I still miss you. I often wonder how many others are looking at your back catalog of videos and how relevant they are today. You were and still are a part of my routine.
I do that exact thing man.. Gamers and the games industry in general miss TB badly these days. I do hope he’s in a better place and at peace now. Rest easy Biscuit
9:30 That's probably one of the main problems with Kickstarter on both ends: The misconception that Kickstarter contributions are donations. It might in effect be like that in praxis, but it shouldn't be. Of course there's no guarantee for success, but as you mentioned earlier, there is responsibility. Because if there are no mechanisms in place to supervise a project's progress, then confidence tricks would be even more encouraged. You could just fake a project, tell that unfortunately it failed due to various issues, when in fact you just took the money and spent it for your own pleasure.
Anything that goes up against big game companies is a good idea. I have gotten a few games funded on KS and love it, though it does have many problems now that it has expanded in bad areas.
Both pre-ordering and kickstarting is throwing your money away. Kickstarting isn't any less risky in fact i'd argue it is more. No one should pre-order under any circumstances but kick starter funding is ok is where you lost me. There is a huge issue with game funding particularly with the lack of projected 'release dates'. Some have stayed in alpha/ beta indefinitely. I think your video does provide good information about realistic expectations when thinking about funding a project. Some are just as under handed showing prototypes of what look to be fully fleshed out games but are still in the concept phase.
I backed them on their site and i love the game! Frequent updates, lots of news, good support team etc. I have been burned before on backing and preorders, so are pretty happy with Next Car Game. GO BUY!
Kickstarter to me is donating towards someone's dreams or ideas - I always look at it on 2 levels: 1. What reward tier I would want should the project be completed, 2. How much can I spare to help someone pursue an idea I can willingly support. Some projects I think would be good for the environment, but only have a passing interest in, get a small donation (like Balrum), while others that I'm exceptionally interested in seeing enter the wild, I invest much more in (like Hex)
I am so glad you did this video, too many people seem to think backing a kickstarter project is the same thing as pre-ordering. Honestly, its a problem that is starting to bleed into the minds of even a few devs...
uhhh... the idea with pleaging is that the developers dont have the necessary money to program the game "NOW". they cant make the game and get the money later... they need it "NOW"... and with pledges ... they can get it "NOW"
why in the fuck is someone that is considered "amateur hour" actually providing answers to one of the most important gaming industry's questions so lowly rated. TB keep up the good work. You're only respected by a minority now. You will be the authority in years to come. I'm glad I'm here to see you rise.
TB, the only guy i can listen too while simultaneously getting my work done. I really enjoy these. While I don't always agree with you (I do here) I always enjoy listening to your opinion and how you came to it. Signed - the silent majority.
I love how thought through all of your, 'rants' (in a good way) are, it is always quite nice to listen to a very informed view. -Coming from an aspiring dev
Totally respect your opinion; I only ever pre-order games I 100% know I'd get anyway (GTA V, AC IV, Saints Row IV, Destiny, etc) and I totally respect your opinion. Keep on making your amazing videos, TB!
Preordering doesn't make things happen, but has a money-back guarantee. Kickstarting allows games (and genres!) that would never have happened to have a chance, but it is only a chance and the money is spent in the effort whether it works out or not. Great video, highlighting the dangers but also going through the benefits of Kickstarter.
Just makes me chuckle that someone actually needed an explaination why kickstarter is different from pre-order ;d Nice to hear your thoughts as always Mr.Biscuit.
This is an extremely good video! People need to get the idea out of their heads that Kickstarting makes you an investor. It doesn't. Kickstarter is a very useful and unique thing for gaming projects, I think it will keep going, and kick back up, it's just that people have been rushing for it and thinking that it is a sort of store. Hopefully the proper mindset is established, and it becomes a more stable platform.
I think the desire to do logical leaps and gymnastics is perfectly fine and noble.. It's also what was known in a by-gone age as intellectual discussions. A discipline TB should appreciate, being the gentleman he undoubtedly is.
Personally, the two projects I've funded on Kickstarter have left me pleasantly surprised. I was an early backer of the Gustin jean company and I recently pledged for a copy of Soul Saga, where we get to bounce gameplay ideas back and forth with the dev during streams.
There are three different kinds of Kickstarter game campaigns: - Game development proposals such as Doublefine's Broken Age and Massive Challice; You basically provide venture capital to the dev for salaries and running costs. What it really offers is insight into and some influence on the development of the game. - Game finishing; Basically you pay for a copy with no effect on it. - Game extensions; Kickstarters to fund additions to a game that is already released or far along the dev cycle.
As usual TB hit the nail right on the head. People are treating Kickstarter as a store. If you want a store, wait for the game to actually come out then preorder or buy it. Kickstarter isn't a preorder store service. It's you donating money for a project. They promise you stuff, usually the game itself, in return for doing that, but if the project flops, you most likely won't get that investment back.
Similar question: What do you think about projects like pCars from the Slightly Mad Studios? Also crowd founded, however we have direct contact to the developers via the forum, get up to daily builds of the project. And on top of that, we are getting a revenue of the game sales, when released. IMO it's better for everyone. Developers get within 15 minutes responses if something is good or bad, they can make the games they want to make and the founders even get money back.
Not sure about UK law, but in the USA you can seek that the defendant's wages be garnished to repay any debts. This means that any future income they make, a percentage of that will be required to be put into paying restitution. So, even if someone is broke and you sue them for monetary damages, you might not get all of the money back, but you can attempt to get that money back and potentially get some of it back.
I agree with you about kick starter. I kick started Wasteland 2 and only because it has a reputable developing team. They send out newsletters to keep us up on how the game is coming along and if they're on time and if they're having problems.
Thanks for the suggestions, TB. As a person looking to get into game developing in the future, I will certainly keep what you said about kickstarters in mind if I decide to crowd-source a project, which, I probably will at some point.
