7:15 "Flat earthers' exhibit it?" I'm so tired of you people who think you know where you live. Why don't you head over to Nathan Oakley, and find out, why, "Earth is measured, flat" th-cam.com/video/blYAFWOg3lE/w-d-xo.html
Go to the camping shop, not to the forest! *Buys a tent. Now go to the forest! Mythvision: LoL contradiction, cuz first he said don't go, then he said do go lolz. ...
I agree with a lot of what’s being said but I don’t think “everyone needs salvation from death…” at the hands of Yahweh. Other cultures had their own religious beliefs about death and their own gods. It’s not weird to believe that the Jewish people would have a Jewish law for Jews with Jewish messiahs offering a Jewish salvation surrounded by the destruction of the Jewish temple. New converts to the apostles would’ve been converting to Judaism cuz there was no such thing as Christianity right. So is it possible that both are true at different levels? That an end did come according to the scriptures but not everything so it’s just a half failed prophecy.
As someone with a Master's degree in World History and a published scholar myself, Dr. Carrier is the most thoroughly convincing scholar I have ever read. If you have never read any of his books, please do, and you will very quickly see what real scholarship looks like. He presents an argument, addresses the best of opposition arguments and systematically dismantles them over and over and over and over again. His writing style is akin to death by a thousand gouges.
Richard Carrier's theology is rooted in Christ Myth Theory and while at the very roots I do agree with the that the Bible is mythology - his interpretation of scripture is hugely flawed because he fails to see the Hebraic nature of the Bible from start to finish. Its easy to say Jesus is false but if you cant find a proper scriptural paradigm to debate against Christians, they arent gonna leave Christianity any time soon. @@pleasereadyourholybook2116
IO is Full Preterism + Two House Theology and concludes the story was only ever about ancient Israel, ending with only the 144k going to heaven at the end of the story. The take away is that it was never about outsiders and that Yahweh was a mythological ancient near eastern tribal deity that was only concerned about the elect (chosen) of Israel. I can see why Carrier calls them word walls. The aim is to show how the writers used the words.
Wrong David...... Read Acts 13. Paul addresses the children of Abraham AND God-fearing Gentiles. Then he goes to preach outside the synagogue to all pagans. He does the same in Acts 14 and Acts 17. All over the place he preaches to pagans without asking them if they were ex-Israelites. And you know that Full Preterism has no answer for the 1000 years. They say the 1000 years began on the cross...big problem...the 1000 years began with the beast thrown into the lake of fire. The beast only was punished in AD70. Therefore the 1000 years began in 70AD. Why did Jesus come with the 144,000 only? It was because Israel was judged in 70AD. No other nation was judged in AD70. But in Revelation 20, you see one more judgment at the end of the 1000 years when satan is loosed to deceive the nations. That is when the old heaven and earth will be destroyed - the entire world will be judged. In the 1000 years, the nations are being saved by faith in Christ. AD70 was Israel's judgment (Revelation 1-19). The future judgment is in Revelation 20. The new heaven and earth is in Revelation 21-22. Believe in Jesus to be saved...there is no other way for salvation.
@@MatteoSimeone22 If the 1000-years long period became in 70 CE, then that means that it ended in 1070 CE. However, nothing has changed since then; so, it seems that you're wrong.
@@MatteoSimeone22 If the 1000-years long period became in 70 CE, then that means that it ended in 1070 CE. However, nothing has changed since then; so, it seems that you're wrong.
Always interesting. I learn so much from Richard. He’s brilliant. The only thing that detracts is the “music” in the introduction. It’s horrible. I had to fast forward. That racket almost kept me from listening to this. It is beneath the dignity of the topic.
@@danieljliverslxxxix1164 He has himself always been a SJW "listen and believe" kind of guy, so it kind of serves him right. I wonder how that medicine tastes.
Their travels only work if the earth is the unmoving center of the universe. The firstborn, of the Hebrews, is Aries (at the spring equinox). Their adversary, the firstborn of the Egyptians, is Libra (at the autumn/fall equinox). In discussing the Israelites, perhaps we should begin with the four sons of Ham (Jupiter) and they are Leo, Virgo, Libra, and Scorpio. In this instance, Leo, the firstborn of Ham, leads the summer constellations.
@@harveywabbit9541 Magog and Gog = Venus (Cirrus, Cyrus) and Mars (Crispus, the warrior )= the Twin; barack (Ursus maior) and Sisera (Osiris, Sirius). Their father is the snake-bearer (Ophiuchus, Quirinus), Paulus (his planet is Saturn), Jupiter is Tiberius (Ceasar) . Quirinus assistent is Quirinius (Cepheus, Kefas) who is married into the family through his wife Pompeia Paulina (Cassiopeia), M.M. . Saphira or Procula. They parent (Jair and his wife) their daughter Dorcas (Andromeida) the queen of the south. The bride of the persian hero-prince (Perseus). Like Ophichius (Zacharias Barachias) is up-heaven (elevated , martyred) so must be the Son of (the) Man; Cornelius grandson.
@@spaceisalie5451 h wabbit and w pasterkamp are trolling you by employing the very tactics Dr Carrier explained. assertions without evidence, or facts that have nothing to do with the subject
Dr. Carrier talks about context yet believes the Bible is myth and forged in many places, so what point is there in talking about context? 🤦♂️🤷♂️🙅♂️
@@MythVisionPodcast have fun with your never ending mess of speculations, forgeries and such. AIO is the clear cut and consistent view. Romans 11:26, Rev 7:4 can't be beat.
Minute 37. 👍👍 It is *Soo*, so difficult to remember that gospel B was meant to replace gospel A and C, and not sit aside them like 3 chapters in a book, as if they were created to give concordance writers something to do. Old habits die hard. Excellent!👍
Thanks for interviewing Richard Carrier. His research was my path out of the Christian Religion. Been out for two years. Your discussion on how Christianity was invented is helpful in understanding how I got trapped in it as a young teenager 45 years ago.
I don't think IO should want to butt heads with historians, they should take on the literalist theologians. My respect is equal opportunity all around. I'd like to know why Carrier doesn't hold much stock in the astro view of these "religions" ? As a historian I should expect he is fully aware that archaeologists have found zodiacs in every single first century synagogue that has been uncovered and this fact should tell us a multitude about what they were teaching and believing in the first century.
We've chatted before, Joyce...hope you're well. I've just been starting to read some astral-theology pieces, and find it quite fascinating. Would you mind posting a couple links to some good articles?
@@AAwildeone There is an article I think it is called the gospel in the stars you can prob google it. There are a lot more books on this topic than people are aware of. Oh here it is. solarmythology.com/index.htm peace
Great discussion, thanks. I thought the point that the gospels were arguing against each other, with the later ones intended to replace the earlier ones, was particularly important. That doesn't get kept in mind enough. What time is the debate with MacDonald?
Dr. Carrier is the leader amongst the new class of historical Jesus debaters. His academic usage of historic text and context is incredible. I make sure to send him money from time to time as I can. What a steal! I get a college education for pennies. I am going to have to sign up for Patrion for Derek now too. You do a great job D! Truly impressed with your growth in knowledge.Thanks for keeping this going. Chad
Flatties, IO proponents, and Hebrew Israelites are very much alike. They are fanatic, condescending, arrogant, and unscholastic/unscientific. It can be quite entertaining to have a conversation with them (from time to time) and laugh at their ridiculous beliefs but after a certain point you start developing an allergic reaction to them. I've now lost interest in IO. Please have Richard on your podcast more often. His work is both fascinating and brilliant.
Just watching this for, I think, the first time. Great episode! Just bought "Why I'm not a Christian"...twice -- Bought it on Amazon Japan, but turns out my digital content is connected to the US store...so bought it again haha The lengths to which sects go to intentionally read new meaning into ancient texts is impressive, actually. I remember back at UBC in Canada, one of the guys on our floor got sucked into a christian cult -- The Navigators -- and he told me he had to study all the time with them as they literally did pesher readings (now I know what it's called, but back then we'd just say they'd be 'reading into' what the bible said). I've never believed and never will...and it seems impossible to me that any educated adult could get sucked into this garbage who wasn't born into it. Yet, I've now lost 2 good friends, both science guys actually. So what you're doing here is really important work! Thanks!
