@@drunkplaylists1829 Holding down a button (a buttons) to charge a move. Sometimes this requires that you hold a button down while having to do everything else.
@@Ezekiel_the_roach Whilst some moves that require negative edge can be charged, that's not what negative edge is. Negative edge is simply the act of releasing instead of pressing a button to activate a move. Hence why i'm curious what this guy is talking about when he says "juggle negative edge". It sounds like nonsense.
I've said it before, but nine times out of ten when I talked to people who bounce off of fighting games? It wasn't because the inputs were too hard or they dropped their combo. It's because they went online, got face rolled, and weren't given any input on what they could have done different other then "Yeah that sucks buddy. Oh well, back in the queue." I do think that it's good modern fighting games are trying to be more accessible, but lowering the execution ceiling isn't how it's gonna happen.
Exacution is a form mechanical balance, they added the Swiss cheese lightinglegs legs special to wolverine in umvc3 to nerf his mobility , making him way less scrubby and more precision based, the fact shoryuken has a forward imput means atleast one frame of risk in neuuteal as opposed a charge flash kick coming straight out of a block, it’s what makes guile a defence monster and Ken a more risk reward character. With one button specials either u gotta nerf the iconic property of the move or deal with frame 1 aping pike driver macro .
Something that inmediately comes to mind for a fighting game with great single player experience is plus. There are ton of different boss versions of characters in its story mode and other modes, like a super fast (well, more so than usual) Millia, versions of slayer, justice and dizzy that have super high speed, damage and meter, plus regenerating health. Even a mission mode, where one of the missions for example is to survive a round with a johnny's mist finner is a one shot if ya don't block it Is interesting! Along with the different story paths that ya get different ways, and a lot of stuff stuff, is big part of the reason of why I got so much into the game, and made me wanna play it and other fighters more. So I can definetely relate to that idea of a better single player I think something people miss sometimes when asking for less execution hurdles, is that they usually matter more so when perfecting your gameplan, rather than executing it. Like for example ya don't need to know that many of his character specific sidewinder loops, to just start out with Sol in plus r per say, is something ya can train to unlock his true potential and have something fun to grind. But ya can start with his basic fundamentals more than fine, which is pretty neat imo
In designing a fighting game myself, I've wrestled with this a lot. Is it the mechanics? The speed? The characters? The performance and therefore game feel? I think there's more to love in fighting games than just "is it possible to grind your thumbs into nubs / do mental gymnastics to effectively stop your opponent from playing through a 40 second combo." The meme "when do I get to play" is popular in fighting games for this reason, so when I saw you grinding such a long combo, my eye twitched. 3rd strike has short combos. Much like you I've been considering single player stuff to round out the experience as I feel like the biggest issue fighting games have is that you feel like you're on an island whereas in other games it feels like you're at a party. It's a very lonely sort of existence outside of arcades, and nobody has made a real effort to show the world while people play fighting games. It's always a claustrophobic room, or a vast desert. You never see anybody but your current opponent and you immediately bid farewell when either of you lose. I think that's what's separating the market since gamers of other genres are use to more community & teams in their gameplay.
That last paragraph is why despite disliking how the team executed it, I'm a big fan of Strive's lobby system conceptually. While I appreciate that my friends whine whenever we boot up any Arcsys game with avatar lobbies, I love the sense of expression in customizing your online presence and getting to see others AFKing, playing and chatting in a shared hub. Playing a game like Tekken 7 is incredibly cold and underwhelming when there is no voice chat and no meaningful way to talk to my opponent. I see a username, but there is no personality or meaning to our encounter and unlike team games you don't have groups of people running around on both teams to make the game feel more lively. When all that separates the feeling of arcade mode and the feeling of online is a username by my opponent's lifebar, it can be very hard to stay invested due to that loneliness and disconnect.
When it comes to social features fighting games lag far behind games in other genres. SF6 is at least trying with features like the Battle Hub and Clubs, but other big fighting games are failing miserably.
I think the biggest thing holding back the popularity of fighting games is the inability to play them cooperatively with your friends. There should be ranked modes for stuff like crew battles, or team games should take queues from 2KXO and implement modes where your friends can play the other members of your team. The major success of other games is that you can team up with your friends against other opponents, you get to have the social element and the competitive multiplayer element in one. You're right to identify that fighting games can be quite lonely, and I think the solution is to provide modes that alleviate that in game, as opposed to stuff like avatar lobbies which don't really do all that great a job of replicating the arcade experience imo.
@MapOfTheLost A lot of team games have already done that. Tekken Tag 2, MK9, KoFXV, SFxT and a couple others. Should really be a standard mode for any team game but yea, not that rare of an occurence thankfully. That said I def agree in general. It sucks that there is no way for me to play with my friends who barely play the genre outside of beating their ass or sandbagging so hard it is obvious I'm not trying. Co-op arcade, DBFZ's co-op boss mode and team PvP are wonderful steps to help onboard people more naturally. The genre desperately needs to stop gatekeeping the multiplayer aspect of fighting games from people who are more casually minded. Single player content is great but it misses the point that fighting games are at their best as a social genre and all the single player content in the world won't help Button Basher Brian enjoy the game with his friends. Then again it doesn't help that the single player content most games have tried giving us is horrifically underdeveloped and repetitive World Tour modes or mostly mediocre cinematic story modes like SFV or T7. In RTS I can fuck around with my friends in Starcraft 2's bevy of Commander co-op, custom content, co-op vs AI skirmishes, co-op campaign and PvP team games. In fighting games you get... nothing
And a great reason for losing all of his tools from the first game: he went home, and became a family man. Turns out that between seven years, and two kids, you grow completely out of shape. Who knew?
And then you do it in SFV where you can just mash parry. Not as hype anymore. At least in 6 where parry is holdable, you have the option to flex and try to perfect parry every hit.
Thank you. Characters like grapplers simply cant exist with simple controls, the cost of the input has to be replaced with a fixed cost of slower startup, basically making any grappler an instant low tier
There's one thing I'd like to contest. Fighting games haven't *always* had lacking single-player. Nowadays it's hard to find one that really nails it, and way back in the arcade hayday isn't much brighter, but there was a point in time that fighters made a real effort (with some success) to truly try to capture a single-player casual audience. That is, when they started coming out on consoles first and foremost. The 3D Mortal Kombat games are notable, as well as the Tekken series. Now not all of that fits into this niche of "teaching casuals with enticing mechanics" but I think there's something to be gleaned from, like, Smash Bros' Home Run Contest or whatever.
Agreed on it being common at some points in the past. I just wanted to add that isn't solely down to whether a title started in the arcades but if developers overvalued arcade design. For examples, SF Alpha 3 had a World Tour, 2 players vs AI and 2 AI vs the player. By comparison, 3rd Strike had much less presumably due to the circumstances of development. Both started on arcades and almost every Tekken game did as well which all delivered in one way or another.
@@thelastgogeta That is what I meant to get across in my comment. I don't think it's about whether a thing "is in the arcade" or not, it's how much the developers prioritized competition and/or quarter-munching, especially to the detriment of casual audiences and single-player content. I guess my words failed me.
A lot of whether a fighting game had great single player modes came down to how many iterations that game had, and how big of a budget they were given for each sequential port. A game like, for example, Alpha 3 Upper, was as feature rich as it was because it’d built up a rosters of character sprites over 3 games with multiple ports, plus sprites from CvS2 (also of which one sprite was a tweaked one from Street Fighter 3), and extra modes developed over multiple home port each with their own budget, which were amalgamated and built upom into Alpha 3 Upper. Same goes for games like Tekken 5, for which all the extra modes came from the porting budget it was given from arcade to home console, and the roster size was due to the library of animations they’d built up and able to reuse from their previous games. Had it never had an arcade release first with its own budget, it would’ve had way less content for its console release. Even Mortal Kombat that didn’t have initial arcade versions to build upon for their PS2 releases, built out each game sequentially by building up their rosters and features bit by bit with each release, and reusing assets for each new PS2 entry. The only exception I can think of for a feature rich fighting game from that period would be Soul Calibur 3, since that was made for home console first. And even that was able to build on old animation data, and even some reused 3D asset data. And it also resulted in a less fine tuned game from a gameplay perspective, a buggier game, and since it sold worse than previous entries I think it scared Namco off of making all those single player features on a single big budget release, since it didn’t result in more sales.
People ignore that throughout the late 2000s and early 2010s we did get fighting games that simplified execution whilst still having tons of expression. Blazblue, SF4, Marvel 3, Xrd, KoFXIII etc etc The issue isn't easier execution in a vacuum, its how the games themselves are designed around extremely powerful and accessible system mechanics whilst expression in regards to combos has also been greatly streamlined and diminished. You can have botg, the games that are an example of both are right in front of us this does not have to be a 0 sum game in either direction.
@drunkplaylists1829 Not even remotely true in an objective sense but go off lmao. Also just incredibly funny that you wanna look at something like SF3 vs SF4 or Marvel 2 vs Marvel 3 and even imply that execution is even in the top 3 biggest changes between the sequels that would impact if it was better or worse. Oh well.
@@SomniaCE Ah...you're one of those people who doesn't know the meaning of the word objective i see. Lmfao. And who said anything about execution other than you? I simply stated that those games were worse than their predecessors. Although, in my opinion, lowering the skill ceiling in that respect did contribute to them being worse. But that's subjective. You know what that means right? Lol course you don't . And apparently you don't know what the word predecessors means either. Who said i was talking about SF3 or Marvel 2? Dunning Kruger hard at work once again.
@drunkplaylists1829 I expect this level of pseudo-intellectualism from youtube comments so thankfully I can just laugh at how pathetic this is as a response and move on. Absolutely incoherent babbling, really fun stuff. You don't see this kind of failed attempt at looking smart as often in the modern age, ty for the throwback.
@@SomniaCE ...the way you express yourself. Yeesh. And that's an awful lot of words to justify being borderline illiterate. Objective/subjective, predecessors. They're not that long as far as simple words go; maybe you'll understand what they mean someday. You can do it!
fun fighting game philosophy to think about: Does a harder execution game make the game harder or easier to play/learn? Okay now that you thought of your answer consider the following: While the high execution games HAVE hard execution, you are not required to use said hard execution, you are allowed to look for things you can do consistently, as is your opponent. You're allowed to play to your strengths and have some wiggle room for what it is you want to do and at the same time it gives you a concrete visible marker for how to improve aspects of your game. Now think of the alternative: Lower execution games force you to wrap your head around more nebulous, harder to visualize ideas. They force you to master a specific area of the game in order to get better, because you have a clearer combo path for optimal combos that you MUST do. You are no longer playing to the strengths of the player but instead focused on trying to squeeze out every tiny bit of advantage the game gives towards you, causing those who's strengths align with the game design's playstyle to more easily showcase dominance faster and clearer. And that isn't to say anything about the simpler game's lack of variation instilling weariness on the common player who is forced to deal with characters and combos the game clearly favors in order to perform better. This isn't to say i'm all or nothing when it comes to this topic. I personally feel like fighting games are like going out to eat, sometimes you want tacobell, other times you want fine dining, and the variety of games only help give each person what it is they want most. THAT SAID, i definitely prefer my fighting games to let me play around with different playstyles and prioritizing different aspects of my own gameplay, just because that's interesting to me.
