You appear to have put in an archaic flat plate system, with predictable results. Evacuated tube systems have been available for some time now, and are phenomenally efficient when properly set up, including on overcast days: they actually capture more energy by area than your solar PV plates. They do not require an antifreeze glycol primary circuit, as the water passes only through a lagged header, not through the tubes. And they are simple and inexpensive to install, but do require a degree of understanding. As for the circulation pump (which delivers hot water directly to our hot water cylinder) we put it in the airing cupboard, with the cylinder. I installed a small evac tube setup some years ago and we have never looked back. I should only add that ours is a low pressure off the grid water system with very clean water, both of which make plumbing easy and reliable. I cannot vouch for the durability of the system in high pressure and/or corrosive water situations.
Evacuated tubes was something I'd asked the installer about (because I'd seen them frequently in the past). I don't recall why they suggested we not go that route. It would NOT have been cost related because at every opportunity I asked them to beef up the system they were installing because I wanted to maximize the chances of it working well. So I can't say why we didn't go that route. Perhaps that was another government mandate that only panels were allowed for some reason? Vacuum tubes are a rather rare sight in my state. Maybe the panel lobby has pushed policy? I really am not sure - other than that I know I brought them up and I know we didn't go that way. It's nice to hear that your tube system works well! Perhaps I look into that and see about replacing my panels when they die someday.
I think part of the problem is that most people have no idea of how the evac tube systems work.They just assume it is a new shape working on the old principals, which it is not: flat plates are just passive collectors, evac tubes are actually heat pumps, the working principals are entirely different. On a hot day they are noticeably cold to the touch, since all the radiant energy striking them is being delivered to the water system. I just installed my own, and here's something they don't tell you: if you install with the array pitched up at one end on a fairly flat roof (as we did for optimal sun angle) you capture not only heat from above, but heat radiated from the roof, which strikes the back of the tubes. My tubes get a small buildup of dust and pollen down the back of them, and I actually leave that on during the summer months to help limit our water temperatures.
Thanks Bob, that's an excellent depiction of how the system is different. I REALLY wish that I'd not let the installer talk me into the panels. I (again) don't recall exactly what he said that made me opt for the panels, but I DO know that my initial plan was to go for the tubes because (given their being an upgrade over the older-style panels). I really don't recall what they'd said to talk me out of them. What I CAN say is that, given the fact that I'm almost always heating water with electricity anyhow, it seems that both the tubes AND solar PV are BOTH better than the option that I was pushed into. Again, I much appreciate your breaking down the tubes function a little more for me - that's interesting.@@bobirving7460
@@PraxisAdventures the thing with the evac tubes is that they normally are used in low pressure systems ak not connected directly to domestic water. But they work great, a frind of mine has a 3m² system here (in El Alto Bolivia, maybe not the best reference be course of the height) and that heats 2000l of water in 3 days to 80 degrees in an more or less isolated tank
I'm not surprised by this post - we have a unit from an RV which diverts electric from the solar when the batteries are full into an an emersion heater that supplies hot water in all but the worse of winter - we have changed routines so we use hot water towards the late afternoon to fit the surplus energy pattern - we have a a back up
Funny, we are afternoon bathers too. The back boiler kicks out the hot water and we need to use the surplus between twelve and two.Just changed our routine to match the system….chuckle.
Yeah, timing showers is a great tool too. I think of summer showers during the daytime as free "use it or lose it" energy. I use a timer on our system too. So the electric heater only can kick on during the middle of the day when there is the best sun. 1.5 hours of electric heating per day is enough to keep the tank hot and ready to use for the evening showers (of 10 mins or less each). Personally, I get mine in in under 5 mins. ;)
I've got solar hot water and it works brilliantly for me, but I do live in the tropics where we get 2 seasons a year - a hot humid summer and a cooler, far less humid summer. My system has 2 flat panels heating water and a large tank all on on a stand. They were on my roof, but I moved them to the top of a water tank (me and a buddy took the system apart, dragged the components up and down ramps made of 5m long planks to move them to the tank and then re-assembled the unit) - when my new roof was installed. It used to have 3 panels feeding the tank, but this made the water extremely hot - I could hear the system boiling water for hours on hot days. Even with just 2 panels, the water is far too hot to put your hand under at any time of the day or night. Even after 5 or so overcast days in a row - which is very rare around here - I still get warm water - not hot, but nice and warm and easily warm enough for shower / bath. The system had an electrical booster hooked up so you could use electricity to heat the water on overcast days, but I didn't need it, so it was disconnected when the solar hot water was moved form roof to water tank. P.S. I have 13 kW of solar panels on my roof and I love these as well ! Free electricity and I make $100+ per month tax free from the excess electricity I sell back to the grid - even in "Winter". The whole system will pay itself off in 4 years. Wonderful !
Sounds like you have a great setup. I'm sure the tropics makes it a bit easier on this front. I have a friend in Puerto Rico who is always poking (friendly) fun at my channel and I was SURE he was going to be on me for this one. "You're living in the wrong place!" he always says. So I was expecting him to have a very functional system for this at his place. But he actually told me (after watching this video) that he'd been having issues too - but in his case, it's from hurricanes grabbing at the panels in his system and damaging them. That's one thing I made sure of on my system - that the panels would be flat up against the roof. I literally built that shed specifically for the purpose of holding those panels. I figured why build scaffolding when I can put in a little extra effort and get a free shed too. So I designed the roof pitch to match the panels' required angle.
Even in the sub-tropics it worked ok, but no longer worthwhile now that solar PV is so cheap. Because the places where solar thermal works well, the solar PV you could put on your roof these days for the same area / less cost will finish heating your tank by mid morning anyway, then you'd get extra electricity for the rest of the day. Solar PV used to be expensive, so solar thermal was a cheaper way to get hot water, that's no longer the case.
If you let too much heat in through windows you need external shading. For the south (Northern hemisphere) or north (Southern hemisphere) you want big eaves. For east / west you need external shading/awnings. Some building regulations might not recognize non-fixed screens.
I am in agreement as I have been looking at the same situation for my property. Even with evacuated tubes, I am generating a lot of heat in the summer where there are far less expensive alternatives. 40 years ago, this may not have been the case as the technology for solar electricity was not as robust/efficient.