@Devver08 it's not idiotic because he's saying you can throw disposable money at games you would like to see made on kickstarter but with preordering the game is (almost) definitely coming out already so there's no need to pay for it early as either way it will still come out and so you may as well wait for it to be released so you can read its reviews. This option isn't available for kickstarter games as it probably won't come out if no one throws their money at it.
Exactly right. TB constantly repeats the 'buyer beware, only if you really want to see the project succeed!' Eg: look at the kickstarter project for the smartphone called the Ubuntu Edge, with a 720p display (so 2011), 128gb storage, and 4GB of RAM, that dual boots ubuntu desktop and Android...and the minimum you must currently contribute is $775. Crazy thing is: if they don't get 32million dollars in a month nobody gets the phone. People have raised 7mill so far...it's extreme buyer beware.
Interesting way to phrase it. I would have said it's based on the idea that the more informed you are as a consumer, the better, and that pre-ordering is usually an emotional response stemming from brand loyalty, fanboyism and successful marketing. Kickstarters, are supposed to be risky. You're donating money to a game in the development stage. But when you make an actual purchase, the smart consumer makes sure his risk is as close to zero as possible.
The few things I have to see before I even consider about backing something on kickstarter are: 1. Demo (or super in depth about the game like what Armikrog did, or a trailer for the game that contains actual gameplay and/or cutscenes to know the people are serious). 2. Breakdown in pricing. 3. The companies reputation I do disagree with one of the preorder things though. With console games usually preordering games costs just as much as new AND it shows how many games a store might order...
Fair enough, I see your point. Personally I don't pre-order, but I do think pre-ordering is a perfectly good way to purchase a game. If you're excited for it and you want to play the latest games ASAP ain't nothing wrong with reserving a copy that'll come with extra bits & bobs. A Colonial Marines pre-order situation happens so rarely, you can't completely dismiss an entire purchasing practice because of a few bad apples. Heck, at least people got to experience that awful game.
The more transparent you are with your projects, the more people will be satisfied that they are making a good decision by providing you with the funds you are being honest with them in how you are using them.
the problem is that the embargo is usually lifted extremely late if the game is bad so reviews cant be published, also kickstarting and pre-ordering are completely different, pre-ordering is the same as buying except you do it with out as much info as after launch but you get a bonus of some kind, kickstarting is pledging money for the development itself. so if you don't pre-order and wait for the game it still come out you just lose the bonus if you don't kickstart the game might not come out.
That's a big difference. A preorder is for a game that is going to be release whether or not you pay for it beforehand. A kickstarter is given to a game that may very well not be released if it doesn't meet a donation level. He's saying that kickstarting is risky but it has a reward(a game that might not be made and that you want it to) but that preordering has no rewards(maybe some kind of small sale price or a digital item) but carries a huge risk as most negative reviews are after release.
Personally I hope that Kickstarter projects like Colossal Kaiju Combat come out. There's a lot of projects that are great ideas that people have started that could use the money. We need good games like those in this world.
I just cant believe that this biscuit never did wtf of Psychonauts. It was in humble bundle, but he actually didn't review it!--damn it is pretty much still one of the best games i ever played, and one of the most underrated games out there.
If the person running the kick-starter is good and reliable you can get some neat stuff as well as a game for a price of a retail game. People need to use their wits before pledging. It's sad people abuse it somtimes but im glad it exists I have seen some beautiful things come out of kickstarter.
I certainly agree that Kickstarter and pre ordering are not entirely mutual. But surely stretch goals ARE. Stretch goals are there to line the developers pocket with spare change prior to release, so that they may add things to their game. But pre orders do the exact same thing. We've seen stretch goals for pre ordering certain games like Tomb Raider. Personally I wouldn't take the chance on kickstarter, but if I did, I wouldn't back a project once it's initial goal was reached.
Mixed honestly, but when it came down to it, it also shows steam there is support there as well. There is more then 1 company that needs to be shown there is interest. What other better what to pre-order a game that's genre hasn't gotten enough official backing for steam to pick It up more often then once and a while as an odd indie project. *There is enough issues with Greenlight as is*
Concrete information about the game from the developer, like descriptions of the game and genre, as I've said. This information tends to go much further and even provides the basis of reviews of the game when reviews are available.
It actually makes a lot of sense to look for the good reviews, because it is easy to see the bad. Not so easy for the good. If someone actually likes a game, they must have a personal reason that will tell you a lot more than the mainstream bad opinion. Hate spreads faster than love, so looking for reasons to like a game is far more worth your time and will really make you think if it is worth the experience. And if the good reviews don't convince you, there you go.
You are probably right. Costs will be at their highest ever to produce AAA titles and will require massive sales to turn a profit. But there will be incredible interest in games now. Sales will also be higher than they have been for the last 5-6 years. It could go either way. It depends on the cost to sales ratio. We're already seeing many developers go tits up.
I made the point a few posts back. "words mean things". I was trying to explain to you the difference between making a purchase and donating to a developer. I eventually got you to see my point. I'm not quite sure what I could have left out and still manage to lead you there.
Games on Kickstarter these times must show ingame videos. It is really difference when you see two artwork or just talking devs and on the other side good impressive actual ingame footage. Kingdom Come: Deliverance reach in two days their goal, RPG, fantastic ingame trailer, devs atd... www.kickstarter.com/projects/1294225970/kingdom-come-deliverance And look at Unsung Story now, RPG, just talking devs, slow pledge process(still good). www.kickstarter.com/projects/482445197/unsung-story-tale-of-the-guardians?ref=discovery
So far I've only backed 6 projects, and in every case it was a project that a) I really wanted to see and b) They already had something to actually show. I think too many things come to kickstarter in a concept or even pre-concept stage when the concepts are not really fleshed out. For the record, the projects I've backed are Dreamfall Chapters Distance Freedom Planet Sir, you are being hunted Maia and Strike Suit Zero As you said, a prototype is perhaps the bet thing to include.