I really don't think anything in this comment is a given though. You can make a game with difficult execution that has 0 meaningful combo expression and you can make a game with simple execution that has tons of it. You can make a game with difficult execution that has system mechanics so powerful that they homogonize play patterns and make specific playstyles dominant and you can make an easy to execute game that is more expressive. I guess you would need to define "easier execution" cause maybe I'm just misunderstanding what you meab. Easier execution can mean more hitstop, larger buffer windows, more generous input readers, shorter combos and a few other things. It /can/ mean any individual thing or all of them which is why as a community the FGC has been through multiple generations of certain folks crying foul at various attempts to simplify execution over the last 15-20 or so years. Imo the reason people seem to incorrectly attribute the notion of "easier execution = less expressive and interesting game", is because modern games have tried so hard to both simplify execution and create such powerful and universal system mechanics that the game warps around them because they want those mechanics to be easier to understand as well. But it doesn't /have/ to be that way. You can genuinely loosen up the input reader and maybe give a better buffer window for a game like 3S or +R and those games can remain extremely deep and difficult to fully solve while remaining highly expressive in damn near every way. Likewise you can lower hitstop, have a stricter input reader and remove buffering almost entirely from SF6 and it will still be a highly solvable fighting game with a dumbed down archetypes (for the most part) and homogonized playstyles. Ans that's not even getting into how with Modern controls (which I'm not inherently against mind you) we've effectively jumped the shark in terms of discussing any individual aspect of execution as much of that goes out the window when you give people single input specials/supers. Gone are the days of disgruntled +R players saying the Blazblue devs are hurting fighting games by giving them a few frames of buffer... This is a pedantic response I know but I hate that the discussion of execution in fighting games leads to people indirectly or explicitly acting like tough as nails classic execution is the only meaningful difference between modern and classic fighting games being super expressive or super solvable.
I think high execution always makes a game harder. A game with hard execution doesn't make the intangible things you mention any less important. You need execution and knowledge in a high execution game. In a game with easy execution, you can mostly skip the first step so it's inherently easier.
Cooperative modes would also go a long way imo. If I wanted to convince a friend to play fighting games with me it always had to be a 1v1 scenario against each other because there simply aren't any more options avilable.
I think if fighting games want to explore ways to branch out to a wider audience they should go the roguelike route for a single player experience. I'm thinking Vampire Survivors with or without the pure spectacle but clear incremental improvements to characters regardless. Even multiplayer could incorporate aspects of that if done well as I think a game like League of Legends fairly demonstrates that simplicity snowballing into complexity dynamic in the mechanic options characters gain through items. I think the base game could be very simple in execution, rewarding it of course but not to the same extent as spacing/footsies - which gives an edge that later produces a stronger more execution expression character. Basically you have a CS:GO equivalent of a pistol round to determine how fast players scale so to speak. After a while the game could become more neutral skippy or not as it evolves past the pistol round so to speak, doesn't matter. What matters is newer players would get stronger even by mashing with minimal execution but to truly excel they would need more execution to maximize the use of their improving kit.
I'd say execution barriers are good when it comes to pulling off things that should be hard. I think it's good to avoid unnecessarily difficult execution just for the sake of having difficult execution. My favorite example of this is the Korean backdash in Tekken. I don't care how smoothly people can do it once they practice it enough. You shouldn't require some special tech just to back up fast enough. I agree on single player content, though. I'd like to see more fighting games do more with single player modes, and Them's Fighting Herds had the right idea if only they didn't have to stop development.
I feel like putting expert level execution to get that last 10% of damage makes a lot of sense. Needing it for BnB's (outside of a rogue niche character) or basic gameplay technique is a recipe for disaster. I blame the struggle that KoF has to maintain an active playerbase not on 3 characters but on needing to do short hops in neutral 100% reliably.
That's the thing though, what "should" be hard? How fast do you have to back up to back up "fast enough"? Dribbling in basketball started as effectively a movement exploit, but now it's a core fundamental technique of the sport, an execution barrier to playing the game at all.
Well Tekken 8 just solved the KBD issue but just making it way weaker relative to other movement so even if you can't KBD quickly or at all it isn't as big of an issue because you can't just KBD away from your problems like you could in 7
i disagree with tekken movement in this instance. kbd isn't a special case, the takeaway in tekken is ALL movement can be canceled into a different movement option. the key to being good at tekken movement is to cancel everything into something else. kbd is just a special application of that. it's really important to learn how to always be moving in tekken even if you're not KBDing
James Chen has a very similar idea to help bring more people in. He also talks about drip feeding mechanics/moves. And Gerald from Core-A-Gaming talks about Sweeps & Throws which is a game he came up with to allow students(?) to start playing/enjoying a fighting game without being overwhelmed.
I wouldn't call it "Tricking" players, just getting them to play the game more often. Smash did what you described at the end a while ago. They made a game that was like a casual party game, but it was so fun, people just played matches more often. This, of course, led people to star learning more complex fighting mechanics, like frames, damage and weight calculation, shield advantage, among others. However, it did embrace simplicity, and that's kind of /why/ it achieved what it did with new people staying with the game for long enough to learn it's nuisances. I don't feel like that's bad, though. I like that it adapted to the hardware and new technology. You can still have complexity and rewarding, difficult gameplay without doing the whole command input schtick. Melee is a great example of that.
Nailed it. As much as I want to get good, I also want to see these genious players who can perform crazy things I can't dream of doing. That's why 3s is so hype
I think the problem isn't that execution barriers are bad, it's that they may dissuade potential new players. For years I've been advocating for the simplification of controls. But this doesn't mean that I just want to make games plainly easier. An example would be 3rd Strike's parry. I find this mechanic completely fine, I wouldn't touch it. Another example would be SNK's pretzel input. I think that input is harder now than during the arcades because of the controllers we use today. I believe that the barrier of execution has to be debated from both the PoV of the competition and the PoV of the casual. It's perfectly fine to want a hard game, just don't expect it to be as populated as the one that catered to the casual
@@drunkplaylists1829 you may prefer playing with only 10 people but a company releasing an entertaining product probably wants a sizeable player base. I'd recommend you to play Hinokakera. It's a super complex fighting game and I bet that only a handful of people in the whole world play it. I think you're underestimating the importance of the casual players' presence.
There was someone that retweeted James basically saying it was a shitty take and that execution should basically be taken out of fighting games. It was the scrubbiest quote I've ever seen and it wasn't a troll. That person was doubling, tripling down, etc. in the replies to his retweet. It was wild.
@@drunkplaylists1829 maybe for combos, but apparently not for faints and breaks. Guard cancels are apparently pretty hard also. Max and Justin both said this.
@@superpowerman4354 They are still drastically reduced from the first game, just like KOF 15 is nowhere near anything pre 13, albeit still tricky for people with no skill. It's not "bringing back execution". They will never make games as demanding as pre-2K9 ever again. Also, Maximillion's opinion is worthless, that guy can't play games to save his life.
@@drunkplaylists1829 Ya we have been officially in the “new age” era of fighting games since SF4(2009)Comeback mechanics, easy mode controls, auto combos and an excessive amount of unnecessary focus on single player content. The days of old are gone. But it might not necessarily be a good idea to completely invalidate people’s opinions about game that they have actually played so we can tell ourselves stories about it. He claims he confirmed with the devs the frame windows for some of the mechanics. He has stressed a few times the defensive option takes execution. Pretty sure roofle said something similar as well.
@@superpowerman4354 "Takes execution" is subjective. Especially since i'm sure everything is challenging for a player of Maximillion's calibre. If you actually have a source that states that those particular mechanics are the same or more strict than Mark of the Wolves then let's see it. Otherwise it's just a case of trust me bro. Irrespective of those mechanics the combos are considerably easier. Therefore by virtue of that alone execution is still drastically reduced from the first game. And it's not coming back.
Execution absolutely belongs in fighting games, however there has to be a balance. Your entire roster can't be made of Rubik's cube inputs, some guys have to be easily accessible, other guys are the middle ground, while others are for the advanced. Because if success is taught us anything is that it's historically never a good idea to alienate the casual audience. Whether the fgc wants to admit it or not, at the end of the day, they're not the majority of the consumer base. Sure, they're a very important part because they help decide if the game deserves further exposure, but the reality is that not everybody plays at that high level Because they won't be capable to . So you have to provide a little something for everyone.
there are very few games that have ever been like that though, even the notoriously difficult games, like +R and og melty blood actually have a ton of very easy to pick up and play characters on their rosters with combos you can teach a beginner in under an hour. tbh it's harder for me to come up with games where the majority of the cast isn't on the easy to medium difficulty side.
@@drunkplaylists1829 And people like you are foolish enough to miss the point. ANY OF YOUR FAVORITE FIGHTING GAMES do not succeed without the support from the casual audience, this is a proven fact, rather you're too stubborn to accept it or not. So a good fighting game cannot alienate casual players because it is terrible for their sales. We have seen proof of this many times, even you know this fam so stop it.
@@jonathanmaldonado2499 Lmao what are you babbling on about. All of my favourite games succeeded just fine. Good games, legendary games, wilfully alienated casual players all the time. The reason there have been very few good games that even come close to those in the last 15 years is because of the contemporary casual audience of whining weaklings like yourself who demand games pander to their insufficiencies.
@@jonathanmaldonado2499 Lmao what are you babbling on about. All of my favourite games succeeded just fine. Good games, legendary games, wilfully alienated casual players all the time. The reason there have been very few good games that even come close to those in the last 15 years is because of the contemporary casual audience of whining weaklings like yourself who demand games pander to their insufficiencies.
Hayao? Don't they call him 880 because he can do that many circle motions in the time it takes other players to do a 720? Used to watch some third strike vids. Walk up standing 720s are insane
Modern mode/easy operation/stylish mode/whatever is for entry level people who just want to sit with you during the cookout waiting for the food to cook. Hop in, press aome buttons, have fun. Classic controls/normal mode/whatever is for Friday nights at your locals with 20 bucks on the line in a first to 3. Cuz let's be honest, you got washed at pools and you're trying to make back your gas money. Both can coexist in different levels, but what's missing are things that can transfer those button mashers into sweats. And for that I have bo idea.