I have five 4 x 8 flat hot water solar panels. I live in Chicago. I have 13 hot water radiators also. The system is a draining back system, but i only uses distilled water, no glycol'. The 120 gal solar hot water tank has two heat exchangers. One on the bottom for the panels on the roof and one in the middle for the boiler. (on demand hot water) When I bought the system I asked the Guy if I could use the middle heat exchanger for the radiators. He told me no it wouldn't work, but I did it anyway. These panels supplement the heat in my house on a sunny day in the winter. I also use them for heat in the fall and the spring. During the spring and fall it could get too hot in the house because I'm just trying to dump heat in the house for night. I extract the heat into the hot water radiators keeping the system running for a longer period of time. As it's made, it's extracted back out into the radiators.If it's a sunny day, the heat will not come on until about 5 o'clock in the afternoon.You are correct, in the winter time If there's no sun, they don't come on. During the summer time, I am amazed at how often they come on if the sun is not out at all. I've had them for over 20 years and they're still working great. I've had temperatures of 200°. Love them. One of my best investments. We've obviously had two different experiences. I've try to heat water with a 255 W solar panel. It couldn't even warm a 3 gallon bucket. I always say it's an uphill battle trying to heat a hot water with solar electric. I'm not saying it can't be done, but it takes an awful lot of electricity to do it. When I have time I might do a video. I have some videos on my phone where it was like 15 below Fahrenheit and these things were working great. Take care. Sorry to hear about your experience. Somethings wrong.
Thanks for that. Its great to hear that your system works well. You have almost twice as many panels so perhaps that helps yours work better. When my system was proposed they said I could do it with 2 panels or 3 for better performance. If the number of panels is my issue, I can't imagine how poorly it would have run with only the two minimum they suggested. Mine is a drain back system too. If you do that video, let me know at PraxisPrepper@gmail.com and I'll post a link to it for everyone from this video.
Even in Ecuador the solar heaters we installed had an inversion heater installed. It's a give and take. Put the panels in a green house and supplement with wood stove and copper coil. It's about being independent not the cost necessarily.
I've looked into woodstove chimney heat exchangers frequently. Heat around our chimney IS something that's very common all winter long. Not many companies make them though. I think I've only seen one that looked like it was of any quality at all and it's made in Australia.
I heat water with PV resistive with advanced electronics you can't buy. It is amazing how much energy a typical PV system just throws away. I can divert any excess power whether it be 1W all the way up to 1500W. Panels always stay at power point for maximum energy transfer. Doesn't use any battery, charge controller or inverter resources. Standard water heaters with mechanical thermostats have no problem with arc issues. I have three water heaters on a relatively small PV system. Laundry has its own tank and clothes washer uses hot water for all cycles. This is an ideal method which is really cheap to make. The solar world is just so technically illiterate.
Thanks Mike. Honesty is definitely my thing. Whenever I do a product review on a product sent to me the companies that sent it usually seem surprised and confused about the delay I suggest in releasing a video due to wanting to actually test products out before telling my audience that they're great... and the companies often times seem even more confused when I tell them that their product has issues that I'll need to be mentioning in the review. Needless to say, while I get plenty of companies approaching me once to test a product, I don't hear back from many of them again for a second product. ;)
I'm not sure if that's a rhetorical question. Did you watch the video? Let me know if you're still unsure after watching it. I'm always happy to field questions.
In order for solar hot water systems to be effective, you need MASSIVE insulated water storage tanks above or ideally underground to be a heat battery. The summer time will help charge the heat battery. You pull the heat out of the water and heat the differential for your hot water use and/or for heat in the house during the winter. Really high up front cost. Worth it? Meh. If you have mega bucks to invest, pay cash up front, probably. If you are Joe Blow and need to take out a loan for that, uh uh.
Yeah, I can see that maybe being helpful. But I can see your point on the massive investment vs the return - especially given that there are other cheaper ways to heat the water (like with solar voltaic power).
Yeah. I'm just one data point in that research. That said, I'd offer that pretty much anywhere that solar hot water DOES work great would be a totally fine place to just use solar voltaic tech instead. Although in very warm areas, perhaps solar hot water would have a leg up because of the simplicity of the tech (when it's done DIY as a tank on a roof that sits in the sun).
Yeah it definitely depends in the application. Yours kind of looked not black and maybe not quite optimized. Just for hot water, id probably just get pv panels or use gas. I have a homemade flat panel system and a larger one im building. I use a heat exchange and convert to heat in WI. I get heat even to like negative temperatures and when its partly cloudy, and i expect to get even more out of about 46 sq ft new system. The existing one is like 19 sq ft. I have 1000sq ft space and the smaller one heats about 150-200 sq ft at 32 f i can maintain the temperature.
When I suggested that directly to the minion hired by the state to check boxes, he seemed compelled by the idea, but wasn't empowered to do anything with that information in the way of waiving the mandate to install conventional windows.
Can you replace the hot water panels with normal PV units? It seems the government wouldn't know about it so you could maybe buy some cheaper second hand panels and start producing power that would actually power your water heater.
I totally can do that without any legal issues. The mandate was to install the system - not to maintain it indefinitely. I'm toying with a few approaches to fix the situation. One that I'm eyeing with the most interest is to see if I can re-route the glycol pipes to the chimney of my woodstove. I'd like to either build or buy some sort of chimney heat collector to heat the glycol. The woodstove is always warm all winter, so that'd be a great place to heat water very easily. Perhaps I could build a branching system such that I could send the glycol out to the panels in the summer when it tends to work okay, but send it to the woodstove in the winter. Long term, as soon as the system has any major issue that requires an expensive fix, it's going to be scrapped for that heat pump system.
That's a big issue with battery tech (and pretty much everything else in our society) isn't it. We just don't prioritize re-use and sustainability as any self-preserving species should.
I'm glad you enjoyed the thumbnail, but I have to admit that it's just an AI created image. I asked leonardo.ai to create an image of "a cabin in the woods with solar panels and a couple in front with a look of fear and an overwhelming sense of aloneness." It took a few tries, but it got the look and feel I was going for.
That's a suggestion that I've wondered about myself as well. Not being at all familiar with solar hot water at the time of the install, I deferred to the installers to help me through those decision. I don't recall the discussion about that option, only that we went the way we did. My discussion with them would NOT have hinged on cost. As it was, I asked them to go with the bigger and beefier option at every turn. For example, with the panels, they'd said I could go with a minimum 2 or 3 for added heating, and I went with 3. Had the vacuum tubes been presented as superior by the installer, I'd have gone that way. So I don't recall the specifics. The installer themselves were great. Very professional, punctual, and their work was top notch. I built my house myself, so I know quality work when I see it (straight lines, well reinforced unions etc.). They did great work in that way. In fact, being a bit uncomfortable with heights, I hired them again to put the metal rails on my main roof for the solar electric system - and was glad that I did because their work was quality and I'm not a fan of heights. Then I installed the panels myself onto their rails.
