I am of the opinion that Nadu is fine is that effect doesn't spread to all creatures but instead is "When a creature you control becomes targeted... do this twice per turn." The concept is fine, the payoff and numbers aren't.
@@Greg501- "...by a spell" and it would have been perfectly fine. They intentionally opened the door to activated abilities (of which we have a few zero cost ones in magic)
I find it funny that all of the cards discussed, save Rhystic Study, were either implicitly or very explicitly designed with Commander/ EDH in mind and, like Nadu, it shows that WotC design is overworked or undertalented or incentivized to design Easy Mode, OP garbage that makes the format worse. And yes, there are a lot of fun designs that have added to EDH in a positive way *but* the cards you see in game after game, pod after pod, are the design missteps that, additionally, the RC is overly hesitant to do anything about. On the RC note, the only card they have EVER moved on in a timely fashion on was Hullbreacher. Golos and Paradox Engine, as examples, were allowed to ruin millions of games over the course of years because (god rest and all) Sheldon and the RC were/ are too hesitant to actually manage the format they're in charge of.
Well shit I didn't know that until now. I hate this card more than Rhystic Study now. Now that I look at the artwork closer, you can clearly see the difference in the art between the two characters. Two totally different styles. It looks really bad and sloppy.
Ivy with mutate is almost unplayable in paper, keeping track of which token is which creature, with which attributes, if built optimally. Nadu just compounds it.
@@gn0s1sI have an Ivy deck, and in my experience it's unplayable in paper no matter how you build it. Mutate, auras, spellslinger, can't keep track of any.
I don't like 5-Color commanders that don't cost WUBRG to cast. If they're going to to make 5-Color commanders, make them cost at least 4 of the colors.
It's still the same crap, not like Seth ever casts his commander... Having access to all 5 colors just to play "the best of each color" sucks in a casual environment
@@carso360rocker8 Yeah that's supposed to be the point, the more colors you're playing the more power but less consistency. In 2024 though 5 color decks dont have a drawback
Crim: "I don't mind Rhystic Study. I like playing it." Never change. Real talk though, this card is like. Unambiguously the strongest card in any given deck. It is part of the reason decks like Blue farm are so dominant in cEDH. At the very least, we have had our brains collectively poisoned to think that it's a casual card. Serial killer card.
I mean I hate rhystic study and smothering with a passion and think they should be banned but still will play them cause if I don't I am just nerfing myself
Trouble in pairs a more egregious card than rhystic because rhystic studies wasn't designed at a point where commander was a consideration, while trouble in pairs was explicitly designed for commander.
Rhystic study honestly isn’t even that good, it’s a basic skill check. If it reads anything more than all spells cost 1 more to cast then you’re playing with not very good players
@zacharyroach7947 So to you, it says "do at most one of these essential actions to further your gameplan on each turn", yes? Cards that force such effects sometimes cost _far_ more. If you deliberately go as slow as TiP wants you to go, you're close to giving up.
@@zacharyroach7947the problem is the attack clause as well. In a deck with a big butt commander you gotta attack with multiple creatures to make headway, which will in turn draw them cards. So the ways to play around it are so limiting you basically gotta ignore them
Tomer is completely spot on. Switching Yuriko to Satoru the Infiltrator and removing the Draco stuff was one of the best deck building decisions I’ve ever made. Way more fun and I actually get to cast and go wide with Ninjas.
@@Marocax Situationally, yes. My point wasn't that there are better cards, but that WotC, with Commander in mind, still makes cards that are of the same style play. Cards that show they probably wouldn't hesitate to create Rhystic Study now, if it hadn't been printed then. The issue of Rhystic Study isn't it's power level. It's good, but not anywhere near broken. The problem with Rhystic Study, and the other cards I mentioned, is that they are annoying to play with. The constant "did you pay the 1?" moments are the problem. Like they said in the show, if Rhystic Study just said your opponents' spells cost 1 more or even draw a card on each player's upkeep, it would be much more tolerable.
@@jaredwonnacott9732this is exactly why I never play rhystic study. It’s more annoying for me to ask than when I sit across from it But I do pay smothering tithe because I have to ask less often
Fierce Guardianship is a complicated one. I think the Crim strategy kind of makes sense. I play my janky 7 mana commander, and FG protects it. The issue is that that isn't what the card does most of the time. It is instead a play pattern of "I play my egregiously broken commander and have free counters to ensure I win next turn" or a play pattern of "I am in a commanding position on board, and can now ensure I win next turn by protecting myself with 0-mana interaction". The card exacerbates power imbalances at tables, and it allows players to play all-in for free. In answer to Seth, I would prefer not to see it at Casual tables. It is not as problematic as Mana Crypt (or honestly, Sol Ring) in Casual play, but I don't like it. It has less to do with the card itself, and more to do with how it is played and why someone has it in their "casual" deck.
yeah like I would enjoy if there was a spell that said "costs x less for the greatest mana value among commanders you control" for those big commanders, as the lower mana value commanders would get less use out of it. thats why I like the flashback spells that do this, as you can play them in the giant cmc commanders and get some refunds for their gigantic costs. I personally like to apply downsides for upsides for cards, like the flare cycle: super cool cycle, great effects, can even cast them for free, but the cost is a real card you probably had to pay mana for. in the case of the ikoria commander cycle, in no way is playing your rograkh commander an actual cost.
@@alexanderficken9354 I haven't heard it mentioned by many people, but in the B&R announcement the other day, they talked about why they banned Sorin and not Vein Ripper. In that discussion, they said "If you have to pay the mana cost of a spell, it is usually safe". That's the exact issue. "Cast for free" is a huge problem from a game balance perspective. "Cast with different cost" is only broken when the cost is not balanced well. The Flares require you to pay a real cost, and can be played around as a result. The Ikoria cycle is just free.
If he wants that, it should be something like "If target spell targets a permanent you control, counter that spell. You may phase out target creature you control." That's a much more acceptable free spell that protects your commander. Protects commander from wraths or targeted removal, but doesn't stop wraths from working in general or counter combos.
If you want to protect your overcosted commander, you can play "Not of this World" instead. I use that card in my Nicol Bolas deck (the original). That arguments looks more like a weak excuse than a real motive. There are other options more fair and nice than FG.
That expectation can work in established playgroups. Not, however, between strangers who just bring a Deck they want to play. The goal of the RC should be to facilitate a play experience between _strangers,_ not between people that already can talk through any issues they have. The RC is totally missing its task imo, so I concur - there is next to no reason for it existing anymore.
Agreed. I honestly have gotten to the point where it feels like playing 'casual' commander with randos at an LGS is impossible. The community is rancid with chuds and creeps already and trying to negotiate ad hoc rules is a Sisiphian taks. As a result, I haven't done anything but high power or cedh in years.
I love free spells and hate fierce guardianship. Other free spells have a direct and an indirect cost. The direct one is, like Tomer said, the fact that you bypass the mana cost by having to get rid of another card in your hand. It’s trading 2 of your cards to stop 1 of your opponent’s cards. The indirect cost is deck building restriction. Bad deck builders will add Force of Will to a deck that runs 20-35% blue cards and then notice they either never have a blue card to pitch or that they don’t really want to pitch their precious few blue cards for a counter. In a format where having access to more colors is always good, limiting your deck to have a high percentage of cards of a specific color so your free spells work consistently is a real restriction. Fierce Guardianship gives 0 fucks about both of these costs. It is not a 2 for 1, the color density of that spell on your deck does not matter and the card that enables you to play it for free is always at your disposal. Horrible design.
@@augustobs24 EXACTLY! I used to play CounterTop in Legacy. I have my play set of original printing Force of Wills, etc. Fierce Guardianship, Deflecting Swat, et. al., and Jeweled Lotus: worst design decisions of all time. I don’t even like the Lieutenant cycle. * For Commander, I love finding and using unsung gems.
I agree largely. It's just too good for what it does. It doesn't ask the interesting questions that Force of Will does, with costing 2-cards and deck-building constraints. I do think it can be fun and powerful to have cards that have discounts when your commander is out, but the discount could have made it cost 1 mana instead of zero, or be a little more situational. As it is, it is too strong without enough drawbacks or interesting questions it poses. It looks exciting for its power level, but then you realize it isn't as interesting in the end.
@@rossmcbeath4997 It's a card design that has pure reward (commander protection/auto-include counterspell in blue decks) for literal zero risk. R&D should have learned not to print cards like these since the Moxen in Alpha. It's ridiculous. Sure, it caters to more high-power, competitive groups. At the end of the day, Commander is the only format where you can have a 2-card combo where one of your cards is your commander, or Thoracle+Consultation, or Underworld breach lines, etc... In that environment you definitely need spells like these to keep up with the other fast cards and cheap wincons. For casual play it is a travesty.
And cards like force of will are really bad if you dont cast them for free, but a 3 mana negate is still an ok card, and thats something they do with a lot of the free cards now that they are still good if you hard cast them
I miss the tuck rule too, BUT I keep my commander in a separate sleeve style and I don't miss having to remember the extra sleeve for the commander that gets shuffled into the library. I'd take having to be sure to bring an extra sleeve to get the tuck rule back though.
The content creator mana base is a real thing. Last week i was playing my zombie deck and couldn't cast Razorlash Transmogrant from my yard 10 tirns in because noone had more than 2 non basics besides me.
I thought about Open the Way in Lucea Kane but I couldn’t imagine having Lucea ready to go and spending the turn on setup. Like, especially if I had unbound flourishing I think I wanna make two double sized hydras, not get ready to make them even bigger later. All the ramp in my Lucea deck is at 2 now, I wanna play Lucea on 3 and be playing creatures or game ending sorceries with her from 4 on if I can.
@@Wojtek36762 Fair. I still enjoy it, since Open the Way can boost the value of X for the rest of the game, dodging most removal. Even if Lucea gets removed, I have enough mana to get a ton of value from the rest of the deck.