I think SF6 has a good balance between the easier Modern controls and Classic controls. While I understand that hard execution makes EVO cooler, my friends who don't play fighting games can come over and play SF6 properly instead of mashing random buttons. They can't do motion inputs and they don't know combos. Once they know the controls and mechanics they can actually play. And for me, I value that more than big EVO moments. Modern controls won't singlehandedly make them better than me. My fairly simple combos do more damage than their auto combos and for them to do the same combos in modern it still takes practice (if they can do it at all since not all classic controls are available in modern). Further, for most people who play these games execution isn't the difficult part of these games it's knowing when to use each move. It's why at the mid ranks the Classic players don't really struggle much against Modern players
The problem is t your friends who don’t know how to play at all. It’s the people who learn how to play but use modern so that they don’t have to worry about learning excecution. It’s getting to super or DP on reaction. It’s about NEVER HAVING TO WORRY ABOUT DRIPPING YOUR INPUTS. I play classic chun in master at about 1300, a modern Cammy will never have to worry about dropping a conversion and can instant DP me every time I jump wirhout ever having to be “ready” for it. Completely on reaction. The obvious solution to me is to not allow Modern in Ranked anywhere above gold rank. Once you get to play you need to learn how to 623. Sorry but at that point it’s time to take the training wheels off
Doing my duty as a modern sf6 player to remind everyone that modern mode has motion inputs, too. Pros that use modern mode actually use motion inputs very often if not primarily. They don’t use the auto combos, and the only thing that modern helps them with is the instant specials which I admit can be cheap. I’m so glad all of the best tools are locked behind motion inputs for the most part. That means even with modern mode there’s execution barriers. The better I get at doing the 360 input for Zangief for example, the more I realize why execution barriers are such a crucial part of fighting games. It gives me more access to different, grab ranges, and more damage for punishes. I watch a lot of replays of high rank players, who use modern mode. I always wondered why they still used motion input so much and now I know why.
Motion Inputs are meant to balance moves against each other. Shoryu is a better anti air than crouching HP, but one comes with an executional cost. The moment you eliminate that cost and equalize both moves, crouching HP has zero reasons to exist. That's the problem, really. The problem is people fail to realize that motion inputs aren't an entry barrier, they're a balancing tool, that's it.
In no way am I saying only SF3 can do this. Any game can create such a moment. But that EVO moment was specifically because chip damage is more significant, it's lethal (unlike SF6 and Tekken 8), and lastly it has a parry that you cannot simply button hold unlike SF6. All of these are the recipes for a spectacular pop-off moment. Other games simply have different rules that are more consistent and has a lower skill floor, at the cost of lower ceiling as well. As an example: I think Snake Eyez vs Xian's timeout comeback from EVO 2014 is also EVO moment worthy. #38 is a honorary moniker simply because it's the successor in the same game.
I disagree. I don’t think any game can create such a moments. 3S allows for moments like this because of the overall mechanics, it’s a much more free flowing game then SF6. 4 allowed for cool moments because it was also a more free flowing game. 6 is very stiff game in comparison. You can only play the game the way it’s intended to be played.
As someone who's been playing fighting games, particularly Street Fighter, since the 90s, I don't think of modern controls as bad in any way shape or form. Execution and technicality are far more rewarding but sometimes you just want to get in and play and learn some baseline mechanics. This is especially true for me when they take a character I used to know really well and screw with them in such a way that my muscle memory basically becomes useless. That or they've added so many new mechanics and gimmicks that it has become hard to keep track of everything. I play guile using classic in 6. So far I've used modern for almost every other character I've tested out. I use modern as kind of a shortcut into learning the new mechanics and timing, the combo routes for characters, and other similar nuances. I enjoy seeing an Auto combo in modern and trying to figure out how to do that same combo manually while still in modern. There's also something super satisfying when I beat someone who gets salty about me using modern controls. I think Max said it pretty well in one of his videos a month or so back. Getting good at doing special moves doesn't mean you're good at fighting games. Modern controls and the biggest complaints about them center around one button special moves. The ability to perform a special move does not equate to being good at execution of combos or at learning the nuances of a game. I've got a lot of problems these days with my hands and forearms and shoulders hurting. Modern controls let me play the game without aggravating any existing RSI I have. At the same time, it is nowhere near as fulfilling to play as Street Fighter 4 was. I had a lot better execution and muscle memory during sf4 than I do now. I also had a lot less repetitive stress injuries. I agree with James in that execution belongs in fighting games. I also believe that modern controls offer a different path towards execution. If you were to think of execution as some sort of a tier list or combo trial, you could kind of imagine modern controls as being a lower tier and therefore an easier to execute combo. Those easier combos will not be as flashy or as long or as damaging but they are still valid. Meanwhile, combos that require a higher skill of execution should be more damaging, more flashy, more technical, and more entertaining. That makes them more rewarding to learn.
Execution still exists. I can’t confirm a damn thing unless it’s extremely easy, which limits my damage or options. I STILL can’t do cr. MK > super with Chun in 3s or cr. HP > super with Cammy in SFV. In SF6, my best shimmy punish is st. MK.
From your sf6 example i'm kinda feeling like this might not be entirely and execution problem. what are you trying to confirm that shimmy into? cause the answer should be drive rush. Even if it's blocked just do your blockstring and your safe. Especially if you can't react to the throw wiff and instead trying to react to your move hitting which is nigh impossible with mediums in sf6. Also using a heavy button would be an easier confirm.
@@davidpapai4018 I probably didn’t give a great example and I was being slightly facetious. In SFV, I played Cammy and shimmied a lot and mostly punished with st. HP. I play Honda in SF6, so I’m pretty much doing command throw, overhead, or st. HP on oki.
I very rarely play hectic hack n' slash action RPGs because despite non stop, over the top action and never ending parry/dodge/attack strings... they are perilously boring. I see ARPGs as a sort of anti-fighting game. Or more aptly anachro-fighting game. Because they have elements of FGs but lack the depth of individual control. Its sort of the classic "press a button and cool shit happens". But to me, and I suspect a lot of fighting game players, ARPGs stop feeling fun after a few minutes and start feeling like just a grind to finish a level. Then spend 5x longer setting up gear and attributes only to grind through another mash fest level. Rinse and repeat. Whereas the FGC brain says "I'm gonna spend 5x longer in training mode labbing my new shit, mastering my BnB's, and learning my matchups. Then go try my luck." Rinse and repeat. I think GBVS and Rising has the best modern control system. And the best intro to that via the beat 'em up story mode. Every fighting game should have modern controls(but still access to technical inputs) in a multiplayer beat 'em up story mode. Make that the free to play version and that would be a great way to make fighting games more accessible and multiplayer.
holly shit u dabbled in dks 1 pvp? The community is so niche bro, so its awesome to see someone who is a part of it. Also, nice double stack black flame lmfao
Personally, the aspect of fighting games that I enjoy the most is the fast-paced 1-on-1 mental dialogue that isn't seen much in other genres. I'm not the kind of person who feels that “doing hard stuff is fun”, so execution often just feels like an additional cognitive tax or source of variance that obstructs the parts of the game that I do care about or find rewarding. In that way, it only really serves to detract from the overall experience for me. Which is not to say that other people shouldn't enjoy it - that would be ridiculous - but just wanted to throw it out there that people might enjoy some aspects of the core FG package and not others. Granted, I'll still put up with it in games like +R and BBCF, since I still enjoy what they bring to the table over more streamlined games, but it's a lot easier (for me at least) to feel motivated to stick with it when the rewarding bits are consistent rather than variable.
@@drunkplaylists1829 I understand, instead of playing the games I enjoy in the way I enjoy as a hobby, I will simply do things that I do not enjoy instead. Thank you for the infinite wisdom you offer in this comment section. 🙏
@@cob1million How strange that you would choose to do things you don't enjoy. Especially when there's now so many games that are tailor made for you to not have to bother with taxing things like learning execution.
I've recently been playing a lot of plus R it it had me thinking about how people often only think about execution barriers at an entry level in modern (SF4 and later) fighting games. There are things that are hard but, with practice most strong players CAN learn to do them constantly if they want too. This feels very different to a game like XX where even the best players a will be incredibly inconsistent with drops, flubs and scrambles happening pretty much every match. Basically in old games it's not just hard it's pretty much impossible too not make mistakes when playing in high stakes environments. It leads less predictable situational outcomes giving high level play a much more frantic feel. There are some mechanics in modern games that work like this, GGST has a just defend window much smaller than it's predecessor to the point where it's not realistic to be 100% consistent with the mechanic on defense. But even so it plays much more consistently overall. This isn't a value judgement of either just something interesting.
Great video and I agree fully. I really struggle to enjoy games with low execution requirements and direction + skill/special buttons. They’re just not engaging to me after a week or two. I’m not saying they’re easy, they just aren’t as fun to me. A lot of the fun and challenge is in the motions and execution… I totally understand the dev’s push to get more people to buy their game. I think better single player content is really the answer, but in the meantime, at least new players can still go back and try 3S, MVC2, GG AC+R, Rev2 or whatever else
Ideally we need games with healthy playerbases that both contain expert level execution and don't contain it. There are HUGE benefits to both sides of this coin. For games with difficult execution it gives infinitely deeper levels of gameplay mastery to tackle as you progress on your journey into the game. For games without overly involved execution you can gain mastery over your character faster leading you to the true end game fun of fighting games...the mental battle against a human opponent.
Execution belongs in all games. It's what you're looking to make with your game. KI2013 has pretty low of an physical execution barrier you can mash out a combo with a classic anime fighter style of light->medium->heavy->ender/extension. That game is a mental battle and infinite skill curve though combo breaker is a simple layer that lets you get your turn back by learning your opponents habits and mixups, to boot it's just pressing punch+kick of equal strength and most of it isn't too restrictive apart from manuals. Counter breaker is an equally powerful thing that lets your opponent think they're getting their turn back. To top off the sound, and visual design also contribute to the hype of these moments with having a lockout symbol if one gets counter breakered or an explosion if a combo breaker works. Not to mention something people miss. There alot of old games with high execution barriers but are thrown to the wayside and there's even modern high execution games like KOF and right before strive we had xrd. Alot of what people want or pretend to want still exists... To answer your final question of onboarding I do think single player and "arcade" content should be the way to get new players in. SF6 does a fine job gameifying the mechanics like the pizza minigame for motion inputs.