There is a pretty substantial difference between the two actually as TB said.. One you're essentially acting as an investor with some added incentives for something that doesn't even exist yet and has a chance it could fail to even make launch, while the other is buying a product that is for all intents and purposes done and dusted. In essense the difference is the risk involved and if you go in thinking of kickstarter as a pre-order service you're asking for potential disapointment.
When I said that I was talking about 'consoles' as honestly, that's where pre-orders really matter honestly. I think it's 'almost' unneeded to pre-order a PC game *as I've only pre-ordered 2-3 myself (shadowrun returns, Dark souls, & one more I can't recall the other one honestly), though I've only pre-ordered 2 PS3 games I can recall FF13-2 & Dragon's Dogma *which I didn't get because of an X(* v.V :p pre-orders should be upto personal taste.
Very true. They are very different things. Though there is no issue on my side of things where I buy a kickstarter funded game that has released and has gained positive reception from gamers, FTL is a perfect example of this and the recently released Shadowrun Returns looks interesting as well. It's nice to see devs not have to deal with publishers but its not good seeing promises go empty and games never coming out. The nature of Kickstarter and even Indie GoGo is quiet a dark & mysterious one.
Neither of those options are funding the game's development though. The poster i was replying to said a kick start can cost $100,000 to make a game but a pre-order can cost $1 to make a game. Basically he compared the price of CREATING AN ENTIRE GAME to the price of a customer pre-ordering a game.
Oh TotalBiscuit, My TotalBiscuit. Whenever you research something you want, like a video game, you read the bad reviews and look for trends. If everyone says that a game mechanic is broken or that the AI is bunk, you know it's a bad game. But when all of the bad reviews are nebulas or disagree with each other about what is bad, then you can safely assume that the game is not inherently bad.
Sure kickstarter can be good juju or karma, but all in all, pre-orders can give you bonuses as well *nothing close to what a kickstarter can*, but at the end of the day your only paying retail price not donating 100$+ for one title for some crazy level perk *which is fine if you can do that* Though the benefits to a pre-order can be there for those who use it as it was intended to be or just don't want to bother risking if they'll have the spare money, & can be used to coverup a gift 4 a gamer.
Even if some of the production studios failed horribly (it happens in all business and was doomed to happen in this case as well) the main issue is that people just fail to understand how the system works and that the risk of failure always exist. I've participated in a failed project as well but did that stop me from kickstarting more projects? NO because I knew it was going to happen at the outset. There are "safe" projects of course, but anything can and might fail, that's just how it is.
I just played Shadowrun, One best storyline I've played through recently, Nice art style full character, I glad for Kickstater for brining that old school RPG game back, I wish I was able to be one ones that kick started it, but I'm a broke college student again. I glad to see more game in style Baldur gate or fallout coming out, make this old computer gamer happy and we got Kickstarter to thank for that.
I personally view both as follows: -Kickstarter puts you in the shoes of the business man or investor. You have a predetermined goal to fund an operation you believe will sprawl into a flowering bouquet of awesome. For better or for worse the market is a bitch. You have nothing to do but stick with your opinions and hope for the best. -Pre-ordering puts you in the shoes of the consumer. You know mostly what you're buying into and you do it anyway. Also you can get your money back in the end.
@ etheldir my point is that people's problems with pre-orders blossomed from the whole alien colonial marines fiasco which (most will say) was not what they expected. As TB stated, you've no guarantee the kickstarter will A. Even be built to completion or B. Be any good at all. Both marketing schemes are not giving you enough information to truly determine if a game is a good fit for you and is a gamble in *both* instances.
Yeah I have to agree with you TB. When it comes to kickstarter it is essentially like playing the stock market. You are putting an investment down and hoping for a happy return on said investment. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose. So I'd say only invest if you have the money to burn, and you're okay with taking a gamble. Just don't cry about it when it fails.
I look at Kickstarter as a micropayment/microloan version of a VC. It's up to me to do my research and like a VC I do expect a return on my investment but also like a VC there is some risk involved.
When I look at reviews I generally look at the bad stuff first, and of course ignore trolls, and rage. If I'm still interested after that then I go forward.
Carmageddon raised way above its goal of a few hundred thousand, and got an anonymous donation of several million dollars for console releases. The developer immediately showed their working prototype, and have been steadily showing new assets that have been produced.
When you donate money to a kickstarter, there is an understand that whatever project you funded might not get off the ground. Most of the gifts they offer are obviously conditional on the release of the game. You'll actually find that a lot of donation platforms offer gift based incentives to entice people to pledge money. Getting a poppy for giving money to the VFW, getting a new annex named after you for giving money to a hospital and everything in between.
Honestly, I know the differences between pre-ordering a near-finished game and kickstarting one that may not even come out. I can see why people would Kickstart something, but I'd rather sit back and watch. When I want to pre-order a game, I make damn sure I research it as much as I can (not so much reviews as seeing actual gameplay videos, because I could give less of a shit about IGN or Gametrailers reviews, for example) before doing so, so I know I'll get a copy of it one day one.
It's completely different and if, as a consumer, you don't see the difference, then that is your problem. When you donate to kickstarter, you are spending money to help develop a game, not to purchase the game. Your donation may give you access to certain incentives, including a copy of that game if it actually becomes a reality, but that's just a gift they use to entice you to donate. (cont...)
I just want to bring up 2K's quite excellent pre-orders. I'm only basing this on the Steam pre-orders of the two XCOM games (and Bioshock Infinite, I think?), but their pre-order bonuses are usually something like another one of their games. Which is pretty awesome. They are also pretty good at showing their games before they actually come out (they showed countless footage Enemy Unknown being played) and letting game reviewers give their opinions in advance.
In that case you should simply be waiting until the game is already released. That doesn't mean that pre-orders are a bad idea though. For instance, the game currently in development, Starbound, an indie game, fits very well with what I know I like. Therefore, I've pre-ordered that game to help support their development process. In return I will receive a copy of the game when it is released.