@@MythVisionPodcast I understand fully, but they're all great scholars and have a wealth of knowledge when it comes to the New Testament. I myself is an agnostic when it comes to the historicity of Jesus and values Dr. Dennis MacDonald scholarship.
I'm glad you got Carrier on the show. I've commented in his blog about James 1:1. And it's clear that James were addressing observant Jews. I tend to view James using synecdoche as a part for a whole. As Isaiah 2-10 seem to imply the people of Judah as Israel. Carrier mentioned death , it seem the author of Romans 8 related "death" to being carnal minded and being spiritual minded life. That doesn't seem to imply the physical body death. That renewing of the mind is the transformation to new life in Christ. To some resurrection wasn't physically, but a spiritual awaking. Similar to how Daniel 12:2 speaks of those being awaken as those who received knowledge. Dan. 11:33, 12:10. We don't at large see the remaining Apostles going to the nations and preaching the gospel, that's were Paul comes in and even then not a large number receiving the gospel. Paul said he himself had carried the gospel to every creature under heaven. The church in Jerusalem didn't at first seem interested in preaching to the Gentile abroad. They were about the Jewish population abroad among the synagogues.
Hi Derek Lambert. I guess this is your conclusion to Israel only. I stand firm in saying this book as a story is tribal in its full nature. Yes true many writers but one narrowtive that narrowtive points to all Israel saved at the end
Israel = Saturn, the castrated god. Jacob wrestled with god (his genitals) and became a eunuch and is given the name Israel aka Saturn. Then god the rod impregnates Rachel (Ewe/Aries) with Benjamin (Libra).
Believing we live on a plane or flat earth equates to having a mental illness… seriously?…to me the preterist and flat earth view ( not flat earth society) makes the most sense …you’d do well to research it properly before insulting people
The New Testament is post-Pauline, post-Gentile, etc, but that doesn't mean the original ground zero movement had any notion of targeting Gentiles for conversion. They couldn't have or else Paul wouldn't have had to ask permission to do it. Jewish Messianism, in itself, was quintessentially and explicitly nationalistic, not universal. The Messiah wasn't supposed to "save" the other nations, he was supposed to subject them to Jewish rule. I don't believe any would-be Messiah ever would have or could have claimed to have been a savior for Gentiles.
IO preterism falls apart even if the world ended for them in 70 A.D. There are New Testament stories of Gentiles being saved who were not of Israel. The centurion who’s servant was sick (Mt 8:8), Cornelius the Roman and his family in Acts 10, the Ethiopian eunuch whom Philip saved and baptized (Acts 8). This is without even getting into Paul’s writings.
The biblical chief eunuch is still in the heavens, we call him Sagittarius as he is the first of the four months of winter (tripartite division of year). Philip, the lover of horses, goes very well with the horsie in Sagittarius. A famous name for this horsie is Nahor the snorter. Nahor is the winter son of Terah aka Terra aka Earth, the center of the universe which is unmoving or at rest aka Noah.
@Non Bel_Eever i would suggest that you not look at the scripture in this manner. youre making Jesus’ words superior to Paul’s, but any good theologian will tell you: they are of the same spirit.
What makes most sense to me is the cosmic Christ needed to be brought down to earth and fleshed out. That made it much more salable to the Greeks and Romans who were more accustomed to that kind of religion. A Jesus-in-the-heavens figure just did not compete as well in the marketplace of the time. People would say, why should I believe such pie in the sky? ... it sounds like a bunch of fluff to me. So Mark said, ok guys, here's something you can all get your teeth into -- a HUMAN Jesus. Ok, everybody happy? "Yes, we LOVE it." Kthxbye.
Read the “Social-Science Commentary on the Letters of Paul” by Bruce J. Malina and John J. Pilch. These guys are not IO, but they understand that the first century Jesus movement was an Israelite messianic apocalyptic movement, and the gospel was primarily for Israel - to the Judean first, and then to the Greek (Hellenized uncircumcised Israelites). Non-Israelites joined the movement also, but they were not the focus of the mission. Paul’s mission was to minority Israelite (Judean and Greek) communities living among majority non-Israelite communities. Christianity was not some new religion in the first century. Over time, non-Israelites became the majority within the Jesus movement and things changed. Modern day Christianity can trace its roots back to the council of Nicaea.
The Jews, the Greeks and the Gentiles: Who are they? By Jeff A. Benner As the gospel of Yeshua's message was spreading throughout the land, mostly documented in the book of Acts, three people groups are mentioned; the Jews, the Greeks and the Gentiles. Unfortunately due to misinterpretations and mistranslations of the text, there is a lot of misunderstanding over who these people are. The Gentiles The Greek word ethnos (Strong's #1484) literally means "nation." This word is used in the 2,000 year old Greek Septuagint to translate the Hebrew word goy (Strong's #1471), which also means "nation." A nation is any group of people living and working under one rule. Many different nations are mentioned in the Bible including; the Canaanites, Egyptians, Moabites, Arameans, and others. But more importantly even Israel is called a "nation." And I will make of thee [Israel] a great nation (goy)... (Genesis 12:2, KJV) ... and of good report among all the nation (ethnos) of the Jews... (Acts 10:22, KJV) Translating the Greek word ethnos in the New Testament as "gentile" is problematic. While the word "gentile" does mean "one belongs to a tribe or clan," it has come universally mean a non-Jew. But as we have seen, the words goy and ethnos do not mean a non-Jew, they mean "one who belongs to a tribe or clan." Who are the ethnon (nations - plural of ethnos) mentioned in the New Testament? I am sure that most people are familiar with the "ten lost tribes" from the northern "nation" of Israel that was taken into captivity by the Assyrians in the eighth century B.C. It is believed by most that these "ten lost tribes" are "lost," but this is not exactly true, at least not in the sense that most people assume. And there was one Anna, a prophetess, the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Asher... (Luke 2:36, RSV) The tribe of Asher is one of the "ten lost tribes," but as we can see, Anna, from the tribe of Asher, is not "lost." The "lost" tribes are not "lost" in the sense of "missing," but in the sense of walking away from the teachings of Yahweh. Even Yeshua mentions that his mission was to reach the "lost" tribes and commissions his disciples to do the same. But he [Yeshua] answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel. (Matthew 15:24, KJV) But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. (Matthew 10:6, KJV) Even James mentions that he is a servant to the "twelve tribes," which would include the "ten lost tribes." James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting. (James 1:1, KJV) When Paul preached to the "nations" in the Book of Acts, he was doing what Yeshua commanded, preaching to the "lost" tribes, the lost goy/ethnos of Israel. The Greeks The book of Maccabees, one of the books of the Apocrypha, tells the story of the Jewish Revolt about 150 years before the time of the New Testament. The Greeks, led by Antichus Epiphinus, conquered the land of Israel and forced the Jews to leave their national heritage and the Torah and begin following the Greek culture. Because of the Jews hatred for all things Hellenistic, including the culture and language, Judas Maccabee lead the revolt against Antichus Epiphinus destroying the Greeks and slaughtering those Jews that had adopted the Greek language and culture. This revolt demonstrates the Jewish hatred of the hellistic culture and the incorrect assumption that the Jews freely adopted the Greek language during the time of the New Testament. This divide between the Jews who remained faithful to the Torah and the Jewish culture, and those who rejected the Torah and adopted the Greek culture continued to exist into the first century A.D. The Jews that adopted the Greek culture and language were called Hellenes (Oxford Greek Dictionary) The word Hellenes is the word used in the New Testament, where it is usually translated as "Greek," but sometimes "Gentile," but does not refer to native "Greeks," but to Jews who have adopted the Greek culture and language. The Jews The Jews, in contrast to the Hellenists, are those Jews that remained faithful to the Torah and rejected the Greek culture and language. Proselytes Only mentioned four times in the New Testament are the "proselytes" (Matthew 23:15, Acts 2:11, 6:5 and 13:43). The word proselytes is a transliteration of the Greek word proselutos, which means a "stranger" or "foreigner." These are non-Jews, what we would call today "gentiles" that have joined Israel and follow Yahweh and his teachings. The Greek word proselutos is used in the Septuagint to translate the Hebrew word geyr, which also means a "stranger" or "foreigner," a non-Israelite. It was not uncommon for foreigners (geygrimo join Israel, and many of them came out of Egypt with Israel. When Israel came out of Egypt, it was not just Israelites who came out, but a multitude of others. And the LORD gave the people favour in the sight of the Egyptians, so that they lent unto them such things as they required. And they spoiled the Egyptians. And the children of Israel journeyed from Rameses to Succoth, about six hundred thousand on foot that were men, beside children. And a mixed multitude went up also with them; and flocks, and herds, even very much cattle. (Exodus 12:36-38, KJV) The Israelites journeyed from Rameses to Succoth. There were about six hundred thousand men on foot, besides women and children. Many other people went up with them. (Exodus 12:37,38) These foreigners were to be treated the same as the Israelites. The alien living with you must be treated as one of your native-born. Love him as yourself, for you were aliens in Egypt. I am the LORD your God. (Leviticus 19:34) "You are to have the same laws (mishpat) for the alien and the native-born. I am the LORD your God." (Leviticus 24:22) Even Paul in the New Testament understood this and recognized that anyone could join Israel, just as they did in ancient times. That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world. (Ephesians 2:12, KJV) Conclusion We now have a clearer understanding of these four people groups; 1. The Jews: The observant Jews who reject the Greek culture and language. 2. The Hellenists: The Jews who adopted the Greek culture and language. 3. The Nations: The Jews from the ten lost tribes. 4. The Strangers: Non-Jews who join themselves with the Jews.