Try Ragnarok Battle Offline with friends, it is a beat 'em up based on Ragnarok Online where you unlock special moves when you level up and it is really fun to play. Btw game made by French Bread, the developers of Melty, UNI and DFCI
It's a good thing it's alive and well in modern games. The only thing that annoys me when people imply it doesn't exist anymore. It takes all those things in 3s,and it takes those things to get a perfect parry into perfect counter situation in 6. I hate that I've come to fear picking videos like this because I agree but hate that people imply this doesn't exist anymore. I guarantee way more people can do the daigo parry or the hayao parry than think they can. And I'm OF COURSE not saying they can do it in the moment etc. I just mean, it doesn't need to be some impossible to comprehend input. Just challenging and specific and with immense pressure. Modern mode didn't remove any of this it just gives people a choice. And even with 1 button specials, the hayao situation would be incredibly impressive!
Modern fighting games are watered down in so many ways. No way to sugar coat it. Fatal Fury CotW MIGHT be the one to have a proper balance between skill and “fun”.
The funny thing is that in your example Hayao not doing something that hard to execute if you know the timing of air parries for air tatsu This moment is pure game knowledge. Thing that keeps people away from fighting games is very high entry execution barrier. My favorite example is smash. Smash on high lvl of play is very execution heavy game but you can have fun right from the start using all character base tools with no additional executional knowledge required. In classical fg even simple task such as do consistent Dp is challenge by itself for every new to fg player.
As for the title and initial premise? Yeah, sure - especially if the balance of the execution is well considered or happens to lend to a decent risk/reward ratio. As far as single fighting game content? The first part is a misnomer as the point is having a reason for people to get invested and learn despite not wanting to grind the online ladder or not going to Discord. It can still be competitive on paper with Tekken Ball (as much as it has versus AI). My favourite examples allow for co-op (Smash regularly does this) as well. Lastly, it isn't as uncommon as you suggest. SoulCalibur and Tekken always had a decent number options (though T7 was a bit of a series low point). Street Fighter V (eventually) and 6 had some good showings as well. Some of these games are just poor at signposting these alternative ways to play which leads to alternative controls which can be implemented in all parts of the game becoming common place.
Currently? Barely any. Maybe Tekken 8 still sticks to execution and general complexity the most (compared to others) while games like Strive are at the opposite end of radically changing what made the game beloved by fans before to a slower, footsie based experience with homogenized characters and more limited tools.
@@Nyagro Tekken 8 is not as complex with heat mechanics, and mash friendly gameplay. Tekken is only "complex" due to so many moves you have to learn through knowledge checks. Movement isn't even as difficult as Tekken players like to claim it is.
@@theopulentone1650 Tekken is "mash friendly" since at least T3 my dude. Movement is by far the most complex thing in Tekken in any FG. And don't get me wrong, I'm not fdefending that game but your claims are a bit bs. Also, my point was about keeping legacy mechanics in the game so you entirely missed the mark on my comment as well. Tekken is one of the games with still most of the core and legacy mechanics intact to this day.
Execution is fine when it's for something like, an optimal BnB that gives like an extra 5% damage or whatever. The thing about 3rd Strike is. If you can't parry consistently. You're not really actually playing Third Strike. That's a BAD execution barrier.
You're not required to parry to play the game and if you desire to play at higher levels, you need to work to get there. This is why it's a more difficult mechanic. It's actually not as hard as you think it is. You can have a good experience just being able to parry fireballs for example, which is very easy to do. Being able to parry full supers and multi-hitting moves, it's all about a rhythm that you can practice. It's not like there is some hidden technique for it. You can set a training dummy to parry every move. It really comes down to knowing timing and rhythms which you can replicate by watching the training dummy do it. That's how I learned. I was parrying wakeup supers in less than a month's time after I bought the game for 360. The mechanic can be difficult but there is a lot of easy uses you can do with it that doesn't require a ton of execution. You can play this game by simply blocking, being able to parry isn't a win condition. Matches aren't won based on the parry ability. The clip shown was the only instance where the mechanic really shined through like this. These moments don't grow on trees.
I played the hell out of borh sf2 sf2 hyper in the snea to me back then those games had infinite single player content just loved playing vs tha ai as well as humans.
I think requiring a certain level of execution is good but, the busier i get the more i understand why people want fighting games to be more accessible. I only have so much time to practice and lab, so many series make me end up saying "welp back to Smash" after like 1 week. Thankfully I'm doing better at sticking with SF6 and Strive
I haven’t watched it yet, but I agree with the title 😂 anyways I generally think dragon ball fighterz was perfect balance of easy to pick up and hard to master.
New games are hard but in a different way. The execution is looser but the length of the execution is drawn out. They also remove things like partitioning in new street fighters.
Striking a balance is hard. Sf4 is prolly the the most hype sf to watch but its damn frustrating to play. Kinda same with 3. I heard even some pros admitted 4 was not all that fun to play
I'm hesitating making this comment, but please know it doesn't come as a disparagement. I've noticed a lot of videos coming out where the equalization or the way it's recorded makes it sound like the person is almost whispering in your ear. As someone with trauma history it's kind of unnerving and I was unable to watch the whole video. Just wanted to let you know. I agree with your thesis btw and that's why I clicked 👍
I think there is a balance there. There is some level of streamlining that can be done that I think is good liking making sure your basic combos work across the entire cast, there not being too many 1 frame links, potentially streamline some more esoteric mechanics... don't be +R Chipp is what Im saying. That said I definitely think modern controls and autocombos are the wrong way to go. The reason I as a noob bounced off DBFZ was that after I got a hit I just mashed through a cutscene and the game didnt really teach me how to combo. I definitely agree that singleplayer should be a good tutorial, fighting games losing their arcade esoterica is mostly a good thing. Third point is just... maybe fighting games shouldn't be designed for people who don't like fighting games. Maybe they shouldn't be designed for people who don't want to learn them. Because they are a skill based hobby. Now, I think fighting games should be designed in a way to make the beginner into an intermediate player as smoothly and quickly as possible, but then the real climb should start.
Modern is almost perfect. They just need to adjust the scaling more or remove auto combos. It’s great that modern keeps motion inputs, it made transitioning to classic mode very approachable. People who are interested in reaching their full potential will naturally start using proper inputs and be tempted to switch.
While the air parries and walk up 720s does address your point about high execution, you do know that the last, most hyped, most talked about part of Hayao's performance did not require high execution. In fact it was a simple 1 button press. It only required a simple knowledge of that normal is airborn and Ken's attack will whiff. So that part actually contradicts your point. What makes the last part work is the mental stack. Hayao's ability to retain that information (Hugo's normal) that has long been ignored by the general viewer and if not even all pro including 3s god - JWong. Nothing to do with execution. Yes, the interaction BEFORE it needed high execution. That helped BUILD the drama/hype. But the finality itself? Nope. Just a simple timed 1 button press. Regarding your point in general... I have nothing against high execution. It does add to the mystique of not only the game but the pro themselves. It is like watching a wide receiver make a one handed catch. It is amazing and entertaining because you can't believe some one can do it especially at that critical high-pressure moment. But let us not forget that high execution is only one aspect. There are other aspects that can make a game entertaining to play and watch. SF1 has one of the hardest execution of all SF games. But no one wants to play or watch that game.
Executions came from making the arcade game hard so you can waste more quarters learning how to play, it was a business model had nothing to do with anything else, the strategy should be the focus of fighting games, not wasting hours of your life learning executions
The skill ceiling of American Third Strike is so low. It is insane to me that this Hugo combo has blown up so much. Its nothing unusual to see something like that from any B ranked player on Fightcade or the Japanese weekly tournies on livestream. SF5/6 really rotted zoomers minds
its not cause the combo's difficult, its cause getting consecutive air parries, landing with the right jump-in and do the right combo for the knockdown is pretty impressive in this setting or any setting for this matter. if you're so great and the ceilling is so low, why didn't THE asian makoto didn't get top 6. why didn't YOU win?
Have you not seen moment 37 done by people in their room. None of them are going to place in top fgc brackets, not even close. Skill ceiling also means having the mental to do that with pressure. A lot of people can't.
@@chadturner614 I have done "moment 37" plenty of times. Its not that hard. Its something you HAVE to learn to be able to survive any serious tournament filled with Chuns.
@MyNamesNotLars1 Cool, I can do it as well. I'm mid at best. What daigo and hayao did can technically be done by a lot of people. I also know a bunch of people who can do it too.
@MyNamesNotLars1 I do not know if you place high in those tournaments, or if your just doing online tournaments. It's different live and I know that from personal experience, but maybe we are just built different. I can't argue without knowing more, but from my perspective there are alot of choke artists in tournaments.
just clicking to leave a dislike on the title alone because it's flagrantly wrong and a major reason that normal people don't play fighting games outside of buying mortal Kombat doing story mode and never touching the game again
Most people dont play fighting games because they want to come home and turn their brain off to relax. There is a reason why call of duty and sports games are the number one sellers every single year.
The very thing that makes us fall in love with fighting games is the same thing that keeps people from loving it.
As always, the solution to any problem with fighting games is, unsurprisingly, Soulcalibur.
If I can't break both my hands, and my brain, trying to juggle negative edge, I don't want to play a character lol
Carl clover is for you my friend
juggle negative edge?
@@finnmarr-heenan2397 I am, unfortunately, already an Izanami main.
@@drunkplaylists1829 Holding down a button (a buttons) to charge a move. Sometimes this requires that you hold a button down while having to do everything else.
@@Ezekiel_the_roach Whilst some moves that require negative edge can be charged, that's not what negative edge is. Negative edge is simply the act of releasing instead of pressing a button to activate a move. Hence why i'm curious what this guy is talking about when he says "juggle negative edge". It sounds like nonsense.
I've said it before, but nine times out of ten when I talked to people who bounce off of fighting games? It wasn't because the inputs were too hard or they dropped their combo. It's because they went online, got face rolled, and weren't given any input on what they could have done different other then "Yeah that sucks buddy. Oh well, back in the queue." I do think that it's good modern fighting games are trying to be more accessible, but lowering the execution ceiling isn't how it's gonna happen.
and people will still refer to them as gatekeeping as they do not want to go over the hassle of practice in execution.
Exacution is a form mechanical balance, they added the Swiss cheese lightinglegs legs special to wolverine in umvc3 to nerf his mobility , making him way less scrubby and more precision based, the fact shoryuken has a forward imput means atleast one frame of risk in neuuteal as opposed a charge flash kick coming straight out of a block, it’s what makes guile a defence monster and Ken a more risk reward character. With one button specials either u gotta nerf the iconic property of the move or deal with frame 1 aping pike driver macro .