@@peewee0224originally it was supposed to give all your creature spells flash, but then they didn't think the commander community would like it. This resulted in a skullclamp situation, where the card was changed last minute with no time for testing.😅
@@Shimatzu95 wait what?????? Flash that’s it??? lol they’ve literally printed two creatures that give your spells flash why is that bad? How tf did flash turn into that mess? lol 😂
@@peewee0224 There's more to it, like opponents being the only ones that trigger nadu? So like Flash All creatures have Flash Whenever an opponent targets your creatures, do the Nadu thing.
I see it a lot. Note you don't have to cast for full value. There is no shame casting this for 4 and getting 2 lands (which is the normal rate anyway).
Most players play mana rocks, miss their land drops the rest of the game, get wrathed and do nothing. I cast open the way all the time and very often win when I do.
@@Mecal00 how many games do you actually see that one player gets eliminated and it continues. Most the games I have played it's normally everyone is killed all at once or 2 people are killed then in the next turn the last person is killed
Im starting to remove most ramp from all of my decks and replace with rituals and burst card draw, its so much better because you have 0 board to wipe. Legit increased win rate noticably. People target the ramping players not the guy who is just cantriping and hitting land drops
Fierce Guardianship should have countered only an instant or sorcery. Then it's much more focused only protecting your commander from removal or board wipes, but it also means that your opponent can play around it and remove your commander with banishing light or portal to phyrexia effects.
It would literally be the exact same power. So I absolutely agree but sadly I don’t think it would change much. I have almost never fierced a non instant spell
“Counter target spell or ability that targets your commander.” would’ve been fine, with additional text to say noncreature spell if you choose to pay the mana. You shouldn’t get a free wipe cancel just because you want one.
I applaud Tomer ... I don't run Sol Ring in any of my decks either. I find it breaks the game more than helps. My play group even has made a soft rule that if Sol Ring is in your starting hand you must mulligan.
2 หลายเดือนก่อน +3
I only play sol ring in my artifact decks and I'm considering removing it even from those. I completely agree that fast mana, including sol ring, is not something that makes commander a better format.
Playing a game of Commander, one player casts Rhystic study. I announce, "let's pay the 1 & it'll negate the study effect." 1 player agrees & the other just plays right into it allowing the study player to draw 3 cards on his turn. I attack the guy who didn't pay the one, he asks "Why?" I say "Because you didn't pay the one."
Trouble in Pairs, Open the Way, Rhystic Study - change your threat assessment. Target the player who plays these. Punish land ramp, punish card draw, punish greed. No need to change your deck 100%. Just swing more towards that player. I've seen and been in so many games where Rhystic Study and Smothering Tithe player just getting away with it. People really need to update their threat evaluation. They end up winning b/c of the advantage the cards provide. Personal peet peeve - don't Mana Drain just to gain mana against someone who's not a threat. You're letting the threat go free. If you wouldn't Counterspell it, don't Mana Drain it.
This. Same with group hug players - punch them! They're only giving you things because they think they can get away with it later by wrathing repeatedly or comboing. Don't let them fool you - they're the threat by default.
I'm in favor of some these cards seeing play, but if you drop a Rhystic Study on turn 2-3, that's a target on your back. Ramp more than 1-2 times too early or outside of a landfall shell? Target. I also agree with being the change.
I also understand that Tomer wants his card draw to come at a cost, but what if you're down on life, the board was wiped, and you need cards? MTG kind of needs cards like this so that people can stabilize when they don't have the means to trigger their conditional card draw
The cards are fine. They're generically strong and that's good. The game needs such cards. The problem is when players don't register them as a problem when on the board and with w/e other available context. If a go-wide token deck drops a Purphoros, God of the Forge (or similar cards), alarm bells should be ringing. These cards should be treated similarly. And, punch face more. It's fun.
i've said this before on one of your videos but my experience with open the way is : reveal 20 non-land cards, get my 4 basics or duals into play sure, but then proceed to draw only lands for the rest of the game. because all my cards i wanted to draw are bottom decked
In defense of my homie Kenrith, he's the perfect commander for my politics deck since you can target your opponents and their things with his abilities
Could also see him as an on theme way to do 5c knights. That being said, despite some interesting decks, I do dislike the general design of Kenrith and similar unfocused 5c cards.
I don’t really think you can say Rhystic Study shouldn’t have been printed, considering Commander wasn’t a big thing at the time. WotC wasn’t printing cards with Commander in mind.
My biggest takeaway from this video is that powerful effects are fine if they are costed appropriately. Almost every card mentioned is a problem because they are too cheap for how strong they are. Fierce Guardianship is busted because it’s free most of the time. Yuriko is never more than 2 mana no matter what. Teferi’s Protection is too strong at only 3 mana. Nadu is strong at base but truly broken because Shuko costs 0 to activate. My own add to this list would be Dockside Extortionist. Would be fine at 4+ mana. I would fix FG to say “This spell costs U(or 1) less to cast for each time you’ve cast your commander from the CZ this game.” It could eventually be free if you’ve cast your commander three times. That seems cool. Perch Protection is a good example of a balanced TProt. 6 mana and give your opponent an extra turn to get TProt plus 4 birds. Maybe a bit too nerfed but still more fair than only 3 mana. Making Yuriko abide by command tax would absolutely fix that card as well. Nadu is just Nadu lol. I hope it gets banned.
You can build around trouble in pairs - just have repeatable effects that force opponents to draw or attack you every turn (temple bell + untappers, lure effects etc.) Kenrith also has lots of build-around strategies other than the ones mentioned (Jegantha/zirda companion, activated ability themes etc.)
Well, Goad doesn't help you because Trouble In Pairs says you have to be attacked, not just an opponent attacks with two or more creatures. Goading prevents them from attacking you if there are other players at the table.
You can - the issue is that you don't need to. Like with the expend mechanic in blb, that design rewards you for playing magic in itself. It isn't creative in the least, and very uninteresting. The issue is that it is undeniably more powerful than most synergistic options, making it pretty uninteresting in deckbuilding.
@@lVideoWatcherl "Uninteresting" is subjective. I personally wouldn't try to police the fun at the table by telling people what is and isn't fun. Some people like to build janky decks with obscure cards and difficult win conditions (myself included) whereas others like to play competitively or perhaps are new to the game and would like to fast-track the deck-building process.
To touch on Yuriko and her ruling. They have changed their mind on rules before. Xantcha used to return to the command zone upon a players death. Now she goes to the person who is running her as a commanders control. It makes her worse for Cedh but "better" for causal tables.
Trouble in pairs and other modern draw engines are making Commander not really feel like a Singleton format to me. The number of cards that the average debt can draw in a game has gone up so much that one can basically guarantee they'll do the thing. Just like how tutors can ruin the feel of the game for some people, drawing all the cards and always having an answer or combo piece has changed the feel of the format to me Now some people love this and I can see why. It probably is just objectively better, I think I just preferred the sense of mystery that playing 100 cards Singleton had before.
I enjoy using it my grouping deck since it helps turn my hug into my advantage. I also use it alongside Smothering Tithe and Smugglers Share for the same reason.
@@zacharyroach7947 I don't disagree that there has always been card draw. And I don't protest to R/W getting access to what blue and green has always had for a long time. In fact, I would pose the Simic dominance has not just been the ramp but also the card draw. My complaint is specifically at the power creep and efficiency of modern card draw across the board. It's often even better than a tutor because drawing 20 more cards than your opponents usually means you have both that board wipe AND that combo piece
@@AgonalRhythm You mention the power creep of card draw but I think the most powerful card spells are still fairly old cards (The One Ring being the biggest exception to that)
@@zacharyroach7947 The *most powerful* draw spells may be old, but the newer stuff is inching closer and closer, making the overall amount of draw in a deck much higher. There was a time when Rumor Gatherer was nearly an auto-include in white because its access to draw was so bad. 5 years ago, your options for red cantrips was thrill of possibility, pirate's pillage, and tormenting voice. Then we got unexpected windfall, seize the spoils, and electric revelation. Then we got big score and bitter reunion. Then we got witch's mark. This year alone we've gotten demand answers, glimpse the impossible, highway robbery, *and* wheel of potential. And that doesn't even include the card selection stapled to burn spells that didn't even exist before, like valakut awakening, fire prophecy, and volcanic spite. Power creep isn't just the raw power of each individual card. It's also the total number of those effects that can go in a deck. It's now very nearly possible to build a red deck with no permanent-based sources of card draw. I just put together an Imodane deck where most of my draw is coming from spells instead of permanents because there are just so many options. A deck with just thrill of possibility, pirate's pillage, and tormenting voice isn't going to see many extra cards. A deck with all 13 of the spells I mentioned here is much much better and looking for cards.
The argument for Nadu not being banned is the reason if should be banned. Imagine a newer player coming in with their nadu deck that they spent 50 quid on because they opened a pack of modern horizons 3 and thought it was cool, only to be told "we hate your deck, everyone knows Nadu is a horrible commander because X" as one of their early experiences to Commander and Magic as a whole. The community knows. New players do not
Tomer is 100% correct on Open the Way. Most play groups don’t spend that much on mana bases, Open the Way is a good ramp card, but it’s only a problem in the Clash format where you guys play so many non-basics
there’s an argument to be made that a high number of non-basics is optimal for a lot of deck compositions, and that most people aren’t doing that largely on budget considerations. I don’t think “this card is okay because most people don’t have enough spending money to abuse it properly” holds water.
@@domotoro3552I disagree. Of all the times I’ve faced the card, it never blew the game up. Content creator mana bases are absurd compared to real game pods in my experience.
I recently lost because one opponent casted a Wrath and another player with a full board of Tokens just casted Teferis Protection and it felt so freakin bad and also: Lackluster. Really, really lackluster.
@@laytonjr6601 again no. The wrath sat beside the player casting tef pr. and it went to another player plus me until we got back to him. So we couldn't do anything to him for basically a whole turn cycle and then it was his turn and he took out two players
The worst is when they TP to an opponent's wrath, then you have to sit there like an asshole because you can't wrath on your turn to finish the job. The phase out is fine, but the effect should end on the next player's turn.
Open the Way is high power in a high power deck, and lower power in a lower power deck. It scales VERY well to exactly how you want to build your deck.