Why the dislike against IO? The earliest Christian sects were Judeo-Christians that saw Paul as corrupting their religion by allowing gentiles. They had John the Baptist and James in high regard.
"Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise. During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less, in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry, and persecution." James Madison
Personally, I couldn't care less about avoiding cessation of life. Not entering hell is what I want. If you are not under the law, you are under your conscience. The new testament takes a lot out of context, that is true. The new testament is a spiritual book, not a contextual book.
The insanity that Richard mentions I see a lot from orthodox Christians in regard to me being a unitarian Adoptionist. I really try sometimes, but even the best of them will often do this. It's like a broken robot... I mean, what's wrong with just saying that you don't know something? What's wrong with saying that you take something on faith? Seriously, what's wrong with that?
you overlooked the talents parable Who burries the talents in the ground or leases to others, YHWH designer has anticipated such in the loss to others who try pushing the spiritual talents envelope. That is wat the Twelve distinguished from the fellow hebreans, and they were forced to test it on gentiles and among the diaspora hellenized hebreans for that matter, bcs of Acts 5 verdict. So to speak, you loose the exclusive firstborn privikige and are forced to share the given lands plus those not yet received ( afterlife heavenly kingdom share).
@@jjamaya im confused about IO. Is it your belief that you aren’t involved in the tribes, covenant, etc and so you’re damned or are you not involved in the tribes, covenant, etc and so you’re saved?
Richard Carrier, maybe for tiny projects, people could promise to buy one of your books, read it, recommend it to people who are likely interested, write a review on the site, and donate the book to their local library
My first reaction to this was surprise and anticipation I was getting to get to hear what Dr. Carrier was thinking; although what I really wanted to hear was an in depth discussion of his latest book. IO is not something that has much interest for me. Nevertheless, I always want to hear what Dr. Carrier has to say about anything; so I persevered and was not disappointed. A couple of things caught my attention. Carrier makes a definite statement that the books of Ezra, Jeremiah and Nehemiah were written specifically to be relevant for a brief time only and cannot be applied to any time period before or after. This made me think how I have always regarded those books as compilations of material that were gathered over a rather long time span and were possibly not even written by anyone named Jeremiah, Ezra and Nehemiah. The second point concerns Paul. Carrier seems adamant that Paul definitely existed and that he produced his authentic letters in the 6th decade of the common era (or just before). This leaves me wondering how his thesis would be affected if Paul was actually a much more complex figure? What if Paul produced the basic text of his letters at that time, but Marcion later added to and rewrote much of them for his own purposes? What if there WERE no authentic Paul letters, but Marcion wrote all of them? Also, since Mark made heavy use of Paul's letters, that would make the time table for Mark's gospel very different from what we now suppose. Mark would have used Marcion's work, and the Gospel of Mark would have to be dated sometime during the early 2nd century. Also, my very first reaction seeing Derek and Richard in wool hats and all covered up was, wow, those guys look cold. Can't they afford to heat the room? I need to send them some money, for sure.
I don’t know much about Israel Only Preterism, but there are some elements that I think are relevant. Prophecies described the messiah providing salvation for a limited number of Israelites. Jesus was a Jew. He taught salvation for Jews. Paul never met Jesus. Paul is the one who evangelized gentiles. Now you could argue that Paul was a prophet like the others before him, but I find it more likely that Jesus was for the Jews. With that said, IO will say that because of this we aren’t beholden to any of the commandments but we’re still saved. I would argue that only a couple hundred thousand Jews were saved and they were saved when Jesus returned from the dead, the rest of us are damned. I don’t believe this, but I think it’s both more plausible than IO and evangelical Christianity.
The World of NT and OT Biblical Scholarship is a vast ocean. I do not think Derek and Richard have any idea. Of course this is because they are committed to their own presuppositions and those presuppositions will not allow them to search outside what they are presupposing and looking for.Of course everyone does the same thing as the knowledge pool in the 21st Century is overwhelming. In a certain sense, they are no different than Jason Decosta, except perhaps a lot nicer!
Jews are NOT the House of Israel, they are of the House of Judea; but ARE members of the WHOLE House of Israel. We know who the Jews were. They were the two tribes of the Southern Kingdom of Judea. They are called in Scripture as, “The House of Judea.” A small portion that were taken into captivity returned and were there. There is a clear distinction between them and those of the Northern Kingdom which, among other things, are called, “The House of Israel.” When referring to all 12 tribes Scripture calls that, “The WHOLE House of Israel.” After the Assyrian captivity, we are never told that any of the captives from the Northern Kingdom or, “The House of Israel,” returned, or at least in any numbers. Everyone knows those 10 tribes were taken captivity, perhaps lost their identity and sort of disappeared. HOWEVER, prophecy talks about the WHOLE House of Israel participates in those yet future prophecies. That being the case (and if you don’t know what I’m talking about then do the investigation yourself), Jesus had already preached to the House of Judea but the Gospel needed to also be preached to the House of Israel that prophecy may be fulfilled. We don’t know where these tribe went or who they are, but there is good evidence that they were known back then. That is who Jesus was telling them to seek out, i.e., The House of Israel. I don’t follow any group or movement on this. I’ve gotten this straight out of Scripture. I have no idea what other doctrines whatever group being talked about here. IO crowd? This is a famous case of Aristotelian categorization taken to absurdity. What I’ve said is called a hypothesis and is limited only to the narrow question that it is dealing with. We create an hypothesis to explain as much of the data (in this case scriptural references) that it can. The hypothesis that rectifies the most of the data and creates the least amount of anomalies wins. Bringing in all these extraneous doctrines to disprove the existence of two tribes is foolishness; and having two people who already agree discuss it is self-referential and just silly.