Something that inmediately comes to mind for a fighting game with great single player experience is plus. There are ton of different boss versions of characters in its story mode and other modes, like a super fast (well, more so than usual) Millia, versions of slayer, justice and dizzy that have super high speed, damage and meter, plus regenerating health. Even a mission mode, where one of the missions for example is to survive a round with a johnny's mist finner is a one shot if ya don't block it
Is interesting! Along with the different story paths that ya get different ways, and a lot of stuff stuff, is big part of the reason of why I got so much into the game, and made me wanna play it and other fighters more. So I can definetely relate to that idea of a better single player
I think something people miss sometimes when asking for less execution hurdles, is that they usually matter more so when perfecting your gameplan, rather than executing it. Like for example ya don't need to know that many of his character specific sidewinder loops, to just start out with Sol in plus r per say, is something ya can train to unlock his true potential and have something fun to grind. But ya can start with his basic fundamentals more than fine, which is pretty neat imo
In designing a fighting game myself, I've wrestled with this a lot. Is it the mechanics? The speed? The characters? The performance and therefore game feel? I think there's more to love in fighting games than just "is it possible to grind your thumbs into nubs / do mental gymnastics to effectively stop your opponent from playing through a 40 second combo." The meme "when do I get to play" is popular in fighting games for this reason, so when I saw you grinding such a long combo, my eye twitched. 3rd strike has short combos.
Much like you I've been considering single player stuff to round out the experience as I feel like the biggest issue fighting games have is that you feel like you're on an island whereas in other games it feels like you're at a party. It's a very lonely sort of existence outside of arcades, and nobody has made a real effort to show the world while people play fighting games. It's always a claustrophobic room, or a vast desert. You never see anybody but your current opponent and you immediately bid farewell when either of you lose. I think that's what's separating the market since gamers of other genres are use to more community & teams in their gameplay.
this comment 😗👌
That last paragraph is why despite disliking how the team executed it, I'm a big fan of Strive's lobby system conceptually. While I appreciate that my friends whine whenever we boot up any Arcsys game with avatar lobbies, I love the sense of expression in customizing your online presence and getting to see others AFKing, playing and chatting in a shared hub.
Playing a game like Tekken 7 is incredibly cold and underwhelming when there is no voice chat and no meaningful way to talk to my opponent. I see a username, but there is no personality or meaning to our encounter and unlike team games you don't have groups of people running around on both teams to make the game feel more lively.
When all that separates the feeling of arcade mode and the feeling of online is a username by my opponent's lifebar, it can be very hard to stay invested due to that loneliness and disconnect.
When it comes to social features fighting games lag far behind games in other genres. SF6 is at least trying with features like the Battle Hub and Clubs, but other big fighting games are failing miserably.
I think the biggest thing holding back the popularity of fighting games is the inability to play them cooperatively with your friends. There should be ranked modes for stuff like crew battles, or team games should take queues from 2KXO and implement modes where your friends can play the other members of your team. The major success of other games is that you can team up with your friends against other opponents, you get to have the social element and the competitive multiplayer element in one. You're right to identify that fighting games can be quite lonely, and I think the solution is to provide modes that alleviate that in game, as opposed to stuff like avatar lobbies which don't really do all that great a job of replicating the arcade experience imo.
@MapOfTheLost A lot of team games have already done that. Tekken Tag 2, MK9, KoFXV, SFxT and a couple others. Should really be a standard mode for any team game but yea, not that rare of an occurence thankfully.
That said I def agree in general. It sucks that there is no way for me to play with my friends who barely play the genre outside of beating their ass or sandbagging so hard it is obvious I'm not trying. Co-op arcade, DBFZ's co-op boss mode and team PvP are wonderful steps to help onboard people more naturally.
The genre desperately needs to stop gatekeeping the multiplayer aspect of fighting games from people who are more casually minded. Single player content is great but it misses the point that fighting games are at their best as a social genre and all the single player content in the world won't help Button Basher Brian enjoy the game with his friends. Then again it doesn't help that the single player content most games have tried giving us is horrifically underdeveloped and repetitive World Tour modes or mostly mediocre cinematic story modes like SFV or T7.
In RTS I can fuck around with my friends in Starcraft 2's bevy of Commander co-op, custom content, co-op vs AI skirmishes, co-op campaign and PvP team games. In fighting games you get... nothing
I guess you can call Guacamelee a 2D fighting game beat 'em up metroidvania.
Oooh I'll have to check that out
@@KlineFGC it even has a sequel
And a great reason for losing all of his tools from the first game: he went home, and became a family man. Turns out that between seven years, and two kids, you grow completely out of shape. Who knew?
Actually completing the Evo moment 37 parry + punish in trial mode after a bajillion attempts is one of the best experiences of my life.
And then you do it in SFV where you can just mash parry. Not as hype anymore. At least in 6 where parry is holdable, you have the option to flex and try to perfect parry every hit.
@@espurrseyes42 I never enjoyed SFV, neither playing nor watching. I don't quite like VI either but it's nowhere near as bad as V.
@@espurrseyes42street fighter 6 is not on the screen, it can’t hurt you
@@snitchbugyou really like it that much huh?
@@strafer8764 i’ve never played it, this person is talking about third strike and you’re seeing ghosts
I miss SF4 Smug.
Thank you.
Characters like grapplers simply cant exist with simple controls, the cost of the input has to be replaced with a fixed cost of slower startup, basically making any grappler an instant low tier
There's one thing I'd like to contest. Fighting games haven't *always* had lacking single-player. Nowadays it's hard to find one that really nails it, and way back in the arcade hayday isn't much brighter, but there was a point in time that fighters made a real effort (with some success) to truly try to capture a single-player casual audience. That is, when they started coming out on consoles first and foremost. The 3D Mortal Kombat games are notable, as well as the Tekken series. Now not all of that fits into this niche of "teaching casuals with enticing mechanics" but I think there's something to be gleaned from, like, Smash Bros' Home Run Contest or whatever.
Agreed on it being common at some points in the past. I just wanted to add that isn't solely down to whether a title started in the arcades but if developers overvalued arcade design.
For examples, SF Alpha 3 had a World Tour, 2 players vs AI and 2 AI vs the player. By comparison, 3rd Strike had much less presumably due to the circumstances of development. Both started on arcades and almost every Tekken game did as well which all delivered in one way or another.
@@thelastgogeta That is what I meant to get across in my comment. I don't think it's about whether a thing "is in the arcade" or not, it's how much the developers prioritized competition and/or quarter-munching, especially to the detriment of casual audiences and single-player content. I guess my words failed me.
@@daniellemurnett2534 No worries. It was more meant as a complementary post than a correction.
I believe _Them's Fightin' Herds_ has a damn good single-player mode, too.
A lot of whether a fighting game had great single player modes came down to how many iterations that game had, and how big of a budget they were given for each sequential port.
A game like, for example, Alpha 3 Upper, was as feature rich as it was because it’d built up a rosters of character sprites over 3 games with multiple ports, plus sprites from CvS2 (also of which one sprite was a tweaked one from Street Fighter 3), and extra modes developed over multiple home port each with their own budget, which were amalgamated and built upom into Alpha 3 Upper.
Same goes for games like Tekken 5, for which all the extra modes came from the porting budget it was given from arcade to home console, and the roster size was due to the library of animations they’d built up and able to reuse from their previous games. Had it never had an arcade release first with its own budget, it would’ve had way less content for its console release.
Even Mortal Kombat that didn’t have initial arcade versions to build upon for their PS2 releases, built out each game sequentially by building up their rosters and features bit by bit with each release, and reusing assets for each new PS2 entry.
The only exception I can think of for a feature rich fighting game from that period would be Soul Calibur 3, since that was made for home console first. And even that was able to build on old animation data, and even some reused 3D asset data. And it also resulted in a less fine tuned game from a gameplay perspective, a buggier game, and since it sold worse than previous entries I think it scared Namco off of making all those single player features on a single big budget release, since it didn’t result in more sales.
People ignore that throughout the late 2000s and early 2010s we did get fighting games that simplified execution whilst still having tons of expression. Blazblue, SF4, Marvel 3, Xrd, KoFXIII etc etc
The issue isn't easier execution in a vacuum, its how the games themselves are designed around extremely powerful and accessible system mechanics whilst expression in regards to combos has also been greatly streamlined and diminished.
You can have botg, the games that are an example of both are right in front of us this does not have to be a 0 sum game in either direction.
...and every single one of the games you listed were worse than their predecessors.
@drunkplaylists1829 Not even remotely true in an objective sense but go off lmao. Also just incredibly funny that you wanna look at something like SF3 vs SF4 or Marvel 2 vs Marvel 3 and even imply that execution is even in the top 3 biggest changes between the sequels that would impact if it was better or worse.
Oh well.
@@SomniaCE Ah...you're one of those people who doesn't know the meaning of the word objective i see. Lmfao.
And who said anything about execution other than you? I simply stated that those games were worse than their predecessors. Although, in my opinion, lowering the skill ceiling in that respect did contribute to them being worse. But that's subjective. You know what that means right? Lol course you don't .
And apparently you don't know what the word predecessors means either. Who said i was talking about SF3 or Marvel 2?
Dunning Kruger hard at work once again.
@drunkplaylists1829 I expect this level of pseudo-intellectualism from youtube comments so thankfully I can just laugh at how pathetic this is as a response and move on.
Absolutely incoherent babbling, really fun stuff. You don't see this kind of failed attempt at looking smart as often in the modern age, ty for the throwback.
@@SomniaCE ...the way you express yourself. Yeesh.
And that's an awful lot of words to justify being borderline illiterate. Objective/subjective, predecessors. They're not that long as far as simple words go; maybe you'll understand what they mean someday. You can do it!
fun fighting game philosophy to think about: Does a harder execution game make the game harder or easier to play/learn?
Okay now that you thought of your answer consider the following: While the high execution games HAVE hard execution, you are not required to use said hard execution, you are allowed to look for things you can do consistently, as is your opponent. You're allowed to play to your strengths and have some wiggle room for what it is you want to do and at the same time it gives you a concrete visible marker for how to improve aspects of your game.
Now think of the alternative: Lower execution games force you to wrap your head around more nebulous, harder to visualize ideas. They force you to master a specific area of the game in order to get better, because you have a clearer combo path for optimal combos that you MUST do. You are no longer playing to the strengths of the player but instead focused on trying to squeeze out every tiny bit of advantage the game gives towards you, causing those who's strengths align with the game design's playstyle to more easily showcase dominance faster and clearer. And that isn't to say anything about the simpler game's lack of variation instilling weariness on the common player who is forced to deal with characters and combos the game clearly favors in order to perform better.
This isn't to say i'm all or nothing when it comes to this topic. I personally feel like fighting games are like going out to eat, sometimes you want tacobell, other times you want fine dining, and the variety of games only help give each person what it is they want most. THAT SAID, i definitely prefer my fighting games to let me play around with different playstyles and prioritizing different aspects of my own gameplay, just because that's interesting to me.
I really don't think anything in this comment is a given though. You can make a game with difficult execution that has 0 meaningful combo expression and you can make a game with simple execution that has tons of it. You can make a game with difficult execution that has system mechanics so powerful that they homogonize play patterns and make specific playstyles dominant and you can make an easy to execute game that is more expressive.