I subbed- Honest explanation of a system that sucks, yet pushed by the guv, plus, on a lighter note... In the world of Star Trek, Praxis is a Klingon moon that exploded due to more guv exploitation if I remember correctly- it was overmined and typical of some(others may argue 'most') Klingons, safety protocol wasn't exactly a strongpoint LOL
I adopted the name Praxis due to the meaning of the word in the original Greek. It refers to the process of transforming ideas into physical reality. But I've on occasion had it suggested to me that the Klingon moon was the first thing it brought to mind in a viewer or two, and I don't mind that connection at all. I'm a fan of Star Trek, and when I was a kid, Start Trek VI (the film that opens with Praxis blowing up) was a favorite movie of mine.
@@PraxisAdventures I learn the some of the most interesting things here on YT. So it figures that I would know a bit more about 80's pop culture over a bit of good historical Greek knowledge LOL. After your explanation, the name makes very good sense for your channel. Thanks for the response and looking forward to more content from you. Cheers!
Man, that’s such a buzzkill. Especially in regard to the windows. So what about an electric hot water heater? With the solar panels, that will probably work out good, no?
Right now that's what I pretty much always use - electricity to heat the water. On sunny days that electricity comes from my solar voltaic panels, but on any day that's not totally sunny, the power comes from the local power grid, which is primarily powered by coal. So the state mandates prevented me from having more solar electric power and forced me to have to keep going back to the coal powered grid. All that said, this IS an easy problem to solve. All one needs to do is: 1 - Have plenty of solar voltaic panels. I think 10kw of them would work just fine almost all the time. 2 - swap the heating element in the water heater to be smaller. I have a 5kw heating element and that DOMINATES the entire system when it comes on. I have the entire system on a time so it only clicks on for 1 and a half hours per day (around noon when the sun is best). If I could swap to a 2kw heating element and just have it run 2 or 3 times as long, then the power drain would be less "earth-shattering" whenever that thing clicks on. It's a big thing. Every day around 11am, I need to assess the sun sitch and manually decide whether to switch back to grid power if the sun isn't full enough to hold the 5kw heating element. If I'd had a smaller heating element, then the drain would be spread out more evenly throughout the day. 3. Consider a heat pump system for the water heating. I don't know the specifics, but in my experience heat pump systems are always more energy efficient than straight heating element systems. AND they give you the free AC. So this whole problem is actually pretty easy to solve and shouldn't be a buzz kill. The solution is there. The problem is government rules mandating people do something that doesn't make any sense... except for the solar hot water installing industry. That said, I should say that the installer company I hired was great and I have no problems with them. They did a great job. it's just the tech they supply is inappropriate for this location.
i think the hot water panel isn't the problem. u said that it produces heat when its not needed and when it is needed it doesn't produce heat. that sounds more like a suply and demand problem that can be solved by adding a heat storing device like a salt hydadtes battery ar a phase change battery. the first one can stor heat for a very long time with zero het loss.
I agree. If the system used a heat storage device that could store more heat to last between effective sun-warming days, it'd work better. Although that said, another effective option would be to just heat on demand with PV power. No moving parts and simpler overall system. But your point is correct, if the system could store more heat, it'd resolve some of the issues.
Definitely look into other people's experiences aside form mine too. Maybe other people have slightly different setups that work better. Mine is only one data point.
Thermal solar Vacuum tubes is the way to go. You 4 times the energy per areal with thermal heating instead of going via electric. Maybe hate your planning - not the tech.
I haven't experienced vacuum tubes. So I can't comment on the performance of that approach. My inclination is that the vacuum aspect of the design (and their diminished surface area in general) would help to greatly minimize that constant heat loss I mention that vexes these panel system technology (which is the tech I have the issue with at my location).
Those vacuum tubes are going out of style since pv panals are 1/4 the cost they used to be. when the batteries are full, dump power into heating water.
That's exactly what I do now. When the sun is up, I manually flip on the electric element in the tank (it's on a timer to only go on during the peak of the day, but can be manually over-ridden). We pump power into the water as long as the batteries can hold out and then switch back as they weaken. It's not a great way to do it (manually). If I can replace out the heating element with a lower power element, the solar panels should be able to hold it even with only mild-moderate sun without my having to manually flip back and forth to avoid over-taxing the system with the 5kw heating element.@@2legit2quuit
In practice, living in a town, that can be easier said than done. That said... my area doesn't have any building permit procedure for root cellars. I was told to just go ahead and build without a permit by the inspector. Makes one think that maybe underground "root cellar" homes could be an interesting no permit way to go.
Just because you could doesn't mean you should. It sounds like to much time was spent looking at subsidies and tax credits and not enough on the technologies. If the technology is available and not banned then it is a case of getting what you pay for.
It sounds like you were only half paying attention to the video. Sorry for the swipe, I often only half pay attention to videos to while I'm doing something else too. No, this wasn't a case of my ignorantly choosing a technology without the proper research. This was a case of the government telling me that I HAD to use this specific technology or I wouldn't be allowed to build my home. The government picked the winner here, not me. Had I been given an option back at the time of construction, I'd definitely NOT have gone with solar hot water panels - if only for the fact that they have more moving parts and points of failure in them vs PV alone.
Why do you say you were "forced" by the govt? You weren't "forced" into anything. That sounds like doublespeak for not wanting to admit your own failure.
That's a nice way of asking that question. It's both polite AND helps to advance the conversation. There's an answer to your question, and I'm happy to share it, if you ask it using your polite grown up voice.
Yeah, Northeast USA. I didn't sweat being specific in the video, because what's important is the sort of weather in someone's area. I think equatorial areas would likely make more sense because the ambient temp is pretty warm anyhow, so the cloud cover isn't going to strip heat away too fast when the clouds go by. But in my region (and those similar) I just don't think this tech makes sense to use (let alone mandate by law).
I'm actually free to do whatever i want now. I just need to install and show it was installed to get an occupancy permit. There's no obligation on me to use it forever. My only question is exactly how I transition away from it, and when I begin the transition.
Wait until we'll be imposed by new rules about heat efficiency and meeting ,, carbon zero " thingy. They will tell you to put the heat pump in the old stone cottage. There is already a rule that you can't put windows in above some certain size.