IO views Jewish as converts. Ashkenazi jews Genesis 10 not even Semantic. Yiddish being greek in ancient hebrew script. They view gentiles as Israelites among nations who nolonger kept the covenant. It was a racist response to a racist religion. Often said Judaism the religion was not Israelites the ethnicity. I believed it all. Once upon a time. It's Batman Vs Superman... fiction vs fiction
Ok, just switched over to this account to join the channel. I'm a low-level Patreon of Dr. Carrier, but decided to join the channel here so I can get involved with some questions during live streams. Love the work you do, Derek!!
@1:22:23 This is funny, in one of his readings Ricahard argued that Act is a myths., and here he seems to argue that Paul actually preached in the Stoa. I think that when Paul really preached at the Stoa, he would not get any more attention then a modern streetpreacher shouting his message in front of the busstation. How much notice does the passing public take of someone doing that. Very little busy catching a bus or going to work. Would Paul however be proper introduced into a community by someone he knew and who the community knew his preaching would have been effective especaly when that comminity already cherished familiar thoughts had there doubts, question or unease with the regular beliefs. very few people at ease with their beliefs take up a new religion from a complete stranger.
I recently came across the preterist view. When reading Matthew 24 Luke 21 and Mark 13 as reading audience relevance I was shocked. I no longer could believe the original way it was taught...geez. I also couldn't get on board with the preterist view. Leaves me stuck in a hole. Then seeing Jesus is warning about AD 70 and the destruction of the temple along with a horrific bloody ending appeared to be closing up the old covenant. The violence predicted but not stopped by the one who came to save them destroyed me. The definition given for love in the bible doesn't fit. I was 41 when I became a believer. I changed nothing about myself yet everything inside me changed....this happened before I heard a sermon or read a word in the bible. I went back to the Catholic church but said God if this is it I can't come. I ended up attending a Calvary chapel where they taught verse by verse. I couldn't believe this whole other world existed. Twenty six years later seeing such division and disagreement about what is true in Scripture has brought me to this exit point. I can't deny the presense of God but I just don't believe the truth is in the scriptures. When I searched the word about what hell is it doesn't even exist as in eternal conscious torment. I was let go from a fellowship just for questioning it. Just not sure where that leaves me. That's my little ramble. Thanks for this. It's a lot to take in.
Pretty sure Richard is falling into the trap of Salvation vs Redemption. While the words are often used liberally, the context if each is unique and specific. Context is key. Regardless of the word used, we must look at what's said in terms of spiritual Redemption from HaAdam abomination vs physical Salvation from the impeding doom.
Given that Matthew, Luke, and John are basically bad versions of Mark, and Paul is one step removed from Jesus, is the IO theory tenable? If only Mark is considered, could IO be viable? If we remove the forgeries from Mark, can we make the case?
One minute in ; the scattered elect is the Twin banned to their hideout, the forbidden gathering place at the endings of the world ; the four corners what at the same time determines the centre of the world ; Rome that rules all the peoples. Ma'jui and Ja'jui (the magician and the handyman, the rulers of this aeon) like the pope they claim to be in the centre. In the first century this claim was heritaged by the Germanicus branch of the J.- C. dynasty ; the 'Paulinians' or Nazoreans or Chrestians, from sabian origin. The tribe of the sabines considered decendants from the East, even a lost tribe of the israelites. The man of the East (Philo) or the warrior, the beloved weapon-bearer or Cornett = Israel. The three pillars (orions belt) compare Qurinus (saturn), Cyrus (Venus) and Crispus (Mars). Paul (James the Less), John (the corned Kornett or the baptizer) and James (the Just, the tsaddik, the crown-bearer).
If the people making oversized comments on the article are unable to even attempt responding to the arguments in it, it might be due to a low reading comprehension level. This sounds funny, so I'm going to have to read it myself.
I agree with carrier hear you start to show people that when they're trying to drive that religion down your throat and they get defensive I like little children and just puff up. They get angry with you would start repeating the same nonsense over and over and over again
Michael Hudson would argue that it is not salvation from "death" but from "debt." This is probably consistent with the lecturer who had on recently regarding the money changers.
I don't know why Mythvision videos get a thumb down when he presenting information to the public. You don't have to agree with the information research it and debunk it with your information and sources.
@@MythVisionPodcast Thank you for the reply Derrick. In general I was talking about all the videos you present to us. It's up to us to continue to do the research on the information we agree with and disagree with to learn for our self. Keep bring the information.
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7:15 "Flat earthers' exhibit it?" I'm so tired of you people who think you know where you live. Why don't you head over to Nathan Oakley, and find out, why, "Earth is measured, flat" th-cam.com/video/blYAFWOg3lE/w-d-xo.html
Could you imagine a 4 way debate between the authors of the Gospels. It would end with each calling the others heretics.
Or all of them sucking up to each other desperate not to be found out as a plagiarist and fraud.
@@andredunhos4097 Haha!! That is hilarious! Like the chummy ecumenical conferences they have today. 👍😉
@Mark Mitchell based on? I mean aside from wishful thinking
not only that, they would also accuse each other of copyright infringement.
It did.
Good program Dr carrier
Go to the camping shop, not to the forest!
*Buys a tent.
Now go to the forest!
Mythvision: LoL contradiction, cuz first he said don't go, then he said do go lolz.
...
I agree with a lot of what’s being said but I don’t think “everyone needs salvation from death…” at the hands of Yahweh. Other cultures had their own religious beliefs about death and their own gods. It’s not weird to believe that the Jewish people would have a Jewish law for Jews with Jewish messiahs offering a Jewish salvation surrounded by the destruction of the Jewish temple. New converts to the apostles would’ve been converting to Judaism cuz there was no such thing as Christianity right. So is it possible that both are true at different levels? That an end did come according to the scriptures but not everything so it’s just a half failed prophecy.
Where have you been Richard? I’ve missed you!
Oh my god. I just love Richard Carrier. He is amazing. This person is like an earthquake to Christianity.
Well said! He is ..
Some of Christianity. It's pretty tough to disregard the textual, historical, and archeological evidences of the bible.
As someone with a Master's degree in World History and a published scholar myself, Dr. Carrier is the most thoroughly convincing scholar I have ever read. If you have never read any of his books, please do, and you will very quickly see what real scholarship looks like. He presents an argument, addresses the best of opposition arguments and systematically dismantles them over and over and over and over again. His writing style is akin to death by a thousand gouges.
Not exactly so. Dr. Richard Carrier's interpretation of the Bible is a Greco-Roman world view
@@jonathanyeong324Exactly, and since the New Testament is the product of the Graeco-Roman world, his points hit home that much more than others.
Richard Carrier's theology is rooted in Christ Myth Theory and while at the very roots I do agree with the that the Bible is mythology - his interpretation of scripture is hugely flawed because he fails to see the Hebraic nature of the Bible from start to finish.
Its easy to say Jesus is false but if you cant find a proper scriptural paradigm to debate against Christians, they arent gonna leave Christianity any time soon. @@pleasereadyourholybook2116
Dr Carrier a pure legend! Derek a great interviewer with a great knowledge Bank too.
Love the vids.
IO is Full Preterism + Two House Theology and concludes the story was only ever about ancient Israel, ending with only the 144k going to heaven at the end of the story. The take away is that it was never about outsiders and that Yahweh was a mythological ancient near eastern tribal deity that was only concerned about the elect (chosen) of Israel.
I can see why Carrier calls them word walls. The aim is to show how the writers used the words.
The twelve tribes (constellations) go through 12 positions every 12 months.
Wrong David......
Read Acts 13.
Paul addresses the children of Abraham AND God-fearing Gentiles.
Then he goes to preach outside the synagogue to all pagans.
He does the same in Acts 14 and Acts 17.
All over the place he preaches to pagans without asking them if they were ex-Israelites.
And you know that Full Preterism has no answer for the 1000 years.
They say the 1000 years began on the cross...big problem...the 1000 years began with the beast thrown into the lake of fire.
The beast only was punished in AD70. Therefore the 1000 years began in 70AD.
