The more I learn of George Kamel, the more I like that guy. Hope he stands his ground or goes independent like Anthony O’Neal did.
I would turn in my resignation letter.
Sorry Dave your wrong on this admit it .what about the negative years ? I guess when you have 500 million you don't live in the real world.
I'm a fan of Dave but he's delusional thinking you'll get 12% return every year
That's Dave problem, it looks like nobody on his team can think for themselves.
George is correct . This video George put out reffers to FIRE withdraw rates. You'd have to withdraw lower rates to stretch your money longer.
They’re arguing two different points. George is talking about 3% of the entire portfolio so it’s about right 100/3 is about 30-35 which he talked about, Dave is talking about withdrawing from the interest/profits your portfolio has made that year 8% of 1,000,000 would be about $80000 and I think people can make that work. Two different arguments confused
George was talking about retiring at 30. Dave at 65. Hello people
65 is too young. Retiring at 30 is absolutely CRAZY.
I love Dave but he failed to account for the irregularity of returns. The sequence of return risk is what he’s missing.
I imagine what Dave would say to that is that there will be years in your retirement that it loses or goes down, but it will eventually go back up and will correct itself during the duration of your retirement.
Dave is amazing at helping people get out of debt, but his investment strategies are simplistic and naive. Everyone doesn’t have a 100 million dollar income.
@@1981lashlarueyep, that is probably what he’d say. But he also would never say that if you lose 50% one year, you’d have to gain 100% the next year, just to get back to even. Think about it. I know the 50% example is absurd, but it illustrates the point. The sequence is critical. Dave ignores that.
@@danamarie8718 You're right. Losing 50% would be extreme but possible. However, unless you are at the very end of retirement or your funds are so low that you'd need that extra time to recoup them, most could afford to wait to the few years for it to go back up again.
Ramsey doesn't believe in reducing the amount of your portfolio from stocks to bonds as you get older. Personally, I think that's the safe bet and is what I plan to do as I get older-- start moving a little more towards bonds than stocks. I started late so I have some catching up to do so I'm heavily on stocks for now.
@@1981lashlarue Except that this is exactly what a sequence of return risk refers to. NO, it will NOT go back up if the funds need to be withdrawn in the meantime. If someone had $1,000,000 in a retirement account and the market dropped 20%, they'd need a 25% recovery just to get back to where they were. If they're in retirement and distributing rather than accumulating, those dollars are gone forever, with holdings having been sold at a loss and not coming back to catch the new recovery and no new dollars coming to replace.
I haven't seen 12% in years! Pass me whatever Dave is smoking 😅
been drawing 3% first half of year from emerging growth, large cap, small cap funds ,, bumped it to 5 a few months ago .. as of now the total funds have 14% growth including my draws .. year before it was a 3% draw while they all sank
Dave's math is asinine. Leaves no room for growth, which, you know, is the Biblical teaching - to "leave an inheritance to your children's children."
what Ramsey has taught me is that you can build a massive brand by fooling people who know less than you, even if you don't know much.
George is right. Does it really go up by 12%? I really don't think people can rely on that. Also, even if it's 10%, as you mention, the growth is definitely not consistent.
So last year it was negative, add to that inflation. Does that mean you live in a cardboard box that year?
Anybody who smugly guarantees 12% a year returns is a charlatan.
@@n1chr0me6 I do think it means you have to cut back during down years. Let's say you have two million dollars saved. If it goes down by 10% in one year, you're now down to $1.8M. If you spend $100k that year for living expenses, you're now down to $1.7M. Even if you go back up by 10% the following year, you're still only at 1.87M! Never mind the inflation and the stress.
@@jaehwan123 lol you sir, might be an idiot.
@@mikeshepherd9197 He live in a time where you could succeed with one parent working factory job, he's very out touch on how market works today. My advice is to use the 4% rule if it works for you and if you made 12% give you self a bonus at the end of the year by taking 2% what you made and do something fun. If your you need more to afford to live try 6% it seem to risky to go for 8% but I understand if you need too also because bills can be expensive if your nest egg is smaller than the average.
From the year 2000 to 2010 the S&P 500 returned 0%. In the world of finance we call that the lost decade. I am going to side with the CFP(r) guide on this one.
Dave ignores whatever is convenient to ignore.
I've been diligently working, saving, and investing toward financial independence and early retirement, but the economy since the pandemic has eaten up the majority of my $3 million portfolio. I want to know: Do I keep contributing to my portfolio in these unstable markets, or do I look into alternative sectors?