Trouble in Pairs is probably pushed a bit far, since it'd be reasonable at the same cost without the 2nd card per turn. Like if it was just mangara but an enchantment. Mangara the Diplomat should be in every one of Seth's decks then, if he's telling the truth.
Kenrith points you in many different possible directions! Some of which are pretty fun and unique. 3/5 of his abilities affect creatures specifically, and all 5 are activated abilities. So you can stuff with Agatha, Zirda, bio familiar plus a bunch of activated ability creatures. I run Scarab God in 99 as a backup reanimator. And coincidentally have the World Tree in the list just to fix my mana. While brewing I realized that some of the Gods have activated abilities that work great with the training grounds package. So suddenly I had a Gods subtheme with the likes of Purphoros, Thassa, Locust God, etc. Politics is another great option. All 5 of Kennys abilities can help your opponents. My Kenrith deck merges these themes together.
Being able to put the commander into the command zone when ANY state based action occurs is CRAZY. There should be a more slim window to perform that action.
17:40 I'm tempted to build the ORIGINAL design of Nadu they talked about, just to show how safe and enjoyable it ACTUALLY would have been. For the uninformed, original Nadu gave all of your permanents flash and the Oracle draw only triggered when opponents targeted your stuff.
It is so crazy that they thought a limited Vedalken Orrery on legs would be too powerful for commander. It's actually kind of majestic to be that off-base and redesign the card without testing the new iteration out of that left-field fear.
Tell me you don’t play cEDH without telling me you play cEDH. The OG nadu would’ve been broken in cEDH. Dockside, breach, isochron scepter, Kiki jiki, thassa’s Oracle, etc
surprised the eminence commanders didn't come in, as much as I love the Ur-Dragon, Eminence is basically an emblem you start with and Sorin in particular is so strong
What about taxing Yuriko by yourself as self-imposed rule? Just float extra mana into the air and pretend that you paid the tax. It's not even breaking the rules, technically. (And yes, it's kinda copium, but still.)
you could “self-errata” ANY broken/mis-designed card you want to do that to, should your playgroup be okay with it. You could just as easily say “ok guys, in my deck rhystic only triggers once per turn” or something. doesn’t at all change the problems inherent to the card’s design because it’s only an errata for you, not for everyone.
An odd paradox I’ve seen often, is while the community does encourage proxy a large number of players I encounter at multiple game stores refuse to proxy a card they don’t own. 🤷♀️
In my experience 'the community' here is a small subset of the actual community that's active in online spheres. The broader community is a lot more of what you see at an lgs or whatever and their opinions are not the same.
In my head this is how Trouble in Pairs was made: Leader: "Ok guys we need gas to sell a precon." Creator: "Ok, what about a white Rhystic study" Leader: "Ooooo I smell Mula! Go!" Creator: "Ok so the card is called "Trouble in Pairs" , it's 2 white and 2 colorless..... Leader: "Whoa whoa whoa.... 4 cmc!? What are you doing to me!?" You said white Rhystic Study." Creator: "Let me cook." Assistant: *whispers* "Let him cook." Creator: "Like I was saying....Trouble in Pairs is a 2 white 2 colorless enchantment who's first line of text will read If an opponent would begin an extra turn, that player skips that turn instead. Creator: "Are you trying to gaslight me?" Assistant: "Let him cook!" Creator: " ....Followed by.....Whenever an opponent attacks you with two or more creatures, draws their second card each turn, or casts their second spell each turn, you draw a card. Leader: "Oooooh Snap that's Mula!!!!" Creator: "I wasn't finished...." Leader: "You're reaching Yu-Gi-Oh level word count at this point." Assistant: *whispers* "This is the best part." Creator: "We steal the art." *Drops mic* Leader: *whispers* "We're gonna need a bigger boat."
Thank you Tomer for always being there to remind the Goldfish crew that they are some of the most greedy mana base players out there. Seth’s argument of “well what about proxies” just shows how out of touch they are with it. Richard is slamming Field of the Dead in every deck. Phil goes into each week with all of the fetches and surviels in every color he can squeeze into each deck. Seth is just copying Richard and Phil. Crim misses his land drops so I don’t think it matters if his mana base is greedy but it’s wild how every week they just constantly drop hundreds of dollars to thousands of dollars of lands across the battlefield collectively and then sit around and go “Are people really playing that many basics?” BRUH! Yes! We can’t afford to that many copies of that many expensive lands and be able to jam them into any deck we want. Using the argument of “well players can proxy” instead of just accepting that you’re playing decks well outside of most people’s budget is wild. It’s not like the deck lists are secret so we could see deck prices whenever if we wanted, but it’s uncommon for them to openly talk about how expensive their cards and decks really are. My opinions here but I think proxies being allowed is fine. I personally don’t really care if they are played but I also won’t personally buy any because I don’t think it’s worth it. If I truly wanted a valuable card I’d want the real deal so I could sell it later if needed. There’s also the social stigma of buying powerful proxies. “You want to win so bad you’re proxying” “off brand magic” it’s the same as anything else that has a real product and a fake one.
I will say you and i I may need many lands to fill out our decks but for commander clash they only need one of each so it becomes for reasonable since they dont need the same deck next week. Like i could probably build one manabase like theirs from my whole collecition of 10 years.
I'd be happy if none of these cards existed. Open The Way and Rhystic Study aren't really on my radar as problem cards, but I wouldn't be upset to see them gone if it meant all the others mentioned in the video go with them. I'd get rid of Dockside Extortionist, the whole free spell cycle from Ikoria (would honestly be fine getting rid of pretty much every spell that can completely circumvent the use of mana to be cast), Smothering Tithe, Necropotence, Field of the Dead, and fast mana.
I think I sort of agree on the tuck rule, kind of Drannith Magistrate. On one hand, having your Commander permanently removed from availability feels really bad when you are playing a janky Kithkin tribal deck. However, it feels like a necessary weapon against Korvold, Jodah, and the like. When Commanders increase in power, the weapons against need to get better too.
Back in time, what my colleagues and I did was to run certain amount of tutors that specifically worked with the commander, to get it back asap, like Fleshwrither for 4 CMC commanders, or transmute cards. Good old times (snif-snif).
I disagree with the kenrith argument. Everytime you see like random legendary sliver or urtet you pretty much know the decklist as they are all the same. The narrow 5c commanders funnel you into the same deck. While with kenrith you can take it to any direction. Sure you can be lame and just play all the good cards but you always could do that anyway with any commander. I had a golos that tutors sorrows path but rc banned it.
The problem is with five color commanders in general. Make them too open-ended, and they just become a catch-all that dilutes diversity. Make them focus too much on a niche, and they just become defacto commanders for their given niche with little reason to have commander-focused legends in any other color that focus on that same niche.
59:00 Crim's kinda cooking here. The tuck rule was brutal back in the day, but it was like the only reprieve from commanders like Derevi. Nowadays there are so many more commanders that warp games and it could be nice to have a break from that. This also means that my own commander is subject to being tucked, but I can live with that.
@@brkn613 that was never what they said. The feedback they got was that a 3 mana vedalken orrery in the command zone generally slowed the game down/made it less fun. Nadu was NOT changed for power level.
12:00 a sort of necessary counter for power creep and/or not every deck will have 50, 30 or heck even 20 cards that have solid synergy in a commander deck
Preach it Crim! Bring back the tuck rule! Edit: Funny story about the tuck rule, back in the day my friend Sam would always tuck my commander with bant charm, hinder, condemn, etc. and after I shuffled I'd always give my deck to her to cut it and with like 99% success ratio she would nearly always cut my commander to the top of my deck 🤣
Non-basic land ramp, is basically a tutor, and some of us arn't playing tutors. Open the way is kind of random, really strong. But a card that lets you get your Maze of Ith, or combo land, (no one plays field of the dead right? too strong), is just a tutor.
I ahve never agreed with Tomer on anything but man im with him on the Fierce guardianship hate train. I really feel free counterspells as a whole are a MASSIVE design mistake, because i cant tell you how many times i need to deal witht he blue player and I'll do the right thiung, I wait for them to be tapped out and then i STILL get blownout out by the MULTIPLE free spells they have in their hand that can be easily drawn/tutored/flashed back. like a blue player can literally decide to not let anyone interact with them and we are always trying to tell players to interact more.
Pact of Negation and the free when you exile two from Hand are somewhat okay. At least there is an actual cost, though I agree that free spells should not exist without you building towards it, basically announcing it to the table.
I think most of the free counterspells are fine because they actually have a cost. The cost for running guardianship is that 2% of the time you'll have to pay 3 for it because your commander is dead. A 3-mana counterspell is always better than no counterspell.
As someone with a Kenrith deck, he is the commander for thematic reasons only. Being the King Arthur of Magic informed him being the commander of my Arthurian Knights themed deck, but I agree that him being the go-to generic 5c good stuff commander is eyerolling.
The trade off though (not that is much of a trade off, the card is gas) is that you don't get to choose what you want. Like Hour of Promise is powerful not because it's two nonbasics for 5 mana, it's whatever lands you want/need for 5 (and 1 G so super easy to splash)
@@EvilShade82 I think it all depends on how much you ramped earlier/how patient you want to be. I have found that I generally just let it rip for X=3 or X=2 (usually because I missed my land drop and just need to) moreso than X=4.
I appreciate the tuck rule vs oubliette-like abilities, but I think a big difference between the two is color parity. Tuck cards go massively in favor of blue, and tutors obviously favor black. Whereas every color but red has an oubliette-like card, and there are more answers to retrieve your commander in various colors depending on the card used against your commander.
Fierce Guardianship - If you control a commander with mana value of 6 or greater, you may cast this spell without paying its mana cost. or let me 1Up this one: Fierce Guardianship - If you control a commander of uncommon rarity, you may cast this spell without paying its mana cost.
@@brandonjensen586 and it’d be a dead card every early game… making it objectively worse than a base CS So I guess bad deck builders would use it. I’ll concede I’m wrong about “nobody playing it.” I guess I meant nobody who’s a good deck builder would play it.
@@dgreenlonghorn1 how would it be objectively worse than base CS? Its free if i meet its very simple requirement And the “dead card early game” argument is weak. That would apply to any card worth more than 3 mana.