Why did Jesus come with the 144,000 only? It was because Israel was judged in 70AD.
No other nation was judged in AD70.
But in Revelation 20, you see one more judgment at the end of the 1000 years when satan is loosed
to deceive the nations.
That is when the old heaven and earth will be destroyed - the entire world will be judged.
In the 1000 years, the nations are being saved by faith in Christ.
AD70 was Israel's judgment (Revelation 1-19).
The future judgment is in Revelation 20.
The new heaven and earth is in Revelation 21-22.
Believe in Jesus to be saved...there is no other way for salvation.
@@MatteoSimeone22
The word Israel means Saturn and time. This is the angel who gives life and takes it away.
@@MatteoSimeone22 If the 1000-years long period became in 70 CE, then that means that it ended in 1070 CE. However, nothing has changed since then; so, it seems that you're wrong.
@@MatteoSimeone22 If the 1000-years long period became in 70 CE, then that means that it ended in 1070 CE. However, nothing has changed since then; so, it seems that you're wrong.
Why does everybody wear a wooly hat indoors??
Fashion statement
Its good to hear Richard Carrier, another of my favorite people to listen to.!
Richard, your a wealth of actual information on this important topic. Thank you so much !
Always interesting. I learn so much from Richard. He’s brilliant. The only thing that detracts is the “music” in the introduction. It’s horrible. I had to fast forward. That racket almost kept me from listening to this. It is beneath the dignity of the topic.
Richard Carrier turned into a Gangster? WTF? I'm so confused.
anyway thank God for Richard Carrier
It looks like neither one of them has heat lol
@Islayman Accused is not convicted, but leftists forget that.
@@danieljliverslxxxix1164 He has himself always been a SJW "listen and believe" kind of guy, so it kind of serves him right. I wonder how that medicine tastes.
HOLY SHIT. I was literally just thinking to myself about how similar the hebrew Israelites were to flat earthers. They argue in the exact same ways.
Their travels only work if the earth is the unmoving center of the universe.
The firstborn, of the Hebrews, is Aries (at the spring equinox). Their adversary, the firstborn of the Egyptians, is Libra (at the autumn/fall equinox). In discussing the Israelites, perhaps we should begin with the four sons of Ham (Jupiter) and they are Leo, Virgo, Libra, and Scorpio. In this instance, Leo, the firstborn of Ham, leads the summer constellations.
@@harveywabbit9541 Magog and Gog = Venus (Cirrus, Cyrus) and Mars (Crispus, the warrior )= the Twin; barack (Ursus maior) and Sisera (Osiris, Sirius). Their father is the snake-bearer (Ophiuchus, Quirinus), Paulus (his planet is Saturn), Jupiter is Tiberius (Ceasar) . Quirinus assistent is Quirinius (Cepheus, Kefas) who is married into the family through his wife Pompeia Paulina (Cassiopeia), M.M. . Saphira or Procula. They parent (Jair and his wife) their daughter Dorcas (Andromeida) the queen of the south. The bride of the persian hero-prince (Perseus). Like Ophichius (Zacharias Barachias) is up-heaven (elevated , martyred) so must be the Son of (the) Man; Cornelius grandson.
@@harveywabbit9541 Do you have any videos you recommend with this info?
@@willempasterkamp862 Do you have any videos you recommend with this info?
@@spaceisalie5451 h wabbit and w pasterkamp are trolling you by employing the very tactics Dr Carrier explained. assertions without evidence, or facts that have nothing to do with the subject
Dr. Carrier talks about context yet believes the Bible is myth and forged in many places, so what point is there in talking about context? 🤦♂️🤷♂️🙅♂️
Rocking intro! Also, thanks for getting Dr. Carrier to demolish this concept. I'm glad you've discussed IO, but I hope this kind of puts it to bed.
💤💤💤 I'm done with them
@@MythVisionPodcast really Derek?
@@MythVisionPodcast have fun with your never ending mess of speculations, forgeries and such. AIO is the clear cut and consistent view. Romans 11:26, Rev 7:4 can't be beat.
your growing fast man. i hope it keeps going.
Minute 37.
👍👍 It is *Soo*, so difficult to remember that gospel B was meant to replace gospel A and C, and not sit aside them like 3 chapters in a book, as if they were created to give concordance writers something to do. Old habits die hard. Excellent!👍
IO does to Christianity/Judaism, what Ancient Aliens peeps do to the Babylonian Mythos.
Thanks for interviewing Richard Carrier. His research was my path out of the Christian Religion. Been out for two years. Your discussion on how Christianity was invented is helpful in understanding how I got trapped in it as a young teenager 45 years ago.
I don't think IO should want to butt heads with historians, they should take on the literalist theologians. My respect is equal opportunity all around. I'd like to know why Carrier doesn't hold much stock in the astro view of these "religions" ? As a historian I should expect he is fully aware that archaeologists have found zodiacs in every single first century synagogue that has been uncovered and this fact should tell us a multitude about what they were teaching and believing in the first century.
We've chatted before, Joyce...hope you're well. I've just been starting to read some astral-theology pieces, and find it quite fascinating. Would you mind posting a couple links to some good articles?
@@AAwildeone
You may also want to check out some of Micah Dank videos and books
@@AAwildeone There is an article I think it is called the gospel in the stars you can prob google it.
There are a lot more books on this topic than people are aware of.
Oh here it is.
solarmythology.com/index.htm
peace
@@joyceruserious7920 thanks for those Peace, and Cheers!
@@AAwildeone
Sure, no problem
glad you like
peace
Is anyone interested in having Dr . Carrier write a critique of Roman Provenance Theory? I gather he has said it borders on the absurd.
just kickin it in my 'pro-wings'👟 👟 and listening to mythvision like an 80's Christian
💥💥💥💯
Great discussion, thanks. I thought the point that the gospels were arguing against each other, with the later ones intended to replace the earlier ones, was particularly important. That doesn't get kept in mind enough.
What time is the debate with MacDonald?
That will be my next release
Thanks.
“The death of preterism” really? This interview did nothing of the sort. Sorry
Exactly! it was a bunch of nerdy talk by a below average scholar who's position has a minority view among his peers.
Dr. Carrier is the leader amongst the new class of historical Jesus debaters. His academic usage of historic text and context is incredible. I make sure to send him money from time to time as I can. What a steal! I get a college education for pennies. I am going to have to sign up for Patrion for Derek now too. You do a great job D! Truly impressed with your growth in knowledge.Thanks for keeping this going.
Chad
Flatties, IO proponents, and Hebrew Israelites are very much alike. They are fanatic, condescending, arrogant, and unscholastic/unscientific. It can be quite entertaining to have a conversation with them (from time to time) and laugh at their ridiculous beliefs but after a certain point you start developing an allergic reaction to them. I've now lost interest in IO.
Please have Richard on your podcast more often. His work is both fascinating and brilliant.
@Non Bel_Eever Romans 11:26 & Rev 7:4 can't be beat. IO wins every time 🏆
@Non Bel_Eever yeah it's most likely a fable, but it's an Ancient Israel only fable about them, not us.
Just watching this for, I think, the first time. Great episode! Just bought "Why I'm not a Christian"...twice -- Bought it on Amazon Japan, but turns out my digital content is connected to the US store...so bought it again haha The lengths to which sects go to intentionally read new meaning into ancient texts is impressive, actually. I remember back at UBC in Canada, one of the guys on our floor got sucked into a christian cult -- The Navigators -- and he told me he had to study all the time with them as they literally did pesher readings (now I know what it's called, but back then we'd just say they'd be 'reading into' what the bible said). I've never believed and never will...and it seems impossible to me that any educated adult could get sucked into this garbage who wasn't born into it. Yet, I've now lost 2 good friends, both science guys actually. So what you're doing here is really important work! Thanks!
Why does that guy with the yellow hat act like a childish girl?