I live off grid so they can’t get me. And being a user of wind and solar….they are great unti the wind stops blowing or the sun stops shining….then I am using dirty diesel. @@MrDziuka can’t fix the stupidity of government.
I've been reading a book about micro hydro power recently and if I recall correctly, I think that parks of the British Isles were specifically mentioned as being regulation hell when it comes to setting up micro hydro power. Preexisting setups were torn down in favor of large scale government projects that burned fossil fuels etc. I personally understand that regulations DO have upsides. I almost moved to a different state in the US until I found out that there were no regulations about people burning trash. So the neighbors could (and were) burning their trash and the smoke was able to be smelled almost a mile away. I didn't end up moving there. So I get that some ability for people to be able to control people who are irresponsible and dangerous to those around them... but on the flip side, it really stinks to be someone who DOES act responsibly and to have to bend knee to these things. I felt a lot of this during covid too. I was one of those "dangerous" people who weren't too keen on testing the new vaccines out on myself or my family. Society really tried to marginalize people like me. I was criticized by so many people over that decision too. And today almost to the person, everyone I know that did the "responsible" thing and got the vaccine ended up getting (and in most cases spreading) covid, and I've still managed to avoid getting it ever (or any other cold or flu since then either). So yeah, I wish there were some sort of "responsible flyer club" that some of us could graduate into where the government would lay off of us because "we got this" and don't need their advice or controls.
@@MrDziuka I live off grid so no heat pump for me. The carbon zero scheme is crazy stupid. This too will go by the wayside like removing hedges. Politicians are dangerous.
Solar electric systems are one of the biggest failures in energy. The graph of the solar plant's production looks like an electrocardiogram recording - it goes up and down minute by minute and hour by hour. You simply cannot rely on that production for any job. You can charge the batteries, it can run the fridge, but that's survival, not life and work. You can also charge an electric car with them, but only if you don't drive it often?! In the neighborhood where you live, it would be interesting to have woodworking machines, but you can't do that with a solar power plant, you need a stable grid. Solar hot water heating is actually the most cost-effective way to use solar, but only in favorable locations. The entire south of Europe uses it, and they wouldn't do it if it wasn't worth it. You can buy the system for under 1000 dollars and heat water for a large number of apartments that you rent out to tourists. Pure profit.
Solar thermal used to be worthwhile in warm climates when solar PV was expensive. It's no longer worth it. You can get solar PV and a diverter to a resistive heater that ONLY uses the solar to heat the hot water and requires no additional grid source. The plus of this is that you get electricity when the hot water has finished heating, which in a lot of the world is done by mid morning. Solar PMV is just so so so cheap it's now CHEAPER than solar thermal in favourable or poor conditions. For loads like hot water a variable load is not a problem. For charging a car, again, not a problem, even if you travel above average. You're only going to run into problems if you need substantial 3 phase motors in places that have no grid backup.
I'm thinking that you're developing your opinions on this based on hypothetical theory and what you've heard others say. Because you're telling someone that's literally run both systems side by side (me) that my experience is... IDK what you're saying. I've actually used both of these technologies and this is my experience. In different areas, sure. But in areas like mine, a system as I have it set up here isn't that functional. With a MUCH larger hot water storage tank perhaps the performance could be improved. But as these systems are sold, here in my area, I've actually used them, and they're not very functional. As for your overall "experience" with living off PV, it's not representational of how I "survive (but not live?) here. Solar electric power can be very functional. With the exception of the issues with my solar hot water heater and the strains it puts on the rest of the house, PV alone is all I need to use 95+% of the time. I haven't done the exact math on that percentage, but it's huge how much of my life is all PV powered. And the system will have totally paid for itself after just about 5 years (vs having stayed on the power grid and paying for utility power).
@@PraxisAdventures Maybe your solar power plant can pay for itself in 5 years because electricity is expensive and as I hear the grid is unstable. Where I live, a solar power plant cannot pay for itself 20 years ago because the price of electricity is low. I don't remember when there was a power outage, so that can't be a reason for getting solar either. The average electricity bill for a household is about 30 euros, and if you heat yourself with electricity in the winter, the bill is about 80 euros. Large solar power plants were also built in our country and it was quickly determined that it was a big failure, no one thinks about it anymore. Solar collectors are not very cheap either. A solar power plant of 5 kwh in our country costs 5,000 euros, and a thermosiphon system for heating water for a large number of people costs 1,000 euros. As an energy expert, I claim that solar power plants are a big failure. We are waiting for the American scientists to build a fusion reactor, and they promised that it will be in 15 years maximum! Best regards!
Still Praxis here, just replying from my other account. Yeah, I'm just speaking to my own situation in this video. That's why at the beginning of this video I said that I was only speaking to my own situation. Fusion power might be cool if it's developed (I think we've always been 15 years from having it though haven't we?) We may get there some day, but Id caution enthusiasm on that. While power generation is a source of degradation of our ecosystems, so too are most of the other activities of humans mining, clearing, and generally having their way with the world. At the moment, we as a species are limited by our access to energy... even though we don't seem to act like it most of the time. If we humans ever DO get our hands on UNLIMITED energy... a lot of other issues that we're creating in other ways will suddenly have all the limiting shackles removed and the damage that we'll them be able to release onto our would will be truly massive. It's a rule for humans (it would seem) that the more energy we have access to, the more we use.@@komlenkalpacina311
You appear to have put in an archaic flat plate system, with predictable results. Evacuated tube systems have been available for some time now, and are phenomenally efficient when properly set up, including on overcast days: they actually capture more energy by area than your solar PV plates. They do not require an antifreeze glycol primary circuit, as the water passes only through a lagged header, not through the tubes. And they are simple and inexpensive to install, but do require a degree of understanding. As for the circulation pump (which delivers hot water directly to our hot water cylinder) we put it in the airing cupboard, with the cylinder. I installed a small evac tube setup some years ago and we have never looked back. I should only add that ours is a low pressure off the grid water system with very clean water, both of which make plumbing easy and reliable. I cannot vouch for the durability of the system in high pressure and/or corrosive water situations.
Exactly this!