These copies are then NON-RETURNABLE copies purchased by the Corporation. That means the Dev (Or Publisher) who makes that benchmark has just sold extra copies which won't be returned via the warehouse due to their pre-order deal with the retailers. The games which have huge Pre-Orders are given special attention by reviewers and extra promotion, that's money in the pocket via advertising. This is similar to a "Bestseller List" and how it operates for books.
Because, I don't want people who do look at these to think this is what others think. He may also just be confused, even though everything I said was mentioned in the video that he clearly didn't watch. At the very least he was confused on what hypocrite meant.
If the only issue was people not estimating their cost effectivily for games, then you just realize the biggest issue with programming stuff in general. Even the simplest ideas and programs take alot longer then most people realize. I am speaking from a bit of experience as I wrote a simple text based adventure with a simplestic combat system and easy to use map. Took me several days and lots of help (insight on how to write important classes) before I got a prototype. Still developing it.
ATLUS games are known for 'limited' runs all in all, and they can run out within 2 weeks easily. Though there are other limited runs as well.*where the store just doesn't have any ability to do anything about it So because there is a special case showing demand for a certain game that showed heavy interest in 'hard' or 'unforgiving' games on the PC,*which btw has spawned loads of games because it was shown the interest is there*it should be thrown out because it doesn't fit your model of things
The thing is with stretch goals for games Tom Raider is that the content is most probably made already with the intention of releasing it if the stretch goal has been passed. In fact, if this was true, it is more a scummy tactic to get more guaranteed sales than spare change because they are holding back finished content.
Great Question! Because again, they're two completely different thing. Pre-ordering is a way to purchase a product. And it's a bad way to purchase a product, compared to your other options. Unlike waiting until the game comes out, pre-ordering gives the consumer no real information about the quality of the game, or if it's going to work correctly. You could be buying a buggy, boring mess, compared to digital download, brick and mortar or having something shipped AFTER its been released....
Haunts The Manse Macabre was a smiller case and it is near to the point to being dead, in other words, cancelled. There is not alot to be done to save that project so even though it also succeeded in it's Kickstarer, not enough was given for it to be made.
In my view, the difference between pre-orders and kickstarters is very simple and hopefully I can show you it. You can always just wait until the game comes out instead of pre-ordering. Nothing will change. You can't bring that same mindset of pre-orders to kickstarter. If you plan on just waiting til the kickstarter is over then the developers might not get enough money, and without the money the product is gone.
Oh, there's another aspect of "fail" here - if the project gets funded but not actually manages to produce it's supposed product. Sorry about my confusion about that.
The way i took it is "If you use kickstarter, you are donating money to a thing you want to exist and hope that it does. There is a risk, but if you care about the idea, it MAY be worth it. If you pre-order, you are committing to buying the game that WILL exist, whether or not the game is actually any good when it comes out. This is a bad move." and then he explains his own criteria for what kind of kickstarter is worth backing if your going to use kickstarter at all.
Or, alternatively, I wait a few days, since if I'm not exactly sure, I can see tons of people doing Day 1 Playthroughs (or, for JRPG's, watch the Japanese version for a bit).
have you watched the video yet? if you pre-order a game before the reviews are out then you're likely to be looking for reviews that prove you right since you already decided that the game is going to be good
Totalbiscuit is absolutely doing some serious mental gymnastics to justify the difference of these two. They're pretty much exactly the same thing, only big difference is that Pre-orders tend to be for games from the massive high budget developers.
I only pre-ordered 3 games and only ordered 2 of them in order to receive the statue figures that came with the collectors edition , after pre-ordering dragon age 2 and seeing its use of the same map area 10 times as a "different area" it made me decide to wait for games to come out and see the bigger picture before ordering it, and unless i just really want a collectiable item that comes with the collectors edition i will not be pre-ording, no stores near me carry collectors edition.
Actually, they never intended to do the board game, at least solely. Erik Chevalier, the guy running it, was just interested in starting up a company, which Kickstarter forbids. So he used the game as a way to sidestep that rule. He also has some major history in terms of failing in financial management. All the money earned would of gone into the company, with whats left for the board game. The actual designer and artists for the game, on the other hand, had no clue that it was even canceled.
Some people pre-order a game with the excuse of supporting the developer, because they were pleased by what or who is related to it, but also getting something in return. Won't be smart if you deny to get these little things that come with pre-order just to prove a point. I enjoy Saints Row 3 that I bought when it was in discount, so I won't bother to show my appreciation by pre-order SR4 and also get some goodies.
I hard coded it. I did not use one of those products designed to make programing a game easier. Its all in Java (I know easiest langauge), and I still want to work on it more, to include an item system and equipment system and a looting system.
Kickstarter should have a black list of develeopers with names...
not like people just make up new studios
I still miss you. I often wonder how many others are looking at your back catalog of videos and how relevant they are today. You were and still are a part of my routine.
I do that exact thing man.. Gamers and the games industry in general miss TB badly these days. I do hope he’s in a better place and at peace now. Rest easy Biscuit
For kickstarter you are an "Investor". Pre-ordering is just a blind consumer purchase.
9:30 That's probably one of the main problems with Kickstarter on both ends: The misconception that Kickstarter contributions are donations. It might in effect be like that in praxis, but it shouldn't be. Of course there's no guarantee for success, but as you mentioned earlier, there is responsibility.
Because if there are no mechanisms in place to supervise a project's progress, then confidence tricks would be even more encouraged. You could just fake a project, tell that unfortunately it failed due to various issues, when in fact you just took the money and spent it for your own pleasure.
Anything that goes up against big game companies is a good idea. I have gotten a few games funded on KS and love it, though it does have many problems now that it has expanded in bad areas.