@@xdelbarrioStrongly disagree. Cards that counter those effects by offsetting them is good for the game but cards that shut off a mechanic inherent to the game is bad. Ie. Sheoldred, the Apocalypse, whenever an opponent draws a card, they lose 2 life. Powerful, but it does not stop them drawing cards. It just punishes opponents for drawing a lot of cards. Leovold on the other hand, where your opponents cannot draw more than one card a turn, created combos where opponents were effectively locked out of the game and card draw was turned off. Bad (and banned because of it).
@@Dragon_Fyre I think you are right when they are asymmetrical and on a commander, but narset is in the format and not banned and neither is notion thief. the card draw stop is not the only reason leovold is banned I do prefer and like the effect more when its symmetrical like rampaging ferocidon or spirit of the labyrinth, makes it more balanced
For Open the Way, it’s not busted in regards to ramp (there are commons that get you two basic lands for 4 CMC so 3 lands for 5 CMC with the option to ramp less for reduced cost is hardly broken in Green). What makes it so powerful, is that it gets you lands not basic lands. Most players do not have the Gaea’s Cradle, Nykthos, Field of the Dead, Three Tree etc. lands where this card shines, which I think is why the inclusion % is so low.
The tuck rule made the game so much better changing it made the format so much for the worse, it forced people to build more resilient decks and punished glass cannon decks more. Please bring it back!
Literally all that happened is people stacked their decks full of tutors to find their commander back. If thats "resilience" then I can do without that
That’s so boring and generic though. Why even specify “if”? Of course your opponent will want to do things… that’s the point of the game. I get that you can just remove it, but I don’t like generically good as a design, and white is getting a ton of it these days.
@@Jlizard27 I like it because that’s the point of white. To be fair, make things equal. My only complaint is that it’s too easy to cast. Should have been 4 white maybe, no generic mana, that way you limit it to only white
Tomer taking out Sol Rings of the Decks, what a mtg soul mate. ❤️ our playgroup decided to do this some time ago, one of the best ban decisions we made.
The problem is the opposite case, where you draw a card or two on _each_ players turn, when they're just doing normal things. If it just let you draw 5+ cards if any player had drawn 5 or more, it wouldn't be a problem.
Honest Question: How is it the case that Commander Clash plays Open The Way so much, and is convinced that it is broken, but nobody else is? I don't see it in other gameplay channels, and nobody talks about it. Are they geniuses, or completely wrong? Is it a meta thing? An Aftermath effect?
Open the way is only as good as your lands are, and the commander clash plays super greedy utility land-heavy mana bases. If you aren’t shoving high-power lands into your deck it’s still good but not busted.
@@Lazydino59 That brings you to the other thing I am still unsure about. Is the Clash mana base actually better? Richard is convinced that the risks are just not there, and I am not sure. Is it optimal to play this way, which means Open The Way is an actually broken card, or are they just in a strange meta where a certain type of risk is safer than usual?
@@ethanglaeser9239 I think a bit of both. Personally I think they go a bit far on colorless utility lands, but there is a “ideal” amount (I think 8-12 but depends ofc). They also try and ramp quite hard (ramp on 2 -> ramp on 4), moreso than I do. I’d say on average open the way is an 8/10 and underrated for sure, but it isn’t godly unless you build especially greedy and ramp heavy. So tldr it scales with your greed and clash is very greedy XD, so depends on your playstyle
I add it to every green deck I own that I need to ramp out with, which is most. Getting bounce lands, talon gates, Urborg, cabal, and such is broken. 5 or 6 mana for 3-4 most likely non basics is busted. I’m a firm believer in the land meta and my decks and winrate have proven it.
Open the way is easy access to your best lands. It ramps them out pretty easily. A person who understand the power of lands knows that a card like this indirectly win the game.
I think the issue with Crim's argument for Trouble in Pairs is that it doesn't reward you for opponents going off. It rewards you for your opponents doing the bare minimum.
I ve played a lot vintage in the early days and land destruction is in the game for a reason. And the powercreep allowes to use more land destruction. Its the answer to a lot of that cards you listed 😂
Proxying is fine at my LGS table, a couple of my friends have fully proxied decks. Zero out of a dozen or so regular players are proxying a Content Creator Manager BaseTM because that isn’t our table norm. One guy kinda did it with Necrobloom and it causes Issues (not all our decks are built to deal with a dredgeable Glacial Chasm showing up every game). I’m running 6-14 basics per deck, a couple MDFCs, a little land removal and a couple other utility lands. Maybe one real fetch in most decks, three if I care about landfall or lands in the yard. I don’t buy lands over like $7 for a deck if I can possibly help it.
Open the way is fine because you don’t get to choose which lands you get, I definitely agree that it is a severely underplayed card because having a scaleable ramp spell is super powerful
Wotc: "we changed Nadu for Commander"
Commander players: "thanks a lot, Nadu makes commander games miserable"
I am of the opinion that Nadu is fine is that effect doesn't spread to all creatures but instead is "When a creature you control becomes targeted... do this twice per turn." The concept is fine, the payoff and numbers aren't.
Yeah, truly, if the og printing was an issue also, why not just skip printing that dumb of a card anyways?
@@Greg501- "...by a spell" and it would have been perfectly fine. They intentionally opened the door to activated abilities (of which we have a few zero cost ones in magic)
Dropping the "Opponent controls" line was the bolt in the bird
I find it funny that all of the cards discussed, save Rhystic Study, were either implicitly or very explicitly designed with Commander/ EDH in mind and, like Nadu, it shows that WotC design is overworked or undertalented or incentivized to design Easy Mode, OP garbage that makes the format worse.
And yes, there are a lot of fun designs that have added to EDH in a positive way *but* the cards you see in game after game, pod after pod, are the design missteps that, additionally, the RC is overly hesitant to do anything about.
On the RC note, the only card they have EVER moved on in a timely fashion on was Hullbreacher. Golos and Paradox Engine, as examples, were allowed to ruin millions of games over the course of years because (god rest and all) Sheldon and the RC were/ are too hesitant to actually manage the format they're in charge of.
"We don't believe in bans" is a funny thing to say one month later.
That statement aged perfectly for him
Trouble in pairs also has an amalgamation of stolen artwork, another reason to hate it.
Well shit I didn't know that until now. I hate this card more than Rhystic Study now.
Now that I look at the artwork closer, you can clearly see the difference in the art between the two characters. Two totally different styles. It looks really bad and sloppy.
@@as95ms98I think there was 4 or 5 artworks that it is stolen from and collaged together.
😂 imagine being so hurt by a card
@@sirKonradical imagine not respecting artists
@@JamesCooley-q8b I'm not talking about the art you virgin
My wife has an Ivy, Gleeful Spellthief deck and I can confirm, Nadu is still annoying as heck in the 99
Is she a supervillain, by chance? Do y'all live in a volcano that is somehow shaped like a skull? 🤣
Ivy with mutate is almost unplayable in paper, keeping track of which token is which creature, with which attributes, if built optimally. Nadu just compounds it.
Tbf, she is playing Ivy... Nadu might be more powerful than her, but I doubt she needs Nadu to be busted....
@@gn0s1sI have an Ivy deck, and in my experience it's unplayable in paper no matter how you build it. Mutate, auras, spellslinger, can't keep track of any.
I don't like 5-Color commanders that don't cost WUBRG to cast. If they're going to to make 5-Color commanders, make them cost at least 4 of the colors.
💯
Let there be downsides for your commander in exchange for getting access to so many colors
It's still the same crap, not like Seth ever casts his commander... Having access to all 5 colors just to play "the best of each color" sucks in a casual environment
@@nandopaiva4848Which is why we need non basic land hate to be accepted so that there's actual counter play against the 5c good stuff decks
You say that until you play them. "Oh I'm mannnaa screwedddd!" Get real. It's better this way
@@carso360rocker8 Yeah that's supposed to be the point, the more colors you're playing the more power but less consistency. In 2024 though 5 color decks dont have a drawback
Crim: "I don't mind Rhystic Study. I like playing it."
Never change.
Real talk though, this card is like. Unambiguously the strongest card in any given deck. It is part of the reason decks like Blue farm are so dominant in cEDH. At the very least, we have had our brains collectively poisoned to think that it's a casual card. Serial killer card.
"These cards should never have been made!"
"But, anyways, I'm still going to put them in every single deck."
Field of the Dead syndrome.
Well, yeah, why play suboptimally?
@@thesamuraiman cause then you aren't a hypocrite.
@@thesamuraimanbe the change you wish to see in the world
I dont play any of these cards BECAUSE i dont want to see them in a game
@@edhdeckbuildingkinda the point of a banlist tho, not really the players job to self regulate if it's showing itself as a problem on a larger scale.
I mean I hate rhystic study and smothering with a passion and think they should be banned but still will play them cause if I don't I am just nerfing myself
As someone who's only been playing for a month, thank you so much for putting pictures of the cards when you talk about them. I'd be so lost otherwise
Trouble in pairs a more egregious card than rhystic because rhystic studies wasn't designed at a point where commander was a consideration, while trouble in pairs was explicitly designed for commander.
Rhystic study honestly isn’t even that good, it’s a basic skill check. If it reads anything more than all spells cost 1 more to cast then you’re playing with not very good players
Eh I don't know, Tomer says there is no way to play around Trouble in Pairs but the way to play around it is to slow your roll a bit.
@zacharyroach7947 So to you, it says "do at most one of these essential actions to further your gameplan on each turn", yes? Cards that force such effects sometimes cost _far_ more. If you deliberately go as slow as TiP wants you to go, you're close to giving up.
@@zacharyroach7947the problem is the attack clause as well. In a deck with a big butt commander you gotta attack with multiple creatures to make headway, which will in turn draw them cards. So the ways to play around it are so limiting you basically gotta ignore them
@@Lazydino59 oh get out of here, even if it just reads everything your opponents cast costs one more to cast it'd be a terrific card.