Evacuated tubes was something I'd asked the installer about (because I'd seen them frequently in the past). I don't recall why they suggested we not go that route. It would NOT have been cost related because at every opportunity I asked them to beef up the system they were installing because I wanted to maximize the chances of it working well. So I can't say why we didn't go that route. Perhaps that was another government mandate that only panels were allowed for some reason? Vacuum tubes are a rather rare sight in my state. Maybe the panel lobby has pushed policy? I really am not sure - other than that I know I brought them up and I know we didn't go that way. It's nice to hear that your tube system works well! Perhaps I look into that and see about replacing my panels when they die someday.
I think part of the problem is that most people have no idea of how the evac tube systems work.They just assume it is a new shape working on the old principals, which it is not: flat plates are just passive collectors, evac tubes are actually heat pumps, the working principals are entirely different. On a hot day they are noticeably cold to the touch, since all the radiant energy striking them is being delivered to the water system.
I just installed my own, and here's something they don't tell you: if you install with the array pitched up at one end on a fairly flat roof (as we did for optimal sun angle) you capture not only heat from above, but heat radiated from the roof, which strikes the back of the tubes. My tubes get a small buildup of dust and pollen down the back of them, and I actually leave that on during the summer months to help limit our water temperatures.
Thanks Bob, that's an excellent depiction of how the system is different. I REALLY wish that I'd not let the installer talk me into the panels. I (again) don't recall exactly what he said that made me opt for the panels, but I DO know that my initial plan was to go for the tubes because (given their being an upgrade over the older-style panels). I really don't recall what they'd said to talk me out of them.
What I CAN say is that, given the fact that I'm almost always heating water with electricity anyhow, it seems that both the tubes AND solar PV are BOTH better than the option that I was pushed into.
Again, I much appreciate your breaking down the tubes function a little more for me - that's interesting.@@bobirving7460
@@PraxisAdventures the thing with the evac tubes is that they normally are used in low pressure systems ak not connected directly to domestic water. But they work great, a frind of mine has a 3m² system here (in El Alto Bolivia, maybe not the best reference be course of the height) and that heats 2000l of water in 3 days to 80 degrees in an more or less isolated tank
I'm not surprised by this post - we have a unit from an RV which diverts electric from the solar when the batteries are full into an an emersion heater that supplies hot water in all but the worse of winter - we have changed routines so we use hot water towards the late afternoon to fit the surplus energy pattern - we have a a back up
Funny, we are afternoon bathers too. The back boiler kicks out the hot water and we need to use the surplus between twelve and two.Just changed our routine to match the system….chuckle.
Yeah, timing showers is a great tool too. I think of summer showers during the daytime as free "use it or lose it" energy. I use a timer on our system too. So the electric heater only can kick on during the middle of the day when there is the best sun. 1.5 hours of electric heating per day is enough to keep the tank hot and ready to use for the evening showers (of 10 mins or less each). Personally, I get mine in in under 5 mins. ;)
I've got solar hot water and it works brilliantly for me, but I do live in the tropics where we get 2 seasons a year - a hot humid summer and a cooler, far less humid summer. My system has 2 flat panels heating water and a large tank all on on a stand. They were on my roof, but I moved them to the top of a water tank (me and a buddy took the system apart, dragged the components up and down ramps made of 5m long planks to move them to the tank and then re-assembled the unit) - when my new roof was installed. It used to have 3 panels feeding the tank, but this made the water extremely hot - I could hear the system boiling water for hours on hot days. Even with just 2 panels, the water is far too hot to put your hand under at any time of the day or night. Even after 5 or so overcast days in a row - which is very rare around here - I still get warm water - not hot, but nice and warm and easily warm enough for shower / bath. The system had an electrical booster hooked up so you could use electricity to heat the water on overcast days, but I didn't need it, so it was disconnected when the solar hot water was moved form roof to water tank.
P.S. I have 13 kW of solar panels on my roof and I love these as well ! Free electricity and I make $100+ per month tax free from the excess electricity I sell back to the grid - even in "Winter". The whole system will pay itself off in 4 years. Wonderful !
Sounds like you have a great setup. I'm sure the tropics makes it a bit easier on this front. I have a friend in Puerto Rico who is always poking (friendly) fun at my channel and I was SURE he was going to be on me for this one. "You're living in the wrong place!" he always says. So I was expecting him to have a very functional system for this at his place. But he actually told me (after watching this video) that he'd been having issues too - but in his case, it's from hurricanes grabbing at the panels in his system and damaging them. That's one thing I made sure of on my system - that the panels would be flat up against the roof. I literally built that shed specifically for the purpose of holding those panels. I figured why build scaffolding when I can put in a little extra effort and get a free shed too. So I designed the roof pitch to match the panels' required angle.
Even in the sub-tropics it worked ok, but no longer worthwhile now that solar PV is so cheap. Because the places where solar thermal works well, the solar PV you could put on your roof these days for the same area / less cost will finish heating your tank by mid morning anyway, then you'd get extra electricity for the rest of the day. Solar PV used to be expensive, so solar thermal was a cheaper way to get hot water, that's no longer the case.
If you let too much heat in through windows you need external shading. For the south (Northern hemisphere) or north (Southern hemisphere) you want big eaves. For east / west you need external shading/awnings. Some building regulations might not recognize non-fixed screens.
I touch on this exact suggestion in the video. I agree with you.
I am in agreement as I have been looking at the same situation for my property. Even with evacuated tubes, I am generating a lot of heat in the summer where there are far less expensive alternatives. 40 years ago, this may not have been the case as the technology for solar electricity was not as robust/efficient.
I have five 4 x 8 flat hot water solar panels. I live in Chicago. I have 13 hot water radiators also. The system is a draining back system, but i only uses distilled water, no glycol'. The 120 gal solar hot water tank has two heat exchangers. One on the bottom for the panels on the roof and one in the middle for the boiler. (on demand hot water) When I bought the system I asked the Guy if I could use the middle heat exchanger for the radiators. He told me no it wouldn't work, but I did it anyway. These panels supplement the heat in my house on a sunny day in the winter. I also use them for heat in the fall and the spring. During the spring and fall it could get too hot in the house because I'm just trying to dump heat in the house for night. I extract the heat into the hot water radiators keeping the system running for a longer period of time. As it's made, it's extracted back out into the radiators.If it's a sunny day, the heat will not come on until about 5 o'clock in the afternoon.You are correct, in the winter time If there's no sun, they don't come on. During the summer time, I am amazed at how often they come on if the sun is not out at all. I've had them for over 20 years and they're still working great. I've had temperatures of 200°. Love them. One of my best investments. We've obviously had two different experiences. I've try to heat water with a 255 W solar panel. It couldn't even warm a 3 gallon bucket. I always say it's an uphill battle trying to heat a hot water with solar electric. I'm not saying it can't be done, but it takes an awful lot of electricity to do it. When I have time I might do a video. I have some videos on my phone where it was like 15 below Fahrenheit and these things were working great. Take care. Sorry to hear about your experience. Somethings wrong.