Richard looks so young for someone who just turned 51
Good job getting Dr. Carrier on the show. 👍
When one encounters a mind like the people under discussion you want to quit. The phenomenom reveals the fragility of the human mind.
Like hard core Trump supporters. Total cognitive dissonance.
Great show and I would love to see a live discussion with Dr. Richard Carrier and Dr. Bart Ehrman or Tim O'Neill.
I don't think that will be possible
@@MythVisionPodcast I understand fully, but they're all great scholars and have a wealth of knowledge when it comes to the New Testament. I myself is an agnostic when it comes to the historicity of Jesus and values Dr. Dennis MacDonald scholarship.
@btw Buddhism is True What's the real reason Dr. Ehrman don't want to interacts with Dr. Carrier.
Ehrman is intimidated by Carrier and won’t debate him.
Carrier is a goddam force of nature. lol Jason DeCosta.
💯💯💯
I'm glad you got Carrier on the show. I've commented in his blog about James 1:1. And it's clear that James were addressing observant Jews. I tend to view James using synecdoche as a part for a whole. As Isaiah 2-10 seem to imply the people of Judah as Israel.
Carrier mentioned death , it seem the author of Romans 8 related "death" to being carnal minded and being spiritual minded life. That doesn't seem to imply the physical body death. That renewing of the mind is the transformation to new life in Christ. To some resurrection wasn't physically, but a spiritual awaking. Similar to how Daniel 12:2 speaks of those being awaken as those who received knowledge. Dan. 11:33, 12:10.
We don't at large see the remaining Apostles going to the nations and preaching the gospel, that's were Paul comes in and even then not a large number receiving the gospel. Paul said he himself had carried the gospel to every creature under heaven.
The church in Jerusalem didn't at first seem interested in preaching to the Gentile abroad. They were about the Jewish population abroad among the synagogues.
Roger, I would love to chat with you sometime. Could you email me at mythvisionpodcast@gmail.com
Hi Derek Lambert. I guess this is your conclusion to Israel only. I stand firm in saying this book as a story is tribal in its full nature. Yes true many writers but one narrowtive that narrowtive points to all Israel saved at the end
th-cam.com/video/qqtwLC1iULA/w-d-xo.html
Israel = Saturn, the castrated god. Jacob wrestled with god (his genitals) and became a eunuch and is given the name Israel aka Saturn. Then god the rod impregnates Rachel (Ewe/Aries) with Benjamin (Libra).
Believing we live on a plane or flat earth equates to having a mental illness… seriously?…to me the preterist and flat earth view ( not flat earth society) makes the most sense …you’d do well to research it properly before insulting people
The New Testament is post-Pauline, post-Gentile, etc, but that doesn't mean the original ground zero movement had any notion of targeting Gentiles for conversion. They couldn't have or else Paul wouldn't have had to ask permission to do it. Jewish Messianism, in itself, was quintessentially and explicitly nationalistic, not universal. The Messiah wasn't supposed to "save" the other nations, he was supposed to subject them to Jewish rule. I don't believe any would-be Messiah ever would have or could have claimed to have been a savior for Gentiles.
You are right.
He wasn't, Jesus, the Savior
was a Greco-Roman ideology.
Christianity is more a Pauline religion than a Jesus religion unless you’re a Jew.
Yes..unless you convert/join the covenant that's the point.
IO preterism falls apart even if the world ended for them in 70 A.D. There are New Testament stories of Gentiles being saved who were not of Israel. The centurion who’s servant was sick (Mt 8:8), Cornelius the Roman and his family in Acts 10, the Ethiopian eunuch whom Philip saved and baptized (Acts 8). This is without even getting into Paul’s writings.
The biblical chief eunuch is still in the heavens, we call him Sagittarius as he is the first of the four months of winter (tripartite division of year). Philip, the lover of horses, goes very well with the horsie in Sagittarius. A famous name for this horsie is Nahor the snorter. Nahor is the winter son of Terah aka Terra aka Earth, the center of the universe which is unmoving or at rest aka Noah.
im pretty sure the hebrew isrealites say those were actually hebrews or something
@@spaceisalie5451 this kind of inclusionary religiousity is why i left the R.C.C. everybody cant be right all at once.
@Non Bel_Eever this kind of contradicts Ephesians 2:8, wouldn’t you agree?
@Non Bel_Eever i would suggest that you not look at the scripture in this manner. youre making Jesus’ words superior to Paul’s, but any good theologian will tell you: they are of the same spirit.
New Intro! Lmao 😆
Why did " Mark" invent a gospel?
To keep Marcion's merry band at bay.
What makes most sense to me is the cosmic Christ needed to be brought down to earth and fleshed out. That made it much more salable to the Greeks and Romans who were more accustomed to that kind of religion. A Jesus-in-the-heavens figure just did not compete as well in the marketplace of the time. People would say, why should I believe such pie in the sky? ... it sounds like a bunch of fluff to me. So Mark said, ok guys, here's something you can all get your teeth into -- a HUMAN Jesus. Ok, everybody happy? "Yes, we LOVE it." Kthxbye.
@@ardalla535 Amen
Awesome!!!!!!
That was cool.
Read the “Social-Science Commentary on the Letters of Paul” by Bruce J. Malina and John J. Pilch. These guys are not IO, but they understand that the first century Jesus movement was an Israelite messianic apocalyptic movement, and the gospel was primarily for Israel - to the Judean first, and then to the Greek (Hellenized uncircumcised Israelites). Non-Israelites joined the movement also, but they were not the focus of the mission. Paul’s mission was to minority Israelite (Judean and Greek) communities living among majority non-Israelite communities. Christianity was not some new religion in the first century. Over time, non-Israelites became the majority within the Jesus movement and things changed. Modern day Christianity can trace its roots back to the council of Nicaea.
Carrier is really clear on many tricks done within the four gospels.
The Jews, the Greeks and the Gentiles: Who are they?
By Jeff A. Benner
As the gospel of Yeshua's message was spreading throughout the land, mostly documented in the book of Acts, three people groups are mentioned; the Jews, the Greeks and the Gentiles. Unfortunately due to misinterpretations and mistranslations of the text, there is a lot of misunderstanding over who these people are.
The Gentiles
The Greek word ethnos (Strong's #1484) literally means "nation." This word is used in the 2,000 year old Greek Septuagint to translate the Hebrew word goy (Strong's #1471), which also means "nation." A nation is any group of people living and working under one rule. Many different nations are mentioned in the Bible including; the Canaanites, Egyptians, Moabites, Arameans, and others. But more importantly even Israel is called a "nation."
And I will make of thee [Israel] a great nation (goy)... (Genesis 12:2, KJV)
... and of good report among all the nation (ethnos) of the Jews... (Acts 10:22, KJV)
Translating the Greek word ethnos in the New Testament as "gentile" is problematic. While the word "gentile" does mean "one belongs to a tribe or clan," it has come universally mean a non-Jew. But as we have seen, the words goy and ethnos do not mean a non-Jew, they mean "one who belongs to a tribe or clan."
Who are the ethnon (nations - plural of ethnos) mentioned in the New Testament?
I am sure that most people are familiar with the "ten lost tribes" from the northern "nation" of Israel that was taken into captivity by the Assyrians in the eighth century B.C. It is believed by most that these "ten lost tribes" are "lost," but this is not exactly true, at least not in the sense that most people assume.
And there was one Anna, a prophetess, the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Asher... (Luke 2:36, RSV)
The tribe of Asher is one of the "ten lost tribes," but as we can see, Anna, from the tribe of Asher, is not "lost." The "lost" tribes are not "lost" in the sense of "missing," but in the sense of walking away from the teachings of Yahweh. Even Yeshua mentions that his mission was to reach the "lost" tribes and commissions his disciples to do the same.
But he [Yeshua] answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel. (Matthew 15:24, KJV)
But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. (Matthew 10:6, KJV)
Even James mentions that he is a servant to the "twelve tribes," which would include the "ten lost tribes."