I guess you would need to define "easier execution" cause maybe I'm just misunderstanding what you meab. Easier execution can mean more hitstop, larger buffer windows, more generous input readers, shorter combos and a few other things. It /can/ mean any individual thing or all of them which is why as a community the FGC has been through multiple generations of certain folks crying foul at various attempts to simplify execution over the last 15-20 or so years. Imo the reason people seem to incorrectly attribute the notion of "easier execution = less expressive and interesting game", is because modern games have tried so hard to both simplify execution and create such powerful and universal system mechanics that the game warps around them because they want those mechanics to be easier to understand as well.
But it doesn't /have/ to be that way. You can genuinely loosen up the input reader and maybe give a better buffer window for a game like 3S or +R and those games can remain extremely deep and difficult to fully solve while remaining highly expressive in damn near every way. Likewise you can lower hitstop, have a stricter input reader and remove buffering almost entirely from SF6 and it will still be a highly solvable fighting game with a dumbed down archetypes (for the most part) and homogonized playstyles.
Ans that's not even getting into how with Modern controls (which I'm not inherently against mind you) we've effectively jumped the shark in terms of discussing any individual aspect of execution as much of that goes out the window when you give people single input specials/supers. Gone are the days of disgruntled +R players saying the Blazblue devs are hurting fighting games by giving them a few frames of buffer...
This is a pedantic response I know but I hate that the discussion of execution in fighting games leads to people indirectly or explicitly acting like tough as nails classic execution is the only meaningful difference between modern and classic fighting games being super expressive or super solvable.
I think high execution always makes a game harder. A game with hard execution doesn't make the intangible things you mention any less important. You need execution and knowledge in a high execution game. In a game with easy execution, you can mostly skip the first step so it's inherently easier.
@@SomniaCE This is beautifully articulated. Very well written.
Spoken like someone who truly has no idea what they're talking about.
Cooperative modes would also go a long way imo.
If I wanted to convince a friend to play fighting games with me it always had to be a 1v1 scenario against each other because there simply aren't any more options avilable.
I think if fighting games want to explore ways to branch out to a wider audience they should go the roguelike route for a single player experience. I'm thinking Vampire Survivors with or without the pure spectacle but clear incremental improvements to characters regardless. Even multiplayer could incorporate aspects of that if done well as I think a game like League of Legends fairly demonstrates that simplicity snowballing into complexity dynamic in the mechanic options characters gain through items.
I think the base game could be very simple in execution, rewarding it of course but not to the same extent as spacing/footsies - which gives an edge that later produces a stronger more execution expression character. Basically you have a CS:GO equivalent of a pistol round to determine how fast players scale so to speak.
After a while the game could become more neutral skippy or not as it evolves past the pistol round so to speak, doesn't matter. What matters is newer players would get stronger even by mashing with minimal execution but to truly excel they would need more execution to maximize the use of their improving kit.
I'd say execution barriers are good when it comes to pulling off things that should be hard. I think it's good to avoid unnecessarily difficult execution just for the sake of having difficult execution. My favorite example of this is the Korean backdash in Tekken. I don't care how smoothly people can do it once they practice it enough. You shouldn't require some special tech just to back up fast enough.
I agree on single player content, though. I'd like to see more fighting games do more with single player modes, and Them's Fighting Herds had the right idea if only they didn't have to stop development.
I feel like putting expert level execution to get that last 10% of damage makes a lot of sense. Needing it for BnB's (outside of a rogue niche character) or basic gameplay technique is a recipe for disaster. I blame the struggle that KoF has to maintain an active playerbase not on 3 characters but on needing to do short hops in neutral 100% reliably.
That's the thing though, what "should" be hard? How fast do you have to back up to back up "fast enough"? Dribbling in basketball started as effectively a movement exploit, but now it's a core fundamental technique of the sport, an execution barrier to playing the game at all.
Well Tekken 8 just solved the KBD issue but just making it way weaker relative to other movement so even if you can't KBD quickly or at all it isn't as big of an issue because you can't just KBD away from your problems like you could in 7
i disagree with tekken movement in this instance. kbd isn't a special case, the takeaway in tekken is ALL movement can be canceled into a different movement option. the key to being good at tekken movement is to cancel everything into something else. kbd is just a special application of that. it's really important to learn how to always be moving in tekken even if you're not KBDing
oh dear
I wanna play my opponent, not my hands.
Cool story, I’ll be over here playing GranBlue
James Chen has a very similar idea to help bring more people in. He also talks about drip feeding mechanics/moves.
And Gerald from Core-A-Gaming talks about Sweeps & Throws which is a game he came up with to allow students(?) to start playing/enjoying a fighting game without being overwhelmed.
I wouldn't call it "Tricking" players, just getting them to play the game more often. Smash did what you described at the end a while ago. They made a game that was like a casual party game, but it was so fun, people just played matches more often. This, of course, led people to star learning more complex fighting mechanics, like frames, damage and weight calculation, shield advantage, among others.
However, it did embrace simplicity, and that's kind of /why/ it achieved what it did with new people staying with the game for long enough to learn it's nuisances. I don't feel like that's bad, though. I like that it adapted to the hardware and new technology. You can still have complexity and rewarding, difficult gameplay without doing the whole command input schtick. Melee is a great example of that.
Nailed it. As much as I want to get good, I also want to see these genious players who can perform crazy things I can't dream of doing. That's why 3s is so hype
Man I wish I forgot about Melty Blood TL's shield :(
I think the problem isn't that execution barriers are bad, it's that they may dissuade potential new players.
For years I've been advocating for the simplification of controls. But this doesn't mean that I just want to make games plainly easier.
An example would be 3rd Strike's parry. I find this mechanic completely fine, I wouldn't touch it.
Another example would be SNK's pretzel input. I think that input is harder now than during the arcades because of the controllers we use today.
I believe that the barrier of execution has to be debated from both the PoV of the competition and the PoV of the casual. It's perfectly fine to want a hard game, just don't expect it to be as populated as the one that catered to the casual
People like you are part of the problem. I'd rather play a game with 10 good players than 10 good players + 100 complainers.
@@drunkplaylists1829 you may prefer playing with only 10 people but a company releasing an entertaining product probably wants a sizeable player base.
I'd recommend you to play Hinokakera. It's a super complex fighting game and I bet that only a handful of people in the whole world play it.
I think you're underestimating the importance of the casual players' presence.
There was someone that retweeted James basically saying it was a shitty take and that execution should basically be taken out of fighting games.
It was the scrubbiest quote I've ever seen and it wasn't a troll. That person was doubling, tripling down, etc. in the replies to his retweet.
It was wild.
Fatal Fury City of the Wolves is bringing back execution. They haven’t forgotten. Great video!
They have lowered execution drastically on that game.
@@drunkplaylists1829 maybe for combos, but apparently not for faints and breaks. Guard cancels are apparently pretty hard also. Max and Justin both said this.
@@superpowerman4354 They are still drastically reduced from the first game, just like KOF 15 is nowhere near anything pre 13, albeit still tricky for people with no skill. It's not "bringing back execution". They will never make games as demanding as pre-2K9 ever again.
Also, Maximillion's opinion is worthless, that guy can't play games to save his life.
@@drunkplaylists1829 Ya we have been officially in the “new age” era of fighting games since SF4(2009)Comeback mechanics, easy mode controls, auto combos and an excessive amount of unnecessary focus on single player content. The days of old are gone. But it might not necessarily be a good idea to completely invalidate people’s opinions about game that they have actually played so we can tell ourselves stories about it. He claims he confirmed with the devs the frame windows for some of the mechanics. He has stressed a few times the defensive option takes execution. Pretty sure roofle said something similar as well.
@@superpowerman4354 "Takes execution" is subjective. Especially since i'm sure everything is challenging for a player of Maximillion's calibre. If you actually have a source that states that those particular mechanics are the same or more strict than Mark of the Wolves then let's see it. Otherwise it's just a case of trust me bro.
Irrespective of those mechanics the combos are considerably easier. Therefore by virtue of that alone execution is still drastically reduced from the first game. And it's not coming back.
Execution absolutely belongs in fighting games, however there has to be a balance. Your entire roster can't be made of Rubik's cube inputs, some guys have to be easily accessible, other guys are the middle ground, while others are for the advanced. Because if success is taught us anything is that it's historically never a good idea to alienate the casual audience. Whether the fgc wants to admit it or not, at the end of the day, they're not the majority of the consumer base. Sure, they're a very important part because they help decide if the game deserves further exposure, but the reality is that not everybody plays at that high level Because they won't be capable to . So you have to provide a little something for everyone.
there are very few games that have ever been like that though, even the notoriously difficult games, like +R and og melty blood actually have a ton of very easy to pick up and play characters on their rosters with combos you can teach a beginner in under an hour. tbh it's harder for me to come up with games where the majority of the cast isn't on the easy to medium difficulty side.
Who cares about alienating the casual audience. The games were better when those people weren't involved.
@@drunkplaylists1829 And people like you are foolish enough to miss the point. ANY OF YOUR FAVORITE FIGHTING GAMES do not succeed without the support from the casual audience, this is a proven fact, rather you're too stubborn to accept it or not. So a good fighting game cannot alienate casual players because it is terrible for their sales. We have seen proof of this many times, even you know this fam so stop it.
@@jonathanmaldonado2499 Lmao what are you babbling on about. All of my favourite games succeeded just fine. Good games, legendary games, wilfully alienated casual players all the time.
The reason there have been very few good games that even come close to those in the last 15 years is because of the contemporary casual audience of whining weaklings like yourself who demand games pander to their insufficiencies.
@@jonathanmaldonado2499 Lmao what are you babbling on about. All of my favourite games succeeded just fine. Good games, legendary games, wilfully alienated casual players all the time.
The reason there have been very few good games that even come close to those in the last 15 years is because of the contemporary casual audience of whining weaklings like yourself who demand games pander to their insufficiencies.
Hayao? Don't they call him 880 because he can do that many circle motions in the time it takes other players to do a 720? Used to watch some third strike vids. Walk up standing 720s are insane
Modern mode/easy operation/stylish mode/whatever is for entry level people who just want to sit with you during the cookout waiting for the food to cook. Hop in, press aome buttons, have fun.
Classic controls/normal mode/whatever is for Friday nights at your locals with 20 bucks on the line in a first to 3. Cuz let's be honest, you got washed at pools and you're trying to make back your gas money.
Both can coexist in different levels, but what's missing are things that can transfer those button mashers into sweats. And for that I have bo idea.