Both pre-ordering and kickstarting is throwing your money away. Kickstarting isn't any less risky in fact i'd argue it is more. No one should pre-order under any circumstances but kick starter funding is ok is where you lost me. There is a huge issue with game funding particularly with the lack of projected 'release dates'. Some have stayed in alpha/ beta indefinitely. I think your video does provide good information about realistic expectations when thinking about funding a project. Some are just as under handed showing prototypes of what look to be fully fleshed out games but are still in the concept phase.
Next car game failed yet they went on to make a playable alpha and then a steam early access edition
I backed them on their site and i love the game! Frequent updates, lots of news, good support team etc. I have been burned before on backing and preorders, so are pretty happy with Next Car Game.
GO BUY!
Cashman882 Very true
Now do Kickstarter v Pre-order v Early Access?
I guess thats a early version of FTL cause the ships not green in my game...
Kickstarter to me is donating towards someone's dreams or ideas - I always look at it on 2 levels: 1. What reward tier I would want should the project be completed, 2. How much can I spare to help someone pursue an idea I can willingly support. Some projects I think would be good for the environment, but only have a passing interest in, get a small donation (like Balrum), while others that I'm exceptionally interested in seeing enter the wild, I invest much more in (like Hex)
The only games I'm glad I pre-ordered are The Witcher 2: Assassins of Kings and The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim.
I am happy for trying to buy a copy of X-COM two days too early, ended up pre-ordering and got it 10e cheaper, WITH the customization pack.
I am so glad you did this video, too many people seem to think backing a kickstarter project is the same thing as pre-ordering. Honestly, its a problem that is starting to bleed into the minds of even a few devs...
uhhh... the idea with pleaging is that the developers dont have the necessary money to program the game "NOW". they cant make the game and get the money later... they need it "NOW"... and with pledges ... they can get it "NOW"
Yeah, then when game devs squander that money. Have fun =)
why in the fuck is someone that is considered "amateur hour" actually providing answers to one of the most important gaming industry's questions so lowly rated.
TB keep up the good work. You're only respected by a minority now. You will be the authority in years to come.
I'm glad I'm here to see you rise.
Once the devs get the money, there is no incentive to work hard on the game, my opinion
TB, the only guy i can listen too while simultaneously getting my work done. I really enjoy these. While I don't always agree with you (I do here) I always enjoy listening to your opinion and how you came to it. Signed - the silent majority.
I love how thought through all of your, 'rants' (in a good way) are, it is always quite nice to listen to a very informed view.
-Coming from an aspiring dev
Totally respect your opinion; I only ever pre-order games I 100% know I'd get anyway (GTA V, AC IV, Saints Row IV, Destiny, etc) and I totally respect your opinion. Keep on making your amazing videos, TB!
Preordering doesn't make things happen, but has a money-back guarantee. Kickstarting allows games (and genres!) that would never have happened to have a chance, but it is only a chance and the money is spent in the effort whether it works out or not.
Great video, highlighting the dangers but also going through the benefits of Kickstarter.
Just makes me chuckle that someone actually needed an explaination why kickstarter is different from pre-order ;d Nice to hear your thoughts as always Mr.Biscuit.
This is an extremely good video! People need to get the idea out of their heads that Kickstarting makes you an investor. It doesn't. Kickstarter is a very useful and unique thing for gaming projects, I think it will keep going, and kick back up, it's just that people have been rushing for it and thinking that it is a sort of store. Hopefully the proper mindset is established, and it becomes a more stable platform.
I think the desire to do logical leaps and gymnastics is perfectly fine and noble.. It's also what was known in a by-gone age as intellectual discussions. A discipline TB should appreciate, being the gentleman he undoubtedly is.
Personally, the two projects I've funded on Kickstarter have left me pleasantly surprised. I was an early backer of the Gustin jean company and I recently pledged for a copy of Soul Saga, where we get to bounce gameplay ideas back and forth with the dev during streams.
Maaaaaaan, didn't notice before but having FTL's music in the background is really very soothing. ^_____^
There are three different kinds of Kickstarter game campaigns:
- Game development proposals such as Doublefine's Broken Age and Massive Challice; You basically provide venture capital to the dev for salaries and running costs. What it really offers is insight into and some influence on the development of the game.
- Game finishing; Basically you pay for a copy with no effect on it.
- Game extensions; Kickstarters to fund additions to a game that is already released or far along the dev cycle.
As usual TB hit the nail right on the head. People are treating Kickstarter as a store. If you want a store, wait for the game to actually come out then preorder or buy it. Kickstarter isn't a preorder store service. It's you donating money for a project. They promise you stuff, usually the game itself, in return for doing that, but if the project flops, you most likely won't get that investment back.
Similar question: What do you think about projects like pCars from the Slightly Mad Studios?
Also crowd founded, however we have direct contact to the developers via the forum, get up to daily builds of the project. And on top of that, we are getting a revenue of the game sales, when released. IMO it's better for everyone. Developers get within 15 minutes responses if something is good or bad, they can make the games they want to make and the founders even get money back.
Not sure about UK law, but in the USA you can seek that the defendant's wages be garnished to repay any debts. This means that any future income they make, a percentage of that will be required to be put into paying restitution. So, even if someone is broke and you sue them for monetary damages, you might not get all of the money back, but you can attempt to get that money back and potentially get some of it back.
This is a PC gaming channel. Apologies if that content doesn't cater to your interests, but I'm sure that there are other channels that do, elsewhere.
you are truly youtube's #1 game critic. nice video.
I agree with you about kick starter. I kick started Wasteland 2 and only because it has a reputable developing team. They send out newsletters to keep us up on how the game is coming along and if they're on time and if they're having problems.
Thanks for the suggestions, TB. As a person looking to get into game developing in the future, I will certainly keep what you said about kickstarters in mind if I decide to crowd-source a project, which, I probably will at some point.