James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting. (James 1:1, KJV)
When Paul preached to the "nations" in the Book of Acts, he was doing what Yeshua commanded, preaching to the "lost" tribes, the lost goy/ethnos of Israel.
The Greeks
The book of Maccabees, one of the books of the Apocrypha, tells the story of the Jewish Revolt about 150 years before the time of the New Testament. The Greeks, led by Antichus Epiphinus, conquered the land of Israel and forced the Jews to leave their national heritage and the Torah and begin following the Greek culture. Because of the Jews hatred for all things Hellenistic, including the culture and language, Judas Maccabee lead the revolt against Antichus Epiphinus destroying the Greeks and slaughtering those Jews that had adopted the Greek language and culture. This revolt demonstrates the Jewish hatred of the hellistic culture and the incorrect assumption that the Jews freely adopted the Greek language during the time of the New Testament.
This divide between the Jews who remained faithful to the Torah and the Jewish culture, and those who rejected the Torah and adopted the Greek culture continued to exist into the first century A.D. The Jews that adopted the Greek culture and language were called Hellenes (Oxford Greek Dictionary)
The word Hellenes is the word used in the New Testament, where it is usually translated as "Greek," but sometimes "Gentile," but does not refer to native "Greeks," but to Jews who have adopted the Greek culture and language.
The Jews
The Jews, in contrast to the Hellenists, are those Jews that remained faithful to the Torah and rejected the Greek culture and language.
Proselytes
Only mentioned four times in the New Testament are the "proselytes" (Matthew 23:15, Acts 2:11, 6:5 and 13:43). The word proselytes is a transliteration of the Greek word proselutos, which means a "stranger" or "foreigner." These are non-Jews, what we would call today "gentiles" that have joined Israel and follow Yahweh and his teachings.
The Greek word proselutos is used in the Septuagint to translate the Hebrew word geyr, which also means a "stranger" or "foreigner," a non-Israelite. It was not uncommon for foreigners (geygrimo join Israel, and many of them came out of Egypt with Israel.
When Israel came out of Egypt, it was not just Israelites who came out, but a multitude of others. And the LORD gave the people favour in the sight of the Egyptians, so that they lent unto them such things as they required. And they spoiled the Egyptians. And the children of Israel journeyed from Rameses to Succoth, about six hundred thousand on foot that were men, beside children. And a mixed multitude went up also with them; and flocks, and herds, even very much cattle. (Exodus 12:36-38, KJV)
The Israelites journeyed from Rameses to Succoth. There were about six hundred thousand men on foot, besides women and children. Many other people went up with them. (Exodus 12:37,38)
These foreigners were to be treated the same as the Israelites.
The alien living with you must be treated as one of your native-born. Love him as yourself, for you were aliens in Egypt. I am the LORD your God. (Leviticus 19:34)
"You are to have the same laws (mishpat) for the alien and the native-born. I am the LORD your God." (Leviticus 24:22)
Even Paul in the New Testament understood this and recognized that anyone could join Israel, just as they did in ancient times.
That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world. (Ephesians 2:12, KJV)
Conclusion
We now have a clearer understanding of these four people groups;
1. The Jews: The observant Jews who reject the Greek culture and language.
2. The Hellenists: The Jews who adopted the Greek culture and language.
3. The Nations: The Jews from the ten lost tribes.
4. The Strangers: Non-Jews who join themselves with the Jews.
Was all of this written by Jeff A. Benner? Can you link to the source?
I will find the direct link when I get a chance.
@@Jeff-fz2sh Thanks.
What is the best argument against preterism?
Why the dislike against IO? The earliest Christian sects were Judeo-Christians that saw Paul as corrupting their religion by allowing gentiles. They had John the Baptist and James in high regard.
"Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise. During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less, in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry, and persecution." James Madison
Personally, I couldn't care less about avoiding cessation of life. Not entering hell is what I want.
If you are not under the law, you are under your conscience.
The new testament takes a lot out of context, that is true. The new testament is a spiritual book, not a contextual book.
The insanity that Richard mentions I see a lot from orthodox Christians in regard to me being a unitarian Adoptionist. I really try sometimes, but even the best of them will often do this. It's like a broken robot... I mean, what's wrong with just saying that you don't know something? What's wrong with saying that you take something on faith? Seriously, what's wrong with that?
you overlooked the talents parable
Who burries the talents in the ground or leases to others, YHWH designer has anticipated such in the loss to others who try pushing the spiritual talents envelope.
That is wat the Twelve distinguished from the fellow hebreans, and they were forced to test it on gentiles and among the diaspora hellenized hebreans for that matter, bcs of Acts 5 verdict.
So to speak, you loose the exclusive firstborn privikige and are forced to share the given lands plus those not yet received ( afterlife heavenly kingdom share).
I'm glad I was never caught up in IO.
Romans 11:26 & Rev 7:4 should be enough to make you become AIO.
@@jjamaya im confused about IO. Is it your belief that you aren’t involved in the tribes, covenant, etc and so you’re damned or are you not involved in the tribes, covenant, etc and so you’re saved?
but wasn't jesus an alien looking for the other aliens among the nations??? aliens of the world unite!!!
The dna tests on Caucasian Jews was hilarious as they say its a race not just a religion someone said thats why their called Jew-ish.
My guess is that someone got burned by a hottie flat earther.
jesus from space reminds me of the carpenter movie prince of darkness. In the movie jesus was a space alien that came to warn everyone about satan.
Love the new music, and when I saw the complete krankery I knew it was DR. Carrier.
Brain turned on . . . lets roll . . . Great intro and guest . . . . love it !!!
Damn, I messed up. I liked it when it had 666 likes and made it 667.
Richard Carrier, maybe for tiny projects, people could promise to buy one of your books, read it, recommend it to people who are likely interested, write a review on the site, and donate the book to their local library
So interesting!
Poo, I was the 666th person that Liked this video.
Richard carrier has the right (biblical) preterism.
So very much appreciate you and what you're doing here. Many thanks.
Bring Jason DeCosta back on.
LMFAO...... 🤣🤣🤣🤣 (I🤡O)
Wow so you banned that guy because of his opinions and your channel is all about opinions.
Who got banned?
These Jesus memes lol
At 50:50 epispasm
Carrier is a joke. Lol
My first reaction to this was surprise and anticipation I was getting to get to hear what Dr. Carrier was thinking; although what I really wanted to hear was an in depth discussion of his latest book. IO is not something that has much interest for me. Nevertheless, I always want to hear what Dr. Carrier has to say about anything; so I persevered and was not disappointed.
A couple of things caught my attention. Carrier makes a definite statement that the books of Ezra, Jeremiah and Nehemiah were written specifically to be relevant for a brief time only and cannot be applied to any time period before or after. This made me think how I have always regarded those books as compilations of material that were gathered over a rather long time span and were possibly not even written by anyone named Jeremiah, Ezra and Nehemiah.
The second point concerns Paul. Carrier seems adamant that Paul definitely existed and that he produced his authentic letters in the 6th decade of the common era (or just before). This leaves me wondering how his thesis would be affected if Paul was actually a much more complex figure? What if Paul produced the basic text of his letters at that time, but Marcion later added to and rewrote much of them for his own purposes? What if there WERE no authentic Paul letters, but Marcion wrote all of them? Also, since Mark made heavy use of Paul's letters, that would make the time table for Mark's gospel very different from what we now suppose. Mark would have used Marcion's work, and the Gospel of Mark would have to be dated sometime during the early 2nd century.
Also, my very first reaction seeing Derek and Richard in wool hats and all covered up was, wow, those guys look cold. Can't they afford to heat the room? I need to send them some money, for sure.
Thanks, excellent as always.
I don’t know much about Israel Only Preterism, but there are some elements that I think are relevant.
Prophecies described the messiah providing salvation for a limited number of Israelites.
Jesus was a Jew. He taught salvation for Jews.