Thanks for that. Its great to hear that your system works well. You have almost twice as many panels so perhaps that helps yours work better. When my system was proposed they said I could do it with 2 panels or 3 for better performance. If the number of panels is my issue, I can't imagine how poorly it would have run with only the two minimum they suggested. Mine is a drain back system too. If you do that video, let me know at PraxisPrepper@gmail.com and I'll post a link to it for everyone from this video.
Can you explain why distilled water? Does it not freeze? thank you.
Even in Ecuador the solar heaters we installed had an inversion heater installed. It's a give and take. Put the panels in a green house and supplement with wood stove and copper coil. It's about being independent not the cost necessarily.
I've looked into woodstove chimney heat exchangers frequently. Heat around our chimney IS something that's very common all winter long. Not many companies make them though. I think I've only seen one that looked like it was of any quality at all and it's made in Australia.
I heat water with PV resistive with advanced electronics you can't buy. It is amazing how much energy a typical PV system just throws away. I can divert any excess power whether it be 1W all the way up to 1500W. Panels always stay at power point for maximum energy transfer. Doesn't use any battery, charge controller or inverter resources. Standard water heaters with mechanical thermostats have no problem with arc issues. I have three water heaters on a relatively small PV system. Laundry has its own tank and clothes washer uses hot water for all cycles. This is an ideal method which is really cheap to make. The solar world is just so technically illiterate.
Thanks for sharing. There are definitely so many other ways we could approach these goals! :)
New subscriber, I like your honesty.
Thanks Mike. Honesty is definitely my thing. Whenever I do a product review on a product sent to me the companies that sent it usually seem surprised and confused about the delay I suggest in releasing a video due to wanting to actually test products out before telling my audience that they're great... and the companies often times seem even more confused when I tell them that their product has issues that I'll need to be mentioning in the review. Needless to say, while I get plenty of companies approaching me once to test a product, I don't hear back from many of them again for a second product. ;)
What about having hot water solar panels in Florida? Where there’s lots of sunshine most of the year. Would that be Smart?
I'm not sure if that's a rhetorical question. Did you watch the video? Let me know if you're still unsure after watching it. I'm always happy to field questions.
In order for solar hot water systems to be effective, you need MASSIVE insulated water storage tanks above or ideally underground to be a heat battery. The summer time will help charge the heat battery. You pull the heat out of the water and heat the differential for your hot water use and/or for heat in the house during the winter. Really high up front cost. Worth it? Meh. If you have mega bucks to invest, pay cash up front, probably. If you are Joe Blow and need to take out a loan for that, uh uh.
Yeah, I can see that maybe being helpful. But I can see your point on the massive investment vs the return - especially given that there are other cheaper ways to heat the water (like with solar voltaic power).
@@PraxisAdventures Or with wood, bio gas, or waste oil. There are numerous sources of hydrocarbon material that can be used for heat.
Gotta have sun to have solar power. It's a viable option in some places on the planet, but research is needed.
Yeah. I'm just one data point in that research. That said, I'd offer that pretty much anywhere that solar hot water DOES work great would be a totally fine place to just use solar voltaic tech instead. Although in very warm areas, perhaps solar hot water would have a leg up because of the simplicity of the tech (when it's done DIY as a tank on a roof that sits in the sun).
Yeah it definitely depends in the application. Yours kind of looked not black and maybe not quite optimized.
Just for hot water, id probably just get pv panels or use gas.
I have a homemade flat panel system and a larger one im building. I use a heat exchange and convert to heat in WI. I get heat even to like negative temperatures and when its partly cloudy, and i expect to get even more out of about 46 sq ft new system. The existing one is like 19 sq ft.
I have 1000sq ft space and the smaller one heats about 150-200 sq ft at 32 f i can maintain the temperature.
Thanks for the thoughts. This is an ongoing experiment that I'm still tweaking as I go. I'll have an update video as things develop.
You can put a shade to keep out winter sun over the summer months... does your state not know that?
When I suggested that directly to the minion hired by the state to check boxes, he seemed compelled by the idea, but wasn't empowered to do anything with that information in the way of waiving the mandate to install conventional windows.
You should have done the evacuated tubes..
I agree.
Can you replace the hot water panels with normal PV units? It seems the government wouldn't know about it so you could maybe buy some cheaper second hand panels and start producing power that would actually power your water heater.
I totally can do that without any legal issues. The mandate was to install the system - not to maintain it indefinitely. I'm toying with a few approaches to fix the situation. One that I'm eyeing with the most interest is to see if I can re-route the glycol pipes to the chimney of my woodstove. I'd like to either build or buy some sort of chimney heat collector to heat the glycol. The woodstove is always warm all winter, so that'd be a great place to heat water very easily. Perhaps I could build a branching system such that I could send the glycol out to the panels in the summer when it tends to work okay, but send it to the woodstove in the winter.
Long term, as soon as the system has any major issue that requires an expensive fix, it's going to be scrapped for that heat pump system.
Good thinking. It's too bad we can't mandate more of it.@@PraxisAdventures
Where do all the dead batteres go?
That's a big issue with battery tech (and pretty much everything else in our society) isn't it. We just don't prioritize re-use and sustainability as any self-preserving species should.
Solar blankets for swimming pools to charge your home and car.
😂 your thumb nail worked well, tell you wife it was worth it
I'm glad you enjoyed the thumbnail, but I have to admit that it's just an AI created image. I asked leonardo.ai to create an image of "a cabin in the woods with solar panels and a couple in front with a look of fear and an overwhelming sense of aloneness." It took a few tries, but it got the look and feel I was going for.
@@PraxisAdventures oh hahahah well now I just feel like a perve 🤣
LOL! No worries! ;)@@SustainableGal
maybe you should have installed vacuum tube technology
That's a suggestion that I've wondered about myself as well. Not being at all familiar with solar hot water at the time of the install, I deferred to the installers to help me through those decision. I don't recall the discussion about that option, only that we went the way we did. My discussion with them would NOT have hinged on cost. As it was, I asked them to go with the bigger and beefier option at every turn. For example, with the panels, they'd said I could go with a minimum 2 or 3 for added heating, and I went with 3. Had the vacuum tubes been presented as superior by the installer, I'd have gone that way. So I don't recall the specifics.