I think SF6 has a good balance between the easier Modern controls and Classic controls. While I understand that hard execution makes EVO cooler, my friends who don't play fighting games can come over and play SF6 properly instead of mashing random buttons. They can't do motion inputs and they don't know combos. Once they know the controls and mechanics they can actually play. And for me, I value that more than big EVO moments. Modern controls won't singlehandedly make them better than me. My fairly simple combos do more damage than their auto combos and for them to do the same combos in modern it still takes practice (if they can do it at all since not all classic controls are available in modern). Further, for most people who play these games execution isn't the difficult part of these games it's knowing when to use each move. It's why at the mid ranks the Classic players don't really struggle much against Modern players
The problem is t your friends who don’t know how to play at all. It’s the people who learn how to play but use modern so that they don’t have to worry about learning excecution. It’s getting to super or DP on reaction. It’s about NEVER HAVING TO WORRY ABOUT DRIPPING YOUR INPUTS. I play classic chun in master at about 1300, a modern Cammy will never have to worry about dropping a conversion and can instant DP me every time I jump wirhout ever having to be “ready” for it. Completely on reaction.
The obvious solution to me is to not allow Modern in Ranked anywhere above gold rank. Once you get to play you need to learn how to 623. Sorry but at that point it’s time to take the training wheels off
@@matthewlinz6336idk man maybe don't jump towards someone with an instant dp😂
Doing my duty as a modern sf6 player to remind everyone that modern mode has motion inputs, too. Pros that use modern mode actually use motion inputs very often if not primarily.
They don’t use the auto combos, and the only thing that modern helps them with is the instant specials which I admit can be cheap.
I’m so glad all of the best tools are locked behind motion inputs for the most part. That means even with modern mode there’s execution barriers.
The better I get at doing the 360 input for Zangief for example, the more I realize why execution barriers are such a crucial part of fighting games.
It gives me more access to different, grab ranges, and more damage for punishes. I watch a lot of replays of high rank players, who use modern mode. I always wondered why they still used motion input so much and now I know why.
Motion Inputs are meant to balance moves against each other.
Shoryu is a better anti air than crouching HP, but one comes with an executional cost. The moment you eliminate that cost and equalize both moves, crouching HP has zero reasons to exist.
That's the problem, really.
The problem is people fail to realize that motion inputs aren't an entry barrier, they're a balancing tool, that's it.
In no way am I saying only SF3 can do this. Any game can create such a moment. But that EVO moment was specifically because chip damage is more significant, it's lethal (unlike SF6 and Tekken 8), and lastly it has a parry that you cannot simply button hold unlike SF6. All of these are the recipes for a spectacular pop-off moment. Other games simply have different rules that are more consistent and has a lower skill floor, at the cost of lower ceiling as well.
As an example: I think Snake Eyez vs Xian's timeout comeback from EVO 2014 is also EVO moment worthy. #38 is a honorary moniker simply because it's the successor in the same game.
I disagree. I don’t think any game can create such a moments. 3S allows for moments like this because of the overall mechanics, it’s a much more free flowing game then SF6. 4 allowed for cool moments because it was also a more free flowing game.
6 is very stiff game in comparison. You can only play the game the way it’s intended to be played.
Chip damage is lethal in SF6.
Devil May Cry in general does a great job of introducing fighting game mechanics into a hack and slash, it elevates it over its competitors
liked the video on title alone
As someone who's been playing fighting games, particularly Street Fighter, since the 90s, I don't think of modern controls as bad in any way shape or form. Execution and technicality are far more rewarding but sometimes you just want to get in and play and learn some baseline mechanics. This is especially true for me when they take a character I used to know really well and screw with them in such a way that my muscle memory basically becomes useless. That or they've added so many new mechanics and gimmicks that it has become hard to keep track of everything.
I play guile using classic in 6. So far I've used modern for almost every other character I've tested out. I use modern as kind of a shortcut into learning the new mechanics and timing, the combo routes for characters, and other similar nuances.
I enjoy seeing an Auto combo in modern and trying to figure out how to do that same combo manually while still in modern.
There's also something super satisfying when I beat someone who gets salty about me using modern controls.
I think Max said it pretty well in one of his videos a month or so back. Getting good at doing special moves doesn't mean you're good at fighting games. Modern controls and the biggest complaints about them center around one button special moves.
The ability to perform a special move does not equate to being good at execution of combos or at learning the nuances of a game.
I've got a lot of problems these days with my hands and forearms and shoulders hurting. Modern controls let me play the game without aggravating any existing RSI I have.
At the same time, it is nowhere near as fulfilling to play as Street Fighter 4 was. I had a lot better execution and muscle memory during sf4 than I do now. I also had a lot less repetitive stress injuries.
I agree with James in that execution belongs in fighting games. I also believe that modern controls offer a different path towards execution.
If you were to think of execution as some sort of a tier list or combo trial, you could kind of imagine modern controls as being a lower tier and therefore an easier to execute combo. Those easier combos will not be as flashy or as long or as damaging but they are still valid. Meanwhile, combos that require a higher skill of execution should be more damaging, more flashy, more technical, and more entertaining. That makes them more rewarding to learn.
Execution still exists. I can’t confirm a damn thing unless it’s extremely easy, which limits my damage or options. I STILL can’t do cr. MK > super with Chun in 3s or cr. HP > super with Cammy in SFV. In SF6, my best shimmy punish is st. MK.
From your sf6 example i'm kinda feeling like this might not be entirely and execution problem. what are you trying to confirm that shimmy into? cause the answer should be drive rush. Even if it's blocked just do your blockstring and your safe. Especially if you can't react to the throw wiff and instead trying to react to your move hitting which is nigh impossible with mediums in sf6. Also using a heavy button would be an easier confirm.
@@davidpapai4018 I probably didn’t give a great example and I was being slightly facetious. In SFV, I played Cammy and shimmied a lot and mostly punished with st. HP. I play Honda in SF6, so I’m pretty much doing command throw, overhead, or st. HP on oki.
I very rarely play hectic hack n' slash action RPGs because despite non stop, over the top action and never ending parry/dodge/attack strings... they are perilously boring. I see ARPGs as a sort of anti-fighting game. Or more aptly anachro-fighting game. Because they have elements of FGs but lack the depth of individual control. Its sort of the classic "press a button and cool shit happens". But to me, and I suspect a lot of fighting game players, ARPGs stop feeling fun after a few minutes and start feeling like just a grind to finish a level. Then spend 5x longer setting up gear and attributes only to grind through another mash fest level. Rinse and repeat.
Whereas the FGC brain says "I'm gonna spend 5x longer in training mode labbing my new shit, mastering my BnB's, and learning my matchups. Then go try my luck." Rinse and repeat.
I think GBVS and Rising has the best modern control system. And the best intro to that via the beat 'em up story mode. Every fighting game should have modern controls(but still access to technical inputs) in a multiplayer beat 'em up story mode. Make that the free to play version and that would be a great way to make fighting games more accessible and multiplayer.
turns out letting newbies commit war crimes against each other isn't good for player numbers.
RIP DNF.
We need higher execution barriers+longer combos/reward if you can do them, reward the better player, Jojo HFTF my goat
holly shit u dabbled in dks 1 pvp?
The community is so niche bro, so its awesome to see someone who is a part of it.
Also, nice double stack black flame lmfao
Personally, the aspect of fighting games that I enjoy the most is the fast-paced 1-on-1 mental dialogue that isn't seen much in other genres. I'm not the kind of person who feels that “doing hard stuff is fun”, so execution often just feels like an additional cognitive tax or source of variance that obstructs the parts of the game that I do care about or find rewarding. In that way, it only really serves to detract from the overall experience for me. Which is not to say that other people shouldn't enjoy it - that would be ridiculous - but just wanted to throw it out there that people might enjoy some aspects of the core FG package and not others.
Granted, I'll still put up with it in games like +R and BBCF, since I still enjoy what they bring to the table over more streamlined games, but it's a lot easier (for me at least) to feel motivated to stick with it when the rewarding bits are consistent rather than variable.
Go and play chess then. Fighting games aren't for you.
@@drunkplaylists1829 Lol, I have thousands of hours across a dozen different fighting games. I like the genre, just not for the execution aspect.
@@cob1million thousands of hours. A whole dozen games. How meaningful. Well at least new games are watered down enough to cater more for your needs.
@@drunkplaylists1829 I understand, instead of playing the games I enjoy in the way I enjoy as a hobby, I will simply do things that I do not enjoy instead. Thank you for the infinite wisdom you offer in this comment section. 🙏
@@cob1million How strange that you would choose to do things you don't enjoy. Especially when there's now so many games that are tailor made for you to not have to bother with taxing things like learning execution.
Time to pull out battle drill 1A!!!
I've recently been playing a lot of plus R it it had me thinking about how people often only think about execution barriers at an entry level in modern (SF4 and later) fighting games. There are things that are hard but, with practice most strong players CAN learn to do them constantly if they want too. This feels very different to a game like XX where even the best players a will be incredibly inconsistent with drops, flubs and scrambles happening pretty much every match. Basically in old games it's not just hard it's pretty much impossible too not make mistakes when playing in high stakes environments. It leads less predictable situational outcomes giving high level play a much more frantic feel. There are some mechanics in modern games that work like this, GGST has a just defend window much smaller than it's predecessor to the point where it's not realistic to be 100% consistent with the mechanic on defense. But even so it plays much more consistently overall. This isn't a value judgement of either just something interesting.
Great video and I agree fully. I really struggle to enjoy games with low execution requirements and direction + skill/special buttons. They’re just not engaging to me after a week or two. I’m not saying they’re easy, they just aren’t as fun to me. A lot of the fun and challenge is in the motions and execution… I totally understand the dev’s push to get more people to buy their game. I think better single player content is really the answer, but in the meantime, at least new players can still go back and try 3S, MVC2, GG AC+R, Rev2 or whatever else
SF6 zangief being able to do SA3 on reaction with modern controls 💀
The air parry isn’t the hard part. It’s the crouching low into lariat I’m impressed by
Ideally we need games with healthy playerbases that both contain expert level execution and don't contain it. There are HUGE benefits to both sides of this coin. For games with difficult execution it gives infinitely deeper levels of gameplay mastery to tackle as you progress on your journey into the game. For games without overly involved execution you can gain mastery over your character faster leading you to the true end game fun of fighting games...the mental battle against a human opponent.
Execution belongs in all games. It's what you're looking to make with your game. KI2013 has pretty low of an physical execution barrier you can mash out a combo with a classic anime fighter style of light->medium->heavy->ender/extension. That game is a mental battle and infinite skill curve though combo breaker is a simple layer that lets you get your turn back by learning your opponents habits and mixups, to boot it's just pressing punch+kick of equal strength and most of it isn't too restrictive apart from manuals. Counter breaker is an equally powerful thing that lets your opponent think they're getting their turn back. To top off the sound, and visual design also contribute to the hype of these moments with having a lockout symbol if one gets counter breakered or an explosion if a combo breaker works.