Paul never met Jesus. Paul is the one who evangelized gentiles.
Now you could argue that Paul was a prophet like the others before him, but I find it more likely that Jesus was for the Jews.
With that said, IO will say that because of this we aren’t beholden to any of the commandments but we’re still saved. I would argue that only a couple hundred thousand Jews were saved and they were saved when Jesus returned from the dead, the rest of us are damned.
I don’t believe this, but I think it’s both more plausible than IO and evangelical Christianity.
The World of NT and OT Biblical Scholarship is a vast ocean. I do not think Derek and Richard have any idea. Of course this is because they are committed to their own presuppositions and those presuppositions will not allow them to search outside what they are presupposing and looking for.Of course everyone does the same thing as the knowledge pool in the 21st Century is overwhelming. In a certain sense, they are no different than Jason Decosta, except perhaps a lot nicer!
Jews are NOT the House of Israel, they are of the House of Judea; but ARE members of the WHOLE House of Israel.
We know who the Jews were. They were the two tribes of the Southern Kingdom of Judea. They are called in Scripture as, “The House of Judea.” A small portion that were taken into captivity returned and were there. There is a clear distinction between them and those of the Northern Kingdom which, among other things, are called, “The House of Israel.” When referring to all 12 tribes Scripture calls that, “The WHOLE House of Israel.”
After the Assyrian captivity, we are never told that any of the captives from the Northern Kingdom or, “The House of Israel,” returned, or at least in any numbers. Everyone knows those 10 tribes were taken captivity, perhaps lost their identity and sort of disappeared. HOWEVER, prophecy talks about the WHOLE House of Israel participates in those yet future prophecies.
That being the case (and if you don’t know what I’m talking about then do the investigation yourself), Jesus had already preached to the House of Judea but the Gospel needed to also be preached to the House of Israel that prophecy may be fulfilled. We don’t know where these tribe went or who they are, but there is good evidence that they were known back then. That is who Jesus was telling them to seek out, i.e., The House of Israel.
I don’t follow any group or movement on this. I’ve gotten this straight out of Scripture. I have no idea what other doctrines whatever group being talked about here. IO crowd? This is a famous case of Aristotelian categorization taken to absurdity.
What I’ve said is called a hypothesis and is limited only to the narrow question that it is dealing with. We create an hypothesis to explain as much of the data (in this case scriptural references) that it can. The hypothesis that rectifies the most of the data and creates the least amount of anomalies wins. Bringing in all these extraneous doctrines to disprove the existence of two tribes is foolishness; and having two people who already agree discuss it is self-referential and just silly.
IO views Jewish as converts. Ashkenazi jews Genesis 10 not even Semantic. Yiddish being greek in ancient hebrew script. They view gentiles as Israelites among nations who nolonger kept the covenant.
It was a racist response to a racist religion. Often said Judaism the religion was not Israelites the ethnicity. I believed it all. Once upon a time. It's Batman Vs Superman... fiction vs fiction
You should read Michael Bradley's 45 page refutation of Dr Carrier's theology.
Ok, just switched over to this account to join the channel. I'm a low-level Patreon of Dr. Carrier, but decided to join the channel here so I can get involved with some questions during live streams. Love the work you do, Derek!!
@1:22:23 This is funny, in one of his readings Ricahard argued that Act is a myths.,
and here he seems to argue that Paul actually preached in the Stoa.
I think that when Paul really preached at the Stoa, he would not get any more attention then a modern streetpreacher shouting his message in front of the busstation. How much notice does the passing public take of someone doing that. Very little busy catching a bus or going to work.
Would Paul however be proper introduced into a community by someone he knew and who the community knew his preaching would have been effective especaly when that comminity already cherished familiar thoughts had there doubts, question or unease with the regular beliefs.
very few people at ease with their beliefs take up a new religion from a complete stranger.
I recently came across the preterist view. When reading Matthew 24 Luke 21 and Mark 13 as reading audience relevance I was shocked. I no longer could believe the original way it was taught...geez. I also couldn't get on board with the preterist view.
Leaves me stuck in a hole. Then seeing Jesus is warning about AD 70 and the destruction of the temple along with a horrific bloody ending appeared to be closing up the old covenant. The violence predicted but not stopped by the one who came to save them destroyed me. The definition given for love in the bible doesn't fit. I was 41 when I became a believer. I changed nothing about myself yet everything inside me changed....this happened before I heard a sermon or read a word in the bible. I went back to the Catholic church but said God if this is it I can't come. I ended up attending a Calvary chapel where they taught verse by verse. I couldn't believe this whole other world existed. Twenty six years later seeing such division and disagreement about what is true in Scripture has brought me to this exit point. I can't deny the presense of God but I just don't believe the truth is in the scriptures. When I searched the word about what hell is it doesn't even exist as in eternal conscious torment. I was let go from a fellowship just for questioning it. Just not sure where that leaves me. That's my little ramble. Thanks for this. It's a lot to take in.
Pretty sure Richard is falling into the trap of Salvation vs Redemption. While the words are often used liberally, the context if each is unique and specific. Context is key. Regardless of the word used, we must look at what's said in terms of spiritual Redemption from HaAdam abomination vs physical Salvation from the impeding doom.
Given that Matthew, Luke, and John are basically bad versions of Mark, and Paul is one step removed from Jesus, is the IO theory tenable? If only Mark is considered, could IO be viable? If we remove the forgeries from Mark, can we make the case?
One minute in ; the scattered elect is the Twin banned to their hideout, the forbidden gathering place at the endings of the world ; the four corners what at the same time determines the centre of the world ; Rome that rules all the peoples. Ma'jui and Ja'jui (the magician and the handyman, the rulers of this aeon) like the pope they claim to be in the centre. In the first century this claim was heritaged by the Germanicus branch of the J.- C. dynasty ; the 'Paulinians' or Nazoreans or Chrestians, from sabian origin. The tribe of the sabines considered decendants from the East, even a lost tribe of the israelites. The man of the East (Philo) or the warrior, the beloved weapon-bearer or Cornett = Israel.
The three pillars (orions belt) compare Qurinus (saturn), Cyrus (Venus) and Crispus (Mars). Paul (James the Less), John (the corned Kornett or the baptizer) and James (the Just, the tsaddik, the crown-bearer).
If the people making oversized comments on the article are unable to even attempt responding to the arguments in it, it might be due to a low reading comprehension level. This sounds funny, so I'm going to have to read it myself.
I agree with carrier hear you start to show people that when they're trying to drive that religion down your throat and they get defensive I like little children and just puff up. They get angry with you would start repeating the same nonsense over and over and over again
Carrier should have named the book "Jesus from the heavens" - maybe some Christians would read it by accident.
Ok I know some of y'all gotta know Darth Dawkins, I swear that's who he's talking about.
Richard Carrier, maybe the term you were searching for was “fractally wrong”, altho that may not be literally accurate
If thats what he ment .... WHY DIDN'T HE SAY SO‼️
Michael Hudson would argue that it is not salvation from "death" but from "debt." This is probably consistent with the lecturer who had on recently regarding the money changers.
If you try to explain the supposed Resurrection, you are engaged in
ex-Jesus exegesis
Anyone who dismisses “conspiracy theories “ is a lightweight coward
Hey Derek I hate he did not let you finish what you were about to say about IO assertion on Hosea would of been interesting to hear your take on it.
I disagree with you most of the time, but this time you are absolutely right.
Carrier to the rescue 99 out of 100 times.
I don't know why Mythvision videos get a thumb down when he presenting information to the public. You don't have to agree with the information research it and debunk it with your information and sources.
All the dislikes are from these Israel Only people.
@@MythVisionPodcast Thank you for the reply Derrick. In general I was talking about all the videos you present to us. It's up to us to continue to do the research on the information we agree with and disagree with to learn for our self. Keep bring the information.
because Christians are mean spirited too often.
Derek, you thought you were being funny but Jason's points in the intro actually proved AIO is true.