The installer themselves were great. Very professional, punctual, and their work was top notch. I built my house myself, so I know quality work when I see it (straight lines, well reinforced unions etc.). They did great work in that way. In fact, being a bit uncomfortable with heights, I hired them again to put the metal rails on my main roof for the solar electric system - and was glad that I did because their work was quality and I'm not a fan of heights. Then I installed the panels myself onto their rails.
I subbed- Honest explanation of a system that sucks, yet pushed by the guv, plus, on a lighter note... In the world of Star Trek, Praxis is a Klingon moon that exploded due to more guv exploitation if I remember correctly- it was overmined and typical of some(others may argue 'most') Klingons, safety protocol wasn't exactly a strongpoint LOL
I adopted the name Praxis due to the meaning of the word in the original Greek. It refers to the process of transforming ideas into physical reality. But I've on occasion had it suggested to me that the Klingon moon was the first thing it brought to mind in a viewer or two, and I don't mind that connection at all. I'm a fan of Star Trek, and when I was a kid, Start Trek VI (the film that opens with Praxis blowing up) was a favorite movie of mine.
@@PraxisAdventures I learn the some of the most interesting things here on YT. So it figures that I would know a bit more about 80's pop culture over a bit of good historical Greek knowledge LOL. After your explanation, the name makes very good sense for your channel. Thanks for the response and looking forward to more content from you. Cheers!
I learn so much on here too. A lot of crap, but also a lot of gold! :)@@btchhopperou812
Man, that’s such a buzzkill. Especially in regard to the windows. So what about an electric hot water heater? With the solar panels, that will probably work out good, no?
Right now that's what I pretty much always use - electricity to heat the water. On sunny days that electricity comes from my solar voltaic panels, but on any day that's not totally sunny, the power comes from the local power grid, which is primarily powered by coal. So the state mandates prevented me from having more solar electric power and forced me to have to keep going back to the coal powered grid.
All that said, this IS an easy problem to solve. All one needs to do is:
1 - Have plenty of solar voltaic panels. I think 10kw of them would work just fine almost all the time.
2 - swap the heating element in the water heater to be smaller. I have a 5kw heating element and that DOMINATES the entire system when it comes on. I have the entire system on a time so it only clicks on for 1 and a half hours per day (around noon when the sun is best). If I could swap to a 2kw heating element and just have it run 2 or 3 times as long, then the power drain would be less "earth-shattering" whenever that thing clicks on. It's a big thing. Every day around 11am, I need to assess the sun sitch and manually decide whether to switch back to grid power if the sun isn't full enough to hold the 5kw heating element. If I'd had a smaller heating element, then the drain would be spread out more evenly throughout the day.
3. Consider a heat pump system for the water heating. I don't know the specifics, but in my experience heat pump systems are always more energy efficient than straight heating element systems. AND they give you the free AC.
So this whole problem is actually pretty easy to solve and shouldn't be a buzz kill. The solution is there. The problem is government rules mandating people do something that doesn't make any sense... except for the solar hot water installing industry. That said, I should say that the installer company I hired was great and I have no problems with them. They did a great job. it's just the tech they supply is inappropriate for this location.
i think the hot water panel isn't the problem. u said that it produces heat when its not needed and when it is needed it doesn't produce heat. that sounds more like a suply and demand problem that can be solved by adding a heat storing device like a salt hydadtes battery ar a phase change battery. the first one can stor heat for a very long time with zero het loss.
I agree. If the system used a heat storage device that could store more heat to last between effective sun-warming days, it'd work better. Although that said, another effective option would be to just heat on demand with PV power. No moving parts and simpler overall system. But your point is correct, if the system could store more heat, it'd resolve some of the issues.
Thanks for this information, i will not use it here in Canada :-)
Definitely look into other people's experiences aside form mine too. Maybe other people have slightly different setups that work better. Mine is only one data point.
Land of the Free?
Only in rhetoric.
Unrelated to passive solar, you look like Christian Bale as Gorr the God Slayer.
I've gotten that from time to time. Him and Ryan Gossling usually.
Thermal solar Vacuum tubes is the way to go. You 4 times the energy per areal with thermal heating instead of going via electric. Maybe hate your planning - not the tech.
I haven't experienced vacuum tubes. So I can't comment on the performance of that approach. My inclination is that the vacuum aspect of the design (and their diminished surface area in general) would help to greatly minimize that constant heat loss I mention that vexes these panel system technology (which is the tech I have the issue with at my location).
Those vacuum tubes are going out of style since pv panals are 1/4 the cost they used to be. when the batteries are full, dump power into heating water.
That's exactly what I do now. When the sun is up, I manually flip on the electric element in the tank (it's on a timer to only go on during the peak of the day, but can be manually over-ridden). We pump power into the water as long as the batteries can hold out and then switch back as they weaken. It's not a great way to do it (manually). If I can replace out the heating element with a lower power element, the solar panels should be able to hold it even with only mild-moderate sun without my having to manually flip back and forth to avoid over-taxing the system with the 5kw heating element.@@2legit2quuit
Or Maybe DON'T TELL the government your building a house
In practice, living in a town, that can be easier said than done. That said... my area doesn't have any building permit procedure for root cellars. I was told to just go ahead and build without a permit by the inspector. Makes one think that maybe underground "root cellar" homes could be an interesting no permit way to go.
Just because you could doesn't mean you should. It sounds like to much time was spent looking at subsidies and tax credits and not enough on the technologies. If the technology is available and not banned then it is a case of getting what you pay for.
It sounds like you were only half paying attention to the video. Sorry for the swipe, I often only half pay attention to videos to while I'm doing something else too.
No, this wasn't a case of my ignorantly choosing a technology without the proper research. This was a case of the government telling me that I HAD to use this specific technology or I wouldn't be allowed to build my home. The government picked the winner here, not me. Had I been given an option back at the time of construction, I'd definitely NOT have gone with solar hot water panels - if only for the fact that they have more moving parts and points of failure in them vs PV alone.
Why do you say you were "forced" by the govt? You weren't "forced" into anything. That sounds like doublespeak for not wanting to admit your own failure.
That's a nice way of asking that question. It's both polite AND helps to advance the conversation. There's an answer to your question, and I'm happy to share it, if you ask it using your polite grown up voice.
You say "where you are" it doesn't work. Remind us, where are you? Northeast, I thought?