Just try to diversify your portfolio to other market sectors, that way your investment is balanced and you don’t get to make so much losses.
I stopped listening and taking financial advise from these TH-camrs, because at the end of the day, I end up with a bunch of confusing stocks without knowing when to take profit, In reality, all I needed was professional advice..
How can I participate in this? I sincerely aspire to establish a secure financial future and am eager to participate. Who is the driving force behind your success?
I’m a contractor, and my job doesn’t permit me the time to properly analyze my holdings/evaluate stocks myself, so I’ve had a fiduciary " MRS MARISOL CORDOVA " actively restructuring my portfolio for the past 7 years now to match the present market condition and that’s how I’ve been able to stay afloat, knowing when to buy and sell…maybe you should do the same.
I buy the idea of using the services of a financial advisor because finding the balance between saving and investing requires counsel.
He went on a tirade without understanding the full context of the video George put out. They're both right, on 2 different scenarios.
Dave forgot to mention that is 8% on a year to year basis
If the s&p 500 does 12% you withdraw 8% but if it was 10% you do 6% and so for
and if you’re negative you don’t withdraw a penny. You’ll use your 2-3 year emergency fund until the market recovers
Withdrawing 8% year to year independent of returns will wipe you out for sure
i guess Dave missed the whole great depression thing where it took 23-24 years to BREAK EVEN - 1929 to 1953 or 54 - look it up, its a FACT
I think the confusion is in that George was answering the question based on the FIRE movement and someone retiring at like 40 years old. Dave is coming at it from the perspective of someone retiring at a more typical retirement age. However, if my boss talked publicly about me in that manner we’d be having a serious discussion about the hostile work environment he’s created.
He's still wrong even if it was non FIRE
Uh oh..another lawsuit from an employee of Ramsey Solutions?
It doesn't matter. The 8% number is ridiculous to recommend unless people have way more saved than they'd need to afford a baseline living.
I said the same thing in a comment above. Was scrolling to see if anyone else thought the same thing.
Even at just a 20 year retirement, the numbers show there is huge danger in an 8% withdrawal rate. The problem is, one really doesn't have a looking glass to see how long their retirement will last; just basing it on relatives only gets one in the ballpark.
Dave Ramsey irresponsibly attacks employee George Kamel with childish name calling. Ramsey could have said something like, "I disagree with George and here is why" versus the name calling he engages in.
Expecting a 12% annual return every year is whats ridiculous
I think George is right but it also depends on each person’s situation. Why is it a bad thing to be conservative when it comes to withdrawing from retirement?
Well said
Because it steals your hope! -Dave
It all depends on your specific situation. If you have kids that you want to inherite and it's not really costing you your own retirement goals hay take the lower 3% percentage. If you don't care that you might run out of money if you live to be in your 90s and there is really no one to inherite then go with the higher percent withdrawal rate of 5%.
Poor George can't argue with Dave though. I heard he just had a kid. I wonder if sometimes he wants to leave but locked in. I like him better than Ken since Ken seems to agree or just keep quiet.
Exactly
I am on George Kamel's saide with this
Aw that's too bad, Jorge seems like the sweetest guy. This should have been addressed after and he should be willing to learn not just scold grown people.
Wow... if this is his reaction in public, imagine how he talk to people behind doors !! Calling George stupid and referring to him as moron is despicable!!!
With bonds overpriced, gold overpriced, and real estate overpriced, the only place I found wise to put money is the trade market because from my experience it’s paid off more than any other investment I’ve gotten into.
How is it going do you trade yourself and what do you think is the best approach for someone who is just starting out?
Herman Jonas is the brain behind my success. I've gotten into a plethora of assets with $63k spread across stocks (options and futures) for the short term and Roth IRA, index funds, and ETFs, for the long term. Now I sit back, and just reinvest at intervals while I handle my other businesses.
Do not forget that when it comes to the stock market, prices can be erratic, rising and declining quickly, often in relation to companies' policies, which individual investors do not influence.
How can I reach him, please? I've seen good recommendations of his work elsewhere. I need help with investing in stocks. I'm ready to pay for his services.
I appreciate the feedback. I reached out to him via the mail you provided and we talked at length. I found him to be verified. I’m glad that I signed up and I've begun my journey with him. Thanks again.
No mutual fund or index does 12% a year.
It has gone negative many of times.
My kids' 529s did 12% this past year
Is there anyone out there who started eating rice and beans but then after hearing they need $2M gave up and maxed out a HELOC?
The difference between 8 percent and 4 percent is only 6 years. If Dave Ramsey isn’t withdrawing from his retirement account he absolutely no data