@Devver08 it's not idiotic because he's saying you can throw disposable money at games you would like to see made on kickstarter but with preordering the game is (almost) definitely coming out already so there's no need to pay for it early as either way it will still come out and so you may as well wait for it to be released so you can read its reviews. This option isn't available for kickstarter games as it probably won't come out if no one throws their money at it.
I like how you both pay attention to the video.
Exactly right. TB constantly repeats the 'buyer beware, only if you really want to see the project succeed!'
Eg: look at the kickstarter project for the smartphone called the Ubuntu Edge, with a 720p display (so 2011), 128gb storage, and 4GB of RAM, that dual boots ubuntu desktop and Android...and the minimum you must currently contribute is $775.
Crazy thing is: if they don't get 32million dollars in a month nobody gets the phone.
People have raised 7mill so far...it's extreme buyer beware.
Interesting way to phrase it. I would have said it's based on the idea that the more informed you are as a consumer, the better, and that pre-ordering is usually an emotional response stemming from brand loyalty, fanboyism and successful marketing.
Kickstarters, are supposed to be risky. You're donating money to a game in the development stage. But when you make an actual purchase, the smart consumer makes sure his risk is as close to zero as possible.
The few things I have to see before I even consider about backing something on kickstarter are: 1. Demo (or super in depth about the game like what Armikrog did, or a trailer for the game that contains actual gameplay and/or cutscenes to know the people are serious). 2. Breakdown in pricing. 3. The companies reputation
I do disagree with one of the preorder things though. With console games usually preordering games costs just as much as new AND it shows how many games a store might order...
Fair enough, I see your point.
Personally I don't pre-order, but I do think pre-ordering is a perfectly good way to purchase a game. If you're excited for it and you want to play the latest games ASAP ain't nothing wrong with reserving a copy that'll come with extra bits & bobs.
A Colonial Marines pre-order situation happens so rarely, you can't completely dismiss an entire purchasing practice because of a few bad apples. Heck, at least people got to experience that awful game.
The more transparent you are with your projects, the more people will be satisfied that they are making a good decision by providing you with the funds you are being honest with them in how you are using them.
the problem is that the embargo is usually lifted extremely late if the game is bad so reviews cant be published, also kickstarting and pre-ordering are completely different, pre-ordering is the same as buying except you do it with out as much info as after launch but you get a bonus of some kind, kickstarting is pledging money for the development itself. so if you don't pre-order and wait for the game it still come out you just lose the bonus if you don't kickstart the game might not come out.
That's a big difference. A preorder is for a game that is going to be release whether or not you pay for it beforehand. A kickstarter is given to a game that may very well not be released if it doesn't meet a donation level.
He's saying that kickstarting is risky but it has a reward(a game that might not be made and that you want it to) but that preordering has no rewards(maybe some kind of small sale price or a digital item) but carries a huge risk as most negative reviews are after release.
TB you should do more debating videos,it's interesting and everyone likes to hear your thoughts too.
Personally I hope that Kickstarter projects like Colossal Kaiju Combat come out. There's a lot of projects that are great ideas that people have started that could use the money. We need good games like those in this world.
You tell em Man! been watching your videos for years! Loved the video
I just cant believe that this biscuit never did wtf of Psychonauts. It was in humble bundle, but he actually didn't review it!--damn it is pretty much still one of the best games i ever played, and one of the most underrated games out there.
Also love your vids man! :) very informative and as always very funny! Keep up the Starcraft live streams...haven't seen one in a while.
If the person running the kick-starter is good and reliable you can get some neat stuff as well as a game for a price of a retail game. People need to use their wits before pledging. It's sad people abuse it somtimes but im glad it exists I have seen some beautiful things come out of kickstarter.
I certainly agree that Kickstarter and pre ordering are not entirely mutual. But surely stretch goals ARE.
Stretch goals are there to line the developers pocket with spare change prior to release, so that they may add things to their game. But pre orders do the exact same thing. We've seen stretch goals for pre ordering certain games like Tomb Raider.
Personally I wouldn't take the chance on kickstarter, but if I did, I wouldn't back a project once it's initial goal was reached.
Mixed honestly, but when it came down to it, it also shows steam there is support there as well. There is more then 1 company that needs to be shown there is interest. What other better what to pre-order a game that's genre hasn't gotten enough official backing for steam to pick It up more often then once and a while as an odd indie project. *There is enough issues with Greenlight as is*
Concrete information about the game from the developer, like descriptions of the game and genre, as I've said. This information tends to go much further and even provides the basis of reviews of the game when reviews are available.
It actually makes a lot of sense to look for the good reviews, because it is easy to see the bad. Not so easy for the good. If someone actually likes a game, they must have a personal reason that will tell you a lot more than the mainstream bad opinion. Hate spreads faster than love, so looking for reasons to like a game is far more worth your time and will really make you think if it is worth the experience. And if the good reviews don't convince you, there you go.
You are probably right. Costs will be at their highest ever to produce AAA titles and will require massive sales to turn a profit. But there will be incredible interest in games now. Sales will also be higher than they have been for the last 5-6 years. It could go either way. It depends on the cost to sales ratio. We're already seeing many developers go tits up.
I made the point a few posts back. "words mean things". I was trying to explain to you the difference between making a purchase and donating to a developer. I eventually got you to see my point. I'm not quite sure what I could have left out and still manage to lead you there.
Games on Kickstarter these times must show ingame videos. It is really difference when you see two artwork or just talking devs and on the other side good impressive actual ingame footage.
Kingdom Come: Deliverance reach in two days their goal, RPG, fantastic ingame trailer, devs atd...
www.kickstarter.com/projects/1294225970/kingdom-come-deliverance
And look at Unsung Story now, RPG, just talking devs, slow pledge process(still good).
www.kickstarter.com/projects/482445197/unsung-story-tale-of-the-guardians?ref=discovery
So far I've only backed 6 projects, and in every case it was a project that a) I really wanted to see and b) They already had something to actually show.