The worst part about trouble in pairs, is both of the characters featured on the card were plagiarized. The art is basically a one-to-one
Whenever your opponent plagiarizes two pieces of art in one turn, draw a card 💀
@@Wojtek36762 LMAO literally
Tomer is completely spot on. Switching Yuriko to Satoru the Infiltrator and removing the Draco stuff was one of the best deck building decisions I’ve ever made. Way more fun and I actually get to cast and go wide with Ninjas.
I think something that is often ignored about Kenrith is that he targets other players. He can be the 5 color crime king.
Seth: WotC wouldn't make Rhystic Study now.
WotC: Here have a Smothering Tithe and an Esper Sentinel and a Trouble in Pairs and...
still better than all those cards ...
@@Marocax Situationally, yes. My point wasn't that there are better cards, but that WotC, with Commander in mind, still makes cards that are of the same style play. Cards that show they probably wouldn't hesitate to create Rhystic Study now, if it hadn't been printed then. The issue of Rhystic Study isn't it's power level. It's good, but not anywhere near broken. The problem with Rhystic Study, and the other cards I mentioned, is that they are annoying to play with. The constant "did you pay the 1?" moments are the problem. Like they said in the show, if Rhystic Study just said your opponents' spells cost 1 more or even draw a card on each player's upkeep, it would be much more tolerable.
@@jaredwonnacott9732this is exactly why I never play rhystic study. It’s more annoying for me to ask than when I sit across from it
But I do pay smothering tithe because I have to ask less often
Fierce Guardianship is a complicated one. I think the Crim strategy kind of makes sense. I play my janky 7 mana commander, and FG protects it. The issue is that that isn't what the card does most of the time. It is instead a play pattern of "I play my egregiously broken commander and have free counters to ensure I win next turn" or a play pattern of "I am in a commanding position on board, and can now ensure I win next turn by protecting myself with 0-mana interaction". The card exacerbates power imbalances at tables, and it allows players to play all-in for free.
In answer to Seth, I would prefer not to see it at Casual tables. It is not as problematic as Mana Crypt (or honestly, Sol Ring) in Casual play, but I don't like it. It has less to do with the card itself, and more to do with how it is played and why someone has it in their "casual" deck.
yeah like I would enjoy if there was a spell that said "costs x less for the greatest mana value among commanders you control" for those big commanders, as the lower mana value commanders would get less use out of it. thats why I like the flashback spells that do this, as you can play them in the giant cmc commanders and get some refunds for their gigantic costs.
I personally like to apply downsides for upsides for cards, like the flare cycle: super cool cycle, great effects, can even cast them for free, but the cost is a real card you probably had to pay mana for. in the case of the ikoria commander cycle, in no way is playing your rograkh commander an actual cost.
@@alexanderficken9354 I haven't heard it mentioned by many people, but in the B&R announcement the other day, they talked about why they banned Sorin and not Vein Ripper. In that discussion, they said "If you have to pay the mana cost of a spell, it is usually safe".
That's the exact issue. "Cast for free" is a huge problem from a game balance perspective. "Cast with different cost" is only broken when the cost is not balanced well. The Flares require you to pay a real cost, and can be played around as a result. The Ikoria cycle is just free.
If he wants that, it should be something like "If target spell targets a permanent you control, counter that spell. You may phase out target creature you control." That's a much more acceptable free spell that protects your commander. Protects commander from wraths or targeted removal, but doesn't stop wraths from working in general or counter combos.
If you want to protect your overcosted commander, you can play "Not of this World" instead. I use that card in my Nicol Bolas deck (the original). That arguments looks more like a weak excuse than a real motive. There are other options more fair and nice than FG.
@@RyanEglitisI like this. I was thinking something similar.
It's a mistake on the rules commity's behalf to assume that players will self regulate and "do the right thing".
No reason to have a rules committee with that line of thinking tbh
100% there are so many cards that need to go due to the fact self-regulation is near impossible
That expectation can work in established playgroups. Not, however, between strangers who just bring a Deck they want to play. The goal of the RC should be to facilitate a play experience between _strangers,_ not between people that already can talk through any issues they have. The RC is totally missing its task imo, so I concur - there is next to no reason for it existing anymore.
Agreed. I honestly have gotten to the point where it feels like playing 'casual' commander with randos at an LGS is impossible. The community is rancid with chuds and creeps already and trying to negotiate ad hoc rules is a Sisiphian taks. As a result, I haven't done anything but high power or cedh in years.
@@harmoniousrex If negotiating rules is that much of an issue, you may just be antisocial.
I love free spells and hate fierce guardianship.
Other free spells have a direct and an indirect cost.
The direct one is, like Tomer said, the fact that you bypass the mana cost by having to get rid of another card in your hand. It’s trading 2 of your cards to stop 1 of your opponent’s cards.
The indirect cost is deck building restriction. Bad deck builders will add Force of Will to a deck that runs 20-35% blue cards and then notice they either never have a blue card to pitch or that they don’t really want to pitch their precious few blue cards for a counter. In a format where having access to more colors is always good, limiting your deck to have a high percentage of cards of a specific color so your free spells work consistently is a real restriction.
Fierce Guardianship gives 0 fucks about both of these costs. It is not a 2 for 1, the color density of that spell on your deck does not matter and the card that enables you to play it for free is always at your disposal. Horrible design.
@@augustobs24 EXACTLY! I used to play CounterTop in Legacy. I have my play set of original printing Force of Wills, etc. Fierce Guardianship, Deflecting Swat, et. al., and Jeweled Lotus: worst design decisions of all time. I don’t even like the Lieutenant cycle.
*
For Commander, I love finding and using unsung gems.
I agree largely. It's just too good for what it does. It doesn't ask the interesting questions that Force of Will does, with costing 2-cards and deck-building constraints.
I do think it can be fun and powerful to have cards that have discounts when your commander is out, but the discount could have made it cost 1 mana instead of zero, or be a little more situational. As it is, it is too strong without enough drawbacks or interesting questions it poses. It looks exciting for its power level, but then you realize it isn't as interesting in the end.
@@rossmcbeath4997 It's a card design that has pure reward (commander protection/auto-include counterspell in blue decks) for literal zero risk.
R&D should have learned not to print cards like these since the Moxen in Alpha. It's ridiculous.
Sure, it caters to more high-power, competitive groups. At the end of the day, Commander is the only format where you can have a 2-card combo where one of your cards is your commander, or Thoracle+Consultation, or Underworld breach lines, etc... In that environment you definitely need spells like these to keep up with the other fast cards and cheap wincons. For casual play it is a travesty.
And cards like force of will are really bad if you dont cast them for free, but a 3 mana negate is still an ok card, and thats something they do with a lot of the free cards now that they are still good if you hard cast them
I miss the tuck rule too, BUT I keep my commander in a separate sleeve style and I don't miss having to remember the extra sleeve for the commander that gets shuffled into the library.
I'd take having to be sure to bring an extra sleeve to get the tuck rule back though.
The content creator mana base is a real thing. Last week i was playing my zombie deck and couldn't cast Razorlash Transmogrant from my yard 10 tirns in because noone had more than 2 non basics besides me.
You haven't truly Opened the Way until you cast it with Unbound Flourishing on the battlefield.
I have an Archelos deck just waiting to do exactly, plus the regrowth
Magus Lucea loves Open the Way too
I thought about Open the Way in Lucea Kane but I couldn’t imagine having Lucea ready to go and spending the turn on setup. Like, especially if I had unbound flourishing I think I wanna make two double sized hydras, not get ready to make them even bigger later. All the ramp in my Lucea deck is at 2 now, I wanna play Lucea on 3 and be playing creatures or game ending sorceries with her from 4 on if I can.
@@Wojtek36762 Fair.
I still enjoy it, since Open the Way can boost the value of X for the rest of the game, dodging most removal.
Even if Lucea gets removed, I have enough mana to get a ton of value from the rest of the deck.
Little did Crim know that while recording this we would later learn that Nadu WAS a confirmed mistake
What did wizards say was the mistake?
@@peewee0224originally it was supposed to give all your creature spells flash, but then they didn't think the commander community would like it. This resulted in a skullclamp situation, where the card was changed last minute with no time for testing.😅
@@Shimatzu95 wait what?????? Flash that’s it??? lol they’ve literally printed two creatures that give your spells flash why is that bad? How tf did flash turn into that mess? lol 😂
@@peewee0224 There's more to it, like opponents being the only ones that trigger nadu?
So like
Flash
All creatures have Flash
Whenever an opponent targets your creatures, do the Nadu thing.
@@manuelito1233 well supposedly flash was the problem part (and i couldn t remember how the 2nd ability was worded exactly)
Open the Way is 100% a commander clash meta thing. Most players aren't ramping on turn 5 and 6, but ramping on turns 2 and 3.
I see it a lot. Note you don't have to cast for full value. There is no shame casting this for 4 and getting 2 lands (which is the normal rate anyway).
And Open the Way can't be cast super late in the game because the fewer players the worse it is. So really, I don't mind, it's a mid-game ramp card
Most players play mana rocks, miss their land drops the rest of the game, get wrathed and do nothing. I cast open the way all the time and very often win when I do.
@@Mecal00 how many games do you actually see that one player gets eliminated and it continues. Most the games I have played it's normally everyone is killed all at once or 2 people are killed then in the next turn the last person is killed
Im starting to remove most ramp from all of my decks and replace with rituals and burst card draw, its so much better because you have 0 board to wipe. Legit increased win rate noticably. People target the ramping players not the guy who is just cantriping and hitting land drops
Fierce Guardianship should have countered only an instant or sorcery. Then it's much more focused only protecting your commander from removal or board wipes, but it also means that your opponent can play around it and remove your commander with banishing light or portal to phyrexia effects.
Yeah people aren't running those generally, but I still agree instant or sorcery. Even just instant would be strong
@@seanedgar164 I think people would run them more if they dodged certain popular spells.
It would literally be the exact same power. So I absolutely agree but sadly I don’t think it would change much. I have almost never fierced a non instant spell
“Counter target spell or ability that targets your commander.” would’ve been fine, with additional text to say noncreature spell if you choose to pay the mana.
You shouldn’t get a free wipe cancel just because you want one.