Not to mention something people miss. There alot of old games with high execution barriers but are thrown to the wayside and there's even modern high execution games like KOF and right before strive we had xrd. Alot of what people want or pretend to want still exists...
To answer your final question of onboarding I do think single player and "arcade" content should be the way to get new players in. SF6 does a fine job gameifying the mechanics like the pizza minigame for motion inputs.
Try Ragnarok Battle Offline with friends, it is a beat 'em up based on Ragnarok Online where you unlock special moves when you level up and it is really fun to play.
Btw game made by French Bread, the developers of Melty, UNI and DFCI
It's a good thing it's alive and well in modern games. The only thing that annoys me when people imply it doesn't exist anymore. It takes all those things in 3s,and it takes those things to get a perfect parry into perfect counter situation in 6. I hate that I've come to fear picking videos like this because I agree but hate that people imply this doesn't exist anymore.
I guarantee way more people can do the daigo parry or the hayao parry than think they can. And I'm OF COURSE not saying they can do it in the moment etc. I just mean, it doesn't need to be some impossible to comprehend input. Just challenging and specific and with immense pressure.
Modern mode didn't remove any of this it just gives people a choice. And even with 1 button specials, the hayao situation would be incredibly impressive!
Nah. It wouldn't.
" And even with 1 button specials, the hayao situation would be incredibly impressive!"
lol what a retarded take.
Modern fighting games are watered down in so many ways. No way to sugar coat it. Fatal Fury CotW MIGHT be the one to have a proper balance between skill and “fun”.
Yup!
The funny thing is that in your example Hayao not doing something that hard to execute if you know the timing of air parries for air tatsu This moment is pure game knowledge. Thing that keeps people away from fighting games is very high entry execution barrier. My favorite example is smash. Smash on high lvl of play is very execution heavy game but you can have fun right from the start using all character base tools with no additional executional knowledge required. In classical fg even simple task such as do consistent Dp is challenge by itself for every new to fg player.
As for the title and initial premise? Yeah, sure - especially if the balance of the execution is well considered or happens to lend to a decent risk/reward ratio.
As far as single fighting game content? The first part is a misnomer as the point is having a reason for people to get invested and learn despite not wanting to grind the online ladder or not going to Discord.
It can still be competitive on paper with Tekken Ball (as much as it has versus AI). My favourite examples allow for co-op (Smash regularly does this) as well.
Lastly, it isn't as uncommon as you suggest. SoulCalibur and Tekken always had a decent number options (though T7 was a bit of a series low point). Street Fighter V (eventually) and 6 had some good showings as well.
Some of these games are just poor at signposting these alternative ways to play which leads to alternative controls which can be implemented in all parts of the game becoming common place.
Really good video, interested on your thoughts what modern FGs don't sacrifice complexity?
Currently? Barely any. Maybe Tekken 8 still sticks to execution and general complexity the most (compared to others) while games like Strive are at the opposite end of radically changing what made the game beloved by fans before to a slower, footsie based experience with homogenized characters and more limited tools.
@@Nyagro Tekken 8 is not as complex with heat mechanics, and mash friendly gameplay. Tekken is only "complex" due to so many moves you have to learn through knowledge checks. Movement isn't even as difficult as Tekken players like to claim it is.
KoF XV and UNI2 maybe?
@@theopulentone1650 Tekken is "mash friendly" since at least T3 my dude.
Movement is by far the most complex thing in Tekken in any FG. And don't get me wrong, I'm not fdefending that game but your claims are a bit bs.
Also, my point was about keeping legacy mechanics in the game so you entirely missed the mark on my comment as well. Tekken is one of the games with still most of the core and legacy mechanics intact to this day.
@@theuzi8516 I was thinking uni2 also but don't have a lot of experience.
Fuck modern controls. Fuck lowering the skill gap. Fuck turning street fighter into Smash Bros. Technical skill is what makes fighting games exciting
Execution is fine when it's for something like, an optimal BnB that gives like an extra 5% damage or whatever. The thing about 3rd Strike is. If you can't parry consistently. You're not really actually playing Third Strike. That's a BAD execution barrier.
You're not required to parry to play the game and if you desire to play at higher levels, you need to work to get there.
This is why it's a more difficult mechanic. It's actually not as hard as you think it is. You can have a good experience just being able to parry fireballs for example, which is very easy to do.
Being able to parry full supers and multi-hitting moves, it's all about a rhythm that you can practice. It's not like there is some hidden technique for it. You can set a training dummy to parry every move. It really comes down to knowing timing and rhythms which you can replicate by watching the training dummy do it. That's how I learned.
I was parrying wakeup supers in less than a month's time after I bought the game for 360. The mechanic can be difficult but there is a lot of easy uses you can do with it that doesn't require a ton of execution. You can play this game by simply blocking, being able to parry isn't a win condition. Matches aren't won based on the parry ability.
The clip shown was the only instance where the mechanic really shined through like this. These moments don't grow on trees.
So World Tour ... if they at least removed modern
I played the hell out of borh sf2 sf2 hyper in the snea to me back then those games had infinite single player content just loved playing vs tha ai as well as humans.
I think requiring a certain level of execution is good but, the busier i get the more i understand why people want fighting games to be more accessible. I only have so much time to practice and lab, so many series make me end up saying "welp back to Smash" after like 1 week. Thankfully I'm doing better at sticking with SF6 and Strive
I guess the solution is to have better training moves so that people can build their skills faster.
I haven’t watched it yet, but I agree with the title 😂 anyways I generally think dragon ball fighterz was perfect balance of easy to pick up and hard to master.
New games are hard but in a different way. The execution is looser but the length of the execution is drawn out. They also remove things like partitioning in new street fighters.
Striking a balance is hard. Sf4 is prolly the the most hype sf to watch but its damn frustrating to play. Kinda same with 3. I heard even some pros admitted 4 was not all that fun to play
🙏
YSB did this same parry 😂, it's on TH-cam
The Metroidvania you mentioned was already made. It's called Mortal Kombat Mythologies. It was just poorly executed.
I'm hesitating making this comment, but please know it doesn't come as a disparagement. I've noticed a lot of videos coming out where the equalization or the way it's recorded makes it sound like the person is almost whispering in your ear. As someone with trauma history it's kind of unnerving and I was unable to watch the whole video. Just wanted to let you know. I agree with your thesis btw and that's why I clicked 👍
I disagree
I disagree to your disagreement
@@TerryHintz300ATK nuh uh
@@TerryHintz300ATKi agree with your disagreement of the disagreement
I agree
I think there is a balance there. There is some level of streamlining that can be done that I think is good liking making sure your basic combos work across the entire cast, there not being too many 1 frame links, potentially streamline some more esoteric mechanics... don't be +R Chipp is what Im saying. That said I definitely think modern controls and autocombos are the wrong way to go. The reason I as a noob bounced off DBFZ was that after I got a hit I just mashed through a cutscene and the game didnt really teach me how to combo.
I definitely agree that singleplayer should be a good tutorial, fighting games losing their arcade esoterica is mostly a good thing.
Third point is just... maybe fighting games shouldn't be designed for people who don't like fighting games. Maybe they shouldn't be designed for people who don't want to learn them. Because they are a skill based hobby. Now, I think fighting games should be designed in a way to make the beginner into an intermediate player as smoothly and quickly as possible, but then the real climb should start.
Modern is almost perfect. They just need to adjust the scaling more or remove auto combos.
It’s great that modern keeps motion inputs, it made transitioning to classic mode very approachable.
People who are interested in reaching their full potential will naturally start using proper inputs and be tempted to switch.
While the air parries and walk up 720s does address your point about high execution, you do know that the last, most hyped, most talked about part of Hayao's performance did not require high execution. In fact it was a simple 1 button press. It only required a simple knowledge of that normal is airborn and Ken's attack will whiff. So that part actually contradicts your point.
What makes the last part work is the mental stack. Hayao's ability to retain that information (Hugo's normal) that has long been ignored by the general viewer and if not even all pro including 3s god - JWong.
Nothing to do with execution.
Yes, the interaction BEFORE it needed high execution. That helped BUILD the drama/hype. But the finality itself? Nope. Just a simple timed 1 button press.
Regarding your point in general... I have nothing against high execution. It does add to the mystique of not only the game but the pro themselves. It is like watching a wide receiver make a one handed catch. It is amazing and entertaining because you can't believe some one can do it especially at that critical high-pressure moment.
But let us not forget that high execution is only one aspect. There are other aspects that can make a game entertaining to play and watch. SF1 has one of the hardest execution of all SF games. But no one wants to play or watch that game.
Sucks that mvc2 collection has one button super and specials… even offline for tournaments
Executions came from making the arcade game hard so you can waste more quarters learning how to play, it was a business model had nothing to do with anything else, the strategy should be the focus of fighting games, not wasting hours of your life learning executions
That's bizarre because that clip had nothing to do with execution and everything to do with a read and game knowledge. James is a very dense as usual.
The skill ceiling of American Third Strike is so low. It is insane to me that this Hugo combo has blown up so much. Its nothing unusual to see something like that from any B ranked player on Fightcade or the Japanese weekly tournies on livestream. SF5/6 really rotted zoomers minds
its not cause the combo's difficult, its cause getting consecutive air parries, landing with the right jump-in and do the right combo for the knockdown is pretty impressive in this setting or any setting for this matter. if you're so great and the ceilling is so low, why didn't THE asian makoto didn't get top 6. why didn't YOU win?
Have you not seen moment 37 done by people in their room. None of them are going to place in top fgc brackets, not even close. Skill ceiling also means having the mental to do that with pressure. A lot of people can't.
@@chadturner614 I have done "moment 37" plenty of times. Its not that hard. Its something you HAVE to learn to be able to survive any serious tournament filled with Chuns.
@MyNamesNotLars1 Cool, I can do it as well. I'm mid at best. What daigo and hayao did can technically be done by a lot of people. I also know a bunch of people who can do it too.
@MyNamesNotLars1 I do not know if you place high in those tournaments, or if your just doing online tournaments. It's different live and I know that from personal experience, but maybe we are just built different. I can't argue without knowing more, but from my perspective there are alot of choke artists in tournaments.
Yeah sf6 sucks.
just clicking to leave a dislike on the title alone because it's flagrantly wrong and a major reason that normal people don't play fighting games outside of buying mortal Kombat doing story mode and never touching the game again
go back to fucking CoD then
Skill issue
Most people dont play fighting games because they want to come home and turn their brain off to relax. There is a reason why call of duty and sports games are the number one sellers every single year.
This is why I ultimately think we are witnessing the slow decline of the genre.