I think too many things come to kickstarter in a concept or even pre-concept stage when the concepts are not really fleshed out.
For the record, the projects I've backed are
Dreamfall Chapters
Distance
Freedom Planet
Sir, you are being hunted
Maia
and Strike Suit Zero
As you said, a prototype is perhaps the bet thing to include.
There is a pretty substantial difference between the two actually as TB said.. One you're essentially acting as an investor with some added incentives for something that doesn't even exist yet and has a chance it could fail to even make launch, while the other is buying a product that is for all intents and purposes done and dusted. In essense the difference is the risk involved and if you go in thinking of kickstarter as a pre-order service you're asking for potential disapointment.
to be honest, i mostly back music on kickstarter, though i've only had one project I backed fail, and that was a game project.
When I said that I was talking about 'consoles' as honestly, that's where pre-orders really matter honestly. I think it's 'almost' unneeded to pre-order a PC game *as I've only pre-ordered 2-3 myself (shadowrun returns, Dark souls, & one more I can't recall the other one honestly), though I've only pre-ordered 2 PS3 games I can recall FF13-2 & Dragon's Dogma *which I didn't get because of an X(*
v.V :p pre-orders should be upto personal taste.
Very true. They are very different things. Though there is no issue on my side of things where I buy a kickstarter funded game that has released and has gained positive reception from gamers, FTL is a perfect example of this and the recently released Shadowrun Returns looks interesting as well. It's nice to see devs not have to deal with publishers but its not good seeing promises go empty and games never coming out. The nature of Kickstarter and even Indie GoGo is quiet a dark & mysterious one.
Neither of those options are funding the game's development though. The poster i was replying to said a kick start can cost $100,000 to make a game but a pre-order can cost $1 to make a game. Basically he compared the price of CREATING AN ENTIRE GAME to the price of a customer pre-ordering a game.
Is it me or do I do my homework better and feel more intelligent when listening to TB's videos?
Oh TotalBiscuit, My TotalBiscuit. Whenever you research something you want, like a video game, you read the bad reviews and look for trends. If everyone says that a game mechanic is broken or that the AI is bunk, you know it's a bad game. But when all of the bad reviews are nebulas or disagree with each other about what is bad, then you can safely assume that the game is not inherently bad.
You often get things through a donation. Anything from a Poppy on memorial day, to a wing being named after you in a hospital.
Sure kickstarter can be good juju or karma, but all in all, pre-orders can give you bonuses as well *nothing close to what a kickstarter can*, but at the end of the day your only paying retail price not donating 100$+ for one title for some crazy level perk *which is fine if you can do that*
Though the benefits to a pre-order can be there for those who use it as it was intended to be or just don't want to bother risking if they'll have the spare money, & can be used to coverup a gift 4 a gamer.
Even if some of the production studios failed horribly (it happens in all business and was doomed to happen in this case as well) the main issue is that people just fail to understand how the system works and that the risk of failure always exist.
I've participated in a failed project as well but did that stop me from kickstarting more projects? NO because I knew it was going to happen at the outset.
There are "safe" projects of course, but anything can and might fail, that's just how it is.
I just played Shadowrun, One best storyline I've played through recently, Nice art style full character, I glad for Kickstater for brining that old school RPG game back, I wish I was able to be one ones that kick started it, but I'm a broke college student again. I glad to see more game in style Baldur gate or fallout coming out, make this old computer gamer happy and we got Kickstarter to thank for that.
I personally view both as follows:
-Kickstarter puts you in the shoes of the business man or investor. You have a predetermined goal to fund an operation you believe will sprawl into a flowering bouquet of awesome. For better or for worse the market is a bitch. You have nothing to do but stick with your opinions and hope for the best.
-Pre-ordering puts you in the shoes of the consumer. You know mostly what you're buying into and you do it anyway. Also you can get your money back in the end.
I never preorder games, even when they come with day one DLC.
6:14 i could totally imagine a mini TB read reveiws and making a "Not In My House" face when i read a disliking comment and i smiled
@ etheldir my point is that people's problems with pre-orders blossomed from the whole alien colonial marines fiasco which (most will say) was not what they expected. As TB stated, you've no guarantee the kickstarter will A. Even be built to completion or B. Be any good at all. Both marketing schemes are not giving you enough information to truly determine if a game is a good fit for you and is a gamble in *both* instances.
Yeah I have to agree with you TB. When it comes to kickstarter it is essentially like playing the stock market. You are putting an investment down and hoping for a happy return on said investment. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose. So I'd say only invest if you have the money to burn, and you're okay with taking a gamble. Just don't cry about it when it fails.
I look at Kickstarter as a micropayment/microloan version of a VC. It's up to me to do my research and like a VC I do expect a return on my investment but also like a VC there is some risk involved.
I've seen it happen on Steam once, and even thought it was a weekend more keys were available later that day.
When I look at reviews I generally look at the bad stuff first, and of course ignore trolls, and rage. If I'm still interested after that then I go forward.
Carmageddon raised way above its goal of a few hundred thousand, and got an anonymous donation of several million dollars for console releases. The developer immediately showed their working prototype, and have been steadily showing new assets that have been produced.
When you donate money to a kickstarter, there is an understand that whatever project you funded might not get off the ground. Most of the gifts they offer are obviously conditional on the release of the game.
You'll actually find that a lot of donation platforms offer gift based incentives to entice people to pledge money. Getting a poppy for giving money to the VFW, getting a new annex named after you for giving money to a hospital and everything in between.
Honestly, I know the differences between pre-ordering a near-finished game and kickstarting one that may not even come out. I can see why people would Kickstart something, but I'd rather sit back and watch. When I want to pre-order a game, I make damn sure I research it as much as I can (not so much reviews as seeing actual gameplay videos, because I could give less of a shit about IGN or Gametrailers reviews, for example) before doing so, so I know I'll get a copy of it one day one.