I applaud Tomer ... I don't run Sol Ring in any of my decks either. I find it breaks the game more than helps. My play group even has made a soft rule that if Sol Ring is in your starting hand you must mulligan.
I only play sol ring in my artifact decks and I'm considering removing it even from those. I completely agree that fast mana, including sol ring, is not something that makes commander a better format.
I swapped my sol ring for sol talisman. It's ok to cast early so it will come into play at some point.
Playing a game of Commander, one player casts Rhystic study.
I announce, "let's pay the 1 & it'll negate the study effect."
1 player agrees & the other just plays right into it allowing the study player to draw 3 cards on his turn.
I attack the guy who didn't pay the one, he asks "Why?"
I say "Because you didn't pay the one."
Tomer's right: I should play more Trouble in Pairs.
Also, ban the bird.
Here is my pick: Dockside. Hated what it does for the game.
Trouble in Pairs, Open the Way, Rhystic Study - change your threat assessment. Target the player who plays these. Punish land ramp, punish card draw, punish greed. No need to change your deck 100%. Just swing more towards that player.
I've seen and been in so many games where Rhystic Study and Smothering Tithe player just getting away with it. People really need to update their threat evaluation. They end up winning b/c of the advantage the cards provide.
Personal peet peeve - don't Mana Drain just to gain mana against someone who's not a threat. You're letting the threat go free. If you wouldn't Counterspell it, don't Mana Drain it.
This. Same with group hug players - punch them! They're only giving you things because they think they can get away with it later by wrathing repeatedly or comboing. Don't let them fool you - they're the threat by default.
I'm in favor of some these cards seeing play, but if you drop a Rhystic Study on turn 2-3, that's a target on your back. Ramp more than 1-2 times too early or outside of a landfall shell? Target. I also agree with being the change.
If you Rhystic on turn 6 to get you hand filled again for the end game, then fine
I also understand that Tomer wants his card draw to come at a cost, but what if you're down on life, the board was wiped, and you need cards? MTG kind of needs cards like this so that people can stabilize when they don't have the means to trigger their conditional card draw
The cards are fine. They're generically strong and that's good. The game needs such cards. The problem is when players don't register them as a problem when on the board and with w/e other available context.
If a go-wide token deck drops a Purphoros, God of the Forge (or similar cards), alarm bells should be ringing. These cards should be treated similarly.
And, punch face more. It's fun.
i've said this before on one of your videos but my experience with open the way is : reveal 20 non-land cards, get my 4 basics or duals into play sure, but then proceed to draw only lands for the rest of the game. because all my cards i wanted to draw are bottom decked
In defense of my homie Kenrith, he's the perfect commander for my politics deck since you can target your opponents and their things with his abilities
i think if kenrith said specifically *target opponent* instead of player it would be super interesting and fun
Could also see him as an on theme way to do 5c knights.
That being said, despite some interesting decks, I do dislike the general design of Kenrith and similar unfocused 5c cards.
My biggest gripe with him is he's a white card, but gets to run 5c.
You just proved their point.
I love my group hug Kenrith deck, although I always have to explain the deck before a game in new playgroups. Otherwise, I'll be targeted immediately
there's also the argument that trouble in pairs shouldn't exist because it contains multiple plagiarized illustrations.
I don’t really think you can say Rhystic Study shouldn’t have been printed, considering Commander wasn’t a big thing at the time. WotC wasn’t printing cards with Commander in mind.
wotc shouldn't be printing with commander in mind. That's how we get nadu. And uro. And oko...
@@andrewb378 I agree. Printing cards with Commander in mind has led to some of the worst design mistakes in the last 10 years.
@@andrewb378 oko was not made for commander
My biggest takeaway from this video is that powerful effects are fine if they are costed appropriately. Almost every card mentioned is a problem because they are too cheap for how strong they are. Fierce Guardianship is busted because it’s free most of the time. Yuriko is never more than 2 mana no matter what. Teferi’s Protection is too strong at only 3 mana. Nadu is strong at base but truly broken because Shuko costs 0 to activate.
My own add to this list would be Dockside Extortionist. Would be fine at 4+ mana.
I would fix FG to say “This spell costs U(or 1) less to cast for each time you’ve cast your commander from the CZ this game.” It could eventually be free if you’ve cast your commander three times. That seems cool.
Perch Protection is a good example of a balanced TProt. 6 mana and give your opponent an extra turn to get TProt plus 4 birds. Maybe a bit too nerfed but still more fair than only 3 mana.
Making Yuriko abide by command tax would absolutely fix that card as well.
Nadu is just Nadu lol. I hope it gets banned.
You can build around trouble in pairs - just have repeatable effects that force opponents to draw or attack you every turn (temple bell + untappers, lure effects etc.)
Kenrith also has lots of build-around strategies other than the ones mentioned (Jegantha/zirda companion, activated ability themes etc.)
Well, Goad doesn't help you because Trouble In Pairs says you have to be attacked, not just an opponent attacks with two or more creatures. Goading prevents them from attacking you if there are other players at the table.
@@Thoughtmage100 sorry I confused goad with lure XD
Yeah Howling Mine turns into a draw one for every player with Trouble in Pairs.
You can - the issue is that you don't need to. Like with the expend mechanic in blb, that design rewards you for playing magic in itself. It isn't creative in the least, and very uninteresting. The issue is that it is undeniably more powerful than most synergistic options, making it pretty uninteresting in deckbuilding.
@@lVideoWatcherl "Uninteresting" is subjective. I personally wouldn't try to police the fun at the table by telling people what is and isn't fun. Some people like to build janky decks with obscure cards and difficult win conditions (myself included) whereas others like to play competitively or perhaps are new to the game and would like to fast-track the deck-building process.
To touch on Yuriko and her ruling. They have changed their mind on rules before. Xantcha used to return to the command zone upon a players death. Now she goes to the person who is running her as a commanders control. It makes her worse for Cedh but "better" for causal tables.
You got it backwards
Now it gets exiled
Trouble in pairs and other modern draw engines are making Commander not really feel like a Singleton format to me. The number of cards that the average debt can draw in a game has gone up so much that one can basically guarantee they'll do the thing. Just like how tutors can ruin the feel of the game for some people, drawing all the cards and always having an answer or combo piece has changed the feel of the format to me
Now some people love this and I can see why. It probably is just objectively better, I think I just preferred the sense of mystery that playing 100 cards Singleton had before.
There used to be a lot of card draw in old commander as well now it's just that R and W are getting those sweet sweet cards to keep up.
I enjoy using it my grouping deck since it helps turn my hug into my advantage. I also use it alongside Smothering Tithe and Smugglers Share for the same reason.
@@zacharyroach7947 I don't disagree that there has always been card draw. And I don't protest to R/W getting access to what blue and green has always had for a long time. In fact, I would pose the Simic dominance has not just been the ramp but also the card draw.
My complaint is specifically at the power creep and efficiency of modern card draw across the board. It's often even better than a tutor because drawing 20 more cards than your opponents usually means you have both that board wipe AND that combo piece
@@AgonalRhythm You mention the power creep of card draw but I think the most powerful card spells are still fairly old cards (The One Ring being the biggest exception to that)
@@zacharyroach7947 The *most powerful* draw spells may be old, but the newer stuff is inching closer and closer, making the overall amount of draw in a deck much higher.
There was a time when Rumor Gatherer was nearly an auto-include in white because its access to draw was so bad.
5 years ago, your options for red cantrips was thrill of possibility, pirate's pillage, and tormenting voice. Then we got unexpected windfall, seize the spoils, and electric revelation. Then we got big score and bitter reunion. Then we got witch's mark. This year alone we've gotten demand answers, glimpse the impossible, highway robbery, *and* wheel of potential. And that doesn't even include the card selection stapled to burn spells that didn't even exist before, like valakut awakening, fire prophecy, and volcanic spite.
Power creep isn't just the raw power of each individual card. It's also the total number of those effects that can go in a deck. It's now very nearly possible to build a red deck with no permanent-based sources of card draw. I just put together an Imodane deck where most of my draw is coming from spells instead of permanents because there are just so many options. A deck with just thrill of possibility, pirate's pillage, and tormenting voice isn't going to see many extra cards. A deck with all 13 of the spells I mentioned here is much much better and looking for cards.
They could’ve made Fierce Guardianship bounce an instant or sorcery back to an opponents hand like Narsets reversal.
The argument for Nadu not being banned is the reason if should be banned. Imagine a newer player coming in with their nadu deck that they spent 50 quid on because they opened a pack of modern horizons 3 and thought it was cool, only to be told "we hate your deck, everyone knows Nadu is a horrible commander because X" as one of their early experiences to Commander and Magic as a whole. The community knows. New players do not
i mean, thats the same as tegrid, and eldrazi tribal
So in this make believe world of yours a new player is buying a pack and building a deck from scratch as opposed to just buying a precon?
@@another505tergrid rocked, and the bird isn't that bad at all.
Tomer is 100% correct on Open the Way. Most play groups don’t spend that much on mana bases, Open the Way is a good ramp card, but it’s only a problem in the Clash format where you guys play so many non-basics
there’s an argument to be made that a high number of non-basics is optimal for a lot of deck compositions, and that most people aren’t doing that largely on budget considerations. I don’t think “this card is okay because most people don’t have enough spending money to abuse it properly” holds water.
@@domotoro3552I disagree. Of all the times I’ve faced the card, it never blew the game up. Content creator mana bases are absurd compared to real game pods in my experience.
I recently lost because one opponent casted a Wrath and another player with a full board of Tokens just casted Teferis Protection and it felt so freakin bad and also: Lackluster. Really, really lackluster.
Heroic Intervention is 1 less mana to do the same thing
@@laytonjr6601 No it doesn't. Heroic Intervention protects your board until the end of turn. Teferis Protection phases you out until your turn.
@@thenerdwithoutfear8378 I mean, in that exact situation
@@laytonjr6601 again no. The wrath sat beside the player casting tef pr. and it went to another player plus me until we got back to him.