Yeah, Northeast USA. I didn't sweat being specific in the video, because what's important is the sort of weather in someone's area. I think equatorial areas would likely make more sense because the ambient temp is pretty warm anyhow, so the cloud cover isn't going to strip heat away too fast when the clouds go by. But in my region (and those similar) I just don't think this tech makes sense to use (let alone mandate by law).
Just cover them with solar panels... government comes take them off
I'm actually free to do whatever i want now. I just need to install and show it was installed to get an occupancy permit. There's no obligation on me to use it forever. My only question is exactly how I transition away from it, and when I begin the transition.
@@PraxisAdventures thank God the genius technocrats don't still hound you. Only the people that live on the land can decide their fate!
Compostable diapers for babies and adults
Sounds like you live some where with too much government intervention. I live in Scotland and I abhor being told what to do with my own home.
Wait until we'll be imposed by new rules about heat efficiency and meeting ,, carbon zero " thingy. They will tell you to put the heat pump in the old stone cottage. There is already a rule that you can't put windows in above some certain size.
I live off grid so they can’t get me. And being a user of wind and solar….they are great unti the wind stops blowing or the sun stops shining….then I am using dirty diesel.
@@MrDziuka can’t fix the stupidity of government.
We have a green government here in Germany, they're an absolute incompetent nightmare
I've been reading a book about micro hydro power recently and if I recall correctly, I think that parks of the British Isles were specifically mentioned as being regulation hell when it comes to setting up micro hydro power. Preexisting setups were torn down in favor of large scale government projects that burned fossil fuels etc. I personally understand that regulations DO have upsides. I almost moved to a different state in the US until I found out that there were no regulations about people burning trash. So the neighbors could (and were) burning their trash and the smoke was able to be smelled almost a mile away. I didn't end up moving there. So I get that some ability for people to be able to control people who are irresponsible and dangerous to those around them... but on the flip side, it really stinks to be someone who DOES act responsibly and to have to bend knee to these things. I felt a lot of this during covid too. I was one of those "dangerous" people who weren't too keen on testing the new vaccines out on myself or my family. Society really tried to marginalize people like me. I was criticized by so many people over that decision too. And today almost to the person, everyone I know that did the "responsible" thing and got the vaccine ended up getting (and in most cases spreading) covid, and I've still managed to avoid getting it ever (or any other cold or flu since then either).
So yeah, I wish there were some sort of "responsible flyer club" that some of us could graduate into where the government would lay off of us because "we got this" and don't need their advice or controls.
@@MrDziuka I live off grid so no heat pump for me.
The carbon zero scheme is crazy stupid. This too will go by the wayside like removing hedges.
Politicians are dangerous.
Solar electric systems are one of the biggest failures in energy. The graph of the solar plant's production looks like an electrocardiogram recording - it goes up and down minute by minute and hour by hour. You simply cannot rely on that production for any job. You can charge the batteries, it can run the fridge, but that's survival, not life and work. You can also charge an electric car with them, but only if you don't drive it often?! In the neighborhood where you live, it would be interesting to have woodworking machines, but you can't do that with a solar power plant, you need a stable grid.
Solar hot water heating is actually the most cost-effective way to use solar, but only in favorable locations. The entire south of Europe uses it, and they wouldn't do it if it wasn't worth it. You can buy the system for under 1000 dollars and heat water for a large number of apartments that you rent out to tourists. Pure profit.
Solar thermal used to be worthwhile in warm climates when solar PV was expensive. It's no longer worth it. You can get solar PV and a diverter to a resistive heater that ONLY uses the solar to heat the hot water and requires no additional grid source. The plus of this is that you get electricity when the hot water has finished heating, which in a lot of the world is done by mid morning. Solar PMV is just so so so cheap it's now CHEAPER than solar thermal in favourable or poor conditions. For loads like hot water a variable load is not a problem. For charging a car, again, not a problem, even if you travel above average. You're only going to run into problems if you need substantial 3 phase motors in places that have no grid backup.
I'm thinking that you're developing your opinions on this based on hypothetical theory and what you've heard others say. Because you're telling someone that's literally run both systems side by side (me) that my experience is... IDK what you're saying. I've actually used both of these technologies and this is my experience. In different areas, sure. But in areas like mine, a system as I have it set up here isn't that functional. With a MUCH larger hot water storage tank perhaps the performance could be improved. But as these systems are sold, here in my area, I've actually used them, and they're not very functional.
As for your overall "experience" with living off PV, it's not representational of how I "survive (but not live?) here. Solar electric power can be very functional. With the exception of the issues with my solar hot water heater and the strains it puts on the rest of the house, PV alone is all I need to use 95+% of the time. I haven't done the exact math on that percentage, but it's huge how much of my life is all PV powered. And the system will have totally paid for itself after just about 5 years (vs having stayed on the power grid and paying for utility power).
@@PraxisAdventures Maybe your solar power plant can pay for itself in 5 years because electricity is expensive and as I hear the grid is unstable. Where I live, a solar power plant cannot pay for itself 20 years ago because the price of electricity is low. I don't remember when there was a power outage, so that can't be a reason for getting solar either. The average electricity bill for a household is about 30 euros, and if you heat yourself with electricity in the winter, the bill is about 80 euros. Large solar power plants were also built in our country and it was quickly determined that it was a big failure, no one thinks about it anymore. Solar collectors are not very cheap either. A solar power plant of 5 kwh in our country costs 5,000 euros, and a thermosiphon system for heating water for a large number of people costs 1,000 euros. As an energy expert, I claim that solar power plants are a big failure. We are waiting for the American scientists to build a fusion reactor, and they promised that it will be in 15 years maximum!
Best regards!
Still Praxis here, just replying from my other account. Yeah, I'm just speaking to my own situation in this video. That's why at the beginning of this video I said that I was only speaking to my own situation. Fusion power might be cool if it's developed (I think we've always been 15 years from having it though haven't we?) We may get there some day, but Id caution enthusiasm on that. While power generation is a source of degradation of our ecosystems, so too are most of the other activities of humans mining, clearing, and generally having their way with the world. At the moment, we as a species are limited by our access to energy... even though we don't seem to act like it most of the time. If we humans ever DO get our hands on UNLIMITED energy... a lot of other issues that we're creating in other ways will suddenly have all the limiting shackles removed and the damage that we'll them be able to release onto our would will be truly massive. It's a rule for humans (it would seem) that the more energy we have access to, the more we use.@@komlenkalpacina311