It's completely different and if, as a consumer, you don't see the difference, then that is your problem. When you donate to kickstarter, you are spending money to help develop a game, not to purchase the game. Your donation may give you access to certain incentives, including a copy of that game if it actually becomes a reality, but that's just a gift they use to entice you to donate. (cont...)
I just want to bring up 2K's quite excellent pre-orders. I'm only basing this on the Steam pre-orders of the two XCOM games (and Bioshock Infinite, I think?), but their pre-order bonuses are usually something like another one of their games. Which is pretty awesome. They are also pretty good at showing their games before they actually come out (they showed countless footage Enemy Unknown being played) and letting game reviewers give their opinions in advance.
In that case you should simply be waiting until the game is already released. That doesn't mean that pre-orders are a bad idea though. For instance, the game currently in development, Starbound, an indie game, fits very well with what I know I like. Therefore, I've pre-ordered that game to help support their development process. In return I will receive a copy of the game when it is released.
These copies are then NON-RETURNABLE copies purchased by the Corporation. That means the Dev (Or Publisher) who makes that benchmark has just sold extra copies which won't be returned via the warehouse due to their pre-order deal with the retailers.
The games which have huge Pre-Orders are given special attention by reviewers and extra promotion, that's money in the pocket via advertising.
This is similar to a "Bestseller List" and how it operates for books.
Because, I don't want people who do look at these to think this is what others think. He may also just be confused, even though everything I said was mentioned in the video that he clearly didn't watch. At the very least he was confused on what hypocrite meant.
If the only issue was people not estimating their cost effectivily for games, then you just realize the biggest issue with programming stuff in general. Even the simplest ideas and programs take alot longer then most people realize. I am speaking from a bit of experience as I wrote a simple text based adventure with a simplestic combat system and easy to use map. Took me several days and lots of help (insight on how to write important classes) before I got a prototype. Still developing it.
ATLUS games are known for 'limited' runs all in all, and they can run out within 2 weeks easily. Though there are other limited runs as well.*where the store just doesn't have any ability to do anything about it
So because there is a special case showing demand for a certain game that showed heavy interest in 'hard' or 'unforgiving' games on the PC,*which btw has spawned loads of games because it was shown the interest is there*it should be thrown out because it doesn't fit your model of things
The thing is with stretch goals for games Tom Raider is that the content is most probably made already with the intention of releasing it if the stretch goal has been passed. In fact, if this was true, it is more a scummy tactic to get more guaranteed sales than spare change because they are holding back finished content.
Great Question! Because again, they're two completely different thing. Pre-ordering is a way to purchase a product. And it's a bad way to purchase a product, compared to your other options. Unlike waiting until the game comes out, pre-ordering gives the consumer no real information about the quality of the game, or if it's going to work correctly. You could be buying a buggy, boring mess, compared to digital download, brick and mortar or having something shipped AFTER its been released....
now you've got me playing FTL again, thanks TB. lol.
but i like your videos like this. always good to be informed
Haunts The Manse Macabre was a smiller case and it is near to the point to being dead, in other words, cancelled. There is not alot to be done to save that project so even though it also succeeded in it's Kickstarer, not enough was given for it to be made.
TB I'm glad you mentioned the MetaCritic trap. I've suffered from that before more times than I'm proud of.
In my view, the difference between pre-orders and kickstarters is very simple and hopefully I can show you it. You can always just wait until the game comes out instead of pre-ordering. Nothing will change. You can't bring that same mindset of pre-orders to kickstarter. If you plan on just waiting til the kickstarter is over then the developers might not get enough money, and without the money the product is gone.
Oh, there's another aspect of "fail" here - if the project gets funded but not actually manages to produce it's supposed product. Sorry about my confusion about that.
He has a video where he talks about pre--orders. I think it's called should you pre-order or something like that.
The way i took it is "If you use kickstarter, you are donating money to a thing you want to exist and hope that it does. There is a risk, but if you care about the idea, it MAY be worth it. If you pre-order, you are committing to buying the game that WILL exist, whether or not the game is actually any good when it comes out. This is a bad move." and then he explains his own criteria for what kind of kickstarter is worth backing if your going to use kickstarter at all.
Or, alternatively, I wait a few days, since if I'm not exactly sure, I can see tons of people doing Day 1 Playthroughs (or, for JRPG's, watch the Japanese version for a bit).
have you watched the video yet? if you pre-order a game before the reviews are out then you're likely to be looking for reviews that prove you right since you already decided that the game is going to be good
Totalbiscuit is absolutely doing some serious mental gymnastics to justify the difference of these two. They're pretty much exactly the same thing, only big difference is that Pre-orders tend to be for games from the massive high budget developers.
I only pre-ordered 3 games and only ordered 2 of them in order to receive the statue figures that came with the collectors edition , after pre-ordering dragon age 2 and seeing its use of the same map area 10 times as a "different area" it made me decide to wait for games to come out and see the bigger picture before ordering it, and unless i just really want a collectiable item that comes with the collectors edition i will not be pre-ording, no stores near me carry collectors edition.
Actually, they never intended to do the board game, at least solely. Erik Chevalier, the guy running it, was just interested in starting up a company, which Kickstarter forbids. So he used the game as a way to sidestep that rule. He also has some major history in terms of failing in financial management. All the money earned would of gone into the company, with whats left for the board game.
The actual designer and artists for the game, on the other hand, had no clue that it was even canceled.
Some people pre-order a game with the excuse of supporting the developer, because they were pleased by what or who is related to it, but also getting something in return. Won't be smart if you deny to get these little things that come with pre-order just to prove a point.
I enjoy Saints Row 3 that I bought when it was in discount, so I won't bother to show my appreciation by pre-order SR4 and also get some goodies.
I hard coded it. I did not use one of those products designed to make programing a game easier. Its all in Java (I know easiest langauge), and I still want to work on it more, to include an item system and equipment system and a looting system.