So we couldn't do anything to him for basically a whole turn cycle and then it was his turn and he took out two players
The worst is when they TP to an opponent's wrath, then you have to sit there like an asshole because you can't wrath on your turn to finish the job. The phase out is fine, but the effect should end on the next player's turn.
Open the Way is high power in a high power deck, and lower power in a lower power deck. It scales VERY well to exactly how you want to build your deck.
Trouble in Pairs is probably pushed a bit far, since it'd be reasonable at the same cost without the 2nd card per turn. Like if it was just mangara but an enchantment.
Mangara the Diplomat should be in every one of Seth's decks then, if he's telling the truth.
It's possible he builds differently off clash for metas with extra turns, but I doubt it very much.
Kenrith points you in many different possible directions! Some of which are pretty fun and unique. 3/5 of his abilities affect creatures specifically, and all 5 are activated abilities. So you can stuff with Agatha, Zirda, bio familiar plus a bunch of activated ability creatures.
I run Scarab God in 99 as a backup reanimator. And coincidentally have the World Tree in the list just to fix my mana. While brewing I realized that some of the Gods have activated abilities that work great with the training grounds package. So suddenly I had a Gods subtheme with the likes of Purphoros, Thassa, Locust God, etc.
Politics is another great option. All 5 of Kennys abilities can help your opponents. My Kenrith deck merges these themes together.
Being able to put the commander into the command zone when ANY state based action occurs is CRAZY. There should be a more slim window to perform that action.
It’s not when any state based action happens. It’s only the first time state based actions are checked after they enter the Graveyard/exile.
feel like this stream was more of the same as every week. "teferi pro bad! land ramp bad! rhystic study bad!" very insightful commentary
17:40 I'm tempted to build the ORIGINAL design of Nadu they talked about, just to show how safe and enjoyable it ACTUALLY would have been.
For the uninformed, original Nadu gave all of your permanents flash and the Oracle draw only triggered when opponents targeted your stuff.
Seems fun honestly
It is so crazy that they thought a limited Vedalken Orrery on legs would be too powerful for commander. It's actually kind of majestic to be that off-base and redesign the card without testing the new iteration out of that left-field fear.
Tell me you don’t play cEDH without telling me you play cEDH.
The OG nadu would’ve been broken in cEDH.
Dockside, breach, isochron scepter, Kiki jiki, thassa’s Oracle, etc
@@dgreenlonghorn1 am I misunderstanding you, or are you saying people would run Dockside, Underworld Breach, and Kiki-Jiki in a simic deck?
@dgreenlonghorn1 I do not play Cedh. Plus, who cares if it's broken in cedh? Just adapt or whatever
surprised the eminence commanders didn't come in, as much as I love the Ur-Dragon, Eminence is basically an emblem you start with and Sorin in particular is so strong
Sorin?
Any card that says "Commander" or "Command Zone" in the rules or reminder text should probably be a red flag for design.
I think when people see "Open the Way" they think its capped at number of opponents, and not number of players.
What about taxing Yuriko by yourself as self-imposed rule? Just float extra mana into the air and pretend that you paid the tax. It's not even breaking the rules, technically.
(And yes, it's kinda copium, but still.)
you could “self-errata” ANY broken/mis-designed card you want to do that to, should your playgroup be okay with it. You could just as easily say “ok guys, in my deck rhystic only triggers once per turn” or something. doesn’t at all change the problems inherent to the card’s design because it’s only an errata for you, not for everyone.
An odd paradox I’ve seen often, is while the community does encourage proxy a large number of players I encounter at multiple game stores refuse to proxy a card they don’t own. 🤷♀️
In my experience 'the community' here is a small subset of the actual community that's active in online spheres. The broader community is a lot more of what you see at an lgs or whatever and their opinions are not the same.
In my head this is how Trouble in Pairs was made:
Leader: "Ok guys we need gas to sell a precon."
Creator: "Ok, what about a white Rhystic study"
Leader: "Ooooo I smell Mula! Go!"
Creator: "Ok so the card is called "Trouble in Pairs" , it's 2 white and 2 colorless.....
Leader: "Whoa whoa whoa.... 4 cmc!?
What are you doing to me!?" You said white Rhystic Study."
Creator: "Let me cook."
Assistant: *whispers* "Let him cook."
Creator: "Like I was saying....Trouble in Pairs is a 2 white 2 colorless enchantment who's first line of text will read If an opponent would begin an extra turn, that player skips that turn instead.
Creator: "Are you trying to gaslight me?"
Assistant: "Let him cook!"
Creator: " ....Followed by.....Whenever an opponent attacks you with two or more creatures, draws their second card each turn, or casts their second spell each turn, you draw a card.
Leader: "Oooooh Snap that's Mula!!!!"
Creator: "I wasn't finished...."
Leader: "You're reaching Yu-Gi-Oh level word count at this point."
Assistant: *whispers* "This is the best part."
Creator: "We steal the art." *Drops mic*
Leader: *whispers* "We're gonna need a bigger boat."
I know you think this is funny but it is not
"Green is a mistake"
We all heard it. Finally, welcome brother tomer.
Thank you Tomer for always being there to remind the Goldfish crew that they are some of the most greedy mana base players out there. Seth’s argument of “well what about proxies” just shows how out of touch they are with it. Richard is slamming Field of the Dead in every deck. Phil goes into each week with all of the fetches and surviels in every color he can squeeze into each deck. Seth is just copying Richard and Phil. Crim misses his land drops so I don’t think it matters if his mana base is greedy but it’s wild how every week they just constantly drop hundreds of dollars to thousands of dollars of lands across the battlefield collectively and then sit around and go “Are people really playing that many basics?” BRUH! Yes! We can’t afford to that many copies of that many expensive lands and be able to jam them into any deck we want.
Using the argument of “well players can proxy” instead of just accepting that you’re playing decks well outside of most people’s budget is wild. It’s not like the deck lists are secret so we could see deck prices whenever if we wanted, but it’s uncommon for them to openly talk about how expensive their cards and decks really are.
My opinions here but I think proxies being allowed is fine. I personally don’t really care if they are played but I also won’t personally buy any because I don’t think it’s worth it. If I truly wanted a valuable card I’d want the real deal so I could sell it later if needed. There’s also the social stigma of buying powerful proxies. “You want to win so bad you’re proxying” “off brand magic” it’s the same as anything else that has a real product and a fake one.
I will say you and i I may need many lands to fill out our decks but for commander clash they only need one of each so it becomes for reasonable since they dont need the same deck next week. Like i could probably build one manabase like theirs from my whole collecition of 10 years.
I'd be happy if none of these cards existed. Open The Way and Rhystic Study aren't really on my radar as problem cards, but I wouldn't be upset to see them gone if it meant all the others mentioned in the video go with them. I'd get rid of Dockside Extortionist, the whole free spell cycle from Ikoria (would honestly be fine getting rid of pretty much every spell that can completely circumvent the use of mana to be cast), Smothering Tithe, Necropotence, Field of the Dead, and fast mana.
While i see crims point on the tuck rule, i have to disagree with it. Any rule that encourages/forces you to play tutors is a bad design.
wish we heard a few more cards that aren't already established as hated by this group
I think I sort of agree on the tuck rule, kind of Drannith Magistrate. On one hand, having your Commander permanently removed from availability feels really bad when you are playing a janky Kithkin tribal deck. However, it feels like a necessary weapon against Korvold, Jodah, and the like. When Commanders increase in power, the weapons against need to get better too.
Back in time, what my colleagues and I did was to run certain amount of tutors that specifically worked with the commander, to get it back asap, like Fleshwrither for 4 CMC commanders, or transmute cards. Good old times (snif-snif).
The only way Seth will cast his commander is if cost 8 mana and it said etb lose14 life draw a card.
I disagree with the kenrith argument. Everytime you see like random legendary sliver or urtet you pretty much know the decklist as they are all the same. The narrow 5c commanders funnel you into the same deck. While with kenrith you can take it to any direction. Sure you can be lame and just play all the good cards but you always could do that anyway with any commander. I had a golos that tutors sorrows path but rc banned it.
The problem is with five color commanders in general. Make them too open-ended, and they just become a catch-all that dilutes diversity. Make them focus too much on a niche, and they just become defacto commanders for their given niche with little reason to have commander-focused legends in any other color that focus on that same niche.
59:00 Crim's kinda cooking here. The tuck rule was brutal back in the day, but it was like the only reprieve from commanders like Derevi. Nowadays there are so many more commanders that warp games and it could be nice to have a break from that.
This also means that my own commander is subject to being tucked, but I can live with that.
Nadu, next question.
bUt SiMiC fLaSh CoMmAnDeR iS tOo StRoNg!!!1!
"you're right, better change it and not playtest it" - WotC
@@brkn613 that was never what they said. The feedback they got was that a 3 mana vedalken orrery in the command zone generally slowed the game down/made it less fun. Nadu was NOT changed for power level.
12:00 a sort of necessary counter for power creep and/or not every deck will have 50, 30 or heck even 20 cards that have solid synergy in a commander deck
Preach it Crim! Bring back the tuck rule!
Edit: Funny story about the tuck rule, back in the day my friend Sam would always tuck my commander with bant charm, hinder, condemn, etc. and after I shuffled I'd always give my deck to her to cut it and with like 99% success ratio she would nearly always cut my commander to the top of my deck 🤣
Non-basic land ramp, is basically a tutor, and some of us arn't playing tutors. Open the way is kind of random, really strong. But a card that lets you get your Maze of Ith, or combo land, (no one plays field of the dead right? too strong), is just a tutor.
I ahve never agreed with Tomer on anything but man im with him on the Fierce guardianship hate train. I really feel free counterspells as a whole are a MASSIVE design mistake, because i cant tell you how many times i need to deal witht he blue player and I'll do the right thiung, I wait for them to be tapped out and then i STILL get blownout out by the MULTIPLE free spells they have in their hand that can be easily drawn/tutored/flashed back. like a blue player can literally decide to not let anyone interact with them and we are always trying to tell players to interact more.
Pact of Negation and the free when you exile two from Hand are somewhat okay. At least there is an actual cost, though I agree that free spells should not exist without you building towards it, basically announcing it to the table.
I think most of the free counterspells are fine because they actually have a cost. The cost for running guardianship is that 2% of the time you'll have to pay 3 for it because your commander is dead. A 3-mana counterspell is always better than no counterspell.
14:50 the craziest thing is it’s not easier to follow in Arena. The triggers on the stack go absolutely nuts and can even time you out
The sole reason I say Kenrith gets a pass is that he is the only Group-Hug-Style commander in 5c since you can target any player with the abilities.
isn’t that kinda the PROBLEM with cards designed like kenrith? “no other option to do the thing I wanna do in 5c so I’m just gonna jam kenrith”
I want to see how someone who played Teferis Protection is getting got by Disciple of Caelus Nin, or Sands of Time. That would be so fun.
Cards that specifically mention commander in the text box were a mistake
As someone with a Kenrith deck, he is the commander for thematic reasons only. Being the King Arthur of Magic informed him being the commander of my Arthurian Knights themed deck, but I agree that him being the go-to generic 5c good stuff commander is eyerolling.
Open the Way is so pushed. Usually 5 mana ramp gets 2 nonbasics. 4 mana gets you 2 basics. But now you can pay five to get 3 Nonbasics
The trade off though (not that is much of a trade off, the card is gas) is that you don't get to choose what you want. Like Hour of Promise is powerful not because it's two nonbasics for 5 mana, it's whatever lands you want/need for 5 (and 1 G so super easy to splash)
Meh, in my lands matters decks I kinda just want actual land tutors rather than a slot machine.
…And 6 mana to ramp 4. So weird to me that everyone seems to think X is capped at the number of opponents, not players.
@@andyspendlove1019 yeah i am also confused why so many people mention the 5 mana ramp 3, and not the 6 mana ramp 4 which is even more insane.
@@EvilShade82 I think it all depends on how much you ramped earlier/how patient you want to be. I have found that I generally just let it rip for X=3 or X=2 (usually because I missed my land drop and just need to) moreso than X=4.
I appreciate the tuck rule vs oubliette-like abilities, but I think a big difference between the two is color parity. Tuck cards go massively in favor of blue, and tutors obviously favor black. Whereas every color but red has an oubliette-like card, and there are more answers to retrieve your commander in various colors depending on the card used against your commander.
Seth can't pronounce the word "goldfish" but "Urtet, Remnant of Memnarch" rolls off the tongue.
He said remnarch of memnarch 😂
Remnarch of Memnarch 😂
@@seanedgar164 Dang, should have known 🤣
when talking about trouble in pairs, I'm confused why the idea of using enchantment removal isn't even brought up
Trouble in Pairs is fine. It's another generically strong enchantment. The only thing offensive about it is the art theft.
Agreed
Thanks for the Ezio pronounciation, Crim. My wife was going to have a conniption.
Fierce Guardianship - If you control a commander with mana value of 6 or greater, you may cast this spell without paying its mana cost.
or let me 1Up this one:
Fierce Guardianship - If you control a commander of uncommon rarity, you may cast this spell without paying its mana cost.
That’d be terrible and nobody would play it
@@dgreenlonghorn1 i’d play that, easy
@@brandonjensen586 and it’d be a dead card every early game… making it objectively worse than a base CS
So I guess bad deck builders would use it. I’ll concede I’m wrong about “nobody playing it.”
I guess I meant nobody who’s a good deck builder would play it.
@@dgreenlonghorn1 Well, it's a dead card either way without your Commander, strictly speaking :)
@@dgreenlonghorn1 how would it be objectively worse than base CS? Its free if i meet its very simple requirement
And the “dead card early game” argument is weak. That would apply to any card worth more than 3 mana.
God, i remember the fear of getting the commander spell crumpled
Crim having beard seems ... Weird. Unsettling. Just like a control player should make you feel like
We’re calling that a beard ? 😅
Whenever Crim talks I can’t remember what he says because my brain goes fuzzy thinking about how handsome he is.
Can't believe Orcish Bowmasters doesn't even get an honorable mention
Or cards that turn off basic mechanics like life gain or draw altogether.
@@MultiKbarry those cards are good for the game tho
I think it's fine in commander, I just wish we'd get an in-universe printing.
@@xdelbarrioStrongly disagree. Cards that counter those effects by offsetting them is good for the game but cards that shut off a mechanic inherent to the game is bad.
Ie. Sheoldred, the Apocalypse, whenever an opponent draws a card, they lose 2 life. Powerful, but it does not stop them drawing cards. It just punishes opponents for drawing a lot of cards. Leovold on the other hand, where your opponents cannot draw more than one card a turn, created combos where opponents were effectively locked out of the game and card draw was turned off. Bad (and banned because of it).
@@Dragon_Fyre I think you are right when they are asymmetrical and on a commander, but narset is in the format and not banned and neither is notion thief. the card draw stop is not the only reason leovold is banned
I do prefer and like the effect more when its symmetrical like rampaging ferocidon or spirit of the labyrinth, makes it more balanced
For Open the Way, it’s not busted in regards to ramp (there are commons that get you two basic lands for 4 CMC so 3 lands for 5 CMC with the option to ramp less for reduced cost is hardly broken in Green).
What makes it so powerful, is that it gets you lands not basic lands. Most players do not have the Gaea’s Cradle, Nykthos, Field of the Dead, Three Tree etc. lands where this card shines, which I think is why the inclusion % is so low.
The tuck rule made the game so much better changing it made the format so much for the worse, it forced people to build more resilient decks and punished glass cannon decks more. Please bring it back!
Play more theft and phasing and you can get the same result. And it's better now than it ever was.
Literally all that happened is people stacked their decks full of tutors to find their commander back. If thats "resilience" then I can do without that
Tomer is mad about trouble in pairs, but this is whites new style. If an opponent does something, you benefit. I love it.
For a brief second I've read "Trouble in Paris" and I was wondering wtf happened to Tomer... 😂
That’s so boring and generic though. Why even specify “if”? Of course your opponent will want to do things… that’s the point of the game. I get that you can just remove it, but I don’t like generically good as a design, and white is getting a ton of it these days.
@@Jlizard27 I like it because that’s the point of white. To be fair, make things equal. My only complaint is that it’s too easy to cast. Should have been 4 white maybe, no generic mana, that way you limit it to only white
@@andrewwaring3643 It should at least have one generic 3 white. For those enchantment or white discount cards aren’t made useless when playing it.
Tomer taking out Sol Rings of the Decks, what a mtg soul mate. ❤️ our playgroup decided to do this some time ago, one of the best ban decisions we made.
I think trouble in pairs is fine. Heaven forbid you draw an extra card when your opponent just drew 5+ or they stormed off playing a ton of spells
The problem is the opposite case, where you draw a card or two on _each_ players turn, when they're just doing normal things. If it just let you draw 5+ cards if any player had drawn 5 or more, it wouldn't be a problem.
Cathar’s Crusade? I removed it from my decks based on how unfun it is.
Honest Question: How is it the case that Commander Clash plays Open The Way so much, and is convinced that it is broken, but nobody else is? I don't see it in other gameplay channels, and nobody talks about it. Are they geniuses, or completely wrong? Is it a meta thing? An Aftermath effect?
Open the way is only as good as your lands are, and the commander clash plays super greedy utility land-heavy mana bases. If you aren’t shoving high-power lands into your deck it’s still good but not busted.
@@Lazydino59 That brings you to the other thing I am still unsure about. Is the Clash mana base actually better? Richard is convinced that the risks are just not there, and I am not sure. Is it optimal to play this way, which means Open The Way is an actually broken card, or are they just in a strange meta where a certain type of risk is safer than usual?
@@ethanglaeser9239 I think a bit of both. Personally I think they go a bit far on colorless utility lands, but there is a “ideal” amount (I think 8-12 but depends ofc). They also try and ramp quite hard (ramp on 2 -> ramp on 4), moreso than I do. I’d say on average open the way is an 8/10 and underrated for sure, but it isn’t godly unless you build especially greedy and ramp heavy. So tldr it scales with your greed and clash is very greedy XD, so depends on your playstyle
I add it to every green deck I own that I need to ramp out with, which is most. Getting bounce lands, talon gates, Urborg, cabal, and such is broken. 5 or 6 mana for 3-4 most likely non basics is busted. I’m a firm believer in the land meta and my decks and winrate have proven it.
Tempt with Discovery is better in most random pods, I've found.
Kenrith is a great 5c commander when you want to have Secret Commander(s) in your 99. Always being able to reanimate it is great
Open the way is easy access to your best lands. It ramps them out pretty easily. A person who understand the power of lands knows that a card like this indirectly win the game.
It's easy access to _some_ lands, of which your _best_ lands could be
40:11 Derevi comes to mind I believe he was looking for cards that skirt the command tax and yes there are a couple all of them a mistake
This is basically Shark Tank part 2
I think the issue with Crim's argument for Trouble in Pairs is that it doesn't reward you for opponents going off. It rewards you for your opponents doing the bare minimum.
34:20 man just always has the worst takes
Congratz on finally moving in fully Crim!
I ve played a lot vintage in the early days and land destruction is in the game for a reason. And the powercreep allowes to use more land destruction. Its the answer to a lot of that cards you listed 😂
I've only played against restric study 3 times and each time I was playing mill and the whole table agreed to never pay and milled them out
I agree with Crim on Trouble in Pairs. I think it will only be powerful if everyone else is doing great.
Proxying is fine at my LGS table, a couple of my friends have fully proxied decks. Zero out of a dozen or so regular players are proxying a Content Creator Manager BaseTM because that isn’t our table norm. One guy kinda did it with Necrobloom and it causes Issues (not all our decks are built to deal with a dredgeable Glacial Chasm showing up every game).
I’m running 6-14 basics per deck, a couple MDFCs, a little land removal and a couple other utility lands. Maybe one real fetch in most decks, three if I care about landfall or lands in the yard. I don’t buy lands over like $7 for a deck if I can possibly help it.
Open the way is fine because you don’t get to choose which lands you get, I definitely agree that it is a severely underplayed card because having a scaleable ramp spell is super powerful